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So I've seen the pairing of a prime with carnifex squads for shenanigans. Can a prime join other monstrous creatures as well. In particular, I'm looking to join a prime to my tervignon troop selection which is outflanking due to tyrant hive commander. Is this legal, or is the prime only allowed to join a carnifex squad because it is a squad?

Per the IC rules, an IC can't join a unit which always consists of a single model; this is the same as 5th.

Carnifexes can be purchased in squads, though, so they're okay. As you guessed.

I thought I saw somewhere in the faq that the tyranid monstrous creatures were Characters now, and it says specifically that you can create supers squads of independent characters. So even though the single monstrous creatures are characters, they still can't be joined?

Independent Characters can join each other because the IC rules say they can. Characters are completely different and being one has no bearing on joinability.

Blast, brilliant idea foiled again by pesky rules.

The farthest stretch you can do with this is have a Tyranid Prime join a Hive Tyrant or Swarmlord. Yes, the Hive Tyrant is a singular monstrous creature and cannot be joined by ICs. You then buy a Tyrant Guard for the Hive Tyrant. With the way shieldwall works, the Hive Tyrant joins the Guard, not the other way around, so the Tyranid Prime is free to join them as well, as the Guard are not MCs.

Have fun with that. :-)

Except the Swarmlord/Hive Tyrant is by definition not always a single model unit, so can be joined by ICs even without Guard.

The Prime can join a brood of Carnifexen.

rigeld2 wrote:
Except the Swarmlord/Hive Tyrant is by definition not always a single model unit, so can be joined by ICs even without Guard.

Actually they are single. The entry for them reads Composition 1 Hive Tyrant, or 1 Unique (SL)

The exception is that the IC is joining the guard as is the Tyrant.

If you really want t o get technical, all IC's are units that only consist of one model. However, ICs have permission to join other ICs.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Except the Swarmlord/Hive Tyrant is by definition not always a single model unit, so can be joined by ICs even without Guard.

Actually they are single. The entry for them reads Composition 1 Hive Tyrant, or 1 Unique (SL)

The exception is that the IC is joining the guard as is the Tyrant.

Except they aren't always single - because they can join Tyrant Guard.

How many Hive Tyrants can you buy in a squad of Hive Tyrants?

 Mannahnin wrote:
How many Hive Tyrants can you buy in a squad of Hive Tyrants?

That would be relevant if that's what the IC rule cared about.

While that is a generally true statement, it does not affect the way the rule is applied.

The HT is always a unit of 1 model. You will never see a unit of 3 HT ( although that would be awesome). An IC cannot join a unit that always consists of 1 model.

The Guard's rule that the HT can join them doesnt change the fact that the HT is still a unit of 1. Nor does it make the HT an IC. So neither of these will overrule the IC rules that an IC cannot join a unit that always consists of a single model.

Fragile wrote:
While that is a generally true statement, it does not affect the way the rule is applied.

The HT is always a unit of 1 model. You will never see a unit of 3 HT ( although that would be awesome). An IC cannot join a unit that always consists of 1 model.

The Guard's rule that the HT can join them doesnt change the fact that the HT is still a unit of 1. Nor does it make the HT an IC. So neither of these will overrule the IC rules that an IC cannot join a unit that always consists of a single model.

Is the Hive Tyrant always a unit of one model? Yes?

So why must those two Guard over there stay in coherency with him? They're obviously different units according to you...

Perhaps you should read the Shieldwall rule, it will explain it for you.

For the same reason a unit with an attached IC must stay in coherency.

The HT/Swarmlord is *always* a unit of one model.

You may also buy a second unit, of Tyrant guard.

The HT/SL *may* join them at deployment, just like an IC joins a tac squad at deployment

But it is still a unit of one model, which is attaching to another unit. Just like an IC does.

The only reason and IC can join an IC, is because they have a specific rule allowing it. There is no such rule for the HT.


The TGuard is not a retinue, it is simply a unit that is unlocked when you take an HT. Like an honor guard.

The Hive Tyrant joins the Tyrant Guard as if he were an IC. He's a unit which is always purchased as a unit of one model, and has a rule allowing him to join another unit. Similarly to the IC rule, except unlike ICs, he doesn't have a specific rule saying an IC can join him.

However, a Tyranid Prime can join a Tyrant Guard unit because that is not a unit that only ever consists of one model.

So you could theoretically end up with a Prime and a Tyrant joined together if the Prime joined while there were Tyrant Guard in the unit, that were later killed off.

 Grey Templar wrote:
However, a Tyranid Prime can join a Tyrant Guard unit because that is not a unit that only ever consists of one model.

So you could theoretically end up with a Prime and a Tyrant joined together if the Prime joined while there were Tyrant Guard in the unit, that were later killed off.

Exactly, but without the Guard there to do it, a Prime couldn't join a HT otherwise.

