Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Not really. Nothing new has been created. We've just gotten rid of something.

If I take control of the world and eliminate everyone of a certain skin tone/some other trait, I havn't advanced the evolution of the species. I've just eliminated a portion of the genepool. Thats (un)natural selection.

As an afro-african male, i find the the matter of race and skin tone very irrelevant when we have TYRANIDS! eatting up everyone in the courtyard as a select few try to denoate the stash of nuclear weapons we have stashed in the vaults underground.

 DeffDred wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Biological evolution would be viewed as not being required from this point on.

Tell that to a Diabetic.

Hey!!! Leave chocolate out of this!!! Oh wait, the thread dictates you can't.

 DeffDred wrote:


Lol, first row:

Wesley Snipes (Simon says bleed!)
Blondie Dred from Bad Boys 2
The guy from Bill and Ted

Second row:

Michael Clarke Duncan (god rest his soul) w/bionic eye
Keegan-Michael Key
Lawrance Fishburne as Morphius

Third row:

Obama w/ cyborg eye
Obama
Obama w/ eye patch

Those are really nice sculpts. They should make more dred-heads. I would so make a marine army with all rasta-ish marines. None of the pot references, however.

I think the third guy on the 1st row is Dennis Rodman; he was also in a movie with cybermonks similar to the ad mech

 MightyGodzilla wrote:

 SaintTom wrote:
And there should be more diversity if you're going to take the world as an example with white people making up around 20.25% of the world's population.

Why? It's not GW's job to represent all existing races on current earth in their game. You've got a paintbrush, make you're own intrepretations.

I don't think I've complained about it, and yes, I do paint my miniatures with darker skin. It's not hard.

If you read what I was quoting then maybe you'd know what I was talking about.

 Trench-Raider wrote:

But really it's highly likely that "the lack of ethnic diversity" is simply down to the fact that the 40k universe was created by white middle/upper-class British male people back in the 80's. And without a shadow of a doubt, it's main customer base is very specific: White middle-class males. So why would they ever bother with making an effort to make a more ethnically diverse universe?

This is certainly true. The same could be said of the wargaming hobby as a whole. The wargaming hobby is very "White" *. use blacks in the US as an example. Their percentage of the US population hovers around 12-13%. I've been all over the country to various conventions and visited store and other places were the local gamers gather. I've never seen any gaming community anywere were the percentage of black gamers comes anywere close to the overall population percentage. My first hand knowledge is based upon the US only, but I understand the gaming demographic in the UK is very similar. Other non-White races such as Asians for example,(and here in the US Hispanics/Mestizos) is higher than blacks, but still not very close to their overall representation in the population. The lack of "diversity" in 40k, it's fluff, and the way most people 9especially the studio artiss) paint their figures is simply a representation of the hobby and thus the target audience. This is not a value judgement on my part. Just a statement based upon my own observations.

TR
*-Other hobbies are similarly very much a White thing too. I've done WW2 reenacting one and off since the late '80s and I can count the number of Black reenactors I've met on one hand. Once again other non-Whites are more common, but still a rare sight.

Pretty much the point I was trying to get across, except you elaborated the point much more thoroughly.

Out of interest, why do you think the percentage of black people involved in 40k is much lower than the actual population? I think it could be because black people in the US are only about 12% of the population and about 47% percent of blacks are middle class (depending on definition) and thus black people make about 5% of the middle class population. So, if we assume that the vast majority of 40k players/collectors have at least middle-class income, we could say only 40% MIGHT (just might) have an interest in 40k, with the other 60% having too low an income to have much chance of becoming interest.
Of course, that 5% is just black people that MIGHT be interested. I bet only a tiny minority of that 5% would actually start collecting 40k, as only a tiny minority of white people become involved in 40k (well, more than in the 90's, but still a small minority nonetheless).
So actually, when you break it down, you are probably looking at some minuscule number of black people - due to socio-economic reasons explained above (income levels and disparities between ethnic groups) - who actually play 40k. Couple this with cultural factors and differences between ethnic groups and the figure is probably as low as something like 0.2%.

So in conclusion, the lack of black people in 40k is just a reflection of trends within society, albeit inequalities that are still prominent in western society. But it's in no way intentional by GW or remotely racist.

