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So, I've been away for awhile and I didn't think to ask this earlier when the Rulebook FAQ came out. Anyway, here's the question:

Rulebook FAQ wrote:Q: Can I choose to make a Snap Shot rather than a normal shot?
(p13)
A: No.

If a unit moves and has a Psycannon (without Relentless), may they fire the Heavy profile as Snap Shots?

There seem to be two ways to look at this:
1) Yes. You choose to fire with the heavy profile, and thus must fire snap shots. (p51 "If a model carrying a Heavy weapon moved in the preceding Movement phase, he can fire it in the Shooting phase but only as Snap Shots.")
2) No. Choosing to fire the heavy profile is equivalent (rules-wise) to choosing to make a snap shot rather than a normal shot. (FAQ)

What does YMDC think?

If your models have moved you 'may' elect to use the 2 shot profile and fire at full ballistic skill or the 4 shot profile and fire via the snapshot rule; unless the model wielding it is in terminator armor. (in which case you have to use the latter profile, not that there would likely be any detriment to doing so as they have relentless by default)

You may elect to fire 'any' heavy weapon as a snapshot provided you are not otherwise prevented from doing so by some other rule and the psycannon is no exception; even though it has an alternate mode of fire.

The way the FAQ reads, I think it's option two. Assuming wearing PA and not relentless, you are given two modes of firing. One if you stand still, and one if you move. If you move, that profile is now the "normal" shot, with the other profile requiring a snap shot. The rulebook faq is then pretty clear on that.

Sigmundr wrote:
The way the FAQ reads, I think it's option two. Assuming wearing PA and not relentless, you are given two modes of firing. One if you stand still, and one if you move. If you move, that profile is now the "normal" shot, with the other profile requiring a snap shot. The rulebook faq is then pretty clear on that.

That's what you suppose but in the RAW (FAQ included), nothing prevents you from choosing the heavy mode, it only prevents you from intentionally fire snapshot in a way you would normally fire at full BS (e.g. you wear a termi armor and you want to shoot snapshots with you heavy after moving for an obscure reason)

I say its option 1.

The Psycannon can be either Heavy or Assault. You choose when firing it.

It doesn't matter if choosing one would force you to snap shot. Its not a concious choice.

If it was then shooting at a Flyer would be illegal as you would be choosing to fire under circumstances forcing you to snap shot.

Can someone enlighten me as to the purpose of this FAQ ruling except in a situation such as this? This seems the most directly applicable application for that question/answer which would lead me to say: "No, the FAQ clearly says you cannot choose to instead snapfire the psycannon."

jms40k wrote:
Can someone enlighten me as to the purpose of this FAQ ruling except in a situation such as this? This seems the most directly applicable application for that question/answer which would lead me to say: "No, the FAQ clearly says you cannot choose to instead snapfire the psycannon."

Tesla weapons on vehicles. Electing to only fire snapshots means you only hit on 6's, which are also those that generate 2 more hits, which could be situationally useful. That's the main example that comes to my mind, anyways. Other uses would be on something like ranger sniper rifles if you want to maximize the AP1 shots you get and are twinlinked via diviniations primaris, or are trying to maximize precision shots on character weapons, or anything that gives you an additional effect on a hit roll of a 6.

And as always since it's GW, it may just be a fairly useless/redundant FAQ answer, of which there are many.

Target wrote:

jms40k wrote:
Can someone enlighten me as to the purpose of this FAQ ruling except in a situation such as this? This seems the most directly applicable application for that question/answer which would lead me to say: "No, the FAQ clearly says you cannot choose to instead snapfire the psycannon."

Tesla weapons on vehicles. Electing to only fire snapshots means you only hit on 6's, which are also those that generate 2 more hits, which could be situationally useful. That's the main example that comes to my mind, anyways. Other uses would be on something like ranger sniper rifles if you want to maximize the AP1 shots you get and are twinlinked via diviniations primaris, or are trying to maximize precision shots on character weapons, or anything that gives you an additional effect on a hit roll of a 6.

And as always since it's GW, it may just be a fairly useless/redundant FAQ answer, of which there are many.

