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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Greyknight codex

The hive tyrant is a member of a unit containing 1 - 4 models, so can ne joined by an IC at any time. Same as just because you havent bought 2 carnifex doesnt mean you cannot add a prime to a single carnifex

Sorry but you're wrong on this one, the tyrant and his HG are not a single unit (both the codex and FAQ make this clear). The tyrant is a single model (non-independent) character that can never join or be joined following the normal rules, then there's a unit that has a codex specific rule that allows him to join them via the specific>general rule, that unit is tyrant guard and it has a squad size of 1-2 making it perfectly legal for IC to join and leave it at any time. And besides once the tyrant joins them they don't become a Hive Tyrant unit, they're a Tyrant Guard unit with a tyrant joined to them.

OTOH a carnifex brood has a squad size of 1-3 and as such isn't a unit that's always one model, making it joinable by IC.

So they're not a single unit?
So I can move a Tyrant out of cogency of his Guard? They're two units after all.
You can shoot the Tyrant specifically? He's his own unit ya know.
When he rolls Look Out Sir!, where can the wounds be reallocated to?

The Tyrant can be a member of a unit. Therefore it is not always a single model unit. Therefore an IC can join a solo Tyrant.

Check the FAQ for all your answers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
The Tyrant can be a member of a unit. Therefore it is not always a single model unit. Therefore an IC can join a solo Tyrant.

Um no.
See all IC are one model units by you'r logic they could always join each other, but if that broke no rule then why did GW made a specific rule specifying they can to trump the no joining single models rule.

 HoverBoy wrote:
Check the FAQ for all your answers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
The Tyrant can be a member of a unit. Therefore it is not always a single model unit. Therefore an IC can join a solo Tyrant.

Um no.
See all IC are one model units by you'r logic they could always join each other, but if that broke no rule then why did GW made a specific rule specifying they can to trump the no joining single models rule.

Page 35 – Tyrant Guard, Shieldwall.
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to read “A
single Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) may join a unit
of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it had the Independent Character
special rule and, while part of the unit, is treated as such for
the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision
Shots and Precision Strikes”
See the bold bit above

So the answer is you are wrong on this, sorry. When an IC joins a unit it becomes a member of the unit for all rules purposes - a tyrant just has some exceptions.

It is still one unit

Yes a unit of Tyrant Guard.
A unit of Hive Tyrant always consist of one model.

rigeld2 wrote:
So they're not a single unit?
So I can move a Tyrant out of cogency of his Guard? They're two units after all.
You can shoot the Tyrant specifically? He's his own unit ya know.
When he rolls Look Out Sir!, where can the wounds be reallocated to?

The Tyrant can be a member of a unit. Therefore it is not always a single model unit. Therefore an IC can join a solo Tyrant.

I had to reverse on this one, they are one unit. And for the record the Tyrant could move out of cogency with the guard if there wasn't a special rule that prevented it.

The thing you are getting wrong is that when you combine a unit of 2 Tyrant Guard and a Tyrant you end up with a unit of Tyrant Guard that has 3 models in it, not a unit of Hive Tyrants with 3 models in it.

A Tyrant unit always has one model in it (per its composition). The rule states that ICs can not join a unit that always consists of one model. The fact that the unit can join other units has no bearing on that rule.

 HoverBoy wrote:
Yes a unit of Tyrant Guard.
A unit of Hive Tyrant always consist of one model.

So not two units, as you claimed above?

hoverboy wrote:
Sorry but you're wrong on this one, the tyrant and his HG are not a single unit (both the codex and FAQ make this clear

Can we square away your error here, as the FAQ clearly states the exact opposite? Then we can move on to why the HT is not always a unit consisting of one model, because he is a unit that can consist of 4 models.

They are two separate unit entries.
If he had the actual IC rule he would have a something that trumps the no joining single model units, but he only gains that once he joins the guard.

Irrelevant. They are a single unit when joined.

A single unit of 1 - 4 models

So, is the HT a unit (not unit ENTRY, but UNIT) that always consists of 1 model?

No

What about the fact the HT joins the Tyrant Guards "as if it was an IC"?

Surely that would break the idea that the HT is actually a member of the Tyrant Guard unit or vice verse.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Irrelevant. They are a single unit when joined.

A single unit of 1 - 4 models

So, is the HT a unit (not unit ENTRY, but UNIT) that always consists of 1 model?

Yes.
The unit that has a size of 1-3 is Hive Guard, not Hive Tyrant.

Quick question. How many models does a unit of Hive tyrant consist of?

I'm not asking about a unit of Tyrant Guard that may or may not have a Hive Tyrant attached, I'm asking about the Hive Tyrant unit itself.

If the answer is 1-X, then an IC can join a Hive Tyrant unit.

However, since a unit of Hive Tyrants always consists of a single model, an IC cannot join it.

 HoverBoy wrote:
See all IC are one model units by you'r logic they could always join each other, but if that broke no rule then why did GW made a specific rule specifying they can to trump the no joining single models rule.

Your assumption is that GW never writes redundant rules.
That's a bad assumption.

Happyjew wrote:
Quick question. How many models does a unit of Hive tyrant consist of?

I'm not asking about a unit of Tyrant Guard that may or may not have a Hive Tyrant attached, I'm asking about the Hive Tyrant unit itself.

If the answer is 1-X, then an IC can join a Hive Tyrant unit.

However, since a unit of Hive Tyrants always consists of a single model, an IC cannot join it.

Thank you for helping put in english what i can't.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Irrelevant. They are a single unit when joined.

A single unit of 1 - 4 models

So, is the HT a unit (not unit ENTRY, but UNIT) that always consists of 1 model?

