So firstly I would like to warn people that this is a rant, just so you know.

I have been playing CSM for about 4-5years now and I really love Chaos in all its form (have a huge army of CSM, Daemons and converted IG as renegades). I was really thrilled when I heard about the new CSM codex and models that would come since the updates to Necrons and Dark Eldar have been IMO a true upgrade. So at Saturday I peeked at gws site and I must say that I was disappointed.

To start with is the Heldrake, does anyone else get the feeling that it looks more like a children's toy (like those old plastic dinosaur toys) and the way its "missing" a tail makes it feel strangely cut of (like someone just chopped of the end). Then this just might be me but the exhaust vent at the rear really looks like something else ("don't" add a hand at each side) and its kinda disturbing in a bad way.

The aspiring champion is just sick, 20$ for a SINGLE "chosen" model. This guy isn't even a lord, just a single marine....

Havocs even thou the models are ancient and look like gak (compared to the newer models gw has made) they are now finecast so they wont get an upgrade, and they don't come with any upgrade choices so good luck fitting a squad with only missile launchers, auto cannons, etc.

The Warpsmith and Dark Apostle models I do like but why cant they come in a box with upgrades, the whole thing with chaos is change and these guys come as "standard template 1A", no upgrades, no marks and in finecast so they are more fragile and (this just might be me) harder to sculpt and make "personal".

Forgefiend/Maulerfiend look ok but seems like to much of an ripoff from nids and since they compete (not 100% on this one) with HW slots, paying 66$for one will be abit much.

I personally liked the old Raptors better since they felt more unique and these new ones are more like "Chaos Assault marines" but the new models look really good and got no real complaint about them.

Mutilators are ok but in this shooty edition I think they will fall behind a bit.

Chaos is all about change, the dark gods, looting and pillaging, the warp, etc. So I feel gw really do an immense fail when they don't allow their models to come with a good amount of upgrades. It makes me sad to see all this wasted potential to make CSM truly live up to their name.
Sure you can do a lot of convesrions yourself and its a big part of the hobby (have my entire Renegade army to show) but I get the feeling gw could contribute more to this and now it more seem like a giant leap back.
All new models have not been released yet and things might change but atm it feel like gw really let me down on the new CSM models.

Well that's my opinion on the new CSM releases so far. So hope I didn't drag on to much and thanks for reading. And aswell I like to know what you think. Am I just crazy, do you agree, and so on.

Well, I mainly agree with your rant.
A big fail is to make all those shiny new models like Helldrake, Hellbrute, and Fiends heavy support. They'll compete with Obliterators and Vindicators among others.

I have to say I was not excited one bit by the look of any of the new models. Most looked bad to me. The Dark Apostle just made me cringe.

After looking at the new chaos stuff, I didn't have much of a problem with anything except the heldrake. I couldn't quite place it but it just looked ugly. Then I read the OP post and he hit it dead on. It looks like one of those old dinosaur toys for kids.

It's hideous.

There's also the standard sadness that comes with seeing more finecast, but that goes without saying.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I mainly agree with your rant.
A big fail is to make all those shiny new models like Helldrake, Hellbrute, and Fiends heavy support. They'll compete with Obliterators and Vindicators among others.

Well, the Heldrake for one will be FA (if the White Dwarf Battle-Report is reliable)... a slot not usually used a lot by Chaos Marines (though it might change with Warptalons, depending on how good they are).

The dark apostle is the worst model I've seen in years.

That Warpsmith however...... *drools*

I have to say I was not excited one bit by the look of any of the new models. Most looked bad to me. The Dark Apostle just made me cringe.

but that was the second Dark Apostol model chaos got this edition the first one [mace chosen from Vengance] is the bomb.

A big fail is to make all those shiny new models like Helldrake, Hellbrute, and Fiends heavy support. They'll compete with Obliterators and Vindicators among others.

and havocks who may in the future gain skyfire. melee dude <possible skyfire . Even auto cannon havocks are ok against some flyers. >

I see what they were going for with the heldrake, but they definitely dropped the ball with its look...I am hoping that forgeworld makes a better looking model soon...I do like the forgefiend models though, and the warpsmith is nice as well...I have a friend who plays a techmarine in our deathwatch rp and he wants to eventually use the warpsmith as his avatar when he inevitably dables too deeply in the warp (his character forsakes everything in order to expand his knowledge

I personally really don't like the new raptor / warp talon models- they just seem to have too much going on, and are way to expensive per model.

I agree with Falix that they don't have the same character as the old Raptor models. The old tall jump packs were cool, these new ones just look like cardboard tubes with spikes, and cost 10 dollars more then scourges despite being less pretty.

Also did anybody notice that the Battleforce got a price hike, and now comes with LESS models? Now it costs 120 dollars, and you get 5 less chaos space marines, and 3 Bikes instead of Khorne Berzerkers. Its not even new sculpts, just the same old Chaos Marines except less of them... that is a huge disappointment.

My biggest issue is how hard GW is pushing "undivided" all of the new releases have been undivided, while Noise Marines and Thousand Suns have been relegated to "upgrade packs". I know that "spiky marines" are the image GW is trying to push, but kits like the new Raptors have too many spikes now to easily be able to convert Slaaneshi, Tzeentch, or Nurgle.

But whatever, Chaos space marines are still probably one of the most convertible armies in the game, so creative people will still bring amazingly cool armies to the table.

the raptors would actualy make nice csm , if the cost of making an army out of them wouldnt be so high .

EC pack is so lol 150$ to get 10 sonic blasters . and you will need 30 for under 2k .

