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 Bobthehero wrote:
Frankly, Orcs fanboys aren't better.

Craziest thing I've heard from the ork side in this thread is one ork boy beating a chapter master in hand to hand.

Space marine side is one or two marines taking out a company of orks. lawl. (honorable mention goes to "if marines can shoot ork leadership the orks'll mill about like sheep whilst being slaughtered.)



I mean, I get that that and worse has actually been written in canon, but that's really dire writing and painfully obvious mary sue-ing. I'll take the dumbest hairsquig and "what-we-belive-becomes-reality" over that nonsense any day.


Also, average space marine beats average ork in the orks strongest field, hand to hand combat.

Scrabb wrote:Also, average space marine beats average ork in the orks strongest field, hand to hand combat.

There's always somebody better than you at what you're best at.

Yup!


Unless you're wolverine.


To be clear, that was an honest statement of my opinion and a reflection on how actually awesome space marines are.

I consider the Space Marine game an accurate depiction of such battles.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I consider the Space Marine game an accurate depiction of such battles.

QFT. The Space Marine game is pretty good at this, probably excluding the difficulty of killing CSM. But the SM vs Ork combats are pretty accurate!

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
Holey Emperor's gak, so how big do they get?

Orks do tell of a legendary ork who grew so massive that he can literally carry his entire Waaagh on his back, this is probably an urban legend but how crazy would it be if some crazy massive Ork was swimming around in space punching planets

 chazz huggins wrote:

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
Holey Emperor's gak, so how big do they get?

Orks do tell of a legendary ork who grew so massive that he can literally carry his entire Waaagh on his back, this is probably an urban legend but how crazy would it be if some crazy massive Ork was swimming around in space punching planets

Reminds me of "Turtles all the way down". A bunch of Orks riding on the backs of bigger Orks, going down infinitely. Lawl.

There was also the ork who managed to get the Emprah himself in a choke hold.

 Omegus wrote:
Normally, a sole ork is a mildly dangerous opponent for a Space Marine.

Potentially, however, Orks can grow strong and large enough to challenge Primarchs and the Emperor.

 Scrabb wrote:
There was also the ork who managed to get the Emprah himself in a choke hold.

The Orks never threatened the Emperor- he let that monster grip him just so Horus could "save" the Emperor and have a bonding moment. The Emperor later then wiped out millions of Orks in a second IIRC by casually erasing them and dissolving their bodies. He's also capable of moving at hypersonic speeds, teleportation, stopping time in a solar system wide area, and killing pretty much anything with a corporeal body with mind bullets.

Orks do tell of a legendary ork who grew so massive that he can literally carry his entire Waaagh on his back, this is probably an urban legend but how crazy would it be if some crazy massive Ork was swimming around in space punching planets

Hahaha brilliant

 Wyzilla wrote:

The Orks never threatened the Emperor- he let that monster grip him just so Horus could "save" the Emperor and have a bonding moment. The Emperor later then wiped out millions of Orks in a second IIRC by casually erasing them and dissolving their bodies. He's also capable of moving at hypersonic speeds, teleportation, stopping time in a solar system wide area, and killing pretty much anything with a corporeal body with mind bullets.

Not sure if serious. (The similarities with superman have me hoping it's a joke)

The Emperor was, and is, the greater Psyker to have ever lived. It is not surprising that he could do all of that at all. Alpha-level+ Psykers are very powerful beings.

 Scrabb wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

The Orks never threatened the Emperor- he let that monster grip him just so Horus could "save" the Emperor and have a bonding moment. The Emperor later then wiped out millions of Orks in a second IIRC by casually erasing them and dissolving their bodies. He's also capable of moving at hypersonic speeds, teleportation, stopping time in a solar system wide area, and killing pretty much anything with a corporeal body with mind bullets.

Not sure if serious. (The similarities with superman have me hoping it's a joke)

I don't see why moving at hypersonic speeds, stopping time, instagibbing pretty much anything with a pulse, etc would hint at sarcasm or a joking statement. The Emperor is the single most powerful entity with a body in M30, and went on to become a gestating warp god. A Warboss, no matter how big, isn't going to even pose a minor threat.