*Note, it's worth mentioning that the assumption that everyone who plays 40k has a middle-class income or higher is less plausible these days with the advent of ebay buying-selling models on the cheap. Indeed, by definition I am not even on a middle-class income, yet I still collect 40k. So I accept that the above argument isn't set in concrete.

For those that keep saying Tallarn are Arab or anything like it. In the Tallarn BL novel they go out of their way to say they are Blond haired and white skin! They don't even let the reader imagine what race he is.

 SaintTom wrote:

 MightyGodzilla wrote:

 SaintTom wrote:
And there should be more diversity if you're going to take the world as an example with white people making up around 20.25% of the world's population.

Why? It's not GW's job to represent all existing races on current earth in their game. You've got a paintbrush, make you're own intrepretations.

I don't think I've complained about it, and yes, I do paint my miniatures with darker skin. It's not hard.

If you read what I was quoting then maybe you'd know what I was talking about.

I did read what you were quoting, but if you want to break it down to me just to make sure we're talking apples and apples then please do so. I'll check it out after lunch. My point was that our brushes transcend all perceived racial slights here in the grimdark.

 CDK wrote:
For those that keep saying Tallarn are Arab or anything like it. In the Tallarn BL novel they go out of their way to say they are Blond haired and white skin! They don't even let the reader imagine what race he is.

Lawrance of Arabia was the inspiration for that army. Infact all the IG armies were based on British armies*.

You don't see Blue vs Grey guardsmen. Nor Cowboy guardsmen. Or Zulu guardsmen, ect.

*Except The Americans in Viet... I mean Catachans.

 MightyGodzilla wrote:

 SaintTom wrote:

 MightyGodzilla wrote:

 SaintTom wrote:
And there should be more diversity if you're going to take the world as an example with white people making up around 20.25% of the world's population.

Why? It's not GW's job to represent all existing races on current earth in their game. You've got a paintbrush, make you're own intrepretations.

I don't think I've complained about it, and yes, I do paint my miniatures with darker skin. It's not hard.

If you read what I was quoting then maybe you'd know what I was talking about.

I did read what you were quoting, but if you want to break it down to me just to make sure we're talking apples and apples then please do so. I'll check it out after lunch. My point was that our brushes transcend all perceived racial slights here in the grimdark.

I know, and I was replying earlier to the fact that DeffDread was saying that there would be such a balance as we see because of evolution or something, but if you want to look at it through evolution, then there should be more diversity, not less.

In Black Library Fluff, there is plenty of diversity and Asians, Blacks, Hispanics, etc are regularly encountered.

On the tabletop it's just an issue of laziness on GW's part and wanting models to look the same.

Which would be interperted as mental evolution. Biological evolution would be viewed as not being required from this point on. Our bodies are more or less perfect for our current environement(Earth)

that is not how gentics works . it takes around 40k for a new blood line to emarge . some mutation takes less time .lactosis toleration took less then 2k years , for example. technicly one could create a new race of human much faster [all forms of mixed races] by selectiv breeding , that takes under 100-150 years , the control over the process is a problem though . plus there is the problem of changing enviroment . the way how enviroment damages the gene pool right now the chance of a succesful mass mutation is higher . A world wide disease or some sort of natural disaster would help too , but again hard to achive , because people are to mobile right now.

Imperium of Man is a direct ripoff of Thermight Empire from 2000AD Nemesis the Warlock but GW twisted it to differentiate so the facist and xenophobic evil empire from the comic books is now facist and xenophobic evil empire that is still the most noble faction around. Black people among the ranks of Space Marines would spoil the impression of intolerance and xenophoby. No reason to spoil it now, imo.

Also if you go with medieval conotation, not really a lot of black knights there and again that would spoil the impression for me. Make me a game of sf tribal wars and I'm the first to make an army of Maasai, they're great and all but leave 40k as it is, silly and over the top facist affair. There was diversity mentioned somewhere, almost every other major sf around does that, a future multicultural society so why not have one which doesn't? I am against GW doing any moves in that direction.

