So I've seen the pairing of a prime with carnifex squads for shenanigans. Can a prime join other monstrous creatures as well. In particular, I'm looking to join a prime to my tervignon troop selection which is outflanking due to tyrant hive commander. Is this legal, or is the prime only allowed to join a carnifex squad because it is a squad?

Per the IC rules, an IC can't join a unit which always consists of a single model; this is the same as 5th.

Carnifexes can be purchased in squads, though, so they're okay. As you guessed.

I thought I saw somewhere in the faq that the tyranid monstrous creatures were Characters now, and it says specifically that you can create supers squads of independent characters. So even though the single monstrous creatures are characters, they still can't be joined?

Independent Characters can join each other because the IC rules say they can. Characters are completely different and being one has no bearing on joinability.

Blast, brilliant idea foiled again by pesky rules.

The farthest stretch you can do with this is have a Tyranid Prime join a Hive Tyrant or Swarmlord. Yes, the Hive Tyrant is a singular monstrous creature and cannot be joined by ICs. You then buy a Tyrant Guard for the Hive Tyrant. With the way shieldwall works, the Hive Tyrant joins the Guard, not the other way around, so the Tyranid Prime is free to join them as well, as the Guard are not MCs.

Have fun with that. :-)

Except the Swarmlord/Hive Tyrant is by definition not always a single model unit, so can be joined by ICs even without Guard.

The Prime can join a brood of Carnifexen.

rigeld2 wrote:
Except the Swarmlord/Hive Tyrant is by definition not always a single model unit, so can be joined by ICs even without Guard.

Actually they are single. The entry for them reads Composition 1 Hive Tyrant, or 1 Unique (SL)

The exception is that the IC is joining the guard as is the Tyrant.

If you really want t o get technical, all IC's are units that only consist of one model. However, ICs have permission to join other ICs.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Except the Swarmlord/Hive Tyrant is by definition not always a single model unit, so can be joined by ICs even without Guard.

Actually they are single. The entry for them reads Composition 1 Hive Tyrant, or 1 Unique (SL)

The exception is that the IC is joining the guard as is the Tyrant.

Except they aren't always single - because they can join Tyrant Guard.

How many Hive Tyrants can you buy in a squad of Hive Tyrants?

 Mannahnin wrote:
How many Hive Tyrants can you buy in a squad of Hive Tyrants?

That would be relevant if that's what the IC rule cared about.

While that is a generally true statement, it does not affect the way the rule is applied.

The HT is always a unit of 1 model. You will never see a unit of 3 HT ( although that would be awesome). An IC cannot join a unit that always consists of 1 model.

The Guard's rule that the HT can join them doesnt change the fact that the HT is still a unit of 1. Nor does it make the HT an IC. So neither of these will overrule the IC rules that an IC cannot join a unit that always consists of a single model.

Fragile wrote:
While that is a generally true statement, it does not affect the way the rule is applied.

The HT is always a unit of 1 model. You will never see a unit of 3 HT ( although that would be awesome). An IC cannot join a unit that always consists of 1 model.

The Guard's rule that the HT can join them doesnt change the fact that the HT is still a unit of 1. Nor does it make the HT an IC. So neither of these will overrule the IC rules that an IC cannot join a unit that always consists of a single model.

Is the Hive Tyrant always a unit of one model? Yes?

So why must those two Guard over there stay in coherency with him? They're obviously different units according to you...

Perhaps you should read the Shieldwall rule, it will explain it for you.

For the same reason a unit with an attached IC must stay in coherency.

The HT/Swarmlord is *always* a unit of one model.

You may also buy a second unit, of Tyrant guard.

The HT/SL *may* join them at deployment, just like an IC joins a tac squad at deployment

But it is still a unit of one model, which is attaching to another unit. Just like an IC does.

The only reason and IC can join an IC, is because they have a specific rule allowing it. There is no such rule for the HT.


The TGuard is not a retinue, it is simply a unit that is unlocked when you take an HT. Like an honor guard.

The Hive Tyrant joins the Tyrant Guard as if he were an IC. He's a unit which is always purchased as a unit of one model, and has a rule allowing him to join another unit. Similarly to the IC rule, except unlike ICs, he doesn't have a specific rule saying an IC can join him.

However, a Tyranid Prime can join a Tyrant Guard unit because that is not a unit that only ever consists of one model.

So you could theoretically end up with a Prime and a Tyrant joined together if the Prime joined while there were Tyrant Guard in the unit, that were later killed off.

 Grey Templar wrote:
However, a Tyranid Prime can join a Tyrant Guard unit because that is not a unit that only ever consists of one model.

So you could theoretically end up with a Prime and a Tyrant joined together if the Prime joined while there were Tyrant Guard in the unit, that were later killed off.

Exactly, but without the Guard there to do it, a Prime couldn't join a HT otherwise.

Fragile wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
However, a Tyranid Prime can join a Tyrant Guard unit because that is not a unit that only ever consists of one model.

So you could theoretically end up with a Prime and a Tyrant joined together if the Prime joined while there were Tyrant Guard in the unit, that were later killed off.

Exactly, but without the Guard there to do it, a Prime couldn't join a HT otherwise.

Correct.

BRB page 39 wrote:units that always consist of a single model

That's what IC's cannot join. A Hive Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model - we know this because sometimes it can have Tyrant Guard attached to it.

I may not be making my argument clearly because I'm going through withdrawl from painkillers right now, but this has been hashed out many times before in YMDC.

rigeld2 wrote:

BRB page 39 wrote:units that always consist of a single model

That's what IC's cannot join. A Hive Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model - we know this because sometimes it can have Tyrant Guard attached to it.

I may not be making my argument clearly because I'm going through withdrawl from painkillers right now, but this has been hashed out many times before in YMDC.

rigeld, you have it backwards. Tyrant Guard don't attach to the Hive Tyrant, the Hive Tyrant attaches to the Tyrant Guard. I did e-mail this question to the FAQ team, so hopefully they respond (not that it matters much here).

Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

BRB page 39 wrote:units that always consist of a single model

That's what IC's cannot join. A Hive Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model - we know this because sometimes it can have Tyrant Guard attached to it.

I may not be making my argument clearly because I'm going through withdrawl from painkillers right now, but this has been hashed out many times before in YMDC.

rigeld, you have it backwards. Tyrant Guard don't attach to the Hive Tyrant, the Hive Tyrant attaches to the Tyrant Guard. I did e-mail this question to the FAQ team, so hopefully they respond (not that it matters much here).

Irrelevant who attaches to who. It's not always a unit that consists of a single model because sometimes it's in a unit with Tyrant Guard.

At which point it is a normal member of a unit of Tyrant Guard.

coredump wrote:
But it is still a unit of one model, which is attaching to another unit. Just like an IC does.

An independent character joined to another unit is no longer a unit of one model in its own right, but is a member of the larger unit.

And frankly? Without that piece of the argument, without the notion that an IC joined to a unit is still a unit of one model, your argument falls apart completely.

Happyjew wrote:
At which point it is a normal member of a unit of Tyrant Guard.

...Which obliterates your argument.

rigeld2 wrote:
Irrelevant who attaches to who. It's not always a unit that consists of a single model because sometimes it's in a unit with Tyrant Guard.

Unfotunatly that is not true. They are 2 units that are always deployed together. It is why the unit is worth 2 VP.
One of the units is always a unit of 1 (the Tyrant) and the other unit can consist of 1-3 models (Guard). You can attach an IC to the Guard, but not the Tyrant.

Just because there is an exception in the Codex on how the guard unit attaches to the Tyrant via a modified IC rule does not make it one unit OR make the Tyrant an IC for any other unit other than the Tyrant Guard. If the guard were an upgrade then you would be right, but they are not.

If you really want to get to the heart of the matter you just have to ask a simple question. Tyrant gets shot and you want a Prime that is attached to the Guard to take the hit. What is your LOS! roll?

 Gloomfang wrote:
Just because there is an exception in the Codex on how the guard unit attaches to the Tyrant via a modified IC rule does not make it one unit OR make the Tyrant an IC for any other unit other than the Tyrant Guard. If the guard were an upgrade then you would be right, but they are not.

The Tyrant is in a unit.
There is more than one member of the unit.
Therefore the Tyrant is not always a unit that consists of a single model.

If you really want to get to the heart of the matter you just have to ask a simple question. Tyrant gets shot and you want a Prime that is attached to the Guard to take the hit. What is your LOS! roll?

2+.

 Gloomfang wrote:
It is why the unit is worth 2 VP.

The 2 VP thing is a function of acting like an IC, and is an exception to the normal rules.

 Gloomfang wrote:
Just because there is an exception in the Codex on how the guard unit attaches to the Tyrant via a modified IC rule does not make it one unit...

Yes, it does. Because that's exactly what the referenced IC rule accomplishes. You aren't "two units, with lots of exceptions", you're "one unit, with few exceptions".

 Gloomfang wrote:
If you really want to get to the heart of the matter you just have to ask a simple question. Tyrant gets shot and you want a Prime that is attached to the Guard to take the hit. What is your LOS! roll?

I would say 4+, but it's kind of debateable. GW has never made entirely clear just how much of an IC the Tyrant is, ruling two different ways in the FAQ.

EDIT: I'm amused that rigeld2 and I, arguing the same side of the discussion, gave different answers to your "heart of the matter" question. Obviously we don't think it gets to the heart of it at all!

