So without a doubt, there's a certain amount of Ultramarines hate flying around, and with it, Ward hate, and Imperium hate and what have you. While it is entirely understandable why a vast majority of 40kers could view the Ultramarines Chapter as bland, without personality, and without flaws, I want to ask the Dakka community what would they do to make the Chapter more appealing?

For me personally, while the Ultramarines have always been something of the posterboy (even before Ward), I sort of also remembered them as the underdogs, the average joe, when I was a kid. And that the massive losses they suffered at the Battle of Macragge was the epitome of that, the lowly underdog winning out, but only slightly and with great loss. Their willingness to re-interpret the Codex in order to create the Tyrannic War Veterans shows me the determination they have to ensure it would never happen again. Of course, I was a kid, and my viewpoint has probably been skewed.

One way, I think, to fix it is that the Ultramarines always have had a Greco-Roman feel to them, but that only ever reached as far as their aesthetics and naming conventions, but that was really about it. We hear how awesome the Ultramar sector is, time and time again, but we dont really know what impact the Ultramar culture/upbringing have on the Ultramarines, like we do for the Wolves and Fenris, or Baal for the Blood Angels. I think it would be better if GW/BL did a better job of introducing that "Roman way of war" into the Ultramarines' psyche, and that could help explain their strict discipline and obedience to the Codex, as opposed to "Our Primarch wrote the bestest book on war, evar, and thats all we need".
Also, I think downplaying that whole "perfect" thing would help. As I said, I used to view them as the average joe marines, and would be good to see a return to that form, I think.

So what does Dakka think?

PS: Ward hate to a minimum, please

The entire Matt Ward Ultras thing got old a while ago. However, I do agree the Ultramarines could use a more interesting character; just because they're poster boys doesn't mean they have to be boring.

One thing I was thinking of: Take the entire "we're the best" and make it their hat. They are one of the strongest and most flexible marine forces, and they're not afraid to show it. Have them constantly snark the superiority of the Ultramar system over the rest of the Imperium, or snicker at the stupidity of lesser chapters ("Heh, wolf puns."). Make it clear that, while Guilliman made honest efforts to reach out to the rest of the legions, in his absence the Ultramarines have become an insular chapter that looks down on the deteriorating conditions of the rest of the Imperium. An Ultramarine fights with practiced precision following the Codex Astartes and looks down on those who improvise in crazy ways instead of taking the most obviously efficient option. This way, you get to keep their status as poster boys who adhere strongly to the codex, while also making them rather distinctive.

And the worst part is, they're usually right.

Of course, at this point, we might as well have a totally new chapter, but I thought it'd be an interesting take. Maybe for a DIY chapter.

Not every Space Marine chapter has to have a unique flavor, the UM are meant to be the representation of your standard chapter save the whole Ultramar thing. They're more or less made to be standard and un-unique. Undoing a lot of the bad fluff Ward put in would help their image though. Having all Space Marines secretly want to be Ultramarines is one of the worst and nonsensical pieces of fluff in 40k history. Oh yeah, I sure bet the Space Wolves, Salamanders, and Imperial Fists are totally ashamed of their lineage.

I think Relic did a fantastic job of shaking the UM's up a bit. On one hand, new recruits practically worship the Codex and its 'marysueness', and the older, wiser, marines, simply respect it like a well used, but rarely needed handbook.

Like the Codex Astartes, UM's are what you make of them.

1068SCP wrote:
The entire Matt Ward Ultras thing got old a while ago. However, I do agree the Ultramarines could use a more interesting character; just because they're poster boys doesn't mean they have to be boring.

The downside is that as the 'generic template' they do have to be. If they start throwing in actual Ultramarines specific special units and rules, and book is no longer a template generic Space Marine list. Which would end up with another space marine codex out there.

Also the fact that they're meant to be the exemplars of codex adherence pretty much means there's no wiggle room for esoteric units and rules. They're meant to be the boring, standard Marines.

That said, I find their specific models rather nice, in particular the Honour Guard and Calgars pimpmobile, and the few greco-roman conversion bits floating around. It's possible to make them very visually unique.

 DemetriDominov wrote:


Like the Codex Astartes, UM's are what you make of them.

That's their problem, imo. There is nothing really unique about them other than the fact that they're superior to the rest of the Imperium and they're the "ideal" codex chapter that all others look to as an example.

I'd like to see the Ultramarines suffer more defeats. And I don't mean "close losses" where they "gave as good as they got", or Pyrrhic victories, ala the Tyrannic Wars. I might straight up, "we learned nothing except what losing feels like", crushing defeats.

Defeats on the level of what Helbrecht and the BT's suffered at the hands of the Necrons. The UM desperately need that, in order to be interesting.

Introduce a 'darker' side to them - such as a more authoritarian streak in controlling their homeworld; people who ask questions or don't obey the Ultramarines are shot in plain sight to act as a deterrent.

I think it would add character...

Iranna.

Ultramarines aren't boring, their exactly what their meant to be, standard Space marines devoid of extreme personality or traits.
Changing them or trying to give them a darker side would give the impression all Space marines are emotionally driven warriors, instead of being the steadfast defenders.

 Iranna wrote:
Introduce a 'darker' side to them - such as a more authoritarian streak in controlling their homeworld; people who ask questions or don't obey the Ultramarines are shot in plain sight to act as a deterrent.

I'm quite sure oppression is how Ultramar actually works. Chapter Master Calgar makes sure everyone is happy - or else. This is after all the Grimdark future, not shiny happy faeries and rainbows land. The Spartans in 300 made big speeches about freedom and democracy too, but in reality only the Spartan warrior class had any of that. The women, lower classes and slaves were no better off than in any other Greek city-state of that era.

Added to that, the Ultramarines are surely susceptible to arrogance and pride as the inheritors of Guilliman's legacy. This will bite them in the toes every once in a while, such as that Battle of Macragge mentioned earlier. A polar fortress built and stocked to withstand siege for months running out of ammunition in the time it takes for Calgar to win the space battle? Either someone's screwed up big time by skimping on ammo dumps, or the fortress was never more than propaganda to begin with. I'm leaning toward propaganda seeing as the Master of the Forge wasn't executed for failing his duties.

I don't think they are boring I just think they aren't as exciting as Space Vampires, Werewolf Vikings or Albino Ninjas

Edit: Spellinz

I actualy like the Utlramarines as they are. Other chapters might act like they are special snowflakes.
The Ultramarines on the other hand are honorable, reliable, efficient and unlike other chapters, quite willing to cooperate with the imperial authorites.
No mutations, no stupid dark secrets, no almost maniacal need to show how independent they are.
They are what every spacemarine chapter should be.

They aren't flashy or dark or disturbed. There's nothing wrong with that and it doesn't make them boring nor does it imply happy-fairy land either. With the Ultramarines you get what you see, the ability to play any type of marine army out there. You aren't as good in any one area as the specialized chapters, but you have a range that is impressive.

They have flaws: Pride being the big one.
They have flavor: Greco-roman.

I like the fact that they don't have special rules. In previous editions, blood angels needed to check every round or move forward towards the enemy. Dark angels might stubbornly refuse to move. Ultramarines just obeyed orders and did what they needed to do. The lack of powerful special rules comes with a lack of drawbacks. We my be jack of all trades, master of none, but we can do everything.

Just a basic take-all-comers, flexible force. Nothing special. But enough to get the job done; enough to save the galaxy.

I seriously don't understand this.

What would the OP need to make the UM interesting? Surely you aren't suggesting some Space Vampire, Space Were-Wolf kinda thing?

Don't get me wrong, the fluff behind those chapters can be interesting, but the Ultramarines fill an important roll in the 40k universe. They are the ROCK on which the hope of humanity rests like it or not. Their gene-seed is among the purest exhibiting no flaws and they maintain a region of the Empire that is the least grim-dark, where there at least exists a little hope for mankind. Or, perhaps this is the entire problem? Too much hope? Not enough angst?

The Ultramarines are keenly aware of this fact. They know they are the last real bulwark against chaos (at least until a writer changes everything). That the other Chapters fight valiantly there is no doubt, but it is the "Empire" of the Ultramarines that remains a light to the future and not a disintergrating vestige of times past.

This viewpoint can breed what many view as the Ultramarines flaw if it can be called that. It's really only exhibited by one or two characters in the fluff, but it's enough to turn so many against the boys in blue. There does exist a sheer pomposity or arrogance in the belief in the purity of the Ultramarine way of doing things. A dogmatic adherence to the past. They think this way, because it has worked for nearly 10 thousand years! There is a justified reticence in disturbing the status quo for fear of their own destruction.

It is my personal belief that the Ultramarines are one of the very, very few Chapters that still have the conflict within themselves that they are the protectors of mankind, and not simply their overlords by right.

It is this conflict that makes the Ultramarines interesting... at least to me.

 Iranna wrote:
Introduce a 'darker' side to them - such as a more authoritarian streak in controlling their homeworld; people who ask questions or don't obey the Ultramarines are shot in plain sight to act as a deterrent.

I think it would add character...

The issue here is... That's the rest of the Imperium.

Ultramarines come across as boring as they are written as perfect and therein lies the problem.

Blood Angels and Crimson Fists - tragic heroes, (Blood Angels bordering on being noble demons)
Space Wolves - beast-like country-cousins brawler vikings
Imperial Fists - the siege experts
Raven Guard - army of Batman clones
White Scars - mongol cowboys
Salamanders - pyromaniacs
Dark Angels - Traitor hunters
Grey Knights - Demon hunters

Leaving Ultramarines as middle of the spectrum. Five of these chapters share the same Codex with the Ultramarines. Effectively, each special HQ choice reduces each of their brethren to a 'Chapter of Hats.'