Fragile wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
However, a Tyranid Prime can join a Tyrant Guard unit because that is not a unit that only ever consists of one model.

So you could theoretically end up with a Prime and a Tyrant joined together if the Prime joined while there were Tyrant Guard in the unit, that were later killed off.

Exactly, but without the Guard there to do it, a Prime couldn't join a HT otherwise.

Correct.

BRB page 39 wrote:units that always consist of a single model

That's what IC's cannot join. A Hive Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model - we know this because sometimes it can have Tyrant Guard attached to it.

I may not be making my argument clearly because I'm going through withdrawl from painkillers right now, but this has been hashed out many times before in YMDC.

rigeld2 wrote:

BRB page 39 wrote:units that always consist of a single model

That's what IC's cannot join. A Hive Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model - we know this because sometimes it can have Tyrant Guard attached to it.

I may not be making my argument clearly because I'm going through withdrawl from painkillers right now, but this has been hashed out many times before in YMDC.

rigeld, you have it backwards. Tyrant Guard don't attach to the Hive Tyrant, the Hive Tyrant attaches to the Tyrant Guard. I did e-mail this question to the FAQ team, so hopefully they respond (not that it matters much here).

Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

BRB page 39 wrote:units that always consist of a single model

That's what IC's cannot join. A Hive Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model - we know this because sometimes it can have Tyrant Guard attached to it.

I may not be making my argument clearly because I'm going through withdrawl from painkillers right now, but this has been hashed out many times before in YMDC.

rigeld, you have it backwards. Tyrant Guard don't attach to the Hive Tyrant, the Hive Tyrant attaches to the Tyrant Guard. I did e-mail this question to the FAQ team, so hopefully they respond (not that it matters much here).

Irrelevant who attaches to who. It's not always a unit that consists of a single model because sometimes it's in a unit with Tyrant Guard.

At which point it is a normal member of a unit of Tyrant Guard.

coredump wrote:
But it is still a unit of one model, which is attaching to another unit. Just like an IC does.

An independent character joined to another unit is no longer a unit of one model in its own right, but is a member of the larger unit.

And frankly? Without that piece of the argument, without the notion that an IC joined to a unit is still a unit of one model, your argument falls apart completely.

Happyjew wrote:
At which point it is a normal member of a unit of Tyrant Guard.

...Which obliterates your argument.

rigeld2 wrote:
Irrelevant who attaches to who. It's not always a unit that consists of a single model because sometimes it's in a unit with Tyrant Guard.

Unfotunatly that is not true. They are 2 units that are always deployed together. It is why the unit is worth 2 VP.
One of the units is always a unit of 1 (the Tyrant) and the other unit can consist of 1-3 models (Guard). You can attach an IC to the Guard, but not the Tyrant.

Just because there is an exception in the Codex on how the guard unit attaches to the Tyrant via a modified IC rule does not make it one unit OR make the Tyrant an IC for any other unit other than the Tyrant Guard. If the guard were an upgrade then you would be right, but they are not.

If you really want to get to the heart of the matter you just have to ask a simple question. Tyrant gets shot and you want a Prime that is attached to the Guard to take the hit. What is your LOS! roll?

 Gloomfang wrote:
Just because there is an exception in the Codex on how the guard unit attaches to the Tyrant via a modified IC rule does not make it one unit OR make the Tyrant an IC for any other unit other than the Tyrant Guard. If the guard were an upgrade then you would be right, but they are not.

The Tyrant is in a unit.
There is more than one member of the unit.
Therefore the Tyrant is not always a unit that consists of a single model.

If you really want to get to the heart of the matter you just have to ask a simple question. Tyrant gets shot and you want a Prime that is attached to the Guard to take the hit. What is your LOS! roll?

2+.

 Gloomfang wrote:
It is why the unit is worth 2 VP.

The 2 VP thing is a function of acting like an IC, and is an exception to the normal rules.

 Gloomfang wrote:
Just because there is an exception in the Codex on how the guard unit attaches to the Tyrant via a modified IC rule does not make it one unit...

Yes, it does. Because that's exactly what the referenced IC rule accomplishes. You aren't "two units, with lots of exceptions", you're "one unit, with few exceptions".

 Gloomfang wrote:
If you really want to get to the heart of the matter you just have to ask a simple question. Tyrant gets shot and you want a Prime that is attached to the Guard to take the hit. What is your LOS! roll?

I would say 4+, but it's kind of debateable. GW has never made entirely clear just how much of an IC the Tyrant is, ruling two different ways in the FAQ.

EDIT: I'm amused that rigeld2 and I, arguing the same side of the discussion, gave different answers to your "heart of the matter" question. Obviously we don't think it gets to the heart of it at all!

So, here's my "heart of the matter" question: is the Hive Tyrant ever considered a model in a unit of more than one model? If "yes", then the condition "always a unit of one model" fails.

GW really should just Errata the Tyrant to have the IC special rule. Maybe say it loses it if it gains Wings.