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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 16:19:48
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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Heroic Senior Officer
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rigeld2 wrote:You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.
So can an IG HW Team move and fire their heavy weapon as snap shots? Given that they also have a lasgun and could shoot it instead? Pretty much the same situation, IMO.
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Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
Northern VA/Southern MD |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 16:22:03
Subject: Re:Psycannons and Snap Shots
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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I believe the FAQ ruling was that you cannot elect to take Snap Shots in a situation where you would otherwise get normal shots, in the case of a weapon with only one profile.
Weapons with 2 profiles are free to switch between them when shooting, then additional restrictions will apply to whichever profile they choose to shoot.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 16:24:55
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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The Hive Mind
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don_mondo wrote:rigeld2 wrote:You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.
So can an IG HW Team move and fire their heavy weapon as snap shots? Given that they also have a lasgun and could shoot it instead? Pretty much the same situation, IMO.
Except they don't have a lasgun as well iirc. Automatically Appended Next Post: Grey Templar wrote:I believe the FAQ ruling was that you cannot elect to take Snap Shots in a situation where you would otherwise get normal shots, in the case of a weapon with only one profile.
Citation needed for the bold. Also, Psycannons only have one weapon profile.
Weapons with 2 profiles are free to switch between them when shooting, then additional restrictions will apply to whichever profile they choose to shoot.
And by choosing to shoot Heavy after moving you're choosing to shoot Snap Shots instead of Normal.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/09 16:27:12
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 16:29:14
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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rigeld2 wrote: don_mondo wrote:rigeld2 wrote:You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.
So can an IG HW Team move and fire their heavy weapon as snap shots? Given that they also have a lasgun and could shoot it instead? Pretty much the same situation, IMO.
Except they don't have a lasgun as well iirc.
IG HWT's do have a lasgun as well as a heavy weapon.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 16:31:54
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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The Hive Mind
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DeathReaper wrote:rigeld2 wrote: don_mondo wrote:rigeld2 wrote:You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.
So can an IG HW Team move and fire their heavy weapon as snap shots? Given that they also have a lasgun and could shoot it instead? Pretty much the same situation, IMO.
Except they don't have a lasgun as well iirc.
IG HWT's do have a lasgun as well as a heavy weapon.
Then no, that FAQ would also remove the choice from an IG HWT.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 16:32:20
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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And you do not see how wrong that is?
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 16:33:52
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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Heroic Senior Officer
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rigeld2 wrote: don_mondo wrote:rigeld2 wrote:You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.
So can an IG HW Team move and fire their heavy weapon as snap shots? Given that they also have a lasgun and could shoot it instead? Pretty much the same situation, IMO.
Except they don't have a lasgun as well iirc.
Pretty sure you are wrong, but OK, how about a Space Marine then? Does he lose his bolt pistol when he takes a heavy weapon? Point being, choosing the weapon or the firing mode is NOT choosing to fire via snap shot, neither is moving prior to shooting. Otherwise, as others have pointed out, your argument falls apart when it comes to moving and shooting a heavy weapon, which can only be done as a snap shot. Choosing to move and then fire the heavy is not choosing to fire snap shot, the snap shot is forced on you by the movement/heavy combo. Well, the psycannon is the same thing, in spite of being a single weapon that has two fire modes. You choose heavy and then snap shot is forced on you. Personally, I'm all for anything that goes against GK, but even I don't see any support for your argument.
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Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
Northern VA/Southern MD |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 16:37:15
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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The Hive Mind
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Do I think it's slightly silly? Maybe.
Does that matter? Not at all.
Find permission to make a choice to make a Snap Shot.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 16:41:31
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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rigeld2 wrote: Do I think it's slightly silly? Maybe. Does that matter? Not at all. Find permission to make a choice to make a Snap Shot. GK Codex says you can choose Assault 2 or Heavy 4. (This is not choosing to make a Snap Shot). The FAQ only says you can not make snap shots instead of normal shots. You can not make normal shots with a Psycannon firing at Heavy 4 so the FAQ does not come into play.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/09 16:42:17
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 16:44:33
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Rigeld, I have a squad of Fire Dragons. 6"away is a CCB. 6" away is a Nightscythe.