I agree that the Helldrake is missing a tail. I've seen Photoshops of it with a tail and it looks way better with one. I love the new Raptors, even if they lose their unique aesthetic to a degree. They're cheaper than the metal/Finecast ones too! I like the Slaughterfiend but I don't like that it competes for HS slots, which are full up in my Iron Warriors. I like the Warpsmith a lot, and I think once I put the skull helmet from the CSM sprue on the Dark Apostle he'll look great. The only thing I don't like about that model is the head. I dig the Aspiring Champion and might get him (he could be a lord honestly, he looks awesome) and I think the Maulers look awful. All in all I'm happy Chaos is finally getting some love, even if some of the models are polarizing.

 akaean wrote:


Also did anybody notice that the Battleforce got a price hike, and now comes with LESS models? Now it costs 120 dollars, and you get 5 less chaos space marines, and 3 Bikes instead of Khorne Berzerkers. Its not even new sculpts, just the same old Chaos Marines except less of them... that is a huge disappointment.

Well, find a discounter who still has the old box. Here in the UK, Wayland Games still has it. Someone in the US will too.

And I'd expect similar "downgrades" in the value of the battleforces for future armies such as Eldar or Tau (who, right now, have one of the best boxes).

Makumba wrote:
the raptors would actualy make nice csm , if the cost of making an army out of them wouldnt be so high .

EC pack is so lol 150$ to get 10 sonic blasters . and you will need 30 for under 2k .

As I play noise marines thats not quite right. Its weird. They have both an "Emperor's Children Upgrade Pack" Which includes some heads, a power sword, and one of each sonic weapon. but they ALSO have a "Noise Marine Sonic Weapons"- which comes with something like 4-5 Sonic Blasters, and a Blast Master.

And I actually am kind of glad that they are resin now, as the metal bits were a pain in the ass, and it will be nice to not worry as much about pinning, even if I run the risk of miscasts, etc.

Oh well, it would have been nice to actually get a pack of newly crafted noise marines though, the Emperor's Children Lord model is so cool looking with his screaming organ back pack, It would be cool to see some professionally crafted slaaneshi marines.

Am I the only person that loves the Helldrake?

I'm going to buy a small CSM allies force if only to use the Helldrake.

 Ugavine wrote:
Am I the only person that loves the Helldrake?

I'm going to buy a small CSM allies force if only to use the Helldrake.

No.

Having seen it on GD, I quite like it.

The Dark Apostle had so much potential :/

I agree with the op. GW failed hard and i won't spend any money on the current release. DV was great but what we get now sucks badly.

I think the Helldrake has potential.

A minor conversion, or simply building an alternate model is always an option.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think the Helldrake has potential.

A minor conversion, or simply building an alternate model is always an option.

I think the hell talon fighter is 100x nicer model, and they cost about the same. I'll just have to put a tow hook on it for the vector strikes...

I don't agree at all. I'm perfectly happy with the new stuff, I just wish they could've left the current range alone and added these things into the mix, instead of replacing them.

I don't understand why they got rid of the old raptors. Now, all raptors will look really detailed and fancy,as opposed to just being "normal, plain jane". It's like if GW released a vanguard veteran plastic kit and got rid of the assault marine kit.

Wow, so much ranting here. For one, the $20 champion isn't strictly a champion; use him as a chosen, a lord, a sorcerer, or whatever. For the wanted upgrades the OP wanted, they'd have to make it plastic but clearly they like Failcast resin more.

Personally, I love the Warp Talon/ Raptor models because they're spiky enough to look unified with the Dark Vengeance spiky's and I hated the old Raptors. Such crappy modelling and poses. There is more creativity in plastics, as shown because of the ability to personalize and convert your own models.

As far as the website is concerned, I'm really surprised no one is saying anything about the "mutilators". They're just obliterators with funky wannabe-chaosy arms. And while we're on the subject, kinda, what's up with all the specialty troops being listed as elites and why are plague marines more expensive for less models?

 Azza007 wrote:
The Dark Apostle just made me cringe.

"Towels here! Get your soap-on-a-rope and towels here!"

 DeffDred wrote:

 Azza007 wrote:
The Dark Apostle just made me cringe.

"Towels here! Get your soap-on-a-rope and towels here!"

Dang, now that I see it again its pretty funny.

Of course it doesn't compare with the old TV antenna chaplain(I think it was that BA special character dude too)

And then we have this abomination, the only model the sculpters have personally apologized for. Don't tempt fate.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:

 Azza007 wrote:
The Dark Apostle just made me cringe.

"Towels here! Get your soap-on-a-rope and towels here!"

Dang, now that I see it again its pretty funny.

Of course it doesn't compare with the old TV antenna chaplain(I think it was that BA special character dude too)

And then we have this abomination, the only model the sculpters have personally apologized for. Don't tempt fate.

...they sell him at a FLGS. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't tempted to buy him simply for the sake it being so...um...skully.

 Decio wrote:
Wow, so much ranting here. For one, the $20 champion isn't strictly a champion; use him as a chosen, a lord, a sorcerer, or whatever. For the wanted upgrades the OP wanted, they'd have to make it plastic but clearly they like Failcast resin more.

Personally, I love the Warp Talon/ Raptor models because they're spiky enough to look unified with the Dark Vengeance spiky's and I hated the old Raptors. Such crappy modelling and poses. There is more creativity in plastics, as shown because of the ability to personalize and convert your own models.

$20 for a model that doesn't look any better than the DV models? And those will probably end up around $5 bucks individually from online resellers?

And sorry but the old raptors are extremely nice models. If only they didn't fall over so much. One of the few sculpts I wish was redone in failcast.

