So, I've been away for awhile and I didn't think to ask this earlier when the Rulebook FAQ came out. Anyway, here's the question:

Rulebook FAQ wrote:Q: Can I choose to make a Snap Shot rather than a normal shot?
(p13)
A: No.

If a unit moves and has a Psycannon (without Relentless), may they fire the Heavy profile as Snap Shots?

There seem to be two ways to look at this:
1) Yes. You choose to fire with the heavy profile, and thus must fire snap shots. (p51 "If a model carrying a Heavy weapon moved in the preceding Movement phase, he can fire it in the Shooting phase but only as Snap Shots.")
2) No. Choosing to fire the heavy profile is equivalent (rules-wise) to choosing to make a snap shot rather than a normal shot. (FAQ)

What does YMDC think?

If your models have moved you 'may' elect to use the 2 shot profile and fire at full ballistic skill or the 4 shot profile and fire via the snapshot rule; unless the model wielding it is in terminator armor. (in which case you have to use the latter profile, not that there would likely be any detriment to doing so as they have relentless by default)

You may elect to fire 'any' heavy weapon as a snapshot provided you are not otherwise prevented from doing so by some other rule and the psycannon is no exception; even though it has an alternate mode of fire.

The way the FAQ reads, I think it's option two. Assuming wearing PA and not relentless, you are given two modes of firing. One if you stand still, and one if you move. If you move, that profile is now the "normal" shot, with the other profile requiring a snap shot. The rulebook faq is then pretty clear on that.

Sigmundr wrote:
The way the FAQ reads, I think it's option two. Assuming wearing PA and not relentless, you are given two modes of firing. One if you stand still, and one if you move. If you move, that profile is now the "normal" shot, with the other profile requiring a snap shot. The rulebook faq is then pretty clear on that.

That's what you suppose but in the RAW (FAQ included), nothing prevents you from choosing the heavy mode, it only prevents you from intentionally fire snapshot in a way you would normally fire at full BS (e.g. you wear a termi armor and you want to shoot snapshots with you heavy after moving for an obscure reason)

I say its option 1.

The Psycannon can be either Heavy or Assault. You choose when firing it.

It doesn't matter if choosing one would force you to snap shot. Its not a concious choice.

If it was then shooting at a Flyer would be illegal as you would be choosing to fire under circumstances forcing you to snap shot.

Can someone enlighten me as to the purpose of this FAQ ruling except in a situation such as this? This seems the most directly applicable application for that question/answer which would lead me to say: "No, the FAQ clearly says you cannot choose to instead snapfire the psycannon."

jms40k wrote:
Can someone enlighten me as to the purpose of this FAQ ruling except in a situation such as this? This seems the most directly applicable application for that question/answer which would lead me to say: "No, the FAQ clearly says you cannot choose to instead snapfire the psycannon."

Tesla weapons on vehicles. Electing to only fire snapshots means you only hit on 6's, which are also those that generate 2 more hits, which could be situationally useful. That's the main example that comes to my mind, anyways. Other uses would be on something like ranger sniper rifles if you want to maximize the AP1 shots you get and are twinlinked via diviniations primaris, or are trying to maximize precision shots on character weapons, or anything that gives you an additional effect on a hit roll of a 6.

And as always since it's GW, it may just be a fairly useless/redundant FAQ answer, of which there are many.

Target wrote:

jms40k wrote:
Can someone enlighten me as to the purpose of this FAQ ruling except in a situation such as this? This seems the most directly applicable application for that question/answer which would lead me to say: "No, the FAQ clearly says you cannot choose to instead snapfire the psycannon."

Tesla weapons on vehicles. Electing to only fire snapshots means you only hit on 6's, which are also those that generate 2 more hits, which could be situationally useful. That's the main example that comes to my mind, anyways. Other uses would be on something like ranger sniper rifles if you want to maximize the AP1 shots you get and are twinlinked via diviniations primaris, or are trying to maximize precision shots on character weapons, or anything that gives you an additional effect on a hit roll of a 6.

And as always since it's GW, it may just be a fairly useless/redundant FAQ answer, of which there are many.

But you get Tesla hits/Sniper hits on 6's anyway - they don't have to be snap shots. Electing to Snap Shot will only ever reduce your likelihood of hitting unless you're also going to throw more dice, like in this situation.

I think it's pretty blatant that you can't choose to use the Heavy mode if you moved, because you'd be choosing to Snap Fire.

The codex allows you to choose between heavy 4 and assault 2.

You are not choosing to snap shot, you are choosing the firing mode for your weapon.

The main reason for the FAQ is because if you have re-rolls and you want rending on a sniper rifle, you want to roll as many 6's as possible, because the other hits that are not rending will not do much to a 2+ save unit.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The codex allows you to choose between heavy 4 and assault 2.

You are not choosing to snap shot, you are choosing the firing mode for your weapon.

And choosing Heavy is exactly the same as choosing to Snap Shot (if you've moved).

The main reason for the FAQ is because if you have re-rolls and you want rending on a sniper rifle, you want to roll as many 6's as possible, because the other hits that are not rending will not do much to a 2+ save unit.

That's your assumption. The same reasoning applies to choosing to use Heavy if you've moved.

rigeld2 wrote:

Target wrote:

jms40k wrote:
Can someone enlighten me as to the purpose of this FAQ ruling except in a situation such as this? This seems the most directly applicable application for that question/answer which would lead me to say: "No, the FAQ clearly says you cannot choose to instead snapfire the psycannon."

Tesla weapons on vehicles. Electing to only fire snapshots means you only hit on 6's, which are also those that generate 2 more hits, which could be situationally useful. That's the main example that comes to my mind, anyways. Other uses would be on something like ranger sniper rifles if you want to maximize the AP1 shots you get and are twinlinked via diviniations primaris, or are trying to maximize precision shots on character weapons, or anything that gives you an additional effect on a hit roll of a 6.

And as always since it's GW, it may just be a fairly useless/redundant FAQ answer, of which there are many.

But you get Tesla hits/Sniper hits on 6's anyway - they don't have to be snap shots. Electing to Snap Shot will only ever reduce your likelihood of hitting unless you're also going to throw more dice, like in this situation.

I think it's pretty blatant that you can't choose to use the Heavy mode if you moved, because you'd be choosing to Snap Fire.

As I said in my original - it only works when combined with rerolls. Snap shots force you to reroll all non 6's, and so maximize your 6's. Tesla weapons are twinlinked, and pretty much all of the other examples are able to combined with the ever present prescience (rerolls to hit for a unit)

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The codex allows you to choose between heavy 4 and assault 2.

You are not choosing to snap shot, you are choosing the firing mode for your weapon.

And choosing Heavy is exactly the same as choosing to Snap Shot (if you've moved).

