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As nos said,
I am forced to fire snapshot if I choose the heavy option. I am not choosing to snapshot.

What you are saying is exactly what I said in my previous post. By snapshotting anything, you must've chosen to snapshot at one point, and that argument is wrong.

Call it what you will, strawman, argumentum ad absudem, whatever, but that is one thing that I will not budge on under any circumstance.

I can't choose to fire my gun as a snap shot. If some other choice is made that requires Mr to shoot as snap shots that is perfectly fine.

In other words heavy can move then fire.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
By snapshotting anything, you must've chosen to snapshot at one point, and that argument is wrong.

And there's no problem with that if you don't have the option to fire normally.
Pretending that I'm saying it's impossible to ever snap shot is false. I'm not, and the FAQ isn't.

You dont have the option to fire normally; you have fired as heavy after moving, meaning you MUST snapshot

the choice is in the firing mode, nothing else. The FAQ does not interact at that point.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You dont have the option to fire normally; you have fired as heavy after moving, meaning you MUST snapshot

the choice is in the firing mode, nothing else. The FAQ does not interact at that point.

You do have the option to fire normally - you're just opting not to choose that option. The FAQ doesn't give you that option.
Page 58 in the GK codex says that the weapon may be fired as Heavy or Assault - meaning that the decision isn't made until you actually shoot, well after you've moved.
Choosing to fire Heavy means you are choosing to fire Snap Shots, by definition, if you've moved.

Choosing the Heavy mode does not make you choose snap shots. The Snap Shots are forced upon you after you choose which profile the Psycannon will use.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Choosing the Heavy mode does not make you choose snap shots. The Snap Shots are forced upon you after you choose which profile the Psycannon will use.

The PA model moves.
It comes time to fire. This isn't a separate firing profile - it's one weapon that can shoot either Heavy 4 or Assault 2 (by the definition in the BRB, that's not 2 profiles).
You fire the weapon - if you fire Heavy, you snap fire. Therefore choosing to fire Heavy is choosing Snap Fire.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Choosing the Heavy mode does not make you choose snap shots. The Snap Shots are forced upon you after you choose which profile the Psycannon will use.

The PA model moves.
It comes time to fire. This isn't a separate firing profile - it's one weapon that can shoot either Heavy 4 or Assault 2 (by the definition in the BRB, that's not 2 profiles).
You fire the weapon - if you fire Heavy, you snap fire. Therefore choosing to fire Heavy is choosing Snap Fire.

Fixing the last line for you:
You fire the weapon - if you choose to fire in Heavy mode, the rules force you to fire as snap fire. Therefor choosing to fire Heavy is not choosing snap fire.

 don_mondo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Choosing the Heavy mode does not make you choose snap shots. The Snap Shots are forced upon you after you choose which profile the Psycannon will use.

The PA model moves.
It comes time to fire. This isn't a separate firing profile - it's one weapon that can shoot either Heavy 4 or Assault 2 (by the definition in the BRB, that's not 2 profiles).
You fire the weapon - if you fire Heavy, you snap fire. Therefore choosing to fire Heavy is choosing Snap Fire.

Fixing the last line for you:
You fire the weapon - if you choose to fire in Heavy mode, the rules force you to fire as snap fire. Therefor choosing to fire Heavy is not choosing snap fire.

Do you have the option to fire the weapon and not snap fire?

rigeld2 wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Choosing the Heavy mode does not make you choose snap shots. The Snap Shots are forced upon you after you choose which profile the Psycannon will use.

The PA model moves.
It comes time to fire. This isn't a separate firing profile - it's one weapon that can shoot either Heavy 4 or Assault 2 (by the definition in the BRB, that's not 2 profiles).
You fire the weapon - if you fire Heavy, you snap fire. Therefore choosing to fire Heavy is choosing Snap Fire.

Fixing the last line for you:
You fire the weapon - if you choose to fire in Heavy mode, the rules force you to fire as snap fire. Therefor choosing to fire Heavy is not choosing snap fire.

Do you have the option to fire the weapon and not snap fire?

Does a SM with a bolt pistol and a missile launcher have an option to fire a weapon and not snap fire?

Doesn't matter what other weapons/modes of fire you might have. You can choose to fire either weapon/mode of fire, then the rules tell you how it must be fired, normally or as snap fire.

