This is actually something i've thought about for a while now and I feel it's worth a discussion.
Why are all the humans in the 40k universe only represented by White Caucasians? Seriously, there are literately no black or Asian ethnicities represented in models, characters or fluff....Not in the Imperial Guard anyway....And i've never seen a black space marine lol
I am not sure why this is. Is it because it reflects the social inequality between black and white people in the Western world (less blacks as a percentage are middle-class) - where GW is dominant - or is it simply because the 40k universe was created by solely white middle/upper class kids who grew up in 1970's England? Or is this all to do with 'black culture'? Then what about Asians? To be fair, more Asians seem into the hobby than black people (probably to do with gaming being so popular in East Asian countries).
It's a game made by white English guys and it contains mostly white English guys. They don't really think about it. If it bothers you you can just paint some of your folks with different skin colors. Some of my Cadians are black or have tanner skin since it's a diverse universe, but all my Valhallans are white since they're heavily based on the WW2 Red Army. For the record, Salamanders Space Marines were black until the fluff changed them to be coal black with red eyes. Some say it's a retcon, some say that was the original intent of GW folks.
Why would it reflect anything? it is science fiction, as to models it is down to how people paint them mainly
I wouldnt say 40k nor GW are racist, to say they are because of the lack of ethnic diversity sounds to me like you are looking for something that isnt there.
It does seem a bit silly. The coal black Salamander thing is absurd; Ill paint a leftover Marine as a black guy Salamander. I have a few black guys as Neophytes/Scouts (the visor guy lookin like Geordie LaForge lulz). I tend to stick with helmets on my SMs but Ill probably make a black dude in my bike squad thanks to this thread =)
Invisible Jesus wrote: Why are all the humans in the 40k universe only represented by White Caucasians? Seriously, there are literately no black or Asian ethnicities represented in models, characters or fluff....Not in the Imperial Guard anyway....And i've never seen a black space marine lol
This is because you are unfamiliar with 40k background and models.
SM Salamanders are black, White Scars are based on Mongols, Attilan Rough Riders are based on Huns obviously.
That said, in a setting with millions of colonized planets and Orks, Tau, Necrons, Eldar and Tyranids, human skin colour is less important, esp. as there have been 38k years of further mixing of human races, on earth and other planets. And as always, you can paint the models any skin colour you want.
MarkyMark wrote: Why would it reflect anything? it is science fiction, as to models it is down to how people paint them mainly
I wouldnt say 40k nor GW are racist, to say they are because of the lack of ethnic diversity sounds to me like you are looking for something that isnt there.
I never said GW were racist nor did I mean to insinuate anything by this. Sorry if I gave that impression, but think you are the one who is looking for something that isn't there in this case...
One thing that may be a factor is simply color contrast. Most uniforms in 40k tend to be dark colors, so dark skin just won't have as much contrast. I tried painting darker skin before, and it the face detail was just lost in the dark gray uniforms. On the other hand, white/light skin stands out more, and it makes it easier to show the shading and detail on faces.
(Of course now I play DKoK, and who knows what's behind those gas masks.)
Invisible Jesus wrote: Why are all the humans in the 40k universe only represented by White Caucasians? Seriously, there are literately no black or Asian ethnicities represented in models, characters or fluff....Not in the Imperial Guard anyway....And i've never seen a black space marine lol
This is because you are unfamiliar with 40k background and models.
SM Salamanders are black, White Scars are based on Mongols, Attilan Rough Riders are based on Huns obviously.
That said, in a setting with millions of colonized planets and Orks, Tau, Necrons, Eldar and Tyranids, human skin colour is less important, esp. as there have been 38k years of further mixing of human races, on earth and other planets. And as always, you can paint the models any skin colour you want.
I am unfamiliar with 40k background and models? Really? So far with the examples you have cited, that accounts for about about 1/99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999th of the Imperium. So they are really an absolute exception to the rule. So that really hasn't proved anything.
Think people are missing the point here: Whenever you see GW exhibitions you never see (or very very rarely) black human beings, be it Imperial Guard, SM or whatever.
You say that the ethnicities of humans have had 38k years to 'mix' even more over countless planets. So actually then you'd expect to see even more ethnic diversity.
Finally, yes I know I can paint my guardsmen black...Funnily enough I knew that already lol. It doesn't bother me nor am I accusing GW of racism (it's absurd to even suggest this), I am just asking why this is. It just seems odd.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
d3m01iti0n wrote: It does seem a bit silly. The coal black Salamander thing is absurd; Ill paint a leftover Marine as a black guy Salamander. I have a few black guys as Neophytes/Scouts (the visor guy lookin like Geordie LaForge lulz). I tend to stick with helmets on my SMs but Ill probably make a black dude in my bike squad thanks to this thread =)
haha I know right?
I had to laugh at LeForge too.
Well, I am gonna paint more guardsmen black, just for some better realism I guess...
You said that you are an IG player. Look at the Catachan battleforce box, it features a piece of artwork that has accompanied nearly every product the GW has somehow associated with Catachan... TWO black guys... I'll give you some time to recover assuming that I just blew your mind. Not only do different races exist, a good deal of them are in your own faction. Need I mention Attilans or Tallarn again?
Invisible Jesus wrote: or is it simply because the 40k universe was created by solely white middle/upper class kids who grew up in 1970's England?
Seeing as GW created 40k and you make the above assumption I followed the trend and assumed you were aiming the lack of ethnic diversity at being GW's fault, as well as mentioning lack of ethnic characters in codex's written by GW.
When I first read some 40k stuff, I assumed the lack of diversity was purposeful. After all, the Imperium really resembled Nazi Germany. I assumed that the fact that everyone in power was an old white dude was to show how the future isn't any more brighter or tolerant than the past; in fact, intolerance has only gone worse. Even when humanity lies on the verge of extinction, people still stupidly prioritize race and gender. The Traitor Legions are breaking past Cadia, Hive Fleet Leviathan is eating up the eastern fringe and Orks are battering the Imperium from all sides, yet the Imperium still picks old white dudes to lead the defense rather than whoever is best for the job.
I accidentally brought this up and got yelled at a lot by people insisting the Imperium was tolerant.
Squidmanlolz wrote: You said that you are an IG player. Look at the Catachan battleforce box, it features a piece of artwork that has accompanied nearly every product the GW has somehow associated with Catachan... TWO black guys... I'll give you some time to recover assuming that I just blew your mind.
OMG. You are absolutely right. My mind is absolutely blown at the only 2 black guys ever to appear in the Catachan fluff ever hahahahha....
However, good points about Tallarn (Arabs) and Antillian Rough Riders. We can add Schafer's Last Chancers too. An Asian AND a Native American....Maybe I have indeed imagined the whole thing?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KamikazeCanuck wrote: This subject comes up every now and again. Basically there's a lot of racial diversity in the background but there's not so much in the Studio armies.
To be honest, it's probably this simple. Less people in general in the West who are black, even less who got the education/networking required to work in the studios.
Its also a b**** to paint any other skin color other then white that doesn't look horrible.
Skin shades do exist in the fluff and BL novels. Obviously people from one planet will have different shades then others.
The thing is, skin color doesn't matter when there's xenos to kill. Mankind has moved on from being racist to being xenophobic, and thats a good thing. Stinking aliens, all over our galaxy, etc...
Humans are the superior race. if you're human, you're fine and in the club. The alien, the mutant, and the heretic are what's worthy of ire. Who cares about ol'smoky joe over there? he's a damn fine shot and I hope you are too cause the next wave of Nids is coming over the ridge.
Here a black skinned Space Marine:
Here a red skinned Space Marine:
Here a yello skinned Space Marine:
Here a brown skinned Space Marine:
Really, in a universe with Xenos, Chaos mutations, genetically modified superhumans and humans from a million worlds, who cares if ancestors 38k years ago came from Ghana?
My black templars are black... I thought it would be funny when i was ?15? Or whenever it was i got them. A really light brown for the base and a brown ink looks darn decent imo.
Here a black skinned Space Marine:
Here a red skinned Space Marine:
Here a yello skinned Space Marine:
Here a brown skinned Space Marine:
Really, in a universe with Xenos, Chaos mutations, genetically modified superhumans and humans from a million worlds, who cares if ancestors 38k years ago came from Ghana?
shadowseerc wrote:Salamanders are black (deep black) and i think the Catachans are too.
I don't think Salamanders count as black people; they're mutants, whose skin color is just a gimmick that Games Workshop uses.
This is a black person.
This is a Salamander.
Oh ok thanks for the subtitles, i couldnt tell them apart . Seriously tho you can build your army however you want, its just that most people go for plain old vanilla humans. If you want choclate or strawberry or even rainbow sherbet then go for it!
Technically, the reason Salamanders are coal black is because their geneseed has a flaw that reacts to the radiation on their homeworld, causing their jet black skin.
The actual human population of Nocturne has light skin.
You decicde which colour your costum chapter or Regiment has.
So dont blame GW, that they created a dominat white skin based game in the 90s (not much from the 80s fluff still exists) when they had nearly 100% white customers.
To be far Salamanders are black, then theres tallaran desert raider's, they dont look british. If you want an ethnis army then paint em ethnic. I was at games day this year and I saw about two black guys. As mentioned before I think Its been an over sight, due to the fact that itis mainly young white guys that design and play the game. It would be good to see an ethnic army on a game table. Maybe you should get in touch with some of the designers and suggest a few characters.
I'm with the whole 38k years of mixing and only some remote places still have near pure bloodlines but as a whole the imperium is mixed genepool. Look at the names of some of the characters they come from different Terra nations of old. But I suppose it is odd there are no Tyrones', Sheniquas', Reggies', Kikis', or Lil'(insert name here)s' in the 41st Mill.
In the first Dawn of War game, the Inquisitor was black. Also, in several novels there are black characters. But yes, there are black people in 40K. The Cadians however, are all white and all have violet eyes. This is actually brought up in Cadian Blood by ADB, since either the Commissar or the Inquisitor is black, I forget which one, and it is seen as very strikingly odd by the main character since he is used to the entirely white Cadian population. I personally intend to add some black troopers to my IG army when I work on them again.
You decicde which colour your costum chapter or Regiment has.
So dont blame GW, that they created a dominat white skin based game in the 90s (not much from the 80s fluff still exists) when they had nearly 100% white customers.
It seems you have a really hard time understanding English, as we have said numerous times now that this was never about any accusation of racism. Get it? What do I have to do to spell that out? It was a perfectly reasonable question, certainly more reasonable than discussing my little pony space marines...I was just curious. Seriously, why do people jump down your throat on dakka when you ask perfectly reasonable questions? Frustrating to say the least.
As for the person who said this is one of many threads that discuss the same topic and this thread should be locked: Well, I didn't find any. I also happen to have a business to help run so don't have much time to search endlessly through threads. So if you don't like it, don't reply. It's really that simple. You are just wasting your time moaning...Surely, you have something better to do? What's worse is now you've wasted my time having to reply to you. *le sigh*
In my head I have sometimes entertained the idea that the Imperium is as racist as it is xenophobic. Perhaps sometime in their ancient past they considered everyone who wasn't white to be a mutant and they were accordingly persecuted (but here and there, some were tolerated). Obviously the Imperium has a standing criteria of what it considers properly human. Does skin colour factor in there too? I know GW would never elaborate on such a theory, but given how the Imperium thinks, it does seem to be an idea.