Perhaps all the Astartes Codex chapters are just BORING one-trick-ponies?

All the other chapters I've listed fit into classical archetypes - there really isn't room to portray the Ultras as a fascist police army since the IOM in its' entirety is already filling the part. If anything, the Ultramarines are just the poster-boys - the inspiring examples promoted by any decent, self-respecting totalitarian regime.

They are the role-models, propaganda puppets - call them what you like - that's their stick. I feel that direct comparison with their brethren actually reduces their status - they do seem bland and vanilla next to vikings, vampires etc...

Space Marine last year gave a great example of a simple yet effective idea - illustrating the struggle of the Ultramarines to adhere to their rigid discipline and perhaps the expectations that partner them. The PERSONAL struggle is always more accessible to an audience than watching Supermen who never stuff-up breeze through moral dilemmas and endless hordes of enemies on auto-pilot.

If the 6th edition C:SM is due for any fluff alterations it really needs to highlight the reality of the Imperium losing its' grip on the galaxy. The golden age ended long ago. It's bordering ridiculous to have a civilization crumbling from the inside and at its borders, yet the equivalent of Special Forces always manages to pull of a win. It's illogical.

I strongly believe the best way for Space Marines to be portrayed is the tragic hero. Not every time, but they are SIGNIFICANTLY smaller than the Imperial Guard. Every casualty is a far greater loss in comparison. Maybe some special character rules centering on squad casualties (similar to Lemartes in Blood ANgels , tho LESS extreme) would flavour and intensify the 'narrative' that GW is trying to promote. Some character flaws, some cracks in the marble would better reflect the decaying existence of the IOM.

To make Ultramarines (and Space Marines in their entirety) less boring I'd avoid the one-dimensional character types and embrace some (limited) variety and internal conflict.

Stop letting Graham McNeill write them as idiots, lol.


The Codex: Astartes was originally supposed to be why the Ultramarines were "The Greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" (Back Cover, Codex: Ultramarines, 1993). McNeill turned them into bumbling, rule-bound idiots, and the Codex Astartes into some idiotic "If A, Then B" instruction manual for warfare.

Make them the sort of strategic and tactical warlords they are supposed to be. Don't tell people that the Ultramarines are the best, tell people why.


But, ultimately, make Codex: Space Marines competitive. 40K players aren't the brightest, or most imaginative bunch. They look at the army lists, recognize that Codex: Space Wolves and Codex: Blood Angels are far more powerful than Codex: Space Marines. From there, their brains connect that the Space Wolves and Blood Angels must be better in-universe too.

C:SM is boring and sucks. Codex: Space Marines is actually just Codex: Ultramarines with a simpler name so new players don't get confused about what codex to buy to play "regular" Space Marines. If Codex: Ultramarines is bland and underpowered, players will assume the same of the Ultramarines themselves.

Take away their God Mode.

Visitor13 wrote:
Take away their God Mode.

Did you see the new chaos codex? Every dead space marine in images was a blue ultramarine, look for yourself.

As for flavor I disagree, they have the greco-roman flavor that represents the entire astartes.

Making them Imperial Guard?

They're fine the way they are. They're the "normal" marines. You need someone normal to highlight how weird the other chapters like Space Wolves, Blood Angels and others are.

 Iranna wrote:
Introduce a 'darker' side to them - such as a more authoritarian streak in controlling their homeworld; people who ask questions or don't obey the Ultramarines are shot in plain sight to act as a deterrent.

I think it would add character...

Iranna.

So the exact opposite of what Ultramar is? Okay.

Back on topic, I think the Ultramarines are fine as is. Just because the're not uber special snowflakes like a lot of other SM chapters doesn't mean they're boring.

That's not "the exact opposite" of anything in the Imperium, never mind anything Marine-related. It's just a more extreme version of what is normal.

Making the Smurfs "darker" or "more unique" really wouldn't work imo, they're meant to be the poster child for the Space Marines and the strictiest followers of the Codex Astartes.

The only real changes I can see that would fit them would be to tone down just how wondrous they are and their mythical status is mere propaganda. Emphasize that after the Tyrannic War and Honsou's invasion they're actually in pretty bad shape which is being hidden from the greater Imperium, where they're still revered.

Moreover, show these new difficulties beginning g to effect their realm. For instance, in the destruction left by Behemoth, food riots break out in Ultramar which the Ultramarines brutally put down, breaking the historic image of Ultramar as more progressive and liberal then the greater Imperium. The Sons of Guilliman now face the dilemma of occupiers and this is making many of them question their role.

Regular Ultramarines bore me.
But if you go check out something called The Dornian Heresy (which is an 'alternate history' for 40k where Horus resisted temptation) I really like the Ultramarines depicted there.

Dornian Heresy Ultramarines are awesome, and sadly very difficult to convert.

 Harriticus wrote:
The only real changes I can see that would fit them would be to tone down just how wondrous they are and their mythical status is mere propaganda. Emphasize that after the Tyrannic War and Honsou's invasion they're actually in pretty bad shape which is being hidden from the greater Imperium, where they're still revered.

I actually like this change. It's a nice subversion of the legendary Space Marine concept in general.

You could put an emphasis on the growing schism between Calgar's calm, disciplined command and Cassius's intense hatred of all xenos. Make the Tyrannic War bring the Ultramarines to the edge of breaking into two separate forces, which, given their state of rebuilding, could break the chapter and lead to a vulnerable Ultramar. Put Calgar in an impossible place, potentially battling his beloved mentor, who is slipping into an obsessive madness. Calgar's never faced an enemy within his chapter, so this could go a long way to humanize the Ultramarines.

Zappit wrote:
You could put an emphasis on the growing schism between Calgar's calm, disciplined command and Cassius's intense hatred of all xenos. Make the Tyrannic War bring the Ultramarines to the edge of breaking into two separate forces, which, given their state of rebuilding, could break the chapter and lead to a vulnerable Ultramar. Put Calgar in an impossible place, potentially battling his beloved mentor, who is slipping into an obsessive madness. Calgar's never faced an enemy within his chapter, so this could go a long way to humanize the Ultramarines.

An internal schism that rocked the chapter like it did for the Iron Hands, which lead to the founding of the Sons of Medusa? I like that

Keep in mind that when I started this topic, I really wasnt looking for any major overhaul or OTT attributes to be assigned to the Ultramarines. I was only thinking about minor tweaks that would still maintain most of what we know about the Chapter, but introducing a small interesting bit of character to make them more appealing. But Im surprised at the responses so far, to leave the Ultramarines be. I was expecting more Ultra-hate coming in

I think at the end of the day (and this could be WAY off the mark, it's just from my experience and those I've talked to), fluff wise, there's not a huge 'problem' persay with Ultramarine fluff, it's just rather boring.

I think you could find some traction in their more Romanesque aspects. They do have a general Hellenic flavor, but the roman empire theme (particularly the republic or early empire period) fits pretty well in the greater imperium context. The Romans of this period revered the militant aspects of their culture, and they were very good at making war for many of the same reasons that the ultramarines do - they had an excellent and sometimes very rigid method of battle in an era where this was something of a novelty, and they were fantastic logisticians. They were also honor obsessed and almost weirdly arrogant and religious/superstitious, which practically screams imperium.

Macragge is an empire within an empire in a sense, and like the Romans you could portray them as dismissive of other parts of their own empire and the imperium at large, to the extent that they are oppressive. After the Marius reforms, the legions were also increasingly at odds with the will of the government due to their military power and their status as a wholly separate, professional force ( where othe armies were citizen conscripts). They frequently nominated new emperors from their generals and left the empire teetering on the brink of civil war. If you create your own force with a charismatic general that threatens the stability of macragge with his ambitions, I think you've got something. It seems very un-ultramarine on the face of it, but he would still be an ultramarine and therefore assured of his own superiority against the wretched zenos and of his ability to lead the empire into a new era of glory. His victories would give him glory in the eyes of the masses and they may call for change. Calgar is beloved, but in the face of the ultramarines troubles and recent decimation, your captain could be seen as a savior. Perhaps he has connections with the macragge upper class and they are moving to replace calgar to get a measure of freedom.

I think you are hamstrung by the codex a bit, but there is a certain nobility in the ultramarines that bears itself. Your boys don't have to be faceless soldiers, they can be an ambitious and dangerous element that is nonetheless needed to protect Ultramar from it's many barbaric external threats. They may even be recently raised to replace the losses of the tyrannic wars, and therefore somewhat free of the stultifying indoctrination of the status quo. They would believe that their destiny is to take guillimans empire and spread it through the imperium. They would still be bound by belief in the imperial cult and the god emperor, but they believe they are right. Besides, that never stopped the Romans and it shouldn't stop you either.

They might still look like ultramarines, but with this could give them some character for you, and I think that's the most important part right?

Seeing the Swarmlord rip Calgar a new face hole would have been an interesting/amusing thing to see.
But that might just be me since the FLGS that I used to go to had an overabundance of people who thought SMurfs could survive anything with nothing more then a flick of their wrist...

But really, they're meant to be the generic, by the books, obey every order chapter.
That's kinda what makes them unique... By not being unique at all.

Strict adherence to the Codex is the UM's flaw. They are following the book as dogma rather than treating it as an inspiration as Guilliman intended. Of course, this is how Dan Abnett is writing Guilliman's intentions in the Heresy books.

