5431
Post by: Voodoo_Chile
Hey all, another new Chaos Space Marines question.
If I attach Abaddon to a squad of Terminators with the Mark of Slaanesh and the Icon of Excess, does he also gain Feel No Pain? (For example, this would apply to all Marks and Icons for Abaddon)
I believe he does as the Icon rules state that "All models in the unit with the Mark of.... have the ... rule" and due to Mark of Chaos Ascendant he has all four marks and while attached to that squad he is a model in that unit.
Am I reading this wrong?
I suppose the question can be broken down like this:
1. Do ICs joined to squads benefit from the squads Icon if they have the correct mark?
2. Does Abaddon have all four Marks of Chaos for the purposes of the Icon?
3. Can Abaddon even join a Marked Squad as if the above is true, he does technically have a different Mark of Chaos to the Mark of the Squad? (Mark of Chaos rules state that an Independent Character cannot join a squad with a different Mark of Chaos)
963
Post by: Mannahnin
1. Yes, the icon rules say that all models in the unit benefit. An IC attached is by definition a model in the unit.
2. Yes, Abaddon's rules specify that... "He also has all four Marks of Chaos."
3. Moot due to above.
5431
Post by: Voodoo_Chile
Thanks for confirming that. I reread (and comphrended) the Mark rules and I definitely got it back asswards. Nothing stopping an Abaddon joining a squad with a Mark as there isn't any squad who can take a different Mark to Abaddon.
22054
Post by: Bloodhorror
Heres a fun question...
Abbaddon turns into a Daemon Prince...
Does he get all 4 Mark bonuses  ?
11618
Post by: Boneblade
 Bloodhorror wrote:Heres a fun question...
Abbaddon turns into a Daemon Prince...
Does he get all 4 Mark bonuses ?
He becomes a Daemon Prince dedicated to all four Gods, and therefor benefits simultaneously from all of the subsets ( DP of Tzeentch reroll 1s to save, etc.) With RAW there is no other way to do this until FAQ'd.
He does NOT however gain the benefit of the individual Marks. AKA he does not have +1 to his invul from MoT, and does not gain +1 Toughness from MoN. This is because Daemon Princes themselves can never take Marks. Reread the unit's entry in the army list.
"Must be upgraded to be a: Daemon of. . . " they never purchase Marks directly.
Under the rules for Dark Apotheosis: "If a champion has a Mark of Chaos, the Daemon Prince is instead a Daemon of the same Chaos god." Emphasis: instead. They lose the mark, become dedicated to X god. Therefor Abaddon loses his Marks & the Mark of Chaos Ascendant rule and becomes a Daemon Prince benefitting from the rules of all 4 gods with power armor and the Black Crusader warlord trait.
To OP:
Thank you thank you thank you Thank you thank you thank you Thank you thank you thank you Thank you thank you thank you Thank you thank you thank you Thank you thank you thank you
Abaddon will now have an escort with Feel no Pain, HUZZAH
53575
Post by: 40k-noob
I dont think, Abby can join other squads if they are mark with anything.
RAW says that an IC with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.
While he does have one same Mark, the other three Marks prevent him from joining any Marked unit.
48982
Post by: djdarknoise
40k-noob wrote:I dont think, Abby can join other squads if they are mark with anything.
RAW says that an IC with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.
While he does have one same Mark, the other three Marks prevent him from joining any Marked unit.
I dare you to find a Chaos player that will agree that the Warmaster of the Black Legion, head of 13 Black Crusades, and the most hated and feared Chaos Space Marine in the known galaxy can't join any damn unit he wants.
Abbadon is not marked to one particular god. All the gods normally oppose and hate each other, however Abbadon is blessed by all four.
53575
Post by: 40k-noob
 djdarknoise wrote:40k-noob wrote:I dont think, Abby can join other squads if they are mark with anything.
RAW says that an IC with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.
While he does have one same Mark, the other three Marks prevent him from joining any Marked unit.
I dare you to find a Chaos player that will agree that the Warmaster of the Black Legion, head of 13 Black Crusades, and the most hated and feared Chaos Space Marine in the known galaxy can't join any damn unit he wants.
Abbadon is not marked to one particular god. All the gods normally oppose and hate each other, however Abbadon is blessed by all four.
Fluff is nice...but it is not Rules
Abby is strong enough as is.
11618
Post by: Boneblade
40k-noob wrote: djdarknoise wrote:40k-noob wrote:I dont think, Abby can join other squads if they are mark with anything.
RAW says that an IC with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.
While he does have one same Mark, the other three Marks prevent him from joining any Marked unit.
I dare you to find a Chaos player that will agree that the Warmaster of the Black Legion, head of 13 Black Crusades, and the most hated and feared Chaos Space Marine in the known galaxy can't join any damn unit he wants.
Abbadon is not marked to one particular god. All the gods normally oppose and hate each other, however Abbadon is blessed by all four.
Fluff is nice...but it is not Rules
Abby is strong enough as is.
Your opinion that he is strong enough as is. . is, unsurprisingly, also not Rules.
The Rules as Written:
"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."
Ex:
A Chaos Lord w/ Mark of Khorne may NOT join a unit of Thousand Sons which bear the Mark of Tzeentch.
Abaddon, who has ALL FOUR MARKS, may join any damn unit he wants, because none of them will ever have a different mark than what he bears.
46128
Post by: Happyjew
40k-noob wrote:I dont think, Abby can join other squads if they are mark with anything.
RAW says that an IC with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.
While he does have one same Mark, the other three Marks prevent him from joining any Marked unit.
Not sure I agree with this.
If the rule stated that a unit could not be joined by an IC with a different Mrk, then he would not be ale to join any marked units.
However, sine the rule says that a marked IC cannot join a marked unit with a different Mark, Abby should still be able to join as he is joining a marked unit with the same Mark that he has.
53575
Post by: 40k-noob
Happyjew wrote:40k-noob wrote:I dont think, Abby can join other squads if they are mark with anything.
RAW says that an IC with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.
While he does have one same Mark, the other three Marks prevent him from joining any Marked unit.
Not sure I agree with this.
If the rule stated that a unit could not be joined by an IC with a different Mrk, then he would not be ale to join any marked units.
However, sine the rule says that a marked IC cannot join a marked unit with a different Mark, Abby should still be able to join as he is joining a marked unit with the same Mark that he has.
Lets look at it this way:
Abby has Mark of Khorne - Can he join Slaanesh unit = No
Abby has Mark of Nurgle - Can he join Slaanesh unit = No
Abby has Mark of TZ - Can he join Slaanesh unit = No
Abby has Mark of Slaanesh - Can he join Slaanesh unit = Yes
You have 3 no's and 1 yes.
I would say no he cannot joined any marked units.
11618
Post by: Boneblade
Mother fether.
So Abaddon the Despoiler, Warmaster of Chaos and leader of 13 Black Crusades cannot join any unit which bears a Mark of Chaos.
Let's see how long that holds up after the FAQ.
963
Post by: Mannahnin
40k-noob has a valid point, as I read the RAW. Good catch.
I suspect/hope GW will fix it (or confirm it) in their FAQ, if people ask. Everyone be sure to email them your questions!
11618
Post by: Boneblade
 Mannahnin wrote:40k-noob has a valid point, as I read the RAW. Good catch.
I suspect/hope GW will fix it (or confirm it) in their FAQ, if people ask. Everyone be sure to email them your questions!
Aaannnd sent.
Damn. Hopefully my buds don't try and force this one because I really, really don't agree with it.
53575
Post by: 40k-noob
So what email should I send it to?
The customer service one or is there an FAQ email?
11618
Post by: Boneblade
40k-noob wrote:So what email should I send it to?
The customer service one or is there an FAQ email?
On this page: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat440134a&categoryId=1000018§ion=&aId=3000006
There is information for how to send in an FAQ.
Address is Gamefaqs@gwplc.com
53575
Post by: 40k-noob
Awesome!! Thanks. 
963
Post by: Mannahnin
gamefaqs@gwplc.com
I called and double-checked. The guy I spoke to was interested and said he'd forward the questions on himself as well. He knew about the Plague Zombie question and said where he works at GW they're leaning toward that being a deliberate restriction because enormous units of Plague Zombies would be crazy. He didn't know about the Abaddon issue and agreed it's an issue and should go in the FAQ. I also let him know about the terminators, and he agreed that power fist + combi-weapon being incompatible looks like a mistake.
11618
Post by: Boneblade
That's awesome news, Mannahnin. That would fix two of my three main issues with the new codex. Thank you for the update!
25703
Post by: juraigamer
Abaddon, leader of the 13th black crusade can't currently join any marked unit. No wonder he's having trouble with the imperium.
42053
Post by: Sothas
I completely disagree with 40k noob's point. It says an "IC cannot join"... not "a unit can't be joined." There for, he has a mark. The unit has a mark. Does he have same mark as unit? Yes he does. He also has different marks. However there is no restriction for the squad, only the IC. Because the restriction is IC mark based, he will always have the same mark as the squadhe wwishes to join. This concludes that he can always join any squad.
11618
Post by: Boneblade
Your trying to break down the grammar as if it means something else. As much as I don't like it, and despite the fact that I intend to play in direct contradiction to it, the interpretation stands.
Abaddon will always have 3 marks any given unit does not have.
Therefor he will always be joining a Unit which has a "different" mark than him (at least 3 times).
His post above provides a good example of why this is a problem.
40k-noob wrote:Happyjew wrote:40k-noob wrote:
Lets look at it this way:
Abby has Mark of Khorne - Can he join Slaanesh unit = No
Abby has Mark of Nurgle - Can he join Slaanesh unit = No
Abby has Mark of TZ - Can he join Slaanesh unit = No
Abby has Mark of Slaanesh - Can he join Slaanesh unit = Yes
You have 3 no's and 1 yes.