So, here's my "heart of the matter" question: is the Hive Tyrant ever considered a model in a unit of more than one model? If "yes", then the condition "always a unit of one model" fails.

GW really should just Errata the Tyrant to have the IC special rule. Maybe say it loses it if it gains Wings.

Pyrian wrote:

EDIT: I'm amused that rigeld2 and I, arguing the same side of the discussion, gave different answers to your "heart of the matter" question. Obviously we don't think it gets to the heart of it at all!

Page 35 – Tyrant Guard, Shieldwall.
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to read “A
single Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) may join a unit
of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it had the Independent Character
special rule and, while part of the unit, is treated as such for
the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision
Shots and Precision Strikes”.

Since it's treated as an IC for LoS! rolls, it gets a 2+.

No the issue is that people are thinking that the Tyrant has some special rule that lets it act as an IC, and it doesn't.

The Tyrant Guard have a rule (Shieldwall) that allows a Tyrant to join them and the Guard treats it like it is an IC that can never leave the unit. You attach the Tyrant to the Guard, not the other way around.

*EDIT* From rereading the rule it looks like Shieldwall rule does grant IC status to the Tyrant so the Prime will get to do a LOS! on a 2+.

If you do not take Tyrant Guard then you have no Shieldwall rule. Without the Shieldwall rule the Tyrant is always a unit of one and an IC can not attach to it.

 Gloomfang wrote:
Without the Shieldwall rule the Tyrant is always a unit of one and an IC can not attach to it.

So there are times when the Tyrant is not a unit of one?

Ah, good catch on the FAQ amendment, I'd missed that.

 Gloomfang wrote:
No the issue is that people are thinking that the Tyrant has some special rule that lets it act as an IC, and it doesn't.

...

Without the Shieldwall rule the Tyrant is always a unit of one and an IC can not attach to it.

I think the issue is rather that we have very different notions of the word "always". For example, I don't think a post-list-build answer to what counts under "always" can possibly be correct, because if you choose to take a single Carnifex in your list then that Carnifex would then "always" be a unit of one model. But since you could have taken a unit of more than one Carnifex, then it's not always a single model - that's the most basic use of the distiction.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Without the Shieldwall rule the Tyrant is always a unit of one and an IC can not attach to it.

So there are times when the Tyrant is not a unit of one?

This. The Tyrant is, at points, NOT a unit of one. Therefore an IC can join at any time.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Without the Shieldwall rule the Tyrant is always a unit of one and an IC can not attach to it.

So there are times when the Tyrant is not a unit of one?

No it is always a unit of one. It can be joined to a unit of Tyrant Guard DESPITE being a unit of one becasue of the Shieldwall rule.

Once it is attached to the Guard it becomes (for all intents and purposes) and IC. The IC rule then allows other ICs to join together dispite the fact they are always a unit of one.

There are special rules that allow you to join other units dispite the fact it is a unit of one, but it never stops being a unit of one.

So the Hive Tyrant model and three Tyrant Guard models are a unit of one model?

The Tyrant/SL never counts as a full IC. The Tyrant/SL may join a unit of Tyrant Guard and takes LoS saves like an IC. How ever for all other intents and purposes the Tyrant/SL never count as an IC and are then onwards treated as part of the Unit of TG. As a result a IC may join the Unit of TG, in which the Tyrant/SL is already and forever bound to. Said Tyrant/SL may not leave TG unit during the battle as they do not count as an IC for any other reason other than initially joining the Unit of TG. and LoS.

A Tyrant /SL without the a purchased Unit of TG can never be joined by IC's as they always count as one model for the purposes of the battle, not always as in the Meme forever alone.

No they are a unit of Tyrant Guard.

On a related note, can an IC join Mordrak? According to the Ghost Knights rules, if they are bought he is an upgraded character of the unit until such a time that the Ghost Knights are destroyed, at which point he reverts to being a single model unit.

Yes, you can join an IC to Mordrak. His Ghost Knights are actually an option he has in his entry.

 DeathReaper wrote:
So the Hive Tyrant model and three Tyrant Guard models are a unit of one model?

They are considered a unit of 1 Tyrant and a unit of 3 Guards.

Once you hit pre-depoyment you have permission to join ICs to units. The Shieldwall rule then lets the Tyrant attach to the guards like an IC. Then you have two units that IS TREATED like a single unit. (but is actuly not a single unit). If it was not for the part of Shieldwall that forbids the Tyrant from leaving you could seperate them into two units again. Becasue they are two units they count as 2 VP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And a question for all the "Primes can attach" crowd.

So I can attach the PoM to a Flyrant? All the same rules apply from your point of view.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Just because there is an exception in the Codex on how the guard unit attaches to the Tyrant via a modified IC rule does not make it one unit OR make the Tyrant an IC for any other unit other than the Tyrant Guard. If the guard were an upgrade then you would be right, but they are not.

The Tyrant is in a unit.
There is more than one member of the unit.
Therefore the Tyrant is not always a unit that consists of a single model.

This is untrue. The fact that a HT can join another unit is irrelevant to the rule at question. The rule states.... "Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot, however, join vehicle squadrons (see page 77) or units that always consist of a single model (such as most vehicles and Monstrous Creatures)."

How do you tell how many models a unit will have ?. pg 85 Tyranid Codex. "Composition: This section will show the number and Type of models that make up a basic unit, before any upgrades."

Hive Tyrant Pg 86. "Composition: 1 Hive Tyrant. "

A Prime cannot join with a HT because the HT is always just 1 Tyrant. Nothing in the any rule changes this. The only way a Prime can join a Tyrant is for the Prime to join the Guard unit of 1-3 and the Tyrant to join via the Shieldwall rule, (which grants the HT the ability to join.)

If you really want to get to the heart of the matter you just have to ask a simple question. Tyrant gets shot and you want a Prime that is attached to the Guard to take the hit. What is your LOS! roll?

2+.

Well the FAQ says that while the Tyrant is joined to the Tyrand Guard its treated as a IC for the purposes of LoS, Challanges, and Precision hits.

Page 35 – Tyrant Guard, Shieldwall.
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to read “A
single Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) may join a unit
of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it had the Independent Character
special rule and, while part of the unit, is treated as such for
the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision
Shots and Precision Strikes”.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well the FAQ says that while the Tyrant is joined to the Tyrand Guard its treated as a IC for all purposes

Page 35 – Tyrant Guard, Shieldwall.
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to read “A
single Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) may join a unit
of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it had the Independent Character
special rule and, while part of the unit, is treated as such for
the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision
Shots and Precision Strikes”.

Not for all purposes... it very clearly limits those purposes to those listed.

 Gloomfang wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So the Hive Tyrant model and three Tyrant Guard models are a unit of one model?

They are considered a unit of 1 Tyrant and a unit of 3 Guards.

Got any actual rules to back thus up?

Because from the way the BRB reads, they are a single unit.

Unless you are saying you can target the Hive Tyrant separate from the Tyrant Guard...

 Gloomfang wrote:

And a question for all the "Primes can attach" crowd.

So I can attach the PoM to a Flyrant? All the same rules apply from your point of view.

Of course they can, as an IC can join a normal Hive Tyrant, why would they not be able to join one that had wings?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well the FAQ says that while the Tyrant is joined to the Tyrand Guard its treated as a IC for all purposes

Page 35 – Tyrant Guard, Shieldwall.
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to read “A
single Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) may join a unit
of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it had the Independent Character
special rule and, while part of the unit, is treated as such for
the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision
Shots and Precision Strikes”.

Actually it does not say it is an IC for all purposes. Only LOS!, Challenges, Precision Shots, and Precision Strikes.

As such it would not count for the Heroic Morale ability. (Assuming that it ever came up).

Bad wording there on my part

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Just because there is an exception in the Codex on how the guard unit attaches to the Tyrant via a modified IC rule does not make it one unit OR make the Tyrant an IC for any other unit other than the Tyrant Guard. If the guard were an upgrade then you would be right, but they are not.

The Tyrant is in a unit.
There is more than one member of the unit.
Therefore the Tyrant is not always a unit that consists of a single model.

This is untrue. The fact that a HT can join another unit is irrelevant to the rule at question. The rule states.... "Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot, however, join vehicle squadrons (see page 77) or units that always consist of a single model (such as most vehicles and Monstrous Creatures)."

How do you tell how many models a unit will have ?. pg 85 Tyranid Codex. "Composition: This section will show the number and Type of models that make up a basic unit, before any upgrades."

Hive Tyrant Pg 86. "Composition: 1 Hive Tyrant. "

A Prime cannot join with a HT because the HT is always just 1 Tyrant. Nothing in the any rule changes this. The only way a Prime can join a Tyrant is for the Prime to join the Guard unit of 1-3 and the Tyrant to join via the Shieldwall rule, (which grants the HT the ability to join.)

So Mordrak cannot be joined either? His unit composition is 1 (Unique).

The Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model, just like Mordrak isn't, just like a Carnifex isn't.

rigeld2 wrote:


The Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model, just like Mordrak isn't, just like a Carnifex isn't.

My understanding is that Mordrak can buy additional models as part of his unit (like a Retinue). If the Tyrant could by Guards in the same way you would be totaly right as the unit would have more than one model.

Tyrant Guard are not MCs. There should be no debate if any IC can join them or not. The Tyrant Guard do not have to be deployed with the Hive Tyrant. You can therefore buy a Hive Tyrant, 3 Tyrant Guard, and a Prime and only squad the Tyrant Guard and Prime if you so desire.

