In a equal fight or one on one dual who is the best?
I am writing a story involving both races and I would like to get a sence of peoples opinion, maybe someone could list the pros and con of each it would be much thanked.
That said, there are only about a million Space Marines total, and countless billions of orks
It really depends on which author you want to use as a reference. Some of the BL books/codex stories are serious SM fanspank, while others are a bit more gritty.
I am writing a story involving both races and I would like to get a sence of peoples opinion, maybe someone could list the pros and con of each it would be much thanked.
Ya know i think posts like this are starting to become a conspiracy of chaos to pit all sides against one another until they are the most unified force in the galaxy...
In all seriousness, asking who is better is going to to make every nerd for both factions rage. Suffice to say they both can cause untold damage. I want to personally say orks operate on a much larger scale than marines can normally handle so you have the idea of the brute and the hero story concept both equal in different ways but the hero's advantage is not to waste his time proving he's equal to the brute which one go down without it being a tooth pull ordeal.
Personally I'm going by fluff marines and orks not game-wise myself.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It depends, one of the best moments of a deathwatch game on the site in my sig was our squad of about 10 astartes holding out against a waaag all night and defending a hive city, we racked up a kill count into the thousands...
Space Marines fluff wise are better than the average boy, its when the Big 'Uns get involved and such that things start getting interesting but one on one Marines.
I am writing my own story (the panthers claws in dakka fiction) and don't want it to be all marines win again as this is fluff for my d.i.y. chapter and their are only 3 companies (at the moment) then again I don't want it to be another chapter on the brink because.... In the story I am going to try to be equal to both races and show off their strengths so both sets of factions can enjoy it
Everything I see is having marines as exceptional at range, but orks as exceptionally dangerous in close quarters.
For balance in your story I'd have close combat as a desperate affair against orks even, but brutal, while the marines excel at whittling down numbers at range.
Id do ork kommando vs a regular space marine. In fluff the kommando's train to be the best and seem to be the shock troops of the orks. I think they would be the best match up since they have some skill at combat mixed in with an orks raw strenghth!
Yes willham I like them to and later on the kammando's will be showing of their skills so don't worry illuknisaa the plot armour on these ummies iz very fin.
From what I can tell from BL books, the orks win if there's enough of them to overwhelm the marines. Otherwise, marines win. But marines can ill afford losses. Plus, a single ork of special status can stand up to a marine. A full warboss can chew up marines like there was nothing to it.
Aw. but who karez? In da end, any good scrap dem marine boyz 'ave wif da orkz iz a net viktury fer us, kuz one dead marine weakenz da lot of em. Dead orks 'appen all da time and dere's alwayz more.
Orks are widely known to be monumentally poor tacticians, as all they care about is fighting, and any marine worth his salt knows this and uses it to his advantage.
Orks are always portrayed as a horde army, rushing up at foes (usually astartes) to get butchered messily until the ones who can climb over the corpses manage to swamp down the marines. I've heard of dozens of instances of five or four, heck, even one or two marines wiping out entire companies of orks.
Space Marines are generally accepted as 'the best' foot soldiers in the galaxy at large in a kill-to killed ratio. that said, there are only about a million of them in existence.
So what about Mek boyz, how do they stack up against a space marine? now I know they're not really front line fodder but say the ummies had some how got into the camp and they came across a Mek boy how would that play out?
One of the tough things about that question (and the prior one) is that it's hard to talk about a normal Ork Boy or Big Mek.
Big Mek Ratchethead may be a weedy little git mostly useful to the boss for his knowledge of making stompas, while Big Mek Geargrinda may be all about fine tuning his powerklaw to better krump them marine boys. And either one might have found some fancy gubbins to put together into a gun that will tear a hole right through power armor provided they can hit the marine.
The only real constant is that Orks get bigger and tougher the more they fight (so long as they live through the fighting). For the sake of your story you could easily make the Mek a match or more than one for the marine, or weak individually but protected by a killa kan he just installed a gretchin in, or just an easily killed speed bump, or whatever else you need to make the narrative work.
I am writing a story involving both races and I would like to get a sence of peoples opinion, maybe someone could list the pros and con of each it would be much thanked.
In my opinion it all depends on what type of Ork/Marine army your playing agains, I think that in 40k you can't have an equel/fair fight because every army army is differen't. And correct me if I'm wrong but in the middle of a battle/camagin why would ether side want a fair fight, it just wouldent happen.
But I think if you want your story to be origional you should have an ork win , because SM winning all the time in black libiary books is starting to get a bit boring.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ork_Quotes#.UG2vLFGweNE wrote:Orkses is never defeated in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!
Aw. but who karez? In da end, any good scrap dem marine boyz 'ave wif da orkz iz a net viktury fer us, kuz one dead marine weakenz da lot of em. Dead orks 'appen all da time and dere's alwayz more.
dis you stinky gits!
& not only dat but not all orks is BOYZ. some of um is MANZ... and even it if aint a MANZ it could be a nob and put down a proppa krumpin on some beakies
I know that a Space Marine scout could physically manhandle an Ork Boy.
Be it in the main gameline or the RPGs, even unarmored Marines have higher strength, and there is exactly no piece of fluff that supports an Ork Boy being physically stronger than even an unarmoured Marine (But I can cite sources of Marines overpowering standard Boyz, Fulgrim, for example).
In it, Marines overpower Boyz, Solomen Demeter outright states that standard Orks are weaker than Marines (But he admits that Nobz are a little stronger).
Space Marines are stronger and more capable then your average Ork 1 on 1. Ork advantage has always been by numbers and tenacity. Nobz are an entirely different ballgame though.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ork_Quotes#.UG2vLFGweNE wrote:Orkses is never defeated in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!
That's a du*b quote, makes orks look like the annoying fat kid that always tries to cheat whenever he's losing.
Themanwiththeplan wrote: Did it not say in Fulgrim that their strength is almost a match for Astates or am I miss remembering?
It does.
Despite my trollish comment earlier on, I personally don't believe that an Ork Boy is physically all that much weaker than a Marine, but weaker he is.
I view Orks being on the upper end of S3, with Marines generally populating the whole spectrum of S4 due to variance in size and strength among them (Abaddon is big and strong for a Marine, but still S4, for example). Nobs are stronger than most Marines IMO.
given that your average marine is a veteran of probaly 2-4 decades minimum in combat before becoming a true space marine in most chapters (space wolves not being one of them) Yeah i would give in a one on one situation the power to the Marine. because in all honesty Ork society chops us down constantly but premotes one of the truest survival of the fittest cultures. Most orks are probably 2-6 years old and thankfully even though marines can beat them putting them down for the long run fluff wise... not done so easily even for a marine due to our anatomy
Surviving 30 minutes after decapitation
skin as hard as flak-board
and accepting new organ tissue is almost a statistic guarantee with orks rating 0.00029% if I recall correctly
We don't have that constant 4 strength we have the actual strength of a gorilla no joke. Once they get some momentum behind them they do amazing things (watch new planet of the apes; The gorilla Buck is very accurate to the strength of a typical Ork imo.)