I'm just excited we finally get plastic Raptors; my metal Raptor unit has never stood up properly. I like the new jump pack shape, too, the old ones never really looked quite right in the context of how Raptors were supposed to be using millennia-old Space Marine gear, the new jump packs look like someone took prototypes of the Space Marine jump packs and twisted them a bit to reflect Warp exposure.
The Heldrake is a little odd, I'd have preferred a plastic sculpt of FW's Hell Talon, but it's better than nothing and does kind of work in the context of Chaos' other animalistic daemon-vehicles. I'm not particularly impressed with any of the new Finecast models, but I suppose they could see some use as HQ units; the lack of customizability in Finecast models is an issue, but it's just a little more work to personalize. I accidentally bought a WFB Khorne Champion for my Tzeentchian WoC army once, a little green stuff, a head swap, and a few spare parts and you'd have never known he was originally Khorne-aligned.
My only real beef is the loss of the old Thousand Sons box, the upgrade pack doesn't contain nearly as many parts and it's now more expensive to get to a squad; though the fact that the upgrades are in the Elites section of the website suggest to me that it isn't going to be as big of a problem when the new Codex comes out as the fact that every Troops unit in my army is Thousand Sons right now...

^ Just a matter of personal preference; I just don't like the helmets or the thing holding them up (oversized grass or wind flow or whatever it is) And the fact that they were expensive AND finecast.

But I see your point about the $20 champ and the cost. Though I love the DV models; that's why I got 'em.

 Decio wrote:
^ Just a matter of personal preference; I just don't like the helmets or the thing holding them up (oversized grass or wind flow or whatever it is) And the fact that they were expensive AND finecast.

But I see your point about the $20 champ and the cost. Though I love the DV models; that's why I got 'em.

Don't get me wrong I think he is a good looking model too, just not sure he is worth the price of the terminator lord with all those nice options. Then again they probably raised that price too.

I did my raptors up with smoke/flames coming up off the base and I love them.

^ Your raptors sound good. Just the ones on the GW website have tufts that look like weird rocks or smoke.

IIRC the Terminator Lord is still 22.25 and is more awesome in terms of gear; but GW did intend for the new Champ to be just a champion; the Termie Lord gets more cool stuff because he is a lord, and thus more important for the army. GW wouldn't like making a plastic centerpiece model HQ with only one set of gear.

I actually liked everything but the flyer. Not that it matters. I wont be buying any of these models. I'll wait for Dark Angels and thats it. Since its clear that GW is intent on pricing everyone out but the super rich for the product I'll call it quits with one army and move on to other systems. Shame too since I really like most of their models and background for 40k and Fantasy.

Makumba wrote:
the raptors would actualy make nice csm , if the cost of making an army out of them wouldnt be so high .

EC pack is so lol 150$ to get 10 sonic blasters . and you will need 30 for under 2k .

150 will get you 80 sonic blasters actually


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I love most of the new models in the Dark Vengeance set (barring the Hellbrute), but I agree for the most part with your synopsis of the new line of models.

For 20 bucks, I would rather buy a squad of chosen off Ebay and use one guy from there as an aspiring champion, than spend 20 dollars on that single model.

I do like the new upgrade packs that remove our dependance on metal models for Thousand Sons, but I don't like the pricing. To get a squad of ten of them now costs nearly as much as a land raider.

I dislike the flyer, for sure. Its aesthetic does not match any established chaos armies at all. It looks like a child's toy. I will be scratchbuilding my own fliers to use in its place.

The new demonengines are not horrible looking, and they fit the theme, but I personally don't like how they look so front-end heavy. I will likely avoid them until I know how balanced the model actually is. And I'll be buying them secondhand, as I can't get over the price of them either.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...The old ones never really looked quite right in the context of how Raptors were supposed to be using millennia-old Space Marine gear, the new jump packs look like someone took prototypes of the Space Marine jump packs and twisted them a bit to reflect Warp exposure.

The previous pack design is based on artwork from Rogue Trader. The newer ones are also based on RT artwork but are more heavily influenced by the Horus Heresy artwork.

I think the new models look stunning.
I've only just got into CSM in the last few months before I got wind of the changes coming with the 6th Edition and was slightly put off by some of the older models; particularly the raptors and bikes. Well the rapor replacements look amazing and I can't wait to get my hand on a few more things.
However, what has stunned me was the price of the new Codex - wow, will we get it in paper back?

Prepare for little rant - GW need a rethink before they price too many kids away from the GW brand. - End of Rant.

Sadly GW isn't after the little man's money, but the money of the rich and spoiled. They even say so in the introduction to the 6th rulebook. They'll keep raising prices and appeal to no one but the upper middle class. That can also be seen in their marketing for digital products. It'll all for the iPad, not iPhone and definitely not for android platforms.
GW see themselves as a luxury hobby brand which you should feel privileged to be a part of. Their prices will never drop, only rise.

One Click Bundle: Buy everything you see here and save 0%! No GW. I'll order everything individually just to make you work a little harder. DANCE FOR ME PUPPETS, DANCE.

Helldrake: Neat idea, but where's the grimdark? I might get one if I feel like doing a lot of greenstuff work with it, but as it is meh?

Forge/Maulerfiend: Again, where's the grimdark? The Maulerfiend looks like it has potential if you greenstuff it, but the Forgefiend looks like they took the critiques of the Biovore models and turned it up to 11. On the upside, I think we finally have someone to date the Wet Nurse.

Raptors: I like 'em. The odd zig-zagging patterns in the armor look like they tried to give an impression of mutating or patched armor, but it doesn't work very well. They at least look like something I could believe is Chaos, even if they didn't quite get it right.

Aspiring Champion: I thought this model was great in the DV set when it had a bolter instead of a knife. I still think it looks good, but I'd probably rather buy a second DV box than this.

Warpsmith: I like this, and the casting errors in the Finecast may actually blend well with the miniature so that you don't need to get several replacements. This guy seems to be the only solid winner out of the bunch.

Dark Apostle: I like it, although the parchment ribbons are a little too thick. It probably would've looked better with less of a paper-tornado thing going on. I don't think I'll have a solid opinion on it until I see it in person... right now the front and back shots look pretty solid, but the 360 view shows some weaknesses.

Oblits/Maulers: Same crappy ass oblit models that I didn't like five years ago, now with the added bonus of being more expensive and Finecast. Go sit on a Thunderhawk GW.