Not sure why this is such a delicate matter, it's a game ffs and a fiction of blasting 100 light years wide bases with black holes. Thankfuly it's UK based so the madness of political corectness is not on the level of USA yet, I guess. Selective political corectness of the latter I should say as Obama saying phrases like "polish death camps in WWII" doesn't seem to give him much trouble.

 Kit temple wrote:
As an afro-african male, i find the the matter of race and skin tone very irrelevant when we have TYRANIDS! eatting up everyone in the courtyard as a select few try to denoate the stash of nuclear weapons we have stashed in the vaults underground.

Thanks for the voice of reason. I enjoy playing Medieval Total War playing as Egyptians despite not being one, so obvious.

Actually the Imperium, and much of 40k, is ripped directly from Dune.

Fifteen hours, there's a hole in your theory. The other 60 percent aren't necessarily below middle class

 Grey Templar wrote:
Actually the Imperium, and much of 40k, is ripped directly from Dune.

No it's a ripoff of the ripoffs. GW never went that far just took Thermight Empire, Rogue trooper, ABC Warriors and Judge Dredd, twisted a bit and then added a few grimdarked Hollywood cool ideas, only some details come from books like navigators from Dune or Nurgle straight from Moorcock. Every piece of Space Marine armor for example is somewhere on the pages of 2000AD comic books just not in one place, also there's that picture where chapters of Thermight Empire (with space berserkers among them heh) holding banners go to the crusade to purge the aliens.

How the maps are painted, the ornaments on pages, skulls, the Imperium one liners, flying cathedrals and many more things come straight from 2000AD. Some things in 40k appeared in great works of sf before but it's only because they were already popularised by comic books or pulp fantasy/ sf. In my opinion, people who go to Bible/ Heinlein/ Dune/ Foundation/ etc as sources for 40k go too far, only place where GW did a real research was names.

You can't blame Games Workshop. Their game is based on classic Tolkien fantasy.

40k is just Tolkien in space.

Tolkien was a racist. Maybe not intentionally, but his book reads like a white supremacy handguide.

I don't blame them, I love the final effect. That it's a quick shameless ripoff is just a fact but one that is irrelevant for me. Btw fun fact Moorcock calls GW "greatest ripoffs of all time".

Plumbumbarum wrote:
I don't blame them, I love the final effect. That it's a quick shameless ripoff is just a fact but one that is irrelevant for me. Btw fun fact Moorcock calls GW "greatest ripoffs of all time".

Actually world of warcraft is the greatest ripoff of all time. To think, games workshop cold shouldered them way back when. Look how that turned out!

Yep, Moorcock was probably just a bit angry over GW trademarking eight pointed star as a symbol of Chaos

 Sandpriest1 wrote:
Fifteen hours, there's a hole in your theory. The other 60 percent aren't necessarily below middle class

Yes this is true, but upper class only represent a tiny percentage (of any ethnic group), so it doesn't really affect the theory all that much at all.

Kevlar wrote:
You can't blame Games Workshop. Their game is based on classic Tolkien fantasy.

40k is just Tolkien in space.

Tolkien was a racist. Maybe not intentionally, but his book reads like a white supremacy handguide.

What???

What ever gives you that impression?

Out of interest, why do you think the percentage of black people involved in 40k is much lower than the actual population?

Economic factors might very well play some part in it as you theorize.( Ie the higher percentage of blacks under the poverty line and all that). But on the other hand low income people routinely spend money they can ill afford on items they do not need. Using blacks as an example yet again, many poor black kids will quite readilly shell out 200$+ for a pair of name brand tennis shoes. A drive through poor areas will allow one to see a suprisingly high number of houses with satelite dishes on the roof and car with flashy/expensive accessories parked out front. Likewise, here in the US Hispanics/Mestizos have a similarly high instance of poverty as do Blacks, (although the black numbers are higher), yet they are much more commony represented in the gaming community. So the expense of gaming in general and GW product in particular is probably not as big a factor as might apear at the casual glance.

I suspect cultural differences may play as much a role as any in the phenomenon. There probably just is not that much of an interest in the black community in hobbies like table top gaming, reeanacting, and other such activities they have a low representation in. In fact in some cases there might even be a cultural hostility to such activities. I could certainly see a poor black kid getting hassled by his peers if he were to express an interest in gaming as "acting White". You see that in other activities.

