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 HoverBoy wrote:
Well no that's how it is for all IC, but since the HT is an unusual case of a normal character acting like an IC they saw it necessary to make clear.

The reason is that the rules state you get 1 VP for an IC and 1 VP for a unit. The issue was that Tyrant is not an IC, so people were saying you only got 1VP for killing off the the unit.

The intresting thing on rereading the rules for Shieldwall (for the 50th time) is that when a Tyrant joins the Guard the unit will always be considered Tyrant Guard, even if there are no Guard models left. Once you join the unit the Tyrant can never leave the unit (not even if they all die). So an IC will always be able to join the Tyrant and the Tyrant will always be able to LOS! on a 2+.

 Gloomfang wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
A Tyrant unit always has one model in it (per its composition).

So composition is the absolute rule? Is that your argument?
(Asking for clarification prior to rebuttal)

No I am saying that a model and a unit are two diffrent things. When the Tyrant joins the Guard the Tyrant model joins the Guard unit. While he is part of that Guard unit the Tyrant unit does not exist. That is why they had to state that a Tyrant and his Guard count as 2 VP, becasue otherwise you would only get 1 VP for the Tyrant Guard unit.

So normally an IC joining a unit that dies with a unit doesn't count for a second VP?
The Tyrant unit still exists.

rigeld2 wrote:
So normally an IC joining a unit that dies with a unit doesn't count for a second VP?
The Tyrant unit still exists.

ICs do count. Tyrants didn't becasue they are not ICs, the Guard just has a rule that lets the Guard interact with them as if the Tyrant was an IC. That would mean until the FAQ you only got 1 KP (as this was 5th when it was FAQed and they just changed KP to VP for the 6th FAQ) for killing the unit and not 2.

And I have presented evidance and rules saying that the Tyrant unit does not exist. Where in the rules does it state that it does exist?

 Gloomfang wrote:
ICs do count. Tyrants didn't becasue they are not ICs, the Guard just has a rule that lets the Guard interact with them as if the Tyrant was an IC. That would mean until the FAQ you only got 1 KP (as this was 5th when it was FAQed and they just changed KP to VP for the 6th FAQ) for killing the unit and not 2.

In 5th it was FAQed to be 1, not 2.

And I have presented evidance and rules saying that the Tyrant unit does not exist. Where in the rules does it state that it does exist?

The Tyrant joins "exactly as if it had the Independent Character special rule". Meaning that if the Tyrant unit ceases to exist, so does every other IC unit when they join.
Are you willing to have that discussion?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
ICs do count. Tyrants didn't becasue they are not ICs, the Guard just has a rule that lets the Guard interact with them as if the Tyrant was an IC. That would mean until the FAQ you only got 1 KP (as this was 5th when it was FAQed and they just changed KP to VP for the 6th FAQ) for killing the unit and not 2.

In 5th it was FAQed to be 1, not 2.

And I have presented evidance and rules saying that the Tyrant unit does not exist. Where in the rules does it state that it does exist?

The Tyrant joins "exactly as if it had the Independent Character special rule". Meaning that if the Tyrant unit ceases to exist, so does every other IC unit when they join.
Are you willing to have that discussion?

Page 39 an IC is a part of the joined unit for all rules purposes. Unless you wanna discuss how he's a member of two units simultaneously.

(BTW i found the bold thing too, proud of myself)

 HoverBoy wrote:
Page 39 an IC is a part of the joined unit for all rules purposes. Unless you wanna discuss how he's a member of two units simultaneously.

He is.
There's no evidence that his old unit is destroyed. Both units still exist.

rigeld2 wrote:

 HoverBoy wrote:
Page 39 an IC is a part of the joined unit for all rules purposes. Unless you wanna discuss how he's a member of two units simultaneously.

He is.
There's no evidence that his old unit is destroyed. Both units still exist.

And still Hive Tyrant (the unit) is a unit that consists of only 1 model.

Damn it i can't make this not offencive

rigeld2 wrote:

 HoverBoy wrote:
Page 39 an IC is a part of the joined unit for all rules purposes. Unless you wanna discuss how he's a member of two units simultaneously.

He is.
There's no evidence that his old unit is destroyed. Both units still exist.

He cannot leave the unit once he has joined it, therefore he is no longer his own unit.

But its still moot, the only interaction that they IC and HT can have is through the Guard unit and the Shieldwall rule.

rigeld2 wrote:
In 5th it was FAQed to be 1, not 2.

Faulty memeory then. I never took Tyrants in 5th as I felt they were to expensive. I only started using hte Swarmlord near the end of 5th becasue I liked the model.

rigeld2 wrote:
]The Tyrant joins "exactly as if it had the Independent Character special rule". Meaning that if the Tyrant unit ceases to exist, so does every other IC unit when they join.
Are you willing to have that discussion?