Goat wrote: I'm with the whole 38k years of mixing and only some remote places still have near pure bloodlines but as a whole the imperium is mixed genepool. Look at the names of some of the characters they come from different Terra nations of old. But I suppose it is odd there are no Tyrones', Sheniquas', Reggies', Kikis', or Lil'(insert name here)s' in the 41st Mill.
Yes it is odd. Thanks for understanding that the original question was just out of curiosity, not an accusation or attack on GWlol
I don't think Salamanders are Afro-Carribean, despite being black, as it has been explained above it is a result of radiation/gene flaws.
So really we have only a smattering of non-white ethnicities:
Tallarn's are undoubtedly Arabs.
RR are huns or whatever...
There are a couple of afro-carribean catachan's.
There is a black librarian on Dawn of War computer game (who looks cool actually).
Sightings of a couple of afro-carribean Commissars in Black Library.
Sightings of 2 'real' afro-carribeans at games day.
Not a lot then to be honest.
I would actually like to suggest some to GW, along with new black flesh paint to paint them.
I want a Imperial Guard commander like Sargent Apone from Aliens, for a start.
Then Chinese dudes as regimental advisors would be nice.
Actually, the same thought applies to the lack of female representation within 40k...
I was talking to my friend about some similar topic last weekend. He said he remembered reading a blog where a dude painting his Imperial Guard had developed 6 different skin tones. He then would roll a d6 for each model, and they would get the corresponding skin color!
One other point is, that it starts to look really bad if you paint armies like Chaos Space Marines black. Oh yea, the cult worshiping hooligans hell bent on the destruction of the universe, of COURSE you painted them black. You get the idea. It can be well done, but generally its just more PC (politically correct not plasma cannon, or maybe ESPECIALLY plasma cannon!) to paint guys your own skin tone, since you run a lower risk of offending anybody.
CuddlySquig wrote: In my head I have sometimes entertained the idea that the Imperium is as racist as it is xenophobic. Perhaps sometime in their ancient past they considered everyone who wasn't white to be a mutant and they were accordingly persecuted (but here and there, some were tolerated). Obviously the Imperium has a standing criteria of what it considers properly human. Does skin colour factor in there too? I know GW would never elaborate on such a theory, but given how the Imperium thinks, it does seem to be an idea.
Yeah, but honestly this seems like a convenient way of explaining it away...
I also don't know enough about genetics to say whether it's possible for one ethnicity to become 'dominant'. In this case, white genes...But when we start talking about dominant white genes overcoming inferior weak black genes it starts becoming an awkward conversation....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
akaean wrote: I was talking to my friend about some similar topic last weekend. He said he remembered reading a blog where a dude painting his Imperial Guard had developed 6 different skin tones. He then would roll a d6 for each model, and they would get the corresponding skin color!
One other point is, that it starts to look really bad if you paint armies like Chaos Space Marines black. Oh yea, the cult worshiping hooligans hell bent on the destruction of the universe, of COURSE you painted them black. You get the idea. It can be well done, but generally its just more PC (politically correct not plasma cannon, or maybe ESPECIALLY plasma cannon!) to paint guys your own skin tone, since you run a lower risk of offending anybody.
Very good points all around!
I would like to find that blog btw, sounds interesting and a good way of creating realism with 6 differently ethnicities in an IG army. I wonder if it's really as hard as people are claiming to paint non-white skin?
Maybe GW are scared of offending people or being racist if they start painting non-white characters? That could be it. Because some people are so over-sensitive on the issue that if they painted 'cannon fodder' troops all black then all the senior officials (commissars and gak) white, they could get accusations of racism.
If you're looking for an in-universe (unlike the above theory that points to sensitivity issues on GW's part) theory as to why a fascist, xenophobic empire is made up mostly of one visible ethnicity I think you'd have to settle for some form of racism. Probably more plausible than some of the canon explanations for some things, like why the Imperium doesn't use AI.
I agree with the (marginal) opinion that this is because the emperium is fascist in itself.
From a political lens it has all the elements of fascism in its purest form. Thus logical that over the time they must have had social/racial engeneering programs.
Also, lot of inbreeding/cloning with SM just to look like children of the emperor.
Also, GW prolly didn't put any thought into it at the start (I would not either); and then didn't want to break the canon.
If you're looking for an in-universe (unlike the above theory that points to sensitivity issues on GW's part) theory as to why a fascist, xenophobic empire is made up mostly of one visible ethnicity I think you'd have to settle for some form of racism. Probably more plausible than some of the canon explanations for some things, like why the Imperium doesn't use AI.
Well, isn't the AI to do with the uprising of the 'iron men' that nearly annihilated humanity? ...So basically they stole the Battlestar Galactica concept. Plausible though.
I'm talking about 40,000 years of humans breeding with humans. Eventually there wouldn't be minorities. All races will cross-breed with one another eventually.
Then disasters like nuclear war, the civil wars of ancient Terra (our future, 40ks past), the wars of unification. All these things would thin the herd of a race that is already losing it's unique racial traits.
In a few hundred years Earth is going to be covered in a race of humans that will look like a cross between asians and mexicans. There's a great NatGeo on it.
Basically I guess I'm saying that it doesn't make sense that there are white people in 40k. There souldn't be any blonde or red hair. There shouldn't be any green or blue eyes.
There should only be brown skinned, brown haired, brown eyed (hehehe) humans that far into the future, even before galactic colonization.
I would assume that some worlds would begin to force certain human groups to re-evolve some of the older traits but possibly for different reasons than would happen on earth.
A race of humans that were forced to live underground (Horus and his homeworld) would probably begin to evolve back into subterrainian traits (better night vision, shorter stature, pale skin.
The races of Terra wouldn't have the gene-diversity to form a world entirely of the mongolians (The Khan) for example.
The history of 40k claims that at one point Earth was united and had spread through the stars as a single race who allied with alien races.
A global unity for hundreds of years would slowly errode the differences between mankind and result in a more singular form of human.
Of course there is nothing to say that random traits could spring up from time to time.
There. How's that Angrysquig? Can you calm down now?
A Moderator wrote:
Maybe everyone could calm down and stop agging each other.
Every thread on the board is not started to specifically entertain you.
There are lots of topics that get repeated because new people join and want to discuss them, and other reasons. If you are not interested in the repeated topic, read a different thread.
At the same time, new members should check if there is a same/similar thread on the front page, and add to that rather than make a duplicate thread.
all of this aside... it is all up to you... in a few roleplaying games that i have found set in the 40k universe they have plenty of black people... there are also purple people and grey skinned people... it all depends on the planet.
If I remember my biology class from way back the did a lesson on differen genes transferring over to offspring. Blues eyes, brown hair, tall short that kinda thing. If I remember right they said the most dominant was asian. As far as ethnicity goes. It was intersting to learn that having blue eyes like i have is an anomaly similar to albino being an anomaly. This might be slightly of or even have changed. After that they kinda got into cells and all that stuff just kinda went right over my head.
Also has to do with the fact that the Japanese theme is covered by Tau (blue skin!), the noble savage theme is covered by Kroot, the wild and brutal low tech theme is covered by Orks (green skin!). Kislev Flesh is perfect for East Asian skin. My Dark Eldar have dark violet skin.
Wesley Snipes (Simon says bleed!)
Blondie Dred from Bad Boys 2
The guy from Bill and Ted
Second row:
Michael Clarke Duncan (god rest his soul) w/bionic eye
Keegan-Michael Key
Lawrance Fishburne as Morphius
Third row:
Obama w/ cyborg eye
Obama
Obama w/ eye patch
Those are really nice sculpts. They should make more dred-heads. I would so make a marine army with all rasta-ish marines. None of the pot references, however.
Anyways, welcome to a post-racial world. You don't need "the negro savages" to play the bad guys when your bad guys are 40-foot-tall alien monsters. On the flip side, GW is under no obligation to ensure that the human beings portrayed are one of every race in a horrible, hackneyed, and, ultimately racist way (like the original star trek, or the mod squad).
I mean, in the end it's the OP who is getting worked up about skin color here...
Wesley Snipes (Simon says bleed!)
Blondie Dred from Bad Boys 2
The guy from Bill and Ted
Second row:
Michael Clarke Duncan (god rest his soul) w/bionic eye
Keegan-Michael Key
Lawrance Fishburne as Morphius
Third row:
Obama w/ cyborg eye
Obama
Obama w/ eye patch
Those are really nice sculpts. They should make more dred-heads. I would so make a marine army with all rasta-ish marines. None of the pot references, however.
In other news, I just found the heads for my new unit of Khorne Berzerkers....
The actual human population of Nocturne has light skin.
That's stated flat out somehwere?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CuddlySquig wrote: In my head I have sometimes entertained the idea that the Imperium is as racist as it is xenophobic. Perhaps sometime in their ancient past they considered everyone who wasn't white to be a mutant and they were accordingly persecuted (but here and there, some were tolerated). Obviously the Imperium has a standing criteria of what it considers properly human. Does skin colour factor in there too? I know GW would never elaborate on such a theory, but given how the Imperium thinks, it does seem to be an idea.
The Imperium is not and has never been racist. It's one of the only progressive things about them. It's not because they're trying to be liberals suddenly it's because the concept of race in general has disappeared. We're talking about a galaxy where Aliens and witches exist.
I'm talking about 40,000 years of humans breeding with humans. Eventually there wouldn't be minorities. All races will cross-breed with one another eventually.
Then disasters like nuclear war, the civil wars of ancient Terra (our future, 40ks past), the wars of unification. All these things would thin the herd of a race that is already losing it's unique racial traits.
In a few hundred years Earth is going to be covered in a race of humans that will look like a cross between asians and mexicans. There's a great NatGeo on it.
Basically I guess I'm saying that it doesn't make sense that there are white people in 40k. There souldn't be any blonde or red hair. There shouldn't be any green or blue eyes.
There should only be brown skinned, brown haired, brown eyed (hehehe) humans that far into the future, even before galactic colonization.
I would assume that some worlds would begin to force certain human groups to re-evolve some of the older traits but possibly for different reasons than would happen on earth.
A race of humans that were forced to live underground (Horus and his homeworld) would probably begin to evolve back into subterrainian traits (better night vision, shorter stature, pale skin.
The races of Terra wouldn't have the gene-diversity to form a world entirely of the mongolians (The Khan) for example.
The history of 40k claims that at one point Earth was united and had spread through the stars as a single race who allied with alien races.
A global unity for hundreds of years would slowly errode the differences between mankind and result in a more singular form of human.
Of course there is nothing to say that random traits could spring up from time to time.
There. How's that Angrysquig? Can you calm down now?
Thanks for the contribution DeffDread! Best I've seen out of you yet!