We all know this boils down to a numbers game because Orks never come alone to a fight under traditional circumstances a marine should have a decent advantage against even 3-4 orks before possibly being compromised by enough ork tenacity. The real problem i see is that 5 orks is not a big number for our groups at all, that is about 1/2 the coocoons made by one dead ork. No matter what the answer will eventually become Orks so think of it like a cute tower defense game
Things are FAR more interesting once the Nobz and strange boyz start showing up tho.
1 nob with 'eavy armor vs space marine is more or less a stalemate
give that nob a huge choppa and he by the ways of 40k fluff kills that marine without question
Give him a bosspole and he now has proved he is capable of killing many marines
Give that Nob a Power Klaw and is on his way to taking out nearly entire squads of marines
Give that Power Klaw Nob even more time ... and he is well on his way to becoming a company's new chief threat in the area when he is on his way to becoming a Warboss and it won't be long till her gets a Waaagh started after so many of his good friends died to them killy space maureehns
Bobthehero wrote: Give the SM terminator armor, a power fist and an assault cannon... yeah, both sides can acquire fancy things.
until it's stalemate YET AGAIN so lets try to stop saying one side stronger people. Of course a century old veteran with above gorilla strength is going to be a nearly unkillable gorilla boy a boy isn't scary to a marine a waaagh is scary to a marine.
Rather than arguing about super saiyan power levels, I want to make some suggestions to help the OP come up with scenarios where one side or the other would likely prevail.
Squad combat scenarios
If the orks can get into melee with the marines before the marines are aware of the threat (kommando ambush, stormboy assault, etc), the orks are probably going to win a fight with even numbers. The marine advantage in discipline isn't going to help much when they don't have time to formulate/communicate a battle plan.
If the marines and orks are both aware of each other's forces, the marines will handily win any engagement of equal numbers. The orks' only hope of winning is to overwhelm the marines with vastly superior numbers, and even then they'll probably lose 5 or 10 boyz for every marine they down.
If the marines have the advantage of surprise, intel, etc (which they often do), the orks are in serious trouble. This is where the 100-to-1 casualty ratios get run up. The marines will likely target weak points in the ork command and communication structure (such as it is) so that the boyz will be milling around, unable to figure out what's explodin' their mates. The orks' only hope is to regroup.
Solo combat scenarios
One marine vs. one boy is a pretty unfair fight. The ork's main chance is to kill the marine before he's spotted, which is unlikely. The marine's power armor is going to shrug off the blows of a choppa unless it hits very precisely in a weak spot (neck, knees, elbows, armpits...basically joints) and the ork's "armor" of miscellaneous bits of scrap metal won't offer much resistance to a chainsword. This fight should be over in two or three swings.
A battle-brother vs. a nob is more of a fair fight. The nob has the strength advantage on the marine and is able to take a lot more punishment, but his equipment is still poorer. The fight becomes tilted if either one has a wargear advantage (power weapon, 'uge choppa, storm shield, cybork body, etc). Any kind of ranking marine, even a sergeant, is likely to have an advantage.
Only a hero of the Space Marines could hope to stand against a Warboss. He has the advantage over an Astartes in reach, mass, and height. He probably has a power klaw capable of crushing a marine with a single blow, and his hide is thick enough to shrug off a chainsword in all but the most vulnerable locations. Finally, he is infused with Waaagh! energy from the army that he leads. Anyone short of a captain is going to meet a swift and messy end against a Warboss, and even a chapter master is going to have a fight that he may not walk away from.
As far as meks go: mekboyz are a sort of parallel path to standard orks. A Big Mek is like a Warboss, though he's more likely to derive his advantage from gadgets than sheer orneriness. He's at least the equal of a regular Nob in a stand-up fight, though. Below him are mekboyz of varying skill, some with dangerous weapons or vehicles of their own devising, some that aren't competent to do much beyond manual labor (these are Spanna Boyz, named for the wrenches they wield in combat). These are generally about as dangerous as normal boyz.
Rather than arguing about super saiyan power levels, I want to make some suggestions to help the OP come up with scenarios where one side or the other would likely prevail.
Okay, I instant lawled.
Squad combat scenarios
If the orks can get into melee with the marines before the marines are aware of the threat (kommando ambush, stormboy assault, etc), the orks are probably going to win a fight with even numbers. The marine advantage in discipline isn't going to help much when they don't have time to formulate/communicate a battle plan.
agreed here, unpreditability has always been the best advantages orks have over any enemy especially the Necrons.
If the marines and orks are both aware of each other's forces, the marines will handily win any engagement of equal numbers. The orks' only hope of winning is to overwhelm the marines with vastly superior numbers, and even then they'll probably lose 5 or 10 boyz for every marine they down.
agreed again until our basic nob shows up anyway.
If the marines have the advantage of surprise, intel, etc (which they often do), the orks are in serious trouble. This is where the 100-to-1 casualty ratios get run up. The marines will likely target weak points in the ork command and communication structure (such as it is) so that the boyz will be milling around, unable to figure out what's explodin' their mates. The orks' only hope is to regroup.
Or as we prefer to call it, Plot tactics
Solo combat scenarios
One marine vs. one boy is a pretty unfair fight. The ork's main chance is to kill the marine before he's spotted, which is unlikely. The marine's power armor is going to shrug off the blows of a choppa unless it hits very precisely in a weak spot (neck, knees, elbows, armpits...basically joints) and the ork's "armor" of miscellaneous bits of scrap metal won't offer much resistance to a chainsword. This fight should be over in two or three swings.
Not sure I agree with this one due to the varying degree of boyz (tankbustas, lootaz, burnas ect ect ect) a typical run of the mill boy though? sure
A battle-brother vs. a nob is more of a fair fight. The nob has the strength advantage on the marine and is able to take a lot more punishment, but his equipment is still poorer. The fight becomes tilted if either one has a wargear advantage (power weapon, 'uge choppa, storm shield, cybork body, etc). Any kind of ranking marine, even a sergeant, is likely to have an advantage.
is this fluff or game mechanics at this point, cause i don't agree on a mechanics side. In challenges i rarely fear the sergeant.
Only a hero of the Space Marines could hope to stand against a Warboss. He has the advantage over an Astartes in reach, mass, and height. He probably has a power klaw capable of crushing a marine with a single blow, and his hide is thick enough to shrug off a chainsword in all but the most vulnerable locations. Finally, he is infused with Waaagh! energy from the army that he leads. Anyone short of a captain is going to meet a swift and messy end against a Warboss, and even a chapter master is going to have a fight that he may not walk away from.