 Gloomfang wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:


The Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model, just like Mordrak isn't, just like a Carnifex isn't.

My understanding is that Mordrak can buy additional models as part of his unit (like a Retinue). If the Tyrant could by Guards in the same way you would be totaly right as the unit would have more than one model.

According to the GK codex, that's not 100% correct.
Mordraks unit composition doesn't change.
If you include him, you may include a unit of Ghost Knights - Mordrak and the Ghost Knights start as one unit (page 40) but the unit composition of either does not include the other (which is the point I was addressing - context please).

The Ghost Knights aren't wargear. They aren't an upgrade. They're a special rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandruff wrote:
Tyrant Guard are not MCs. There should be no debate if any IC can join them or not. The Tyrant Guard do not have to be deployed with the Hive Tyrant. You can therefore buy a Hive Tyrant, 3 Tyrant Guard, and a Prime and only squad the Tyrant Guard and Prime if you so desire.

Good job at not addressing a single thing being discussed in the thread.

Funnily enough, ive never realised that a tyrant does not have to join a unit of guard -_-

Might have to take a unit for my flyrant now lol.

The rules seem to conflict on this one every time a new factor comes into it.
While he is treated like an IC via shieldwall, it is only for the reasons stated.
Joining is not among those reasons.

However (just my opinion) you can simply throw the prime into the hive guard unit, then add in the tyrant to get past most of the issues, as the hives are a basic unit that have no restrictions on who joins them.

 Jackal wrote:

However (just my opinion) you can simply throw the prime into the hive guard unit, then add in the tyrant to get past most of the issues, as the hives are a basic unit that have no restrictions on who joins them.

That's not the issue.
The issue is if you can join an IC to a Tyrant without even taking the Guard in the first place.

To those opposed:

Tyrant, Prime, 2 Guard. CREEEED ambushes and drops a template causing 4 wounds. Both ICs LOS! off to the Guards leaving just the Tyrant and Prime.

What now?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Without the Shieldwall rule the Tyrant is always a unit of one and an IC can not attach to it.

So there are times when the Tyrant is not a unit of one?

No once he joins a unit of tyrant guard the model is a part of a tyrant guard unit not a hive tyrant unit.
A hive tyrant unit is always one model so no joining, a hive guard unit isn't so can be joined.
The hive tyrant model being able to join a specific unit doesn't change the fact that as a unit he's always one model.

Edited to make more sense (damn you english).

 HoverBoy wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Without the Shieldwall rule the Tyrant is always a unit of one and an IC can not attach to it.

So there are times when the Tyrant is not a unit of one?

Yes the times when he's part of a unit of tyrant guard.
A hive tyrant unit is always one model so no joining, a hive guard unit isn't so can be joined.
The hive tyrant model being able to join a specific unit doesn't change the fact that by himself he's a one model unit.

Right, so Mordrak is as well. Gotcha.

rigeld2 wrote:

 HoverBoy wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Without the Shieldwall rule the Tyrant is always a unit of one and an IC can not attach to it.

So there are times when the Tyrant is not a unit of one?

Yes the times when he's part of a unit of tyrant guard.
A hive tyrant unit is always one model so no joining, a hive guard unit isn't so can be joined.
The hive tyrant model being able to join a specific unit doesn't change the fact that by himself he's a one model unit.

Right, so Mordrak is as well. Gotcha.

Um yes if mordark purchases his ghost bros he can have other IC join him easy.
Wait what's your point.

Ok, i think you kinda sum it up for yourself though.

Only an IC can join another IC or a unit normally.
An IC cant join a unit of 1.

While on his own, a tyrant is a unit of 1.
When with tyrant guards, its a tyrant guard unit instead.

So no, a Prime could not join a tyrant.
Not unless the tyrant gained the IC rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

To those opposed:

Tyrant, Prime, 2 Guard. CREEEED ambushes and drops a template causing 4 wounds. Both ICs LOS! off to the Guards leaving just the Tyrant and Prime.

What now?

As the rules govening ICs and units consisting of one model only covers joining a unit the Prime can stay with the Tyrant. If the Prime choses to leave the Tyrant he can not rejoin it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also have to retract my "Two units statement" after rereading the Sheildwall rules at lunch. The rule says that the Tyrant joins the Guard. That would make it one unit of Tyrant Guard and Tyrant Guard can always consist of more than one model.

Not so sure about the Prime not rejoining the Tyrant. Shieldwall states "while part of the unit" (unit being the Tyrant Guard). I am not sure when the unit of Guard stops being a unit of Guard (if killing off the actual Guard makes it not a unit of Tyrant Guard).

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Just because there is an exception in the Codex on how the guard unit attaches to the Tyrant via a modified IC rule does not make it one unit OR make the Tyrant an IC for any other unit other than the Tyrant Guard. If the guard were an upgrade then you would be right, but they are not.

The Tyrant is in a unit.
There is more than one member of the unit.
Therefore the Tyrant is not always a unit that consists of a single model.

This is untrue. The fact that a HT can join another unit is irrelevant to the rule at question. The rule states.... "Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot, however, join vehicle squadrons (see page 77) or units that always consist of a single model (such as most vehicles and Monstrous Creatures)."

How do you tell how many models a unit will have ?. pg 85 Tyranid Codex. "Composition: This section will show the number and Type of models that make up a basic unit, before any upgrades."

Hive Tyrant Pg 86. "Composition: 1 Hive Tyrant. "

A Prime cannot join with a HT because the HT is always just 1 Tyrant. Nothing in the any rule changes this. The only way a Prime can join a Tyrant is for the Prime to join the Guard unit of 1-3 and the Tyrant to join via the Shieldwall rule, (which grants the HT the ability to join.)

So Mordrak cannot be joined either? His unit composition is 1 (Unique).

The Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model, just like Mordrak isn't, just like a Carnifex isn't.

I am unaware of who Mordrak is or what Codex he is from, however that really doesnt affect the HT / IC issue.

To those opposed:

Tyrant, Prime, 2 Guard. CREEEED ambushes and drops a template causing 4 wounds. Both ICs LOS! off to the Guards leaving just the Tyrant and Prime.

What now?

What do you mean, what now? The tyrant and the prime are still a unit if that is what you are asking, nothing in the rule prevents that or breaks the unit by killing the two guards.

Greyknight codex

The hive tyrant is a member of a unit containing 1 - 4 models, so can ne joined by an IC at any time. Same as just because you havent bought 2 carnifex doesnt mean you cannot add a prime to a single carnifex

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Greyknight codex

The hive tyrant is a member of a unit containing 1 - 4 models, so can ne joined by an IC at any time. Same as just because you havent bought 2 carnifex doesnt mean you cannot add a prime to a single carnifex

Sorry but you're wrong on this one, the tyrant and his HG are not a single unit (both the codex and FAQ make this clear). The tyrant is a single model (non-independent) character that can never join or be joined following the normal rules, then there's a unit that has a codex specific rule that allows him to join them via the specific>general rule, that unit is tyrant guard and it has a squad size of 1-2 making it perfectly legal for IC to join and leave it at any time. And besides once the tyrant joins them they don't become a Hive Tyrant unit, they're a Tyrant Guard unit with a tyrant joined to them.

OTOH a carnifex brood has a squad size of 1-3 and as such isn't a unit that's always one model, making it joinable by IC.

So they're not a single unit?
So I can move a Tyrant out of cogency of his Guard? They're two units after all.
You can shoot the Tyrant specifically? He's his own unit ya know.
When he rolls Look Out Sir!, where can the wounds be reallocated to?

The Tyrant can be a member of a unit. Therefore it is not always a single model unit. Therefore an IC can join a solo Tyrant.

Check the FAQ for all your answers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
The Tyrant can be a member of a unit. Therefore it is not always a single model unit. Therefore an IC can join a solo Tyrant.

Um no.
See all IC are one model units by you'r logic they could always join each other, but if that broke no rule then why did GW made a specific rule specifying they can to trump the no joining single models rule.

 HoverBoy wrote:
Check the FAQ for all your answers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
The Tyrant can be a member of a unit. Therefore it is not always a single model unit. Therefore an IC can join a solo Tyrant.

Um no.
See all IC are one model units by you'r logic they could always join each other, but if that broke no rule then why did GW made a specific rule specifying they can to trump the no joining single models rule.

Page 35 – Tyrant Guard, Shieldwall.
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to read “A
single Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) may join a unit
of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it had the Independent Character
special rule and, while part of the unit, is treated as such for
the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision
Shots and Precision Strikes”
See the bold bit above

So the answer is you are wrong on this, sorry. When an IC joins a unit it becomes a member of the unit for all rules purposes - a tyrant just has some exceptions.

It is still one unit

Yes a unit of Tyrant Guard.
A unit of Hive Tyrant always consist of one model.

rigeld2 wrote:
So they're not a single unit?
So I can move a Tyrant out of cogency of his Guard? They're two units after all.
You can shoot the Tyrant specifically? He's his own unit ya know.
When he rolls Look Out Sir!, where can the wounds be reallocated to?

The Tyrant can be a member of a unit. Therefore it is not always a single model unit. Therefore an IC can join a solo Tyrant.

I had to reverse on this one, they are one unit. And for the record the Tyrant could move out of cogency with the guard if there wasn't a special rule that prevented it.

The thing you are getting wrong is that when you combine a unit of 2 Tyrant Guard and a Tyrant you end up with a unit of Tyrant Guard that has 3 models in it, not a unit of Hive Tyrants with 3 models in it.