I'm talking about 40,000 years of humans breeding with humans. Eventually there wouldn't be minorities. All races will cross-breed with one another eventually.
Then disasters like nuclear war, the civil wars of ancient Terra (our future, 40ks past), the wars of unification. All these things would thin the herd of a race that is already losing it's unique racial traits.
In a few hundred years Earth is going to be covered in a race of humans that will look like a cross between asians and mexicans. There's a great NatGeo on it.
Basically I guess I'm saying that it doesn't make sense that there are white people in 40k. There souldn't be any blonde or red hair. There shouldn't be any green or blue eyes.
There should only be brown skinned, brown haired, brown eyed (hehehe) humans that far into the future, even before galactic colonization.
I would assume that some worlds would begin to force certain human groups to re-evolve some of the older traits but possibly for different reasons than would happen on earth.
A race of humans that were forced to live underground (Horus and his homeworld) would probably begin to evolve back into subterrainian traits (better night vision, shorter stature, pale skin.
The races of Terra wouldn't have the gene-diversity to form a world entirely of the mongolians (The Khan) for example.
The history of 40k claims that at one point Earth was united and had spread through the stars as a single race who allied with alien races.
A global unity for hundreds of years would slowly errode the differences between mankind and result in a more singular form of human.
Of course there is nothing to say that random traits could spring up from time to time.
There. How's that Angrysquig? Can you calm down now?
Thanks for the contribution DeffDread! Best I've seen out of you yet!
You haven't been looking at my gallery have you? That's my best contribution.
I mean, in the end it's the OP who is getting worked up about skin color here...
*Sigh* Please show some respect by reading the thread before replying, as I am sick of having to needlessly defend myself to the point now I can't be be bothered with this thread anymore:
I never said GW were racist nor did I mean to insinuate anything by this. Sorry if I gave that impression
we have said numerous times now that this was never about any accusation of racism. It was a perfectly reasonable question, certainly more reasonable than discussing my little pony space marines...I was just curious.
Oh my, thank you Kroothawk! You've officially just gotten Dragon Forge another customer. I hope they keep sculpting conversion heads, as I'd love to have other racial groups in that style. (Even Caucasian, I mean we can only use that one angry Cadian head so many times...)
While I'm posting, I thought I might say a few things that I don't recall getting said in one of these threads before:
First, I think it's fair to conclude that GW only seems to include racial representation for what ever setting or genre they're borrowing from. Hence, as mentioned, the Arab looking army is Arab, the Mongol looking army is Mongolian, the Stalin era Russia army is white, and the Guys From Predator look like the guys from Predator. (when they're not looking like Rambo, anyway...)
But, what about appearance traits that appear again and again in 40k? Say, the gauntness we see on so many Imperial commanders, to the extent that the most famous commissar character is literally named Gaunt? I recently took an art course that dealt with the Romanesque and Gothic period of the Catholic church, an entity which provides 40k with much of it's inspiration, and found the same style. It seems Catholic art of that era stretches the figure, making humans skinny and gaunt, dehumanizing them and providing an other-worldly quality that stood in contrast to the Greek influence which exaggerated human physical perfection. As such, I think this look is as much a part of the mood of 40k as all of the Gothic architecture, and due to the European nature of the Catholic church in those days, characters meant to evoke the Gothic period tend to be white.
That said, I'd still enjoy seeing greater variety, in particular of the style seen in Colonel Schaffer's Last Chancers. In that box we find both multi-racial and multi-gender figures serving together, implying this must occur in the Imperial Guard at large. I know in the Imperium of my imagination, they don't especially care who they slap the helmet on and hand a lasgun. All that is important is that they march forward, remain loyal, and hit their targets roughly 50% of the time.
Sure 40 thousandish years of mix and match may have evened everyone out a bit but there are still going to be examples of planets that the now native population have adapted to the area. If anything there should be More flavors of human than less. Whos to say that theres not a planet out there where people have developed an entirely different shade of skin to protect them from a star whos output is completely different than sol? Or as previously stated have adapted in other ways... Oh wait they have ratlings and ogryn and demiurg...
The actual human population of Nocturne has light skin.
That's stated flat out somehwere?
Nightlords novels. Blonde hair is seen as extremely rare on Nocturn too.
What book was that?
You sure you aren't thinking of the cave dwellers that live on nocturne?
It honestly makes no sense to me that while the radiation of the sun would turn the Salamander's skin coal black with their gene seed mishap, that it would just leave the people who live on the surface of Nocturne as white.
And yes this topic is going to continue to come up because people actually notice it.
The OP raises a valid point. Other people have clearly noticed it too, so this topic isn't going to go away anytime soon.
Does it matter? It depends really on who you think 40K should be appealing too, and if you think the lack of ethnic diversity as well as the lack of female representation (though this is less prevalent with SoB, Wyches etc representing females in the universe) is not discouraging players from other ethnic groups in getting into the game.
But really it's highly likely that "the lack of ethnic diversity" is simply down to the fact that the 40k universe was created by white middle/upper-class British male people back in the 80's. And without a shadow of a doubt, it's main customer base is very specific: White middle-class males. So why would they ever bother with making an effort to make a more ethnically diverse universe?
Honestly, knowing GW, if they thought they were losing customers (and therefore money) because of the lack of 'ethnic' models and fluff, they would've rectified it a long time. ago. So chances are it doesn't discourage non-white ethnicities at all from the game. I mean, look at how popular 40k has become in Asian countries like Japan. It obviously hasn't put them off.
GW isn't racist (corporations don't generally care about race or sexual orientation, unless they are also certain Republican candidates in the US) and the prevalence of white characters and models over other ethnicities is simply down to the fact it is based in Europe with a fan base that is overwhelmingly white middle/upper class.
Would I like to see more ethnically diverse models and characters though? Yeah it would be cool. Why not? Diversity brings more depth to an already fascinating and rich 40k universe. I liked the black librarian in Dawn of War, and I think the 'Sergeant Apone' from Aliens idea for an IG character is good.
And on a similar note, female IG conversion packs would be very welcome by me and most other people I think. The female IG officer in space marine was very cool.
After so many years of race mingling, all of humanity is a nice shade of pretty light brown.
People say this a lot, but I've never bought it. Humans are by nature tribal creatures. We tend to seek out people like us as mates and by in large self-segregate unless forced together. (please, no flood of "But I've got an Asian girlfriend" or "I've got lots of black friends" personal aneccdotes here. I'm talking about the general rule rather than the exceptions) Human bio-diversity is probably not going anywere in the future. The percentages may change here and there as birth rates rise and fall. (such as we are seeing in the West in recent decades) But I doubt distinct racial groups of humanity are going anywere.
But really it's highly likely that "the lack of ethnic diversity" is simply down to the fact that the 40k universe was created by white middle/upper-class British male people back in the 80's. And without a shadow of a doubt, it's main customer base is very specific: White middle-class males. So why would they ever bother with making an effort to make a more ethnically diverse universe?
This is certainly true. The same could be said of the wargaming hobby as a whole. The wargaming hobby is very "White" *. use blacks in the US as an example. Their percentage of the US population hovers around 12-13%. I've been all over the country to various conventions and visited store and other places were the local gamers gather. I've never seen any gaming community anywere were the percentage of black gamers comes anywere close to the overall population percentage. My first hand knowledge is based upon the US only, but I understand the gaming demographic in the UK is very similar. Other non-White races such as Asians for example,(and here in the US Hispanics/Mestizos) is higher than blacks, but still not very close to their overall representation in the population. The lack of "diversity" in 40k, it's fluff, and the way most people 9especially the studio artiss) paint their figures is simply a representation of the hobby and thus the target audience. This is not a value judgement on my part. Just a statement based upon my own observations.
TR
*-Other hobbies are similarly very much a White thing too. I've done WW2 reenacting one and off since the late '80s and I can count the number of Black reenactors I've met on one hand. Once again other non-Whites are more common, but still a rare sight.
Who is "us" in 40k? A different coloured person from your planet and culture (feral, industrial, ...) or a same coloured person from another planet and culture? And who is "us" when both planets are attacked by Orks?
And who is "us" when both planets are attacked by Orks?
the history teaches us that in the case of a total anihiliation of your own civilisation/race group , you see "yours" or "ours" as your closest kin or tribe. Natural thing . First thing humans would try to do durning any invasion would be to make gain money/power on top of the backs of other humans. It is a natural way to act.
And who is "us" when both planets are attacked by Orks?
the history teaches us that in the case of a total anihiliation of your own civilisation/race group , you see "yours" or "ours" as your closest kin or tribe. Natural thing . First thing humans would try to do durning any invasion would be to make gain money/power on top of the backs of other humans. It is a natural way to act.
Agreed.
See my comment above about the nature of humanity being tribal.
On another note, almost every time one of these "why is 40k so White?" threads pops up at least one or two people make the comment that non-White skin tones are harder to paint. This has actually not been my experience. Taking a quick inventory in the game room I can quickly see the following:
-Almost 200 28mm Rhodesian Bush War figures of which only about a quarter are White. (the rest are terrorists, Mozmbique regular army, or black Rhodesian troops)
-About a company each of three factions for the South African Border War in 15mm
-28mm armies for The 1884 Sudan Campaign and the 1879 Zulu War.
-A Simba force for the "Simba Revolt" stage of the First Congo War, once again in 28mm
So I've had a good bit of experiece in painting dark skin tones and I actually find painting Black/Negro flesh tones easier and quicker than painting Whites/Caucasians. (one of the reasons it goes faster is that I can skip the deepest shading step due to the dark color) so the "it's eiser to paint them White" is not really that unversal a statement.
You sure you aren't thinking of the cave dwellers that live on nocturne?
It honestly makes no sense to me that while the radiation of the sun would turn the Salamander's skin coal black with their gene seed mishap, that it would just leave the people who live on the surface of Nocturne as white.
And yes this topic is going to continue to come up because people actually notice it.
Cave Dwellers? Nocturn is a planet without sunlight. The people there all have black hair and black eyes. Their skin is near translucent. They're troglodytes.
In all of the Nightlords books I'm pretty sure it mentions those key factors. There is also an explanation for blonde hair in... I think the second book. They basically say that any blonde hair on Nocturn was an albino.
The salamanders are black because of their geneseed. The Nightlords are pale/white because of their environment.
I still don't believe that their would be much racial diversity this far into the future. It's not enough time for man to evolve into a wider range of genetic variance.
Besides... Humans stop evolving when we invented agriculture.
Besides... Humans stop evolving when we invented agriculture.
That's... not exactly true. Evolution is a way a species deals with selective pressures. As humanity developed, we developed our own ways to deal with selective pressures, eg medicine, which meant more people survived to childbearing age, which meant their genes continued.
However, that doesn't mean that humanity stopped evolving as there would have still been many genetic diseases that would still have killed people before they could pass their genes on. An interesting read is about how Sickle Cell Anaemia is very common still in Africa, because it actually provides a selective advantage against malaria.
Besides... Humans stop evolving when we invented agriculture.