I really don't see how their adherence to the CA can be considered a flaw, or even their supposed "arrogance". They have literally like the greatest track record out of all the chapters, and are the chapter that all other codex-adhering chapters strive to be.

BlaxicanX wrote:
I really don't see how their adherence to the CA can be considered a flaw, or even their supposed "arrogance". They have literally like the greatest track record out of all the chapters, and are the chapter that all other codex-adhering chapters strive to be.

This is why they're boring. They have nothing exciting about them other than the idea that they never lose. That's not interesting, it's just lame. Children find perfection interesting, adults do not.

Oh also they're boring because everywhere you look you see an UM. Seriously, throw some other colours into the books, I won't be sick of seeing these ultramarines then.

BlaxicanX wrote:
I really don't see how their adherence to the CA can be considered a flaw, or even their supposed "arrogance". They have literally like the greatest track record out of all the chapters, and are the chapter that all other codex-adhering chapters strive to be.

Not a flaw as in pointy teeth or turning into a dog but as I stated, based on Dan Abnett's and Graham MacNeill's take in the HH novels, Guilliman intentended the Codex to be a springboard not a slavish doctrine. To quote Guilliman from the Age of Darkness collection:

"In war and in peace it will provide an invaluable repository of knowledge, but I do not wish it to be regarded as a substitute for reason and initiative."

So with dogged adherence to the Codex Astartes, they are not following the Primarch's vision and are possibly hampering themselves from achieving more.

But they have the best track-record out of all the marines in the Imperium, and are the marines that all codex-adhering marines wish they were. Their strict adherence to the Codex Astartes has served them very, very well, Guilliman's wishes withstanding.

 buddha wrote:

Visitor13 wrote:
Take away their God Mode.

Did you see the new chaos codex? Every dead space marine in images was a blue ultramarine, look for yourself.

Any actual fluff to the effect that they got their asses well and truly kicked? If not, I'm not convinced. They do seem to lose quite a few men every battle, but that never seems to mean anything in the end. Just yet another generic 'costly victory' (only none of the killed are actually anyone noteworthy). Boring.

Some good ideas on fixing them in this thread.

The Ultras before the heresy were massive in number, so their ability to weather defeat or be victorious can be partially attributed to being able to take more casualties than smaller legions.

After the heresy, they spawned many, many successor chapters and still maintain a high recruitment rate so there won't be stories of 'high casualties' other than the massive defeats such as losing the first company.

What makes the Ultras unique is their lack of flaws other than pride. Not everyone needs to be the underdog or hide obvious flaws.

BlaxicanX wrote:
But they have the best track-record out of all the marines in the Imperium, and are the marines that all codex-adhering marines wish they were. Their strict adherence to the Codex Astartes has served them very, very well, Guilliman's wishes withstanding.

I love the Ultramarines. My Space Marine army is UMs. Some of my best friends are UMs ....but they sentence heroes to death for beating enemies with out of the box thinking rather than following a flowchart penned 10 000 years earlier. In my book, that is flawed thinking! I'm in the forces and we have a saying "Its a skill, not a drill". Slavish following of doctrine can and will bite you in the backside given time.

alphaecho wrote:
I'm in the forces and we have a saying "Its a skill, not a drill". Slavish following of doctrine can and will bite you in the backside given time.

Or as a certain martial arts teacher used to say - if you didn't do the move as he showed it but it worked it wasn't wrong, just a different way of doing it.

I actually like the ultramarines. They are an analogue to Superman in the DC universe.

alphaecho wrote:
Strict adherence to the Codex is the UM's flaw. They are following the book as dogma rather than treating it as an inspiration as Guilliman intended. Of course, this is how Dan Abnett is writing Guilliman's intentions in the Heresy books.

This is actually Graham McNeill's fault. The Ultramarines' strict adherence to the Codex was never a flaw in the old days. What it meant was that they lived up to its tenets, including adherence to its recruitment, training, marking, etc doctrines. The combat strategy and tactics side of the Codex was always about being masters of the battlespace, not simply memorizing a list of problems and solutions.

That came later, mostly because of McNeill's awful novels. What Abnett is writing is actually closer to what was originally described back in Codex: Ultramarines in 1993.


Most of the belief that the Ultramarines are "boring" and "generic" came from the fact that Codex: Ultramarines (which was later renamed Codex: Space Marines for simplicity's sake) was the army list for a "normal" Space Marine army and lacked any exciting or unique troops or vehicles. The fact that other Space Marine armies like Space Wolves and Blood Angels were consistently a bit overpowered by comparison didn't help either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 snooggums wrote:
The Ultras before the heresy were massive in number, so their ability to weather defeat or be victorious can be partially attributed to being able to take more casualties than smaller legions.

That's not really true. While that may have helped them survive Calth (well, at least the modern version of Calth), the Ultramarines were always described as having not only had the numbers and logistics to replace their losses, but they also were noted for being more efficient in their campaigns too. Losing less Marines, plus being able to add more Marines faster, was why they ballooned up to be so much larger than any other legion.

I don't think the Ultramarines are boring. Read the Horus Heresy book Know No Fear, and you'll have a totally new perspective on the ol' Smurfs.

 Darth Bob wrote:
I don't think the Ultramarines are boring. Read the Horus Heresy book Know No Fear, and you'll have a totally new perspective on the ol' Smurfs.

I agree to an extent. Graham McNeil has made them much more falliable than what's portrayed in the codex. Honestly I found the whole 'spiritual liege' thing very silly. Along with the idea that it's a bad thing that certain chapters could 'never be Ultramarines'.

Unfortunately it seems that without the black library the UMs seem to suffer from a liberal dose of mary sue, especially with regards to Tigurius.

BlaxicanX wrote:
I really don't see how their adherence to the CA can be considered a flaw, or even their supposed "arrogance". They have literally like the greatest track record out of all the chapters, and are the chapter that all other codex-adhering chapters strive to be.

Tends to happen when the majority of your chapter survives the Horus Heresy largely unscathed, along with being the furthest away from the Eye of Terror, and only recently having had to deal with Behemoth. Attributing everything to pure martial skill is a little much when they had numbers and luck.

BlaxicanX wrote:
are the marines that all codex-adhering marines wish they were.

Ah, the joke that Matt Ward said (rather than wrote in the Codex) is being used again. How incredibly dull.

Tends to happen when the majority of your chapter survives the Horus Heresy largely unscathed

They did lose something like two fifths of their Chapter at Calth. Saying that they were largely unscathed seems a bit unfair. It was their logistics and Guillimans strategic prowess (the Lion is famed for his tactical ability, but I don't think his strategic skills are mentioned as being more exceptional than the rest of the Primarchs, for instance) that enabled them to recover so quickly.

Toning down Calgar would be a start. Right now he reads like somebody's fan fiction (Ward's):

He is a super fighter, that can make cunning tactical and strategic decisions just by glancing at a map display, who is also a capable administrator of more territory than most Chapters have. He is also well loved and though anyone else in his position might start feeling prideful and arrogant, oh no, he is anything but that and is humble.

Calgar is shown as having no real flaws worth mentioning, and even the slight inkling that perhaps he could be getting arrogant is quashed. A character that is flawless in every area and who suffers no doubts, no fears, no weaknesses is boring. There is no room for depth or growth since he is already shown to be perfect. There is never any sense of struggle since the reader knows Calgar will do the right thing.

For there to be narrative tension in a story, there has to be the option for a character to fail, whether that be physically, mentally, or ideologically/spiritually. There is no sense of that possibility at all with Calgar, which is what makes him a bad character in any other role except wish fulfillment fantasy of being a perfect superhuman.

Throw another Tyranid Fleet in their face.

I'm surprised no one mentioned the Tyranids wiping out the Ultramarines First Company of venerable terminators and wiping out the Jewel of Ultramar (forgot the planets name). The decimation the chapter recieved definately gives them a flair of vulnerability, which I like, and even though they regained some of their number back, all it takes is another massive Tyranid Fleet or even another Tau Expansion/Ork WAAAAAGGGHH to throw them unwillingly into the spot light.

I like the Ultramarines (even though I detest Space Marines all together) because they're so uniform. No Dark Secrets, no heretical ceremonies, no dim-bulb characterization. Straight up loyalist Space Marines who fight aliens and Chaos alike.

So just throw something imposing at their stock of large numbers and Poof! Less boring!

Ultramarines don't need to be less boring. They're an army of genetically augmented warriors in super-advanced power armor, wielding machine guns that use rocket propelled grenades as their basic ammunition. They sure as hell aren't boring. But, they need to be less Sue-ish. If I wrote the Ultramarines, I'd put emphasis on the fact that no matter how badass they are, ultimately they're a bunch of hyper-indoctrinated zealous fighting for a doomed empire. Every victory is only putting off the inevitable. The Imperium is going to fall, and they will certainly die with it.

I really think that playing up the Roman flavor would make them a lot more likeable. Make Ultramar like the late Republic. You could have the Ultramarines serving as ultimate rulers while the people of the planets elect senators and minor offices. Introduce a patrician/plebe class divide, with the "patricians" being favored by the marines, giving them more wealth and status to train even more of their young men into astartes inductees, this gaining MORE wealth and prestige. Meanwhile plebe families dream of having a son accepted, with all the fame that comes with it. I would also write that a good handful of successor chapters also live in and recruit from the Ultramar system, operating independently but with Calgar as supreme commander in times when multiple chapter operations are necessary.