A Tyrant unit always has one model in it (per its composition). The rule states that ICs can not join a unit that always consists of one model. The fact that the unit can join other units has no bearing on that rule.

 HoverBoy wrote:
Yes a unit of Tyrant Guard.
A unit of Hive Tyrant always consist of one model.

So not two units, as you claimed above?

hoverboy wrote:
Sorry but you're wrong on this one, the tyrant and his HG are not a single unit (both the codex and FAQ make this clear

Can we square away your error here, as the FAQ clearly states the exact opposite? Then we can move on to why the HT is not always a unit consisting of one model, because he is a unit that can consist of 4 models.

They are two separate unit entries.
If he had the actual IC rule he would have a something that trumps the no joining single model units, but he only gains that once he joins the guard.

Irrelevant. They are a single unit when joined.

A single unit of 1 - 4 models

So, is the HT a unit (not unit ENTRY, but UNIT) that always consists of 1 model?

No

What about the fact the HT joins the Tyrant Guards "as if it was an IC"?

Surely that would break the idea that the HT is actually a member of the Tyrant Guard unit or vice verse.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Irrelevant. They are a single unit when joined.

A single unit of 1 - 4 models

So, is the HT a unit (not unit ENTRY, but UNIT) that always consists of 1 model?

Yes.
The unit that has a size of 1-3 is Hive Guard, not Hive Tyrant.

Quick question. How many models does a unit of Hive tyrant consist of?

I'm not asking about a unit of Tyrant Guard that may or may not have a Hive Tyrant attached, I'm asking about the Hive Tyrant unit itself.

If the answer is 1-X, then an IC can join a Hive Tyrant unit.

However, since a unit of Hive Tyrants always consists of a single model, an IC cannot join it.

 HoverBoy wrote:
See all IC are one model units by you'r logic they could always join each other, but if that broke no rule then why did GW made a specific rule specifying they can to trump the no joining single models rule.

Your assumption is that GW never writes redundant rules.
That's a bad assumption.

Happyjew wrote:
Quick question. How many models does a unit of Hive tyrant consist of?

I'm not asking about a unit of Tyrant Guard that may or may not have a Hive Tyrant attached, I'm asking about the Hive Tyrant unit itself.

If the answer is 1-X, then an IC can join a Hive Tyrant unit.

However, since a unit of Hive Tyrants always consists of a single model, an IC cannot join it.

Thank you for helping put in english what i can't.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Irrelevant. They are a single unit when joined.

A single unit of 1 - 4 models

So, is the HT a unit (not unit ENTRY, but UNIT) that always consists of 1 model?

No

Then by your logic the HT is always allowed to be joined by an IC because a Tyrant can be killed and would then be a unit with no models in it (and a unit that can have no models in it is not a unit that always consists of 1 model).

 Gloomfang wrote:
A Tyrant unit always has one model in it (per its composition).

So composition is the absolute rule? Is that your argument?
(Asking for clarification prior to rebuttal)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:
Quick question. How many models does a unit of Hive tyrant consist of?

I'm not asking about a unit of Tyrant Guard that may or may not have a Hive Tyrant attached, I'm asking about the Hive Tyrant unit itself.

If the answer is 1-X, then an IC can join a Hive Tyrant unit.

However, since a unit of Hive Tyrants always consists of a single model, an IC cannot join it.

The Hive Tyrant is, by definition, a normal member of the unit.

Right, a normal member of a Tyrant Guard unit which consists of 1-3 models prior to anything joining them.

How many models does a Hive Tyrant unit consist of? You've yet to answer the question.

Once the Hive Tyrant MODEL joins a Tyrant Guard UNIT he is no longer a part of a Hive Tyrant UNIT, there is no rules legal way to get a Hive Tyrant UNIT with more than one member, but there is a legal way to get a Hive Tyrant MODEL inside a Tyrant Guard UNIT with more than one member.

Happyjew wrote:
How many models does a Hive Tyrant unit consist of? You've yet to answer the question.

Sometimes 1. Sometimes the unit ceases to exist by itself and coexists with the Tyrant Guard unit, making it a unit of more than 1.

Happyjew wrote:
Right, a normal member of a Tyrant Guard unit which consists of 1-3 models prior to anything joining them.

How many models does a Hive Tyrant unit consist of? You've yet to answer the question.

Except it is not the unit entry that you are asked to look at, but the unit. The unit entry may only say 1, but the unit of HT+TG is what matters

rigeld2 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
How many models does a Hive Tyrant unit consist of? You've yet to answer the question.

Sometimes 1. Sometimes the unit ceases to exist by itself and coexists with the Tyrant Guard unit, making it a unit of more than 1.

Um no then the MODEL becomes a part of the Tyrant Guard UNIT, the two units don't magically meld, the character is absorbed in the unit he joins and becomes a part of it for all rules purpoces.
You don't get a Hive Tyrant/Tyrant Guard unit, you get a Tyrant Guard unit with a character in it.

 HoverBoy wrote:
Once the Hive Tyrant MODEL joins a Tyrant Guard UNIT he is no longer a part of a Hive Tyrant UNIT, there is no rules legal way to get a Hive Tyrant UNIT with more than one member, but there is a legal way to get a Hive Tyrant MODEL inside a Tyrant Guard UNIT with more than one member.

CAPS don't HELP your POINT. And it's considered rude. Please stop.

Please support your assertion that the Hive Tyrant unit ceases to exist completely when he joins the Tyrant Guard - the FAQ would imply differently as the whole bundle is worth 2 VPs. There are other rules that would imply differently as well.

Sorry don't know how to bold stuff...

 HoverBoy wrote:
Sorry don't know how to bold stuff...

You can either not use the quick reply and have access to the bold, italic, underline, etc. buttons above your posting area, or surround words with [ b] and [ /b] removing the spaces.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Page 35 – Tyrant Guard, Shieldwall.
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to read “A
single Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) may join a unit
of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it had the Independent Character
special rule and, while part of the unit, is treated as such for
the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision
Shots and Precision Strikes”
See the bold bit above

By reading this we are referenced to the IC USR.
There it says that a character is a part of the joined unit for all rules purposes. Therefore he is in fact a member of a Tyrant Guard unit once he joins one.

Yes. Meaning he is not always a unit consisting of a single model

The unit entry is not what you are directed to look at.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
A Tyrant unit always has one model in it (per its composition).

So composition is the absolute rule? Is that your argument?
(Asking for clarification prior to rebuttal)

No I am saying that a model and a unit are two diffrent things. When the Tyrant joins the Guard the Tyrant model joins the Guard unit. While he is part of that Guard unit the Tyrant unit does not exist. That is why they had to state that a Tyrant and his Guard count as 2 VP, becasue otherwise you would only get 1 VP for the Tyrant Guard unit.

 Gloomfang wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
A Tyrant unit always has one model in it (per its composition).

So composition is the absolute rule? Is that your argument?
(Asking for clarification prior to rebuttal)

No I am saying that a model and a unit are two diffrent things. When the Tyrant joins the Guard the Tyrant model joins the Guard unit. While he is part of that Guard unit the Tyrant unit does not exist. That is why they had to state that a Tyrant and his Guard count as 2 VP, becasue otherwise you would only get 1 VP for the Tyrant Guard unit.

Well no that's how it is for all IC, but since the HT is an unusual case of a normal character acting like an IC they saw it necessary to make clear.

The problem is that an IC cannot join a unit that always consists of a single model. Hive Tyrant (the unit) is a unit that always consists of a single model. Therefore, an IC cannot join a Hive Tyrant unit. This is not to say they cannot join a Hive Tyrant model, just a Hive Tyrant unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Greyknight codex

The hive tyrant is a member of a unit containing 1 - 4 models, so can ne joined by an IC at any time. Same as just because you havent bought 2 carnifex doesnt mean you cannot add a prime to a single carnifex

Show me anywhere that it says the HT unit composition is 1-4 Hive Tyrants. You wont find it.


Mordrak.... "Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form a unit, with Mordrak acting as an uprade character until such a point as the Ghost Knights are slain, at which point he reverts to being a single model unit in his own right....


So Mordrak has a rule that changes his status from a unit of 1 to a unit of Ghost Knights with him as an upgrade character.

 HoverBoy wrote:
Well no that's how it is for all IC, but since the HT is an unusual case of a normal character acting like an IC they saw it necessary to make clear.

The reason is that the rules state you get 1 VP for an IC and 1 VP for a unit. The issue was that Tyrant is not an IC, so people were saying you only got 1VP for killing off the the unit.

The intresting thing on rereading the rules for Shieldwall (for the 50th time) is that when a Tyrant joins the Guard the unit will always be considered Tyrant Guard, even if there are no Guard models left. Once you join the unit the Tyrant can never leave the unit (not even if they all die). So an IC will always be able to join the Tyrant and the Tyrant will always be able to LOS! on a 2+.

 Gloomfang wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
A Tyrant unit always has one model in it (per its composition).

So composition is the absolute rule? Is that your argument?
(Asking for clarification prior to rebuttal)

No I am saying that a model and a unit are two diffrent things. When the Tyrant joins the Guard the Tyrant model joins the Guard unit. While he is part of that Guard unit the Tyrant unit does not exist. That is why they had to state that a Tyrant and his Guard count as 2 VP, becasue otherwise you would only get 1 VP for the Tyrant Guard unit.

So normally an IC joining a unit that dies with a unit doesn't count for a second VP?
The Tyrant unit still exists.

rigeld2 wrote:
So normally an IC joining a unit that dies with a unit doesn't count for a second VP?
The Tyrant unit still exists.