Am I allowed to fire at the Nightscythe? Why?
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 17:07:19
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
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rigeld2 wrote:Target wrote:Q: Can I choose to make a Snap Shot rather than a normal shot?
(p13)
A: No.
That's clear - and that HW trooper CAN make a normal shot, if he doesn't move.
The FAQ isn't related to moving, it's related to shooting.
So he elected to move, he can't fire a snap shot as he would have been able to make a normal shot.
There's nothing in the FAQ restricting movement, only shooting choices.
And if you don't agree with forebidding snapshots to moving heavy weapons - then you see my issue with your argument. The psycannon is both a heavy weapon AND an assault weapon, as I quoted the rulebook text, each turn you choose which profile to use, and it doesn't say when. Then I choose at the beginning of the turn I'm using it as a heavy weapon, it's a heavy weapon just like a heavy bolter. I moved. I must fire snapshots, it's not a choice.
Page 51 doesn't apply as there are not separate lines for the weapon (like there are for Missile Launchers for example).
So we look at the codex. The weapon can be fired as either Heavy or Assault - so you pick when you fire. Which is well after movement, not before.
Codex > BRB.
To sum up pretty much where we're at:
Stance 1:
-The psycannon has assault and heavy modes, you chose which profile you use to fire a weapon each turn (doesn't state when, just each turn)
-You chose Heavy
-You are forced to fire snap shots, it's not a choice
Stance 2:
-You could have chosen to use assault mode instead of heavy, as such you are choosing to fire snap shots, which the FAQ does not allow (can a model chose to fire snap shots - no)
The disagreement:
In stance 1 you are not choosing to fire snap shots, you are choosing which mode to fire in, which you are allowed to do by RAW. This choice forces you to only fire snap shots. Stance 2 - That choice is the same thing as choosing fire snap shots, so you cant choose which firing mode you use (even though the book says you can choose the mode each turn....)
But - this is going nowhere, so unless someone has new inputs, we may as well drop it. Neither side is coming up with anything new, and I think this circle has been run enough.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 17:31:52
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I don't think this comes into play in this discussion. You can't fire normal shots at fliers (unless you have skyfire), so the FAQ isn't relevant.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 17:47:22
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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The Hive Mind
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jms40k wrote:
I don't think this comes into play in this discussion. You can't fire normal shots at fliers (unless you have skyfire), so the FAQ isn't relevant
Not true - in fact this is absolutely relevant.
You fire any kind of shot at a flier but it must be resolved as a snap shot. Therefore shooting a snapshot at a flier is no disadvantage. So choosing Heavy is only an advantage. The fact that its an advantage isn't relevant to my position, but is relevant to the situation. Automatically Appended Next Post: Happyjew wrote:Rigeld, I have a squad of Fire Dragons. 6"away is a CCB. 6" away is a Nightscythe.
Am I allowed to fire at the Nightscythe? Why?
Yes, because you're firing normal shots that are resolved as snap shots.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/09 17:48:02
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 22:02:35
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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I'm surprised that no one thought up that maybe someone would want to fire snap shots with their weapons to maybe not kill enough of the enemy to fail a charge subsequently.
You still want to kill like 1-2 of the enemy so that you succeed in the fighting but don't want to kill say 5 guys or you'd fail your charge. I think that's what the FAQ was addressing.
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+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 22:22:56
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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The Hive Mind
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In that scenario you can always just opt not to shoot with some models.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/10 03:55:15
Subject: Re:Psycannons and Snap Shots
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Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader
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Okay then. So i move my Grey Knight squad. I choose to fire my psycannon as a heavy 4, rending weapon.