But you get Tesla hits/Sniper hits on 6's anyway - they don't have to be snap shots. Electing to Snap Shot will only ever reduce your likelihood of hitting unless you're also going to throw more dice, like in this situation.

I think it's pretty blatant that you can't choose to use the Heavy mode if you moved, because you'd be choosing to Snap Fire.

The codex allows you to choose between heavy 4 and assault 2.

You are not choosing to snap shot, you are choosing the firing mode for your weapon.

The main reason for the FAQ is because if you have re-rolls and you want rending on a sniper rifle, you want to roll as many 6's as possible, because the other hits that are not rending will not do much to a 2+ save unit.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The codex allows you to choose between heavy 4 and assault 2.

You are not choosing to snap shot, you are choosing the firing mode for your weapon.

And choosing Heavy is exactly the same as choosing to Snap Shot (if you've moved).

The main reason for the FAQ is because if you have re-rolls and you want rending on a sniper rifle, you want to roll as many 6's as possible, because the other hits that are not rending will not do much to a 2+ save unit.

That's your assumption. The same reasoning applies to choosing to use Heavy if you've moved.

rigeld2 wrote:

Target wrote:

jms40k wrote:
Can someone enlighten me as to the purpose of this FAQ ruling except in a situation such as this? This seems the most directly applicable application for that question/answer which would lead me to say: "No, the FAQ clearly says you cannot choose to instead snapfire the psycannon."

Tesla weapons on vehicles. Electing to only fire snapshots means you only hit on 6's, which are also those that generate 2 more hits, which could be situationally useful. That's the main example that comes to my mind, anyways. Other uses would be on something like ranger sniper rifles if you want to maximize the AP1 shots you get and are twinlinked via diviniations primaris, or are trying to maximize precision shots on character weapons, or anything that gives you an additional effect on a hit roll of a 6.

And as always since it's GW, it may just be a fairly useless/redundant FAQ answer, of which there are many.

But you get Tesla hits/Sniper hits on 6's anyway - they don't have to be snap shots. Electing to Snap Shot will only ever reduce your likelihood of hitting unless you're also going to throw more dice, like in this situation.

I think it's pretty blatant that you can't choose to use the Heavy mode if you moved, because you'd be choosing to Snap Fire.

As I said in my original - it only works when combined with rerolls. Snap shots force you to reroll all non 6's, and so maximize your 6's. Tesla weapons are twinlinked, and pretty much all of the other examples are able to combined with the ever present prescience (rerolls to hit for a unit)

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The codex allows you to choose between heavy 4 and assault 2.

You are not choosing to snap shot, you are choosing the firing mode for your weapon.

And choosing Heavy is exactly the same as choosing to Snap Shot (if you've moved).

No it is not.

It is choosing to fire 4 shots instead of 2.

You are not choosing to Snap shot, that is an unfortunate side effect of choosing to get 4 shots. (not that many people would want to fire 4 snap shots instead of 2 regular ones anyway so it is not likely to come up much).

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The codex allows you to choose between heavy 4 and assault 2.

You are not choosing to snap shot, you are choosing the firing mode for your weapon.

And choosing Heavy is exactly the same as choosing to Snap Shot (if you've moved).

No it is not.

It is choosing to fire 4 shots instead of 2.

You are not choosing to Snap shot, that is an unfortunate side effect of choosing to get 4 shots. (not that many people would want to fire 4 snap shots instead of 2 regular ones anyway so it is not likely to come up much).

It actually comes up more then you would think, whenever you're firing psycannons at fliers, you pretty much always just go ahead and move as you need 6's regardless

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The codex allows you to choose between heavy 4 and assault 2.

You are not choosing to snap shot, you are choosing the firing mode for your weapon.

And choosing Heavy is exactly the same as choosing to Snap Shot (if you've moved).

No it is not.

It is choosing to fire 4 shots instead of 2.

You are not choosing to Snap shot, that is an unfortunate side effect of choosing to get 4 shots. (not that many people would want to fire 4 snap shots instead of 2 regular ones anyway so it is not likely to come up much).

You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The codex allows you to choose between heavy 4 and assault 2.

You are not choosing to snap shot, you are choosing the firing mode for your weapon.

And choosing Heavy is exactly the same as choosing to Snap Shot (if you've moved).