ICs do count. Tyrants didn't becasue they are not ICs, the Guard just has a rule that lets the Guard interact with them as if the Tyrant was an IC. That would mean until the FAQ you only got 1 KP (as this was 5th when it was FAQed and they just changed KP to VP for the 6th FAQ) for killing the unit and not 2.

And I have presented evidance and rules saying that the Tyrant unit does not exist. Where in the rules does it state that it does exist?

 Gloomfang wrote:
ICs do count. Tyrants didn't becasue they are not ICs, the Guard just has a rule that lets the Guard interact with them as if the Tyrant was an IC. That would mean until the FAQ you only got 1 KP (as this was 5th when it was FAQed and they just changed KP to VP for the 6th FAQ) for killing the unit and not 2.

In 5th it was FAQed to be 1, not 2.

And I have presented evidance and rules saying that the Tyrant unit does not exist. Where in the rules does it state that it does exist?

The Tyrant joins "exactly as if it had the Independent Character special rule". Meaning that if the Tyrant unit ceases to exist, so does every other IC unit when they join.
Are you willing to have that discussion?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
ICs do count. Tyrants didn't becasue they are not ICs, the Guard just has a rule that lets the Guard interact with them as if the Tyrant was an IC. That would mean until the FAQ you only got 1 KP (as this was 5th when it was FAQed and they just changed KP to VP for the 6th FAQ) for killing the unit and not 2.

In 5th it was FAQed to be 1, not 2.

And I have presented evidance and rules saying that the Tyrant unit does not exist. Where in the rules does it state that it does exist?

The Tyrant joins "exactly as if it had the Independent Character special rule". Meaning that if the Tyrant unit ceases to exist, so does every other IC unit when they join.
Are you willing to have that discussion?

Page 39 an IC is a part of the joined unit for all rules purposes. Unless you wanna discuss how he's a member of two units simultaneously.

(BTW i found the bold thing too, proud of myself)

 HoverBoy wrote:
Page 39 an IC is a part of the joined unit for all rules purposes. Unless you wanna discuss how he's a member of two units simultaneously.

He is.
There's no evidence that his old unit is destroyed. Both units still exist.

rigeld2 wrote:

 HoverBoy wrote:
Page 39 an IC is a part of the joined unit for all rules purposes. Unless you wanna discuss how he's a member of two units simultaneously.

He is.
There's no evidence that his old unit is destroyed. Both units still exist.

And still Hive Tyrant (the unit) is a unit that consists of only 1 model.

Damn it i can't make this not offencive

rigeld2 wrote:

 HoverBoy wrote:
Page 39 an IC is a part of the joined unit for all rules purposes. Unless you wanna discuss how he's a member of two units simultaneously.

He is.
There's no evidence that his old unit is destroyed. Both units still exist.

He cannot leave the unit once he has joined it, therefore he is no longer his own unit.

But its still moot, the only interaction that they IC and HT can have is through the Guard unit and the Shieldwall rule.

rigeld2 wrote:
In 5th it was FAQed to be 1, not 2.

Faulty memeory then. I never took Tyrants in 5th as I felt they were to expensive. I only started using hte Swarmlord near the end of 5th becasue I liked the model.

rigeld2 wrote:
]The Tyrant joins "exactly as if it had the Independent Character special rule". Meaning that if the Tyrant unit ceases to exist, so does every other IC unit when they join.
Are you willing to have that discussion?

Yes I am.
When an IC joins a unit you end up with one single unit, whatever the unit was before he joined and a character. You join a Prime with a unit of Termigaunts you end up with a unit of Termigaunts with a charater. You can't target the Prime seprately (except if you have a rule that lets you do so) becasue he is part of the unit. When he leaves the Termigaunts he becomes his own unit again.

So let me ask a follow up to further this discussion.

A Tyrant joins a unit of Tyrant Guard. Do you end up with:

A) A Tyrant Guard unit with a char.
B) A Hive Tyrant unit with some guards.
C) A unit of two units.
D) Something else that I haven't listed.

Also put the rule that makes you think that answer is right.

For the people arguing cannot join.

Hive Tyrant and Prime both join a unit of Tyrant Guard.
Tyrant Guard killed off.
You now have two models legally attached.
Is it a Hive Tyrant unit or a Tyranid Prime unit?

If it is a Hive Tyrant unit, then it is not a unit that always consists of one model.

C) according to some people.

Happyjew wrote:
For the people arguing cannot join.

Hive Tyrant and Prime both join a unit of Tyrant Guard.
Tyrant Guard killed off.
You now have two models legally attached.
Is it a Hive Tyrant unit or a Tyranid Prime unit?

If it is a Hive Tyrant unit, then it is not a unit that always consists of one model.

Its neither. It is a unit of Tyrant Guard. It doesn't matter if the guard are killed off. The reason that that ICs are forced to leave a unit that is destroied is that he can't maintain unit coherency with a unit with no models. The Tyrant doesn't have permission to leave the unit of Tyrant Guard under any cercomstances, so it is always a unit of Tyrant Guard, even if he is the only model in the unit.

Q: How many victory points is a unit of Tyrant Guard that has been joined by a Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) worth? (p35)
A: Two.

Q: Can a Hive Tyrant or the Swarmlord choose to leave a unit of Tyrant Guard once it has joined them? (p35)
A: No.

In all references, it is called a unit of Tyrant Guard.

Hive Tyrant and Prime both join a unit of Tyrant Guard.
Tyrant Guard killed off.
You now have two models legally attached.
Is it a Hive Tyrant unit or a Tyranid Prime unit?

If it is a Hive Tyrant unit, then it is not a unit that always consists of one model.

Its still a unit of Tyrant Guard. The IC's are counted as part of that unit. The IC's are not forced to leave the unit and become their own until all other members of that unit (which includes IC's) are killed off.

Fragile wrote:

Its still a unit of Tyrant Guard. The IC's are counted as part of that unit. The IC's are not forced to leave the unit and become their own until all other members of that unit (which includes IC's) are killed off.

Great now I have to go and double check my answer on if the rest of the unit is killed if the IC has to leave the unit. I guess if he is the only member of the unit he just has to maintain coherency with himself...

Either way my answer is still that the Tyrant can't leave the guard unit, even if they are all dead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HoverBoy wrote:
C) according to some people.

And as far as I know a unit can only be a unit, not two units or else it would be two units.

If that makes any sense.

Pg 39. ".....If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase."


The Tyrant cannot choose to leave the Guard Unit, but I expect that it can be forced to leave it when the Guard all die. However, the FAQ states that the Tyrant Guard unit is worth 2 VP. If the Tyrant becomes his own unit when the Guard die, your opponent would get 2 VP for killing the Guard unit even though the Tyrant is still alive. This could make the case that the Tyrant cannot leave the unit all at once he joins it, even forcibly. He would become in essence an upgrade character to it.

Fragile wrote:
Pg 39. ".....If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase."


The Tyrant cannot choose to leave the Guard Unit, but I expect that it can be forced to leave it when the Guard all die. However, the FAQ states that the Tyrant Guard unit is worth 2 VP. If the Tyrant becomes his own unit when the Guard die, your opponent would get 2 VP for killing the Guard unit even though the Tyrant is still alive. This could make the case that the Tyrant cannot leave the unit all at once he joins it, even forcibly. He would become in essence an upgrade character to it.

I would agree that he is essentaily an upgrade. The issue with using the rule on pg 39 is that the Shieldwall rule does not make the Tyrant an IC for everything, like being forced to become a unit of one model again. The rule actully states he can not leave the unit.

And if the opponet kills off all the Guard, but not the Tyrant, they get no VPs. You either get 2 for killing the unit (the entire unit) or you get none.

The tyrant cannot leave the unit once he has joined it.
The combined unit is a tyrant guard unit, with a hive tyrant in it.
It is not 2 seperate units, nor does it function as if it were.

Since his unit title changes when joining the unit (to tyrant guard unit) in theory you gain 0 vp's for killing just the guard, as a member of the unit still exists.

A prime cant join a lone tyrant as he is a single model with a unit size of 1 and no IC rule.
Once the tyrant has joined a unit of tyrant guard and becomes a larger unit, the prime can then join as its a tyrant guard unit that contains 4 models.

If the tyrant guard are killed, leaving the tyrant and prime, it will still be a formed unit.
But it consists of a single model from the tyrant guard unit with a prime added into it.

So you're all saying that:
Draigo joins a solo paladin.
Solo paladin is killed.
Game ends before the next movement phase.

VP is not earned for the solo paladin?

Draigo is an IC.
The tyrant is not.

Yes, the tyrant is treated as an IC.
But only if he joins a unit of guard, and even then, the rules do not cover that as they have limitations on what he can do when acting like an IC.

 Jackal wrote:
Draigo is an IC.
The tyrant is not.

Yes, the tyrant is treated as an IC.
But only if he joins a unit of guard, and even then, the rules do not cover that as they have limitations on what he can do when acting like an IC.

It joins the unit exactly as if it had the Independent Character special rule and does other things. Not "treated as", "exactly as".

pg 127....Units that are falling back at the end of the game, and units that are not on the board at the end of the game, count as destroyed for the purposes of this mission. Remember that Independent Characters and Dedicated Transports are
individual units and award Victory Points if they are destroyed.


Is the paladin on the board ?

