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Pyrian wrote:

EDIT: I'm amused that rigeld2 and I, arguing the same side of the discussion, gave different answers to your "heart of the matter" question. Obviously we don't think it gets to the heart of it at all!

Page 35 – Tyrant Guard, Shieldwall.
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to read “A
single Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) may join a unit
of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it had the Independent Character
special rule and, while part of the unit, is treated as such for
the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision
Shots and Precision Strikes”.

Since it's treated as an IC for LoS! rolls, it gets a 2+.

No the issue is that people are thinking that the Tyrant has some special rule that lets it act as an IC, and it doesn't.

The Tyrant Guard have a rule (Shieldwall) that allows a Tyrant to join them and the Guard treats it like it is an IC that can never leave the unit. You attach the Tyrant to the Guard, not the other way around.

*EDIT* From rereading the rule it looks like Shieldwall rule does grant IC status to the Tyrant so the Prime will get to do a LOS! on a 2+.

If you do not take Tyrant Guard then you have no Shieldwall rule. Without the Shieldwall rule the Tyrant is always a unit of one and an IC can not attach to it.

 Gloomfang wrote:
Without the Shieldwall rule the Tyrant is always a unit of one and an IC can not attach to it.

So there are times when the Tyrant is not a unit of one?

Ah, good catch on the FAQ amendment, I'd missed that.

 Gloomfang wrote:
No the issue is that people are thinking that the Tyrant has some special rule that lets it act as an IC, and it doesn't.

...

Without the Shieldwall rule the Tyrant is always a unit of one and an IC can not attach to it.

I think the issue is rather that we have very different notions of the word "always". For example, I don't think a post-list-build answer to what counts under "always" can possibly be correct, because if you choose to take a single Carnifex in your list then that Carnifex would then "always" be a unit of one model. But since you could have taken a unit of more than one Carnifex, then it's not always a single model - that's the most basic use of the distiction.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Without the Shieldwall rule the Tyrant is always a unit of one and an IC can not attach to it.

So there are times when the Tyrant is not a unit of one?

This. The Tyrant is, at points, NOT a unit of one. Therefore an IC can join at any time.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Without the Shieldwall rule the Tyrant is always a unit of one and an IC can not attach to it.

So there are times when the Tyrant is not a unit of one?

No it is always a unit of one. It can be joined to a unit of Tyrant Guard DESPITE being a unit of one becasue of the Shieldwall rule.

Once it is attached to the Guard it becomes (for all intents and purposes) and IC. The IC rule then allows other ICs to join together dispite the fact they are always a unit of one.

There are special rules that allow you to join other units dispite the fact it is a unit of one, but it never stops being a unit of one.

So the Hive Tyrant model and three Tyrant Guard models are a unit of one model?

The Tyrant/SL never counts as a full IC. The Tyrant/SL may join a unit of Tyrant Guard and takes LoS saves like an IC. How ever for all other intents and purposes the Tyrant/SL never count as an IC and are then onwards treated as part of the Unit of TG. As a result a IC may join the Unit of TG, in which the Tyrant/SL is already and forever bound to. Said Tyrant/SL may not leave TG unit during the battle as they do not count as an IC for any other reason other than initially joining the Unit of TG. and LoS.

A Tyrant /SL without the a purchased Unit of TG can never be joined by IC's as they always count as one model for the purposes of the battle, not always as in the Meme forever alone.

No they are a unit of Tyrant Guard.

On a related note, can an IC join Mordrak? According to the Ghost Knights rules, if they are bought he is an upgraded character of the unit until such a time that the Ghost Knights are destroyed, at which point he reverts to being a single model unit.

Yes, you can join an IC to Mordrak. His Ghost Knights are actually an option he has in his entry.

 DeathReaper wrote:
So the Hive Tyrant model and three Tyrant Guard models are a unit of one model?

They are considered a unit of 1 Tyrant and a unit of 3 Guards.