I concur, it would take something like the admantine mantle or the like to hope to stand against a warboss properly because contray to the Space Marine Game a Warboss wouldn't even flinch at a plasma pistol 8 times out of 10 fluff wise.
As far as meks go: mekboyz are a sort of parallel path to standard orks. A Big Mek is like a Warboss, though he's more likely to derive his advantage from gadgets than sheer orneriness. He's at least the equal of a regular Nob in a stand-up fight, though. Below him are mekboyz of varying skill, some with dangerous weapons or vehicles of their own devising, some that aren't competent to do much beyond manual labor (these are Spanna Boyz, named for the wrenches they wield in combat). These are generally about as dangerous as normal boyz.
Not to mention the sickening number of DEFF KONSTRUKSIONS at play with the Big mek, namely the deff dred and killa kanz which are more than a match for everything marines have other than another dred (which is a close fight sometimes) or the obvious devastator squadrons or eqvi.
Situationals like this are a real awesome little fluff discussion IMO
Themanwiththeplan wrote: Did it not say in Fulgrim that their strength is almost a match for Astates or am I miss remembering?
It does.
Despite my trollish comment earlier on, I personally don't believe that an Ork Boy is physically all that much weaker than a Marine, but weaker he is.
I view Orks being on the upper end of S3, with Marines generally populating the whole spectrum of S4 due to variance in size and strength among them (Abaddon is big and strong for a Marine, but still S4, for example). Nobs are stronger than most Marines IMO.
Space marine's str= base str+power armor agmented str
Ork's str=Ork's str
An ork doesn't have any extra stuff that mahreens have. If you remove mahreens plot armor the odds are heavily on orks favour.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ork_Quotes#.UG2vLFGweNE wrote:Orkses is never defeated in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!
That's a du*b quote, makes orks look like the annoying fat kid that always tries to cheat whenever he's losing.
Clearly you have no understanding on orks. Orks are born to wage war and their sole purpose is to fight. If orks fall in battle it is considered a dream come true for orks as there no better way of dying. If orks leave it means A) the fighting is no longer worth and there better fighting going on somewhere else B) enemies are all dead/fleeing so there no fighting anymore.
Besides everybody else looks like angry fat kids loosing when compared to orks:
Oomans are pink and soft, not tough and green like da Boyz. They'z all the same size too, so they'z always arguing about who's in charge, 'cos no way of telling 'cept fer badges an' ooniforms and fings. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot of mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while they'z all arguing wiv each other over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot
illuknisaa wrote: Space marine's str= base str+power armor agmented str
Ork's str=Ork's str
An ork doesn't have any extra stuff that mahreens have. If you remove mahreens plot armor the odds are heavily on orks favour.
Prove your statement.
A Nob? In melee combat sure.
A Boy? Verify that.
Appeal to plot means exactly gak.
Also, you are aware that Space Marine Scouts, who wear Carapace Armour, are also S4, right?
correct but in fluff a space marine without "power armor" is actually significantly weaker scouts would have less of an advantage in strength but more mobility basically a more mobile ork in true fluff sense.
Wow no need to look in a dex everything is right hear in the thread though I am kinda regreting asking the orignal question as it's taken on a life of it's own, no arguements but feel free to converse and add anymore fluff, opinions and speculation but be ready to back that up lol.
What is this energy their infused with that makes them grow and get smarter, I know it's proberly waaagh but can anyone nail it down and give me a better explanation for me please. cheers
Also says scout armor is like buffed carapace armor (ie not the same as the ig stuff).
Plus it isn't powered.
Aka it doesn't increase their strength, which is all that matters.
It doesn't say they are pretty much the same at all.
Oh, and BMW, a Marine in fluff is signifigantly weaker without his armour? That isn't true, if we go by the main game, they are the same S, and if we go by Deathwatch, it adds 2 points to strength (At base they have eight).
Also says scout armor is like buffed carapace armor (ie not the same as the ig stuff).
Plus it isn't powered.
Aka it doesn't increase their strength, which is all that matters.
It doesn't say they are pretty much the same at all.
Oh, and BMW, a Marine in fluff is signifigantly weaker without his armour? That isn't true, if we go by the main game, they are the same S, and if we go by Deathwatch, it adds 2 points to strength (At base they have eight).
I play deathwatch, I know what you mean.. you guys are seriously twisting my words around. For the love of gork get your fandom out of your butts pls.
on average, an ork USING DEATH WATCH is similar strength (within the 10 brackets) of an average space marine using scout armor since it doesn't provide benefits to strength or require a power cell. I never said this matter i said it evens the strength playing field NOTHING MORE. *sigh* I'm tired of butting heads on anything IOM Void, despite the preconceptions you seem to have formed about me I actually enjoy space marines and IG nearly as uch as orks and i am still mulling over if I should get them as allies or not (more a money and collection issue than anything else)
Marines are generated with a base 30 in all stats in Deathwatch, and given a base 2d10 to their stats in things like Strength. Orks for those who don't recall start with a 25 and add the same 2d10. Literally its nearly identical on basic levels if they aren't using power armor but instead using scout armor. Also most marines who enjoy scout armor as opposed to Astartes power armor are fluff wise the youngest recruits and thus would have had less time to hone their bodies or experience. The main difference is Space marines have unnatural Strength which doubles their strength at start and orks pick it up along the way very quickly (rank 2-3 if I recall right) also an ork's strength is easily upgraded using the smallest exp needed for any stats in the class. Even an ork at rank 1 can easily sport 60+ and your 80 base is not accurate, your 30+2d10 and then modifying it for damage is different than actual strength it only gives 2 degrees of success in the game when opposed. It's very likely since orks are hardy and sport feats which make them amazing grapplers that a space marine would find his match once in hand to hand without that +2 you talk about.
on average a marine should have 41 strength which becomes 81 due to unnatural strength and 101 due to power armor, remove the power armor and you quickly see the drop goes down to 80's again and funnier still is the marines that roll 9 and lower are literally on par with infant orks. because it's entirely possible to have a 30ish strength as a marine at character generation lets say a 4 is rolled for strength. 30+4 = 34 even if he upgrades strength he is now set to 39 which using unnatural strength it become 39 with unnattural meaning he is hitting with 6's ... the same power an ork can produce at rank 1 as well.
Sorry that imply true statements like less strength and saying "less of an advantage" upset you all so much. but 20 points to strength is massive (i like that you disguised it as 2 tho...) you could spend months IRL building your character's strength through experience to replicate a similar effect (again orks are capable of doing it within their 1st level). If you have a problem with me saying something is a more even playing field but you are still more mobile and generally bettered armored i think you're (and i mean this as an inclusive statement to others not just yourself) perhaps too sensitive to the subject.