No it is not.

It is choosing to fire 4 shots instead of 2.

You are not choosing to Snap shot, that is an unfortunate side effect of choosing to get 4 shots. (not that many people would want to fire 4 snap shots instead of 2 regular ones anyway so it is not likely to come up much).

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The codex allows you to choose between heavy 4 and assault 2.

You are not choosing to snap shot, you are choosing the firing mode for your weapon.

And choosing Heavy is exactly the same as choosing to Snap Shot (if you've moved).

No it is not.

It is choosing to fire 4 shots instead of 2.

You are not choosing to Snap shot, that is an unfortunate side effect of choosing to get 4 shots. (not that many people would want to fire 4 snap shots instead of 2 regular ones anyway so it is not likely to come up much).

It actually comes up more then you would think, whenever you're firing psycannons at fliers, you pretty much always just go ahead and move as you need 6's regardless

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The codex allows you to choose between heavy 4 and assault 2.

You are not choosing to snap shot, you are choosing the firing mode for your weapon.

And choosing Heavy is exactly the same as choosing to Snap Shot (if you've moved).

No it is not.

It is choosing to fire 4 shots instead of 2.

You are not choosing to Snap shot, that is an unfortunate side effect of choosing to get 4 shots. (not that many people would want to fire 4 snap shots instead of 2 regular ones anyway so it is not likely to come up much).

You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The codex allows you to choose between heavy 4 and assault 2.

You are not choosing to snap shot, you are choosing the firing mode for your weapon.

And choosing Heavy is exactly the same as choosing to Snap Shot (if you've moved).

No it is not.

It is choosing to fire 4 shots instead of 2.

You are not choosing to Snap shot, that is an unfortunate side effect of choosing to get 4 shots. (not that many people would want to fire 4 snap shots instead of 2 regular ones anyway so it is not likely to come up much).

You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

You may not elect to fire snap shots versus normal, so for something like the re-roll examples you would be unallowed, however, in the case of psycannons, the end result is you're firing snap shots, but that's not the original choice.

Per the rulebook page 51:

"Some weapons can be used in different ways, representing different power settings or types of ammo. Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn."

So I'm allowed to choose to use my psycannon as a heavy weapon each turn - permission granted

Then, same page, under heavy weapons:

"If a model carrying a heavy weapon moved in the preceding movement phase, he can fire in the shooting phase but only as snap shots"

So I'm forced to fire snap shots, I'm not choosing to.

That's the difference between the two examples, the end result may be the same, but since the psycannon has 2 firing modes, which are elected before you fire, you're a heavy weapon - which is now forced to fire snap shots.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The codex allows you to choose between heavy 4 and assault 2.

You are not choosing to snap shot, you are choosing the firing mode for your weapon.

And choosing Heavy is exactly the same as choosing to Snap Shot (if you've moved).

No it is not.

It is choosing to fire 4 shots instead of 2.

You are not choosing to Snap shot, that is an unfortunate side effect of choosing to get 4 shots. (not that many people would want to fire 4 snap shots instead of 2 regular ones anyway so it is not likely to come up much).

You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

In that case you are never able to fire at a Zooming Flyer (without Skyfire) as you are choosing a target that requires Snap Shots and you cannot choose to fire Snap Shots.

rigeld2 wrote:
You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

So you can never move and choose to fire a heavy weapon, as you would be choosing to snap shot?

Target wrote:
You may not elect to fire snap shots versus normal, so for something like the re-roll examples you would be unallowed, however, in the case of psycannons, the end result is you're firing snap shots, but that's not the original choice.

While I understand that many YMDC arguments come down to semantics, I feel the need to point out that this is semantics.

Per the rulebook page 51:

"Some weapons can be used in different ways, representing different power settings or types of ammo. Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn."

So I'm allowed to choose to use my psycannon as a heavy weapon each turn - permission granted

The quoted rule says there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each. The psycannon does not have a separate line in the weapon's profile for each. Permission not granted with this rule.

So I'm forced to fire snap shots, I'm not choosing to.

No, really - you're choosing to fire snap shots so you're not penalized by being forced to resolve as snap shots and you can get 2 extra dice out of the resulting attack.

That's the difference between the two examples, the end result may be the same, but since the psycannon has 2 firing modes, which are elected before you fire, you're a heavy weapon - which is now forced to fire snap shots.

It's not "now forced" it's forced as soon as you move. Which means when you elect to fire the Heavy weapon you're choosing to fire a snap shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

So you can never move and choose to fire a heavy weapon, as you would be choosing to snap shot?

Do you have the option to make a normal shot in that case? See, I figured you'd read the FAQ and my post in context and not try to strawman me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The codex allows you to choose between heavy 4 and assault 2.

You are not choosing to snap shot, you are choosing the firing mode for your weapon.

And choosing Heavy is exactly the same as choosing to Snap Shot (if you've moved).

No it is not.

It is choosing to fire 4 shots instead of 2.

You are not choosing to Snap shot, that is an unfortunate side effect of choosing to get 4 shots. (not that many people would want to fire 4 snap shots instead of 2 regular ones anyway so it is not likely to come up much).

You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

In that case you are never able to fire at a Zooming Flyer (without Skyfire) as you are choosing a target that requires Snap Shots and you cannot choose to fire Snap Shots.

Seriously - context. Read the FAQ, read my post in the context of the FAQ. Understand. Thanks. edit: also, you are not choosing to fire snap shots in this case, you are choosing to fire normally and your shots are resolved as snap shots.

If you choose to fire in a mode after moving that will always result in the same result, you are effectively choosing that result. It seems to interpret things any other way is splitting hais here.

rigeld2 wrote:

Target wrote:
You may not elect to fire snap shots versus normal, so for something like the re-roll examples you would be unallowed, however, in the case of psycannons, the end result is you're firing snap shots, but that's not the original choice.

While I understand that many YMDC arguments come down to semantics, I feel the need to point out that this is semantics.

Per the rulebook page 51:

"Some weapons can be used in different ways, representing different power settings or types of ammo. Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn."

So I'm allowed to choose to use my psycannon as a heavy weapon each turn - permission granted

The quoted rule says there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each. The psycannon does not have a separate line in the weapon's profile for each. Permission not granted with this rule.

So I'm forced to fire snap shots, I'm not choosing to.

No, really - you're choosing to fire snap shots so you're not penalized by being forced to resolve as snap shots and you can get 2 extra dice out of the resulting attack.

That's the difference between the two examples, the end result may be the same, but since the psycannon has 2 firing modes, which are elected before you fire, you're a heavy weapon - which is now forced to fire snap shots.

It's not "now forced" it's forced as soon as you move. Which means when you elect to fire the Heavy weapon you're choosing to fire a snap shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

So you can never move and choose to fire a heavy weapon, as you would be choosing to snap shot?