Once you hit pre-depoyment you have permission to join ICs to units. The Shieldwall rule then lets the Tyrant attach to the guards like an IC. Then you have two units that IS TREATED like a single unit. (but is actuly not a single unit). If it was not for the part of Shieldwall that forbids the Tyrant from leaving you could seperate them into two units again. Becasue they are two units they count as 2 VP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And a question for all the "Primes can attach" crowd.

So I can attach the PoM to a Flyrant? All the same rules apply from your point of view.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Just because there is an exception in the Codex on how the guard unit attaches to the Tyrant via a modified IC rule does not make it one unit OR make the Tyrant an IC for any other unit other than the Tyrant Guard. If the guard were an upgrade then you would be right, but they are not.

The Tyrant is in a unit.
There is more than one member of the unit.
Therefore the Tyrant is not always a unit that consists of a single model.

This is untrue. The fact that a HT can join another unit is irrelevant to the rule at question. The rule states.... "Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot, however, join vehicle squadrons (see page 77) or units that always consist of a single model (such as most vehicles and Monstrous Creatures)."

How do you tell how many models a unit will have ?. pg 85 Tyranid Codex. "Composition: This section will show the number and Type of models that make up a basic unit, before any upgrades."

Hive Tyrant Pg 86. "Composition: 1 Hive Tyrant. "

A Prime cannot join with a HT because the HT is always just 1 Tyrant. Nothing in the any rule changes this. The only way a Prime can join a Tyrant is for the Prime to join the Guard unit of 1-3 and the Tyrant to join via the Shieldwall rule, (which grants the HT the ability to join.)

If you really want to get to the heart of the matter you just have to ask a simple question. Tyrant gets shot and you want a Prime that is attached to the Guard to take the hit. What is your LOS! roll?

2+.

Well the FAQ says that while the Tyrant is joined to the Tyrand Guard its treated as a IC for the purposes of LoS, Challanges, and Precision hits.

Page 35 – Tyrant Guard, Shieldwall.
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to read “A
single Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) may join a unit
of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it had the Independent Character
special rule and, while part of the unit, is treated as such for
the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision
Shots and Precision Strikes”.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well the FAQ says that while the Tyrant is joined to the Tyrand Guard its treated as a IC for all purposes

Page 35 – Tyrant Guard, Shieldwall.
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to read “A
single Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) may join a unit
of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it had the Independent Character
special rule and, while part of the unit, is treated as such for
the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision
Shots and Precision Strikes”.

Not for all purposes... it very clearly limits those purposes to those listed.

 Gloomfang wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So the Hive Tyrant model and three Tyrant Guard models are a unit of one model?

They are considered a unit of 1 Tyrant and a unit of 3 Guards.

Got any actual rules to back thus up?

Because from the way the BRB reads, they are a single unit.

Unless you are saying you can target the Hive Tyrant separate from the Tyrant Guard...

 Gloomfang wrote:

And a question for all the "Primes can attach" crowd.

So I can attach the PoM to a Flyrant? All the same rules apply from your point of view.

Of course they can, as an IC can join a normal Hive Tyrant, why would they not be able to join one that had wings?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well the FAQ says that while the Tyrant is joined to the Tyrand Guard its treated as a IC for all purposes

Page 35 – Tyrant Guard, Shieldwall.
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to read “A
single Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) may join a unit
of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it had the Independent Character
special rule and, while part of the unit, is treated as such for
the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision
Shots and Precision Strikes”.

Actually it does not say it is an IC for all purposes. Only LOS!, Challenges, Precision Shots, and Precision Strikes.

As such it would not count for the Heroic Morale ability. (Assuming that it ever came up).

Bad wording there on my part

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Just because there is an exception in the Codex on how the guard unit attaches to the Tyrant via a modified IC rule does not make it one unit OR make the Tyrant an IC for any other unit other than the Tyrant Guard. If the guard were an upgrade then you would be right, but they are not.

The Tyrant is in a unit.
There is more than one member of the unit.
Therefore the Tyrant is not always a unit that consists of a single model.