At this point, am i choosing to make a snapfire? Because this would be the time at which i would have to declare how i was firing at my opponent. The FAQ declares that i am not allowed to willingly fire snapshots. However, i am not firing snapshots. I am firing a Heavy 4, rending psycannon. I declare that this is my mode of fire.
I HAVE ALREADY DECLARED HOW THE WEAPON WILL BE FIRED.
Now the next bit is important. Now that i am firing a heavy weapon after having moved, the shots are resolved as snapshots.
Now, did i ever choose to fire snapshots? No. The rules forced me to. I choose to fire a heavy weapon after having moved. That's all I AS THE PLAYER HAVE CHOSEN. The rules now make my shots snapfire shots.
This is RAW legal. Not once did i choose to fire snapshots. I chose to fire a heavy weapon. That's all i have done. And to say that "No, you are choosing to fire snapshots because that is the end result," is simply wrong.
I repeat it once more. The FAQ forbids players from choosing to fire snapshots. But never once did i make that choice.
Not trying to seem condescending or rude here, but this seems very simple.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/10 04:26:43
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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Fresh-Faced New User
USA
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Xca|iber wrote:
Q: Can I choose to make a Snap Shot rather than a normal shot? (p13)
A: No.
"Under certain circumstances, models can only fire Snap Shots - ... If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then it's Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.", p.13
Basic rules don't allow a model to voluntarily reduce its BS, so this FAQ is not addressing you voluntarily reducing your BS to a Snap shot. The FAQ is addressing a situation where you can choose to fire between a Snap shot and normally. Two important parts of the Snap shot definition are "under certain circumstances" and "if a model is forced to make Snap Shots..." Therefore, there must be a "certain circumstance" and the model must "be forced to make Snap shots" under this circumstance. So, a Snap shot is not a choice, but mandated by a circumstance.
So, a model must be in a situation where it can both Snap shot and fire normally at the moment the shot is taken. The psycannon situation is an example where the FAQ applies and the assault profile should be used if the model moved and was not relentless. However, firing at a flyer or SMFC, the hard to hit rule (certain circumstance) applies to both profiles, so there are no "normal" shots and the heavy weapon profile can be used.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/10 04:46:26
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Brian2000 wrote:The psycannon situation is an example where the FAQ applies and the assault profile should be used if the model moved and was not relentless. However, firing at a flyer or SMFC, the hard to hit rule (certain circumstance) applies to both profiles, so there are no "normal" shots and the heavy weapon profile can be used.
No it really is not.
You do not choose to take snap shots, as you can not make regular shots with a Heavy 4 Psycannon on a PA marine that has moved.
What the FAQ is asking is "Can I choose to make a Snap Shot rather than a normal shot?"
This means I have a Psycannon and I have not moved, can I make snap shots instead of shots at full BS. The answer of course is No.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/10 04:46:37
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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The Hive Mind
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Not true. A model does not take snap shots against flyers - they're simply all resolved as snap shots. There's a difference.
Edit - directed at Brian, ninjaed by DR
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/10 04:48:02
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/10 15:03:02
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot
Green Bay
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So, as a Dark Angels player, what half of the posts on here are saying is that I would NEVER be able to fire a heavy weapon if my marines moved.
All of my marines have pistols, which they could shoot at full BS instead.
I do believe this argument is ridiculous. You are trying to restrict people from using a weapon upgrade that they paid for.
Yes, this is completely relevent to the argument at hand, because if one is true, then so is the other.
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rigeld2 wrote: Now go ahead and take that out of context to make me look like a fool. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/10 15:10:27
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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The Hive Mind
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nolzur wrote:So, as a Dark Angels player, what half of the posts on here are saying is that I would NEVER be able to fire a heavy weapon if my marines moved.
All of my marines have pistols, which they could shoot at full BS instead.
If you're within pistol range, yes.
I do believe this argument is ridiculous. You are trying to restrict people from using a weapon upgrade that they paid for.
Yes, this is completely relevent to the argument at hand, because if one is true, then so is the other.