Do you have the option to make a normal shot in that case? See, I figured you'd read the FAQ and my post in context and not try to strawman me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The codex allows you to choose between heavy 4 and assault 2.

You are not choosing to snap shot, you are choosing the firing mode for your weapon.

And choosing Heavy is exactly the same as choosing to Snap Shot (if you've moved).

No it is not.

It is choosing to fire 4 shots instead of 2.

You are not choosing to Snap shot, that is an unfortunate side effect of choosing to get 4 shots. (not that many people would want to fire 4 snap shots instead of 2 regular ones anyway so it is not likely to come up much).

You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

In that case you are never able to fire at a Zooming Flyer (without Skyfire) as you are choosing a target that requires Snap Shots and you cannot choose to fire Snap Shots.

Seriously - context. Read the FAQ, read my post in the context of the FAQ. Understand. Thanks. edit: also, you are not choosing to fire snap shots in this case, you are choosing to fire normally and your shots are resolved as snap shots.

It's not semantics - it's a distinct difference. You elect to use a heavy weapon, down the rode the snap shot thing comes up. The point you tried to make of "different lines" because the text is on the same line, now THATS some semantics, and silly as you know.

The previous posters point stands, if you move a heavy weapon, you are choosing to fire snap shots. So you may never move with a model equipped with a heavy weapon and still fire, because your choice to move is electing to fire snap shots, after all, you have the option not to, you could stay still.

There's a reason every tournament and every GT i've seen plays it the "you can fire in heavy mode when moving" way...

Target wrote:
It's not semantics - it's a distinct difference. You elect to use a heavy weapon, down the rode the snap shot thing comes up. The point you tried to make of "different lines" because the text is on the same line, now THATS some semantics, and silly as you know.

It's not silly at all - it's absolutely what the rules say.

The previous posters point stands, if you move a heavy weapon, you are choosing to fire snap shots. So you may never move with a model equipped with a heavy weapon and still fire, because your choice to move is electing to fire snap shots, after all, you have the option not to, you could stay still.

No, that's not what the FAQ says at all. Nice attempt to bring a straw man argument into it though. The previous poster's point was wrong, as I pointed out.

There's a reason every tournament and every GT i've seen plays it the "you can fire in heavy mode when moving" way...

Yeah, because there's no way they could possibly be wrong.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

So you can never move and choose to fire a heavy weapon, as you would be choosing to snap shot?

Do you have the option to make a normal shot in that case? See, I figured you'd read the FAQ and my post in context and not try to strawman me.

I meant for Psycannons. if you select Heavy 4 you do not have the option to make normal shots, as you have moved with a heavy weapon.

You do not have a choice between 2 normal or 4 snap shots.

You have a choice between Assault 2 and Heavy 4. Please note the difference.

The FAQ only forbids you taking snap shots when firing a weapon at full BS.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

So you can never move and choose to fire a heavy weapon, as you would be choosing to snap shot?

Do you have the option to make a normal shot in that case? See, I figured you'd read the FAQ and my post in context and not try to strawman me.

I meant for Psycannons. if you select Heavy 4 you do not have the option to make normal shots, as you have moved with a heavy weapon.

You do not have a choice between 2 normal or 4 snap shots.

You have a choice between Assault 2 and Heavy 4. Please note the difference.

The FAQ only forbids you taking snap shots when firing a weapon at full BS.

Correct - you would never have the choice to move and fire Heavy with a Psycannon unless you had Terminator armor (in which case you could not fire Assault per the Codex).
And that's not what the FAQ forbids.

rigeld2 wrote:

Target wrote:
It's not semantics - it's a distinct difference. You elect to use a heavy weapon, down the rode the snap shot thing comes up. The point you tried to make of "different lines" because the text is on the same line, now THATS some semantics, and silly as you know.

It's not silly at all - it's absolutely what the rules say.

The previous posters point stands, if you move a heavy weapon, you are choosing to fire snap shots. So you may never move with a model equipped with a heavy weapon and still fire, because your choice to move is electing to fire snap shots, after all, you have the option not to, you could stay still.

No, that's not what the FAQ says at all. Nice attempt to bring a straw man argument into it though. The previous poster's point was wrong, as I pointed out.

There's a reason every tournament and every GT i've seen plays it the "you can fire in heavy mode when moving" way...

Yeah, because there's no way they could possibly be wrong.

The previous posters point was wrong in your opinion. It wasn't actually wrong, however, it's a good example of why your argument against the psycannon isn't valid.

Q: Can I choose to make a Snap Shot rather than a normal shot?
(p13)
A: No.


That's clear - and that HW trooper CAN make a normal shot, if he doesn't move. So he elected to move, he can't fire a snap shot as he would have been able to make a normal shot. And if you don't agree with forebidding snapshots to moving heavy weapons - then you see my issue with your argument. The psycannon is both a heavy weapon AND an assault weapon, as I quoted the rulebook text, each turn you choose which profile to use, and it doesn't say when. Then I choose at the beginning of the turn I'm using it as a heavy weapon, it's a heavy weapon just like a heavy bolter. I moved. I must fire snapshots, it's not a choice.

Target wrote:
Q: Can I choose to make a Snap Shot rather than a normal shot?
(p13)
A: No.


That's clear - and that HW trooper CAN make a normal shot, if he doesn't move.

The FAQ isn't related to moving, it's related to shooting.

So he elected to move, he can't fire a snap shot as he would have been able to make a normal shot.

There's nothing in the FAQ restricting movement, only shooting choices.

And if you don't agree with forebidding snapshots to moving heavy weapons - then you see my issue with your argument. The psycannon is both a heavy weapon AND an assault weapon, as I quoted the rulebook text, each turn you choose which profile to use, and it doesn't say when. Then I choose at the beginning of the turn I'm using it as a heavy weapon, it's a heavy weapon just like a heavy bolter. I moved. I must fire snapshots, it's not a choice.

Page 51 doesn't apply as there are not separate lines for the weapon (like there are for Missile Launchers for example).
So we look at the codex. The weapon can be fired as either Heavy or Assault - so you pick when you fire. Which is well after movement, not before.
Codex > BRB.

But the FAQ does not restrict you from choosing Heavy 4 over Assault 2.

It just restricts you from choosing to make a Snap Shot rather than a normal shot.

You can not make a normal shot after movement with a Heavy 4 weapon.

 DeathReaper wrote:
But the FAQ does not restrict you from choosing Heavy 4 over Assault 2.

It just restricts you from choosing to make a Snap Shot rather than a normal shot.

You can not make a normal shot after movement with a Heavy 4 weapon.

