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 Jackal wrote:
Thats good, but again, just because it says "and" does not mean its going to allways add in more, ontop of what you have at current.

while part of the unit, is treated as such for
the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision
Shots and Precision Strikes”.

It actually takes away alot of benefits/rules of being an IC.

Again, irrelevant - because all that matters (for this argument) is that the Tyrant joins the unit as an IC. And it does - exactly as one.

But he does not do exactly as one for everything, as the next part of shieldwall removes this.

You cant really ignore a 2nd part to try and prove a point.
Because it really does prove nothing, well, except that your not fully reading a rule.
And "joins as an IC" is not the same as "is an IC"

rigeld2 wrote:
So you're all saying that:
Draigo joins a solo paladin.
Solo paladin is killed.
Game ends before the next movement phase.

VP is not earned for the solo paladin?

If the unit the IC joined is killed the IC becomes a unit of one at the start of the next phase, not the next movement phase.

So if the game was ended midphase (like at dice down at a tourny) then VP would not be earned for/the solo as the unit would not be dead when you check for VP.

EDIT: It is at the start of the next phase, not the end of the current phase. Result is the same.

 Gloomfang wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So you're all saying that:
Draigo joins a solo paladin.
Solo paladin is killed.
Game ends before the next movement phase.

VP is not earned for the solo paladin?

If the unit the IC joined is killed the IC becomes a unit of one at the end of the phase, not the next movement phase.

So if the game was ended midphase (like at dice down at a tourny) then VP would not be earned for/the solo as the unit would not be dead when you check for VP.

Where's the permission for the IC to leave the unit before the next movement phase?

rigeld2 wrote:
Where's the permission for the IC to leave the unit before the next movement phase?

Got it slightly wrong. It is the start of the next phase, not the end of the current one. So if the unit dies in the shooting phase, the IC becomes a unit of one at the start of the Assualt phase. Still if you are at Dice down and the next phase doesn't start then Draigo is still part of the unit and the unit is technicaly not destroyed.

Refrence:
Pg 39. ".....If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase."

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So you're all saying that:
Draigo joins a solo paladin.
Solo paladin is killed.
Game ends before the next movement phase.

VP is not earned for the solo paladin?

If the unit the IC joined is killed the IC becomes a unit of one at the end of the phase, not the next movement phase.

So if the game was ended midphase (like at dice down at a tourny) then VP would not be earned for/the solo as the unit would not be dead when you check for VP.

Where's the permission for the IC to leave the unit before the next movement phase?

On page 39 where it says once the IC is the last survivor in the unit he's his own unit again, as such no members of the joined unit remain and thus it is destroyed.
With that said i believe that claiming that no VP are scored for dead Tyrant Guard is just as stupid as a prime joining a solo HT, so i'll look into that too (although i fear GW may have actually goofed on that).

 Gloomfang wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Where's the permission for the IC to leave the unit before the next movement phase?

Got it slightly wrong. It is the start of the next phase, not the end of the current one. So if the unit dies in the shooting phase, the IC becomes a unit of one at the start of the Assualt phase. Still if you are at Dice down and the next phase doesn't start then Draigo is still part of the unit and the unit is technicaly not destroyed.

Or if you end turn 5 and don't start turn 6.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Where's the permission for the IC to leave the unit before the next movement phase?

Got it slightly wrong. It is the start of the next phase, not the end of the current one. So if the unit dies in the shooting phase, the IC becomes a unit of one at the start of the Assualt phase. Still if you are at Dice down and the next phase doesn't start then Draigo is still part of the unit and the unit is technicaly not destroyed.

Or if you end turn 5 and don't start turn 6.

That would be true too. Need to keep that in mind.

Hive Tryant Unit Composition is listed as 1 in the codex. That is a pretty good case that it is consider unit of always one model.

barnowl wrote:
Hive Tryant Unit Composition is listed as 1 in the codex. That is a pretty good case that it is consider unit of always one model.

As does Mordrak.

rigeld2 wrote:

barnowl wrote:
Hive Tryant Unit Composition is listed as 1 in the codex. That is a pretty good case that it is consider unit of always one model.

As does Mordrak.