@Wyzilla

Well technically the Emperor is still just a man. An ork who shoots him in the back will kill him just has easily than any other human being. Of course, he is the strongest human psyker in history by a good margin (we don't know if other species had even stronger psykers, but it would be probable when we talk about species with more psychic potential than humans like eldars). Plus if that one warboss happenned to be a high level null, the Emperor's powers would be useless against him.

The Ciaphis Cain novels have mentioned an ork can sheer through power armor with an axe by brute strength alone, I believe it was in Caves of Ice, near the start of the book iirc. If a space marine let's an ork get that close to him can be a problem, but a space marine's best bet is to kill the ork with a bolter shot before it gets close. However, that isn't always possible with a swarm of orks, and then the space marine could be in trouble, especially if he has the fighting capability of Uriel Ventris.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I consider the Space Marine game an accurate depiction of such battles.

QFT. The Space Marine game is pretty good at this, probably excluding the difficulty of killing CSM. But the SM vs Ork combats are pretty accurate!

The battles with CSM in that game are bad. They are stupid and fight like cucumbers, so they make them seem powerful by having five times your health and armour instead.

The Orks, though, are fine.

epronovost wrote:
@Wyzilla

Well technically the Emperor is still just a man. An ork who shoots him in the back will kill him just has easily than any other human being. Of course, he is the strongest human psyker in history by a good margin (we don't know if other species had even stronger psykers, but it would be probable when we talk about species with more psychic potential than humans like eldars). Plus if that one warboss happenned to be a high level null, the Emperor's powers would be useless against him.

Wat

The Emperor's isn't human at all. He can change his shape at will, not to mention that moving at hypersonic speeds with near instant acceleration would kill a normal human being. He's stronger and more durable then any of the Primarchs. Hell, just looking at him can burn your eyes. Literally. His physical form is so intense and powerful that a mortal human can have their eyeballs burned out by looking at him directly for too long. Also, not only are there no Ork nulls (it's physically impossible because Orks are all latent psykers), but nulls also only exist in humans.... because the human race was genetically engineered to have them in the first place. There are no such things as Ork Nulls.

Nevermind that Nulls can't do much against Alpha Plus psykers. Just for example, your usual Alpha psyker can do stuff like chuck starships at people, instantly kill titans with a single thought, or enslave hundreds upon hundreds of billions of people to their mind as puppets. The Emperor is stronger then these people, to the point that his power literally breaks the chart. If he wants, he can simply chuck an entire planet into the Warp, or rip open a full blown Warp Storm.

The Emperor isn't a man. He never was a man. He's hundreds, if not thousands of human beings poured into a single superhuman body. Remember, the Primarchs are partial clones of the Emperor, each representing a single facet of his persona and power. Combine them all together and you get somebody more or less on his level of power, albeit still probably not as psychically powerful.

I'll drop the discussion of the big E if you will. I don't think we're helping OP on his question anymore.

Ork Warboss > Space Marine

Ork Nob = Space Marine
Space Marine > Ork Boy

 TedNugent wrote:
Ork Warboss > Space Marine

Ork Nob = Space Marine
Space Marine > Ork Boy

I like how Nobz are portrayed in Space Marine as well. They are gigantic, strong and hardy, but if he is allowed to focus a Space Marine can still reliably defeat one in melee - he just needs time to interrupt or dodge its swings and hit back repeatedly.

However, odds quickly turn grim if it is more than one Nob (in which case they will overwhelm the Marine as they are depriving him of space to dodge, and he can't counter all of their attacks at once), or if he is taking heavy fire from other sources while fighting.

Normally being outnumbered is not really a problem for Marines in melee, when facing enemies like boyz or IG. They can just dodge anyway as if nothing happened, and if they happen to dodge onto an enemy who tried to impede his movement, then the enemy will just get crushed in the process and it's a free kill. Or he can just not dodge, in which case most mundane attacks will just bounce off the plating anyway.