But you have a choice to make a normal shot with an Assault 2 weapon rather than a Snap Shot with a Heavy 4 weapon.
By choosing the Heavy 4 you are choosing to make a Snap Shot - you cannot unlink the one from the other if you've moved.

Why would you want the 4 shots at BS1 when you can have 2 shots at BS 4?

 kronk wrote:
Why would you want the 4 shots at BS1 when you can have 2 shots at BS 4?

To shoot at flyers.

Ahh... Nice.

rigeld2 wrote:
You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

So can an IG HW Team move and fire their heavy weapon as snap shots? Given that they also have a lasgun and could shoot it instead? Pretty much the same situation, IMO.

I believe the FAQ ruling was that you cannot elect to take Snap Shots in a situation where you would otherwise get normal shots, in the case of a weapon with only one profile.

Weapons with 2 profiles are free to switch between them when shooting, then additional restrictions will apply to whichever profile they choose to shoot.

 don_mondo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

So can an IG HW Team move and fire their heavy weapon as snap shots? Given that they also have a lasgun and could shoot it instead? Pretty much the same situation, IMO.

Except they don't have a lasgun as well iirc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I believe the FAQ ruling was that you cannot elect to take Snap Shots in a situation where you would otherwise get normal shots, in the case of a weapon with only one profile.

Citation needed for the bold. Also, Psycannons only have one weapon profile.

Weapons with 2 profiles are free to switch between them when shooting, then additional restrictions will apply to whichever profile they choose to shoot.

And by choosing to shoot Heavy after moving you're choosing to shoot Snap Shots instead of Normal.

rigeld2 wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

So can an IG HW Team move and fire their heavy weapon as snap shots? Given that they also have a lasgun and could shoot it instead? Pretty much the same situation, IMO.

Except they don't have a lasgun as well iirc.

IG HWT's do have a lasgun as well as a heavy weapon.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

So can an IG HW Team move and fire their heavy weapon as snap shots? Given that they also have a lasgun and could shoot it instead? Pretty much the same situation, IMO.

Except they don't have a lasgun as well iirc.

IG HWT's do have a lasgun as well as a heavy weapon.

Then no, that FAQ would also remove the choice from an IG HWT.

And you do not see how wrong that is?

rigeld2 wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

So can an IG HW Team move and fire their heavy weapon as snap shots? Given that they also have a lasgun and could shoot it instead? Pretty much the same situation, IMO.

Except they don't have a lasgun as well iirc.

Pretty sure you are wrong, but OK, how about a Space Marine then? Does he lose his bolt pistol when he takes a heavy weapon? Point being, choosing the weapon or the firing mode is NOT choosing to fire via snap shot, neither is moving prior to shooting. Otherwise, as others have pointed out, your argument falls apart when it comes to moving and shooting a heavy weapon, which can only be done as a snap shot. Choosing to move and then fire the heavy is not choosing to fire snap shot, the snap shot is forced on you by the movement/heavy combo. Well, the psycannon is the same thing, in spite of being a single weapon that has two fire modes. You choose heavy and then snap shot is forced on you. Personally, I'm all for anything that goes against GK, but even I don't see any support for your argument.

 DeathReaper wrote:
And you do not see how wrong that is?

Do I think it's slightly silly? Maybe.
Does that matter? Not at all.

Find permission to make a choice to make a Snap Shot.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And you do not see how wrong that is?

Do I think it's slightly silly? Maybe.
Does that matter? Not at all.

Find permission to make a choice to make a Snap Shot.

GK Codex says you can choose Assault 2 or Heavy 4. (This is not choosing to make a Snap Shot).

The FAQ only says you can not make snap shots instead of normal shots.

You can not make normal shots with a Psycannon firing at Heavy 4 so the FAQ does not come into play.

Rigeld, I have a squad of Fire Dragons. 6"away is a CCB. 6" away is a Nightscythe.

Am I allowed to fire at the Nightscythe? Why?

rigeld2 wrote:

Target wrote:
Q: Can I choose to make a Snap Shot rather than a normal shot?
(p13)
A: No.


That's clear - and that HW trooper CAN make a normal shot, if he doesn't move.

The FAQ isn't related to moving, it's related to shooting.

So he elected to move, he can't fire a snap shot as he would have been able to make a normal shot.

There's nothing in the FAQ restricting movement, only shooting choices.

And if you don't agree with forebidding snapshots to moving heavy weapons - then you see my issue with your argument. The psycannon is both a heavy weapon AND an assault weapon, as I quoted the rulebook text, each turn you choose which profile to use, and it doesn't say when. Then I choose at the beginning of the turn I'm using it as a heavy weapon, it's a heavy weapon just like a heavy bolter. I moved. I must fire snapshots, it's not a choice.

Page 51 doesn't apply as there are not separate lines for the weapon (like there are for Missile Launchers for example).
So we look at the codex. The weapon can be fired as either Heavy or Assault - so you pick when you fire. Which is well after movement, not before.
Codex > BRB.

To sum up pretty much where we're at:

Stance 1:

-The psycannon has assault and heavy modes, you chose which profile you use to fire a weapon each turn (doesn't state when, just each turn)
-You chose Heavy
-You are forced to fire snap shots, it's not a choice

Stance 2:

-You could have chosen to use assault mode instead of heavy, as such you are choosing to fire snap shots, which the FAQ does not allow (can a model chose to fire snap shots - no)

The disagreement:

In stance 1 you are not choosing to fire snap shots, you are choosing which mode to fire in, which you are allowed to do by RAW. This choice forces you to only fire snap shots. Stance 2 - That choice is the same thing as choosing fire snap shots, so you cant choose which firing mode you use (even though the book says you can choose the mode each turn....)

But - this is going nowhere, so unless someone has new inputs, we may as well drop it. Neither side is coming up with anything new, and I think this circle has been run enough.

 Blood and Slaughter wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Why would you want the 4 shots at BS1 when you can have 2 shots at BS 4?

To shoot at flyers.

I don't think this comes into play in this discussion. You can't fire normal shots at fliers (unless you have skyfire), so the FAQ isn't relevant.

jms40k wrote:

 Blood and Slaughter wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Why would you want the 4 shots at BS1 when you can have 2 shots at BS 4?

To shoot at flyers.

I don't think this comes into play in this discussion. You can't fire normal shots at fliers (unless you have skyfire), so the FAQ isn't relevant

Not true - in fact this is absolutely relevant.
You fire any kind of shot at a flier but it must be resolved as a snap shot. Therefore shooting a snapshot at a flier is no disadvantage. So choosing Heavy is only an advantage. The fact that its an advantage isn't relevant to my position, but is relevant to the situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:
Rigeld, I have a squad of Fire Dragons. 6"away is a CCB. 6" away is a Nightscythe.

Am I allowed to fire at the Nightscythe? Why?