Send the question in to GW for an FAQ. As it stands I don't see another way out of this RAW.
I don't think it's intended for Psycannons to get free extra shots against Flyers, but whatever.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/10 15:39:43
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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Drop Trooper with Demo Charge
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I tend to think this was FAQ to prevent people with special rules like rending, Tesla, sniper, precision shot from twin linking their guns and claiming 1-5 as a miss.
You all are missing the point of the rule
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/10 15:57:35
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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Missionary On A Mission
Richmond Va
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This has got to be the most paper thin argument I've ever heard.
So now, even though this was changed in the rulebook, I cannot move and fire my heavy weapons because to do so would be to choose to snapfire?
I cannot overwatch because to do so would be to choose to snapshot?
I cannot snapshot at all because to do so would be to choose to snapshot?
See where this argument is falling apart?
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My Overprotective Father wrote:Tyrants shooting emplaced weapons? A Hive Tyrant may be smarter than your average bug, but that still isint saying much
Pretre: Are repressors assault vehicles? If they are, I'm gonna need emergency pants.
n0t_u: No, but six can shoot out of it. Other than that it's a Rhino with a Heavy Flamer thrown on if I remember correctly.
Pretre: Thanks! I guess my pants are safe and clean after all.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/10 16:40:46
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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The Hive Mind
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Vindicare-Obsession wrote:This has got to be the most paper thin argument I've ever heard.
So now, even though this was changed in the rulebook, I cannot move and fire my heavy weapons because to do so would be to choose to snapfire?
No, you're allowed to as long as you don't have another option.
I cannot overwatch because to do so would be to choose to snapshot?
Wrong - the FAQ specifies that you're not allowed to choose to snapshot if you have the option not to. Do you have the option to not snapshot if you're overwatching?
I cannot snapshot at all because to do so would be to choose to snapshot?
Vindicare-Obsession, FAQ. FAQ, Vindicare-Obsession. It'd be great if you read the FAQ instead of assuming you knew what it said. From this post it's obvious you didn't actually read it.
See where this argument is falling apart?
Yes, it's obvious where your argument failed.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/10 17:02:28
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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Drop Trooper with Demo Charge
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Uhm he was proving a point. Not actually making an argument. You apparently missed the sarcasm oozing out of that post.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/10 17:25:27
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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The Hive Mind
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bfdhud wrote:Uhm he was proving a point. Not actually making an argument. You apparently missed the sarcasm oozing out of that post.
No, I got it completely.
His point was completely wrong. None of his points, even sarcastically, are valid if you actually read the FAQ.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/10 17:41:51
Subject: Re:Psycannons and Snap Shots
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Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker
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This whole thread is clearly Grey Knight propaganda trying to be even more OP by moving 6 and shooting heavy 4 snap shots.
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I need to return some video tapes.
Skulls for the Skull Throne |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/10 17:43:06
Subject: Re:Psycannons and Snap Shots
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Goat wrote:This whole thread is clearly Grey Knight propaganda trying to be even more OP by moving 6 and shooting heavy 4 snap shots.
Yea, do not assign motive when none exists.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/10 17:43:24
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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Dakka Veteran
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It's not exactly a long FAQ entry with lots of explanations of how to handle various situations: Q: Can I choose to make a Snap Shot rather than a normal shot?
(p13)
A: No.
So, you can't simply choose to Snap Shot. Apparently the question in this thread is, based on this FAQ entry, can you make a decision prior to rolling to-hit that results in firing a Snap Shot instead of a normal shot, and if not, how far prior to rolling to-hit are your choices restricted?
By my reading of this thread, rigeld2 is drawing a line at the shooting phase.
I don't see that explained in the relevant FAQ entry, and I've read it in its entirety several times.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/10 17:45:40
Subject: Psycannons and Snap Shots
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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AS above.
You are not choosing to snap shot, you are choosing the firing mode
The rules then decide whether that shot is "snap" or not.
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