That's... not exactly true. Evolution is a way a species deals with selective pressures. As humanity developed, we developed our own ways to deal with selective pressures, eg medicine, which meant more people survived to childbearing age, which meant their genes continued.
However, that doesn't mean that humanity stopped evolving as there would have still been many genetic diseases that would still have killed people before they could pass their genes on. An interesting read is about how Sickle Cell Anaemia is very common still in Africa, because it actually provides a selective advantage against malaria.
Should I copy paste my previous comment from last week? The week before?
Perhaps I should just put a link to one of the countless threads on the exact same subject.
Maybe a Mod could just lock this before it becomes a stupid argument about race or something.
Better yet, maybe people should use the search function so we can stop seeing the same crap pop up every 7 to 14 days...
Maybe an even better option would be to not post!
Edit: Aww, now I feel bad. It looks like you actually contributed later.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CuddlySquig wrote: In my head I have sometimes entertained the idea that the Imperium is as racist as it is xenophobic. Perhaps sometime in their ancient past they considered everyone who wasn't white to be a mutant and they were accordingly persecuted (but here and there, some were tolerated). Obviously the Imperium has a standing criteria of what it considers properly human. Does skin colour factor in there too? I know GW would never elaborate on such a theory, but given how the Imperium thinks, it does seem to be an idea.
In this thread someone used the term "Vanilla Humans" to which I will lol eternal.
In this thread Kroothawk linked us the dragonforge.com black celebrity heads to which I am grateful, because if GW is at fault for anything it's making the same head over and over again with slight variations.
In this thread many posters with more fluff knowledge than the OP mentioned that many factions do have origins that are outside of the "traditional white" sterotype that the OP was concerned about. Also painters paint what they like, and you are always free to paint what you want.
My 12th company of the Dark Angels is an all dark skinned company for as long as I've been painting. I really out to get a camera besides my phone, because they're badass and need to be represented. Now it's off to Dragonforge.com thanks Kroot!
Cave Dwellers? Nocturn is a planet without sunlight. The people there all have black hair and black eyes. Their skin is near translucent. They're troglodytes.
In all of the Nightlords books I'm pretty sure it mentions those key factors. There is also an explanation for blonde hair in... I think the second book. They basically say that any blonde hair on Nocturn was an albino.
The salamanders are black because of their geneseed. The Nightlords are pale/white because of their environment.
I still don't believe that their would be much racial diversity this far into the future. It's not enough time for man to evolve into a wider range of genetic variance.
Besides... Humans stop evolving when we invented agriculture.
The Night Lord homeworld is Nostramo. Salamanders is Nocturne.
And there should be more diversity if you're going to take the world as an example with white people making up around 20.25% of the world's population.
SaintTom wrote: And there should be more diversity if you're going to take the world as an example with white people making up around 20.25% of the world's population.
Why? It's not GW's job to represent all existing races on current earth in their game. You've got a paintbrush, make you're own intrepretations.
Besides... Humans stop evolving when we invented agriculture.
That's... not exactly true. Evolution is a way a species deals with selective pressures. As humanity developed, we developed our own ways to deal with selective pressures, eg medicine, which meant more people survived to childbearing age, which meant their genes continued.
However, that doesn't mean that humanity stopped evolving as there would have still been many genetic diseases that would still have killed people before they could pass their genes on. An interesting read is about how Sickle Cell Anaemia is very common still in Africa, because it actually provides a selective advantage against malaria.
Humanity hasn't developed. Our technology has.
Which would be interperted as mental evolution. Biological evolution would be viewed as not being required from this point on. Our bodies are more or less perfect for our current environement(Earth)
It would take massive climate pressures for even a minor change to our current body plan. I'm not talking climate change of anything like that. Temperatures would need to significantly increase or decrease on average for any change to occur.
The thing that could possably result in further biological evolution would be us moving to other planets with different gravitational pulls. That would force a change in bone and muscle structure.
in cadian blood there's a black commissar and in one of the ciaphas cain novel there's an entire regiment of black guardsmen. there are your not looking hard enough
Grey Templar wrote: Not sure what, if any, effect that can have. Are we just going to weed out the people that have this condition out of the genepool.
Not really. Nothing new has been created. We've just gotten rid of something.
If I take control of the world and eliminate everyone of a certain skin tone/some other trait, I havn't advanced the evolution of the species. I've just eliminated a portion of the genepool. Thats (un)natural selection.
As an afro-african male, i find the the matter of race and skin tone very irrelevant when we have TYRANIDS! eatting up everyone in the courtyard as a select few try to denoate the stash of nuclear weapons we have stashed in the vaults underground.
Wesley Snipes (Simon says bleed!)
Blondie Dred from Bad Boys 2
The guy from Bill and Ted
Second row:
Michael Clarke Duncan (god rest his soul) w/bionic eye
Keegan-Michael Key
Lawrance Fishburne as Morphius
Third row:
Obama w/ cyborg eye
Obama
Obama w/ eye patch
Those are really nice sculpts. They should make more dred-heads. I would so make a marine army with all rasta-ish marines. None of the pot references, however.
I think the third guy on the 1st row is Dennis Rodman; he was also in a movie with cybermonks similar to the ad mech
SaintTom wrote: And there should be more diversity if you're going to take the world as an example with white people making up around 20.25% of the world's population.
Why? It's not GW's job to represent all existing races on current earth in their game. You've got a paintbrush, make you're own intrepretations.
I don't think I've complained about it, and yes, I do paint my miniatures with darker skin. It's not hard.
If you read what I was quoting then maybe you'd know what I was talking about.
But really it's highly likely that "the lack of ethnic diversity" is simply down to the fact that the 40k universe was created by white middle/upper-class British male people back in the 80's. And without a shadow of a doubt, it's main customer base is very specific: White middle-class males. So why would they ever bother with making an effort to make a more ethnically diverse universe?
This is certainly true. The same could be said of the wargaming hobby as a whole. The wargaming hobby is very "White" *. use blacks in the US as an example. Their percentage of the US population hovers around 12-13%. I've been all over the country to various conventions and visited store and other places were the local gamers gather. I've never seen any gaming community anywere were the percentage of black gamers comes anywere close to the overall population percentage. My first hand knowledge is based upon the US only, but I understand the gaming demographic in the UK is very similar. Other non-White races such as Asians for example,(and here in the US Hispanics/Mestizos) is higher than blacks, but still not very close to their overall representation in the population. The lack of "diversity" in 40k, it's fluff, and the way most people 9especially the studio artiss) paint their figures is simply a representation of the hobby and thus the target audience. This is not a value judgement on my part. Just a statement based upon my own observations.
TR
*-Other hobbies are similarly very much a White thing too. I've done WW2 reenacting one and off since the late '80s and I can count the number of Black reenactors I've met on one hand. Once again other non-Whites are more common, but still a rare sight.
Pretty much the point I was trying to get across, except you elaborated the point much more thoroughly.
Out of interest, why do you think the percentage of black people involved in 40k is much lower than the actual population? I think it could be because black people in the US are only about 12% of the population and about 47% percent of blacks are middle class (depending on definition) and thus black people make about 5% of the middle class population. So, if we assume that the vast majority of 40k players/collectors have at least middle-class income, we could say only 40% MIGHT (just might) have an interest in 40k, with the other 60% having too low an income to have much chance of becoming interest.
Of course, that 5% is just black people that MIGHT be interested. I bet only a tiny minority of that 5% would actually start collecting 40k, as only a tiny minority of white people become involved in 40k (well, more than in the 90's, but still a small minority nonetheless).
So actually, when you break it down, you are probably looking at some minuscule number of black people - due to socio-economic reasons explained above (income levels and disparities between ethnic groups) - who actually play 40k. Couple this with cultural factors and differences between ethnic groups and the figure is probably as low as something like 0.2%.
So in conclusion, the lack of black people in 40k is just a reflection of trends within society, albeit inequalities that are still prominent in western society. But it's in no way intentional by GW or remotely racist.
*Note, it's worth mentioning that the assumption that everyone who plays 40k has a middle-class income or higher is less plausible these days with the advent of ebay buying-selling models on the cheap. Indeed, by definition I am not even on a middle-class income, yet I still collect 40k. So I accept that the above argument isn't set in concrete.
For those that keep saying Tallarn are Arab or anything like it. In the Tallarn BL novel they go out of their way to say they are Blond haired and white skin! They don't even let the reader imagine what race he is.
SaintTom wrote: And there should be more diversity if you're going to take the world as an example with white people making up around 20.25% of the world's population.
Why? It's not GW's job to represent all existing races on current earth in their game. You've got a paintbrush, make you're own intrepretations.
I don't think I've complained about it, and yes, I do paint my miniatures with darker skin. It's not hard.
If you read what I was quoting then maybe you'd know what I was talking about.
I did read what you were quoting, but if you want to break it down to me just to make sure we're talking apples and apples then please do so. I'll check it out after lunch. My point was that our brushes transcend all perceived racial slights here in the grimdark.
CDK wrote: For those that keep saying Tallarn are Arab or anything like it. In the Tallarn BL novel they go out of their way to say they are Blond haired and white skin! They don't even let the reader imagine what race he is.
Lawrance of Arabia was the inspiration for that army. Infact all the IG armies were based on British armies*.
You don't see Blue vs Grey guardsmen. Nor Cowboy guardsmen. Or Zulu guardsmen, ect.
*Except The Americans in Viet... I mean Catachans.
SaintTom wrote: And there should be more diversity if you're going to take the world as an example with white people making up around 20.25% of the world's population.
Why? It's not GW's job to represent all existing races on current earth in their game. You've got a paintbrush, make you're own intrepretations.
I don't think I've complained about it, and yes, I do paint my miniatures with darker skin. It's not hard.
If you read what I was quoting then maybe you'd know what I was talking about.
I did read what you were quoting, but if you want to break it down to me just to make sure we're talking apples and apples then please do so. I'll check it out after lunch. My point was that our brushes transcend all perceived racial slights here in the grimdark.
I know, and I was replying earlier to the fact that DeffDread was saying that there would be such a balance as we see because of evolution or something, but if you want to look at it through evolution, then there should be more diversity, not less.
Which would be interperted as mental evolution. Biological evolution would be viewed as not being required from this point on. Our bodies are more or less perfect for our current environement(Earth)
that is not how gentics works . it takes around 40k for a new blood line to emarge . some mutation takes less time .lactosis toleration took less then 2k years , for example. technicly one could create a new race of human much faster [all forms of mixed races] by selectiv breeding , that takes under 100-150 years , the control over the process is a problem though . plus there is the problem of changing enviroment . the way how enviroment damages the gene pool right now the chance of a succesful mass mutation is higher . A world wide disease or some sort of natural disaster would help too , but again hard to achive , because people are to mobile right now.
Imperium of Man is a direct ripoff of Thermight Empire from 2000AD Nemesis the Warlock but GW twisted it to differentiate so the facist and xenophobic evil empire from the comic books is now facist and xenophobic evil empire that is still the most noble faction around. Black people among the ranks of Space Marines would spoil the impression of intolerance and xenophoby. No reason to spoil it now, imo.
