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I'm talking about 40,000 years of humans breeding with humans. Eventually there wouldn't be minorities. All races will cross-breed with one another eventually.
Then disasters like nuclear war, the civil wars of ancient Terra (our future, 40ks past), the wars of unification. All these things would thin the herd of a race that is already losing it's unique racial traits.
In a few hundred years Earth is going to be covered in a race of humans that will look like a cross between asians and mexicans. There's a great NatGeo on it.
Basically I guess I'm saying that it doesn't make sense that there are white people in 40k. There souldn't be any blonde or red hair. There shouldn't be any green or blue eyes.
There should only be brown skinned, brown haired, brown eyed (hehehe) humans that far into the future, even before galactic colonization.
I would assume that some worlds would begin to force certain human groups to re-evolve some of the older traits but possibly for different reasons than would happen on earth.
A race of humans that were forced to live underground (Horus and his homeworld) would probably begin to evolve back into subterrainian traits (better night vision, shorter stature, pale skin.
The races of Terra wouldn't have the gene-diversity to form a world entirely of the mongolians (The Khan) for example.
The history of 40k claims that at one point Earth was united and had spread through the stars as a single race who allied with alien races.
A global unity for hundreds of years would slowly errode the differences between mankind and result in a more singular form of human.
Of course there is nothing to say that random traits could spring up from time to time.
There. How's that Angrysquig? Can you calm down now?
Thanks for the contribution DeffDread! Best I've seen out of you yet!
I'm talking about 40,000 years of humans breeding with humans. Eventually there wouldn't be minorities. All races will cross-breed with one another eventually.
Then disasters like nuclear war, the civil wars of ancient Terra (our future, 40ks past), the wars of unification. All these things would thin the herd of a race that is already losing it's unique racial traits.
In a few hundred years Earth is going to be covered in a race of humans that will look like a cross between asians and mexicans. There's a great NatGeo on it.
Basically I guess I'm saying that it doesn't make sense that there are white people in 40k. There souldn't be any blonde or red hair. There shouldn't be any green or blue eyes.
There should only be brown skinned, brown haired, brown eyed (hehehe) humans that far into the future, even before galactic colonization.
I would assume that some worlds would begin to force certain human groups to re-evolve some of the older traits but possibly for different reasons than would happen on earth.
A race of humans that were forced to live underground (Horus and his homeworld) would probably begin to evolve back into subterrainian traits (better night vision, shorter stature, pale skin.
The races of Terra wouldn't have the gene-diversity to form a world entirely of the mongolians (The Khan) for example.
The history of 40k claims that at one point Earth was united and had spread through the stars as a single race who allied with alien races.
A global unity for hundreds of years would slowly errode the differences between mankind and result in a more singular form of human.
Of course there is nothing to say that random traits could spring up from time to time.
There. How's that Angrysquig? Can you calm down now?
Thanks for the contribution DeffDread! Best I've seen out of you yet!
You haven't been looking at my gallery have you? That's my best contribution.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Alarios needs to get in here with his IG.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I mean, in the end it's the OP who is getting worked up about skin color here...
*Sigh* Please show some respect by reading the thread before replying, as I am sick of having to needlessly defend myself to the point now I can't be be bothered with this thread anymore:
I never said GW were racist nor did I mean to insinuate anything by this. Sorry if I gave that impression
we have said numerous times now that this was never about any accusation of racism. It was a perfectly reasonable question, certainly more reasonable than discussing my little pony space marines...I was just curious.
Oh my, thank you Kroothawk! You've officially just gotten Dragon Forge another customer. I hope they keep sculpting conversion heads, as I'd love to have other racial groups in that style. (Even Caucasian, I mean we can only use that one angry Cadian head so many times...)
While I'm posting, I thought I might say a few things that I don't recall getting said in one of these threads before:
First, I think it's fair to conclude that GW only seems to include racial representation for what ever setting or genre they're borrowing from. Hence, as mentioned, the Arab looking army is Arab, the Mongol looking army is Mongolian, the Stalin era Russia army is white, and the Guys From Predator look like the guys from Predator. (when they're not looking like Rambo, anyway...)
But, what about appearance traits that appear again and again in 40k? Say, the gauntness we see on so many Imperial commanders, to the extent that the most famous commissar character is literally named Gaunt? I recently took an art course that dealt with the Romanesque and Gothic period of the Catholic church, an entity which provides 40k with much of it's inspiration, and found the same style. It seems Catholic art of that era stretches the figure, making humans skinny and gaunt, dehumanizing them and providing an other-worldly quality that stood in contrast to the Greek influence which exaggerated human physical perfection. As such, I think this look is as much a part of the mood of 40k as all of the Gothic architecture, and due to the European nature of the Catholic church in those days, characters meant to evoke the Gothic period tend to be white.