Havocs: More expensive, harder to convert, Finecast. Buy a dev squad box and add some spiky bits. Pass.

Sorcerer: A nice sculpt, but probably not worth the money. Pretty much a very predictable model.

Upgrade Packs: So you were hoping your favorite army was going to get some nice plastics? Nope. Get some repackaged upgrade packs that'll be more expensive. If they're still metal then at least the quality hasn't gone down, although they were all old sculpts and not all that great. I probably won't be adding any more Thousand Sons to the 20 or so that I have already.

Battleforce: $152.50 for $120. Not a bad deal. I actually pulled out a calculator to double check my total, was surprised the retail discount was that high.

Lansirill wrote:


Battleforce: $152.50 for $120. Not a bad deal. I actually pulled out a calculator to double check my total, was surprised the retail discount was that high.

Well, it is a good box. But a huge chunk of "discount" also comes from the fact that they no longer do a "3-bikes-in-one-box" anymore outside the Battleforce.

Honestly, the only thing I am buying is the Hellbrute/Forgefiend. I will buy one of them. But anything "marine" related is about as far away from tempting as can be. With the Heresy models coming out from FW, and the prices of GW now so insane that they make FW a good deal there is nothing keeping me from just buying the much better looking marines from FW. And with all the amazing new marine stuff coming out? I don't even like playing marines, I haven't bought a marine dex since templars. And I am way excited for the heresy stuff FW is putting out. I will probably blow entire pay checks on that stuff.

In comparison, the GW chaos release just falls flat. It is a good thing that I can buy the sonic weaponry from GW though, ill need it since the FW stuff doesn't come with weapons and I am totally going all slaanesh with their point reduction.

 IcedAnimals wrote:
Honestly, the only thing I am buying is the Hellbrute/Forgefiend...

I will buy one of them...

But anything "marine" related is about as far away from tempting as can be...

there is nothing keeping me from just buying the much better looking marines from FW...

I don't even like playing marines...

And I am way excited for the heresy stuff...

I will probably blow entire pay checks on that stuff...

It is a good thing that I can buy the sonic weaponry from GW though, ill need it...

and I am totally going all slaanesh with their point reduction.

Whaaa?

I just can't believe they passed up an opportunity to re-sculpt the basic Chaos Marine, and finally bring them out of the 80s.

I think I'll be converting up some Chaos Ogryn as my Obliterators, Blight Drones for the Helldrake, and Deathguard conversion packs for my infantry.

The old chaos marines are fine. There aren't any glaring errors on them that I can see

I love daemon engines but I hate the Forgemauler. As a rule, the daemon engines shouldn't have eyes that aren't lightbulbs. Yes, it looks like a dinosaur toy. Too organic.
The new CSM aesthetic doesn't look good to me. There's nowhere for your eye to rest on most of them and there's nothing to focus on. And random mouths and tentacles coming out of unlikely places doesn't look good to me, it looks silly.

Where is the hellbrute boxed set? I picked up one from a friend in hopes there would be a boxes set coming out with the different options. I didn't want three DV hellbrutes roaming the table with the same setups and all with the same pose! Or was the hellbrute in the DV set an IC? It was my understanding that it was to replace the current dreadnaught.... Perhaps more will be revealed...

Currently, the only Hellbrute model is the DV model.

We can assume GW will release a Hellbrute model in the future. Actual date unknown and could be a while.

The forgefiend may be forgiven if the hades autocannons or whatever are amazing. The warpsmith is fine, but there are two issues with it. 1, it isn't a plastic kit, and 2, it's pretty much evul techmarine model, not really a difference to me. Though the tentacles constantly remind me of doc-ock, which gives him some win points with me. Curse you Spider-Emperor!

But Warpsmiths are evil Techmarines

Although I'll agree that more Warping could be used on the model. Fleshy mechanandrites and servo arms for one.

Ahh well, green stuff is your friend

is it just me or does this new edition of models for CSM look like what the daemons should have been ?

the big mechy dragon, big mechy dog dude....they really look more at home along side a soul grinder then in a CSM army.

i'm not sure where i sit in the like department, i want to see them face to face, but i am hopefull about the raptors as i would love a squad in my army, and they look okay in the pics. Only a hands on will tell if they will fit the look and feel of my army

Edit: also warpsmith...still has nothing on Fabius Bile, best model ever!

Well, Chaos did need more Chaos.

I imagine when the Daemon codex rolls around there will be loads of beautiful new models to oogle over then too.

new plastic greater daemons, winged daemons on flying bases, etc...

I agree, in everyday.

Games Workshop, you are dissipoint.

 blood reaper wrote:
I agree, in everyday.

Games Workshop, you are dissipoint.

Sigh. Could you at least post with a grammatically correct sentence if you are going to fill the thread with pointless hate-spam?

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
The old chaos marines are fine. There aren't any glaring errors on them that I can see

They are utterly bland and uninspired, suffer from cast issues at the legs and have no resemblence to the excelent DV Chosen or even the Raptors.
After the DV Chosen i am no longer willing to spend any money and time on such an inferior product.

Oh look. Another hobby snob.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Oh look. Another hobby snob.

Oh look, another GW apologist. Is whiteknighting fun these days?

I don't take their side. But I am tired of people like you bitching.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
I don't take their side. But I am tired of people like you bitching.

Your problem, not mine. Still, if you can't see why people complain about GW selling ugly and out of date ( not to mention the bad cast quality ) csm miniatures for the same price as the far superior
Spacewolfs ( more detailed, better poses, better quality ), then i seriously can't help you.

I've had dozens of CSM boxes and the cast quality was never "bad". Sounds like your problem, not mine.

Maybe you could learn to sculpt, and then you wouldn't have to complain so much.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
I've had dozens of CSM boxes and the cast quality was never "bad". Sounds like your problem, not mine.

Maybe you could learn to sculpt, and then you wouldn't have to complain so much.