And that's the two basic sides to this argument. So shall we get off the merry-go-round?

 don_mondo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Do you have the option to fire the weapon and not snap fire?

Does a SM with a bolt pistol and a missile launcher have an option to fire a weapon and not snap fire?

Already asked and answered.

Doesn't matter what other weapons/modes of fire you might have. You can choose to fire either weapon/mode of fire, then the rules tell you how it must be fired, normally or as snap fire.

That's your assumption. The FAQ doesn't give you that allowance.

And that's the two basic sides to this argument. So shall we get off the merry-go-round?

I've already said to send in an email. I've been told my argument is thin, weak, and wrong. I'm defending it.

The FAQ does give you that allowance, as you are not choosing to snap fire - you are choosing the fire mode / weapon you wish to use, and then the rules FORCE that fire mode on you.

There is no choice at that point, which is what the FAQ requires

The FAQ says you can not choose to snapshot when you can shoot at full BS.

If you choose to fire your Heavy weapon after you have moved, and do not have relentless, you are not choosing to fire snap shots, the snap shots are forced upon you at that point.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The FAQ says you can not choose to snapshot when you can shoot at full BS.

That's not what it says.

If you choose to fire your Heavy weapon after you have moved, and do not have relentless, you are not choosing to fire snap shots, the snap shots are forced upon you at that point.

By choosing to fire the Heavy weapon, you are choosing to fire Snap Shots.

And round and round we go. And yes, email sent off to the GW FAQ guys. We'll see if they answer it in an FAQ.

rigeld2 wrote:

If you choose to fire your Heavy weapon after you have moved, and do not have relentless, you are not choosing to fire snap shots, the snap shots are forced upon you at that point.

By choosing to fire the Heavy weapon, you are choosing to fire Snap Shots.

Yes, but only indirectly. You're not directly choosing to fire the weapon as Snap Shots, which is all that matters. The choice you're making is not to fire Snap Shots, it's to move the model, which forces Snap Shots upon you.

The FAQ does not say that you cannot make a separate choice that in turn forces you to snap fire.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The FAQ says you can not choose to snapshot when you can shoot at full BS.

That's not what it says.

Actually that is what it says, because Normal shots are shots at full BS.

Here it is again.

FAQ wrote:Q: Can I choose to make a Snap Shot rather than a normal shot?
(p13)
A: No.

You can not choose to Snap Shot rather that shoot at full BS. (Which is what a normal shot is).

rigeld2 wrote:
By choosing to fire the Heavy weapon, you are choosing to fire Snap Shots.

And by choosing to move with a heavy weapon I am choosing to fire snapshots.

By choosing to shoot at a flyer, I am choosing to fire snapshots.

You are trying to have your cake and eat it too, it dosent work like that. If I cant choose a fire mode, then I cant choose to do anything else that would force me to fire snapshots. There is nothing in the FAQ that says "You cant choose a firing mode that would make you fire snapshots but anything else you choose that would make you fire snapshots is just fine"

By choosing to snapshot at all, I am choosing to snapshot. Its that simple.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
By choosing to fire the Heavy weapon, you are choosing to fire Snap Shots.

And by choosing to move with a heavy weapon I am choosing to fire snapshots.

By choosing to shoot at a flyer, I am choosing to fire snapshots.

This is a slippery slope fallacy and really shouldn't be tolerated when we are arguing strict RAW. Movement and target selection is not being limited by this FAQ ruling or rigeld's interpretation of it. The real question for this thread is: is choosing to fire a weapon mode that requires snapshots when another option available allowed? By RAW? Probably. I wouldn't base all my hopes on it staying that way in future though.

Do not call my argument a fallacy without any evidence backing up your opinion. I will not tolerate you trying to discredit someones argument because you dont like it. My argument will be tolerated as it gives my standpoint and a number of counter points to prove it, which yours does not.

Perhaps if I explained it better,

I choose to fire heacy 4 instead of assault 2, so by regi's definition I must be choosing to snapshot. fine.

i choose to move instead of remain still, and must therefore snapshot, so again, because I had the option to stand still, by regi's definition I have chosen to snapshot.

I choose to do anything that would make me snapshot instead of not doing that thing, so am forced to snapshot. Therefore, since I had a choice, I am choosing to snapshot and the action is disallowed.