Fragile wrote:
pg 127....Units that are falling back at the end of the game, and units that are not on the board at the end of the game, count as destroyed for the purposes of this mission. Remember that Independent Characters and Dedicated Transports are
individual units and award Victory Points if they are destroyed.


Is the paladin on the board ?

No, but you're asserting that Draigo is still part of the unit, therefore the unit is still on the board.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
pg 127....Units that are falling back at the end of the game, and units that are not on the board at the end of the game, count as destroyed for the purposes of this mission. Remember that Independent Characters and Dedicated Transports are
individual units and award Victory Points if they are destroyed.


Is the paladin on the board ?

No, but you're asserting that Draigo is still part of the unit, therefore the unit is still on the board.

I have asserted nothing about Draigo. I have been talking about the Hive Tyrant and the Tyrant Guard, who have Unique rules about how they interact.

No, however a Paladin Unit is still on the board.

It joins the unit exactly as if it had the Independent Character special rule and does other things. Not "treated as", "exactly as".

Page 35 – Tyrant Guard, Shieldwall.
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to read “A
single Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) may join a unit
of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it had the Independent Character
special rule and, while part of the unit, is treated as such for
the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision
Shots and Precision Strikes”.

Thats good, until you read on after that point.
In which it describes to what extent the IC rules apply.
If it just said "Exactly as" and left it at that, fine.
But it goes on to add in limitations to that rule.
Which, in theory means its not exactly as, since there limits to it.

It simply joins the unit like an IC, then gains some of the rules from it.
It does not become an IC.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, however a Paladin Unit is still on the board.

The second sentence addresses that.

Fragile wrote:Its still a unit of Tyrant Guard. The IC's are counted as part of that unit. The IC's are not forced to leave the unit and become their own until all other members of that unit (which includes IC's) are killed off.

Fragile wrote:I have asserted nothing about Draigo. I have been talking about the Hive Tyrant and the Tyrant Guard, who have Unique rules about how they interact.

If the Tyrant+Prime+Guard loses all the Guard but is still a Guard unit, then Draigo+Paladin is still a Paladin unit when the Paladin dies.
There's no unique rules interaction there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jackal wrote:

Page 35 – Tyrant Guard, Shieldwall.
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to read “A
single Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) may join a unit
of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it had the Independent Character
special rule and, while part of the unit, is treated as such for
the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision
Shots and Precision Strikes”.

Thats good, until you read on after that point.
In which it describes to what extent the IC rules apply.
If it just said "Exactly as" and left it at that, fine.
But it goes on to add in limitations to that rule.
Which, in theory means its not exactly as, since there limits to it.

It simply joins the unit like an IC, then gains some of the rules from it.
It does not become an IC.

I bolded the word you're missing. And means "in addition to". Meaning it joins like one, and gets to do these other things like one as well, instead of like a normal Character that it already is.
Joining like one is all that's required for the argument I'm making, just FYI.

Fragile wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, however a Paladin Unit is still on the board.

The second sentence addresses that.

It does not alter that they are a Paladin unit AND an IC unit. They are both at the same time. If you diagree, an actual quote would be needed

Thats good, but again, just because it says "and" does not mean its going to allways add in more, ontop of what you have at current.

while part of the unit, is treated as such for
the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision
Shots and Precision Strikes”.

It actually takes away alot of benefits/rules of being an IC.

 Jackal wrote:
Thats good, but again, just because it says "and" does not mean its going to allways add in more, ontop of what you have at current.

while part of the unit, is treated as such for
the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision
Shots and Precision Strikes”.

It actually takes away alot of benefits/rules of being an IC.

Again, irrelevant - because all that matters (for this argument) is that the Tyrant joins the unit as an IC. And it does - exactly as one.

But he does not do exactly as one for everything, as the next part of shieldwall removes this.

You cant really ignore a 2nd part to try and prove a point.
Because it really does prove nothing, well, except that your not fully reading a rule.
And "joins as an IC" is not the same as "is an IC"

rigeld2 wrote:
So you're all saying that:
Draigo joins a solo paladin.
Solo paladin is killed.
Game ends before the next movement phase.

VP is not earned for the solo paladin?

If the unit the IC joined is killed the IC becomes a unit of one at the start of the next phase, not the next movement phase.

So if the game was ended midphase (like at dice down at a tourny) then VP would not be earned for/the solo as the unit would not be dead when you check for VP.

EDIT: It is at the start of the next phase, not the end of the current phase. Result is the same.

 Gloomfang wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So you're all saying that:
Draigo joins a solo paladin.
Solo paladin is killed.
Game ends before the next movement phase.

VP is not earned for the solo paladin?

If the unit the IC joined is killed the IC becomes a unit of one at the end of the phase, not the next movement phase.

So if the game was ended midphase (like at dice down at a tourny) then VP would not be earned for/the solo as the unit would not be dead when you check for VP.

Where's the permission for the IC to leave the unit before the next movement phase?

rigeld2 wrote:
Where's the permission for the IC to leave the unit before the next movement phase?

Got it slightly wrong. It is the start of the next phase, not the end of the current one. So if the unit dies in the shooting phase, the IC becomes a unit of one at the start of the Assualt phase. Still if you are at Dice down and the next phase doesn't start then Draigo is still part of the unit and the unit is technicaly not destroyed.

Refrence:
Pg 39. ".....If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase."

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So you're all saying that:
Draigo joins a solo paladin.
Solo paladin is killed.
Game ends before the next movement phase.

VP is not earned for the solo paladin?

If the unit the IC joined is killed the IC becomes a unit of one at the end of the phase, not the next movement phase.

So if the game was ended midphase (like at dice down at a tourny) then VP would not be earned for/the solo as the unit would not be dead when you check for VP.

Where's the permission for the IC to leave the unit before the next movement phase?

On page 39 where it says once the IC is the last survivor in the unit he's his own unit again, as such no members of the joined unit remain and thus it is destroyed.
With that said i believe that claiming that no VP are scored for dead Tyrant Guard is just as stupid as a prime joining a solo HT, so i'll look into that too (although i fear GW may have actually goofed on that).

 Gloomfang wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Where's the permission for the IC to leave the unit before the next movement phase?

Got it slightly wrong. It is the start of the next phase, not the end of the current one. So if the unit dies in the shooting phase, the IC becomes a unit of one at the start of the Assualt phase. Still if you are at Dice down and the next phase doesn't start then Draigo is still part of the unit and the unit is technicaly not destroyed.

Or if you end turn 5 and don't start turn 6.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Where's the permission for the IC to leave the unit before the next movement phase?

Got it slightly wrong. It is the start of the next phase, not the end of the current one. So if the unit dies in the shooting phase, the IC becomes a unit of one at the start of the Assualt phase. Still if you are at Dice down and the next phase doesn't start then Draigo is still part of the unit and the unit is technicaly not destroyed.

Or if you end turn 5 and don't start turn 6.

That would be true too. Need to keep that in mind.

Hive Tryant Unit Composition is listed as 1 in the codex. That is a pretty good case that it is consider unit of always one model.

barnowl wrote:
Hive Tryant Unit Composition is listed as 1 in the codex. That is a pretty good case that it is consider unit of always one model.

As does Mordrak.

rigeld2 wrote:

barnowl wrote:
Hive Tryant Unit Composition is listed as 1 in the codex. That is a pretty good case that it is consider unit of always one model.

As does Mordrak.

Yes, but he has a special rule that let's you add models to his unit.

I do think we have covered the whole can Primes attach to lone Tyrants question though.

Think I only had to change my mind about something twice. I had the right answer, but for non RAW reasons.

 Gloomfang wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

barnowl wrote:
Hive Tryant Unit Composition is listed as 1 in the codex. That is a pretty good case that it is consider unit of always one model.

As does Mordrak.

Yes, but he has a special rule that let's you add models to his unit.

I do think we have covered the whole can Primes attach to lone Tyrants question though.

Think I only had to change my mind about something twice. I had the right answer, but for non RAW reasons.

I don't think you have. Well, not to the point where we're in agreement anyway.

What point do you disagree with? Last I knew it was what is the unit that was formed when you join a tyrant with a unit of Guards.

 Gloomfang wrote:
What point do you disagree with? Last I knew it was what is the unit that was formed when you join a tyrant with a unit of Guards.

Your assumption that the Tyrant unit ceases to exist when he joins the Guard is one point we disagree on.

Hive Tyrant (the unit) is an Independent Character and joins another unit (the fact that it must be Guard is irrelevant).
It's therefore not a unit that always consists of a single model.

Ehm who actually thinks Mordrak on his own can be joined? Is he an IC? No. Does he always consist of a single model? Yes. So no joining if he is alone. Same applies to Hive Tyrant.

Yes Hive Tyrant + Guard is Hive Tyrant + Guard not only Guard. But does that mean the Hive Tyrant unit extends? No. Because it is neither a hive tyrant unit nor a guard unit. It is a unit consisting of a hive tyrant and guards. And if you want to join, you join the guards.

Pretty simple.

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
Ehm who actually thinks Mordrak on his own can be joined? Is he an IC? No. Does he always consist of a single model? Yes. So no joining if he is alone.

Except you're wrong. He's absolutely not a model that is always a single model unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
What point do you disagree with? Last I knew it was what is the unit that was formed when you join a tyrant with a unit of Guards.

Your assumption that the Tyrant unit ceases to exist when he joins the Guard is one point we disagree on.

Hive Tyrant (the unit) is an Independent Character and joins another unit (the fact that it must be Guard is irrelevant).
It's therefore not a unit that always consists of a single model.