That said, I'd still enjoy seeing greater variety, in particular of the style seen in Colonel Schaffer's Last Chancers. In that box we find both multi-racial and multi-gender figures serving together, implying this must occur in the Imperial Guard at large. I know in the Imperium of my imagination, they don't especially care who they slap the helmet on and hand a lasgun. All that is important is that they march forward, remain loyal, and hit their targets roughly 50% of the time.
Sure 40 thousandish years of mix and match may have evened everyone out a bit but there are still going to be examples of planets that the now native population have adapted to the area. If anything there should be More flavors of human than less. Whos to say that theres not a planet out there where people have developed an entirely different shade of skin to protect them from a star whos output is completely different than sol? Or as previously stated have adapted in other ways... Oh wait they have ratlings and ogryn and demiurg...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/26 00:53:12
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.
The actual human population of Nocturne has light skin.
That's stated flat out somehwere?
Nightlords novels. Blonde hair is seen as extremely rare on Nocturn too.
What book was that?
You sure you aren't thinking of the cave dwellers that live on nocturne?
It honestly makes no sense to me that while the radiation of the sun would turn the Salamander's skin coal black with their gene seed mishap, that it would just leave the people who live on the surface of Nocturne as white.
And yes this topic is going to continue to come up because people actually notice it.
Spiney Norman wrote:
I would also like to thank all those crazy gamers with too much money to spend that buy hundreds of the same marine models, paint them different colours and pretend they are different armies. You are the heroes upon whose backs the future of GW sales is assured.
The OP raises a valid point. Other people have clearly noticed it too, so this topic isn't going to go away anytime soon.
Does it matter? It depends really on who you think 40K should be appealing too, and if you think the lack of ethnic diversity as well as the lack of female representation (though this is less prevalent with SoB, Wyches etc representing females in the universe) is not discouraging players from other ethnic groups in getting into the game.
But really it's highly likely that "the lack of ethnic diversity" is simply down to the fact that the 40k universe was created by white middle/upper-class British male people back in the 80's. And without a shadow of a doubt, it's main customer base is very specific: White middle-class males. So why would they ever bother with making an effort to make a more ethnically diverse universe?
Honestly, knowing GW, if they thought they were losing customers (and therefore money) because of the lack of 'ethnic' models and fluff, they would've rectified it a long time. ago. So chances are it doesn't discourage non-white ethnicities at all from the game. I mean, look at how popular 40k has become in Asian countries like Japan. It obviously hasn't put them off.
GW isn't racist (corporations don't generally care about race or sexual orientation, unless they are also certain Republican candidates in the US) and the prevalence of white characters and models over other ethnicities is simply down to the fact it is based in Europe with a fan base that is overwhelmingly white middle/upper class.
Would I like to see more ethnically diverse models and characters though? Yeah it would be cool. Why not? Diversity brings more depth to an already fascinating and rich 40k universe. I liked the black librarian in Dawn of War, and I think the 'Sergeant Apone' from Aliens idea for an IG character is good.
And on a similar note, female IG conversion packs would be very welcome by me and most other people I think. The female IG officer in space marine was very cool.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/26 12:23:22
Thousand Sons CSM and Tzeentch Daemons : 2000pts
Imperial Guard Mixed Regiment: 2500pts
Deathwing/Ravenwing 2000pts (WIP)
Space Wolves: 1000pts (WIP)
After so many years of race mingling, all of humanity is a nice shade of pretty light brown.
People say this a lot, but I've never bought it. Humans are by nature tribal creatures. We tend to seek out people like us as mates and by in large self-segregate unless forced together. (please, no flood of "But I've got an Asian girlfriend" or "I've got lots of black friends" personal aneccdotes here. I'm talking about the general rule rather than the exceptions) Human bio-diversity is probably not going anywere in the future. The percentages may change here and there as birth rates rise and fall. (such as we are seeing in the West in recent decades) But I doubt distinct racial groups of humanity are going anywere.
But really it's highly likely that "the lack of ethnic diversity" is simply down to the fact that the 40k universe was created by white middle/upper-class British male people back in the 80's. And without a shadow of a doubt, it's main customer base is very specific: White middle-class males. So why would they ever bother with making an effort to make a more ethnically diverse universe?