This is untrue. The fact that a HT can join another unit is irrelevant to the rule at question. The rule states.... "Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot, however, join vehicle squadrons (see page 77) or units that always consist of a single model (such as most vehicles and Monstrous Creatures)."

How do you tell how many models a unit will have ?. pg 85 Tyranid Codex. "Composition: This section will show the number and Type of models that make up a basic unit, before any upgrades."

Hive Tyrant Pg 86. "Composition: 1 Hive Tyrant. "

A Prime cannot join with a HT because the HT is always just 1 Tyrant. Nothing in the any rule changes this. The only way a Prime can join a Tyrant is for the Prime to join the Guard unit of 1-3 and the Tyrant to join via the Shieldwall rule, (which grants the HT the ability to join.)

So Mordrak cannot be joined either? His unit composition is 1 (Unique).

The Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model, just like Mordrak isn't, just like a Carnifex isn't.

rigeld2 wrote:


The Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model, just like Mordrak isn't, just like a Carnifex isn't.

My understanding is that Mordrak can buy additional models as part of his unit (like a Retinue). If the Tyrant could by Guards in the same way you would be totaly right as the unit would have more than one model.

Tyrant Guard are not MCs. There should be no debate if any IC can join them or not. The Tyrant Guard do not have to be deployed with the Hive Tyrant. You can therefore buy a Hive Tyrant, 3 Tyrant Guard, and a Prime and only squad the Tyrant Guard and Prime if you so desire.

 Gloomfang wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:


The Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model, just like Mordrak isn't, just like a Carnifex isn't.

My understanding is that Mordrak can buy additional models as part of his unit (like a Retinue). If the Tyrant could by Guards in the same way you would be totaly right as the unit would have more than one model.

According to the GK codex, that's not 100% correct.
Mordraks unit composition doesn't change.
If you include him, you may include a unit of Ghost Knights - Mordrak and the Ghost Knights start as one unit (page 40) but the unit composition of either does not include the other (which is the point I was addressing - context please).

The Ghost Knights aren't wargear. They aren't an upgrade. They're a special rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandruff wrote:
Tyrant Guard are not MCs. There should be no debate if any IC can join them or not. The Tyrant Guard do not have to be deployed with the Hive Tyrant. You can therefore buy a Hive Tyrant, 3 Tyrant Guard, and a Prime and only squad the Tyrant Guard and Prime if you so desire.

Good job at not addressing a single thing being discussed in the thread.

Funnily enough, ive never realised that a tyrant does not have to join a unit of guard -_-

Might have to take a unit for my flyrant now lol.

The rules seem to conflict on this one every time a new factor comes into it.
While he is treated like an IC via shieldwall, it is only for the reasons stated.
Joining is not among those reasons.

However (just my opinion) you can simply throw the prime into the hive guard unit, then add in the tyrant to get past most of the issues, as the hives are a basic unit that have no restrictions on who joins them.

 Jackal wrote:

However (just my opinion) you can simply throw the prime into the hive guard unit, then add in the tyrant to get past most of the issues, as the hives are a basic unit that have no restrictions on who joins them.

That's not the issue.
The issue is if you can join an IC to a Tyrant without even taking the Guard in the first place.

To those opposed:

Tyrant, Prime, 2 Guard. CREEEED ambushes and drops a template causing 4 wounds. Both ICs LOS! off to the Guards leaving just the Tyrant and Prime.

What now?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Without the Shieldwall rule the Tyrant is always a unit of one and an IC can not attach to it.

So there are times when the Tyrant is not a unit of one?

No once he joins a unit of tyrant guard the model is a part of a tyrant guard unit not a hive tyrant unit.
A hive tyrant unit is always one model so no joining, a hive guard unit isn't so can be joined.
The hive tyrant model being able to join a specific unit doesn't change the fact that as a unit he's always one model.

Edited to make more sense (damn you english).

 HoverBoy wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Without the Shieldwall rule the Tyrant is always a unit of one and an IC can not attach to it.

So there are times when the Tyrant is not a unit of one?