No it is not.

It is choosing to fire 4 shots instead of 2.

You are not choosing to Snap shot, that is an unfortunate side effect of choosing to get 4 shots. (not that many people would want to fire 4 snap shots instead of 2 regular ones anyway so it is not likely to come up much).

You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

You may not elect to fire snap shots versus normal, so for something like the re-roll examples you would be unallowed, however, in the case of psycannons, the end result is you're firing snap shots, but that's not the original choice.

Per the rulebook page 51:

"Some weapons can be used in different ways, representing different power settings or types of ammo. Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn."

So I'm allowed to choose to use my psycannon as a heavy weapon each turn - permission granted

Then, same page, under heavy weapons:

"If a model carrying a heavy weapon moved in the preceding movement phase, he can fire in the shooting phase but only as snap shots"

So I'm forced to fire snap shots, I'm not choosing to.

That's the difference between the two examples, the end result may be the same, but since the psycannon has 2 firing modes, which are elected before you fire, you're a heavy weapon - which is now forced to fire snap shots.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The codex allows you to choose between heavy 4 and assault 2.

You are not choosing to snap shot, you are choosing the firing mode for your weapon.

And choosing Heavy is exactly the same as choosing to Snap Shot (if you've moved).

No it is not.

It is choosing to fire 4 shots instead of 2.

You are not choosing to Snap shot, that is an unfortunate side effect of choosing to get 4 shots. (not that many people would want to fire 4 snap shots instead of 2 regular ones anyway so it is not likely to come up much).

You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

In that case you are never able to fire at a Zooming Flyer (without Skyfire) as you are choosing a target that requires Snap Shots and you cannot choose to fire Snap Shots.

rigeld2 wrote:
You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

So you can never move and choose to fire a heavy weapon, as you would be choosing to snap shot?

Target wrote:
You may not elect to fire snap shots versus normal, so for something like the re-roll examples you would be unallowed, however, in the case of psycannons, the end result is you're firing snap shots, but that's not the original choice.

While I understand that many YMDC arguments come down to semantics, I feel the need to point out that this is semantics.

Per the rulebook page 51:

"Some weapons can be used in different ways, representing different power settings or types of ammo. Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn."

So I'm allowed to choose to use my psycannon as a heavy weapon each turn - permission granted

The quoted rule says there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each. The psycannon does not have a separate line in the weapon's profile for each. Permission not granted with this rule.

So I'm forced to fire snap shots, I'm not choosing to.

No, really - you're choosing to fire snap shots so you're not penalized by being forced to resolve as snap shots and you can get 2 extra dice out of the resulting attack.

That's the difference between the two examples, the end result may be the same, but since the psycannon has 2 firing modes, which are elected before you fire, you're a heavy weapon - which is now forced to fire snap shots.

It's not "now forced" it's forced as soon as you move. Which means when you elect to fire the Heavy weapon you're choosing to fire a snap shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

So you can never move and choose to fire a heavy weapon, as you would be choosing to snap shot?

Do you have the option to make a normal shot in that case? See, I figured you'd read the FAQ and my post in context and not try to strawman me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The codex allows you to choose between heavy 4 and assault 2.

You are not choosing to snap shot, you are choosing the firing mode for your weapon.

And choosing Heavy is exactly the same as choosing to Snap Shot (if you've moved).

No it is not.

It is choosing to fire 4 shots instead of 2.

You are not choosing to Snap shot, that is an unfortunate side effect of choosing to get 4 shots. (not that many people would want to fire 4 snap shots instead of 2 regular ones anyway so it is not likely to come up much).

You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

In that case you are never able to fire at a Zooming Flyer (without Skyfire) as you are choosing a target that requires Snap Shots and you cannot choose to fire Snap Shots.

Seriously - context. Read the FAQ, read my post in the context of the FAQ. Understand. Thanks. edit: also, you are not choosing to fire snap shots in this case, you are choosing to fire normally and your shots are resolved as snap shots.

If you choose to fire in a mode after moving that will always result in the same result, you are effectively choosing that result. It seems to interpret things any other way is splitting hais here.

rigeld2 wrote:

Target wrote:
You may not elect to fire snap shots versus normal, so for something like the re-roll examples you would be unallowed, however, in the case of psycannons, the end result is you're firing snap shots, but that's not the original choice.