This is certainly true. The same could be said of the wargaming hobby as a whole. The wargaming hobby is very "White" *. use blacks in the US as an example. Their percentage of the US population hovers around 12-13%. I've been all over the country to various conventions and visited store and other places were the local gamers gather. I've never seen any gaming community anywere were the percentage of black gamers comes anywere close to the overall population percentage. My first hand knowledge is based upon the US only, but I understand the gaming demographic in the UK is very similar. Other non-White races such as Asians for example,(and here in the US Hispanics/Mestizos) is higher than blacks, but still not very close to their overall representation in the population. The lack of "diversity" in 40k, it's fluff, and the way most people 9especially the studio artiss) paint their figures is simply a representation of the hobby and thus the target audience. This is not a value judgement on my part. Just a statement based upon my own observations.
TR
*-Other hobbies are similarly very much a White thing too. I've done WW2 reenacting one and off since the late '80s and I can count the number of Black reenactors I've met on one hand. Once again other non-Whites are more common, but still a rare sight.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/26 16:35:00
Former Kommandant, KZ Dakka
"I was Oldhammer before Oldhammer was cool!"
Who is "us" in 40k? A different coloured person from your planet and culture (feral, industrial, ...) or a same coloured person from another planet and culture? And who is "us" when both planets are attacked by Orks?
And who is "us" when both planets are attacked by Orks?
the history teaches us that in the case of a total anihiliation of your own civilisation/race group , you see "yours" or "ours" as your closest kin or tribe. Natural thing . First thing humans would try to do durning any invasion would be to make gain money/power on top of the backs of other humans. It is a natural way to act.
And who is "us" when both planets are attacked by Orks?
the history teaches us that in the case of a total anihiliation of your own civilisation/race group , you see "yours" or "ours" as your closest kin or tribe. Natural thing . First thing humans would try to do durning any invasion would be to make gain money/power on top of the backs of other humans. It is a natural way to act.
Agreed.
See my comment above about the nature of humanity being tribal.
On another note, almost every time one of these "why is 40k so White?" threads pops up at least one or two people make the comment that non-White skin tones are harder to paint. This has actually not been my experience. Taking a quick inventory in the game room I can quickly see the following:
-Almost 200 28mm Rhodesian Bush War figures of which only about a quarter are White. (the rest are terrorists, Mozmbique regular army, or black Rhodesian troops)
-About a company each of three factions for the South African Border War in 15mm
-28mm armies for The 1884 Sudan Campaign and the 1879 Zulu War.
-A Simba force for the "Simba Revolt" stage of the First Congo War, once again in 28mm
So I've had a good bit of experiece in painting dark skin tones and I actually find painting Black/Negro flesh tones easier and quicker than painting Whites/Caucasians. (one of the reasons it goes faster is that I can skip the deepest shading step due to the dark color) so the "it's eiser to paint them White" is not really that unversal a statement.
TR
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/26 16:24:49
Former Kommandant, KZ Dakka
"I was Oldhammer before Oldhammer was cool!"
You sure you aren't thinking of the cave dwellers that live on nocturne?
It honestly makes no sense to me that while the radiation of the sun would turn the Salamander's skin coal black with their gene seed mishap, that it would just leave the people who live on the surface of Nocturne as white.
And yes this topic is going to continue to come up because people actually notice it.
Cave Dwellers? Nocturn is a planet without sunlight. The people there all have black hair and black eyes. Their skin is near translucent. They're troglodytes.
In all of the Nightlords books I'm pretty sure it mentions those key factors. There is also an explanation for blonde hair in... I think the second book. They basically say that any blonde hair on Nocturn was an albino.
The salamanders are black because of their geneseed. The Nightlords are pale/white because of their environment.
I still don't believe that their would be much racial diversity this far into the future. It's not enough time for man to evolve into a wider range of genetic variance.
Besides... Humans stop evolving when we invented agriculture.
Besides... Humans stop evolving when we invented agriculture.
That's... not exactly true. Evolution is a way a species deals with selective pressures. As humanity developed, we developed our own ways to deal with selective pressures, eg medicine, which meant more people survived to childbearing age, which meant their genes continued.
However, that doesn't mean that humanity stopped evolving as there would have still been many genetic diseases that would still have killed people before they could pass their genes on. An interesting read is about how Sickle Cell Anaemia is very common still in Africa, because it actually provides a selective advantage against malaria.
Besides... Humans stop evolving when we invented agriculture.
That's... not exactly true. Evolution is a way a species deals with selective pressures. As humanity developed, we developed our own ways to deal with selective pressures, eg medicine, which meant more people survived to childbearing age, which meant their genes continued.