I would say no he cannot joined any marked units.
In the above example, written as a word problem.. lol
Abaddon has the Mark of Khorne. True.
Abaddon is trying to join the unit of Noise Marines / CSM with Mark of Slaanesh.
An independent character cannot join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.
Shut case.
55036
Post by: Tarrasq
 Sothas wrote:I completely disagree with 40k noob's point. It says an " IC cannot join"... not "a unit can't be joined." There for, he has a mark. The unit has a mark. Does he have same mark as unit? Yes he does. He also has different marks. However there is no restriction for the squad, only the IC. Because the restriction is IC mark based, he will always have the same mark as the squadhe wwishes to join. This concludes that he can always join any squad.
Yes but having the same mark doesnt matter only having a different mark. An unmarked lord can join a unit with a mark whereas a marked unit always has a different mark than Abby and therefore can't join.
Again for the purposes of the rule marks that are the same don't matter.
42053
Post by: Sothas
Hmmm.... I see the point. I feel this wording can go either way. Its a matter of interpretation. Hurray more questions for the FAQ.
46128
Post by: Happyjew
 Boneblade wrote:Your trying to break down the grammar as if it means something else. As much as I don't like it, and despite the fact that I intend to play in direct contradiction to it, the interpretation stands.
Abaddon will always have 3 marks any given unit does not have.
Therefor he will always be joining a Unit which has a "different" mark than him (at least 3 times).
His post above provides a good example of why this is a problem.
40k-noob wrote:Happyjew wrote:40k-noob wrote:
Lets look at it this way:
Abby has Mark of Khorne - Can he join Slaanesh unit = No
Abby has Mark of Nurgle - Can he join Slaanesh unit = No
Abby has Mark of TZ - Can he join Slaanesh unit = No
Abby has Mark of Slaanesh - Can he join Slaanesh unit = Yes
You have 3 no's and 1 yes.
I would say no he cannot joined any marked units.
In the above example, written as a word problem.. lol
Abaddon has the Mark of Khorne. True.
Abaddon is trying to join the unit of Noise Marines / CSM with Mark of Slaanesh.
An independent character cannot join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.
Shut case.
I don't recall saying this... Automatically Appended Next Post: And I will fix the above when I get home and cash use my computer instead of my phone.
11618
Post by: Boneblade
From my phone:
Yeahhh the quote thingy messed up
But the point got across
I see you suffer from the symptoms lol
50283
Post by: twistedbydesign
There was a similar debate on whether or not Abaddon would benefit from Tally of Pestilence because he technically has a mark of nurgle. Other people would say no because it is worded as "Mark of Chaos Ascendant". Either way, unless the unit Abaddon was joining had a Mark of Chaos Ascendent he could not join.
That said I cant see this one holding up very long, Pretty sad when we already need an FAQ, they only had 4 years to proofread the next codex *smirk.
64904
Post by: GoliothOnline
Just as a heads up on this, I believe people are taking things out of context and not reading properly, that these hatred rulings simply affect DAEMONS they are joining... Non Daemons are simply unaffected.
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Post by: Boneblade
GoliothOnline wrote:Just as a heads up on this, I believe people are taking things out of context and not reading properly, that these hatred rulings simply affect DAEMONS they are joining... Non Daemons are simply unaffected.
Not sure what in the 'eff you are talking about, man. The rules on Pg 30 of the new Chaos dex are fairly clear, otherwise I'd still be in this thread arguing tooth and nail.
Relevant line:
"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."
Nowhere in this section, on this page or in this codex is there a specific restriction (or permission) regarding Daemons one way or another. However, in the Daemons codex & FAQ there are plenty of rules stating why ICs from other Codices / dedicated to other Gods cannot join their units.
1) Abaddon could never join a unit of Chaos Daemons as he is not from Codex: Chaos Daemons
2) Abaddon cannot join any Marked unit from Codex: Chaos Space Marines (6th ed) as he will always have at least 3 different Marks than what they have (as illustrated in posts above)
3) No one who plays with me cares and besides which it'll be FAQ'd to death and hopefully soon.
64904
Post by: GoliothOnline
Boneblade wrote:GoliothOnline wrote:Just as a heads up on this, I believe people are taking things out of context and not reading properly, that these hatred rulings simply affect DAEMONS they are joining... Non Daemons are simply unaffected.
Not sure what in the 'eff you are talking about, man. The rules on Pg 30 of the new Chaos dex are fairly clear, otherwise I'd still be in this thread arguing tooth and nail.
Relevant line:
"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."
Nowhere in this section, on this page or in this codex is there a specific restriction (or permission) regarding Daemons one way or another. However, in the Daemons codex & FAQ there are plenty of rules stating why ICs from other Codices / dedicated to other Gods cannot join their units.
1) Abaddon could never join a unit of Chaos Daemons as he is not from Codex: Chaos Daemons
2) Abaddon cannot join any Marked unit from Codex: Chaos Space Marines (6th ed) as he will always have at least 3 different Marks than what they have (as illustrated in posts above)
3) No one who plays with me cares and besides which it'll be FAQ'd to death and hopefully soon.
Last I checked from the older codex rules Mark of Chaos Ascendant, wasn't itself listed as all four marks or for that matter having the name of all four marks... It simply incurred the benefits of all 4 marks =/ As for the Daemon rules several units in the CSM codex have the Daemon rules actually lol for instance, Warp Talons!
53575
Post by: 40k-noob
GoliothOnline wrote: Boneblade wrote:GoliothOnline wrote:Just as a heads up on this, I believe people are taking things out of context and not reading properly, that these hatred rulings simply affect DAEMONS they are joining... Non Daemons are simply unaffected.
Not sure what in the 'eff you are talking about, man. The rules on Pg 30 of the new Chaos dex are fairly clear, otherwise I'd still be in this thread arguing tooth and nail.
Relevant line:
"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."
Nowhere in this section, on this page or in this codex is there a specific restriction (or permission) regarding Daemons one way or another. However, in the Daemons codex & FAQ there are plenty of rules stating why ICs from other Codices / dedicated to other Gods cannot join their units.
1) Abaddon could never join a unit of Chaos Daemons as he is not from Codex: Chaos Daemons
2) Abaddon cannot join any Marked unit from Codex: Chaos Space Marines (6th ed) as he will always have at least 3 different Marks than what they have (as illustrated in posts above)
3) No one who plays with me cares and besides which it'll be FAQ'd to death and hopefully soon.
Last I checked from the older codex rules Mark of Chaos Ascendant, wasn't itself listed as all four marks or for that matter having the name of all four marks... It simply incurred the benefits of all 4 marks =/ As for the Daemon rules several units in the CSM codex have the Daemon rules actually lol for instance, Warp Talons!
It would help if you would bring yourself up to date on the Codexes that are relevant to the debate. Last you checked, was by your own words "the older codex" and as such no longer the official rules for Chaos Space Marines.
24436
Post by: CrashCanuck
I don't have my codex with me, but doesn't it say that an IC may only join a marked unit if it has the same mark, I don't believe there is any rule prohibiting you from joining if you have a different mark, only that you must have the same mark as the squad. Since Abbadon's rule says he has all 4 marks he therefore should be able to join any marked squad.
IC goes to join unit
unit has mark of "____"
does IC have same mark as unit
yes
IC may join
no
IC may not join
that is my impression of the rules.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
 CrashCanuck wrote:I don't have my codex with me, but doesn't it say that an IC may only join a marked unit if it has the same mark, I don't believe there is any rule prohibiting you from joining if you have a different mark, only that you must have the same mark as the squad. Since Abbadon's rule says he has all 4 marks he therefore should be able to join any marked squad.
IC goes to join unit
unit has mark of "____"
does IC have same mark as unit
yes
IC may join
no
IC may not join
that is my impression of the rules.
No, the rule explicitly prohibits if you have a different mark... So since your post is based off of a flawed assumption...
11618
Post by: Boneblade
CrashCanuck wrote:I don't have my codex with me, but doesn't it say that an IC may only join a marked unit if it has the same mark, I don't believe there is any rule prohibiting you from joining if you have a different mark, only that you must have the same mark as the squad. Since Abbadon's rule says he has all 4 marks he therefore should be able to join any marked squad.
IC goes to join unit
unit has mark of "____"
does IC have same mark as unit
yes
IC may join
no
IC may not join
that is my impression of the rules.
Just read the thread bro.
Find 40k-noobs post. It's like he has a whole flowchart.
23153
Post by: iron_freak220
I agree that the rule can be interpreted either way, but I do feel that Abaddon will be allowed, through FAQ, to join any squad he wants. He's freakin' Abaddon after all.
24436
Post by: CrashCanuck
My bad, I read it wrong, and as I opened with, didn't have my codex with me, now that I check it is clear that Abby cannot join a unit that has any mark.
53292
Post by: Kevlar
Anyone who would try to say Abaddon can not join any marked unit would indeed be a 40k noob.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Kevlar wrote:Anyone who would try to say Abaddon can not join any marked unit would indeed be a 40k noob.
Or they'd be reading the rules.
Perhaps you'd care to argue with rules instead of insults?
30265
Post by: SoloFalcon1138
Another variant to the Chaos Ascendant rule: does he let cult troops become troop units?
47462
Post by: rigeld2
 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Another variant to the Chaos Ascendant rule: does he let cult troops become troop units?
No, he isn't a Lord with a Mark. His rules are explicit as to who he makes Troops.
34666
Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Kevlar wrote:Anyone who would try to say Abaddon can not join any marked unit would indeed be a 40k noob.