While I understand that many YMDC arguments come down to semantics, I feel the need to point out that this is semantics.

Per the rulebook page 51:

"Some weapons can be used in different ways, representing different power settings or types of ammo. Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn."

So I'm allowed to choose to use my psycannon as a heavy weapon each turn - permission granted

The quoted rule says there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each. The psycannon does not have a separate line in the weapon's profile for each. Permission not granted with this rule.

So I'm forced to fire snap shots, I'm not choosing to.

No, really - you're choosing to fire snap shots so you're not penalized by being forced to resolve as snap shots and you can get 2 extra dice out of the resulting attack.

That's the difference between the two examples, the end result may be the same, but since the psycannon has 2 firing modes, which are elected before you fire, you're a heavy weapon - which is now forced to fire snap shots.

It's not "now forced" it's forced as soon as you move. Which means when you elect to fire the Heavy weapon you're choosing to fire a snap shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

So you can never move and choose to fire a heavy weapon, as you would be choosing to snap shot?

Do you have the option to make a normal shot in that case? See, I figured you'd read the FAQ and my post in context and not try to strawman me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The codex allows you to choose between heavy 4 and assault 2.

You are not choosing to snap shot, you are choosing the firing mode for your weapon.

And choosing Heavy is exactly the same as choosing to Snap Shot (if you've moved).

No it is not.

It is choosing to fire 4 shots instead of 2.

You are not choosing to Snap shot, that is an unfortunate side effect of choosing to get 4 shots. (not that many people would want to fire 4 snap shots instead of 2 regular ones anyway so it is not likely to come up much).

You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

In that case you are never able to fire at a Zooming Flyer (without Skyfire) as you are choosing a target that requires Snap Shots and you cannot choose to fire Snap Shots.

Seriously - context. Read the FAQ, read my post in the context of the FAQ. Understand. Thanks. edit: also, you are not choosing to fire snap shots in this case, you are choosing to fire normally and your shots are resolved as snap shots.

It's not semantics - it's a distinct difference. You elect to use a heavy weapon, down the rode the snap shot thing comes up. The point you tried to make of "different lines" because the text is on the same line, now THATS some semantics, and silly as you know.

The previous posters point stands, if you move a heavy weapon, you are choosing to fire snap shots. So you may never move with a model equipped with a heavy weapon and still fire, because your choice to move is electing to fire snap shots, after all, you have the option not to, you could stay still.

There's a reason every tournament and every GT i've seen plays it the "you can fire in heavy mode when moving" way...

Target wrote:
It's not semantics - it's a distinct difference. You elect to use a heavy weapon, down the rode the snap shot thing comes up. The point you tried to make of "different lines" because the text is on the same line, now THATS some semantics, and silly as you know.

It's not silly at all - it's absolutely what the rules say.

The previous posters point stands, if you move a heavy weapon, you are choosing to fire snap shots. So you may never move with a model equipped with a heavy weapon and still fire, because your choice to move is electing to fire snap shots, after all, you have the option not to, you could stay still.

No, that's not what the FAQ says at all. Nice attempt to bring a straw man argument into it though. The previous poster's point was wrong, as I pointed out.

There's a reason every tournament and every GT i've seen plays it the "you can fire in heavy mode when moving" way...

Yeah, because there's no way they could possibly be wrong.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

So you can never move and choose to fire a heavy weapon, as you would be choosing to snap shot?

Do you have the option to make a normal shot in that case? See, I figured you'd read the FAQ and my post in context and not try to strawman me.

I meant for Psycannons. if you select Heavy 4 you do not have the option to make normal shots, as you have moved with a heavy weapon.

You do not have a choice between 2 normal or 4 snap shots.

You have a choice between Assault 2 and Heavy 4. Please note the difference.

The FAQ only forbids you taking snap shots when firing a weapon at full BS.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You have the choice to fire 2 normal shots or 4 snap shots.
You choose 4 snap shots.
You've chosen snap shots which the FAQ explicitly forbids.

So you can never move and choose to fire a heavy weapon, as you would be choosing to snap shot?