I'm fine with the UMs having the best track record. SOMEONE has to be the best, why not them? It makes sense. They were of course by far the most numerous, and they are roman-themed. Rome in real life was insanely successful. Make them succesful for the same reasons as Rome- lots of men, lots of resources, a refusal to surrender, and an extraordinary, arrogant stubborn-ness.

Rome, like the Ultras, was really big into honor and tradition and the teachings of its ancestors. But when honor or tradition got in the way of victory, they would break with it, beat the enemy, and then rewrite history to fit the new story. Make the Ultras like this. That's a cool controversy, subsequent chapter masters bending the rules to suit their own needs, performing dishonorable actions to achieve victory. Add some "traditionalist" marines that insist on going back to what they see as Guilliman's original teachings.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Ah, the joke that Matt Ward said (rather than wrote in the Codex) is being used again.

You consider an entire codex to be "a joke"? I envy your ability to close your eyes in the face of lame fluff.

BlaxicanX wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Ah, the joke that Matt Ward said (rather than wrote in the Codex) is being used again.

You consider an entire codex to be "a joke"? I envy your ability to close your eyes in the face of lame fluff.

The entire Codex says that all non-deviant Chapters want to be Ultramarines? Must have missed that part.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Ah, the joke that Matt Ward said (rather than wrote in the Codex) is being used again.

You consider an entire codex to be "a joke"? I envy your ability to close your eyes in the face of lame fluff.

The entire Codex says that all non-deviant Chapters want to be Ultramarines? Must have missed that part.

Page 24...

Yes, it was a controversial and stupid part of the codex, that was argued about rather harshly for months, if not a year, after the codex was released, and is still despised to this day.

Technically, what that passage says is that the Successors of the Ultramarines venerate Guilliman (as he is their genetic founder), and that the non-Ultramarines followers of the Codex merely aspire to that standard set forth in the Codex.

It never says that they wish they were Ultramarines.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Technically, what that passage says is that the Successors of the Ultramarines venerate Guilliman (as he is their genetic founder), and that the non-Ultramarines followers of the Codex merely aspire to that standard set forth in the Codex.

It never says that they wish they were Ultramarines.

"These Chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman." - wouldn't be included if it didn't infer that White Scars, Imperial Fists, and Raven Guard members would be Ultras except for the lack of Ultramarine gene-seed.

The whole page talks about how they would be Ultramarines if they could. It is blindingly clear that page 24 (the rest of the codex not so blatant) is about how Ultras are perfect, the other Legions were divergent. No, the exact words aren't strung together, but the context and inference is quite clear.

By having Calgar stuff a meltabomb in Mat Ward's mouth and follow it up with the entire chapter kidnapping and violating all of the female Dark Eldar. Or, maybe they could just kill all of pony-kind. Either makes them awesome.

I've come full circle with the Ultras and now really like them. I think books [e.g. Know No Fear] have really helped me to get them. The Greco-Roman theme is great [and should be developed more]. Plus the fact that they humiliated the Word Bearers [my least favourite Chaos legion - bunch of sermonising pussies] and then bitch slapped them at Calth despite being ambushed.

 MrScience wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:
I don't think the Ultramarines are boring. Read the Horus Heresy book Know No Fear, and you'll have a totally new perspective on the ol' Smurfs.

I agree to an extent. Graham McNeil has made them much more falliable than what's portrayed in the codex. Honestly I found the whole 'spiritual liege' thing very silly. Along with the idea that it's a bad thing that certain chapters could 'never be Ultramarines'.

Unfortunately it seems that without the black library the UMs seem to suffer from a liberal dose of mary sue, especially with regards to Tigurius.

Graham McNeill didn't write Know No Fear, for the record, Dan Abnett did.

If you want more interesting Ultramarines, paint them black, give them spikey bits, top-knots, the mad-max version of their current gear, and give calgar a giant claw and a bastard sword that has faces built into the blade... oh... wait... that would be chaos!

I'm going to have to chime in once again that emphasizing their Roman-ness more heavily would make them much more interesting. The parallels with Rome are obvious (logistical and strategic superiority, regimented fighting doctrines, militaristic and expansionist, large empire). But we miss out on all the many things that really made Rome characterful. We don't hear about the brutally rigid discipline that must permeate every facet of Ultramar, and especially the training and conduct of the Ultramarines. We don't hear about the machinations that must go on within the society of Ultramar, and indeed within the Chapter itself.

I really liked two ideas above, and they're closely related - first that there is a constant churn of innovation versus dogma, where traditionalists and more innovative elements are in a subtle but constant power struggle. The higher ranking Ultras would vie for power and push their own interpretations of Guilliman's weighty legacy and the role of the Codex Astartes. Think Rome at the very end of the Republic, where traditional ways were on the verge of giving way to sweeping authoritarian changes and the power of individual egos, all wrapped up in the guise of saving the Republic. I like the idea of Cassius as strict-traditionalist turned fiery reformer, and his once-pupil, Calgar, as a pragmatic traditionalist, caught in the middle between the two opposing factions within the Ultramarines.

Second there's the idea of the rank-and-file Ultras possessing iron discipline and loyalty, but loyalty to whom? They would revere Guilliman and the Codex, but above all else they follow orders from their Captain, as they would train and deploy almost universally as Companies. Thus you open the door for charismatic Captains, backed by their obedient companies and personally loyal non-coms, wielding their power to gain influence within the chapter and secure their own further advancement. Not every captain would be this way, but I could see the more famous captains of the battle companies and maybe the first company captain occasionally clashing. Just like the Roman legions, the troops were most loyal to the commanders they fought under, and while they were loyal to Rome as well, their commanders could easily convince them that a fellow Roman leader was a threat to Rome itself.

Take Cato Sicarius as a stern and well-respected traditionalist leading the highly honored 2nd company, throwing his weight around to quash the input of a more radical captain like Uriel Ventris, trying to put a halt to the organization of tyrannic war veteran units, leading the other traditionalist captains to force Calgar's hand over the direction of the chapter, etc. You wouldn't necessarily have outright fighting, more like attempting to boost their own profile while tarnishing their adversaries within the chapter through byzantine matters of chapter code and law. Past examples of quiet coups d'etat where groups of captains deposed aging or unliked chapter masters, or opposing captains were on the verge of war over the order of succession after a chapter master's death, would give the present situation more of a threatening air. Calgar himself would be a more likeable character - for all his exceptional qualities, he cannot keep complete control over the arrogant and sometimes selfish officers of his own chapter and must constantly prove himself or compromise to maintain their loyalty.

The chapter can still be what they are, the paragons of the adeptus astartes, while having their own minor and perfectly human fissures beneath their facade.

Not many people playing now remember this, but the Ultramarines used to be not-boring, actually. The Ultramarines today are supposedly the shining paragons of perfection who can do no wrong, at least in Ward's eyes; the Ultramarines of earlier eras were written as the by-the-book uptight donkey-cave Chapter.

They used to stick to the Codex Astartes, regardless of whether the Codex was remotely applicable to the situation, do everything perfectly by the Codex, screw over their own brothers if the Codex demanded it, et cetera. Ward retconned that entire character into 'the Codex is never wrong and when it is the Ultramarines know when to ignore it anyway'; the biggest piece of damage to the Ultramarines that turned them into the universally-reviled force they are today is when the Codex stopped being portrayed as flawed. The Space Marine Codex, the Space Marine video game, the Ultramarines movie, these portray the prowess of the Space Marines being proportional to how perfectly they stick to the Codex, which in itself is a problem. No document can be perfect, even approach perfect, in the real world; in the GRIMDARKNESS of 40k the Codex is realistically full of holes, incomplete predictions about what scenarios the Chapter may face, overly-rigid guidelines about organization, et cetera. If we got that interpretation of how the Codex worked back it'd solve most of the problems with the Ultramarines right off the bat.

 snooggums wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Technically, what that passage says is that the Successors of the Ultramarines venerate Guilliman (as he is their genetic founder), and that the non-Ultramarines followers of the Codex merely aspire to that standard set forth in the Codex.

It never says that they wish they were Ultramarines.

"These Chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman." - wouldn't be included if it didn't infer that White Scars, Imperial Fists, and Raven Guard members would be Ultras except for the lack of Ultramarine gene-seed.

The whole page talks about how they would be Ultramarines if they could. It is blindingly clear that page 24 (the rest of the codex not so blatant) is about how Ultras are perfect, the other Legions were divergent. No, the exact words aren't strung together, but the context and inference is quite clear.

You do realize that all Codexes are written with the perspective of their faction right? Codex: Space Marines is Codex: Ultramarines.

And the inference you're making is manufactured. The words aren't there. You're just inventing context. Which is fine, but that's not what the book says.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 snooggums wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Technically, what that passage says is that the Successors of the Ultramarines venerate Guilliman (as he is their genetic founder), and that the non-Ultramarines followers of the Codex merely aspire to that standard set forth in the Codex.

It never says that they wish they were Ultramarines.

"These Chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman." - wouldn't be included if it didn't infer that White Scars, Imperial Fists, and Raven Guard members would be Ultras except for the lack of Ultramarine gene-seed.

The whole page talks about how they would be Ultramarines if they could. It is blindingly clear that page 24 (the rest of the codex not so blatant) is about how Ultras are perfect, the other Legions were divergent. No, the exact words aren't strung together, but the context and inference is quite clear.

You do realize that all Codexes are written with the perspective of their faction right? Codex: Space Marines is Codex: Ultramarines.

And the inference you're making is manufactured. The words aren't there. You're just inventing context. Which is fine, but that's not what the book says.