Yes I am.
When an IC joins a unit you end up with one single unit, whatever the unit was before he joined and a character. You join a Prime with a unit of Termigaunts you end up with a unit of Termigaunts with a charater. You can't target the Prime seprately (except if you have a rule that lets you do so) becasue he is part of the unit. When he leaves the Termigaunts he becomes his own unit again.

So let me ask a follow up to further this discussion.

A Tyrant joins a unit of Tyrant Guard. Do you end up with:

A) A Tyrant Guard unit with a char.
B) A Hive Tyrant unit with some guards.
C) A unit of two units.
D) Something else that I haven't listed.

Also put the rule that makes you think that answer is right.

For the people arguing cannot join.

Hive Tyrant and Prime both join a unit of Tyrant Guard.
Tyrant Guard killed off.
You now have two models legally attached.
Is it a Hive Tyrant unit or a Tyranid Prime unit?

If it is a Hive Tyrant unit, then it is not a unit that always consists of one model.

C) according to some people.

Happyjew wrote:
For the people arguing cannot join.

Hive Tyrant and Prime both join a unit of Tyrant Guard.
Tyrant Guard killed off.
You now have two models legally attached.
Is it a Hive Tyrant unit or a Tyranid Prime unit?

If it is a Hive Tyrant unit, then it is not a unit that always consists of one model.

Its neither. It is a unit of Tyrant Guard. It doesn't matter if the guard are killed off. The reason that that ICs are forced to leave a unit that is destroied is that he can't maintain unit coherency with a unit with no models. The Tyrant doesn't have permission to leave the unit of Tyrant Guard under any cercomstances, so it is always a unit of Tyrant Guard, even if he is the only model in the unit.

Q: How many victory points is a unit of Tyrant Guard that has been joined by a Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) worth? (p35)
A: Two.

Q: Can a Hive Tyrant or the Swarmlord choose to leave a unit of Tyrant Guard once it has joined them? (p35)
A: No.

In all references, it is called a unit of Tyrant Guard.

Hive Tyrant and Prime both join a unit of Tyrant Guard.
Tyrant Guard killed off.
You now have two models legally attached.
Is it a Hive Tyrant unit or a Tyranid Prime unit?

If it is a Hive Tyrant unit, then it is not a unit that always consists of one model.

Its still a unit of Tyrant Guard. The IC's are counted as part of that unit. The IC's are not forced to leave the unit and become their own until all other members of that unit (which includes IC's) are killed off.

Fragile wrote:

Its still a unit of Tyrant Guard. The IC's are counted as part of that unit. The IC's are not forced to leave the unit and become their own until all other members of that unit (which includes IC's) are killed off.

Great now I have to go and double check my answer on if the rest of the unit is killed if the IC has to leave the unit. I guess if he is the only member of the unit he just has to maintain coherency with himself...

Either way my answer is still that the Tyrant can't leave the guard unit, even if they are all dead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HoverBoy wrote:
C) according to some people.

And as far as I know a unit can only be a unit, not two units or else it would be two units.

If that makes any sense.

Pg 39. ".....If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase."


The Tyrant cannot choose to leave the Guard Unit, but I expect that it can be forced to leave it when the Guard all die. However, the FAQ states that the Tyrant Guard unit is worth 2 VP. If the Tyrant becomes his own unit when the Guard die, your opponent would get 2 VP for killing the Guard unit even though the Tyrant is still alive. This could make the case that the Tyrant cannot leave the unit all at once he joins it, even forcibly. He would become in essence an upgrade character to it.

Fragile wrote:
Pg 39. ".....If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase."


The Tyrant cannot choose to leave the Guard Unit, but I expect that it can be forced to leave it when the Guard all die. However, the FAQ states that the Tyrant Guard unit is worth 2 VP. If the Tyrant becomes his own unit when the Guard die, your opponent would get 2 VP for killing the Guard unit even though the Tyrant is still alive. This could make the case that the Tyrant cannot leave the unit all at once he joins it, even forcibly. He would become in essence an upgrade character to it.

I would agree that he is essentaily an upgrade. The issue with using the rule on pg 39 is that the Shieldwall rule does not make the Tyrant an IC for everything, like being forced to become a unit of one model again. The rule actully states he can not leave the unit.

And if the opponet kills off all the Guard, but not the Tyrant, they get no VPs. You either get 2 for killing the unit (the entire unit) or you get none.

The tyrant cannot leave the unit once he has joined it.
The combined unit is a tyrant guard unit, with a hive tyrant in it.
It is not 2 seperate units, nor does it function as if it were.

Since his unit title changes when joining the unit (to tyrant guard unit) in theory you gain 0 vp's for killing just the guard, as a member of the unit still exists.