Also if you go with medieval conotation, not really a lot of black knights there and again that would spoil the impression for me. Make me a game of sf tribal wars and I'm the first to make an army of Maasai, they're great and all but leave 40k as it is, silly and over the top facist affair. There was diversity mentioned somewhere, almost every other major sf around does that, a future multicultural society so why not have one which doesn't? I am against GW doing any moves in that direction.
Not sure why this is such a delicate matter, it's a game ffs and a fiction of blasting 100 light years wide bases with black holes. Thankfuly it's UK based so the madness of political corectness is not on the level of USA yet, I guess. Selective political corectness of the latter I should say as Obama saying phrases like "polish death camps in WWII" doesn't seem to give him much trouble.
Kit temple wrote: As an afro-african male, i find the the matter of race and skin tone very irrelevant when we have TYRANIDS! eatting up everyone in the courtyard as a select few try to denoate the stash of nuclear weapons we have stashed in the vaults underground.
Thanks for the voice of reason. I enjoy playing Medieval Total War playing as Egyptians despite not being one, so obvious.
Grey Templar wrote: Actually the Imperium, and much of 40k, is ripped directly from Dune.
No it's a ripoff of the ripoffs. GW never went that far just took Thermight Empire, Rogue trooper, ABC Warriors and Judge Dredd, twisted a bit and then added a few grimdarked Hollywood cool ideas, only some details come from books like navigators from Dune or Nurgle straight from Moorcock. Every piece of Space Marine armor for example is somewhere on the pages of 2000AD comic books just not in one place, also there's that picture where chapters of Thermight Empire (with space berserkers among them heh) holding banners go to the crusade to purge the aliens.
How the maps are painted, the ornaments on pages, skulls, the Imperium one liners, flying cathedrals and many more things come straight from 2000AD. Some things in 40k appeared in great works of sf before but it's only because they were already popularised by comic books or pulp fantasy/ sf. In my opinion, people who go to Bible/ Heinlein/ Dune/ Foundation/ etc as sources for 40k go too far, only place where GW did a real research was names.
I don't blame them, I love the final effect. That it's a quick shameless ripoff is just a fact but one that is irrelevant for me. Btw fun fact Moorcock calls GW "greatest ripoffs of all time".
Plumbumbarum wrote: I don't blame them, I love the final effect. That it's a quick shameless ripoff is just a fact but one that is irrelevant for me. Btw fun fact Moorcock calls GW "greatest ripoffs of all time".
Actually world of warcraft is the greatest ripoff of all time. To think, games workshop cold shouldered them way back when. Look how that turned out!
Out of interest, why do you think the percentage of black people involved in 40k is much lower than the actual population?
Economic factors might very well play some part in it as you theorize.( Ie the higher percentage of blacks under the poverty line and all that). But on the other hand low income people routinely spend money they can ill afford on items they do not need. Using blacks as an example yet again, many poor black kids will quite readilly shell out 200$+ for a pair of name brand tennis shoes. A drive through poor areas will allow one to see a suprisingly high number of houses with satelite dishes on the roof and car with flashy/expensive accessories parked out front. Likewise, here in the US Hispanics/Mestizos have a similarly high instance of poverty as do Blacks, (although the black numbers are higher), yet they are much more commony represented in the gaming community. So the expense of gaming in general and GW product in particular is probably not as big a factor as might apear at the casual glance.
I suspect cultural differences may play as much a role as any in the phenomenon. There probably just is not that much of an interest in the black community in hobbies like table top gaming, reeanacting, and other such activities they have a low representation in. In fact in some cases there might even be a cultural hostility to such activities. I could certainly see a poor black kid getting hassled by his peers if he were to express an interest in gaming as "acting White". You see that in other activities.
Finally, the existing lack of racial minorities in gaming is probably kind of a self-fufilling thing. Like I point out above, we are tribal creatures and tend to socialize with and seek out the company of those like us. Thus the lak of blacks in the gaming hobby means there is less of an incentive for them to get involved.
In the end, although it's an interesting discusion, it really does not matter one way or another. The almost mono-racial nature of gaming and other niche hobbies is not a bad thing, nor is it a good thing. it's just a demographic reality. It is what it is, as they say. But I'm sure there are some folks out there who do alot of hand wringing and loose sleep over the fact that gaming is not very "diverse".
TR
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tolkien was a racist. Maybe not intentionally, but his book reads like a white supremacy handguide.
Wow.
That's pretty harsh and hyperbolic. Tolkien was (like pretty much everyone in his age) very ethno-centric in his views and his writing reflects it. But to say he was a "racist" (whatever that over-used, marixist construct of a word means anyway) and that his books reflect "white supremacy" is a tad silly. But if you go LOOKING to be offended at something, you can generally find it anywere.
Now you want to find a writer with "racist" (once again, wahtever that term means) views that creap into his writing, go read some R. E. Howard.*
TR
*-Not that this spoils his work in any way. Howard was an excellent author who's writing stand up even today.
Compel wrote: While the Lord of The Rings is a product of its time in some ways, this wasn't one of them.
I'm a huge Tolkien nerd, but there are reams of latent racism apparent in his work.
Not overt racism, just the 'product of the times' racism. All the bad guys are swarthy, dark skinned with squinty or slanted eyes, all the races of men who follow Sauron are dark skinned, etc. Not to say that Tolkien spent lots of time thinking about how best to describe the 'evil' humans and decided that since dark skinned humans were naturally evil, that they should take that role in his work. I think that's reading far too much into it.
It's the natural progression of his work, with euro-centric heroes, the anglo-based portions of the world (Gondor, The Shire, Rohan, etc) being the good guys and the other portions of the world being the bad guys pretty much by default because that's the way that made the most sense to him as an author, because of the latent racism prevalent in that period of time. It wasn't an overtly racist (or otherwise) decision he made, IMO, but was definitely a product of the times.
I give my catachan different skin tones, one sniper unit has a pale vampire tone, then it increases to a south beach bronze tan (Miami, Florida for non Yanks). If I feel lazy i give them all an ambiguous light brown/dark beige tone.
I think that it is a sign of how much the OP notices race for this thread to even exist. Most of us civilized folk don't even notice skin color anymore, unless you are racist. It's like that one South Park episode where Chef wants to change the flag. Watch that sometime, it's a good one.
Most of us civilized folk don't even notice skin color anymore, unless you are racist
what does those that suppose to mean ? that if someone/group sees the difference then it isnt civilised? do you know that the US or generaly the west are rather special in their mix people living side by side . you think that someone who is a not a white blond would not get noticed on island or a white person anywhere in asia . being unable to notice the difference between people based on their background is not a mark of being civilised. Never was and never will be . I mean whole idea of a civilisation is based on opposition to those different dudes.
Most of us civilized folk don't even notice skin color anymore, unless you are racist
That's awful presumptuous of you....and most likely incorrect as well. Truely "color blind" people are so rare as to be almost non-existant. If they even really exist at all. It's been my experience that many of those who claim to be "colorblind" are actually the people the most consious of race.
You don't have to be a "racist" (whatever that over-used slur means anyway) to notice race. (something that goes beyond simple skin color btw...skin color is but the most noticable of a number of differences between large gorups of humans). Your race is as much a part of who you are as is your gender, height, weight, hair color, etc.
Civilized is just the wrong word. Urbanized maybe? The point tho seems to be that the more exposed you are to other people the less you see them as "other" people.
The only Black Library books I've read that have any kind of Racial/Ethnic diversity has been ones by Dan Abbnett. Legion for example. The Tallarn book tried a bit even though they were all Lawrence of Arabia looking they tried explaining a culture that was not British. In fact he tried to set them up as being like Sunni's and Shiite's.
While I don't think GW has intentionally done racist things, they have certainly a few poor decisions to make them look that way. For myself it was when they changed Salamanders to have the mutation to make them coal black instead of being a dark skinned human. It smacked of "we don't want them black so lets make them BLACK."
I had already found that they were stereo typing other races like Mongols and Huns with the White Scars and Rough Riders. Admittedly though it's a lot harder to show "Asian" in a mini than African.
I just wish they would try a little harder to not have every one in the BL books white and British.
IIRC, race simply doesn't exist. through the eons of breeding everyone is really just the same race. Human. the genetic lines ave got to be pretty much blurred bu the year 40000.
So in regards to the thought of ethnic diversity, there isn't any ethnicities to speak of. they're all human. (unless they're not)
In 2009 Mariamu Staford, a Tanzanian woman in her mid-20s, was sleeping in her hut when a group of men broke in and chopped off her arms. In the shadow of the Rwandan genocide and perennial war in Congo, where violence against women has become so common as to be considered a war tactic, Staford’s story is sadly less shocking than it might be.
But Staford wasn’t attacked for tribalism, demoralization or sex. She has albinism, a medical condition in which the body produces little or no pigment that exists in every ethnic group throughout the world. In East Africa albinos’ limbs are highly valued — often fetching thousands of dollars on the black market — by witch doctors who use the bones in potions they sell to those who think they bring prosperity.
Since 2007 in Tanzania, 64 people with albinism have been murdered for their body parts. Fourteen others have been mutilated, including a 13-year-old girl whose right arm was severed as she lay sleeping next to her mother.
In 2009 Mariamu Staford, a Tanzanian woman in her mid-20s, was sleeping in her hut when a group of men broke in and chopped off her arms. In the shadow of the Rwandan genocide and perennial war in Congo, where violence against women has become so common as to be considered a war tactic, Staford’s story is sadly less shocking than it might be.
But Staford wasn’t attacked for tribalism, demoralization or sex. She has albinism, a medical condition in which the body produces little or no pigment that exists in every ethnic group throughout the world. In East Africa albinos’ limbs are highly valued — often fetching thousands of dollars on the black market — by witch doctors who use the bones in potions they sell to those who think they bring prosperity.
Since 2007 in Tanzania, 64 people with albinism have been murdered for their body parts. Fourteen others have been mutilated, including a 13-year-old girl whose right arm was severed as she lay sleeping next to her mother.
That's only albino's, so not exactly a normal white person. Though it certainly sounds interesting.
@Rimmy: Race and Ethnicity aren't the same things.
Rimmy wrote: IIRC, race simply doesn't exist. through the eons of breeding everyone is really just the same race. Human. the genetic lines ave got to be pretty much blurred bu the year 40000.
So in regards to the thought of ethnic diversity, there isn't any ethnicities to speak of. they're all human. (unless they're not)
After only 10,000 years on a new planet with new food, atmosphere, gravity, radiation, and other environmental factors it's going to change people. Skin can change, eyes, height, weight, etc. This 40,000 years! This is also a universe that mentions mutants a lot too. Some natural and some not. Some have physical mutations and some have mental. There can be worlds where humans used gene therapy in the Dark Age to breath toxic atmospheres or even liquid.
And that's just the physical changes. There's also many cultural changes. Again the only one who has touched on it is Dan Abbnett a few times. Most of the other authors seem to think everyone is white, british, or a stereotype.
SaintTom wrote: @Rimmy: Race and Ethnicity aren't the same things.