Why do people insist it's Codex ultramarines? That codex hasn't been around since 2nd.

To be fair, most Space Marines are pretty 2 dimensional. GW needs to do some serious writing if they want anything more.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Not many people playing now remember this, but the Ultramarines used to be not-boring, actually. The Ultramarines today are supposedly the shining paragons of perfection who can do no wrong, at least in Ward's eyes; the Ultramarines of earlier eras were written as the by-the-book uptight donkey-cave Chapter.

They used to stick to the Codex Astartes, regardless of whether the Codex was remotely applicable to the situation, do everything perfectly by the Codex, screw over their own brothers if the Codex demanded it, et cetera. .

They were actually never written like that in the old days. That was an invention of Graham McNeill. The older fluff said they stuck to the Codex, but that was described as an advantage, not a hindrance. That's why they were "The greatest of all Space Marine Chapters". It didn't make them donkey-caves, it just made them masters of the battlefield.

The Space Marine Codex, the Space Marine video game, the Ultramarines movie, these portray the prowess of the Space Marines being proportional to how perfectly they stick to the Codex, which in itself is a problem. No document can be perfect, even approach perfect, in the real world; in the GRIMDARKNESS of 40k the Codex is realistically full of holes, incomplete predictions about what scenarios the Chapter may face, overly-rigid guidelines about organization, et cetera. If we got that interpretation of how the Codex worked back it'd solve most of the problems with the Ultramarines right off the bat.

This is actually your misconception of what the Codex is (again the fault of McNeill). It was never supposed to be a set of rules for fighting battles. It was supposed to be a masterful tome full of examples and scenarios and the wisdom of countless commanders that a Space Marine leader could draw on to adapt to the battlefield situations. it was never supposed to be an instruction manual where there was an "answer" for everything. It was supposed to be like blending the wisdom of all the classical geniuses Sun Tzu, Clauswitz, etc into a single tome, and then filling it with the notes and observances of Guilliman and other great 40K universe generals. If you read the old fluff about the Codex, it is never described as an instruction manual. It's just that a few bad authors came up with that idea and inserted it into a handful of bad stories. From there, it's become some terrible 40K meme as more bad fluff writers have built upon that stupid idea.

It's why there is so much conflicting info about the Codex. Different writers write it different ways. That bad writers approach the Codex thinking it's some "Warfighting for Dummies" instruction manual. It's not. No warfighting publication in the history of ever has been written like that, lol. Let alone one written by the guy who is supposed to be the genius of all military geniuses.

The problem with something like that is that for any given situation, there are hundreds of variables. You can't create a formulaic response for any given situation, because every situation is different. A commander has to weigh his forces, enemy forces, weaponry, logistics, air support, supporting fires, enemy fires and air support, reinforcements, enemy reinforcements, time of day, environment, terrain, weather, and that's just to start, and things that apply to earth. The Codex would need thousands of examples for any given scenario if you were going to have a reaction you were supposed to memorize and use every time. It's farcical.

What makes the idea of the Codex being predictable is that you'd have to be a master of the Codex to predict it. Yes, in order to beat a great general, you'd have to be... a greater general. Wow, just in real life. The guys who win great battles have done so typically by being smarter, and thinking quicker on their feed than their opponent. So sure, a Chaos general could have read the Codex, but unless he understands how to apply it, he isn't going to beat his opponent, because if his opponent has mastered the Codex too, he knows the counters to the counters. Because obviously the Codex is going to have counter moves covered, no?

Any time you read some fluff where a character says "According to the Codex", and then fills in with a gap with a mandated action, you can pretty much stop reading there, because it's a hack author writing gibberish.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Surtur wrote:

Why do people insist it's Codex ultramarines? That codex hasn't been around since 2nd.

To be fair, most Space Marines are pretty 2 dimensional. GW needs to do some serious writing if they want anything more.

Have you looked at the Codex? All the painting guides are for Ultramarines (4th Eds was titled "How to paint Ultramarines). The majority of the special characters are Ultramarines. The majority of the fluff is about the Ultramarines.


They renamed the book Codex: Space Marines for marketing reasons. It was less confusing to the new players trying to figure out what book they were supposed to buy to play "regular" Space Marines. The book remained Codex: Ultramarines in practice, just not in name.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 snooggums wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Technically, what that passage says is that the Successors of the Ultramarines venerate Guilliman (as he is their genetic founder), and that the non-Ultramarines followers of the Codex merely aspire to that standard set forth in the Codex.

It never says that they wish they were Ultramarines.

"These Chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman." - wouldn't be included if it didn't infer that White Scars, Imperial Fists, and Raven Guard members would be Ultras except for the lack of Ultramarine gene-seed.

The whole page talks about how they would be Ultramarines if they could. It is blindingly clear that page 24 (the rest of the codex not so blatant) is about how Ultras are perfect, the other Legions were divergent. No, the exact words aren't strung together, but the context and inference is quite clear.

You do realize that all Codexes are written with the perspective of their faction right? Codex: Space Marines is Codex: Ultramarines.

And the inference you're making is manufactured. The words aren't there. You're just inventing context. Which is fine, but that's not what the book says.

I looked at the cover, it says Codex: Space Marines. The hilarious response is to quote you because it applies directly to your post:

The inference you're making is manufactured. The words aren't there. You're just inventing context. Which is fine, but that's not what the book says.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 MrScience wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:
I don't think the Ultramarines are boring. Read the Horus Heresy book Know No Fear, and you'll have a totally new perspective on the ol' Smurfs.

I agree to an extent. Graham McNeil has made them much more falliable than what's portrayed in the codex. Honestly I found the whole 'spiritual liege' thing very silly. Along with the idea that it's a bad thing that certain chapters could 'never be Ultramarines'.

Unfortunately it seems that without the black library the UMs seem to suffer from a liberal dose of mary sue, especially with regards to Tigurius.

Graham McNeill didn't write Know No Fear, for the record, Dan Abnett did.

I realise that, sorry. I was referring to his books about the UMs, which I felt actually gave them personality and flaws. Actually prone to feth ups, as it were.

snooggums wrote:I looked at the cover, it says Codex: Space Marines. The hilarious response is to quote you because it applies directly to your post:

The inference you're making is manufactured. The words aren't there. You're just inventing context. Which is fine, but that's not what the book says.

Snarky quips are all well and good, and I'm glad that you managed to amuse yourself.

The reality remains the same regardless.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

snooggums wrote:I looked at the cover, it says Codex: Space Marines. The hilarious response is to quote you because it applies directly to your post:

The inference you're making is manufactured. The words aren't there. You're just inventing context. Which is fine, but that's not what the book says.

Snarky quips are all well and good, and I'm glad that you managed to amuse yourself.

The reality remains the same regardless.

Not really, as I don't remember Khan or Vulkan being Ultramarines, nor being successors to them either.

Thankfully most of us know that the codex is for the codex adhering chapters (though I would still argue that IH and SA don't fit that).

On topic: I'd play up the greco-roman theme and use the novels as a springboard instead of just the codex. There are a ton of interesting characters and events you can use to help you personalize your UM without feeling like you're playing something else. It's all about the fluff

I honestly think them being more progressive can provide a lot of room for conflict and should be expanded upon.

1) The friction it causes with the numerous archaic and oppressive IoM factions.
2) The consequences of being progressive. There is a logic behind the more brutal and medieval logic of other factions. As a whole the IoM would probably be better off if it allowed itself to liberalize to a certain extent but there is a reason leaders have adopted the methods that they have seeing the consequences that result from more benevolent governship could provide a lot of room for some great storytelling and philosophical discussion on issues such as liberty versus security.

Progressive in grimdark can actually being a very compelling and interesting feature as long as it's done correctly.

 BudForTheBeerGod wrote:
If you want more interesting Ultramarines, paint them black, give them spikey bits, top-knots, the mad-max version of their current gear, and give calgar a giant claw and a bastard sword that has faces built into the blade... oh... wait... that would be chaos!

Ultramarines are at least more interesting than chaos marines.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Not many people playing now remember this, but the Ultramarines used to be not-boring, actually. The Ultramarines today are supposedly the shining paragons of perfection who can do no wrong, at least in Ward's eyes; the Ultramarines of earlier eras were written as the by-the-book uptight donkey-cave Chapter.

They used to stick to the Codex Astartes, regardless of whether the Codex was remotely applicable to the situation, do everything perfectly by the Codex, screw over their own brothers if the Codex demanded it, et cetera. .

They were actually never written like that in the old days. That was an invention of Graham McNeill. The older fluff said they stuck to the Codex, but that was described as an advantage, not a hindrance. That's why they were "The greatest of all Space Marine Chapters". It didn't make them donkey-caves, it just made them masters of the battlefield.

The Space Marine Codex, the Space Marine video game, the Ultramarines movie, these portray the prowess of the Space Marines being proportional to how perfectly they stick to the Codex, which in itself is a problem. No document can be perfect, even approach perfect, in the real world; in the GRIMDARKNESS of 40k the Codex is realistically full of holes, incomplete predictions about what scenarios the Chapter may face, overly-rigid guidelines about organization, et cetera. If we got that interpretation of how the Codex worked back it'd solve most of the problems with the Ultramarines right off the bat.