10,000 xp character vs. 5,000 xp character as well. with the xp needed to set an ork on par he is already outshining these categories but again you want to insist that a chapter of only 1000 men is always superior to orks under any condition even tap dancing in the nude so i am starting to see the futility in talking without ego or pride entering the prism of the conversation.
I'm just trolling you, tbh. Whether an ork is equal to a Space Marine outside of power armor or not is irrelevant since Marines are always in their armor anyway, and when they're not they still casually slaughter their way through dozens of orks just by having superior skill and speed.
As far as the thread's OP is concerned, the question is already answered. Space Marines > Orks by a pretty huge margin. The only thing really left to talk about is, you know, random stuff.
Also says scout armor is like buffed carapace armor (ie not the same as the ig stuff).
Plus it isn't powered.
Aka it doesn't increase their strength, which is all that matters.
It doesn't say they are pretty much the same at all.
Oh, and BMW, a Marine in fluff is signifigantly weaker without his armour? That isn't true, if we go by the main game, they are the same S, and if we go by Deathwatch, it adds 2 points to strength (At base they have eight).
I dunno all those fancy gizmos make it sound like powered. Ok I'll give you this one but lets think about space marine training. It takes about 10 years to have a mahreen implanted. A wild boy isn't even a year old and he has to survive in the wild against other orkinoids with sticks and stones. After that they might end up in a warband where they are (propably) accepted as a member. I'm guessing a space marine takes atleast another 10 years to become a fully fledged battle bro. In that time our ork recruit is easily towering over normal mahreens and eating them for breakfast. (Ghazzy rose up from boy to warboss in 6 years).
There's been a lot of talk about fair. That's just not possible. Wars are won because real life isn't fair, if life was fair the first war would still be raging to this day with rocks & sharp sticks. All the chapters would be brutal, endless slufest with every single combatant dead. The last two would stab each to death at the same moment collapsing atop one another in a pool of mingled gore.
Twenty chapters of that, no matter how well written would suck the life from even the most dedicated Fanboy. I suggest taking the best attributes of each race and creating a chapter that illustrates that quality. As an example you could have a chapter where 1 marine fights a large number of orks. One on one but is defeated when finaly presented with a fight againt 50 orks &no way to out maneuver them.
RedAngel wrote: There's been a lot of talk about fair. That's just not possible. Wars are won because real life isn't fair, if life was fair the first war would still be raging to this day with rocks & sharp sticks. All the chapters would be brutal, endless slufest with every single combatant dead. The last two would stab each to death at the same moment collapsing atop one another in a pool of mingled gore.
Twenty chapters of that, no matter how well written would suck the life from even the most dedicated Fanboy. I suggest taking the best attributes of each race and creating a chapter that illustrates that quality. As an example you could have a chapter where 1 marine fights a large number of orks. One on one but is defeated when finaly presented with a fight againt 50 orks &no way to out maneuver them.
You have to understand how space Maureen Fanboyz are indoctrinated to accept as law in their own minds is something akin to this.
RedAngel - the story I'm writting at the moment, (cough) on dakka fiction lol, has to start out wiv a little ork bashing as this is fluff for my d.i.y chapter (can't have them looking like panzies in front of the other chapters) later on the orks will have their day but I needed it to be believable fluff wise so I wanted to know how they stacked up against each other. by the looks of the thread mission complete a big thank you to everyone who has posted.
Big Mek Wurrzog - yes I am a marine fanboy but war is war and people die...alot, it depends on the fortunes of war as to who dies and when and where not hey he's a marine he can't die until he has killed 100,000,000 orks, thats just lame and as already said boring.
I think ork fans should be flattered They're the bad guys everyone wants to beat. For hordes thiers Nids, but people prefer to blaze away at Da Waaagghh. Unstopable, all powerful evil? Fight chaos! HEll No! We'z wants tuh stomp da green 'uns!
PS. Themanwiththeplan
You know what I like? Chocolate ice cream, but not just plain ice cream. I want choco bombs on it with choco syrup. Throw some more choco ice cream on that in fact and drown it in choco sprinkles. Basicaly...no matter how bad the fluff is ill read it so long as its extra fluffy ONWARD. FELLOW SPACE MARINE ! ! !
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: I play deathwatch, I know what you mean.. you guys are seriously twisting my words around. For the love of gork get your fandom out of your butts pls.
I play and like Orks. I don't really care for most Marines.
Is your mind blown?
on average, an ork USING DEATH WATCH is similar strength (within the 10 brackets) of an average space marine using scout armor since it doesn't provide benefits to strength or require a power cell. I never said this matter i said it evens the strength playing field NOTHING MORE. *sigh* I'm tired of butting heads on anything IOM Void, despite the preconceptions you seem to have formed about me I actually enjoy space marines and IG nearly as uch as orks and i am still mulling over if I should get them as allies or not (more a money and collection issue than anything else)
Haha, you made preconceptions about me then moaned about me allegedly making preconceptions about you, that's ironic.
Marines are generated with a base 30 in all stats in Deathwatch, and given a base 2d10 to their stats in things like Strength. Orks for those who don't recall start with a 25 and add the same 2d10. Literally its nearly identical on basic levels if they aren't using power armor but instead using scout armor. Also most marines who enjoy scout armor as opposed to Astartes power armor are fluff wise the youngest recruits and thus would have had less time to hone their bodies or experience. The main difference is Space marines have unnatural Strength which doubles their strength at start and orks pick it up along the way very quickly (rank 2-3 if I recall right) also an ork's strength is easily upgraded using the smallest exp needed for any stats in the class. Even an ork at rank 1 can easily sport 60+ and your 80 base is not accurate, your 30+2d10 and then modifying it for damage is different than actual strength it only gives 2 degrees of success in the game when opposed. It's very likely since orks are hardy and sport feats which make them amazing grapplers that a space marine would find his match once in hand to hand without that +2 you talk about.
Once an Ork gets Unnatural Strength x2, it ceases being an Ork Boy. It is now a Nob or on the path to becoming one.
The character creation rules IMHO don't really portray the average as well as, say,the bestiary does. In the bestiary a Marine is something like str 45 with unnatural strength x 2. A Boy is str 46 with no such modifier.
I am talking about averages. I am sure there might be some particularly imposing Boyz, just as there are particularly imposing Marines (Abaddon, Arjac Rockfist, Kharn, Draigo, etc).
on average a marine should have 41 strength which becomes 81 due to unnatural strength and 101 due to power armor, remove the power armor and you quickly see the drop goes down to 80's again and funnier still is the marines that roll 9 and lower are literally on par with infant orks. because it's entirely possible to have a 30ish strength as a marine at character generation lets say a 4 is rolled for strength. 30+4 = 34 even if he upgrades strength he is now set to 39 which using unnatural strength it become 39 with unnattural meaning he is hitting with 6's ... the same power an ork can produce at rank 1 as well.