Yes the times when he's part of a unit of tyrant guard.
A hive tyrant unit is always one model so no joining, a hive guard unit isn't so can be joined.
The hive tyrant model being able to join a specific unit doesn't change the fact that by himself he's a one model unit.

Right, so Mordrak is as well. Gotcha.

rigeld2 wrote:

 HoverBoy wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Without the Shieldwall rule the Tyrant is always a unit of one and an IC can not attach to it.

So there are times when the Tyrant is not a unit of one?

Yes the times when he's part of a unit of tyrant guard.
A hive tyrant unit is always one model so no joining, a hive guard unit isn't so can be joined.
The hive tyrant model being able to join a specific unit doesn't change the fact that by himself he's a one model unit.

Right, so Mordrak is as well. Gotcha.

Um yes if mordark purchases his ghost bros he can have other IC join him easy.
Wait what's your point.

Ok, i think you kinda sum it up for yourself though.

Only an IC can join another IC or a unit normally.
An IC cant join a unit of 1.

While on his own, a tyrant is a unit of 1.
When with tyrant guards, its a tyrant guard unit instead.

So no, a Prime could not join a tyrant.
Not unless the tyrant gained the IC rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

To those opposed:

Tyrant, Prime, 2 Guard. CREEEED ambushes and drops a template causing 4 wounds. Both ICs LOS! off to the Guards leaving just the Tyrant and Prime.

What now?

As the rules govening ICs and units consisting of one model only covers joining a unit the Prime can stay with the Tyrant. If the Prime choses to leave the Tyrant he can not rejoin it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also have to retract my "Two units statement" after rereading the Sheildwall rules at lunch. The rule says that the Tyrant joins the Guard. That would make it one unit of Tyrant Guard and Tyrant Guard can always consist of more than one model.

Not so sure about the Prime not rejoining the Tyrant. Shieldwall states "while part of the unit" (unit being the Tyrant Guard). I am not sure when the unit of Guard stops being a unit of Guard (if killing off the actual Guard makes it not a unit of Tyrant Guard).

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Just because there is an exception in the Codex on how the guard unit attaches to the Tyrant via a modified IC rule does not make it one unit OR make the Tyrant an IC for any other unit other than the Tyrant Guard. If the guard were an upgrade then you would be right, but they are not.

The Tyrant is in a unit.
There is more than one member of the unit.
Therefore the Tyrant is not always a unit that consists of a single model.

This is untrue. The fact that a HT can join another unit is irrelevant to the rule at question. The rule states.... "Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot, however, join vehicle squadrons (see page 77) or units that always consist of a single model (such as most vehicles and Monstrous Creatures)."

How do you tell how many models a unit will have ?. pg 85 Tyranid Codex. "Composition: This section will show the number and Type of models that make up a basic unit, before any upgrades."

Hive Tyrant Pg 86. "Composition: 1 Hive Tyrant. "

A Prime cannot join with a HT because the HT is always just 1 Tyrant. Nothing in the any rule changes this. The only way a Prime can join a Tyrant is for the Prime to join the Guard unit of 1-3 and the Tyrant to join via the Shieldwall rule, (which grants the HT the ability to join.)

So Mordrak cannot be joined either? His unit composition is 1 (Unique).

The Tyrant is not a unit that always consists of a single model, just like Mordrak isn't, just like a Carnifex isn't.

I am unaware of who Mordrak is or what Codex he is from, however that really doesnt affect the HT / IC issue.

To those opposed:

Tyrant, Prime, 2 Guard. CREEEED ambushes and drops a template causing 4 wounds. Both ICs LOS! off to the Guards leaving just the Tyrant and Prime.

What now?

What do you mean, what now? The tyrant and the prime are still a unit if that is what you are asking, nothing in the rule prevents that or breaks the unit by killing the two guards.

Greyknight codex

The hive tyrant is a member of a unit containing 1 - 4 models, so can ne joined by an IC at any time. Same as just because you havent bought 2 carnifex doesnt mean you cannot add a prime to a single carnifex