Abby cannot join a marked unit because it currently breaks the rules set forth in the codex, if that makes me a 40k noob than by default it must make you an old maid.
All fluff nostalgic crap aside Abby cannot lead marked squads atm, this may be FAQ'd it may not. It wouldn't be the first time a writer has made a major goof and noone caught onto it.
12914
Post by: FoxPhoenix135
I only read the first page, but here is a technicality that might work for Abby:
"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."
He doesn't have "a" (singular) different mark, he has more than one different marks than the unit he joins. Normally, the rules for the other units limit how many marks they can have. In abaddon's case, he doesn't meet the criteria to be denied the joining of a marked unit, because he doesn't have "a" mark, he has several. By the most literal definition of the rules, he should be allowed to join marked units. At least until an FAQ tells us otherwise.
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Post by: rigeld2
Not really - he has all 4 Marks. Three of those 4 are different from the target unit.
12914
Post by: FoxPhoenix135
Right, but he doesn't have just one. By the most literal definition of the rule, he needs to have a single different mark. More than 1 different mark means that he can join units.
Does 1 = 4? No.
Does Abbadon have "a" (one) mark? No. Therefore, he can join units with marks, because only Independent characters with 1 mark suffer this limitation.
53292
Post by: Kevlar
 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Right, but he doesn't have just one. By the most literal definition of the rule, he needs to have a single different mark. More than 1 different mark means that he can join units.
Does 1 = 4? No.
Does Abbadon have "a" (one) mark? No. Therefore, he can join units with marks, because only Independent characters with 1 mark suffer this limitation.
Good catch, it seems they built in an exception just for Abaddon!
Glad we can put this one to rest!
Abaddon does not have "a" different mark of chaos, he has three. So by RAW there is nothing keeping him from joining marked units. For all you RAW sticklers!
34666
Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Kevlar wrote: FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Right, but he doesn't have just one. By the most literal definition of the rule, he needs to have a single different mark. More than 1 different mark means that he can join units.
Does 1 = 4? No.
Does Abbadon have "a" (one) mark? No. Therefore, he can join units with marks, because only Independent characters with 1 mark suffer this limitation.
Good catch, it seems they built in an exception just for Abaddon!
Glad we can put this one to rest!
Abaddon does not have "a" different mark of chaos, he has three. So by RAW there is nothing keeping him from joining marked units. For all you RAW sticklers!
Actually he does have a different mark. In fact he can have a Different mark three times. It's all about how you would like to word a sentence.
Abbadon cannot join a squad of Berserkers because he has a mark of Tzeentch,a Mark of Nurgle,and a Mark of Slanesh.
Note that each of those is a different mark ...
12914
Post by: FoxPhoenix135
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Kevlar wrote: FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Right, but he doesn't have just one. By the most literal definition of the rule, he needs to have a single different mark. More than 1 different mark means that he can join units. Does 1 = 4? No. Does Abbadon have "a" (one) mark? No. Therefore, he can join units with marks, because only Independent characters with 1 mark suffer this limitation.
Good catch, it seems they built in an exception just for Abaddon! Glad we can put this one to rest! Abaddon does not have "a" different mark of chaos, he has three. So by RAW there is nothing keeping him from joining marked units. For all you RAW sticklers!
Actually he does have a different mark. In fact he can have a Different mark three times. It's all about how you would like to word a sentence. Abbadon cannot join a squad of Berserkers because he has a mark of Tzeentch,a Mark of Nurgle,and a Mark of Slanesh. Note that each of those is a different mark ...
You are right, it is about how they worded the sentence. He has 3 marks that are different, which is not equal to one mark that is different. RAW in the strictest, most literal meaning; he can join any marked unit he pleases. It is a technicality, but I believe Abaddon being restricted from joining any unit with a mark is not how it was intended. Until an FAQ tells us otherwise, this is a solid case for anybody who supports Abaddon joining marked units. If they wanted to prevent this, they should have given him additional clarification in the rules, but I suspect that they never even considered somebody telling another that Abaddon could not join marked units. If Abaddon is supposed to be subject to this restriction, the rule should read: "An Independent Character with ONE OR MORE Mark(s) of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos," or, "A unit with a Mark of Chaos can only be joined by Independent Character that has ONLY the same Mark of Chaos in addition to the Independent Character's Wargear and other Options" (or something to that effect)
47462
Post by: rigeld2
If he has a mark that is different, the requirements for the rule are met. The fact that he has 3 different marks is irrelevant.
The rule doesn't read the way you're trying to make it read.
55036
Post by: Tarrasq
It doesnt matter if abbadon has multiple different marks it only matters that the unit he tries joins has a different mark, side stepping this issue nicely as a marked unit that Abbadon could try to join can only have one mark that is different.
That being said the idea that multiple different marks makes any difference is equivalent to telling a 5 year old that they can't have a cookie and them reponding with "You didn't say I couldn't have TWO cookies." Having two cookies doesn't mean you didn't have a cookie. In the same way having multiple different marks doesn't mean you don't have a mark that is different. One different mark is all it takes, more than one is just icing on the cake.
60982
Post by: armis
I think the wording is way too condensed to make either option RAW.
"All marks must match" does not explicitly follow from the rules blurb any more than "check squad for mark that abaddon does not have" does.
53292
Post by: Kevlar
 Tarrasq wrote:It doesnt matter if abbadon has multiple different marks it only matters that the unit he tries joins has a different mark, side stepping this issue nicely as a marked unit that Abbadon could try to join can only have one mark that is different.
That being said the idea that multiple different marks makes any difference is equivalent to telling a 5 year old that they can't have a cookie and them reponding with "You didn't say I couldn't have TWO cookies." Having two cookies doesn't mean you didn't have a cookie. In the same way having multiple different marks doesn't mean you don't have a mark that is different. One different mark is all it takes, more than one is just icing on the cake.
I guess you haven't been on YMDC very long. Pedantic nuances like this are what some of the people in this forum thrive on, and the arguments usually boil down to one or two posters exchanging "Is not!" and "Is too!" until a mod locks the thread. It doesn't take long to figure out who those posters are, and to ignore their opinions.
50029
Post by: Aipoch
Playing "goldfish" with Abaddon and Noise Marines:
Abaddon: Got any Khorne?
Noise Marines: Go fish.
Abaddon: Damn...
Noise Marines: Got any Slaanesh?
Abaddon: Bitch please, you know I do.
Noise Marines: Hell yeah, come join the party.
Eh? EHH?? 
64332
Post by: Bausk
Aipoch wrote:Playing "goldfish" with Abaddon and Noise Marines:
Abaddon: Got any Khorne?
Noise Marines: Go fish.
Abaddon: Damn...
Noise Marines: Got any Slaanesh?
Abaddon: Bitch please, you know I do.
Noise Marines: Hell yeah, come join the party.
Eh? EHH??
LoL
Yeah thats pretty much it. This version of his Mark of chaos asendant actually states he has all the marks so he has all four. Which means he can join any CSM unit regardless of mark because he has em all. I dig the fact that if he goes all DP he ends up hating himself and hates all daemons that are marked, basically becomes emo daemon don. lol.
963
Post by: Mannahnin
But the restriction on joining units doesn't ask if the IC has the same mark; it asks if they have a DIFFERENT mark, and says if so, they can't join.
This leaves Abby as technically unable to join any marked unit, as he has three different marks they DON'T have.
64332
Post by: Bausk
Mannahnin wrote:But the restriction on joining units doesn't ask if the IC has the same mark; it asks if they have a DIFFERENT mark, and says if so, they can't join.
This leaves Abby as technically unable to join any marked unit, as he has three different marks they DON'T have.
Oh, I thought it was the IC cannot join a unit unless it has the same mark. Not if it has any other mark. Well it makes more sense thinking about it, unmarked ICs should be able to join any unit. That's funny as, poor Don doesn't get to play with the cool kids. lol
9527
Post by: Dinamarth
Mark of Chaos Ascendant: "....He also has all four Marks of Chaos..."
They should change to: "...He has the benefits of all four Marks of Chaos..."
47462
Post by: rigeld2
No, they should just add a line to his rules saying he's allowed to join any Marked unit if that's what they intend.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
rigeld2 wrote:No, they should just add a line to his rules saying he's allowed to join any Marked unit if that's what they intend.
Agreed, however if they didn't want him to lead marked units than it's written proper lol
47462
Post by: rigeld2
"If that's what they intend" :-)
46128
Post by: Happyjew
Actually from a fluff standpoint it makes sense that he cannot join any marked units. He's worked hard to gain power from all Four, he shouldn't be showing favoritism by joining a squad of a specific God.
63764
Post by: Wraithdrad
I think this all hinges on what the word "different" means. Allow me a bit of word-nerdiness.
Having looked at Abaddon again, and mulled it over, I'm rethinking this. Here's why.
From the Oxford English Dictionary:
Different: "Having characters or qualities which diverge from one another; having unlike or distinguishing attributes; not of the same kind; not alike; of other nature, form, or quality."
So, using the first bit of the definition for "difference," a unit has a different mark from Abaddon if it has "characters or qualities which diverge from one another." The use of the word "different" should not be read to mean "Does this unit have a Mark that doesn't match the HQ's mark?" but rather "Does this unit have a mark that differs from the Mark of the HQ, a Mark that the HQ does not have?"
Therefore, Abaddon can join any unit, because no unit has a Mark that differs from Abaddon's Marks.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Wraithdrad wrote:Therefore, Abaddon can join any unit, because no unit has a Mark that differs from Abaddon's Marks.
Really?
All units have a Mark that matches the Mark of Chaos Ascendant? Or all units have all four Marks? Those are the only two ways for them not to be different.