However, that doesn't mean that humanity stopped evolving as there would have still been many genetic diseases that would still have killed people before they could pass their genes on. An interesting read is about how Sickle Cell Anaemia is very common still in Africa, because it actually provides a selective advantage against malaria.
Should I copy paste my previous comment from last week? The week before?
Perhaps I should just put a link to one of the countless threads on the exact same subject.
Maybe a Mod could just lock this before it becomes a stupid argument about race or something.
Better yet, maybe people should use the search function so we can stop seeing the same crap pop up every 7 to 14 days...
Maybe an even better option would be to not post!
Edit: Aww, now I feel bad. It looks like you actually contributed later.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CuddlySquig wrote: In my head I have sometimes entertained the idea that the Imperium is as racist as it is xenophobic. Perhaps sometime in their ancient past they considered everyone who wasn't white to be a mutant and they were accordingly persecuted (but here and there, some were tolerated). Obviously the Imperium has a standing criteria of what it considers properly human. Does skin colour factor in there too? I know GW would never elaborate on such a theory, but given how the Imperium thinks, it does seem to be an idea.
This is a great theory.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/26 17:12:24
In this thread someone used the term "Vanilla Humans" to which I will lol eternal.
In this thread Kroothawk linked us the dragonforge.com black celebrity heads to which I am grateful, because if GW is at fault for anything it's making the same head over and over again with slight variations.
In this thread many posters with more fluff knowledge than the OP mentioned that many factions do have origins that are outside of the "traditional white" sterotype that the OP was concerned about. Also painters paint what they like, and you are always free to paint what you want.
My 12th company of the Dark Angels is an all dark skinned company for as long as I've been painting. I really out to get a camera besides my phone, because they're badass and need to be represented. Now it's off to Dragonforge.com thanks Kroot!
Cave Dwellers? Nocturn is a planet without sunlight. The people there all have black hair and black eyes. Their skin is near translucent. They're troglodytes.
In all of the Nightlords books I'm pretty sure it mentions those key factors. There is also an explanation for blonde hair in... I think the second book. They basically say that any blonde hair on Nocturn was an albino.
The salamanders are black because of their geneseed. The Nightlords are pale/white because of their environment.
I still don't believe that their would be much racial diversity this far into the future. It's not enough time for man to evolve into a wider range of genetic variance.
Besides... Humans stop evolving when we invented agriculture.
The Night Lord homeworld is Nostramo. Salamanders is Nocturne.
And there should be more diversity if you're going to take the world as an example with white people making up around 20.25% of the world's population.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/26 17:50:56
Spiney Norman wrote:
I would also like to thank all those crazy gamers with too much money to spend that buy hundreds of the same marine models, paint them different colours and pretend they are different armies. You are the heroes upon whose backs the future of GW sales is assured.
SaintTom wrote: And there should be more diversity if you're going to take the world as an example with white people making up around 20.25% of the world's population.
Why? It's not GW's job to represent all existing races on current earth in their game. You've got a paintbrush, make you're own intrepretations.
Besides... Humans stop evolving when we invented agriculture.
That's... not exactly true. Evolution is a way a species deals with selective pressures. As humanity developed, we developed our own ways to deal with selective pressures, eg medicine, which meant more people survived to childbearing age, which meant their genes continued.
However, that doesn't mean that humanity stopped evolving as there would have still been many genetic diseases that would still have killed people before they could pass their genes on. An interesting read is about how Sickle Cell Anaemia is very common still in Africa, because it actually provides a selective advantage against malaria.
Humanity hasn't developed. Our technology has.
Which would be interperted as mental evolution. Biological evolution would be viewed as not being required from this point on. Our bodies are more or less perfect for our current environement(Earth)
It would take massive climate pressures for even a minor change to our current body plan. I'm not talking climate change of anything like that. Temperatures would need to significantly increase or decrease on average for any change to occur.
The thing that could possably result in further biological evolution would be us moving to other planets with different gravitational pulls. That would force a change in bone and muscle structure.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Not sure what, if any, effect that can have. Are we just going to weed out the people that have this condition out of the genepool.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
in cadian blood there's a black commissar and in one of the ciaphas cain novel there's an entire regiment of black guardsmen. there are your not looking hard enough
Grey Templar wrote: Not sure what, if any, effect that can have. Are we just going to weed out the people that have this condition out of the genepool.
Thousand Sons CSM and Tzeentch Daemons : 2000pts
Imperial Guard Mixed Regiment: 2500pts
Deathwing/Ravenwing 2000pts (WIP)
Space Wolves: 1000pts (WIP)
THE FUN HAS BEEN DOUBLED!!!