I am well aware of this. perhaps my stament was not well written.
within the human RACE, the ethnicities we currently know, will have bred themselves out (humerously, think Goo Backs episode of south park) I would imagine by the age of strife ethnicities wouldn't exist and everyone would be the same.
Expanding out into the universe, adding mutations etc etc would certainly change genomes enough to create new and diffeent "races".
However, to apply current ethnic backgrounds of current times, would be futile.
When they say the Salamanders are "black" they mean BLACK. not African or African descent, they mean BLACK. depending on which version of the fluff you go with, it still says black, it doesn't say black-guy. see what i'm saying?
I don't think anyone would be "white" by any stretch in the future by that time. its a recessive genetic trait.
besides, its a game. who cares? more to that point, we're all gamers, who cares about ethnicity now? I certainly don't.
Unless you're elven. or you think you're an elf. then you can die.
Rimmy wrote: IIRC, race simply doesn't exist. through the eons of breeding everyone is really just the same race. Human. the genetic lines ave got to be pretty much blurred bu the year 40000.
So in regards to the thought of ethnic diversity, there isn't any ethnicities to speak of. they're all human. (unless they're not)
After only 10,000 years on a new planet with new food, atmosphere, gravity, radiation, and other environmental factors it's going to change people. Skin can change, eyes, height, weight, etc. This 40,000 years! This is also a universe that mentions mutants a lot too. Some natural and some not. Some have physical mutations and some have mental. There can be worlds where humans used gene therapy in the Dark Age to breath toxic atmospheres or even liquid.
And that's just the physical changes. There's also many cultural changes. Again the only one who has touched on it is Dan Abbnett a few times. Most of the other authors seem to think everyone is white, british, or a stereotype.
Can't really argue with that logic. it certainly pushes the boundaries of -ism doesn't it? raceism takes on a WHOLE nother level. Xenophobes. or Xenophiles. depends on how much hentai you watch.
Grey Templar wrote: Technically, the reason Salamanders are coal black is because their geneseed has a flaw that reacts to the radiation on their homeworld, causing their jet black skin.
The actual human population of Nocturne has light skin.
From what I read in the fluff, I understand it them to be black but of course lighter than the salamanders. Maybe its a gene-seed mutation or maybe its not. The emperor is made up of many sorcerers and shaman in the lore. Its possible for one to come out black, maybe we should have Maury do a DNA test to prove it. :-P
I think if the Imperium of man didn't have Fascist overtones then we wouldn't be discussing this. I've put the definition in for those who don't know what it is. It can be argued that it's not but it's certainly not democratic. It's not like the Emperor was elected.
If there was not these overtones then I don't think the feeling of racism would be there as much. I do think though GW has tried to turn what would be hate towards a human race into hate towards aliens. Since we don't even know if aliens even exist then no feelings are hurt.
fascism |ˈfa sh ˌizəm| (also Fascism)
noun
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
• (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.
The term Fascism was first used of the totalitarian right-wing nationalist regime of Mussolini in Italy (1922–43), and the regimes of the Nazis in Germany and Franco in Spain were also fascist. Fascism tends to include a belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group, a contempt for democracy, an insistence on obedience to a powerful leader, and a strong demagogic approach.
SaintTom wrote: @Rimmy: Race and Ethnicity aren't the same things.
I am well aware of this. perhaps my stament was not well written.
within the human RACE, the ethnicities we currently know, will have bred themselves out (humerously, think Goo Backs episode of south park) I would imagine by the age of strife ethnicities wouldn't exist and everyone would be the same.
Expanding out into the universe, adding mutations etc etc would certainly change genomes enough to create new and diffeent "races".
However, to apply current ethnic backgrounds of current times, would be futile.
When they say the Salamanders are "black" they mean BLACK. not African or African descent, they mean BLACK. depending on which version of the fluff you go with, it still says black, it doesn't say black-guy. see what i'm saying?
I don't think anyone would be "white" by any stretch in the future by that time. its a recessive genetic trait.
besides, its a game. who cares? more to that point, we're all gamers, who cares about ethnicity now? I certainly don't.
Unless you're elven. or you think you're an elf. then you can die.
People are not talking about different races of humans though. We are talking about people of different ethnicity, such as the Vitrians from one of the Gaunts Ghosts books. They are very different in how they operate and in the face that they are all are dark skinned.
Now i know it's hard to grasp, but this is a much bigger difference than that Cadians are white with purple eyes, and Steel legionaries are white and love to wear gas masks like the DKoK like to do.
If you read basically any of the BL books or in most codex's then when they basically describe any people such as the soldiers or whatnot, its usually always white, or just a lil tan.
I mean hell, even the Tallaran's are just British troopers dressed up in desert fatigues.
And I believe people care in that if there are people which are similar to you its much easier to connect with the characters. I partially really loved and got into 40k because of the Salamanders as they were painted before with the dark brown skin. A small blotch of color in what seemed like basically a white/ alien universe.
It's even one reason why most video game characters that people play as (when you don't get a choice) are white, in that most of the players are probably going to be white and its easier for them to care and relate to the person when the outsides are somewhat similar.
What I'm trying to say is that showing off the less (almost never) seen populations of humans wouldn't bring the sky falling in on your precious game.
That said I do believe the recent Fear to Tread does well with this issue.
First off, Space Marines aren't Caucasian. They're barely human! Even fluff mentions their questionable humanity, it's just that declaring every Space Marine a mutant/xenos would pretty much be suicide, even for the Inquisition. Their ethnicity is 'Space Marine'. Secondly, their skin tone supposedly changes with exposure to radiation, and the Salamanders have a mutation which makes their skin-tone-changy-radiation-protecty Space Marine organ turn it up to 11 all the time (Although, I like them as 'Afro-black' Space Marines rather than 'coal-black with red eyes', but that's just personal preference). It's definitely possible that a black man, given Space Marine treatment, would become white due to... whatever it's called, that organ that changes their skin tone but I can't be bothered to look up. I don't mean Cauasian-coloured, either, I mean alabaster - until exposed to any sort of radiation, in which case, his skin would adapt just enough to protect him - just as a white "Caucasian" man would become far darker in skin tone after being Space Marineified and then exposed to higher radiation levels. Neither man would be their original ethnicity - they'd just be a Space Marine, and whether or not they're even human any more is up for debate.
Thirdly, I love when people talk about worlds. Cadia, Catachan, all that. These aren't towns. It's not the state of Cadia, Cadiasville, in the country of Cadia. It's a god-darn planet. You know what Earth is? A planet. Wait, everyone on Earth is white, and black/Asian/Eastern/etc people are from space? Oh my! Let's think about why ethnicities exist. Black folk are from Africa (mostly), and why is that? Because it's hot and sunny, and the vastly increased amount of melanin (among other things) in their skin protects them from sun rays in ways that the skin of white people does not. It's really that simple. All ethnic groups are due to different conditions, or just being separate for a very long time - ie the Age of Strife. It doesn't matter if the entire population of colonists to World A were white, eventually the environment of World A would change them, and in different ways depending on where they were. I know 40k has a terrible time with representing worlds as more than something akin to a single country, but even so. Catachans aren't black, or white, or whatever. They're <insert Catachan race here>. I'm sure Catachan has countries in it, and that those black guys are from a country or area on the planet where blackness is common due to the environment (or they're descended from someone who is). If the entire human race moved to a planet that had Africa-like conditions across its entire surface, somehow, then we'd all be black, eventually.
Frozen Ocean wrote: First off, Space Marines aren't Caucasian. They're barely human! Even fluff mentions their questionable humanity, it's just that declaring every Space Marine a mutant/xenos would pretty much be suicide, even for the Inquisition. Their ethnicity is 'Space Marine'. Secondly, their skin tone supposedly changes with exposure to radiation, and the Salamanders have a mutation which makes their skin-tone-changy-radiation-protecty Space Marine organ turn it up to 11 all the time (Although, I like them as 'Afro-black' Space Marines rather than 'coal-black with red eyes', but that's just personal preference). It's definitely possible that a black man, given Space Marine treatment, would become white due to... whatever it's called, that organ that changes their skin tone but I can't be bothered to look up. I don't mean Cauasian-coloured, either, I mean alabaster - until exposed to any sort of radiation, in which case, his skin would adapt just enough to protect him - just as a white "Caucasian" man would become far darker in skin tone after being Space Marineified and then exposed to higher radiation levels. Neither man would be their original ethnicity - they'd just be a Space Marine, and whether or not they're even human any more is up for debate.
So a man with a prostetic leg is a different ethnicity?
You know what Earth is? A planet. Wait, everyone on Earth is white, and black/Asian/Eastern/etc people are from space? Oh my!
The "brown" races are from Earth. Technically the south americans. It's the white/black/asian/indian races that are from space... The Pleiadian cultures.
Let's think about why ethnicities exist. Black folk are from Africa (mostly), and why is that?
Because they came from a different world. Africa is a jungle. With lots of trees and shade. People aren't exposed to sunlight all the time. No more than any other race.
How can you explain a polar bear? Their skin is solid black yet they don't live in Africa, they live in the arctic.
All ethnic groups are due to different conditions
Okay, let's say white man came from the northern areas of the world. Why are they white? To blend in with the snow? Because they live underground 24/7?
If it had anything to do with environment why did man lose all of his body hair in cold environments only to resort to killing animals to wear their protective coats?
Wouldn't white man just "change with his environment" and grow thicker white hides?
CDK wrote: I had already found that they were stereo typing other races like Mongols and Huns with the White Scars and Rough Riders. Admittedly though it's a lot harder to show "Asian" in a mini than African.
Agreed. Out of the different IG regiments in the Codex, I found the Attilans to have the most poorly-written fluff.
Heck, I have a person of color in each of my IG squads. I even have a commissar done up as Red Skull, without his "human" mask.
I also have some females in my IG army, including a commissar.
So a man with a prostetic leg is a different ethnicity?
No. Space Marines are totally changed from whatever they were before. It's less that a man becomes a Space Marine, more like a man is broken down and some of his bits are used to manufacture a Space Marine.
Because they came from a different world. Africa is a jungle. With lots of trees and shade. People aren't exposed to sunlight all the time. No more than any other race.
Can't know that. It's not just sunlight, it's other forms of radiation, too. I highly doubt that all of Catachan is exposed to exactly the same level of radiation/sunlight as every other part.
How can you explain a polar bear? Their skin is solid black yet they don't live in Africa, they live in the arctic.
Is their external surface black? No, they're white. They're white because their fur is white. Can you explain why a black man has red underneath his skin? Does that mean he needs to blend in to MARS?
Okay, let's say white man came from the northern areas of the world. Why are they white? To blend in with the snow? Because they live underground 24/7?
If it had anything to do with environment why did man lose all of his body hair in cold environments only to resort to killing animals to wear their protective coats?
Because adding additional melanin to the skin for absolutely no reason is just a total waste of totally good metabolic energy and resource. When you don't have to put x amount of food into your skin, you need to eat slightly less, you do better at surviving.