Yes, but he has a special rule that let's you add models to his unit.

I do think we have covered the whole can Primes attach to lone Tyrants question though.

Think I only had to change my mind about something twice. I had the right answer, but for non RAW reasons.

 Gloomfang wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

barnowl wrote:
Hive Tryant Unit Composition is listed as 1 in the codex. That is a pretty good case that it is consider unit of always one model.

As does Mordrak.

Yes, but he has a special rule that let's you add models to his unit.

I do think we have covered the whole can Primes attach to lone Tyrants question though.

Think I only had to change my mind about something twice. I had the right answer, but for non RAW reasons.

I don't think you have. Well, not to the point where we're in agreement anyway.

What point do you disagree with? Last I knew it was what is the unit that was formed when you join a tyrant with a unit of Guards.

 Gloomfang wrote:
What point do you disagree with? Last I knew it was what is the unit that was formed when you join a tyrant with a unit of Guards.

Your assumption that the Tyrant unit ceases to exist when he joins the Guard is one point we disagree on.

Hive Tyrant (the unit) is an Independent Character and joins another unit (the fact that it must be Guard is irrelevant).
It's therefore not a unit that always consists of a single model.

Ehm who actually thinks Mordrak on his own can be joined? Is he an IC? No. Does he always consist of a single model? Yes. So no joining if he is alone. Same applies to Hive Tyrant.

Yes Hive Tyrant + Guard is Hive Tyrant + Guard not only Guard. But does that mean the Hive Tyrant unit extends? No. Because it is neither a hive tyrant unit nor a guard unit. It is a unit consisting of a hive tyrant and guards. And if you want to join, you join the guards.

Pretty simple.

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
Ehm who actually thinks Mordrak on his own can be joined? Is he an IC? No. Does he always consist of a single model? Yes. So no joining if he is alone.

Except you're wrong. He's absolutely not a model that is always a single model unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
What point do you disagree with? Last I knew it was what is the unit that was formed when you join a tyrant with a unit of Guards.

Your assumption that the Tyrant unit ceases to exist when he joins the Guard is one point we disagree on.

Hive Tyrant (the unit) is an Independent Character and joins another unit (the fact that it must be Guard is irrelevant).
It's therefore not a unit that always consists of a single model.

So you are saying that it is two units?

That would not work with pg.39 about him counting as part of the unit for all rules, except the character rules.
And even if that did somehow work, you are not adding guard to the tyrant unit as both the Shieldwall and IC rules say that he joins the guards unit, not he joins thiers.

Just show me how the guard end up being considered part of the Tyrant unit (and not the tyrant model in the same unit with the guard) and I might agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
Ehm who actually thinks Mordrak on his own can be joined? Is he an IC? No. Does he always consist of a single model? Yes. So no joining if he is alone.

Except you're wrong. He's absolutely not a model that is always a single model unit.

Yes he is. When he is not a unit of 1 he is an upgrade character in a unit of ghosts just like his rule says. It even states when he is alone he is a unit of one.

And folks who think you can have a unit made of more than one unit need to read the rules onForming a Unit from pg 3 and then the rules for movement on page 10. You have to move one unit at a time and you must maintain coherency. That is impossible if a unit can consist of more than one unit as you would have to move the unit of 1 seprately from the unit it joined. They would never be able to move.

I'm saying its one combined unit. There no movement issue as you nominate the single combined unit to move and do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gloomfang wrote:

Yes he is. When he is not a unit of 1 he is an upgrade character in a unit of ghosts just like his rule says. It even states when he is alone he is a unit of one.

So he's always a unit of one, except that time when he's not.
If he takes a wound and places a Ghost Knight is he still a unit of one? Can an IC join him? What happens when the Ghost Knight dies? It's even more uncomfortable than the Hive Tyrant question because you can't argue that the IC joined a different unit - the IC joined Mordrak.

If he takes a woundthen he is not considered a unit of one, he is part of a unit of ghosts. The IC can then join that unit of ghosts. When the Ghost knight dies the unit is still considered a unit of ghost knights because the IC counts as a ghost knight to Mordrak and that means he is still just an upgrade character in the unit. That means that the IC can stay as the upgrade character in the ghost unit is still alive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm saying its one combined unit. There no movement issue as you nominate the single combined unit to move and do so.