Yes, because you're firing normal shots that are resolved as snap shots.

I'm surprised that no one thought up that maybe someone would want to fire snap shots with their weapons to maybe not kill enough of the enemy to fail a charge subsequently.

You still want to kill like 1-2 of the enemy so that you succeed in the fighting but don't want to kill say 5 guys or you'd fail your charge. I think that's what the FAQ was addressing.

In that scenario you can always just opt not to shoot with some models.

Okay then. So i move my Grey Knight squad. I choose to fire my psycannon as a heavy 4, rending weapon.
At this point, am i choosing to make a snapfire? Because this would be the time at which i would have to declare how i was firing at my opponent. The FAQ declares that i am not allowed to willingly fire snapshots. However, i am not firing snapshots. I am firing a Heavy 4, rending psycannon. I declare that this is my mode of fire.
I HAVE ALREADY DECLARED HOW THE WEAPON WILL BE FIRED.
Now the next bit is important. Now that i am firing a heavy weapon after having moved, the shots are resolved as snapshots.
Now, did i ever choose to fire snapshots? No. The rules forced me to. I choose to fire a heavy weapon after having moved. That's all I AS THE PLAYER HAVE CHOSEN. The rules now make my shots snapfire shots.
This is RAW legal. Not once did i choose to fire snapshots. I chose to fire a heavy weapon. That's all i have done. And to say that "No, you are choosing to fire snapshots because that is the end result," is simply wrong.
I repeat it once more. The FAQ forbids players from choosing to fire snapshots. But never once did i make that choice.
Not trying to seem condescending or rude here, but this seems very simple.

Xca|iber wrote:
Q: Can I choose to make a Snap Shot rather than a normal shot? (p13)
A: No.

"Under certain circumstances, models can only fire Snap Shots - ... If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then it's Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.", p.13

Basic rules don't allow a model to voluntarily reduce its BS, so this FAQ is not addressing you voluntarily reducing your BS to a Snap shot. The FAQ is addressing a situation where you can choose to fire between a Snap shot and normally. Two important parts of the Snap shot definition are "under certain circumstances" and "if a model is forced to make Snap Shots..." Therefore, there must be a "certain circumstance" and the model must "be forced to make Snap shots" under this circumstance. So, a Snap shot is not a choice, but mandated by a circumstance.

So, a model must be in a situation where it can both Snap shot and fire normally at the moment the shot is taken. The psycannon situation is an example where the FAQ applies and the assault profile should be used if the model moved and was not relentless. However, firing at a flyer or SMFC, the hard to hit rule (certain circumstance) applies to both profiles, so there are no "normal" shots and the heavy weapon profile can be used.

Brian2000 wrote:
The psycannon situation is an example where the FAQ applies and the assault profile should be used if the model moved and was not relentless. However, firing at a flyer or SMFC, the hard to hit rule (certain circumstance) applies to both profiles, so there are no "normal" shots and the heavy weapon profile can be used.

No it really is not.

You do not choose to take snap shots, as you can not make regular shots with a Heavy 4 Psycannon on a PA marine that has moved.

What the FAQ is asking is "Can I choose to make a Snap Shot rather than a normal shot?"

This means I have a Psycannon and I have not moved, can I make snap shots instead of shots at full BS. The answer of course is No.

Not true. A model does not take snap shots against flyers - they're simply all resolved as snap shots. There's a difference.
Edit - directed at Brian, ninjaed by DR

So, as a Dark Angels player, what half of the posts on here are saying is that I would NEVER be able to fire a heavy weapon if my marines moved.

All of my marines have pistols, which they could shoot at full BS instead.

I do believe this argument is ridiculous. You are trying to restrict people from using a weapon upgrade that they paid for.
Yes, this is completely relevent to the argument at hand, because if one is true, then so is the other.

 nolzur wrote:
So, as a Dark Angels player, what half of the posts on here are saying is that I would NEVER be able to fire a heavy weapon if my marines moved.

All of my marines have pistols, which they could shoot at full BS instead.

If you're within pistol range, yes.

I do believe this argument is ridiculous. You are trying to restrict people from using a weapon upgrade that they paid for.
Yes, this is completely relevent to the argument at hand, because if one is true, then so is the other.

Send the question in to GW for an FAQ. As it stands I don't see another way out of this RAW.

I don't think it's intended for Psycannons to get free extra shots against Flyers, but whatever.

I tend to think this was FAQ to prevent people with special rules like rending, Tesla, sniper, precision shot from twin linking their guns and claiming 1-5 as a miss.

You all are missing the point of the rule

This has got to be the most paper thin argument I've ever heard.
So now, even though this was changed in the rulebook, I cannot move and fire my heavy weapons because to do so would be to choose to snapfire?

I cannot overwatch because to do so would be to choose to snapshot?

I cannot snapshot at all because to do so would be to choose to snapshot?

See where this argument is falling apart?

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
This has got to be the most paper thin argument I've ever heard.
So now, even though this was changed in the rulebook, I cannot move and fire my heavy weapons because to do so would be to choose to snapfire?

No, you're allowed to as long as you don't have another option.

I cannot overwatch because to do so would be to choose to snapshot?

Wrong - the FAQ specifies that you're not allowed to choose to snapshot if you have the option not to. Do you have the option to not snapshot if you're overwatching?

I cannot snapshot at all because to do so would be to choose to snapshot?

Vindicare-Obsession, FAQ. FAQ, Vindicare-Obsession. It'd be great if you read the FAQ instead of assuming you knew what it said. From this post it's obvious you didn't actually read it.

See where this argument is falling apart?

Yes, it's obvious where your argument failed.

Uhm he was proving a point. Not actually making an argument. You apparently missed the sarcasm oozing out of that post.

bfdhud wrote:
Uhm he was proving a point. Not actually making an argument. You apparently missed the sarcasm oozing out of that post.

No, I got it completely.
His point was completely wrong. None of his points, even sarcastically, are valid if you actually read the FAQ.

This whole thread is clearly Grey Knight propaganda trying to be even more OP by moving 6 and shooting heavy 4 snap shots.

 Goat wrote:
This whole thread is clearly Grey Knight propaganda trying to be even more OP by moving 6 and shooting heavy 4 snap shots.

Yea, do not assign motive when none exists.

It's not exactly a long FAQ entry with lots of explanations of how to handle various situations:

Q: Can I choose to make a Snap Shot rather than a normal shot?
(p13)
A: No.

So, you can't simply choose to Snap Shot. Apparently the question in this thread is, based on this FAQ entry, can you make a decision prior to rolling to-hit that results in firing a Snap Shot instead of a normal shot, and if not, how far prior to rolling to-hit are your choices restricted?

By my reading of this thread, rigeld2 is drawing a line at the shooting phase.