You're comparing the absolute best-case scenario for an Ork to the worst case for a Marine.
Stop it. It is irrelevant to the point of this thread.
Sorry that imply true statements like less strength and saying "less of an advantage" upset you all so much. but 20 points to strength is massive (i like that you disguised it as 2 tho...) you could spend months IRL building your character's strength through experience to replicate a similar effect (again orks are capable of doing it within their 1st level). If you have a problem with me saying something is a more even playing field but you are still more mobile and generally bettered armored i think you're (and i mean this as an inclusive statement to others not just yourself) perhaps too sensitive to the subject.
I said 2 because every ten points of strength upgrades the modifier by one. I was entirely honest.
I'm not sensitive to the subject at all, demonstratively less than you certainly, considering the heartfelt tl;dr post you just sent my way.
10,000 xp character vs. 5,000 xp character as well. with the xp needed to set an ork on par he is already outshining these categories but again you want to insist that a chapter of only 1000 men is always superior to orks under any condition even tap dancing in the nude so i am starting to see the futility in talking without ego or pride entering the prism of the conversation.
Now you're not so much twisting my words as you are putting them into my mouth.
I said, on average (You should really look up what this word means), a Marine is physically superior (And overall much superior) to an Ork Boy, nothing more, nothing less. Your disingenuous accusations will not fly here sir.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: You have to understand how space Maureen Fanboyz are indoctrinated to accept as law in their own minds is something akin to this.
1 Marine vs 9001 orks
Pipe = thunderhammer btw....
I'd say that's quite accurate, actually... providing Neo = 1st Company Vet with power fists and the Smiths = Grots with wrenches! (well, except that one guy @ 3:04... imagin a Grot doing that to a Marine yeah, maybe make that one a Nob w/ power claw or something ).
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: You have to understand how space Maureen Fanboyz are indoctrinated to accept as law in their own minds is something akin to this.
1 Marine vs 9001 orks
Pipe = thunderhammer btw....
I'd say that's quite accurate, actually... providing Neo = 1st Company Vet with power fists and the Smiths = Grots with wrenches! (well, except that one guy @ 3:04... imagin a Grot doing that to a Marine yeah, maybe make that one a Nob w/ power claw or something ).
I'm actually willing to completely support the grot idea they are basically children which seems like the only impacts Neo is actually taking.
If the orks can get into melee with the marines before the marines are aware of the threat (kommando ambush, stormboy assault, etc), the orks are probably going to win a fight with even numbers. The marine advantage in discipline isn't going to help much when they don't have time to formulate/communicate a battle plan.
No, but the marine's advantage in discipline probably means they have immediate action drills to deal with sudden occurrences like this. It's not a win button by any stretch, but soldiers can engage in coordinated action with minimal communication if they are all working from the same play book, which is something the marines have in spades.
1 Ultramarines company (100 men) defeated an entire ork Waaaaghh. With something like 12 space marine casualties lol
And I'm sure the Imperial Guard there didn't help at all.
agreed, what is frustrating to explain to people is that Orkish Waaagh's are of varying levels when it comes to orks, thus why there are always so many ravaging the Impeium at the same time. Things like Waaaagh Wazzdakka is more dangerous than waaagh grimgore. It depends how infamous the orks have been how long the warboss has been around if if that boss has any major trophies or feats under his belt. These same factors are what impress us at 40k players but also the orks themselves the more you read or hear about these things the more grandeous and obnoxious the horde becomes to deal with. Since most these examples are coming from Space Marine codexes i would say.... it's more than likely a minor waaagh with IG assistance.
Space marines are obviously better than orks, but even they are not able to face most waaaghs without becoming a destroyed chapter or ravaged one without the assitance of "The Hammer of the Emperor" the IG. Don't take offense if you are Space Marines, this is directly in correlation with how the Codex Astartes says they should behave.
1 Ultramarines company (100 men) defeated an entire ork Waaaaghh. With something like 12 space marine casualties lol
And I'm sure the Imperial Guard there didn't help at all.
agreed, what is frustrating to explain to people is that Orkish Waaagh's are of varying levels when it comes to orks, thus why there are always so many ravaging the Impeium at the same time. Things like Waaaagh Wazzdakka is more dangerous than waaagh grimgore. It depends how infamous the orks have been how long the warboss has been around if if that boss has any major trophies or feats under his belt. These same factors are what impress us at 40k players but also the orks themselves the more you read or hear about these things the more grandeous and obnoxious the horde becomes to deal with. Since most these examples are coming from Space Marine codexes i would say.... it's more than likely a minor waaagh with IG assistance.
Space marines are obviously better than orks, but even they are not able to face most waaaghs without becoming a destroyed chapter or ravaged one without the assitance of "The Hammer of the Emperor" the IG. Don't take offense if you are Space Marines, this is directly in correlation with how the Codex Astartes says they should behave.
Agreed with 100%.
A good example of this would be:
Waagh rampages through a couple of worlds.
IG arrives by the truckloads to grind its momentum to a halt.
SM kill teams are sent in to cut off the Waagh's head by killing the Warboss, effectively breaking its back so the IG can sweep it away.
Themanwiththeplan wrote: What about those big squiggs they use on their space ships for air ventilation, can they break free and go on the rampage or are they too fat to move?
Orks iz da biggest and da best, space Mahreens can't handle da endless mobs of da boyz wez packin, just ask dem krimson fist boyz they'll tell ya what's what
My 2 pence as a SM player and lover of both SM and Ork fluff:
Scout vs Ork = Fairly even at close range, though Scout will shoot Ork to death if possible of get a stealth advantage.
Marine vs Ork = Imagine an adult versus a child with a slightly blunt knife. The Marine can easily dispatch the Ork, but still needs to be wary.
Marine vs Kommando = Again, like the above. The Kommando might get a few strikes in, but the Astartes can still take the greenskin out.
Marine vs Nob = Ah, here we are. These two are very close, the Nob being more resilient to the Astartes, but the Space Marine can still outwit and outlast the Nob. However, a power klaw will make this a fairly certain Nob win. Still not entire squad killing capablility yet though.
Sergeant vs Nob = Sergeant wins against a normal Nob, but a power klaw Nob is harder. The outcome still favours the Sergeant due to better wargear (chainsword, possible power weapon) and experience, but the Nob is a powerful adversary.
Sergeant vs Warboss = A non-PK Warboss will prove difficult to a Sergeant, but possible. A PK toting one will pretty much always kill the Sergeant in melee, but shooting at it may even this up a bit.
Captain vs Warboss = Captain, no question. More experience and skill. Warbosses are part of a day's work.
Captain vs Warlord = A Captain will definately struggle, this is a very even fight.