Does a Khrone Marked Berserker unit's Mark differ from Abaddon's Mark of Nurgle? What about his Mark of Tzeentch? Or his Mark of Slannesh?
63764
Post by: Wraithdrad
This is why I've refrained from posting on YMDC before. The last sentence of my post makes a lot more sense in the context of the *entire* post.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Wraithdrad wrote:This is why I've refrained from posting on YMDC before. The last sentence of my post makes a lot more sense in the context of the *entire* post.
I read your entire post.
I think you're misusing/misunderstanding the rule on page 30 of the Codex.
An IC may not join a unit with a different Mark. Every Marked unit will differ in qualities from Abaddon's Mark of Chaos Ascendant.
63764
Post by: Wraithdrad
So, you're saying that Abaddon has the Mark of Chaos Ascendent, and that since no unit has that Mark all units with Marks will differ. Right?
I'm saying that the Mark of Chaos Ascendent is a special rule that grants Abaddon all four Marks.
If we disagreee on that, we can't even discuss how to use the word "different."
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Wraithdrad wrote:So, you're saying that Abaddon has the Mark of Chaos Ascendent, and that since no unit has that Mark all units with Marks will differ. Right?
I'm saying that the Mark of Chaos Ascendent is a special rule that grants Abaddon all four Marks.
If we disagreee on that, we can't even discuss how to use the word "different."
I'll fold on that since it was a stretch and pointless stance.
Your assertion is that Adbaddon's Mark of Nurgle does not differ from a Mark of Khorne on that Berserker unit over there. Discuss.
(I say that's your assertion because an IC with a Mark may not join a unit with a different Mark - not a Mark that differs [wording matters]).
Yes, his Mark of Khorne is identical. He has other Marks that indisputably differ. Page 30 says that if they differ he cannot join.
63764
Post by: Wraithdrad
I'm not asserting that Abaddon's Mark of Nurgle does not differ from a Mark of Khorne. I'm asserting that that's not what the rule on pg 30 is talking about. Nowhere does the rulebook say that the Marks of an IC have to match the Marks of a Unit he joins.
What does it mean for a unit to have a "different" Mark of Chaos than the IC?
Returning to my original argument, the primary sense of "different" is "having characters or qualities which diverge from one another." In context, I'm reading that to mean that the Mark of Chaos on the unit must have "characters or qualities which diverge" from those of the IC.
Crucially, the pg 30 rule cares whether or not the Mark on the Unit is different. It doesn't care whether the Mark on the HQ is different. Thus, if Abaddon joins a unit of Berzerkers, their Mark of Khorne grants them special rules. Abaddon's Mark of Khorne grants him the same special rules. Thus, the Mark on the Berzerker unit is not "different" in the way the rule specifies. Abaddon simply has extra Marks, something the rule on pg 30 doesn't even address.
The crux: "not different" does not mean "synonymous."
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Why are you ignoring the other Marks?
Abandon has another Mark - you must test to see if that Mark is different from the Units as well.
63764
Post by: Wraithdrad
Why?
The rule specifies that the Mark on the unit can't be different. It doesn't specify that the Mark on the HQ can't be different.
If the one Mark on the unit is not different from a Mark the HQ has, the rule is satisfied.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Wraithdrad wrote:Why?
The rule specifies that the Mark on the unit can't be different. It doesn't specify that the Mark on the HQ can't be different.
If the one Mark on the unit is not different from a Mark the HQ has, the rule is satisfied.
The HQ has 4 Marks.
You've compared 1. How did you pick that one?
Why did you stop at one?
63764
Post by: Wraithdrad
Because, as I read it, the only Mark that needs to be analyzed is the Mark on the unit.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Wraithdrad wrote:Because, as I read it, the only Mark that needs to be analyzed is the Mark on the unit.
But you must compare it to something, right? Because you must decide if its different.
You have 4 things to compare it to on the other side of the equation.
How do you decide which one?
Why do you stop at one?
63764
Post by: Wraithdrad
Again, because I don't read "not different" as "synonymous."
If the HQ has a Mark that is the same as the unit, the condition is satisfied. The extra Marks are superfluous.
I think we've reached rock bottom here, and it all goes back to my original post. The key issue is how you define the word "different" in the rule. If you want "not different" to mean "synonymous," Abaddon can't join any Marked unit. I'm arguing that that's a severely limited definition of "different."
53575
Post by: 40k-noob
Wraithdrad wrote:Again, because I don't read "not different" as "synonymous."
If the HQ has a Mark that is the same as the unit, the condition is satisfied. The extra Marks are superfluous.
I think we've reached rock bottom here, and it all goes back to my original post. The key issue is how you define the word "different" in the rule. If you want "not different" to mean "synonymous," Abaddon can't join any Marked unit. I'm arguing that that's a severely limited definition of "different."
The condition is not satisfied because pg makes no mention of the two Marks having to be the same.
PG 30 is only concerned with "different" Marks, Abby has 4 Marks, unit has 1, automatically he will 3 Mark are "different."
63764
Post by: Wraithdrad
The rule cares whether the Mark of the unit is different, not whether all the Marks of the HQ are the same.
And this is the point where I give up. My argument is plastered all over the page, and I won't bother repeating bits of it anymore.
Make the call that you want. Just be aware that the way one reads the word "different" isn't a clear cut issue.
46128
Post by: Happyjew
An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.
The question is when they say "a" Mark of Chaos are they talking about a single mark (as all other IC's would have) or any mark (as Abbadon only would have).
11618
Post by: Boneblade
Grammar, it's hard dudes.
But I suggest reading the first page. Like.. really. You are beating a very dead horse, and using only a flimsy English stick to do so. Have some respect.
50029
Post by: Aipoch
So pg. 30 seems to be the only place I can find which provides anything useful in terms of marks and IC's. Verbatim, because the devil is in the details:
"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."
That's it, nothing more. Any argument which states anything along the lines of " but (x) unit doesn't also have (y) Mark of Chaos" is folly, as the rule in question does not talk about units joining IC's with a different mark, nor does it provide a catch-all statement, such as "In addition, the IC may not have another Mark of Chaos the unit he joins does not have".
I grant that the area is in need of clarification. However, GW was kind enough to get rid of the "Ascendant" icon, and actually state he has all of the Marks of Chaos. As such, most can admit the following truths (lets use Noise Marines again):
1. Does the IC Abaddon have a Mark of Slaanesh? Yes
2. Do Units of Noise Marines have a Mark of Slaanesh? Yes
3. Does Abaddon also have marks of Nurgle, Khorne, and Tzeentch? Yes
4. Does Abaddon having marks of Nurgle, Khorne, and Tzeentch stop him from having a Mark of Slaanesh? No
5. Does the rule on pg.30 require anything beyond the IC having the same Mark of Chaos as the Unit it joins? No
6. Is there a restriction on Units joining IC's with a different Mark of Chaos? No, as Units do not join IC's; IC's join Units.
7. Is there an explicit rule which says an IC with more than one Mark of Chaos may not join Units? No
In my opinion, RAW is not explicit enough to say Abaddon is not allowed to join any unit he wishes.
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Post by: jegsar
I say we just look at the wording in other languages where it translates to "an IC cannot join a marked unit unless the unit has the same mark" until the faq like the old chaos faq that made the DP a FMC.
Or you apply common reasonable sense like you always do when playing with toys.
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Post by: djdarknoise
redacted.
12914
Post by: FoxPhoenix135
 jegsar wrote:I say we just look at the wording in other languages where it translates to "an IC with a markcannot join a marked unit unless the unit has the same mark" until the faq like the old chaos faq that made the DP a FMC. Or you apply common reasonable sense like you always do when playing with toys.
That's how I'd fix it, because unmarked lords can join marked units.
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Post by: kcwm
I agree with Wraith.
I look at it like this. I'm a father, brother, uncle, and nephew. If I sign up for a special group that's specifically for father's and fathers only, they aren't going to exclude me because I'm someone's brother, uncle, or nephew. I fulfill the requirement that I be a father.
The same thing applies for the mark restriction. If Abaddon joins a unit of Khorne Bersekers, he meets the requirement that he has the same mark as they do. The other marks no longer apply because the requirement to have the matching mark is fulfilled. The other marks don't cancel out.
It baffles me that people are arguing this, even in YMDC. Well, not if you consider that some people want to argue the smallest, niggling detail until they are blue in the face because they haven't anything better to do.
46128
Post by: Happyjew
 kcwm wrote:he meets the requirement that he has the same mark as they do. The other marks no longer apply because the requirement to have the matching mark is fulfilled. The other marks don't cancel out. .
Except the rue doesn't say they have to have the same mark, it says they cannot have a different mark.
53292
Post by: Kevlar
Happyjew wrote:An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.
The question is when they say "a" Mark of Chaos are they talking about a single mark (as all other IC's would have) or any mark (as Abbadon only would have).
They are obviously talking about "a" single mark.
The condition that needs to be satisfied is the HQ must have "a" mark of chaos.
Abaddon has "a" mark of chaos so that condition is met. Actually he has all of them but that is insignificant in reading this rule.
The second condition is a model can not joint a unit with a different mark of chaos.
Since Abaddon has all the marks of chaos there is no way possible for him to ever join a unit with a different mark of chaos.
There is no other literal way to read this rule.
This problem is easily solved by applying boolean algebra.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Kevlar wrote:Happyjew wrote:An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.
The question is when they say "a" Mark of Chaos are they talking about a single mark (as all other IC's would have) or any mark (as Abbadon only would have).
They are obviously talking about "a" single mark.
The condition that needs to be satisfied is the HQ must have "a" mark of chaos.
Abaddon has "a" mark of chaos so that condition is met. Actually he has all of them but that is insignificant in reading this rule.