I don't see that explained in the relevant FAQ entry, and I've read it in its entirety several times.

AS above.

You are not choosing to snap shot, you are choosing the firing mode

The rules then decide whether that shot is "snap" or not.

As nos said,
I am forced to fire snapshot if I choose the heavy option. I am not choosing to snapshot.

What you are saying is exactly what I said in my previous post. By snapshotting anything, you must've chosen to snapshot at one point, and that argument is wrong.

Call it what you will, strawman, argumentum ad absudem, whatever, but that is one thing that I will not budge on under any circumstance.

I can't choose to fire my gun as a snap shot. If some other choice is made that requires Mr to shoot as snap shots that is perfectly fine.

In other words heavy can move then fire.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
By snapshotting anything, you must've chosen to snapshot at one point, and that argument is wrong.

And there's no problem with that if you don't have the option to fire normally.
Pretending that I'm saying it's impossible to ever snap shot is false. I'm not, and the FAQ isn't.

You dont have the option to fire normally; you have fired as heavy after moving, meaning you MUST snapshot

the choice is in the firing mode, nothing else. The FAQ does not interact at that point.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You dont have the option to fire normally; you have fired as heavy after moving, meaning you MUST snapshot

the choice is in the firing mode, nothing else. The FAQ does not interact at that point.

You do have the option to fire normally - you're just opting not to choose that option. The FAQ doesn't give you that option.
Page 58 in the GK codex says that the weapon may be fired as Heavy or Assault - meaning that the decision isn't made until you actually shoot, well after you've moved.
Choosing to fire Heavy means you are choosing to fire Snap Shots, by definition, if you've moved.

Choosing the Heavy mode does not make you choose snap shots. The Snap Shots are forced upon you after you choose which profile the Psycannon will use.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Choosing the Heavy mode does not make you choose snap shots. The Snap Shots are forced upon you after you choose which profile the Psycannon will use.

The PA model moves.
It comes time to fire. This isn't a separate firing profile - it's one weapon that can shoot either Heavy 4 or Assault 2 (by the definition in the BRB, that's not 2 profiles).
You fire the weapon - if you fire Heavy, you snap fire. Therefore choosing to fire Heavy is choosing Snap Fire.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Choosing the Heavy mode does not make you choose snap shots. The Snap Shots are forced upon you after you choose which profile the Psycannon will use.

The PA model moves.
It comes time to fire. This isn't a separate firing profile - it's one weapon that can shoot either Heavy 4 or Assault 2 (by the definition in the BRB, that's not 2 profiles).
You fire the weapon - if you fire Heavy, you snap fire. Therefore choosing to fire Heavy is choosing Snap Fire.

Fixing the last line for you:
You fire the weapon - if you choose to fire in Heavy mode, the rules force you to fire as snap fire. Therefor choosing to fire Heavy is not choosing snap fire.

 don_mondo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Choosing the Heavy mode does not make you choose snap shots. The Snap Shots are forced upon you after you choose which profile the Psycannon will use.

The PA model moves.
It comes time to fire. This isn't a separate firing profile - it's one weapon that can shoot either Heavy 4 or Assault 2 (by the definition in the BRB, that's not 2 profiles).
You fire the weapon - if you fire Heavy, you snap fire. Therefore choosing to fire Heavy is choosing Snap Fire.

Fixing the last line for you:
You fire the weapon - if you choose to fire in Heavy mode, the rules force you to fire as snap fire. Therefor choosing to fire Heavy is not choosing snap fire.

Do you have the option to fire the weapon and not snap fire?

rigeld2 wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Choosing the Heavy mode does not make you choose snap shots. The Snap Shots are forced upon you after you choose which profile the Psycannon will use.

The PA model moves.
It comes time to fire. This isn't a separate firing profile - it's one weapon that can shoot either Heavy 4 or Assault 2 (by the definition in the BRB, that's not 2 profiles).
You fire the weapon - if you fire Heavy, you snap fire. Therefore choosing to fire Heavy is choosing Snap Fire.

Fixing the last line for you:
You fire the weapon - if you choose to fire in Heavy mode, the rules force you to fire as snap fire. Therefor choosing to fire Heavy is not choosing snap fire.

Do you have the option to fire the weapon and not snap fire?

Does a SM with a bolt pistol and a missile launcher have an option to fire a weapon and not snap fire?

Doesn't matter what other weapons/modes of fire you might have. You can choose to fire either weapon/mode of fire, then the rules tell you how it must be fired, normally or as snap fire.

And that's the two basic sides to this argument. So shall we get off the merry-go-round?

 don_mondo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Do you have the option to fire the weapon and not snap fire?

Does a SM with a bolt pistol and a missile launcher have an option to fire a weapon and not snap fire?

Already asked and answered.

Doesn't matter what other weapons/modes of fire you might have. You can choose to fire either weapon/mode of fire, then the rules tell you how it must be fired, normally or as snap fire.

That's your assumption. The FAQ doesn't give you that allowance.

And that's the two basic sides to this argument. So shall we get off the merry-go-round?

I've already said to send in an email. I've been told my argument is thin, weak, and wrong. I'm defending it.

The FAQ does give you that allowance, as you are not choosing to snap fire - you are choosing the fire mode / weapon you wish to use, and then the rules FORCE that fire mode on you.

There is no choice at that point, which is what the FAQ requires

The FAQ says you can not choose to snapshot when you can shoot at full BS.

If you choose to fire your Heavy weapon after you have moved, and do not have relentless, you are not choosing to fire snap shots, the snap shots are forced upon you at that point.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The FAQ says you can not choose to snapshot when you can shoot at full BS.

That's not what it says.

If you choose to fire your Heavy weapon after you have moved, and do not have relentless, you are not choosing to fire snap shots, the snap shots are forced upon you at that point.

By choosing to fire the Heavy weapon, you are choosing to fire Snap Shots.

And round and round we go. And yes, email sent off to the GW FAQ guys. We'll see if they answer it in an FAQ.

rigeld2 wrote:

If you choose to fire your Heavy weapon after you have moved, and do not have relentless, you are not choosing to fire snap shots, the snap shots are forced upon you at that point.

By choosing to fire the Heavy weapon, you are choosing to fire Snap Shots.

Yes, but only indirectly. You're not directly choosing to fire the weapon as Snap Shots, which is all that matters. The choice you're making is not to fire Snap Shots, it's to move the model, which forces Snap Shots upon you.

The FAQ does not say that you cannot make a separate choice that in turn forces you to snap fire.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The FAQ says you can not choose to snapshot when you can shoot at full BS.

That's not what it says.

Actually that is what it says, because Normal shots are shots at full BS.

Here it is again.