Do you have the option to make a normal shot in that case? See, I figured you'd read the FAQ and my post in context and not try to strawman me.

I meant for Psycannons. if you select Heavy 4 you do not have the option to make normal shots, as you have moved with a heavy weapon.

You do not have a choice between 2 normal or 4 snap shots.

You have a choice between Assault 2 and Heavy 4. Please note the difference.

The FAQ only forbids you taking snap shots when firing a weapon at full BS.

Correct - you would never have the choice to move and fire Heavy with a Psycannon unless you had Terminator armor (in which case you could not fire Assault per the Codex).
And that's not what the FAQ forbids.

rigeld2 wrote:

Target wrote:
It's not semantics - it's a distinct difference. You elect to use a heavy weapon, down the rode the snap shot thing comes up. The point you tried to make of "different lines" because the text is on the same line, now THATS some semantics, and silly as you know.

It's not silly at all - it's absolutely what the rules say.

The previous posters point stands, if you move a heavy weapon, you are choosing to fire snap shots. So you may never move with a model equipped with a heavy weapon and still fire, because your choice to move is electing to fire snap shots, after all, you have the option not to, you could stay still.

No, that's not what the FAQ says at all. Nice attempt to bring a straw man argument into it though. The previous poster's point was wrong, as I pointed out.

There's a reason every tournament and every GT i've seen plays it the "you can fire in heavy mode when moving" way...

Yeah, because there's no way they could possibly be wrong.

The previous posters point was wrong in your opinion. It wasn't actually wrong, however, it's a good example of why your argument against the psycannon isn't valid.

Q: Can I choose to make a Snap Shot rather than a normal shot?
(p13)
A: No.


That's clear - and that HW trooper CAN make a normal shot, if he doesn't move. So he elected to move, he can't fire a snap shot as he would have been able to make a normal shot. And if you don't agree with forebidding snapshots to moving heavy weapons - then you see my issue with your argument. The psycannon is both a heavy weapon AND an assault weapon, as I quoted the rulebook text, each turn you choose which profile to use, and it doesn't say when. Then I choose at the beginning of the turn I'm using it as a heavy weapon, it's a heavy weapon just like a heavy bolter. I moved. I must fire snapshots, it's not a choice.

Target wrote:
Q: Can I choose to make a Snap Shot rather than a normal shot?
(p13)
A: No.


That's clear - and that HW trooper CAN make a normal shot, if he doesn't move.

The FAQ isn't related to moving, it's related to shooting.

So he elected to move, he can't fire a snap shot as he would have been able to make a normal shot.

There's nothing in the FAQ restricting movement, only shooting choices.

And if you don't agree with forebidding snapshots to moving heavy weapons - then you see my issue with your argument. The psycannon is both a heavy weapon AND an assault weapon, as I quoted the rulebook text, each turn you choose which profile to use, and it doesn't say when. Then I choose at the beginning of the turn I'm using it as a heavy weapon, it's a heavy weapon just like a heavy bolter. I moved. I must fire snapshots, it's not a choice.

Page 51 doesn't apply as there are not separate lines for the weapon (like there are for Missile Launchers for example).
So we look at the codex. The weapon can be fired as either Heavy or Assault - so you pick when you fire. Which is well after movement, not before.
Codex > BRB.

But the FAQ does not restrict you from choosing Heavy 4 over Assault 2.

It just restricts you from choosing to make a Snap Shot rather than a normal shot.

You can not make a normal shot after movement with a Heavy 4 weapon.

 DeathReaper wrote:
But the FAQ does not restrict you from choosing Heavy 4 over Assault 2.

It just restricts you from choosing to make a Snap Shot rather than a normal shot.

You can not make a normal shot after movement with a Heavy 4 weapon.

But you have a choice to make a normal shot with an Assault 2 weapon rather than a Snap Shot with a Heavy 4 weapon.
By choosing the Heavy 4 you are choosing to make a Snap Shot - you cannot unlink the one from the other if you've moved.

Why would you want the 4 shots at BS1 when you can have 2 shots at BS 4?

 kronk wrote:
Why would you want the 4 shots at BS1 when you can have 2 shots at BS 4?

To shoot at flyers.

Ahh... Nice.