So you are saying that it is two units?

That would not work with pg.39 about him counting as part of the unit for all rules, except the character rules.
And even if that did somehow work, you are not adding guard to the tyrant unit as both the Shieldwall and IC rules say that he joins the guards unit, not he joins thiers.

Just show me how the guard end up being considered part of the Tyrant unit (and not the tyrant model in the same unit with the guard) and I might agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
Ehm who actually thinks Mordrak on his own can be joined? Is he an IC? No. Does he always consist of a single model? Yes. So no joining if he is alone.

Except you're wrong. He's absolutely not a model that is always a single model unit.

Yes he is. When he is not a unit of 1 he is an upgrade character in a unit of ghosts just like his rule says. It even states when he is alone he is a unit of one.

And folks who think you can have a unit made of more than one unit need to read the rules onForming a Unit from pg 3 and then the rules for movement on page 10. You have to move one unit at a time and you must maintain coherency. That is impossible if a unit can consist of more than one unit as you would have to move the unit of 1 seprately from the unit it joined. They would never be able to move.

I'm saying its one combined unit. There no movement issue as you nominate the single combined unit to move and do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gloomfang wrote:

Yes he is. When he is not a unit of 1 he is an upgrade character in a unit of ghosts just like his rule says. It even states when he is alone he is a unit of one.

So he's always a unit of one, except that time when he's not.
If he takes a wound and places a Ghost Knight is he still a unit of one? Can an IC join him? What happens when the Ghost Knight dies? It's even more uncomfortable than the Hive Tyrant question because you can't argue that the IC joined a different unit - the IC joined Mordrak.

If he takes a woundthen he is not considered a unit of one, he is part of a unit of ghosts. The IC can then join that unit of ghosts. When the Ghost knight dies the unit is still considered a unit of ghost knights because the IC counts as a ghost knight to Mordrak and that means he is still just an upgrade character in the unit. That means that the IC can stay as the upgrade character in the ghost unit is still alive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm saying its one combined unit. There no movement issue as you nominate the single combined unit to move and do so.

Ok so where are the rules that let you combine units? I only see rules joining other units.

Gloomfang, let me ask you this. Stepping away from the whole Hive Tyrant issue for a moment.

You have a Tyranid Prime and the Parasite of Mortrex. Both have the Independent Character special rule and as such can join each other. You move the Parasite within 2" of the Prime and declare that the Parasite is joining the Prime.

Do you have a Tyranid Prime unit or would you call it something else?

Happyjew wrote:
Gloomfang, let me ask you this. Stepping away from the whole Hive Tyrant issue for a moment.

You have a Tyranid Prime and the Parasite of Mortrex. Both have the Independent Character special rule and as such can join each other. You move the Parasite within 2" of the Prime and declare that the Parasite is joining the Prime.

Do you have a Tyranid Prime unit or would you call it something else?

They are a Multi-character unit per pg 39.

rigeld2 wrote:

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
Ehm who actually thinks Mordrak on his own can be joined? Is he an IC? No. Does he always consist of a single model? Yes. So no joining if he is alone.

Except you're wrong. He's absolutely not a model that is always a single model unit.

ICs are units that always consist of a single model, just like most vehicles and most monstrous creatures, as cited in the first paragraph of the IC rules. The only reason an IC can join another IC is because the IC rules grant specific permission to do that, which is an exception.

The fact that an IC or Hive Tyrant can join another unit and become part of it (and an IC can join another IC to form a multi-character unit) doesn't change the fact that those units always consist of a single model. When they join another unit, they become temporarily a part of that unit instead.

 Mannahnin wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
Ehm who actually thinks Mordrak on his own can be joined? Is he an IC? No. Does he always consist of a single model? Yes. So no joining if he is alone.

Except you're wrong. He's absolutely not a model that is always a single model unit.

ICs are units that always consist of a single model, just like most vehicles and most monstrous creatures, as cited in the first paragraph of the IC rules. The only reason an IC can join another IC is because the IC rules grant specific permission to do that, which is an exception.

The fact that an IC or Hive Tyrant can join another unit and become part of it (and an IC can join another IC to form a multi-character unit) doesn't change the fact that those units always consist of a single model. When they join another unit, they become temporarily a part of that unit instead.

Mordrak isn't an IC, which it seems like you think he is by your first paragraph.
Can you cite the rule saying the Hive Tyrant unit ceases to exist?
The FAQ implies it does not (since there's 2VP there), and any IC joining a unit, if they were to not be a unit anymore, would not be worth VP individually.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
Ehm who actually thinks Mordrak on his own can be joined? Is he an IC? No. Does he always consist of a single model? Yes. So no joining if he is alone.

Except you're wrong. He's absolutely not a model that is always a single model unit.

ICs are units that always consist of a single model, just like most vehicles and most monstrous creatures, as cited in the first paragraph of the IC rules. The only reason an IC can join another IC is because the IC rules grant specific permission to do that, which is an exception.

The fact that an IC or Hive Tyrant can join another unit and become part of it (and an IC can join another IC to form a multi-character unit) doesn't change the fact that those units always consist of a single model. When they join another unit, they become temporarily a part of that unit instead.

Mordrak isn't an IC, which it seems like you think he is by your first paragraph.
Can you cite the rule saying the Hive Tyrant unit ceases to exist?
The FAQ implies it does not (since there's 2VP there), and any IC joining a unit, if they were to not be a unit anymore, would not be worth VP individually.

Actually it's on you to prove how one can be two.
Every time an IC joins a unit you have a single unit with more than one VP in it, GW made it clear the tyrant and his guards aren't any different.

It seems pretty simple to me:
Hive Tyrant is a single model who is not an IC.
Tyranid Prime is an IC.
Tyrant Guard are a unit of multiple models.
The Prime can join the Hive Guard due the the IC rule.
Tyrant Guard have a special rule allowing a Hive Tyrant to join them.
The Hive Tyrant is always a unit of a single model, with the explicit exception to the normal rules of when it joins the Tyrant Guard. Given this is a special rule, not an IC rule, it does not follow all the normal rules for IC's or whatnot in the BRB.
When the Hive Tyrant joins the Tyrant Guard, he still does not count as an IC. He uses the 'IC can join a unit' rules to determine how he joins the unit (ie, needing to be within range). He gains some of the abilities of being an IC.

If a Hive Tyrant joins the Tyrant Guard, you now have a Tyrant Guard unit with an attached Hive Tyrant. You do not have 2 units, and you do not have a unit of Hive Tyrants.
A Prime can join the unit, because he's an IC, and you now have a unit of Tyrant Guard with an attached Prime IC. You do not have a unit of Primes.

But a Prime cannot join the Hive Tyrant, because the Tyrant is always a unit of 1.

 HoverBoy wrote:

Actually it's on you to prove how one can be two.
Every time an IC joins a unit you have a single unit with more than one VP in it, GW made it clear the tyrant and his guards aren't any different.

You're contradicting yourself.
If its always one unit, how is it worth 2 VP?

rigeld2 wrote:

 HoverBoy wrote:

Actually it's on you to prove how one can be two.
Every time an IC joins a unit you have a single unit with more than one VP in it, GW made it clear the tyrant and his guards aren't any different.

You're contradicting yourself.
If its always one unit, how is it worth 2 VP?

ICs are worth one VP each because the rules say that they are worth one VP. (pg127)
The unit of Tyrant Guard and the Tyrant are worth 2 VP because the FAQ says they are worth 2VP. (Nid FAQ).

If you want to know why they did it, they probably just intended for the Tyrant to be treated like an IC for VP purposes. But it really doesn't matter. Its worth 2VP because they rules say its worth 2VP.

First of all: Mordrak is Mordrak and Ghost Knights are Ghost Knights. If somehow a ghost knight appears we have a unit of Ghost Knights with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character to the unit of ghost knights. Did the unit "Mordrak" now extend? No, we have as you correctly indicated, a combined unit. But this unit is no longer "Mordrak". So indeed the unit "Mordrak" always consist of a single model. The unit "Mordrak+Ghost Knights" or better: "Ghost Knights with Mordrak as part of them" is a different thing. So, yeah during the co-existence of those two units the unit "Mordrak" ceases to exist.

Ghost Knights are of course joinable, so if you have an IC there, you can join a ghost knight. If the ghost knights die and Mordrak survives with an IC attached previously, he will return to his original status and the IC is then on is own as well since it can't join Mordrak and the unit it had joined (the ghost Knights) is gone.

The facts are clear, the codex states Grand Master Mordrak's unit composition is 1 (unique). Now the other way round: If you buy Ghost Knights as well, is this unit called Grandmaster Mordrak and consist of 2-6 models?

 -Nazdreg- wrote:

First of all: Mordrak is Mordrak and Ghost Knights are Ghost Knights. If somehow a ghost knight appears we have a unit of Ghost Knights with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character to the unit of ghost knights. Did the unit "Mordrak" now extend? No, we have as you correctly indicated, a combined unit. But this unit is no longer "Mordrak". So indeed the unit "Mordrak" always consist of a single model. The unit "Mordrak+Ghost Knights" or better: "Ghost Knights with Mordrak as part of them" is a different thing. So, yeah during the co-existence of those two units the unit "Mordrak" ceases to exist.

Ghost Knights are of course joinable, so if you have an IC there, you can join a ghost knight. If the ghost knights die and Mordrak survives with an IC attached previously, he will return to his original status and the IC is then on is own as well since it can't join Mordrak and the unit it had joined (the ghost Knights) is gone.