This is actually your misconception of what the Codex is (again the fault of McNeill). It was never supposed to be a set of rules for fighting battles. It was supposed to be a masterful tome full of examples and scenarios and the wisdom of countless commanders that a Space Marine leader could draw on to adapt to the battlefield situations. it was never supposed to be an instruction manual where there was an "answer" for everything. It was supposed to be like blending the wisdom of all the classical geniuses Sun Tzu, Clauswitz, etc into a single tome, and then filling it with the notes and observances of Guilliman and other great 40K universe generals. If you read the old fluff about the Codex, it is never described as an instruction manual. It's just that a few bad authors came up with that idea and inserted it into a handful of bad stories. From there, it's become some terrible 40K meme as more bad fluff writers have built upon that stupid idea.

It's why there is so much conflicting info about the Codex. Different writers write it different ways. That bad writers approach the Codex thinking it's some "Warfighting for Dummies" instruction manual. It's not. No warfighting publication in the history of ever has been written like that, lol. Let alone one written by the guy who is supposed to be the genius of all military geniuses.

The problem with something like that is that for any given situation, there are hundreds of variables. You can't create a formulaic response for any given situation, because every situation is different. A commander has to weigh his forces, enemy forces, weaponry, logistics, air support, supporting fires, enemy fires and air support, reinforcements, enemy reinforcements, time of day, environment, terrain, weather, and that's just to start, and things that apply to earth. The Codex would need thousands of examples for any given scenario if you were going to have a reaction you were supposed to memorize and use every time. It's farcical.

What makes the idea of the Codex being predictable is that you'd have to be a master of the Codex to predict it. Yes, in order to beat a great general, you'd have to be... a greater general. Wow, just in real life. The guys who win great battles have done so typically by being smarter, and thinking quicker on their feed than their opponent. So sure, a Chaos general could have read the Codex, but unless he understands how to apply it, he isn't going to beat his opponent, because if his opponent has mastered the Codex too, he knows the counters to the counters. Because obviously the Codex is going to have counter moves covered, no?

Any time you read some fluff where a character says "According to the Codex", and then fills in with a gap with a mandated action, you can pretty much stop reading there, because it's a hack author writing gibberish.

It may have been an invention of Grahm McNiell, but that doesn't mean it doesn't make the Ultramarines a hell of a lot more interesting than their current 'perfect' incarnation. Being the 'greatest' among the Space Marines isn't anywhere near enough to come up with a distinct and interesting Chapter, and the whole Greco-Roman theme is merely appearance.

What makes a character interesting isn't what sort of awesome things they can do, but what their flaws are. The Ultramarines were always built around the flaw of Pride, but in later editions it's become rather an informed flaw, not something we actually see affect anything. It doesn't even have to be presented as an insistence on sticking to the Codex Astartes to remain interesting; an insistence on a specific set of interpretations of an inherently vague document would be just as much of an improvement over the current "the Codex is perfect and the Ultramarines know exactly when to stick to it and exactly when to ignore it anyway" interpretation of things.

That's my interpretation, at least; it makes the Ultramarines a heck of a lot less of a Mary Sue faction, while still keeping to the spirit of what they are/were more than larger changes would have to.

I would really love a fleshed out story of Cassius and the vets vs. the tyranids...

AnomanderRake wrote:What makes a character interesting isn't what sort of awesome things they can do, but what their flaws are. The Ultramarines were always built around the flaw of Pride, but in later editions it's become rather an informed flaw, not something we actually see affect anything. It doesn't even have to be presented as an insistence on sticking to the Codex Astartes to remain interesting; an insistence on a specific set of interpretations of an inherently vague document would be just as much of an improvement over the current "the Codex is perfect and the Ultramarines know exactly when to stick to it and exactly when to ignore it anyway" interpretation of things.

That's my interpretation, at least; it makes the Ultramarines a heck of a lot less of a Mary Sue faction, while still keeping to the spirit of what they are/were more than larger changes would have to.

Human characters are built around flaws.

Adding flaws to Space Marines is a plot device, lame storytelling. Space Marines aren't very interesting, three dimensional characters. They're supposed to be giant, psychologically conditioned and indoctrinated killing machines. By their very definition, they don't need any other flaws than just being detached murderers. By the virtue of being Space Marines, the Ultramarines have all of those normal "flaws". Creating some cheap narrative hook doesn't make them more three dimensional.

Calling Space Marines "Mary Sues" is somewhat incorrect. After all, nobody should actually want to be a Space Marine. Centuries of warfare, broken up by stretches long tedious training, with death or crippling dismemberment as the only ultimate reward? The Ultramarines just happen to be the most visible chapter without some cheap narrative hook. They win some times, they lose sometimes, just like all the other Chapters. They just happen to have been the most successful Chapter, with the most influence. Somebody had to be those guys.

Nothing can fix them. Their website for example:

http://m.thenewlogistics.ups.com/

"We <3 Logistics!"

Im on the side of leave them alone. They are fine the way they are.

They are suppose to be normal, honorable, loyal, etc... Marines.

I dont want them becoming too unqiue and I show as hell dont want them becoming retardedly different like Blood Angels or something.

I forget who said it but i like the idea of showing them influenced by the Romans. For some reason seeing the ultramarines as futuristice romans is very appealing to me.

I've always liked the Ultramarines, and I play them myself, because I saw them as the average joes. I liked playing as soldiers who were just soldiers. Space vampires and space werewolves are cool, but i think theyre kinda over the top. I TRY to play with the idea that if you cant beat somebody with smart tactics and you need to resort to some crazy wolf riding barbarian then youre doing something wrong.

That said, I think moving away from the zealousness of the UM towards the codex might be a good thing. It's like in the books and in the Relic game, when you focus too much on what the codex says you lost the overall meaning behind it. I think fleshing that out and making them good, honest grunts would work well. For me at least...

Strongly emphasize the Roman undertones. Start small, by having battle-brothers be called legionaries, captains are centurions, etc. Introduce more shields and javelins (large, rectangular combat shields and gladii are common amongst battle-brothers) Keep the rigid adherence to the Codex, and make them renowned for discipline. Also, highlight Ultramar. The Romans built one of the most famous empires known to man, so draw the parallel with Ultramar.

Black Knight wrote:
Strongly emphasize the Roman undertones. Start small, by having battle-brothers be called legionaries, captains are centurions, etc. Introduce more shields and javelins (large, rectangular combat shields and gladii are common amongst battle-brothers) Keep the rigid adherence to the Codex, and make them renowned for discipline. Also, highlight Ultramar. The Romans built one of the most famous empires known to man, so draw the parallel with Ultramar.

You know, ill actually update mine and say that if I had to do something for them to give at least a little more flair this would be it. Make them badass Romans

 Ronin wrote:
So without a doubt, there's a certain amount of Ultramarines hate flying around, and with it, Ward hate, and Imperium hate and what have you. While it is entirely understandable why a vast majority of 40kers could view the Ultramarines Chapter as bland, without personality, and without flaws, I want to ask the Dakka community what would they do to make the Chapter more appealing?

For me personally, while the Ultramarines have always been something of the posterboy (even before Ward), I sort of also remembered them as the underdogs, the average joe, when I was a kid. And that the massive losses they suffered at the Battle of Macragge was the epitome of that, the lowly underdog winning out, but only slightly and with great loss. Their willingness to re-interpret the Codex in order to create the Tyrannic War Veterans shows me the determination they have to ensure it would never happen again. Of course, I was a kid, and my viewpoint has probably been skewed.

One way, I think, to fix it is that the Ultramarines always have had a Greco-Roman feel to them, but that only ever reached as far as their aesthetics and naming conventions, but that was really about it. We hear how awesome the Ultramar sector is, time and time again, but we dont really know what impact the Ultramar culture/upbringing have on the Ultramarines, like we do for the Wolves and Fenris, or Baal for the Blood Angels. I think it would be better if GW/BL did a better job of introducing that "Roman way of war" into the Ultramarines' psyche, and that could help explain their strict discipline and obedience to the Codex, as opposed to "Our Primarch wrote the bestest book on war, evar, and thats all we need".
Also, I think downplaying that whole "perfect" thing would help. As I said, I used to view them as the average joe marines, and would be good to see a return to that form, I think.

So what does Dakka think?

PS: Ward hate to a minimum, please

Re-write their fluff to something more like what you read in Graham Mcneill's books

Black Knight wrote:
Strongly emphasize the Roman undertones. Start small, by having battle-brothers be called legionaries, captains are centurions, etc. Introduce more shields and javelins (large, rectangular combat shields and gladii are common amongst battle-brothers) Keep the rigid adherence to the Codex, and make them renowned for discipline. Also, highlight Ultramar. The Romans built one of the most famous empires known to man, so draw the parallel with Ultramar.

And for the final Roman touch, add potential for severe infighting and politicking, extending to most of their second-founding descendants too.

Alternatively, get rid of the Roman undertones entirely, and emphasise the Spartan ones. Make Ultramar stand for two things only - war and slavery. Also include a shocking fall to Chaos by one of their most illustrious chaptermasters, preferably Calgar's immediate predecessor. A bit like Pausanias - victor from Platea one year, conspiring with the Persians the next.

thefarseerofnorthryde wrote:
Re-write their fluff to something more like what you read in Graham Mcneill's books

Please God no.

Graham McNeill was the worst thing that ever happened to the Ultramarines.

Visitor13 wrote:
And for the final Roman touch, add potential for severe infighting and politicking, extending to most of their second-founding descendants too.

I like this idea, if only because it takes one of the more interesting aspects of the McNeill books and the current fluff.

Visitor13 wrote:
Alternatively, get rid of the Roman undertones entirely, and emphasise the Spartan ones. Make Ultramar stand for two things only - war and slavery.