The second condition is a model can not joint a unit with a different mark of chaos.
Since Abaddon has all the marks of chaos there is no way possible for him to ever join a unit with a different mark of chaos.
There is no other literal way to read this rule.
This problem is easily solved by applying boolean algebra.
Except there is. When he joins a unit with a Mark of Khorne, that Mark is different from his Make of Nurgle.
Explain why you don't compare all 4 Marks. Explain how you pick which Mark to compare.
53292
Post by: Kevlar
rigeld2 wrote:
Except there is. When he joins a unit with a Mark of Khorne, that Mark is different from his Make of Nurgle.
Explain why you don't compare all 4 Marks. Explain how you pick which Mark to compare.
You are trying to apply the inverse of the rule, which is not what the rule states. The rule does not care one bit what extra marks the character has. That is not in any way part of the condition of satisfying the rule.
An Independant Character with "A" mark of chaos may not join a unit with "A different" mark of Chaos.
There is no way possible for Abaddon to join a unit with a different mark of Chaos than his since he has all marks of chaos.
If the unit had all marks of chaos then there would be no way for say a Khorne lord to join that unit, but that isn't the situation here, now is it.
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Post by: rigeld2
Abby has a Mark of Nurgle. He wants to join a unit with a Mark of Khorne.
You're allowing that.
Why?
53292
Post by: Kevlar
rigeld2 wrote:Abby has a Mark of Nurgle. He wants to join a unit with a Mark of Khorne.
You're allowing that.
Why?
Read the rule. Him having the mark of nurgle has no bearing on him joining a unit with the mark of khorne. As long as he has the mark of khorne the rule is satisfyed. But you seem to want to repeatedly ignore that.
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Post by: rigeld2
Kevlar wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Abby has a Mark of Nurgle. He wants to join a unit with a Mark of Khorne.
You're allowing that.
Why?
Read the rule. Him having the mark of nurgle has no bearing on him joining a unit with the mark of khorne. As long as he has the mark of khorne the rule is satisfyed. But you seem to want to repeatedly ignore that.
S the unit having a different Mark is a-okay?
55036
Post by: Tarrasq
I'd like to point out the guy who quoted the oxford definition of different picked out one part of the definition and ignored the rest of it. Thanks for the laugh there.
There is a very good reason GW doesnt want Abby in a marked unit. They don't want Abby to benefit from Icons. Imagine him with FNP what a deathstar that would be. So just suck it up and stick abby in a unit of unmarked chosen he just made troops.
--
Yes they are talking about "a" single mark. The unit can't have a single mark that's different from a single mark that Abby has.
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Post by: Kevlar
Tarrasq wrote:
I'd like to point out the guy who quoted the oxford definition of different picked out one part of the definition and ignored the rest of it. Thanks for the laugh there.
There is a very good reason GW doesnt want Abby in a marked unit. They don't want Abby to benefit from Icons. Imagine him with FNP what a deathstar that would be. So just suck it up and stick abby in a unit of unmarked chosen he just made troops.
--
Yes they are talking about "a" single mark. The unit can't have a single mark that's different from a single mark that Abby has.
You are right, no unit in the chaos codex can ever have a different mark than Abaddon has, because he has all of them.
Also, if "they" don't want Abaddon to have FNP they better take away his champion of chaos rule, and make him immune to beneficial psychic powers.
But I suspect "they" is really just "you".
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Except they do have a different Mark because the unit cannot have all of them.
You're assuming that a single Mark satisfies the rule and that no further comparisons are made. You haven't backed that up with a reason other than to mock me.
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Post by: Kevlar
rigeld2 wrote:Except they do have a different Mark because the unit cannot have all of them.
You're assuming that a single Mark satisfies the rule and that no further comparisons are made. You haven't backed that up with a reason other than to mock me.
The rule says "A". I don't know how else to back that up. It only cares about "A" single mark, that is all you need to satisfy the rule.
Are you interpreting the rule saying "All" his marks must match the unit?
If so that would be an incorrect interpretation.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Kevlar wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Except they do have a different Mark because the unit cannot have all of them.
You're assuming that a single Mark satisfies the rule and that no further comparisons are made. You haven't backed that up with a reason other than to mock me.
The rule says "A". I don't know how else to back that up. It only cares about "A" single mark, that is all you need to satisfy the rule.
Are you interpreting the rule saying "All" his marks must match the unit?
If so that would be an incorrect interpretation.
And I can point to "A" Mark that the unit has different from the IC. Every time, without fail.
53292
Post by: Kevlar
rigeld2 wrote:Kevlar wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Except they do have a different Mark because the unit cannot have all of them.
You're assuming that a single Mark satisfies the rule and that no further comparisons are made. You haven't backed that up with a reason other than to mock me.
The rule says "A". I don't know how else to back that up. It only cares about "A" single mark, that is all you need to satisfy the rule.
Are you interpreting the rule saying "All" his marks must match the unit?
If so that would be an incorrect interpretation.
And I can point to "A" Mark that the unit has different from the IC. Every time, without fail.
And you would be reading the rule backwards, again.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."
Either I can point to a Mark the unit has different from the IC, or I can point to a Mark the IC has different from the unit. Either way, there's a difference.
Abby has a Mark of Nurgle. You're allowing him to join that unit with a Mark of Khorne. The IC in this example has a different Mark from the unit, and yet you're allowing him to join.
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Rigeld is right on this one, with the way the rules currently are.
40808
Post by: decoste007xt
I don't see why the leader of the Black Legion is restricted to Non-cult choices. I know fluff and gameplay are often on two seperate planes, but the all power HQ in the Codex restricted to joining most of your units just seems weird.
I don't see it being any stronger than most armies tossing their main HQ in a powerful squad. Preferred Enemy Space Marines does make him more powerful, but he's not as strong as he used to be.
963
Post by: Mannahnin
Power has nothing to do with it. I think he probably SHOULD be allowed to join them. But when I read the rules it becomes apparent that he currently can't.
47372
Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
The difference is,
The rule isint "A model must have the same mark"
Its "The model CANT have a different mark" So while he does have the same marks as every unit, he also has different marks from any unit.
It would be different if the rule required him to have the same mark.
49515
Post by: WarlordRob117
This has to be the silliest arguement in rule application
All fluff aside here is what the entry says:
"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."
Abaddons Mark entry says this verbatim:
"He also has all four marks of chaos."
Example: Abby is planning to assault a unit of Terminators armed with power fists. In the movement phase he moves into coherency with a unit of berzerkers. Abaddon has the mark of khorne... the berzerkers have the mark of khorne. Abaddon has successfully moved into coherency with the berzerkers
Anyone need anymore examples?
Lets stop trying to something that isnt there save our breath. We all know what is going to happen in a few months time, as we see Abby jumping from berzerkers, to rhubric marines, to noise marines, to plague marines as he pleases. Just play abaddon as he is supposed to played the Warmaster of Chaos.
52205
Post by: PrinceOfMadness
Throwing in my two cents.
By pure RAW, it seems pretty clear (to me) that Abaddon's Mark of Chaos Ascendant is 'different' from other marks, both in that no other unit has access to the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, and in that Abaddon will always have three Marks that are different from the unit he is joining. However, it also seems pretty clear (again, to me) that Abaddon is intended to be able to join any unit he damn well pleases (else why give him INDEPENDENT Character status). Feel free to argue about it until faces (fingers?) turn blue, that's how I plan on playing it in my local group.
963
Post by: Mannahnin
Fluff-wise, one could also argue that as the master of the Black Legion, his focus is on all the powers, and that he wouldn't hang out with a unit devoted to just one of them.
It could also be intended as a limit on him, balance-wise. They've certainly given Chaos unnecessary limitations and drawbacks elsewhere in the book.
49515
Post by: WarlordRob117
The problem isnt with the Independent character... the problem is with the unit. Can Kharne join a unit of plague marines? no because the plague marines have a different mark than kharne does. That is how the rule is written. So it is written, so shall it be done.
963
Post by: Mannahnin
"You smell like Khorne, eww."
53575
Post by: 40k-noob
The application of the rule on pg 30 continues to misunderstood.
The rule on pg 30 does not grant an IC permission to join a group because they both share the same Mark, that permission is already granted via the IC rules as per the BRB.
The rule on Page 30 is a RESTRICTION to the BRB IC rules.
If Abby moves into within 2" of any marked unit, you do not check to see if the unit has that same Mark as Abby, you check to see if the unit has a Mark that differs from Abby and the answer to that question will always be yes because he has all four. Therefor Abby must remain 2 or more inches away from any marked unit.
At least until a new FAQ comes out.
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Post by: rigeld2
 WarlordRob117 wrote:
Example: Abby is planning to assault a unit of Terminators armed with power fists. In the movement phase he moves into coherency with a unit of berzerkers. Abaddon has the mark of khorne... the berzerkers have the mark of khorne. Abaddon has successfully moved into coherency with the berzerkers
Anyone need anymore examples?
The berserkers do not have a Mark of Nurgle, therefore the unit has a different Mark then the IC has.
As for intent - I see arguments for both sides of how it "should" be played.
49515
Post by: WarlordRob117
40k-noob wrote:
If Abby moves into within 2" of any marked unit, you do not check to see if the unit has that same Mark as Abby, you check to see if the unit has a Mark that differs from Abby and the answer to that question will always be yes because he has all four. Therefor Abby must remain 2 or more inches away from any marked unit.
Exactly... he has all four marks... the criteria isnt that the independent character has a different mark than the unit (what you are referencing by him having all four)... what matters is that the unit cannot have a different mark than him...