The facts are clear, the codex states Grand Master Mordrak's unit composition is 1 (unique). Now the other way round: If you buy Ghost Knights as well, is this unit called Grandmaster Mordrak and consist of 2-6 models?

I think you were right on up until the bold part. When the IC joins the the unit he becomes part of it for all intents and purposes. Mordrak and the IC could still operate together since Mordrak was an upgrade Character to a unit that the IC joined. If the IC left, then I dont think he would be able to rejoin Mordrak.

Typically, if the word shenanigans is used, its a safe bet to go the other way on the rule in question...

Fragile wrote:

 -Nazdreg- wrote:

First of all: Mordrak is Mordrak and Ghost Knights are Ghost Knights. If somehow a ghost knight appears we have a unit of Ghost Knights with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character to the unit of ghost knights. Did the unit "Mordrak" now extend? No, we have as you correctly indicated, a combined unit. But this unit is no longer "Mordrak". So indeed the unit "Mordrak" always consist of a single model. The unit "Mordrak+Ghost Knights" or better: "Ghost Knights with Mordrak as part of them" is a different thing. So, yeah during the co-existence of those two units the unit "Mordrak" ceases to exist.

Ghost Knights are of course joinable, so if you have an IC there, you can join a ghost knight. If the ghost knights die and Mordrak survives with an IC attached previously, he will return to his original status and the IC is then on is own as well since it can't join Mordrak and the unit it had joined (the ghost Knights) is gone.

The facts are clear, the codex states Grand Master Mordrak's unit composition is 1 (unique). Now the other way round: If you buy Ghost Knights as well, is this unit called Grandmaster Mordrak and consist of 2-6 models?

I think you were right on up until the bold part. When the IC joins the the unit he becomes part of it for all intents and purposes. Mordrak and the IC could still operate together since Mordrak was an upgrade Character to a unit that the IC joined. If the IC left, then I dont think he would be able to rejoin Mordrak.

Agreed (more or less). If an IC joins a unit that includes a model from a unit that always consists of a single model (such as a Hive Tyrant our Mordrak), and the rest of the unit dies, the IC is still attached to the model.

Happyjew wrote:

Agreed (more or less). If an IC joins a unit that includes a model from a unit that always consists of a single model (such as a Hive Tyrant our Mordrak), and the rest of the unit dies, the IC is still attached to the model.

That is becasue the unit it attached to (Guard or Ghosts) is not destroyed becasue the other model (Mordrak or Tyrant) is still part of that original unit. Once the IC leaves Mordrak then Mordrac becomes a unit of one and the IC can not rejoin.

The Tyrant is iffy. It is not really an IC and he does not have permission (or requirement) to once again become a unit of 1.

As of right now the case of the guard/ghosts dying off is a hole in the rules with no defined resolution in the rules.

I think you were right on up until the bold part. When the IC joins the the unit he becomes part of it for all intents and purposes. Mordrak and the IC could still operate together since Mordrak was an upgrade Character to a unit that the IC joined. If the IC left, then I dont think he would be able to rejoin Mordrak.

I must disagree here, because this would be inconsequent. If Mordrak (or the Hive Tyrant) can be "accidentally" joined by an IC due to the death of the unit they were attached to and the IC had joined for a certain amount of time, then it must be possible to join them right in the first place.

If however it is impossible to join a unit only consisting of a single model, and if that is the case with a Hive Tyrant and Mordrak, then it must be impossible to join Mordrak with an IC that joined the Ghost Knights when the Ghost Knights are dead.

My Argumentation is like this:

1. Mordrak is unit composition 1 (unique), so unjoinable by ICs
2. Ghost Knights are 1-5, so joinable

The combination of both contains a joinable unit, so it is possible to join the Ghost Knights when Mordrak is with them. But when the Ghost Knights are gone, the joinable combination ceases to exist and Mordrak returns to a model in his own right. That means the IC is no longer part of the unit since Mordrak has his original unjoinable status and not the upgrade character status of a ghost knight unit.

The Hive Tyrant is a little more difficult. The codex doesnt specifically state:

1. What is his status during his coexistence with the guard?
2. What happens when the guard dies?

Fact is, the unit Hive Tyrant is unit composition 1, so it is never more than 1 model. But the unit Hive Tyrant+Tyrant Guard is not so clear.
I would solve it like this (Attention, unusual...):

The Hive Tyrant joined the guard as if he were an IC (he isn't though). That refers only to the joining process. That means from that on, he reverts to being an own unit but is locked in coherency with the hive guard since he is unable to leave the unit as he is only permitted to join, not to leave.

Other option: He becomes part of the unit tyrant guard. Then when the last "real" tyrant guard died, no KP will be scored and the "Hive Tyrant" will be joinable after that because he is no longer Hive Tyrant but tyrant guard with a hive tyrant profile.

These are the two possibilities I can see. Both do not permit an IC to join a Hive Tyrant per se.

I think Mordrak is actually joinable, because he has the option of being fielded as a unit of multiple models, rather than just as Mordrak by himself.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
Ehm who actually thinks Mordrak on his own can be joined? Is he an IC? No. Does he always consist of a single model? Yes. So no joining if he is alone.

Except you're wrong. He's absolutely not a model that is always a single model unit.

ICs are units that always consist of a single model, just like most vehicles and most monstrous creatures, as cited in the first paragraph of the IC rules. The only reason an IC can join another IC is because the IC rules grant specific permission to do that, which is an exception.

The fact that an IC or Hive Tyrant can join another unit and become part of it (and an IC can join another IC to form a multi-character unit) doesn't change the fact that those units always consist of a single model. When they join another unit, they become temporarily a part of that unit instead.

Mordrak isn't an IC, which it seems like you think he is by your first paragraph.
Can you cite the rule saying the Hive Tyrant unit ceases to exist?
The FAQ implies it does not (since there's 2VP there), and any IC joining a unit, if they were to not be a unit anymore, would not be worth VP individually.

Mordrak and the Tyrant are somewhat unusual cases, but I think Nazdreg mostly has the right of it.

The FAQ ruling is necessitated by the rules working the way they do, but GW not wanting the VPs to vanish. They don't want a Hive Tyrant attached to Tyrant Guard to be worth only 1vp, just like they don't want an IC + squad to be only one VP (say, if they run off the table for example or otherwise die at the same time), so they had to create exceptions to the general rule that the attached units (Tyrant or IC) stop being units of their own while they're attached.

Mordrak is really a separate issue from the HT. Mordrak has specific rules about his participation in a unit. ..

.. edit..

Actually reading the rule again, I would say you are right, but not for the reason you stated Nazdrag. His "unjoinable status" does not apply, because an IC is not attempting to join him, he already is joined with him as Mordrak is nothing more than an upgrade character to the Ghost Knight unit. There is nothing in the rule that would force the IC out.

Mordrak's rule states that he becomes a single unit again when the Ghost Knights die. So he is actually forced to leave the unit, not the IC.

The Hive Tyrant joined the guard as if he were an IC (he isn't though). That refers only to the joining process. That means from that on, he reverts to being an own unit but is locked in coherency with the hive guard since he is unable to leave the unit as he is only permitted to join, not to leave.

The HT is a bit of a gray area. The IC rules state that the IC is part of the unit, so there would not be 2 units in one. The FAQ states that the Guard unit is worth 2KP, so GW is adding in the Tyrant to the Guard value. The FAQ also states that the Tyrant cannot leave the Guard unit, which really should have said Voluntarily and that would have simplified this so much.

Having reread Modraks rules I have to say that there is an unresolved rules issue that does need an FAQ. His rule says he becomes a unit of 1 when there are no more Ghost Knights. The IC is not a Ghost Knight (for instance no Stealth). That means that Mordrak becomes a unit of 1, but it doesn't say ICs are forced out when a model becomes a unit that is always one. It just says he can not join it and he is already joined. All the other models have not been killed because Mordrak is still alive.

The Tyrant does not have that restriction that makes him a unit of 1 when the Guard all die, so the IC is fine staying with the unit of Guard, even if it just consists of the Tyrant.

Actually reading the rule again, I would say you are right, but not for the reason you stated Nazdrag. His "unjoinable status" does not apply, because an IC is not attempting to join him, he already is joined with him as Mordrak is nothing more than an upgrade character to the Ghost Knight unit. There is nothing in the rule that would force the IC out.

Mordrak's rule states that he becomes a single unit again when the Ghost Knights die. So he is actually forced to leave the unit, not the IC.

Yep you are right. Bad expression on my part. If Mordrak is part of a Ghost Knight unit and an IC joins the ghost knights, after death of all ghost knights the IC would have still joined the ghost knights, but Mordrak is then Mordrak, and since the Ghost Knights are dead, the IC has no longer anyone it could be joined to.

Having reread Modraks rules I have to say that there is an unresolved rules issue that does need an FAQ. His rule says he becomes a unit of 1 when there are no more Ghost Knights. The IC is not a Ghost Knight (for instance no Stealth). That means that Mordrak becomes a unit of 1, but it doesn't say ICs are forced out when a model becomes a unit that is always one. It just says he can not join it and he is already joined. All the other models have not been killed because Mordrak is still alive.

Yep the IC is not a Ghost Knight. But neither is Mordrak. But since the IC joined the Ghost Knights there is no one left in the unit it joined, because Mordrak is no longer part of the unit of Ghost Knights as he reverts to being Mordrak.