A prime cant join a lone tyrant as he is a single model with a unit size of 1 and no IC rule.
Once the tyrant has joined a unit of tyrant guard and becomes a larger unit, the prime can then join as its a tyrant guard unit that contains 4 models.

If the tyrant guard are killed, leaving the tyrant and prime, it will still be a formed unit.
But it consists of a single model from the tyrant guard unit with a prime added into it.

So you're all saying that:
Draigo joins a solo paladin.
Solo paladin is killed.
Game ends before the next movement phase.

VP is not earned for the solo paladin?

Draigo is an IC.
The tyrant is not.

Yes, the tyrant is treated as an IC.
But only if he joins a unit of guard, and even then, the rules do not cover that as they have limitations on what he can do when acting like an IC.

 Jackal wrote:
Draigo is an IC.
The tyrant is not.

Yes, the tyrant is treated as an IC.
But only if he joins a unit of guard, and even then, the rules do not cover that as they have limitations on what he can do when acting like an IC.

It joins the unit exactly as if it had the Independent Character special rule and does other things. Not "treated as", "exactly as".

pg 127....Units that are falling back at the end of the game, and units that are not on the board at the end of the game, count as destroyed for the purposes of this mission. Remember that Independent Characters and Dedicated Transports are
individual units and award Victory Points if they are destroyed.


Is the paladin on the board ?

Fragile wrote:
pg 127....Units that are falling back at the end of the game, and units that are not on the board at the end of the game, count as destroyed for the purposes of this mission. Remember that Independent Characters and Dedicated Transports are
individual units and award Victory Points if they are destroyed.


Is the paladin on the board ?

No, but you're asserting that Draigo is still part of the unit, therefore the unit is still on the board.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
pg 127....Units that are falling back at the end of the game, and units that are not on the board at the end of the game, count as destroyed for the purposes of this mission. Remember that Independent Characters and Dedicated Transports are
individual units and award Victory Points if they are destroyed.


Is the paladin on the board ?

No, but you're asserting that Draigo is still part of the unit, therefore the unit is still on the board.

I have asserted nothing about Draigo. I have been talking about the Hive Tyrant and the Tyrant Guard, who have Unique rules about how they interact.

No, however a Paladin Unit is still on the board.

It joins the unit exactly as if it had the Independent Character special rule and does other things. Not "treated as", "exactly as".

Page 35 – Tyrant Guard, Shieldwall.
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to read “A
single Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) may join a unit
of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it had the Independent Character
special rule and, while part of the unit, is treated as such for
the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision
Shots and Precision Strikes”.

Thats good, until you read on after that point.
In which it describes to what extent the IC rules apply.
If it just said "Exactly as" and left it at that, fine.
But it goes on to add in limitations to that rule.
Which, in theory means its not exactly as, since there limits to it.

It simply joins the unit like an IC, then gains some of the rules from it.
It does not become an IC.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, however a Paladin Unit is still on the board.

The second sentence addresses that.

Fragile wrote:Its still a unit of Tyrant Guard. The IC's are counted as part of that unit. The IC's are not forced to leave the unit and become their own until all other members of that unit (which includes IC's) are killed off.

Fragile wrote:I have asserted nothing about Draigo. I have been talking about the Hive Tyrant and the Tyrant Guard, who have Unique rules about how they interact.

If the Tyrant+Prime+Guard loses all the Guard but is still a Guard unit, then Draigo+Paladin is still a Paladin unit when the Paladin dies.
There's no unique rules interaction there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jackal wrote:

Page 35 – Tyrant Guard, Shieldwall.
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to read “A
single Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) may join a unit
of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it had the Independent Character
special rule and, while part of the unit, is treated as such for
the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision
Shots and Precision Strikes”.

Thats good, until you read on after that point.
In which it describes to what extent the IC rules apply.
If it just said "Exactly as" and left it at that, fine.
But it goes on to add in limitations to that rule.
Which, in theory means its not exactly as, since there limits to it.

It simply joins the unit like an IC, then gains some of the rules from it.
It does not become an IC.

I bolded the word you're missing. And means "in addition to". Meaning it joins like one, and gets to do these other things like one as well, instead of like a normal Character that it already is.
Joining like one is all that's required for the argument I'm making, just FYI.

Fragile wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, however a Paladin Unit is still on the board.

The second sentence addresses that.

It does not alter that they are a Paladin unit AND an IC unit. They are both at the same time. If you diagree, an actual quote would be needed

Thats good, but again, just because it says "and" does not mean its going to allways add in more, ontop of what you have at current.

while part of the unit, is treated as such for
the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision
Shots and Precision Strikes”.

It actually takes away alot of benefits/rules of being an IC.