DeffDred wrote: Wouldn't white man just "change with his environment" and grow thicker white hides?
He did. With technology. Other animals would - dogs moved to Africa that have, in few generations, lost most of their fur to help keep cool - but man adapted using intelligence and technology. More likely is that man would simply not have moved into colder regions without the ability to wear clothes, make fires, etc.
EDIT: Polar bears have black skin because black absorbs heat more effectively. Their white outer surface is composed of hollow transulent tubes that function as insulation. The black underlayer helps keep that heat in.
You decicde which colour your costum chapter or Regiment has.
So dont blame GW, that they created a dominat white skin based game in the 90s (not much from the 80s fluff still exists) when they had nearly 100% white customers.
It seems you have a really hard time understanding English, as we have said numerous times now that this was never about any accusation of racism. Get it? What do I have to do to spell that out? It was a perfectly reasonable question, certainly more reasonable than discussing my little pony space marines...I was just curious. Seriously, why do people jump down your throat on dakka when you ask perfectly reasonable questions? Frustrating to say the least.
As for the person who said this is one of many threads that discuss the same topic and this thread should be locked: Well, I didn't find any. I also happen to have a business to help run so don't have much time to search endlessly through threads. So if you don't like it, don't reply. It's really that simple. You are just wasting your time moaning...Surely, you have something better to do? What's worse is now you've wasted my time having to reply to you. *le sigh*
Or you have a hard time, because you totaly missed my point.
Okay, let's say white man came from the northern areas of the world. Why are they white? To blend in with the snow? Because they live underground 24/7?
If it had anything to do with environment why did man lose all of his body hair in cold environments only to resort to killing animals to wear their protective coats?
Because adding additional melanin to the skin for absolutely no reason is just a total waste of totally good metabolic energy and resource. When you don't have to put x amount of food into your skin, you need to eat slightly less, you do better at surviving.
It's not only that. If you live in a place where there's not much sunlight, having a lot of melanin is actually detrimental. People need some sunlight for their bodies to synthetise vitamin D. So a dark skinned person living in a place with little sunlight needs to have a diet rich with vitamin D, or they'll develop a deficiency.
And I hope that DeffDred was joking, as what he wrote was utter gibberish.
Oh, and I can't understand why they changed Salamanders from African black to jet black. They used to look good. Now they just look like someone forgot to paint their faces.
There are several problems I see with most of the posts in this topic.
First off: Ethnicity. Ethnicity has nothing to do with appearance; instead it is based on CULTURAL DIFFERENCES. 40k quite frankly acknowledges and has "ethnic diversity" pretty well represented.
Pick two Imperial Guard regiments (or marine chapters) and you will see differences in their fighting styles, dress, etc based upon their cultural heritage. Some of that might be a direct translation from Mongols or Romans or whatever, but the fact is that each of those groups have a culture (and therefore ethnicity) that is represented on the table top.
Quite frankly, Ethnicity can only be self identified.
That aside, let's move on to what the question should have been: Lack of Race diversity in 40k.
This is more interesting because it has been demonstrated that race has no biological or genetic basis. The differences in features such as facial appearance are superficial and are there simply due to slight environmental differences.
Further, those visual differences cross politically created "racial" boundaries and can easily lead to a single person being classified under several different "races". To state it a different way, biologists have yet to come up with a test that allows them to categorize a given sample into a particular "sub species" of humans.
Where does that leave us?
Well, quite frankly I would expect humans that were dropped on a random planet in the IoM to develop interesting differences completely outside of those seen on this planet today. Maybe purple or bright orange skin due to the color/type of the local sun. Maybe their eyes angle a different direction or their noses grow longer or shorter. Maybe the local fauna turns them green or causes them to develop sharper teeth. Even gravity itself would play a part by making them more muscular or willowy; perhaps even taller or shorter than Earth "norm".
Basically, I would expect them to only look superficially the way we do while having almost the exact same genetic makeup.
CDK wrote: I think if the Imperium of man didn't have Fascist overtones then we wouldn't be discussing this. I've put the definition in for those who don't know what it is. It can be argued that it's not but it's certainly not democratic. It's not like the Emperor was elected.
If there was not these overtones then I don't think the feeling of racism would be there as much. I do think though GW has tried to turn what would be hate towards a human race into hate towards aliens. Since we don't even know if aliens even exist then no feelings are hurt.
fascism |ˈfa sh ˌizəm| (also Fascism)
noun
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
• (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.
The term Fascism was first used of the totalitarian right-wing nationalist regime of Mussolini in Italy (1922–43), and the regimes of the Nazis in Germany and Franco in Spain were also fascist. Fascism tends to include a belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group, a contempt for democracy, an insistence on obedience to a powerful leader, and a strong demagogic approach.
In the case of the Imperium the Ethnic/National group = Humans.
So humans are superior to alien races(including mutants that may have been humans many generations ago)
Okay, let's say white man came from the northern areas of the world. Why are they white? To blend in with the snow? Because they live underground 24/7?
If it had anything to do with environment why did man lose all of his body hair in cold environments only to resort to killing animals to wear their protective coats?
Because adding additional melanin to the skin for absolutely no reason is just a total waste of totally good metabolic energy and resource. When you don't have to put x amount of food into your skin, you need to eat slightly less, you do better at surviving.
It's not only that. If you live in a place where there's not much sunlight, having a lot of melanin is actually detrimental. People need some sunlight for their bodies to synthetise vitamin D. So a dark skinned person living in a place with little sunlight needs to have a diet rich with vitamin D, or they'll develop a deficiency.
And I hope that DeffDred was joking, as what he wrote was utter gibberish.
Partially joking. I do believe in the Pleiadian Theory but most of the points I brought up are old debates about racial traits.
I just wanted to see how Dakka would answer them... as the scientific community hasn't yet.
Partially joking. I do believe in the Pleiadian Theory but most of the points I brought up are old debates about racial traits.
I just wanted to see how Dakka would answer them... as the scientific community hasn't yet.
Oh wow! If science has not convinced you that our ancestors were not space aliens, I doubt Dakka will.
Reasons of varying levels of melanin in people developed in different environments is pretty well understood. (Hint: space aliens are not involved, sun and vitamin D are.)
EDIT: But thanks. This was certainly fresh and surprising development in a 40K racial diversity thread.
Partially joking. I do believe in the Pleiadian Theory but most of the points I brought up are old debates about racial traits.
I just wanted to see how Dakka would answer them... as the scientific community hasn't yet.
Oh wow! If science has not convinced you that our ancestors were not space aliens, I doubt Dakka will.
Reasons of varying levels of melanin in people developed in different environments is pretty well understood. (Hint: space aliens are not involved, sun and vitamin D are.)
EDIT: But thanks. This was certainly fresh and surprising development in a 40K racial diversity thread.
LOL, no, I mean the whole why did man give up his own hair for the fur of animals lol.
no, I mean the whole why did man give up his own hair for the fur of animals
to sweat more , this way he was able to run animals he chased to death . also fur was making it harder to cooldown the body and most important the brain part of humanoids.
The question "Does GW represent different Ethnicity well in their fuff? I think Not. They do some but most of the time they are still White and British. Necromundians are the same as Armaggeddonites, the same as Cadians.
I however do not think it's intentional. I think it's because from the beginning they had gamers that happened to be able to write. Not writers that happened to game. This is mainly the fluff you would find in the codexes and White Dwarf. Later on Black Library came around. Still they had only one from the beginning that was a writer before. Dan Abbnett who wrote comics for years. I think William King was also a writer but not positive of that. They have since then gained a few more.
Now writing is one thing but drawn art is another. As has pointed out they have had non-whites in their art. But only two as far as can be seen. I don't think they have even tried to show non-whites in the figures at all.
I did a search through GW official minis and found NO humans that were painted Non-white. Even the White Scars are white guys with top knots. They look more like Russian Cossacks than Huns or Mongols. Every marine without a helmet is Caucasian. I then looked at IG. Again all white, including the mutant Ogryns and Ratlings, are Caucasian. The Rough Riders again look like white guys with big hats. The Sisters of Battle had not a single Sista!
Now you would think the aliens wouldn't be white. Well again Eldar even Dark Eldar are Caucasian!
Now don't give me this "Because they are British" BS! Brits have many people of both African and Indian decent and they know it. Nor give me "They can be anything under their helmet" BS either. Because there are plenty of figs without helmets they could have painted non-white but didn't.
Basic Anthropology 101 1-Black People (and people native to more equatorial regions and have been present there for long periods of time) have darker skin basically as sunscreen. Melanin is useful for reducing damage done by UV light, but also interferes with the body's ability to make its own Vitamin D. Reduction in melanin capacity required 2-There are comparatively little genetic difference between humans, we breed slowly in small numbers in a manner which is dependent not on releasing as many young as possible into the environment as possible. 3-Related to two, humanity's ability to adapt to different is not genetic, but memetic. When the first homo sapiens migrated into areas where it snowed, they did not spend ten thousand generations evolving fur coats to deal with the drop in temperature. They found some deer, killed them, skinned them and figured out by steps how to make coats, telling their kids this so they did not have to learn this, building on ideas they encountered dealing with cool desert nights or ways to keep the rain off.
Now don't give me this "Because they are British" BS! Brits have many people of both African and Indian decent and they know it. Nor give me "They can be anything under their helmet" BS either. Because there are plenty of figs without helmets they could have painted non-white but didn't.
Most British people are white. And I mean, white-white
Crimson wrote: It is actually a bit bizarre how pretty much all models are painted with white skin. There's one Indian guy hiding in the collector section.
There are no darker skinned fellows in IG codex either. This is odd. I'm sure that at least Catachans used to be more diverse previously.
Yeah, I just took a look myself. I swear there used to be like 4 black guys in the Catachan box. Some of them are modeled as black guys.
Crimson wrote: It is actually a bit bizarre how pretty much all models are painted with white skin. There's one Indian guy hiding in the collector section.
There are no darker skinned fellows in IG codex either. This is odd. I'm sure that at least Catachans used to be more diverse previously.
Yeah, I just took a look myself. I swear there used to be like 4 black guys in the Catachan box. Some of them are modeled as black guys.
its not worth the time invested to learn techniques to paint other colored skins then whites . Dark colores , specialy pure black is probably the worse color to paint well .
Why would not not be worth your time to expand your abilities as an artist? That's like saying it's not worth painting trees because you live in the city.
Do you also find it "bizarre" that English people speak English?
No. Why is this relevant?
Because white people who paint people...will paint them white. It's not hard.
Not hard for professional painters to expand their palette a bit either when they're trying to advertise.
By making the models they use different to 99% of their target market? There's nothing more offputting than a rainbow-collage of people.
Why not have them holding hands and singing together too. In fact, why even battle with them? Why not have a tabletop game where all the different armies learn to coconcile their differences and live together in harmony?
I think what he's saying is that its odd to have units with different colored people.
Now the reasoning behind this is simple, IG units are raised from the same planet. So the people will likely be all the same. It wouldn't make any sense to have Black Valhallens or Vostroyens for example.