Big enemies like Nobz make this harder though. They are too big and tough for him to dodge onto them, so they can quickly remove his space. He also can't just ignore their attacks - nobz are ridiculously strong and the blunt force of their attacks can damage the Astartes even if it does not break his armour.

Titus is rather *ahem* Heterodox with the type of Ultramarines who are handed a copy of the HOLY CODEX THAT CONTAINS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW NEVERMIND GULLIMAN'S OWN WORDS ON THE SUBJECT LOYAL ULTRAMARINE and told to memorize it, though.

I doubt a conformist like- say, Leandros- would be as willing to engage a Nob in single melee combat as willingly. To a "orthodox" smurf, that's tantamount to suicide- not that I'd blame them for that sentiment.

 TedNugent wrote:
Ork Warboss > Space Marine

Ork Nob = Space Marine
Space Marine > Ork Boy

This seems about right

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Titus is rather *ahem* Heterodox with the type of Ultramarines who are handed a copy of the HOLY CODEX THAT CONTAINS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW NEVERMIND GULLIMAN'S OWN WORDS ON THE SUBJECT LOYAL ULTRAMARINE and told to memorize it, though.

I doubt a conformist like- say, Leandros- would be as willing to engage a Nob in single melee combat as willingly. To a "orthodox" smurf, that's tantamount to suicide- not that I'd blame them for that sentiment.

Nobs simply won't die to gunfire in Space Marine, I think that's pretty realistic having to expend like 3-4 bolter clips to take one down but I'd think the Codex would recognize attacking a Nob from afar with a Bolter is pretty dumb.

Aim for the head and they don't take too long dying.

I doubt a Space Marine would have much trouble landing headshots - as a gun platform he can absorb some serious kickback and with that much strength he provides a lot of stability to the aim. Not to mention the, you know, long and constant training and experience with guns.

Orks have been known for living without their heads for a decent amount of time, and can get it reattached by a dok

No, the head continues living a short time if removed, and they die soon anyway even if it is transplanted.

But the body dies without the head.

The fluff is very specific, if a painboy reaches the head and body in time it can be reattached and the Ork can continue fighting. Although just like Necron don't rise from the dead from animation protocol and get feel no pain instead even if the fluff says otherwise, the same effect is in play when a painboy is within 12" of orks. Their own 'reanimation protocol' is also represented by a feel no pain roll.

I'm an Ork player and I too agree that a solo Boy vs a Space Marine will lose. Space Marines are Human's elite forces, boyz aren't Ork's elite forces. Orks are a horde army just like the IG/AM and an Ork is more comparable to one of them. If they both stayed still and shot it out at each other the Guard has a better chance of winning, if they go into melee the Ork has a better chance of winning. If you want Ork's racial elite troops look no further then Nobz.. But in the end the dice can rule the day if many dice are brought to the table for that turn. It's nice when a pack of grots slip in a wound and removes a Terminator from the board and more then pays for itself right there.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
The fluff is very specific, if a painboy reaches the head and body in time it can be reattached and the Ork can continue fighting.

I have the codex right here. Note the 'before death sets in.' at the end of the sentence where it's mentioned.

Nevertheless, the very fact that an ork can even have a chance of going on after decapitation shows how resilient an ork is. I mean, they can get cut in half, and then rip a man's leg off with one arm, proceeding to beat the man to death with their leg. In a one on one fight, a space marine will kill a boy 9/10 times, but orks don't come in one on one fights, and the orks are still insanely resistant to damage. As a species designed only for war, they have to be.

Note:I'm only talking about fluff here, not the tabletop game

 ProwlerPC wrote:
The fluff is very specific, if a painboy reaches the head and body in time it can be reattached and the Ork can continue fighting.

I bolded and underlined my caveat for you. Does humans have any time span to get their head reattached to actually have an ingame effect? No it's an instant death. But again fluff isn't always translated well to game mechanics which was the other caveat I put in.

I have the Codex too.

If this was an argument about game mechanics and not fluff then most arguments fail since grots have killed termies and IG have killed Warbosses. Dice ftw.