You want a RAW argument? Argue RAW and stop saying someones argument is a fallacy simply because you dont like it, especially when you dont have anything to offer as a counter point.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
i choose to move instead of remain still, and must therefore snapshot, so again, because I had the option to stand still, by regi's definition I have chosen to snapshot.

The FAQ puts no limits on your movement, only on your shooting choices. This assertion is incorrect.

I choose to do anything that would make me snapshot instead of not doing that thing, so am forced to snapshot. Therefore, since I had a choice, I am choosing to snapshot and the action is disallowed.

It's actually not as common as you're trying to make it out to be. Moving with a heavy weapon and having a backup is about the only way to trigger it - firing at fliers doesn't because those shots are resolved as snapshots, not made as snap shots.

You want a RAW argument? Argue RAW and stop saying someones argument is a fallacy simply because you dont like it, especially when you dont have anything to offer as a counter point.

He called your argument a fallacy because it was. I disproved it the other few times its been brought up in the thread as well.

The FAQ dosent put a limit on weapon modes either. By letter of the rule, if you have the capability to fire normally, you must fire normally. If I dont move I have the capability to fire normally. Tell me how that is any different from choosing a different weapon mode.

By your argument it is exactly the same.

What you think you disproved, and what he is arguing, or isint, are two different things. If he wants a civil argument, he needs to set his point and give an argument, not say "Regi is right and the rest of you are giving a bunch of fallacies"

By the way, it's rigeld2, not Regi.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
The FAQ dosent put a limit on weapon modes either. By letter of the rule, if you have the capability to fire normally, you must fire normally. If I dont move I have the capability to fire normally. Tell me how that is any different from choosing a different weapon mode.

One is done in the movement phase, one is done when you fire. The FAQ is worded to restrict firing choice.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Argue RAW and stop saying someones argument is a fallacy simply because you dont like it, especially when you dont have anything to offer as a counter point.

Except that saying that a ruling on one instance leads to restrictions on other, loosely related, instances is a slippery slope fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

I also was agreeing with the general principle that RAW states you can choose to fire heavy 4 instead of assault 2, but made the point that I don't expect it to remain that way for very long.

Actually it is not.
This does not lead ot a chain of "Other" rulings. It becomes all of the same ruling. Im not saying that "If you cant choose your mode, soon you wont be able to choose _____"

If you are not able to choose to fire the heavy mode because to do so would be to choose to fire snapshot, then why should you be able to choose to move?

Wouldnt that be the same thing? Someone still has yet to tell me how the two are different.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
If you are not able to choose to fire the heavy mode because to do so would be to choose to fire snapshot, then why should you be able to choose to move?

Because one happens during the movement phase, and the other happens when you're firing. I've addressed that multiple times despite your assertion otherwise.

Q: Can I choose to make a Snap Shot rather than a normal shot?
(p13)
A: No.

Note how the question references page 13? What is page 13 talking about I wonder... could it perhaps be the shooting phase and not the movement phase? Let's go see!
Top right corner of the phase says "The Shooting Phase". Oh, wow! So it has absolutely nothing to do with your movement decision and absolutely everything to do with your firing decision!

Wouldnt that be the same thing? Someone still has yet to tell me how the two are different.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
i choose to move instead of remain still, and must therefore snapshot, so again, because I had the option to stand still, by regi's definition I have chosen to snapshot.

The FAQ puts no limits on your movement, only on your shooting choices. This assertion is incorrect.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
The FAQ dosent put a limit on weapon modes either. By letter of the rule, if you have the capability to fire normally, you must fire normally. If I dont move I have the capability to fire normally. Tell me how that is any different from choosing a different weapon mode.

One is done in the movement phase, one is done when you fire. The FAQ is worded to restrict firing choice.

Yeah, no one has told you how they're different.

I'd like to see where you get to add to the FAQ that "Choosing to move" to snap fire is any different from "Choosing which mode"

As a permissive ruleset, if you are prohibited from choosing, you need permission to do anything that would cause you to snapfire because there is a choice involved somewhere.

You see why this argument dosent make sense.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
I'd like to see where you get to add to the FAQ that "Choosing to move" to snap fire is any different from "Choosing which mode"

Because the FAQ includes a reference to page 13.
Pray, what section of the rules are on page 13?

Im sorry, does the FAQ say explicitly that special powers do not work?

You do not make logical leaps of faith when arguing RAW.

And that would be the shooting phase, which as far as I can tell is irrelevant.