You could say your IG is raised from a world like Earth(variety of climates) or a Hive World with lots of people from different planets. Or your regiment could be a regiment cobled together from 2+ understrength regiments.
Space Marines could have some variation as they often recruit from multiple planets. Although Space Marine enhancements do allow them to alter their pigmentation to suit the environment, so a Marine could actually change skin shade over his lifetime.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: I paint my guardsmen in a variety of skin colours. I don't find it offputting. I like it.
+1 for this. Political correctness is down to the player. Hence why half of my Sisters of Battle are either black or Middle Eastern.
In official 40k background, though, I've seen some instances of non-Caucasian Imperials. The Tallarns are an obvious one, and I believe there was an Asian Inquisitor who helped the Ultramarines at one point in the Graham McNeill books. In one of the Ciaphas Cain books (I think Caves of Ice), there is also mention of a dark-skinned Valhlallan, and Inquisitor Vail's notes speculate that Valhalla is more ethnically diverse than people realize.
There's a big variety portrayed in the Imperial Army in 'Legion' if I remember right.
For example, I believe the Lord Commander was... Indian I think? A lot of his fancy Lord Commander trinkets were based off of Kali, such as a load of servo arm type gadgets carrying varying swords...
Grey Templar wrote: I think what he's saying is that its odd to have units with different colored people.
Now the reasoning behind this is simple, IG units are raised from the same planet. So the people will likely be all the same. It wouldn't make any sense to have Black Valhallens or Vostroyens for example.
Probably from Earth.
Obviously from the Moon.
Obviously from Mars.
Obviously from Venus.
What is this? Women don't exist, silly! They're only in fiction.
I know you mentioned Earth having different climates, but seriously. Catachan might be covered in jungle, but there's no way the climate is identical across its whole surface.
Do you also find it "bizarre" that English people speak English?
No. Why is this relevant?
Because white people who paint people...will paint them white. It's not hard.
Not hard for professional painters to expand their palette a bit either when they're trying to advertise.
By making the models they use different to 99% of their target market? There's nothing more offputting than a rainbow-collage of people.
Why not have them holding hands and singing together too. In fact, why even battle with them? Why not have a tabletop game where all the different armies learn to coconcile their differences and live together in harmony?
Lovehammer!
I don't see how having some models in an army, or just some shots of the army itself being different than the other hundreds of shots would be a bad thing. What happened to it just being a game so people can paint them how they want? Same answer to this you know.
Though I suppose it's only a problem when you'd rather they not change anything since you don't have any issues with it.
I don't know why you're getting all whiny about someone wanting to see some more colorful models, you're gettin' a lil too personal for this I think.
Compel wrote: There's a big variety portrayed in the Imperial Army in 'Legion' if I remember right.
For example, I believe the Lord Commander was... Indian I think? A lot of his fancy Lord Commander trinkets were based off of Kali, such as a load of servo arm type gadgets carrying varying swords...
That's awesome. This would be something awesome to see built and painted up, and I doubt it would be "off putting" to their main demographic who only want to see white people 24/7.
Omegus wrote: Well, for whatever its worth, the audience for GW products is overwhelmingly Caucasian.
Yeah, it is...
But the question that needs to be asked is "Why should it just be for a white audience?" and "Is the white dominance a self-fulfilling prophecy?" i.e, is it putting off ethnic minorities due to the fact the vast majority of fluff and models are white? I say absolutely 100% yes.
Of course, if you are middle class and white you probably don't care. Or you just don't see this and believe we are being 'paranoid.'. Fine, but we aren't. They said that during the civic rights movement in the southern US during the 60's. Look at the black panthers. "Yeah it's because there is sectarianism and apartheid". What, so that makes it okay? No, it really doesn't. Admitting a problem exists doesn't magically make it okay.
I think if GW made more effort to make the universe more ethnically diverse, the hobby would be infinitely more accessible for ethnic minorities. The only reason you wouldnt want this is if you have insecurities about black people (who you see as maybe "inferior" or "thugish") and are therefore racist. Sorry but it's true.
I fully expect to get a torrent of abuse for this opinion but honestly i dont care, I am pointing out something very few people want to confront....Just like the black panthers got horrific abuse in previous decades...
Look at the scout biker on attack bike with the dreadlocks.
Salamanders like Space Wolves have a gene seed deficency that can I repeat can alter there physique :
The whole black skin with red eyes is cool and I'm black. But I know for a fact that the picture of Tu'shan has been coloured in by a fat kid with spectacles. The official GW pic is in black and white.
Ethnicity is no big deal in 40k. Millions of planets based and themed on hundreds of civilisations.
Angron and his Gladiators whilst reminscent of Spartacus also remind me of the Maroons. The Jamaican slaves that killed there masters and fortified themselves in the mountains, repulsing countless british counter attacks despite lacking musket weaponry and gunpowder.
Both Cadian and Catachan Codex Cover artwork has shown multi ethnicities. And the Catachan are based HEAVILY on vietnam the so called white mans war fought by the black man against the yellow man.
The ratio of African Americans that fought and died in that conflict and the ratio of their reenlistment compared to so called white patriot americans speak for itself.
To have a credible catachan force based on the vietnam war you'd have to include black soldiers.
Look at Africa and all the countless conflicts that have and are taking place. Soldiers that have known war from the age of 8 in most cases.
And don't moan about the "rabble doesn't count" the African Union fields excellent, modern field units, weaponry and equipment. Look at the South African Special Forces Brigade or Recce and read about their statistics, they truly are one of the most ELITE special forces in the world today.
Just because they aren't on Call of Duty doesn't mean they don't exist you idiots.
Finally, the Thousand Sons are based on ancient Egypt. A civilisation that was ruled by the Nubian dynasties for several successive generations. The MEDJAY were the elite Nubian bodyguards that became a presitigious social class in Egyptian society in which countless caucasoid arabs tried join in order to attain the same social privileges.
Nubian archers were the finest marksmen in history. The Makurian Empire (today's Sudan) was never conquered yet the Turks, Egyptians and Europeans tried repeatedly. It was only with the BAKT (the first EVER recorded time a treaty or PACT was made) that the Egyptians managed to make a ceasefire with them.
Read up on King TAHARQA or King Merkurios.
This deeply offends me, pasty white kids believing they know everything about Africa after listening to one of their bigoted relatives over a sunday dinner or reading about some pompous european general during colonisation or the scramble for africa which was also a war fought by the ASKARI (african soldiers that fought for Europe and colonised Africa for Europe and personal gain.)
By playing the videogames, the SM's and the Imperial Guard all seem to have Caucasian British accents, which could be to due to the descendants of Brits being the dominant race in the future. This could be an explanation.
PS. Africa exports copious amounts of petrol , agriculture - You think coffee, bananas, mangos come from Scandinavia ?????
Maybe if white americans would stop being so racially biased, black americans would stop being so hostile.
Read about Fiji, a heavily militarised black country with racial tensions towards the ethnic Indian and Chinese minorities.
Minorities no matter where they are will always get the blame and to be honest. I live in England and have both white and black friends with whom we all party together regularly.
The only ethnicities that stick between themsevles and are TRULY RACIST are the Indians and Chinese. They make little or NO effort whatsoever to integrate.
And yet, the blacks take the blame as usual...
Screw You Guys.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or perhaps the game is aimed at a predominantly WHITE BRITISH / AMERICAN social group.
It's called MARKETING Tyriion, learn about business. If you own a company the first thing you do is ANALYSE THE MARKET YOU IDIOT.
You choose your potential clinets this process is called CUSTOMER PROFILING !
Crimson wrote: It is actually a bit bizarre how pretty much all models are painted with white skin. There's one Indian guy hiding in the collector section.
There are no darker skinned fellows in IG codex either. This is odd. I'm sure that at least Catachans used to be more diverse previously.
Yeah, I just took a look myself. I swear there used to be like 4 black guys in the Catachan box. Some of them are modeled as black guys.
I used to think that. I think the picture is black and white and the one of the characters just has the stereotypes of a black person, but is not black.
Orchid of Cthonia wrote: PS. Africa exports copious amounts of petrol , agriculture - You think coffee, bananas, mangos come from Scandinavia ?????
Maybe if white americans would stop being so racially biased, black americans would stop being so hostile.
Read about Fiji, a heavily militarised black country with racial tensions towards the ethnic Indian and Chinese minorities.
Minorities no matter where they are will always get the blame and to be honest. I live in England and have both white and black friends with whom we all party together regularly.
The only ethnicities that stick between themsevles and are TRULY RACIST are the Indians and Chinese. They make little or NO effort whatsoever to integrate.
And yet, the blacks take the blame as usual...
Screw You Guys.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or perhaps the game is aimed at a predominantly WHITE BRITISH / AMERICAN social group.
It's called MARKETING Tyriion, learn about business. If you own a company the first thing you do is ANALYSE THE MARKET YOU IDIOT.
You choose your potential clinets this process is called CUSTOMER PROFILING !
You are the most reverse-racist, biased, dumb jackass I have ever seen write a paragraph before
I don't think there is ethnic people in 40k cuz the imperium is kinda like a nazi germany or something like that with the hitler emperor so thus the people would have to be white, the ethnic units you see are generally fan made units are are not canon.
deadbolt wrote: I don't think there is ethnic people in 40k cuz the imperium is kinda like a nazi germany or something like that with the hitler emperor so thus the people would have to be white, the ethnic units you see are generally fan made units are are not canon.
Ok can we stop the pointless accusations of racism? They are all based on people trying to explain the paint patterns of an English company! Seriously people keep some perspective
deadbolt wrote: I don't think there is ethnic people in 40k cuz the imperium is kinda like a nazi germany or something like that with the hitler emperor so thus the people would have to be white, the ethnic units you see are generally fan made units are are not canon.
deadbolt wrote: I don't think there is ethnic people in 40k cuz the imperium is kinda like a nazi germany or something like that with the hitler emperor so thus the people would have to be white, the ethnic units you see are generally fan made units are are not canon.
2/10. Nice try but too obvious.
What do you mean?
Failtroll fails.
There are of course images that would delightfully illustrate the concept, but it's not worth the time.
Because if they had made the imperial guard black or Hispanic or something then people would accuse them of being racist by making the human shields of the Imperium black or Hispanic and space marines wear helmets all the time so that's pointless and as far as racial diversity goes you actually have feth loads - Humans, Orks, Tau, Vespid, Kroot, Tyranids, Eldar, Daemons, Necrons, C'tan, Squigs and they're just the races that have models representing them.
deadbolt wrote: I don't think there is ethnic people in 40k cuz the imperium is kinda like a nazi germany or something like that with the hitler emperor so thus the people would have to be white, the ethnic units you see are generally fan made units are are not canon.
2/10. Nice try but too obvious.
What do you mean?
Failtroll fails.
There are of course images that would delightfully illustrate the concept, but it's not worth the time.
so are you saying the Imperium is not an oppressive bigoted society?
. Seriously tho you can build your army however you want, its just that most people go for plain old vanilla humans. If you want choclate or strawberry or even rainbow sherbet then go for it!