FAQ wrote:Q: Can I choose to make a Snap Shot rather than a normal shot?
(p13)
A: No.

You can not choose to Snap Shot rather that shoot at full BS. (Which is what a normal shot is).

rigeld2 wrote:
By choosing to fire the Heavy weapon, you are choosing to fire Snap Shots.

And by choosing to move with a heavy weapon I am choosing to fire snapshots.

By choosing to shoot at a flyer, I am choosing to fire snapshots.

You are trying to have your cake and eat it too, it dosent work like that. If I cant choose a fire mode, then I cant choose to do anything else that would force me to fire snapshots. There is nothing in the FAQ that says "You cant choose a firing mode that would make you fire snapshots but anything else you choose that would make you fire snapshots is just fine"

By choosing to snapshot at all, I am choosing to snapshot. Its that simple.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
By choosing to fire the Heavy weapon, you are choosing to fire Snap Shots.

And by choosing to move with a heavy weapon I am choosing to fire snapshots.

By choosing to shoot at a flyer, I am choosing to fire snapshots.

This is a slippery slope fallacy and really shouldn't be tolerated when we are arguing strict RAW. Movement and target selection is not being limited by this FAQ ruling or rigeld's interpretation of it. The real question for this thread is: is choosing to fire a weapon mode that requires snapshots when another option available allowed? By RAW? Probably. I wouldn't base all my hopes on it staying that way in future though.

Do not call my argument a fallacy without any evidence backing up your opinion. I will not tolerate you trying to discredit someones argument because you dont like it. My argument will be tolerated as it gives my standpoint and a number of counter points to prove it, which yours does not.

Perhaps if I explained it better,

I choose to fire heacy 4 instead of assault 2, so by regi's definition I must be choosing to snapshot. fine.

i choose to move instead of remain still, and must therefore snapshot, so again, because I had the option to stand still, by regi's definition I have chosen to snapshot.

I choose to do anything that would make me snapshot instead of not doing that thing, so am forced to snapshot. Therefore, since I had a choice, I am choosing to snapshot and the action is disallowed.

You want a RAW argument? Argue RAW and stop saying someones argument is a fallacy simply because you dont like it, especially when you dont have anything to offer as a counter point.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
i choose to move instead of remain still, and must therefore snapshot, so again, because I had the option to stand still, by regi's definition I have chosen to snapshot.

The FAQ puts no limits on your movement, only on your shooting choices. This assertion is incorrect.

I choose to do anything that would make me snapshot instead of not doing that thing, so am forced to snapshot. Therefore, since I had a choice, I am choosing to snapshot and the action is disallowed.

It's actually not as common as you're trying to make it out to be. Moving with a heavy weapon and having a backup is about the only way to trigger it - firing at fliers doesn't because those shots are resolved as snapshots, not made as snap shots.

You want a RAW argument? Argue RAW and stop saying someones argument is a fallacy simply because you dont like it, especially when you dont have anything to offer as a counter point.

He called your argument a fallacy because it was. I disproved it the other few times its been brought up in the thread as well.

The FAQ dosent put a limit on weapon modes either. By letter of the rule, if you have the capability to fire normally, you must fire normally. If I dont move I have the capability to fire normally. Tell me how that is any different from choosing a different weapon mode.

By your argument it is exactly the same.

What you think you disproved, and what he is arguing, or isint, are two different things. If he wants a civil argument, he needs to set his point and give an argument, not say "Regi is right and the rest of you are giving a bunch of fallacies"

By the way, it's rigeld2, not Regi.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
The FAQ dosent put a limit on weapon modes either. By letter of the rule, if you have the capability to fire normally, you must fire normally. If I dont move I have the capability to fire normally. Tell me how that is any different from choosing a different weapon mode.

One is done in the movement phase, one is done when you fire. The FAQ is worded to restrict firing choice.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Argue RAW and stop saying someones argument is a fallacy simply because you dont like it, especially when you dont have anything to offer as a counter point.

Except that saying that a ruling on one instance leads to restrictions on other, loosely related, instances is a slippery slope fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

I also was agreeing with the general principle that RAW states you can choose to fire heavy 4 instead of assault 2, but made the point that I don't expect it to remain that way for very long.

Actually it is not.
This does not lead ot a chain of "Other" rulings. It becomes all of the same ruling. Im not saying that "If you cant choose your mode, soon you wont be able to choose _____"

If you are not able to choose to fire the heavy mode because to do so would be to choose to fire snapshot, then why should you be able to choose to move?

Wouldnt that be the same thing? Someone still has yet to tell me how the two are different.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
If you are not able to choose to fire the heavy mode because to do so would be to choose to fire snapshot, then why should you be able to choose to move?

Because one happens during the movement phase, and the other happens when you're firing. I've addressed that multiple times despite your assertion otherwise.

Q: Can I choose to make a Snap Shot rather than a normal shot?
(p13)
A: No.

Note how the question references page 13? What is page 13 talking about I wonder... could it perhaps be the shooting phase and not the movement phase? Let's go see!
Top right corner of the phase says "The Shooting Phase". Oh, wow! So it has absolutely nothing to do with your movement decision and absolutely everything to do with your firing decision!

Wouldnt that be the same thing? Someone still has yet to tell me how the two are different.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
i choose to move instead of remain still, and must therefore snapshot, so again, because I had the option to stand still, by regi's definition I have chosen to snapshot.

The FAQ puts no limits on your movement, only on your shooting choices. This assertion is incorrect.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
The FAQ dosent put a limit on weapon modes either. By letter of the rule, if you have the capability to fire normally, you must fire normally. If I dont move I have the capability to fire normally. Tell me how that is any different from choosing a different weapon mode.

One is done in the movement phase, one is done when you fire. The FAQ is worded to restrict firing choice.

Yeah, no one has told you how they're different.

I'd like to see where you get to add to the FAQ that "Choosing to move" to snap fire is any different from "Choosing which mode"

As a permissive ruleset, if you are prohibited from choosing, you need permission to do anything that would cause you to snapfire because there is a choice involved somewhere.

You see why this argument dosent make sense.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
I'd like to see where you get to add to the FAQ that "Choosing to move" to snap fire is any different from "Choosing which mode"

Because the FAQ includes a reference to page 13.
Pray, what section of the rules are on page 13?

Im sorry, does the FAQ say explicitly that special powers do not work?

You do not make logical leaps of faith when arguing RAW.

And that would be the shooting phase, which as far as I can tell is irrelevant.

Well thats a pity. Using this logic I can no longer attempt to shoot down fliers with Hive Guard, since they would be choosing to Snap Fire. Or even fire heavy weapon if you move at all, since they are snap shots.

You can fire the Heavy 4 and snap shot or you can fire Assault 2.