Ok so where are the rules that let you combine units? I only see rules joining other units.

Gloomfang, let me ask you this. Stepping away from the whole Hive Tyrant issue for a moment.

You have a Tyranid Prime and the Parasite of Mortrex. Both have the Independent Character special rule and as such can join each other. You move the Parasite within 2" of the Prime and declare that the Parasite is joining the Prime.

Do you have a Tyranid Prime unit or would you call it something else?

Happyjew wrote:
Gloomfang, let me ask you this. Stepping away from the whole Hive Tyrant issue for a moment.

You have a Tyranid Prime and the Parasite of Mortrex. Both have the Independent Character special rule and as such can join each other. You move the Parasite within 2" of the Prime and declare that the Parasite is joining the Prime.

Do you have a Tyranid Prime unit or would you call it something else?

They are a Multi-character unit per pg 39.

rigeld2 wrote:

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
Ehm who actually thinks Mordrak on his own can be joined? Is he an IC? No. Does he always consist of a single model? Yes. So no joining if he is alone.

Except you're wrong. He's absolutely not a model that is always a single model unit.

ICs are units that always consist of a single model, just like most vehicles and most monstrous creatures, as cited in the first paragraph of the IC rules. The only reason an IC can join another IC is because the IC rules grant specific permission to do that, which is an exception.

The fact that an IC or Hive Tyrant can join another unit and become part of it (and an IC can join another IC to form a multi-character unit) doesn't change the fact that those units always consist of a single model. When they join another unit, they become temporarily a part of that unit instead.

 Mannahnin wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
Ehm who actually thinks Mordrak on his own can be joined? Is he an IC? No. Does he always consist of a single model? Yes. So no joining if he is alone.

Except you're wrong. He's absolutely not a model that is always a single model unit.

ICs are units that always consist of a single model, just like most vehicles and most monstrous creatures, as cited in the first paragraph of the IC rules. The only reason an IC can join another IC is because the IC rules grant specific permission to do that, which is an exception.

The fact that an IC or Hive Tyrant can join another unit and become part of it (and an IC can join another IC to form a multi-character unit) doesn't change the fact that those units always consist of a single model. When they join another unit, they become temporarily a part of that unit instead.

Mordrak isn't an IC, which it seems like you think he is by your first paragraph.
Can you cite the rule saying the Hive Tyrant unit ceases to exist?
The FAQ implies it does not (since there's 2VP there), and any IC joining a unit, if they were to not be a unit anymore, would not be worth VP individually.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
Ehm who actually thinks Mordrak on his own can be joined? Is he an IC? No. Does he always consist of a single model? Yes. So no joining if he is alone.

Except you're wrong. He's absolutely not a model that is always a single model unit.

ICs are units that always consist of a single model, just like most vehicles and most monstrous creatures, as cited in the first paragraph of the IC rules. The only reason an IC can join another IC is because the IC rules grant specific permission to do that, which is an exception.

The fact that an IC or Hive Tyrant can join another unit and become part of it (and an IC can join another IC to form a multi-character unit) doesn't change the fact that those units always consist of a single model. When they join another unit, they become temporarily a part of that unit instead.

Mordrak isn't an IC, which it seems like you think he is by your first paragraph.
Can you cite the rule saying the Hive Tyrant unit ceases to exist?
The FAQ implies it does not (since there's 2VP there), and any IC joining a unit, if they were to not be a unit anymore, would not be worth VP individually.

Actually it's on you to prove how one can be two.
Every time an IC joins a unit you have a single unit with more than one VP in it, GW made it clear the tyrant and his guards aren't any different.

It seems pretty simple to me:
Hive Tyrant is a single model who is not an IC.
Tyranid Prime is an IC.
Tyrant Guard are a unit of multiple models.
The Prime can join the Hive Guard due the the IC rule.
Tyrant Guard have a special rule allowing a Hive Tyrant to join them.
The Hive Tyrant is always a unit of a single model, with the explicit exception to the normal rules of when it joins the Tyrant Guard. Given this is a special rule, not an IC rule, it does not follow all the normal rules for IC's or whatnot in the BRB.
When the Hive Tyrant joins the Tyrant Guard, he still does not count as an IC. He uses the 'IC can join a unit' rules to determine how he joins the unit (ie, needing to be within range). He gains some of the abilities of being an IC.