No

Then by your logic the HT is always allowed to be joined by an IC because a Tyrant can be killed and would then be a unit with no models in it (and a unit that can have no models in it is not a unit that always consists of 1 model).

 Gloomfang wrote:
A Tyrant unit always has one model in it (per its composition).

So composition is the absolute rule? Is that your argument?
(Asking for clarification prior to rebuttal)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:
Quick question. How many models does a unit of Hive tyrant consist of?

I'm not asking about a unit of Tyrant Guard that may or may not have a Hive Tyrant attached, I'm asking about the Hive Tyrant unit itself.

If the answer is 1-X, then an IC can join a Hive Tyrant unit.

However, since a unit of Hive Tyrants always consists of a single model, an IC cannot join it.

The Hive Tyrant is, by definition, a normal member of the unit.

Right, a normal member of a Tyrant Guard unit which consists of 1-3 models prior to anything joining them.

How many models does a Hive Tyrant unit consist of? You've yet to answer the question.

Once the Hive Tyrant MODEL joins a Tyrant Guard UNIT he is no longer a part of a Hive Tyrant UNIT, there is no rules legal way to get a Hive Tyrant UNIT with more than one member, but there is a legal way to get a Hive Tyrant MODEL inside a Tyrant Guard UNIT with more than one member.

Happyjew wrote:
How many models does a Hive Tyrant unit consist of? You've yet to answer the question.

Sometimes 1. Sometimes the unit ceases to exist by itself and coexists with the Tyrant Guard unit, making it a unit of more than 1.

Happyjew wrote:
Right, a normal member of a Tyrant Guard unit which consists of 1-3 models prior to anything joining them.

How many models does a Hive Tyrant unit consist of? You've yet to answer the question.

Except it is not the unit entry that you are asked to look at, but the unit. The unit entry may only say 1, but the unit of HT+TG is what matters

rigeld2 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
How many models does a Hive Tyrant unit consist of? You've yet to answer the question.

Sometimes 1. Sometimes the unit ceases to exist by itself and coexists with the Tyrant Guard unit, making it a unit of more than 1.

Um no then the MODEL becomes a part of the Tyrant Guard UNIT, the two units don't magically meld, the character is absorbed in the unit he joins and becomes a part of it for all rules purpoces.
You don't get a Hive Tyrant/Tyrant Guard unit, you get a Tyrant Guard unit with a character in it.

 HoverBoy wrote:
Once the Hive Tyrant MODEL joins a Tyrant Guard UNIT he is no longer a part of a Hive Tyrant UNIT, there is no rules legal way to get a Hive Tyrant UNIT with more than one member, but there is a legal way to get a Hive Tyrant MODEL inside a Tyrant Guard UNIT with more than one member.

CAPS don't HELP your POINT. And it's considered rude. Please stop.

Please support your assertion that the Hive Tyrant unit ceases to exist completely when he joins the Tyrant Guard - the FAQ would imply differently as the whole bundle is worth 2 VPs. There are other rules that would imply differently as well.

Sorry don't know how to bold stuff...

 HoverBoy wrote:
Sorry don't know how to bold stuff...

You can either not use the quick reply and have access to the bold, italic, underline, etc. buttons above your posting area, or surround words with [ b] and [ /b] removing the spaces.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Page 35 – Tyrant Guard, Shieldwall.
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to read “A
single Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) may join a unit
of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it had the Independent Character
special rule and, while part of the unit, is treated as such for
the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision
Shots and Precision Strikes”
See the bold bit above

By reading this we are referenced to the IC USR.
There it says that a character is a part of the joined unit for all rules purposes. Therefore he is in fact a member of a Tyrant Guard unit once he joins one.

Yes. Meaning he is not always a unit consisting of a single model

The unit entry is not what you are directed to look at.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
A Tyrant unit always has one model in it (per its composition).

So composition is the absolute rule? Is that your argument?
(Asking for clarification prior to rebuttal)

No I am saying that a model and a unit are two diffrent things. When the Tyrant joins the Guard the Tyrant model joins the Guard unit. While he is part of that Guard unit the Tyrant unit does not exist. That is why they had to state that a Tyrant and his Guard count as 2 VP, becasue otherwise you would only get 1 VP for the Tyrant Guard unit.

 Gloomfang wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
A Tyrant unit always has one model in it (per its composition).

So composition is the absolute rule? Is that your argument?
(Asking for clarification prior to rebuttal)

No I am saying that a model and a unit are two diffrent things. When the Tyrant joins the Guard the Tyrant model joins the Guard unit. While he is part of that Guard unit the Tyrant unit does not exist. That is why they had to state that a Tyrant and his Guard count as 2 VP, becasue otherwise you would only get 1 VP for the Tyrant Guard unit.

Well no that's how it is for all IC, but since the HT is an unusual case of a normal character acting like an IC they saw it necessary to make clear.

The problem is that an IC cannot join a unit that always consists of a single model. Hive Tyrant (the unit) is a unit that always consists of a single model. Therefore, an IC cannot join a Hive Tyrant unit. This is not to say they cannot join a Hive Tyrant model, just a Hive Tyrant unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Greyknight codex

The hive tyrant is a member of a unit containing 1 - 4 models, so can ne joined by an IC at any time. Same as just because you havent bought 2 carnifex doesnt mean you cannot add a prime to a single carnifex

Show me anywhere that it says the HT unit composition is 1-4 Hive Tyrants. You wont find it.


Mordrak.... "Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form a unit, with Mordrak acting as an uprade character until such a point as the Ghost Knights are slain, at which point he reverts to being a single model unit in his own right....


So Mordrak has a rule that changes his status from a unit of 1 to a unit of Ghost Knights with him as an upgrade character.