And thats exactly what I've been saying this entire tiime but no one seems to realise that.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Im sorry, does the FAQ say explicitly that special powers do not work?

Wrong thread?

You do not make logical leaps of faith when arguing RAW.

Correct.

And that would be the shooting phase, which as far as I can tell is irrelevant.

... How is that irrelevant?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
Well thats a pity. Using this logic I can no longer attempt to shoot down fliers with Hive Guard, since they would be choosing to Snap Fire.

Not true. You choose to fire and your shots are resolved as Snap Shots. Note the difference and how I've addressed that at least twice in this thread so far. Perhaps you'd like to address those posts and point out where I'm wrong?

Or even fire heavy weapon if you move at all, since they are snap shots.

The FAQ doesn't address movement, only firing decisions, since the scope of the question is limited to the firing phase.

My mistake, you are correct. Half of that post was for the wrong thread.

It refernces the shooting phase in passing simply because that when you shoot. Nowhere does it say "If I do something the the shooting phase that makes me snapfire on a choice I cant snapfire"

You cant pick what the phrase "Choose to Snapfire" means. The way you are suggesting to play also suggests that if you do ANYTHING and I repeat ANYTHING that makes you snapfire you have CHOSEN somewhere to snapfire. You cannot say, "Well you cant choose to do anything in the shooting phase that would make you snapfire" Because thats not what the FAQ says.

That is a leap of logic, and is not RAW.

I am overwatching, so I am choosing to fire snap shots..... Guess we can scratch that one too..

If we follow Rigeld's interpretation, yes.

Fragile wrote:
I am overwatching, so I am choosing to fire snap shots..... Guess we can scratch that one too..

Except you're granted explicit permission to do that.
Guess you can stop trying to straw man me too.

Thats not an argument, does not back up a point, and contains no rules refernce. That statement is meant only to inflame and is against the tenets of YMDC

Rigeld, your ignoring half of the FAQ you quote for your support. All those example I gave were cases where I choose to fire a snapshot, which you claim is illegal. The FAQ states instead of a normal shot. A normal overwatch is snapshot, a normal shooting at a flier is a snapshot, a normal firing of a heavy weapon that moved is a snapshot. If i can shoot Overwatch or at a Flyer then I can fire a Heavy weapon that moved as a snapshot.

Fragile wrote:
Rigeld, your ignoring half of the FAQ you quote for your support. All those example I gave were cases where I choose to fire a snapshot, which you claim is illegal. The FAQ states instead of a normal shot. A normal overwatch is snapshot, a normal shooting at a flier is a snapshot, a normal firing of a heavy weapon that moved is a snapshot. If i can shoot Overwatch or at a Flyer then I can fire a Heavy weapon that moved as a snapshot.

In the case of an overwatch, do you have the option of firing a "normal shot"?
In the case of firing at a flier, do you have the option of firing a "normal shot"?
In the case of a moving heavy weapon, do you have the option of firing a "normal shot"?

In all of those cases the answer is no, and therefore the FAQ does not apply to you at all.

In the case of the Psycannon it's different - you explicitly *do* have the option of firing a "normal shot".

rigeld2 wrote:
In the case of the Psycannon it's different - you explicitly *do* have the option of firing a "normal shot".

If you are firing Heavy 4, you do not have the option to fire a normal shot. They all myst be snap shots.

No, you have the option of choosing fire mode. At no point do you choose to snap shot

You are stating that the consequence of a choice is the same as choosing the consequence, when that isnt how the rules work.

You choose to fire Heavy. The rules FORCE you to snapshot. The FAQ does not apply

If the weapon had different lines separating the profiles, I'd agree. As it's one line meaning one profile I just can't see that based on the rules on page 51.

I might concede RAW but I believe RAI is that a moving PA unit should never be able to fire Heavy with a Psycannon. Note that I'm still not convinced RAW they're able to.

rigeld2 wrote:
I might concede RAW but I believe RAI is that a moving PA unit should never be able to fire Heavy with a Psycannon.

Now, this line I can agree with you on. And I could see GW FAQ'ing this to make your stand on it correct. But currently the rules say that you only have to choose whether to fire it Heavy or Assault.

One profile, or two, what does it matter?

The Codex gives you a choice of Heavy 4 or Assault 2. when you select one of them you then find the rules that say you are forced to snap shot if you have chosen Heavy 4.

You are not choosing to snap shot, you are forced to snap shot.

 DeathReaper wrote:
One profile, or two, what does it matter?

The Codex gives you a choice of Heavy 4 or Assault 2. when you select one of them you then find the rules that say you are forced to snap shot if you have chosen Heavy 4.

You are not choosing to snap shot, you are forced to snap shot.

Before this merry go round circles again, can the above bold be double checked? I'm away from my books, so while I'm not attempting to quote anything, but does it really give you a choice? Doesn't it say "X if stationary or Y if moving"?

Nope just says it can be fired as a Heavy weapon or an assault weapon.

The codex entry for psycannon says:

Assault 2 or Heavy 4*, Rending

* a psycannon can either be fired as a Heavy weapon or as an Assault weapon (note that models in Terminator amrour always use the Heavy option).

So by that you may always choose whether to fire Heavy or Assault unless you're in Terminator armour.

Edited numerous typos . . .

culsandar wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
One profile, or two, what does it matter?

The Codex gives you a choice of Heavy 4 or Assault 2. when you select one of them you then find the rules that say you are forced to snap shot if you have chosen Heavy 4.

You are not choosing to snap shot, you are forced to snap shot.

Before this merry go round circles again, can the above bold be double checked? I'm away from my books, so while I'm not attempting to quote anything, but does it really give you a choice? Doesn't it say "X if stationary or Y if moving"?

No it does not say "X if stationary or Y if moving"

I guess I should have included a quote from the GK Codex.

Yeah, there's absolutely no mention of moving: merely a choice between Assault 2 and Heavy 4 for non-Terminator armoured models.

 Blood and Slaughter wrote:
* a psycannon can either be fired as a Heavy weapon or as an Assault weapon (note that models in Terminator amrour always use the Heavy option).

Doesn't that give you the choice then, regardless of FAQ?

BRB (FAQ) says no choice.
Codex says choice.
Codex wins.

?

culsandar wrote:

 Blood and Slaughter wrote:
* a psycannon can either be fired as a Heavy weapon or as an Assault weapon (note that models in Terminator amrour always use the Heavy option).

Doesn't that give you the choice then, regardless of FAQ?

BRB (FAQ) says no choice.
Codex says choice.
Codex wins.

?

No codex in general trumps BRB where there is a conflict. FAQs in general trump both where there is a conflict.

Regardless I think we have finally come to a "general consensus". RAW you can, RAI lots of people dislike it. It dosent bother me either way but I do agree that it will be FAQ'd soon.