"The berserkers do not have a Mark of Nurgle, therefore the unit has a different Mark then the IC has."
again this is a poor example and holds no water. Berzerkers are not equipped with that mark... nor can they be given that... the point of the refernce focus' on what they do have... not what they dont have... they have the mark of khorne. Having the mark of khorne is not different in any way shape or form to and independent charcter having the mark of khorne...
60990
Post by: Polecat
WarlordRob117 wrote:
Exactly... he has all four marks... the criteria isnt that the independent character has a different mark than the unit (what you are referencing by him having all four)... what matters is that the unit cannot have a different mark than him...
Actually the criteria is that the IC has a different mark.
"An IC with a mark of chaos cannot join a unit with a different mark of chaos"
Replace the words "mark of chaos" with "mark of Nurgle" for example.
Then replace the words "different mark of chaos" with "mark of Khorne".
Now it reads "An IC with a mark of Nurgle cannot join a unit with a mark of Khorne"
It is clear that it does not matter if the IC has the same mark. Only thing that matters is that does the IC have a different mark. If he does, he cannot join the unit.
49515
Post by: WarlordRob117
Sigh... how do you kill, that which has no life?
That is not what the codex says... I just referenced it from page 30 of the codex sitting right in my lap as I type you this.
There is no punctuation error, there is no language barrier. Regardless of what language, the sentence structure states that the Independent character (object of interest) has a mark of chaos. It then goes on to say that he/she cannot join a unit that has a different mark than him/her (possessive). Abaddon has the Mark of Khorne, The Mark of Tzeentch, The mark of slaanesh, and the mark of nurgle. He has allllllllll fooooooooouuuuur of them. This means that as long as the unit he wants to join has the same mark he does, he can join them...
chances are if you cannot process this tiny bit of info, it really doesnt matter because in a month or two you will be shown the light from the GW officials and you'll no choice but to accept that read far too much into things and try to see something that isnt there... take a deep breath and relax... at they arent as rough as necrons lol
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
"A model or unit may only purchase one Mark of Chaos. An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit
with a different Mark of Chaos. pg 30 C: Chaos Space Marines
Beings Abigail has MoK,MoN,MoT,MoS I could see him having a hard time joining any marked unit.
For example Abby tries to join Plague Marines, however he has Marks of T/K/S as well as N which prevent him from joining. It appears as an IC can only join if it's N to N, S to S, etc.
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Post by: Polecat
WarlordRob117 wrote:
This means that as long as the unit he wants to join has the same mark he does, he can join them...
That is absolutely not what it means.
In fact that is the exact opposite what it means.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Warlord - you have parsed the exact opposite meaning out of that sentence to what is written.
Abby has MoK, MoN, MoS, MoT. He tries to join a unit with MoK.
Is MoK different to MoK? No
Is MoN different to MoK? Yes. Stop. He cannot join.
49515
Post by: WarlordRob117
Too bad sentence structure is lost on some people...
This is Abby attempting the action:
"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join"
This is the unit that is being joined:
"a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."
its a simple sentence stating that an independent character cannot join a unit that has a different mark than he does.
It makes too much sense people.
either way Im tossing in the towel... if you dont get it, its because you dont want to understand and want to make the game difficult for everyone. have fun drinking crushed glass
34666
Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
WarlordRob117 wrote:Too bad sentence structure is lost on some people...
This is Abby attempting the action:
"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join"
This is the unit that is being joined:
"a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."
its a simple sentence stating that an independent character cannot join a unit that has a different mark than he does.
It makes too much sense people.
either way Im tossing in the towel... if you dont get it, its because you dont want to understand and want to make the game difficult for everyone. have fun drinking crushed glass
Ok than your Logic
Abby will be our IC.
Our unit will be Khorne Besterkers.
Abby has MoN, Zerks have MoK. Abby cannot join because the unit has a different mark.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
WarlordRob117 wrote:Too bad sentence structure is lost on some people...
Yes, you apparently.
WarlordRob117 wrote:This is Abby attempting the action:
"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join"
Yes, and he has 4 marks
WarlordRob117 wrote:This is the unit that is being joined:
"a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."
Any unit he joins WILL have a different mark of chaos to Abby, as Abby has MoN and Khorne Bezerkers have MoK. If you decide to only loiok at Abbys MoK, why? You certainly have no rules allowance to do so.
WarlordRob117 wrote:its a simple sentence stating that an independent character cannot join a unit that has a different mark than he does.
It makes too much sense people.
Yes, and Abby will always have a differnt mark to any unit he joins. Always
It is VERY simple, so not quite sure how youre managing to mangle it.
WarlordRob117 wrote:either way Im tossing in the towel... if you dont get it, its because you dont want to understand and want to make the game difficult for everyone. have fun drinking crushed glass
Nope, as amply proven you have failed in parsing a simple sentence
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Post by: WarlordRob117
"Any unit he joins WILL have a different mark of chaos to Abby, as Abby has MoN and Khorne Bezerkers have MoK. If you decide to only loiok at Abbys MoK, why? You certainly have no rules allowance to do so."
Who says you do? you have no rules stating you cant apply it as such... look its easy, we'll even use fingers, and we only need four.
You guys wanna use mark of nurgle right? cool cool no problem
he wants to join a unit of berzerkers right? even better
cant join them because of mark of nurgle right? gotcha too easy...
does he have another other marks? oh he does you say? what else does he have?
He also has mark of tzeentch? does that help? certainly not
What about the mark of slaanesh? wont do either huh? thats cool
Does he have the mark of khorne? no? oh you said yes? so that would mean he and the berzerkers have the same mark? Imagine that....
gosh I should be an elementary school teacher woot!
enjoy your tea and crumpits and take a chill pill buddy...
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Post by: nosferatu1001
So, again you have managed to make up rules
You cannot join a unit with a different mark to the IC
Abby has MoN. That is different (as in, not the same thing - in case you have misunderstood what "different" means) to the MoK on the Bezerkers.
Meaning he cannot join. Done.
You have no rule allowing you to only consider the marks he has that are the same as the unit. THe criteria is that he has a different mark and, if so, he cannot join. Once this criteria is met he cannot join.
You should not be an elementary school teacher, certainly not in parsing simple English sentences, as you have ignored the actual rule and replaced it with something you made up.
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Post by: WarlordRob117
didnt actually do that, you must not like how simple a thought process it is...
doesnt really affect me since I dont use the character, but Im gonna LMAO, long, hard, and loud when you know exactly whats going to happen happens. but thats ok, you said done. That must mean the conversations over.
and whats with parsing? you must be from birmingham
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Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
It does not require him to have the same mark
It prohibits him if he has A (singular) different mark. He will always have 3 different marks. He is never aloowed to join a marked unit.
He has K, T, N, S
to join a K unit he cannot have N, T, S
to join a T unit he cannot have N, K, S
to join a S unit he cannot have N, T, K
to join a N unit he cannot have T, K, S
now do you understand the issue? He cannot have A (singular again) different mark, he has 3 different, he is prohibited 3 times.
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Post by: WarlordRob117
I really dont think thats how it reads bud...
I mean I understand what you are getting at, but the fact alone that he has one of the same marks as a unit he wants to join makes too much sense.
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Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
I agree that it makes no sense but it is how the rules are written out. I'm not saying its how I would play it, but in the RAW discussion its what is RAW.
I feel like the rule should've made it so characters just had to share a mark with the unit they join, but thats not how its written.
Playing against me, by all means, field him in any unit you want, but against TFG it probably isint going to happen. Thats not to say everyone who is saying here that abby cant join a unit is TFG, it just means they see how the rule is written, and are giving an objective rules interpretation.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
WarlordRob117 wrote:I really dont think thats how it reads bud...
I mean I understand what you are getting at, but the fact alone that he has one of the same marks as a unit he wants to join makes too much sense.
Ah, theres your issue - you are reading a restriction incorrectly
He cannot join if he has a different mark. He will always have 3 different marks, meaning he cannot join. It is a stunningly simple sentence
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Post by: armis
nosferatu1001 wrote: WarlordRob117 wrote:I really dont think thats how it reads bud...
I mean I understand what you are getting at, but the fact alone that he has one of the same marks as a unit he wants to join makes too much sense.
Ah, theres your issue - you are reading a restriction incorrectly
He cannot join if he has a different mark. He will always have 3 different marks, meaning he cannot join. It is a stunningly simple sentence
It's the unit that cannot have a different mark, not Abby. Like I've said before I'm not sure if that's enough of a difference, but it could well be that we're called to compare the entirety of Abaddon once, instead of comparing four times. In that case he could join, as "mark of X" is part of the group "all marks".
The rule is basically flawed and needs details of the comparison procedure, and without it I'd say there is no RAW, only interpretations.
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Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
But there is RAW. You almost never check part of rule X. Rule X is a rule in its entirety, and unless stated otherwise, you must use the rule in its entirety. You cannot pick and choose which parts of a rule apply. The rule will tell you to do that if thats the case.
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Post by: armis
 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:But there is RAW. You almost never check part of rule X. Rule X is a rule in its entirety, and unless stated otherwise, you must use the rule in its entirety. You cannot pick and choose which parts of a rule apply. The rule will tell you to do that if thats the case.
Huh, I thought my interpretation did check the rule in its entirety. All that stuff about "mark X" being part of the group, "all marks". I can understand if you think that's not what the rule means, but I honestly can't see how it could be just a part of the rule.
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Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
Because he is prohibited from joining a unit if he has even 1, single, solitary, mark that is different from them. He is not given permission to join if he has the same mark, he does that becuase he is an IC.
Think about it this way, It dosent matter if the unit likes one mark he has, they hate the other three.