Why should i learn to sculpt just to correct the shoddy quality of some GW miniatures? It's not like i have to buy their stuff.

Exactly. Apparently you'd rather complain about something, rather than just make the choice not to buy something based on your personal opinion?

You say they are "shoddy", but you lack the artistic talent to do better? Most people will agree that they are not "shoddy" and are quite the opposite, in fact.

If you had said "I would love to have some CSM models like the chosen that are in DV set," it sounds a lot better than "they are totally bland and uninspired".

You are not the supreme judge and dictator on what makes a model interesting and inspired, so come down from your high horse.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Exactly. Apparently you'd rather complain about something, rather than just make the choice not to buy something based on your personal opinion?

You say they are "shoddy", but you lack the artistic talent to do better? Most people will agree that they are not "shoddy" and are quite the opposite, in fact.

If you had said "I would love to have some CSM models like the chosen that are in DV set," it sounds a lot better than "they are totally bland and uninspired".

You are not the supreme judge and dictator on what makes a model interesting and inspired, so come down from your high horse.

I stated my opinion. If you, for some unfathomable reason, think that they are the best thing since sliced bread then have fun with them.
Regarding the tired old falacy that one has to be able to do something ( writing, sculpting, building cars...) in order to criticise the work of others, do i realy have to explain to you why this line of reasoning is flawed? I think not. Of course, even you ( as an apparent fan of the current csms ) should notice that the current csms are of inferior detail compared to some of the more recent work ( Grey Hunters squad, Death company, Grey Knights, Dark Eldar ). I would even argue that this is not just my personal opinion but a rather obvious fact.
As you should have also noticed, the shoddy in my previous reply was related to the cast issues experienced by me and others ( especialy at the leg trim ), which can ruin the entire look of the miniature ( unless one wishes to spend extra time and effort to correct something that shouldn't even exist in the first place ).

I will therefore remain on my high horse, still quite confident in my opinion that the current csms do, in fact, suck badly ( lack of detail, poses, cast quality ), compared to what GW can produce.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

You are not the supreme judge and dictator on what makes a model interesting and inspired, so come down from your high horse.

Nor are you. It's called 'opinion' and 'perspective'.

I play CSM, and I agree that the basic guys need an update. They're not terrible, but come on! They could look so much better, and the Grey Knight/Space Wolf comment is right. As for the old Raptors... yeah, they looked terrible, purely out of age. I like the new Raptors, although Warp Talons look like Power Rangers or something. Mutilators look plain stupid. Their derpy faces totally ruin any cool factor they may have had, and their claws are both too big and too numerous. I mean, seriously, they're in Terminator armour and they have more spikes and claws than actual armour, yet they aren't mutated into a proper predatorial daemon-beast or anything. Just really, really, really, really spiky Terminators, so spiky they just look silly. As for the Dark Apostle... dat face. He just looks completely stupid. Meanwhile, the DV version looks fantastic.



Where are the mutlipart plastic kits for the Chosen from DV? :'c They're so pretty and I want themmm. As for the 'fiends; I really like the more mechanical one, which I believe is the Forgefiend. The other just looks like some kind of cyborg Tyranid with a sarcastic look on its face. I'll be using the Forgefiend head if I ever want a Maulerfiend. Finally; I like the Heldrake! It could be better, but it's not bad.

Where are the new Berserkers, Thousand Sons, Plague Marines, Noise Marines? The upgrade kits are pathetic, and all the cult!Marine kits are ancient. Come on, all the other Space Marines get their specialists in plastic, why not CSMs? They made this out to be a fantastic update where they'd fix all the problems and make everything pretty, but so far, all we've seen is some really shifty stuff (upgrade packs) and a couple of new models thrown at us. :'c

EDIT: Uh... wow. Just noticed; the 'fiends? Yeah, they have six limbs. Their rear legs are hooved while their front legs are clawed. They also have tails, and a curved snout-spike, and overlapping plates, and...

I agree that GW set the bar pretty high with the DV set. I had my hopes up for some cool stuff like the spacewolves got and other armies have received. I am glad I fashioned my own Havocs beforehand. I feel a little let down, but only because I got my hopes and expectations up based on the DV set. Until the codex comes out, I am trying to keep an open mind.

The only thing I can think of regarding the Chosen vs. Regular CSMs is that they are an elite, their status with the chaos gods has granted them the right to wear fancy armor and be all around cooler than their ground level counterparts. No doubt that all regular CSM models envy the DV Chosen models' armor

I am just mainly disappointed that a hellbrute boxed set was not part of the main release. A lot of the models released are basically specialized dreads. I liked the look of everything before. Putting everything in finecast is not a great idea. GW must be trying to liken its line to the FW products by doing everything finecast and then charging the same price. I am a good painter, but the finecast (to me) is not for the average painter. With my painting skills, I do not fully utilize the finecast's value. The regular plastic models seem to show off an average painter's skills better that a finecast product.

Am I the only one that when looking at the dark apostle think it looks more like a normal space marine hero then anything that should be in chaos :0 just can't shake it...

I think the apostle model looks cool. Light/pastey toned skin would make him fit better in the Chaos army.

He just looks like a great big toilet paper despenser to me.

 Ugavine wrote:
Am I the only person that loves the Helldrake?

I'm going to buy a small CSM allies force if only to use the Helldrake.

You are not alone, my warped friend. Chaos is the only army that can say it has a dragon. A goddamned dragon. I'm gonna appreciate that

 wowsmash wrote:
He just looks like a great big toilet paper despenser to me.

Or a towel and soap-on-a-rope salesman. And he pawns off spikey, half eaten donuts as Chaos Icons.

How does a traitor have that much purity seals anyway. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

Well, they arn't exactly purity seals. More like sermons on the Dark Gods.

Those are impurity seals. Because he's so impure. He was voted most likely to be impure by his squad mates. He has impure underoos and bed sheets.

