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Fragile wrote:

 -Nazdreg- wrote:

First of all: Mordrak is Mordrak and Ghost Knights are Ghost Knights. If somehow a ghost knight appears we have a unit of Ghost Knights with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character to the unit of ghost knights. Did the unit "Mordrak" now extend? No, we have as you correctly indicated, a combined unit. But this unit is no longer "Mordrak". So indeed the unit "Mordrak" always consist of a single model. The unit "Mordrak+Ghost Knights" or better: "Ghost Knights with Mordrak as part of them" is a different thing. So, yeah during the co-existence of those two units the unit "Mordrak" ceases to exist.

Ghost Knights are of course joinable, so if you have an IC there, you can join a ghost knight. If the ghost knights die and Mordrak survives with an IC attached previously, he will return to his original status and the IC is then on is own as well since it can't join Mordrak and the unit it had joined (the ghost Knights) is gone.

The facts are clear, the codex states Grand Master Mordrak's unit composition is 1 (unique). Now the other way round: If you buy Ghost Knights as well, is this unit called Grandmaster Mordrak and consist of 2-6 models?

I think you were right on up until the bold part. When the IC joins the the unit he becomes part of it for all intents and purposes. Mordrak and the IC could still operate together since Mordrak was an upgrade Character to a unit that the IC joined. If the IC left, then I dont think he would be able to rejoin Mordrak.

Agreed (more or less). If an IC joins a unit that includes a model from a unit that always consists of a single model (such as a Hive Tyrant our Mordrak), and the rest of the unit dies, the IC is still attached to the model.

Happyjew wrote:

Agreed (more or less). If an IC joins a unit that includes a model from a unit that always consists of a single model (such as a Hive Tyrant our Mordrak), and the rest of the unit dies, the IC is still attached to the model.

That is becasue the unit it attached to (Guard or Ghosts) is not destroyed becasue the other model (Mordrak or Tyrant) is still part of that original unit. Once the IC leaves Mordrak then Mordrac becomes a unit of one and the IC can not rejoin.

The Tyrant is iffy. It is not really an IC and he does not have permission (or requirement) to once again become a unit of 1.

As of right now the case of the guard/ghosts dying off is a hole in the rules with no defined resolution in the rules.

I think you were right on up until the bold part. When the IC joins the the unit he becomes part of it for all intents and purposes. Mordrak and the IC could still operate together since Mordrak was an upgrade Character to a unit that the IC joined. If the IC left, then I dont think he would be able to rejoin Mordrak.

I must disagree here, because this would be inconsequent. If Mordrak (or the Hive Tyrant) can be "accidentally" joined by an IC due to the death of the unit they were attached to and the IC had joined for a certain amount of time, then it must be possible to join them right in the first place.

If however it is impossible to join a unit only consisting of a single model, and if that is the case with a Hive Tyrant and Mordrak, then it must be impossible to join Mordrak with an IC that joined the Ghost Knights when the Ghost Knights are dead.

My Argumentation is like this:

1. Mordrak is unit composition 1 (unique), so unjoinable by ICs
2. Ghost Knights are 1-5, so joinable

The combination of both contains a joinable unit, so it is possible to join the Ghost Knights when Mordrak is with them. But when the Ghost Knights are gone, the joinable combination ceases to exist and Mordrak returns to a model in his own right. That means the IC is no longer part of the unit since Mordrak has his original unjoinable status and not the upgrade character status of a ghost knight unit.

The Hive Tyrant is a little more difficult. The codex doesnt specifically state:

1. What is his status during his coexistence with the guard?
2. What happens when the guard dies?

Fact is, the unit Hive Tyrant is unit composition 1, so it is never more than 1 model. But the unit Hive Tyrant+Tyrant Guard is not so clear.
I would solve it like this (Attention, unusual...):

The Hive Tyrant joined the guard as if he were an IC (he isn't though). That refers only to the joining process. That means from that on, he reverts to being an own unit but is locked in coherency with the hive guard since he is unable to leave the unit as he is only permitted to join, not to leave.

Other option: He becomes part of the unit tyrant guard. Then when the last "real" tyrant guard died, no KP will be scored and the "Hive Tyrant" will be joinable after that because he is no longer Hive Tyrant but tyrant guard with a hive tyrant profile.

These are the two possibilities I can see. Both do not permit an IC to join a Hive Tyrant per se.