If a Hive Tyrant joins the Tyrant Guard, you now have a Tyrant Guard unit with an attached Hive Tyrant. You do not have 2 units, and you do not have a unit of Hive Tyrants.
A Prime can join the unit, because he's an IC, and you now have a unit of Tyrant Guard with an attached Prime IC. You do not have a unit of Primes.

But a Prime cannot join the Hive Tyrant, because the Tyrant is always a unit of 1.

 HoverBoy wrote:

Actually it's on you to prove how one can be two.
Every time an IC joins a unit you have a single unit with more than one VP in it, GW made it clear the tyrant and his guards aren't any different.

You're contradicting yourself.
If its always one unit, how is it worth 2 VP?

rigeld2 wrote:

 HoverBoy wrote:

Actually it's on you to prove how one can be two.
Every time an IC joins a unit you have a single unit with more than one VP in it, GW made it clear the tyrant and his guards aren't any different.

You're contradicting yourself.
If its always one unit, how is it worth 2 VP?

ICs are worth one VP each because the rules say that they are worth one VP. (pg127)
The unit of Tyrant Guard and the Tyrant are worth 2 VP because the FAQ says they are worth 2VP. (Nid FAQ).

If you want to know why they did it, they probably just intended for the Tyrant to be treated like an IC for VP purposes. But it really doesn't matter. Its worth 2VP because they rules say its worth 2VP.

First of all: Mordrak is Mordrak and Ghost Knights are Ghost Knights. If somehow a ghost knight appears we have a unit of Ghost Knights with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character to the unit of ghost knights. Did the unit "Mordrak" now extend? No, we have as you correctly indicated, a combined unit. But this unit is no longer "Mordrak". So indeed the unit "Mordrak" always consist of a single model. The unit "Mordrak+Ghost Knights" or better: "Ghost Knights with Mordrak as part of them" is a different thing. So, yeah during the co-existence of those two units the unit "Mordrak" ceases to exist.

Ghost Knights are of course joinable, so if you have an IC there, you can join a ghost knight. If the ghost knights die and Mordrak survives with an IC attached previously, he will return to his original status and the IC is then on is own as well since it can't join Mordrak and the unit it had joined (the ghost Knights) is gone.

The facts are clear, the codex states Grand Master Mordrak's unit composition is 1 (unique). Now the other way round: If you buy Ghost Knights as well, is this unit called Grandmaster Mordrak and consist of 2-6 models?

 -Nazdreg- wrote:

First of all: Mordrak is Mordrak and Ghost Knights are Ghost Knights. If somehow a ghost knight appears we have a unit of Ghost Knights with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character to the unit of ghost knights. Did the unit "Mordrak" now extend? No, we have as you correctly indicated, a combined unit. But this unit is no longer "Mordrak". So indeed the unit "Mordrak" always consist of a single model. The unit "Mordrak+Ghost Knights" or better: "Ghost Knights with Mordrak as part of them" is a different thing. So, yeah during the co-existence of those two units the unit "Mordrak" ceases to exist.

Ghost Knights are of course joinable, so if you have an IC there, you can join a ghost knight. If the ghost knights die and Mordrak survives with an IC attached previously, he will return to his original status and the IC is then on is own as well since it can't join Mordrak and the unit it had joined (the ghost Knights) is gone.

The facts are clear, the codex states Grand Master Mordrak's unit composition is 1 (unique). Now the other way round: If you buy Ghost Knights as well, is this unit called Grandmaster Mordrak and consist of 2-6 models?

I think you were right on up until the bold part. When the IC joins the the unit he becomes part of it for all intents and purposes. Mordrak and the IC could still operate together since Mordrak was an upgrade Character to a unit that the IC joined. If the IC left, then I dont think he would be able to rejoin Mordrak.

Typically, if the word shenanigans is used, its a safe bet to go the other way on the rule in question...