He is the most impure astartes in the world. He doesn't always act impure, but when he does, he makes impurity seals out of baby unicorn hide...

 wowsmash wrote:
He just looks like a great big toilet paper despenser to me.

Toilet paper aside, I don't understand why he has two trophy racks from a rhino on his head.

The dragon is a move towards fantasy just as Necrons were, I hate the trend and want the universe more grimdark not fantasy. The model itself is ok but as a toy not as a flying chaos abomination. The rest is average, I don't care anyway have my metal plague marines and am happy, not buying anything new unless it's multi part plastic GUO or new plastic Nurgle DP.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Oh look. Another hobby snob.

It's not being a snob (and I don't think you're an apologist, either) it's just that the Chaos Marines are old and it shows. Some old models really hit the nail on the head, have loads of character and hold up well to the test of time. The Chaos Marines aren't one of those models. They're boring, lack diversity, and are downright silly in some respects.

Wishlist:
New demon engines
New casts for cult units//basic guys
Hell Talon
Chosen boxed set
Plastic dread.

What we get?
Well, our existing demon engine is a defiler, and it looks beast like only in the sense it has 6 legs and claws
New ones? Metal carnifexes
No new casts AT ALL except raptors (think this is the first time I have ever seen this in a release tbh)
No chosen
No hellbrute/dread.

The warpsmith was nice.

Hopefully the second wave will prove better... We need up to date troop choices.

OH! And no cult boxed set.


So for the coolest stuff? By DV, then continue to cry in the corner because GW still hates your army's face


Von Chogg

but chaos did get chosen and dreads

 Von Chogg wrote:

New casts for cult units//basic guys

I don't think this will happen for any army with basic guys already in plastic.

Necrons didn't get new Warriors. Tau will not get new Firewarriors. Eldar will not get new Guardians or DA. GW isn't at a point where they start from scratch on existing multi-part plastic kits. Need to come back in about 10 years or so I would guess.

I don't think the models are bad.

And as far as the Dark Apostle goes, he is made of finecast, just hack his head off and replace it with something more to ones taste if you don't like it. He doesn't look like he would be overly difficult to convert

I have a few issues.

GW made the Dark Vengeance kit and the models have weird ways of being put together. Why? So you can't mod them easily. Then they make models out of fine cast which makes them even harder to mod.

The cut throat of all this is that fine cast is costing them less to make a model so that they can max out their profit.

Another complaint is that I don't have a back pack or back to carry around hard cover books. I also don't want to spend $50 on a codex when a soft cover at $20 is much better for me. The $75 BRB is a scam. I don't need all the extra stuff so that you feel better about selling me an over priced book.

So the only thing I will be buying for CSM is going to be the Codex. The rule changes have made the game once again boring. All we have to look forward to is cheesy shooting lists because assaulting in this new game has to many variables to make you fail a charge or lose the guys you want in the fight.

Good luck GW keeping people interested in the game or able to afford the game in the first place.

MJThurston wrote:
I have a few issues.

GW made the Dark Vengeance kit and the models have weird ways of being put together. Why? So you can't mod them easily. Then they make models out of fine cast which makes them even harder to mod.

The cut throat of all this is that fine cast is costing them less to make a model so that they can max out their profit.

Another complaint is that I don't have a back pack or back to carry around hard cover books. I also don't want to spend $50 on a codex when a soft cover at $20 is much better for me. The $75 BRB is a scam. I don't need all the extra stuff so that you feel better about selling me an over priced book.

So the only thing I will be buying for CSM is going to be the Codex. The rule changes have made the game once again boring. All we have to look forward to is cheesy shooting lists because assaulting in this new game has to many variables to make you fail a charge or lose the guys you want in the fight.

Good luck GW keeping people interested in the game or able to afford the game in the first place.

You obviously are not happy with the game in its current state, so why are you even bothering to buy the codex? Your just still going to be angry and unhappy, spend the $50 on something that would give you fits of nerd rage.

The Fiend is an absolutely ugly model. However, we get three Obliterators for 41€. Compare this to the metal blister that contained one Oblit for about 20€. Hardly believable or am I wrong?

BrotherVord wrote:
I see what they were going for with the heldrake, but they definitely dropped the ball with its look...

Forge world already makes the Hellblade. Just get a couple of those instead.

Generally I like the new minis. I like lots of options at each level of my force and I don't have a complaint at all about having to choose between the various fiends, havocs, vindicators and whatever else. I don't want just one army. I want things to be unique and different from one game to the next, especially when playing chaos. So having all those different options appeals totally to me. Even buying at least one of the helldrakes as while they are not perfect models they are interesting enough that they intrigue me. I really like the new raptor figures as they look like chaos marines in heresy era armors with the big crazy turbo fan looking jump packs they had back then. They are also cheaper than the Mark IV forgeworld assault marines I was planning to buy some of to fill that role in my nurgle army (khorne force has the most recent version raptors and my slaanesh army has seraphim converted with old metal 'nid gargoyle wings for raptors).

I do agree $20 for what amounts to a unit sergeant in the Aspiring Champion is just nuts, though. Blah...

My chaos armies are already full of plenty of minis ranging back almost as long as I have been playing 40k, picking up and adding more units and alternative figures as time goes by. My khorne and nurgle armies also have a number of forgeworled pieces too. Working on adding some more forgeworld love to Slaaneshi army as well. Love that slannesh greater daemon lord figure that forge world makes. I will add in the parts from Dark Vengance and the new chaos minis to my existing forces to make them even more varied and chaos looking.