Too large of a retcon, and it goes completely against the established image of Ultramar.

Visitor13 wrote:
Also include a shocking fall to Chaos by one of their most illustrious chaptermasters, preferably Calgar's immediate predecessor. A bit like Pausanias - victor from Platea one year, conspiring with the Persians the next.

I don't think that's a good idea. It's just "...And then one of them fell to Chaos!", which is lazy writing.

"The Salamanders were an awesome chapter of fire-using humanitarians who everyone liked... And then one of them fell to Chaos!'

It doesn't really fix the problems in the chapter; it can be useful as a twist in a single story, but it's not going to really change the status of the chapter to have one guy betray them.

Unless this one guy was say similar to Cypher of the DA which Imho is people intresting. The person would have to either :
1) Kill somone important in the Ultramar Chapter (Calgar although that would anger people with calgar minfig...) then escape and join the Heresey.
or 2) Have the one guy be a hero who saved the day for a vital battle or campaign which then turns out to be the biggest massacre of the Ultramarine Chapter when the traitor calls a chaos fleet to come out of nowhere and he escapes. The first battle before chaos came would have to be something that threatens the whole of Ulttramar.

1068SCP wrote:

Visitor13 wrote:
Also include a shocking fall to Chaos by one of their most illustrious chaptermasters, preferably Calgar's immediate predecessor. A bit like Pausanias - victor from Platea one year, conspiring with the Persians the next.

I don't think that's a good idea. It's just "...And then one of them fell to Chaos!", which is lazy writing.

"The Salamanders were an awesome chapter of fire-using humanitarians who everyone liked... And then one of them fell to Chaos!'

It doesn't really fix the problems in the chapter; it can be useful as a twist in a single story, but it's not going to really change the status of the chapter to have one guy betray them.

The idea behind this is the same as with the Roman-like infighting. Right now, the Ultras are the rock at the core of humanity. Let's make things interesting and make a few cracks in the rock.

The fall of a Chapter Master is a big enough crack, IMO. You could then have some of their staunchest allies lose trust in them, and maybe even turn against them - preferably with some help from the Death Strike chapter, the Minotaurs and their mysterious overlords, and maybe even a Black Templar or two.

IMO a far more worthy challenge for the supposedly best chapter than Behemoth or M'Kar, who were ultimately doomed to splatter against the Ultras' God Mode. Not so much of an outright civil war; more of a desperate attempt to regain the lost trust and prestige.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

thefarseerofnorthryde wrote:
Re-write their fluff to something more like what you read in Graham Mcneill's books

Graham McNeill was the best thing that ever happened to the Ultramarines.

Fixed that for you


I understand that a lot of older UM fans dont like his books but that doesnt change the fact that a lot of people love them and find that it was his books that saved the UM in the eyes of a lot of people.

Im in the camp of enjoying the books obviously

Gotta agree with the making UM like Romans ,after all fluff can agree and by fluff i mean real life history about Romans and how Terra is earth. I think making them like spartans is a bit over the top also the war and slavering idea is just non-Space Marine, but i like the idea of Romans. Im thinking add a special weapon for bikers a power lance, power weapon that gives +1 I and +1A, obviously would need to be costly. Also elite unit javelin throwers maybe were each caused wound would give double wounds.That's all the ideas i could think to make about Romanizing the UM.

They don't need more units. The culture should be enough.

They should make the Chaos Marines even want to secretly be Ultramarines.

That's all they are missing at this point, right?

(I like the Ultramarines. They are fine as they are. Maybe make them a little less of codex-thumpers, though)

 AtariAssasin wrote:
I've always liked the Ultramarines, and I play them myself, because I saw them as the average joes. I liked playing as soldiers who were just soldiers.

So Ultramarines are actually Guard.

I understand this, I just don't understand how people avoid feeling so foolish about it that they change their opinions. Space Marines have undeniably mystical dimension, they make terrible soldier or special forces characters. It's because they are literally magic. There is nothing hard boiled about them.

Blue and green should never be seen. The novels and the video game to not actually exist.

The current codex was legitimately planned and written as Codex: Ultramarines until late in development. Oh well, maybe next time. Yeah, I think all chapters should be marginalized except the Ultramarines. Well, as long as they had some more color available.

They should make the Chaos Marines even
want to secretly be Ultramarines.

Yes, pathos, exactly. Exactly.

 Galdos wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

thefarseerofnorthryde wrote:
Re-write their fluff to something more like what you read in Graham Mcneill's books

Graham McNeill was the best thing that ever happened to the Ultramarines.

Fixed that for you


I understand that a lot of older UM fans dont like his books but that doesnt change the fact that a lot of people love them and find that it was his books that saved the UM in the eyes of a lot of people.

Im in the camp of enjoying the books obviously

Well, it's okay to like awful books, lol.

But the bottom line is. McNeill's books are very, very poorly written, and McNeill obviously understands nothing of warfare and warfighting. All of the plots are these forced affairs where the protagonist is punished for doing exactly what has been praised in military leadership for centuries, lol. It's like McNeill decided that the Codex was this book that taught you to do the exact opposite of what you should do as a field commander, in any given situation, and that somehow that was a good way of portraying what is supposed to be the greatest military text ever compiled.

The issue is portraying the 'greatest military text ever compiled' as always correct. If you look at the works we consider 'great military texts' these days (The Art of War, The Military Institutions of the Romans, On War, the like), they're all very vague. They don't mention specific weapons, specific situations, specific anything, which is why they remain relevant today. Unfortunately that also means that they're open to interpretation; The Art of War in the hands of an imbecile is about as useful as a cookbook. Most sources portray the Codex Astartes as far more specific than any modern military text, referencing specific weapons, specific formations, specific tactics, et cetera; it should be inherently flawed if it's specific enough to tell people exactly what to do with what weapon when. The Ultramarines are supposed to stick to the letter of what the Codex tells them to do; it might be right in some cases, it might be right in many cases, but at the end of the day it can't be right in all cases.

Plus this is 40k, the tone of the entire setting doesn't support anything being flawless in any way.

(Also, Veteran Sergeant, would you mind not tacking 'lol' and smiley Orks onto blunt negative statements? Trying to bounce the mood of a sentence back and forth that fast doesn't really work well...)

The problem isnt realy with the ultramarines its with the other chapters because most of the time they get everything the codex marines get plus something extra, their flaws arn't realy flaws there advantages, even thought they're missing half the implants a marine should have they can still do every thing an ultramarine can. does that scream special snowflake to anyone else?

Plus why do people keep wanting to change the ultras? if you dont like playing as one of the last chapters fighting to protect humanity, defending the last bastion of the emperors vision.
Then go play one of the other chapters that fight becuase they hate every one, thats what they're ther for.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Galdos wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

thefarseerofnorthryde wrote:
Re-write their fluff to something more like what you read in Graham Mcneill's books

Graham McNeill was the best thing that ever happened to the Ultramarines.

Fixed that for you


I understand that a lot of older UM fans dont like his books but that doesnt change the fact that a lot of people love them and find that it was his books that saved the UM in the eyes of a lot of people.

Im in the camp of enjoying the books obviously

Well, it's okay to like awful books, lol.

But the bottom line is. McNeill's books are very, very poorly written, and McNeill obviously understands nothing of warfare and warfighting. All of the plots are these forced affairs where the protagonist is punished for doing exactly what has been praised in military leadership for centuries, lol. It's like McNeill decided that the Codex was this book that taught you to do the exact opposite of what you should do as a field commander, in any given situation, and that somehow that was a good way of portraying what is supposed to be the greatest military text ever compiled.

The issue is we don't even know what the Codex actually contains, we know that it has the collected knowledge of the greatest military events or tactics etc. But in what context?

Plus why do people keep wanting to change the ultras? if you dont like playing as one of the last chapters fighting to protect humanity, defending the last bastion of the emperors vision.

Are you implying every other chapter isn't fighting for the Imperium?

That's not a very nice thing to say about chapters like the Lamenters.

People take issue with the Ultramarines being special snowflakes, as you call it, because Roboute Guilliman is apparently OUR SPIRITUAL LIEGE

Crazyterran wrote:
They should make the Chaos Marines even want to secretly be Ultramarines.

That's all they are missing at this point, right?

(I like the Ultramarines. They are fine as they are. Maybe make them a little less of codex-thumpers, though)

"Eldar cannot be Ultramarines, for they do not share the gene-seed of Guilliman, but they revere his teachings and aspire to his awesomeness." = Matt Ward, 6th edition Eldar codex.

Eldrad was swallowed up by Slaanesh because he realised he could never be an Ultramarine.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The issue is portraying the 'greatest military text ever compiled' as always correct. If you look at the works we consider 'great military texts' these days (The Art of War, The Military Institutions of the Romans, On War, the like), they're all very vague. They don't mention specific weapons, specific situations, specific anything, which is why they remain relevant today. Unfortunately that also means that they're open to interpretation; The Art of War in the hands of an imbecile is about as useful as a cookbook. Most sources portray the Codex Astartes as far more specific than any modern military text, referencing specific weapons, specific formations, specific tactics, et cetera; it should be inherently flawed if it's specific enough to tell people exactly what to do with what weapon when. The Ultramarines are supposed to stick to the letter of what the Codex tells them to do; it might be right in some cases, it might be right in many cases, but at the end of the day it can't be right in all cases.

Plus this is 40k, the tone of the entire setting doesn't support anything being flawless in any way.