Captain vs Ghazkull level Warlord = Warlord, easily.
So, you see here that SM usually beat their Ork ranking equivilant. BS, I hear you cry. I understand. Isolated, these reports are clearly in favour of Marines. That's why there are hundreds of Orks for every Marine, hundreds of Warbosses for each Captain. There are probably more Nobs than regular Marines, which makes this then very hard for Marines.
If in a protracted fight against a large horde of Orks, instead of rapid alpha strikes to kill a smaller body of greenskins, the Astartes will need to use firepower and strategic placement to secure victory. If a large enough mob of Orks reach Marine lines, the Astartes will eventually go down to sheer numbers.
Craziest thing I've heard from the ork side in this thread is one ork boy beating a chapter master in hand to hand.
Space marine side is one or two marines taking out a company of orks. lawl. (honorable mention goes to "if marines can shoot ork leadership the orks'll mill about like sheep whilst being slaughtered.)
I mean, I get that that and worse has actually been written in canon, but that's really dire writing and painfully obvious mary sue-ing. I'll take the dumbest hairsquig and "what-we-belive-becomes-reality" over that nonsense any day.
Also, average space marine beats average ork in the orks strongest field, hand to hand combat.
Orks do tell of a legendary ork who grew so massive that he can literally carry his entire Waaagh on his back, this is probably an urban legend but how crazy would it be if some crazy massive Ork was swimming around in space punching planets
Orks do tell of a legendary ork who grew so massive that he can literally carry his entire Waaagh on his back, this is probably an urban legend but how crazy would it be if some crazy massive Ork was swimming around in space punching planets
Reminds me of "Turtles all the way down". A bunch of Orks riding on the backs of bigger Orks, going down infinitely. Lawl.
Omegus wrote: Normally, a sole ork is a mildly dangerous opponent for a Space Marine.
Potentially, however, Orks can grow strong and large enough to challenge Primarchs and the Emperor.
Scrabb wrote: There was also the ork who managed to get the Emprah himself in a choke hold.
The Orks never threatened the Emperor- he let that monster grip him just so Horus could "save" the Emperor and have a bonding moment. The Emperor later then wiped out millions of Orks in a second IIRC by casually erasing them and dissolving their bodies. He's also capable of moving at hypersonic speeds, teleportation, stopping time in a solar system wide area, and killing pretty much anything with a corporeal body with mind bullets.
Orks do tell of a legendary ork who grew so massive that he can literally carry his entire Waaagh on his back, this is probably an urban legend but how crazy would it be if some crazy massive Ork was swimming around in space punching planets
The Orks never threatened the Emperor- he let that monster grip him just so Horus could "save" the Emperor and have a bonding moment. The Emperor later then wiped out millions of Orks in a second IIRC by casually erasing them and dissolving their bodies. He's also capable of moving at hypersonic speeds, teleportation, stopping time in a solar system wide area, and killing pretty much anything with a corporeal body with mind bullets.
Not sure if serious. (The similarities with superman have me hoping it's a joke)
The Emperor was, and is, the greater Psyker to have ever lived. It is not surprising that he could do all of that at all. Alpha-level+ Psykers are very powerful beings.
The Orks never threatened the Emperor- he let that monster grip him just so Horus could "save" the Emperor and have a bonding moment. The Emperor later then wiped out millions of Orks in a second IIRC by casually erasing them and dissolving their bodies. He's also capable of moving at hypersonic speeds, teleportation, stopping time in a solar system wide area, and killing pretty much anything with a corporeal body with mind bullets.
Not sure if serious. (The similarities with superman have me hoping it's a joke)
I don't see why moving at hypersonic speeds, stopping time, instagibbing pretty much anything with a pulse, etc would hint at sarcasm or a joking statement. The Emperor is the single most powerful entity with a body in M30, and went on to become a gestating warp god. A Warboss, no matter how big, isn't going to even pose a minor threat.
Well technically the Emperor is still just a man. An ork who shoots him in the back will kill him just has easily than any other human being. Of course, he is the strongest human psyker in history by a good margin (we don't know if other species had even stronger psykers, but it would be probable when we talk about species with more psychic potential than humans like eldars). Plus if that one warboss happenned to be a high level null, the Emperor's powers would be useless against him.
The Ciaphis Cain novels have mentioned an ork can sheer through power armor with an axe by brute strength alone, I believe it was in Caves of Ice, near the start of the book iirc. If a space marine let's an ork get that close to him can be a problem, but a space marine's best bet is to kill the ork with a bolter shot before it gets close. However, that isn't always possible with a swarm of orks, and then the space marine could be in trouble, especially if he has the fighting capability of Uriel Ventris.
Ashiraya wrote: I consider the Space Marine game an accurate depiction of such battles.
QFT. The Space Marine game is pretty good at this, probably excluding the difficulty of killing CSM. But the SM vs Ork combats are pretty accurate!
The battles with CSM in that game are bad. They are stupid and fight like cucumbers, so they make them seem powerful by having five times your health and armour instead.
Well technically the Emperor is still just a man. An ork who shoots him in the back will kill him just has easily than any other human being. Of course, he is the strongest human psyker in history by a good margin (we don't know if other species had even stronger psykers, but it would be probable when we talk about species with more psychic potential than humans like eldars). Plus if that one warboss happenned to be a high level null, the Emperor's powers would be useless against him.
Wat
The Emperor's isn't human at all. He can change his shape at will, not to mention that moving at hypersonic speeds with near instant acceleration would kill a normal human being. He's stronger and more durable then any of the Primarchs. Hell, just looking at him can burn your eyes. Literally. His physical form is so intense and powerful that a mortal human can have their eyeballs burned out by looking at him directly for too long. Also, not only are there no Ork nulls (it's physically impossible because Orks are all latent psykers), but nulls also only exist in humans.... because the human race was genetically engineered to have them in the first place. There are no such things as Ork Nulls.
Nevermind that Nulls can't do much against Alpha Plus psykers. Just for example, your usual Alpha psyker can do stuff like chuck starships at people, instantly kill titans with a single thought, or enslave hundreds upon hundreds of billions of people to their mind as puppets. The Emperor is stronger then these people, to the point that his power literally breaks the chart. If he wants, he can simply chuck an entire planet into the Warp, or rip open a full blown Warp Storm.
The Emperor isn't a man. He never was a man. He's hundreds, if not thousands of human beings poured into a single superhuman body. Remember, the Primarchs are partial clones of the Emperor, each representing a single facet of his persona and power. Combine them all together and you get somebody more or less on his level of power, albeit still probably not as psychically powerful.
I like how Nobz are portrayed in Space Marine as well. They are gigantic, strong and hardy, but if he is allowed to focus a Space Marine can still reliably defeat one in melee - he just needs time to interrupt or dodge its swings and hit back repeatedly.