Skriker

I'm REALLY annoyed that GW aren't making the chosen as a boxed set or the helbrute, he'll their not even making the god damn cultists! Heresy, ironic heresy (do you see how ironic it is)

The Dark Apostle wrote:
I'm REALLY annoyed that GW aren't making the chosen as a boxed set or the helbrute, he'll their not even making the god damn cultists! Heresy, ironic heresy (do you see how ironic it is)

Still plenty of time for those items, or similar versions, to come out. They just aren't coming out in the first wave. Besides for things like cultists it is just as much fun to combine some fantays kits with the different IG plastics. I am also certain that there will be a new hellbrute/dreadnought kit released at some point as well. The concept here is *patience*. Relax and we'll see what ends up showing up down the pike. Right now it makes sense for GW to drive sales to the Dark Vengance box itself. More stuff will be available before too long. Took a while for the dethcopta to be released in its own box from the AoBR set. This is no different. Today cultist ranks can be filled on ebay by buying up other people's Dark Vengance minis, and also using minis from the necromunda line. They are are perfect. Nothing screams cultist better than Cawdor/Redemptionist figures, but any of them except maybe the Van Saars have an irregular enough look to be cultists, and you can easily scare up some chaos icons out on ebay to glue here and there.

Also a fully available line of dreadnoughts on Forge world for the most well known CSM chapters is still available as well, or Khorne blood slaughterers, or the Decimator daemon engine. Not to mention the maulerfiend and forge fiend coming out which can fill a similar combat roll. There will be plenty of toys to play with until they finally release those other kits.

Skriker

Chosen can be made with the normal CSM kit, Cultists are any IG kit, and the Hellbrute is a Dreadnought.

Specific kits may follow in the future(probably for Cultists and the Hellbrute) but they arn't needed for the release.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Chosen can be made with the normal CSM kit, Cultists are any IG kit, and the Hellbrute is a Dreadnought.

Specific kits may follow in the future(probably for Cultists and the Hellbrute) but they arn't needed for the release.

The current csm kit is too sucky to make good Chosen (unless you somehow convert the hell out of them ) and normal IG make bad cultists ( although the expensive FW upgrade is nice ).

 KingDeath wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Chosen can be made with the normal CSM kit, Cultists are any IG kit, and the Hellbrute is a Dreadnought.

Specific kits may follow in the future(probably for Cultists and the Hellbrute) but they arn't needed for the release.

The current csm kit is too sucky to make good Chosen (unless you somehow convert the hell out of them ) and normal IG make bad cultists ( although the expensive FW upgrade is nice ).

A sucky kit and a bad kit are still kits.

And Vendettas can only be made with a FW upgrade kit, or scratch building something of your own.

Whelp,
I started playing Chaos Space Marines in '97. They got me into the hobby, specifically, that Matt Gibbons Khorne Berzerker Terminator image in the codex that used to be printed on a leaflet in every box (along with art of all the other armies).

So, I like the new Chosen, in they style of their armour. Nice and Baroque.

Apart from that, I'm as disappointed as all the other people ranting. I know that if I ever rebuild my army, I'll have to hunt for the 2nd ed metal CSM on ebay, and work from there, and the rest of the new stuff is Warcraft-villain style. Just too... wacky.

I am waiting to see the rulebook before I post my Chaos army up for sale... Maybe the new rules will give me inspiration to continue playing them because the new models are definitely not doing it for me. I am definatley working on patience for the hellbrute multi part kit... Hopefully they don't mess that one up...

strengthofthedragon2 wrote:
I am waiting to see the rulebook before I post my Chaos army up for sale... Maybe the new rules will give me inspiration to continue playing them because the new models are definitely not doing it for me. I am definatley working on patience for the hellbrute multi part kit... Hopefully they don't mess that one up...

I am confused by this position. If you already have the army, who cares what the minis look like that are coming out? You don't need them. I definitely understand the rules side of the equation, though. I sold off my daemonhunters army for different reasons, but when the new GK codex came out shortly thereafter I realized I would have sold it off anyway because my army, as I played it, no longer existed. :(

Ulimately I was planning to not buy anything from the new mini line, but I do see promise in a number of the kits, and some I just generally like the look of. I've never allowed "unit usefulness" dictate what minis I buy and model like some others in this thread. I actually enjoy using units that others consider useless for variety and also to show that they aren't as useless as some folks claim. All depends what you want to use them for.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

strengthofthedragon2 wrote:
I am waiting to see the rulebook before I post my Chaos army up for sale... Maybe the new rules will give me inspiration to continue playing them because the new models are definitely not doing it for me. I am definatley working on patience for the hellbrute multi part kit... Hopefully they don't mess that one up...

I am confused by this position. If you already have the army, who cares what the minis look like that are coming out? You don't need them. I definitely understand the rules side of the equation, though. I sold off my daemonhunters army for different reasons, but when the new GK codex came out shortly thereafter I realized I would have sold it off anyway because my army, as I played it, no longer existed. :(

Ulimately I was planning to not buy anything from the new mini line, but I do see promise in a number of the kits, and some I just generally like the look of. I've never allowed "unit usefulness" dictate what minis I buy and model like some others in this thread. I actually enjoy using units that others consider useless for variety and also to show that they aren't as useless as some folks claim. All depends what you want to use them for.

Skriker

I like to run a lash based army with defilers and plague marines with Epidemius (daemon ally, occasionally). Its rumored the new codex will not have lash. I have recently picked up orks due to CSM becoming stale. I have also been wanting a dread that I can somewhat rely on. I guess I had high hopes for the models, but I will wait to see what the rules are for the new models and possibly proxy them with a model I like. I understand though, that some models you just have to play (which is why I am picking up some SW cavalry). Like you said, my biggest issue is that the army I like to play may not exist and I am not liking the models enough to spend the $50+ on them just to "try them out". Who knows, maybe they will grow on me... A lot of the opinions on here (mine included) are reactions to the new models. Maybe in time they will (somehow) become more appealing...

To the person a few pages back (I think it was on this thread) who was getting stressed about how Chaos were turning into Tyranids...



Well, they did say they based the new models on 1st and 2nd ed imagery!