I think Mordrak is actually joinable, because he has the option of being fielded as a unit of multiple models, rather than just as Mordrak by himself.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
Ehm who actually thinks Mordrak on his own can be joined? Is he an IC? No. Does he always consist of a single model? Yes. So no joining if he is alone.

Except you're wrong. He's absolutely not a model that is always a single model unit.

ICs are units that always consist of a single model, just like most vehicles and most monstrous creatures, as cited in the first paragraph of the IC rules. The only reason an IC can join another IC is because the IC rules grant specific permission to do that, which is an exception.

The fact that an IC or Hive Tyrant can join another unit and become part of it (and an IC can join another IC to form a multi-character unit) doesn't change the fact that those units always consist of a single model. When they join another unit, they become temporarily a part of that unit instead.

Mordrak isn't an IC, which it seems like you think he is by your first paragraph.
Can you cite the rule saying the Hive Tyrant unit ceases to exist?
The FAQ implies it does not (since there's 2VP there), and any IC joining a unit, if they were to not be a unit anymore, would not be worth VP individually.

Mordrak and the Tyrant are somewhat unusual cases, but I think Nazdreg mostly has the right of it.

The FAQ ruling is necessitated by the rules working the way they do, but GW not wanting the VPs to vanish. They don't want a Hive Tyrant attached to Tyrant Guard to be worth only 1vp, just like they don't want an IC + squad to be only one VP (say, if they run off the table for example or otherwise die at the same time), so they had to create exceptions to the general rule that the attached units (Tyrant or IC) stop being units of their own while they're attached.

Mordrak is really a separate issue from the HT. Mordrak has specific rules about his participation in a unit. ..

.. edit..

Actually reading the rule again, I would say you are right, but not for the reason you stated Nazdrag. His "unjoinable status" does not apply, because an IC is not attempting to join him, he already is joined with him as Mordrak is nothing more than an upgrade character to the Ghost Knight unit. There is nothing in the rule that would force the IC out.

Mordrak's rule states that he becomes a single unit again when the Ghost Knights die. So he is actually forced to leave the unit, not the IC.

The Hive Tyrant joined the guard as if he were an IC (he isn't though). That refers only to the joining process. That means from that on, he reverts to being an own unit but is locked in coherency with the hive guard since he is unable to leave the unit as he is only permitted to join, not to leave.

The HT is a bit of a gray area. The IC rules state that the IC is part of the unit, so there would not be 2 units in one. The FAQ states that the Guard unit is worth 2KP, so GW is adding in the Tyrant to the Guard value. The FAQ also states that the Tyrant cannot leave the Guard unit, which really should have said Voluntarily and that would have simplified this so much.

Having reread Modraks rules I have to say that there is an unresolved rules issue that does need an FAQ. His rule says he becomes a unit of 1 when there are no more Ghost Knights. The IC is not a Ghost Knight (for instance no Stealth). That means that Mordrak becomes a unit of 1, but it doesn't say ICs are forced out when a model becomes a unit that is always one. It just says he can not join it and he is already joined. All the other models have not been killed because Mordrak is still alive.

The Tyrant does not have that restriction that makes him a unit of 1 when the Guard all die, so the IC is fine staying with the unit of Guard, even if it just consists of the Tyrant.

Actually reading the rule again, I would say you are right, but not for the reason you stated Nazdrag. His "unjoinable status" does not apply, because an IC is not attempting to join him, he already is joined with him as Mordrak is nothing more than an upgrade character to the Ghost Knight unit. There is nothing in the rule that would force the IC out.

Mordrak's rule states that he becomes a single unit again when the Ghost Knights die. So he is actually forced to leave the unit, not the IC.

Yep you are right. Bad expression on my part. If Mordrak is part of a Ghost Knight unit and an IC joins the ghost knights, after death of all ghost knights the IC would have still joined the ghost knights, but Mordrak is then Mordrak, and since the Ghost Knights are dead, the IC has no longer anyone it could be joined to.

Having reread Modraks rules I have to say that there is an unresolved rules issue that does need an FAQ. His rule says he becomes a unit of 1 when there are no more Ghost Knights. The IC is not a Ghost Knight (for instance no Stealth). That means that Mordrak becomes a unit of 1, but it doesn't say ICs are forced out when a model becomes a unit that is always one. It just says he can not join it and he is already joined. All the other models have not been killed because Mordrak is still alive.

Yep the IC is not a Ghost Knight. But neither is Mordrak. But since the IC joined the Ghost Knights there is no one left in the unit it joined, because Mordrak is no longer part of the unit of Ghost Knights as he reverts to being Mordrak.