Khorne says "The Skum is a magic caster of tzeench"
Tzeench says "The skum is a mindless brute of khorne"
Nurgle says "His slanneshy body is too hot for us"
and Slannesh says "His sickened nurgle body is not perfect enough for us"
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Post by: armis
Vindicare-Obsession wrote:Because he is prohibited from joining a unit if he has even 1, single, solitary, mark that is different from them. He is not given permission to join if he has the same mark, he does that becuase he is an IC.
Think about it this way, It dosent matter if the unit likes one mark he has, they hate the other three.
Khorne says "The Skum is a magic caster of tzeench"
Tzeench says "The skum is a mindless brute of khorne"
Nurgle says "His slanneshy body is too hot for us"
and Slannesh says "His sickened nurgle body is not perfect enough for us"
Once again, you have it backwards. It's the squad that cannot have a different mark. That makes a difference, even if I'm not sure how much of one.
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Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
It dosent change much if anything. The marks are still different somewhere.
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Post by: armis
I maintain that it's quite possible that the rules text means that you compare the squad's mark to the character as a whole.
In other words, Berzerkers have the same mark as Abaddon, but Adaddon does not have the same marks as Berzerkers.
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Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
But having the same mark changes nothing is what I'm trying to say. If he has a different mark, there is where the issues begin.
The rule dosent say they have to have the same mark, it says they must not have a different. Thats the only reason he cant join.
If it asked that they have the same mark it would be perfectly fine, but it asks that they not have different.
If its still possiable to take an unmarked lord, he could go into a khorne unit as easy as a khorne lord.
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Post by: armis
Vindicare-Obsession wrote:But having the same mark changes nothing is what I'm trying to say. If he has a different mark, there is where the issues begin.
The rule dosent say they have to have the same mark, it says they must not have a different. Thats the only reason he cant join.
If it asked that they have the same mark it would be perfectly fine, but it asks that they not have different.
If its still possiable to take an unmarked lord, he could go into a khorne unit as easy as a khorne lord.
Yeah, double negative makes it muddier (great rules writing there GW!), but still arguable.
Berzerkers do not have a different mark than Abaddon, but Abaddon has different marks than Berzerkers.
The sentence still works.
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Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
I see what you are saying, and I understand what you mean, but you must look at the MOCA as a whole. It represents 4 marks together and you are not given permission to take it apart for him to join a unit. (Permissive ruleset and all that good stuff)
I understand where you are coming from but when you look at abbys mark as a whole he does have 3 other marks that his unit will not.
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Post by: Happyjew
Well the CSM FAQ has been removed, so hopefully, we will have a new FAQ up soon and this (and zombie squad size) will be clarified.
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Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
Rumors on the wind say that Zombies are the first thing to get FAQ'd.
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Post by: Happyjew
And the ruling will not surprise me either way. As I already told the one Zombie runner at my LFGS, I don't care what the FAQ says, Plague Zombies are required to have a minimum of 20 models (unless you run out of points/models).
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Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
I havent dusted my chaos off in quite a while so it dosent really bother me either. Everyting dies equally as fast against S-10 AP-1
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Post by: rigeld2
Vindicare-Obsession wrote:I see what you are saying, and I understand what you mean, but you must look at the MOCA as a whole. It represents 4 marks together and you are not given permission to take it apart for him to join a unit. (Permissive ruleset and all that good stuff)
I understand where you are coming from but when you look at abbys mark as a whole he does have 3 other marks that his unit will not.
It's worse than that - it doesn't just represent the 4 Marks - it says he has the 4 Marks. If it was just the MoCA with the effect of the 4 Marks it wouldn't even be arguable - his Mark would always be different.
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Post by: zentdiam
By complete RAW couldn't the sentence under marks stating "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." be taken as allowing him to join since he doesn't have A mark of chaos? The phrase a mark of chaos could denote having a singular mark of chaos being the limiting factor. Since he has multiple he is bypassing the stipulation that any character with a "single" mark of chaos can not join another unit with a different mark of chaos?
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Post by: Schrodingers_Kitty
According to RAW (and using set theory) Abaddon can join any squad. Allow me to elaborate:
First, we need to understand the Set Difference. The set difference between U and A (U\A) is defined as set of members of U that are not members of A. For example, let's take U to be {1, 2, 3} and A to be {2, 3, 4}. U\A is {1}. Inversely, A\U is {4}. This shows it matters the order of the set difference.
Now onto the rules: Abaddon's set, which I'll refer to as A, is {k, n, s, t}, and the squad's set is S. For our example, let's say the squad has Mark of Khorne, so S is {k}. The rules say if the squad has a different mark, which means we are dealing with a set difference S\A. S\A is {k}\{k, n, s, t} = {} (the null set). There is no difference so Abaddon is free to join.
The people who say Abaddon can't join are saying the set difference is {n, s, t} which would be A\S, which isn't what the rules say.
On further note: those who say that Abaddon can't join squads with a mark should also say that he can't join sqauds without a mark, too. {k, n, s, t}\{} = {k, n, s, t}. Abaddon would have 4 marks different than the squad.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:According to RAW (and using set theory) Abaddon can join any squad. Allow me to elaborate:
First, we need to understand the Set Difference. The set difference between U and A (U\A) is defined as set of members of U that are not members of A. For example, let's take U to be {1, 2, 3} and A to be {2, 3, 4}. U\A is {1}. Inversely, A\U is {4}. This shows it matters the order of the set difference.
Now onto the rules: Abaddon's set, which I'll refer to as A, is {k, n, s, t}, and the squad's set is S. For our example, let's say the squad has Mark of Khorne, so S is {k}. The rules say if the squad has a different mark, which means we are dealing with a set difference S\A. S\A is {k}\{k, n, s, t} = {} (the null set). There is no difference so Abaddon is free to join.
The people who say Abaddon can't join are saying the set difference is {n, s, t} which would be A\S, which isn't what the rules say.
On further note: those who say that Abaddon can't join squads with a mark should also say that he can't join sqauds without a mark, too. {k, n, s, t}\{} = {k, n, s, t}. Abaddon would have 4 marks different than the squad.
"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." One issue with your logic, it breaks the rule.
As Abby has A the unit has K, sure the unit has a mark in common with Abby, however there are examples of a different mark there as well.
If Abby were to join an Unmarked unit that is fine Abby has A, unit has no mark. The rule is not broken and follows as normal.
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Post by: Luide
Schrodingers_Kitty wrote: Now onto the rules: Abaddon's set, which I'll refer to as A, is {k, n, s, t}, and the squad's set is S. For our example, let's say the squad has Mark of Khorne, so S is {k}. The rules say if the squad has a different mark, which means we are dealing with a set difference S\A. S\A is {k}\{k, n, s, t} = {} (the null set). There is no difference so Abaddon is free to join.
Unfortunately, you've reversed your operators here. S\A gives you all the Marks that Squad has that Abaddon doesn't have. Unmarked Lord L is {} (null set). Set difference of S\L is {k}\{} is [k}, which is not empty set, so according to you, unmarked Lord cannot join marked unit.
This is because your set theory rule translates to " IC cannot join unit, unless he has same Mark as the Unit has", which is far cry from the actual rule.
Now the actual rule is "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." Therefore, the proper set difference is A\S, because it gives us "Mark(s) Abaddon has that are different from what Mark(s) the Squad has", which is exactly what rules required. {k, n, s, t}\{k} = {n,s,t} so Abaddon does in fact have 3 marks that are different from the unit, which means it may not join.
Schrodingers_Kitty wrote: The people who say Abaddon can't join are saying the set difference is {n, s, t} which would be A\S, which isn't what the rules say.
Actually, this is exactly what the rules say and is the reason why your whole reasoning is completely flawed. Here are the Set differences translated:
S\A = "All Marks Squad has that Abaddon doesn't have"
A\S= "All Marks Abaddon has that Squad doesn't have" which one can also say as "All Marks Abaddon has that are different from the Marks Squad has"
Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:On further note: those who say that Abaddon can't join squads with a mark should also say that he can't join sqauds without a mark, too. {k, n, s, t}\{} = {k, n, s, t}. Abaddon would have 4 marks different than the squad.
Because you've 'conveniently forgotten' that there is requirement S != {} for the actual rule to apply.
So the formal requirements for a IC being allowed to join unit in CSM are I = {} || S = {} || ( S != {} && I\S = {} )
Lord can join a squad if and only if 1) IC has no Mark OR 2) Squad has no Mark OR 3) Squad has a Mark and the Mark is not different from what Mark IC has.
Technically IC = {} is superfluous, because if IC = {} then I\S is trivially {}.
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Post by: Schrodingers_Kitty
Allow me to try to clarify:
Let's look at the rule "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." We have two parts of this: "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos" and "a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." The difference is modifying the squad and not the independent character. So, again the set difference would be S\A, not A\S.
I'm not saying that because they have a mark in common, that they can join up. I agree that the rule doesn't say that. If we had some mythic squad that could somehow take the mark of khorne and the mark of nurgle a the same time, then Typhus could not join that squad. Even though they have a mark in common, there exists a difference. {k, n}\{n}={k} =\= {}. However, Abaddon could join this squad because we are left with the null set {k, n}\{k, n, s, t} = {}, which means there is no difference.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
S\A = "All Marks Squad has that Abaddon doesn't have"
A\S= "All Marks Abaddon has that Squad doesn't have" which one can also say as "All Marks Abaddon has that are different from the Marks Squad has"
Why did you not give a "translation" for S\A? "All Marks Squad has that Abaddon doesn't have" would translate to "All Marks that the squad have that are different from what Abaddon has."
Is that not what the rules say? "a squad with a different Mark of Chaos"?
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Post by: Luide
Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:Allow me to try to clarify:
Let's look at the rule "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." We have two parts of this: "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos" and "a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." The difference is modifying the squad and not the independent character. So, again the set difference would be S\A, not A\S.