However, odds quickly turn grim if it is more than one Nob (in which case they will overwhelm the Marine as they are depriving him of space to dodge, and he can't counter all of their attacks at once), or if he is taking heavy fire from other sources while fighting.
Normally being outnumbered is not really a problem for Marines in melee, when facing enemies like boyz or IG. They can just dodge anyway as if nothing happened, and if they happen to dodge onto an enemy who tried to impede his movement, then the enemy will just get crushed in the process and it's a free kill. Or he can just not dodge, in which case most mundane attacks will just bounce off the plating anyway.
Big enemies like Nobz make this harder though. They are too big and tough for him to dodge onto them, so they can quickly remove his space. He also can't just ignore their attacks - nobz are ridiculously strong and the blunt force of their attacks can damage the Astartes even if it does not break his armour.
Titus is rather *ahem* Heterodox with the type of Ultramarines who are handed a copy of the HOLY CODEX THAT CONTAINS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW NEVERMIND GULLIMAN'S OWN WORDS ON THE SUBJECT LOYAL ULTRAMARINE and told to memorize it, though.
I doubt a conformist like- say, Leandros- would be as willing to engage a Nob in single melee combat as willingly. To a "orthodox" smurf, that's tantamount to suicide- not that I'd blame them for that sentiment.
RaptorusRex wrote: Titus is rather *ahem* Heterodox with the type of Ultramarines who are handed a copy of the HOLY CODEX THAT CONTAINS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW NEVERMIND GULLIMAN'S OWN WORDS ON THE SUBJECT LOYAL ULTRAMARINE and told to memorize it, though.
I doubt a conformist like- say, Leandros- would be as willing to engage a Nob in single melee combat as willingly. To a "orthodox" smurf, that's tantamount to suicide- not that I'd blame them for that sentiment.
Nobs simply won't die to gunfire in Space Marine, I think that's pretty realistic having to expend like 3-4 bolter clips to take one down but I'd think the Codex would recognize attacking a Nob from afar with a Bolter is pretty dumb.
Aim for the head and they don't take too long dying.
I doubt a Space Marine would have much trouble landing headshots - as a gun platform he can absorb some serious kickback and with that much strength he provides a lot of stability to the aim. Not to mention the, you know, long and constant training and experience with guns.
The fluff is very specific, if a painboy reaches the head and body in time it can be reattached and the Ork can continue fighting. Although just like Necron don't rise from the dead from animation protocol and get feel no pain instead even if the fluff says otherwise, the same effect is in play when a painboy is within 12" of orks. Their own 'reanimation protocol' is also represented by a feel no pain roll.
I'm an Ork player and I too agree that a solo Boy vs a Space Marine will lose. Space Marines are Human's elite forces, boyz aren't Ork's elite forces. Orks are a horde army just like the IG/AM and an Ork is more comparable to one of them. If they both stayed still and shot it out at each other the Guard has a better chance of winning, if they go into melee the Ork has a better chance of winning. If you want Ork's racial elite troops look no further then Nobz.. But in the end the dice can rule the day if many dice are brought to the table for that turn. It's nice when a pack of grots slip in a wound and removes a Terminator from the board and more then pays for itself right there.
Nevertheless, the very fact that an ork can even have a chance of going on after decapitation shows how resilient an ork is. I mean, they can get cut in half, and then rip a man's leg off with one arm, proceeding to beat the man to death with their leg. In a one on one fight, a space marine will kill a boy 9/10 times, but orks don't come in one on one fights, and the orks are still insanely resistant to damage. As a species designed only for war, they have to be.
Note:I'm only talking about fluff here, not the tabletop game
ProwlerPC wrote: The fluff is very specific, if a painboy reaches the head and body in time it can be reattached and the Ork can continue fighting.
I bolded and underlined my caveat for you. Does humans have any time span to get their head reattached to actually have an ingame effect? No it's an instant death. But again fluff isn't always translated well to game mechanics which was the other caveat I put in.
I have the Codex too.
If this was an argument about game mechanics and not fluff then most arguments fail since grots have killed termies and IG have killed Warbosses. Dice ftw.
Maj. Kolbak wrote: Space Marines fluff wise are better than the average boy, its when the Big 'Uns get involved and such that things start getting interesting but one on one Marines.
Big Ork is best Ork.
There are Orks out there who are big enuff to krump most space marines.
That said, Ghazhkull is one of da biggesst an' meenest Orkz around, and Yarrick keeps kicking him down.
Although, then again, Yarrick is also capable of some serious marine-krumping when he sets his mind to it.
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Ashiraya wrote: I consider the Space Marine game an accurate depiction of such battles.
Works for me, so long as you are on the hardest difficulty setting.
Ork boyz = cannon fodder
Ork nobz = legit threat
Big Bad Black Ork Nobz = Gonna krump ya, unless you're seriously ready for them.
Grimskull = here comes the pain train. Until you learn to kite his attacks.
Helsreach by a.d.b is pretty good at portraying marines as enhanced humans and not invincible uber gods of war. plus as they're templars theres not a great deal of mincing around with bolters its all about chainswords so plenty of hand to hand combat. yes its from the templars pov but then it does feel quite balanced.
one on one the templars have the edge against normal boys but when the numbers are realistic the orks start to erode them down.
ProwlerPC wrote: The fluff is very specific, if a painboy reaches the head and body in time it can be reattached and the Ork can continue fighting.
I bolded and underlined my caveat for you. Does humans have any time span to get their head reattached to actually have an ingame effect? No it's an instant death. But again fluff isn't always translated well to game mechanics which was the other caveat I put in.
I have the Codex too.
No.
An Ork's head can live on for some time when completely severed from the body, and can even be transplanted to another body altogether before death sets in.
As far as I know, the above sentence means that the head dies on its own after a time, and can even be put on another body where it will work for a while before dying.
Works for me, so long as you are on the hardest difficulty setting. Ork boyz = cannon fodder Ork nobz = legit threat Big Bad Black Ork Nobz = Gonna krump ya, unless you're seriously ready for them. Grimskull = here comes the pain train. Until you learn to kite his attacks.
I did not notice much difference between the difficulty settings, but that's just me.
In SM, the higher the difficulty setting, the greater the Ork's damage output. Highest has about 4x the output of the lowsest,
Ofc, it doesn't really matter in rage mode.
Selym wrote: In SM, the higher the difficulty setting, the greater the Ork's damage output. Highest has about 4x the output of the lowsest,
Ofc, it doesn't really matter in rage mode.
nightshae007 wrote: Technically, a warboss with a power klaw could shred a marine into pieces... just saying
This thread died over 2 years ago...
But now that it has been given this unholy second life, I guess I might as well chime in.