I flipped the heldrake's wings around in photoshop to see if it looked any better.



ehhhh? maybe with a bit of work and a tail or something.

Alternatively, just loot a fantasy dragon/manitcore/chimera/griffon.

strengthofthedragon2 wrote:
I like to run a lash based army with defilers and plague marines with Epidemius (daemon ally, occasionally). Its rumored the new codex will not have lash. I have recently picked up orks due to CSM becoming stale. I have also been wanting a dread that I can somewhat rely on. I guess I had high hopes for the models, but I will wait to see what the rules are for the new models and possibly proxy them with a model I like. I understand though, that some models you just have to play (which is why I am picking up some SW cavalry). Like you said, my biggest issue is that the army I like to play may not exist and I am not liking the models enough to spend the $50+ on them just to "try them out". Who knows, maybe they will grow on me... A lot of the opinions on here (mine included) are reactions to the new models. Maybe in time they will (somehow) become more appealing...

Definitely can't force people to like any models. It would definitely be lousy for you if your army is no longer viable. GW has gotten better at such problems with new codex versions, but it hasn't gone away completely. They do seem to have figured out that people like it when new units are added, but not when old units suddenly vanish for no adequately explained reason which leaves some people screwed. I'm most concerned about my large chosen unit in my Khorne army and it still fitting within the bounds of the new chosen unit rules. Have to see how that pans out for me...

Skriker

 Captain Roderick wrote:
To the person a few pages back (I think it was on this thread) who was getting stressed about how Chaos were turning into Tyranids...



Well, they did say they based the new models on 1st and 2nd ed imagery!

I'd like it if they looked more chaotic and less like spikey dudes.

I was wanting CSM allies with my Daemons, but I'll stick to just fleshing out my Tzeentch/Slaanesh army and forget it as I was wanting TSONS and Noise Marines, but the upgrade kits + marines = ludicrous cost. Rather get more pink horrors. Then again, if CD all lose EW, I might just quit them too.

Been wanting to look into Tau for awhile....

 McGibs wrote:
I flipped the heldrake's wings around in photoshop to see if it looked any better.



ehhhh? maybe with a bit of work and a tail or something.

Alternatively, just loot a fantasy dragon/manitcore/chimera/griffon.

Dang, that looks kinda cool.

 McGibs wrote:
I flipped the heldrake's wings around in photoshop to see if it looked any better.



ehhhh? maybe with a bit of work and a tail or something.

Alternatively, just loot a fantasy dragon/manitcore/chimera/griffon.

Or the wings could be flipped like this

 ChiliPowderKeg wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
I flipped the heldrake's wings around in photoshop to see if it looked any better.



ehhhh? maybe with a bit of work and a tail or something.

Alternatively, just loot a fantasy dragon/manitcore/chimera/griffon.

Or the wings could be flipped like this

Now that actually looks nice, with the normal GW model the lack of a tail bothers me.

 Skriker wrote:

strengthofthedragon2 wrote:
I like to run a lash based army with defilers and plague marines with Epidemius (daemon ally, occasionally). Its rumored the new codex will not have lash. I have recently picked up orks due to CSM becoming stale. I have also been wanting a dread that I can somewhat rely on. I guess I had high hopes for the models, but I will wait to see what the rules are for the new models and possibly proxy them with a model I like. I understand though, that some models you just have to play (which is why I am picking up some SW cavalry). Like you said, my biggest issue is that the army I like to play may not exist and I am not liking the models enough to spend the $50+ on them just to "try them out". Who knows, maybe they will grow on me... A lot of the opinions on here (mine included) are reactions to the new models. Maybe in time they will (somehow) become more appealing...

Definitely can't force people to like any models. It would definitely be lousy for you if your army is no longer viable. GW has gotten better at such problems with new codex versions, but it hasn't gone away completely. They do seem to have figured out that people like it when new units are added, but not when old units suddenly vanish for no adequately explained reason which leaves some people screwed. I'm most concerned about my large chosen unit in my Khorne army and it still fitting within the bounds of the new chosen unit rules. Have to see how that pans out for me...

Skriker

I glanced over the codex and it seems that my love of defilers may come to an end. Can't say the new forgefiend is any better points-wise, it seems like a specialized dreadnought.... but perhaps two of those with the new tech priest tending to them would be ok... now if I can just get rid of these defiler models Overall,as I suspected, by looking at the stats of the new models it kind of eased my dislike of them. I still won't be running out and buying every new model... but maybe in the far future I could see getting a couple of the forgefiends.

I completely agree with you dislike the new models and the pricing is just outrageous. I dislike the upgrade spur idea for the cult marines more than anything.

strengthofthedragon2 wrote:
I glanced over the codex and it seems that my love of defilers may come to an end. Can't say the new forgefiend is any better points-wise, it seems like a specialized dreadnought.... but perhaps two of those with the new tech priest tending to them would be ok... now if I can just get rid of these defiler models Overall,as I suspected, by looking at the stats of the new models it kind of eased my dislike of them. I still won't be running out and buying every new model... but maybe in the far future I could see getting a couple of the forgefiends.

I'll still use my defilers regardless, if they fit the theme I want for my force on the table top. I've never played to "cost effectiveness" in 40k in the past and don't intend to start now. If I want a defiler or two on the table, that is what I will have. My forge world plague hulk has been seeing more table time than my baseline defilers of late, but that is because I am just smitten with the model. It is too awesome to not pull off the shelf regularly. Still not sure how I feel about the forge and mauler fiends. Not sure I see a place for the maulers in my forces, since I already have a number of daemon engine type things that excel at the close in roll. Might just make a couple different forgefiends instead. I plan to spread some of the new stuff around my existing armies, but also am planning to paint up some of my DV and other new chaos stuff in an entirely new chapter's colors. Still trying to figure out what that force will be. I have CSM forces for Khorne,Nurgle and Slaanesh already.

Skriker