No. The squad must not have different mark, which means you have to
I'm not saying that because they have a mark in common, that they can join up. I agree that the rule doesn't say that. If we had some mythic squad that could somehow take the mark of khorne and the mark of nurgle a the same time, then Typhus could not join that squad. Even though they have a mark in common, there exists a difference. {k, n}\{n}={k} =\= {}. However, Abaddon could join this squad because we are left with the null set {k, n}\{k, n, s, t} = {}, which means there is no difference.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
S\A = "All Marks Squad has that Abaddon doesn't have"
A\S= "All Marks Abaddon has that Squad doesn't have" which one can also say as "All Marks Abaddon has that are different from the Marks Squad has"
Why did you not give a "translation" for S\A? "All Marks Squad has that Abaddon doesn't have" would translate to "All Marks that the squad have that are different from what Abaddon has."
Because that "translation" only works if you assume that Cardinality of S is equal or greater than Cardinality of A. In this case, if 1 is equal or greater than 4. Which is not.
A\S "translation" makes reverse assumption: Cardinality of A is equal or greater than cardinality of S. In other words,4 is equal or greater than 1.
This is because set difference definitions don't translate to the word 'different' properly. Set difference {k}\{n} states that Mark of Khorne is 'different' from Mark of Nurgle, but reverse is not true: {k}\[n} doesn't mean that Mark of Nurgle is 'different' from Mark of Khorne. To check for difference as defined in normal language, you need to use symmetric operator, because obviously if A is different from B, B should be different from A.
Symmetric difference is defined as elements which are not same between two sets. Ie elements that are actually different between the sets as defined in normal language.
I'll just use T as the operator.
So if symmetric difference returns null set, then neither set has any elements that are different from the elements the other set has.
Note that the rule specifies that it only applies if both Squad and IC have at least 1 mark, |S| != 0 && |A| != 0.
Then if Symmetric difference returns null set, then we Abaddon can join Squad. Problem is that A t S = {k,n,s,t} t {k} = {n,s,t} which is not empty set. So using set theory, we've proven that Abaddon cannot join any unit with Mark of Chaos.
Nicely enough, we've reached the same conclusion one would do by plain language parsing.
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Post by: WarlordRob117
Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:Allow me to try to clarify:
Let's look at the rule "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." We have two parts of this: "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos" and "a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." The difference is modifying the squad and not the independent character. So, again the set difference would be S\A, not A\S.
I'm not saying that because they have a mark in common, that they can join up. I agree that the rule doesn't say that. If we had some mythic squad that could somehow take the mark of khorne and the mark of nurgle a the same time, then Typhus could not join that squad. Even though they have a mark in common, there exists a difference. {k, n}\{n}={k} =\= {}. However, Abaddon could join this squad because we are left with the null set {k, n}\{k, n, s, t} = {}, which means there is no difference.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
S\A = "All Marks Squad has that Abaddon doesn't have"
A\S= "All Marks Abaddon has that Squad doesn't have" which one can also say as "All Marks Abaddon has that are different from the Marks Squad has"
Why did you not give a "translation" for S\A? "All Marks Squad has that Abaddon doesn't have" would translate to "All Marks that the squad have that are different from what Abaddon has."
Is that not what the rules say? "a squad with a different Mark of Chaos"?
Im sorry but you are awesome... you are putting it in simple equation form and people are still not accepting of it...
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Post by: Schrodingers_Kitty
I'd like to explore this notion of symmetric difference. More precisely, why do you think the rules call for a symmetric difference?
Let's look at the following sample sentences:
1) "A character with a mark cannot join a squad that has a different mark."
2) "A character with a mark, which differs from a squad's mark, cannot join that squad.:
3) "A character with a mark cannot join a differently marked squad."
I submit that only sentence 3 implies symmetric difference being that it says the sets, themselves, cannot be different for the character to join. Sentence 1 implies that the squad's set, S, has to be a subset of the character's set, C, for the character to be able to join; sentence 2 says that C has to be a subset of S.
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Post by: The_Rogue_Engineer
Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:Allow me to try to clarify:
Let's look at the rule "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." We have two parts of this: "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos" and "a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." The difference is modifying the squad and not the independent character. So, again the set difference would be S\A, not A\S.
I'm not saying that because they have a mark in common, that they can join up. I agree that the rule doesn't say that. If we had some mythic squad that could somehow take the mark of khorne and the mark of nurgle a the same time, then Typhus could not join that squad. Even though they have a mark in common, there exists a difference. {k, n}\{n}={k} =\= {}. However, Abaddon could join this squad because we are left with the null set {k, n}\{k, n, s, t} = {}, which means there is no difference.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
S\A = "All Marks Squad has that Abaddon doesn't have"
A\S= "All Marks Abaddon has that Squad doesn't have" which one can also say as "All Marks Abaddon has that are different from the Marks Squad has"
Why did you not give a "translation" for S\A? "All Marks Squad has that Abaddon doesn't have" would translate to "All Marks that the squad have that are different from what Abaddon has."
Is that not what the rules say? "a squad with a different Mark of Chaos"?
Trying to follow your logic and look at this objectively, but wouldn't the formula for abby be:
{k,n}/{k}+{k,n}/{n}+{k,n}/{s}+{k,n}/{t}=\={} because you have to check the unit's mark(s) against each of the IC's marks for one difference and not as a collective?
or from another perspective:
{k,n}/{MoCA}=\={}
I personally feel that abby should be able to join these units from a RAI, but I currently don't see it from a RAW perspective. Your arguement intrigues me though.
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Post by: Lungpickle
He can join any unit because his mark has 1 of each and well he can. You can quote the rule your puking all over here and quite frankly you know your wrong. Just remember most of you rules lawering RAW people here have been wrong 12 out of 10 times when faq reviels the truth off it.
JUST LIKE the zombie hordes of cultist are up to 35 per unit.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Lungpickle wrote:He can join any unit because his mark has 1 of each and well he can. You can quote the rule your puking all over here and quite frankly you know your wrong. Just remember most of you rules lawering RAW people here have been wrong 12 out of 10 times when faq reviels the truth off it.
JUST LIKE the zombie hordes of cultist are up to 35 per unit.
12 out of 10, I'm glad you can do math. As for us Rules Lawyering people, until a faq they have to played that way as it's a game with RULES.
The rule doesn't care about marks that are the same, just when they're different. So you're still wrong but good try.
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Post by: rigeld2
Lungpickle wrote:He can join any unit because his mark has 1 of each and well he can. You can quote the rule your puking all over here and quite frankly you know your wrong. Just remember most of you rules lawering RAW people here have been wrong 12 out of 10 times when faq reviels the truth off it.
JUST LIKE the zombie hordes of cultist are up to 35 per unit.
We actually haven't. And we are only wrong if we continue to assert the rules work one way after its been FAQed or errataed otherwise.
Please backup your opinion with rules quotes, not feelings.
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Post by: Kevlar
Lungpickle wrote:He can join any unit because his mark has 1 of each and well he can. You can quote the rule your puking all over here and quite frankly you know your wrong. Just remember most of you rules lawering RAW people here have been wrong 12 out of 10 times when faq reviels the truth off it.
JUST LIKE the zombie hordes of cultist are up to 35 per unit.
I know it is annoying, especially the ones who have to post their opinion 300 times in every thread, but doing this is what they want. They are just trying to piss you off so they can report you to a mod and get their jollies.
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Post by: Cyke
As presently written, it's pretty clear that Abaddon can't join any Marked units.
If we had an impossible hypothetical IC with three marks: K+N+T, and a unit with three marks K+N+S, they can't join up, because there's that one mismatch.
Basically the way it's written, a single mismatch immediately triggers the denial of an IC to join the unit.
That said, I hardly care either way, but honestly I don't have a single doubt which way the FAQ will go.
Best said on the first page: djdarknoise wrote:I dare you to find a Chaos player that will agree that the Warmaster of the Black Legion, head of 13 Black Crusades, and the most hated and feared Chaos Space Marine in the known galaxy can't join any damn unit he wants.
I doubt that, if we had the means to ask them all, that we could find any single staff member at GW that will say Abaddon can't join any damn unit he wants!
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Post by: Happyjew
Cyke wrote:As presently written, it's pretty clear that Abaddon can't join any Marked units.
If we had an impossible hypothetical IC with three marks: K+N+T, and a unit with three marks K+N+S, they can't join up, because there's that one mismatch.
Basically the way it's written, a single mismatch immediately triggers the denial of an IC to join the unit.
That said, I hardly care either way, but honestly I don't have a single doubt which way the FAQ will go.
Best said on the first page: djdarknoise wrote:I dare you to find a Chaos player that will agree that the Warmaster of the Black Legion, head of 13 Black Crusades, and the most hated and feared Chaos Space Marine in the known galaxy can't join any damn unit he wants.
I doubt that, if we had the means to ask them all, that we could find any single staff member at GW that will say Abaddon can't join any damn unit he wants!
Unfortunately we will have to wait for CSM FAQ Take 2 as it is not covered.
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Post by: rigeld2
And I think it's up for interpretation - he doesn't want to show favoritism to any one god, so can only join unmarked units.
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Post by: Happyjew
rigeld2 wrote:And I think it's up for interpretation - he doesn't want to show favoritism to any one god, so can only join unmarked units.
Which is exactly what I said back on page 3 (maybe 4).
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Post by: Lungpickle
The 12 out of ten times isn't a miss-math quote, Its sarcasm.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
That's nice. Citation needed to prove sarcasm?
Still Abby is not allowed to join a marked squad, post faq.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Bad sarcasm as well. Also it wasnt answered in the FAQ, so still RAW he cannot join units with a different mark to him.
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