I agree with several other people here that a single Space Marine is roughly on the same level as a strong Ork Nob (a Nob wearing power armour is far stronger though). A Space Marine can slaughter small groups of lesser Orks with ease, but an Ork Warboss can do the same to Space Marines. Orks can really vary in strenght, because the more they fight, the bigger they grow and stronger they become. An Ork that survives long enough can reach truly awesome levels of power. See the Ork that almost killed the Emperor for an example
Iron_Captain wrote: See the Ork that almost killed the Emperor for an example
That is contested. There's a thread on it right now.
That said, I think it's far easier for an SM to kill boyz than it is for a warboss to kill SM. The warboss is not fast enough to use his strength and toughness advantages in the same way.
"The greenskin regenerative process itself is so powerful that an Ork who has been hacked to bits can simply be stitched back together, bewildered but ready to fight once more. Nothing but the most grievous wounds will put an Ork down for long, and burning them to ash is reputed to be the only way to make absolutely sure that they are gone for good." - pg 6 Ork Codex
Being chopped to bits would've been one of those grievous wounds that would've kept that Ork down for very long, luckily a painboy was near to stitch him up before the hacked up living bits died. Had there not, those living bits would've laid there till they died.
"Ork's green colouration could be explained, scholars suggest, due to some form of algae that permeates their cellular makeup. Such a substance could break down and repair damaged tissue at an incredible rate, accounting in part for the Ork's extremely durable metabolism. Those observers of other races who maintain this theory point to the fact that an Ork's head can live for some time after being completely severed from the body. Indeed, operations to reattach these are a staple of many a Painboy's repertoire (staple being the operative word)." - pg 14 Ork Codex
It says there it reattaches the head not move it to another body. Pg 6 already told us that the body can be hacked to bits and still be stitched back together. This statement on pg 14 further exemplifies this by saying even the head can be removed. But I suppose if the logic that it's original body is dead and no longer a viable candidate for the living head then another headless body would be just as unviable of an option.
"Yet Ork physiology is incredibly durable, their pain threshold high enough that all but the most grievous invasive procedures can be survived. Painboyz' brutal liberties are normally overlooked, especially when a Dok successfully re-staples a prominent Nob's head mid-battle, or furnishes the Warboss with a brand new flame-throwing arm." - pg 58 Ork Codex (painboy entry)
Ashiraya wrote: No, the head continues living a short time if removed, and they die soon anyway even if it is transplanted.
But the body dies without the head.
But for fun I'd like to explore the idea of this. Ok so it's original body died without the head. I imagine the other headless body died without it's head and can't be used either. What's our other option...two headed Orks? Ok so if the head is attached to an Ork with a head already, which is dominant? Does attaching the head to the full Ork mean the whole Ork dies later or is it just the attached head? If the whole Ork why sacrifice the Ork and just leave the other head to die? If just the head, wouldn't that smell? What would be the point of attaching a decomposing head to a full Ork?
Ashiraya wrote: An Ork's head can live on for some time when completely severed from the body, and can even be transplanted to another body altogether before death sets in.
I can't find this line. What page? Since it's the premise of your argument.
It's pretty obvious that the head has to be attached to the body before either the body or head dies at any cellular level, Orks are hardy enough that these parts will take time to die and if a painboy is nearby he can put humpty dumpty back together again as long as he does it before those parts die. Also while I imagine it's possible for an Painboy to put the head of an Ork onto another Ork's headless body I haven't seen the line yet and I've not seen instance of two headed Orks yet. I'm guessing the genetic programming of the Painboy doesn't allow for it at an instinctive level (all oddboy knowledge is genetically encoded) but rather stays inline with the original Ork template.
nightshae007 wrote: Technically, a warboss with a power klaw could shred a marine into pieces... just saying
This thread died over 2 years ago...
But now that it has been given this unholy second life, I guess I might as well chime in.
I agree with several other people here that a single Space Marine is roughly on the same level as a strong Ork Nob (a Nob wearing power armour is far stronger though). A Space Marine can slaughter small groups of lesser Orks with ease, but an Ork Warboss can do the same to Space Marines. Orks can really vary in strenght, because the more they fight, the bigger they grow and stronger they become. An Ork that survives long enough can reach truly awesome levels of power. See the Ork that almost killed the Emperor for an example
The Ork not only didn't nearly kill the Emperor after Horus "saved" him, after being "saved", the Emperor immediately curbstomped it by cutting it from sternum to pelvis, then completely erased it by destroying it down to the soul, the same fate that would await Horus near the end of M30.
ProwlerPC wrote: I can't find this line. What page? Since it's the premise of your argument.
Page 11, 4th edition Ork codex. Still comparatively recent, came 2007. I haven't read their last codex (not too impressed with it) but if the passage is omitted it is technically still not a retcon.
I'd say a space marine can shoot aloot of orks but in cc he could kill 3 and than get overwhelmed , ork nob would smack regular sm and is worth 1,5 - 2 marines in cc . And ofcours there are super lucky heroes who just smack ork warbosses, hivetyrants and so on ...
It's pretty hard to gauge a fair fight, orks won't sit around, do a calculation, and send in X amount of orks against the space marines. They go all or nothing, and see how it goes from there. And very few times are space marines alone either, they at least will have their squad with them, unless they already died perhaps. But if their entire squad had died from fighting, the surviving marine is probably injured, which wouldn't make it a fair fight for him.
Going for the "depends on the Ork and depends on the Marine" side.
Didn't a warboss nearly kill the emperor and only didn't due to intervention from Horus?
But my thinking is along this -
Grot v Scout - Scout Wins
Boy v Marine - Marine wins
Nob v Captain - Nob wins
Mega-Nob v Terminator - Mega-Nob wins
Warboss v Chapter Master - Varied results pending on Boss and Chapter Master
Not sure about nob vs captain. I'd say that nob wins out vs a regular marine but captain is usually equipped to the best sm standards and can put up a good fight himself. I think that Captain vs Nob is in captain's favor. Captains even stand a chance against Warbosses, though, it's an uphill battle for a marine. Chapter masters are not much different to Captains other than having access to some of the unique equipment and possessing even more battle experience.
But a warboss is a true beast up close, he has a potential to bring down almost any chapter master in the galaxy fluffwise.
On the other hand, neither captains/chapter masters nor nobs/warbosses are standing there in the open field waiting for a 1 on one fight. So, there's really no use comparing them 1 on 1. Yep, a Tiger tank beats T-34 in the open field one on one all day every day. But on a real battlefield there are always 3 times more T-34 tanks that are also faster and more maneuvrable.
Aw. but who karez? In da end, any good scrap dem marine boyz 'ave wif da orkz iz a net viktury fer us, kuz one dead marine weakenz da lot of em. Dead orks 'appen all da time and dere's alwayz more. 
, because 
yeah, maybe make that one a Nob w/ power claw or something 