Finally, the existing lack of racial minorities in gaming is probably kind of a self-fufilling thing. Like I point out above, we are tribal creatures and tend to socialize with and seek out the company of those like us. Thus the lak of blacks in the gaming hobby means there is less of an incentive for them to get involved.

In the end, although it's an interesting discusion, it really does not matter one way or another. The almost mono-racial nature of gaming and other niche hobbies is not a bad thing, nor is it a good thing. it's just a demographic reality. It is what it is, as they say. But I'm sure there are some folks out there who do alot of hand wringing and loose sleep over the fact that gaming is not very "diverse".

TR


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tolkien was a racist. Maybe not intentionally, but his book reads like a white supremacy handguide.

Wow.
That's pretty harsh and hyperbolic. Tolkien was (like pretty much everyone in his age) very ethno-centric in his views and his writing reflects it. But to say he was a "racist" (whatever that over-used, marixist construct of a word means anyway) and that his books reflect "white supremacy" is a tad silly. But if you go LOOKING to be offended at something, you can generally find it anywere.
Now you want to find a writer with "racist" (once again, wahtever that term means) views that creap into his writing, go read some R. E. Howard.*

TR

*-Not that this spoils his work in any way. Howard was an excellent author who's writing stand up even today.

 Grey Templar wrote:

What ever gives you that impression?

It's just one of those things that started off as a troll post in the dawn of the internet that somehow mutated into a 'known truth.'

While the Lord of The Rings is a product of its time in some ways, this wasn't one of them.

 Compel wrote:
While the Lord of The Rings is a product of its time in some ways, this wasn't one of them.

I'm a huge Tolkien nerd, but there are reams of latent racism apparent in his work.

Not overt racism, just the 'product of the times' racism. All the bad guys are swarthy, dark skinned with squinty or slanted eyes, all the races of men who follow Sauron are dark skinned, etc. Not to say that Tolkien spent lots of time thinking about how best to describe the 'evil' humans and decided that since dark skinned humans were naturally evil, that they should take that role in his work. I think that's reading far too much into it.

It's the natural progression of his work, with euro-centric heroes, the anglo-based portions of the world (Gondor, The Shire, Rohan, etc) being the good guys and the other portions of the world being the bad guys pretty much by default because that's the way that made the most sense to him as an author, because of the latent racism prevalent in that period of time. It wasn't an overtly racist (or otherwise) decision he made, IMO, but was definitely a product of the times.

I give my catachan different skin tones, one sniper unit has a pale vampire tone, then it increases to a south beach bronze tan (Miami, Florida for non Yanks). If I feel lazy i give them all an ambiguous light brown/dark beige tone.

I think that it is a sign of how much the OP notices race for this thread to even exist. Most of us civilized folk don't even notice skin color anymore, unless you are racist. It's like that one South Park episode where Chef wants to change the flag. Watch that sometime, it's a good one.

Most of us civilized folk don't even notice skin color anymore, unless you are racist

what does those that suppose to mean ? that if someone/group sees the difference then it isnt civilised? do you know that the US or generaly the west are rather special in their mix people living side by side . you think that someone who is a not a white blond would not get noticed on island or a white person anywhere in asia . being unable to notice the difference between people based on their background is not a mark of being civilised. Never was and never will be . I mean whole idea of a civilisation is based on opposition to those different dudes.

Most of us civilized folk don't even notice skin color anymore, unless you are racist

That's awful presumptuous of you....and most likely incorrect as well. Truely "color blind" people are so rare as to be almost non-existant. If they even really exist at all. It's been my experience that many of those who claim to be "colorblind" are actually the people the most consious of race.

You don't have to be a "racist" (whatever that over-used slur means anyway) to notice race. (something that goes beyond simple skin color btw...skin color is but the most noticable of a number of differences between large gorups of humans). Your race is as much a part of who you are as is your gender, height, weight, hair color, etc.

TR

Civilized is just the wrong word. Urbanized maybe? The point tho seems to be that the more exposed you are to other people the less you see them as "other" people.