(Also, Veteran Sergeant, would you mind not tacking 'lol' and smiley Orks onto blunt negative statements? Trying to bounce the mood of a sentence back and forth that fast doesn't really work well...)

The Art of War is fething awful.

Im kind of baffled by how much credit it gets for being amazing when its just a book of litterally common sense.

The book is an entire book of "if the enemy out numbers you in every way, dont do a frontal assault." If anyone actually needed this book to help them become a good leader, they have no business being a leader in the first place.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

But the bottom line is. McNeill's books are very, very poorly written, and McNeill obviously understands nothing of warfare and warfighting....

I get where you are coming from. Im not saying his books are amazing. I remember finding the first two books were so predicatable is was maddening. (10 bucks says he is an Inquisitor / no the IF Cpt. cant die yet, its too early, he will die in a few scenes) But at the time there wernt many SM novels to began with and the book wasnt horrible, is still told a nice basic story that fit the universe without having annoying characters.


Also the point about understanding military warfare is a problem in any book by any of the Black Library authors. I remember scratching my head in a Gaunt's Ghost book when the commanders did something that everyone was like "this will turn the tide" yet in reality I know that is asking for trouble. What you have to do is does it make at least somewhat sense (in this situation there was some good logic behind the decision, even if there were better ones) and just give them credit for things. Cut them slack and try not to over think what the proper military response would be. It makes many of these books easier to read and enjoyable.


Oh I dont actually care if you like them but I would like it if you understood that his books actually provided a save gracing for the UMs for a lot of people and people do enjoy his stories. His most recent one did a VERY good job at making the UM appear good but not "the Emperor's only regret is he wasnt an Ultramarine" amazing the codex makes them and their SCs out to be. Their SCs are competant but they arnt the greatest beings in existance, people like the Chapter Master makes mistakes, the Librarian collapses from over use of his powers, the scout is out scouted by a few Raven Guard marines. It humbles the UMs but gives them personality

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Well, it's okay to like awful books, lol.

But the bottom line is. McNeill's books are very, very poorly written, and McNeill obviously understands nothing of warfare and warfighting. All of the plots are these forced affairs where the protagonist is punished for doing exactly what has been praised in military leadership for centuries, lol. It's like McNeill decided that the Codex was this book that taught you to do the exact opposite of what you should do as a field commander, in any given situation, and that somehow that was a good way of portraying what is supposed to be the greatest military text ever compiled.

I think McNeil's books can be decent. Nightbringer is okay once you get past the over-the-top gore, and I liked the character interactions of Warriors of Ultramar. Dead Sky, Black Sun was hilarious, even if it was horrible in every other way (Seriously, that book is so bad it ends up getting funny). The fourth book was an okay ghost story. Unfortunately, the third and fourth aren't actually Ultramarines books, and the second is more "Ultramarines are totally uncool, join the Deathwatch and be an awesome marine!"

By silencing everyone who thinks they are boring.

1068SCP wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Well, it's okay to like awful books, lol.

But the bottom line is. McNeill's books are very, very poorly written, and McNeill obviously understands nothing of warfare and warfighting. All of the plots are these forced affairs where the protagonist is punished for doing exactly what has been praised in military leadership for centuries, lol. It's like McNeill decided that the Codex was this book that taught you to do the exact opposite of what you should do as a field commander, in any given situation, and that somehow that was a good way of portraying what is supposed to be the greatest military text ever compiled.

I think McNeil's books can be decent. Nightbringer is okay once you get past the over-the-top gore, and I liked the character interactions of Warriors of Ultramar. Dead Sky, Black Sun was hilarious, even if it was horrible in every other way (Seriously, that book is so bad it ends up getting funny). The fourth book was an okay ghost story. Unfortunately, the third and fourth aren't actually Ultramarines books, and the second is more "Ultramarines are totally uncool, join the Deathwatch and be an awesome marine!"

What was so funny about Black Sun?

Does anyone else have an issue with Warhammer books feeling forcibly grimdark? Though it's not 40k I actually like Guardians of the Forest and the Blackheart Ominbus because while gak gets real, people are dicks, and good people die by the dozens...at least I gave a damn about the characters. I actually suffered some suspense on whether or not people would die or not.

 Shlazaor wrote:
What was so funny about Black Sun?

The incredibly hamfisted attempt at showing insanity in the text. Uriel's attempt to rally the other marines with logic like "We're marines, so we're awesome, so we'll win!" The amazingly graphic description of people being turned into skins, which sounds ridiculous because the very concept is ridiculous. The way the Unfleshed pray to a giant altar of the Empire. The Daemonculaba (McNeill seriously has issues) and the scene where Uriel is born. Honsou giving a Bloodthirster a serious chewing out. Passaneus wangsting about his arm. The lack of any Ultramarines in an Ultramarines book.

And of course, there is a DAEMON TRAIN.

It's a book so forcibly Grimdark and absurd that I can't help but laugh at it.

1068SCP wrote:

 Shlazaor wrote:
What was so funny about Black Sun?

The incredibly hamfisted attempt at showing insanity in the text. Uriel's attempt to rally the other marines with logic like "We're marines, so we're awesome, so we'll win!" The amazingly graphic description of people being turned into skins, which sounds ridiculous because the very concept is ridiculous. The way the Unfleshed pray to a giant altar of the Empire. The Daemonculaba (McNeill seriously has issues) and the scene where Uriel is born. Honsou giving a Bloodthirster a serious chewing out. Passaneus wangsting about his arm. The lack of any Ultramarines in an Ultramarines book.

And of course, there is a DAEMON TRAIN.

It's a book so forcibly Grimdark and absurd that I can't help but laugh at it.

Daemon Train? (googled and couldn't find it)

 Shlazaor wrote:

1068SCP wrote:

 Shlazaor wrote:
What was so funny about Black Sun?

The incredibly hamfisted attempt at showing insanity in the text. Uriel's attempt to rally the other marines with logic like "We're marines, so we're awesome, so we'll win!" The amazingly graphic description of people being turned into skins, which sounds ridiculous because the very concept is ridiculous. The way the Unfleshed pray to a giant altar of the Empire. The Daemonculaba (McNeill seriously has issues) and the scene where Uriel is born. Honsou giving a Bloodthirster a serious chewing out. Passaneus wangsting about his arm. The lack of any Ultramarines in an Ultramarines book.

And of course, there is a DAEMON TRAIN.

It's a book so forcibly Grimdark and absurd that I can't help but laugh at it.

Daemon Train? (googled and couldn't find it)

The Omphalus Daemonium (or however the hell you spell it). It was a deamonic steam train that picked up Uriel and Pasanius at the beginning of the book after the ship's Geller Field failed.

 Coolyo294 wrote:

 Shlazaor wrote:

1068SCP wrote:

 Shlazaor wrote:
What was so funny about Black Sun?

The incredibly hamfisted attempt at showing insanity in the text. Uriel's attempt to rally the other marines with logic like "We're marines, so we're awesome, so we'll win!" The amazingly graphic description of people being turned into skins, which sounds ridiculous because the very concept is ridiculous. The way the Unfleshed pray to a giant altar of the Empire. The Daemonculaba (McNeill seriously has issues) and the scene where Uriel is born. Honsou giving a Bloodthirster a serious chewing out. Passaneus wangsting about his arm. The lack of any Ultramarines in an Ultramarines book.

And of course, there is a DAEMON TRAIN.

It's a book so forcibly Grimdark and absurd that I can't help but laugh at it.

Daemon Train? (googled and couldn't find it)

The Omphalus Daemonium (or however the hell you spell it). It was a deamonic steam train that picked up Uriel and Pasanius at the beginning of the book after the ship's Geller Field failed.

Thanks. Honestly all of that sounds fething slowed.

Give them a strong sense of inner-corruption/hypocrisy. Make them more grimdark rather than a rather odd Tau-esque exception to the galaxy around them...

Just make them bisexual like real romans. Arrogant Paedophiles. Bam, they just got interesting.

 Henners91 wrote:
Give them a strong sense of inner-corruption/hypocrisy. Make them more grimdark rather than a rather odd Tau-esque exception to the galaxy around them...

Sure. While we're at it, the Blood Angels actively try to turn on the Black Rage, the Space Wolves are secretly Chaos worshippers, and the Salamanders now roast civilians alive over an open fire. No longer will they be rather odd Tau-esque exceptions to the galaxy around them.

Almarine wrote:
Just make them bisexual like real romans. Arrogant Paedophiles. Bam, they just got interesting.

And that way it'll appeal to children wandering in GW shop and doing pew-pew with their minis. And their parents.

I dunno, I'm an ultramarine fan as is. I like the idea of the 'best' chapter. A chapter that doesn't have any 'dark flaw' or 'hidden past' or wolf fetish, or mutation or whatever. They don't stand out because they are different, they stand out by being the best. The sort of yardstick, if you will. The chapter that all others must measure up to and inevitably be compared to. Everyone else is unique because the Ultramarines are normal.

I also kind of like the idea of them being giant ponces. Like they are always called the best and they make sure everyone knows it. Maybe that's just me being a ponce too but I like that. Super imperialistic, arrogant, poncy, but at the same time being the best and most dedicated. They are the only chapter like that (I think) and I think its good.

Ascetically they could use a bit more roman styled stuff. GW would probably have a tough time breaking away from Gothic stuff with a space marine chapter, but in subtle ways. Maybe just more numerals or giant columns or whatever, but it'd be a welcome break from just adding skulls and eagles to everything.

Almarine wrote:
Just make them bisexual like real romans. Arrogant Paedophiles. Bam, they just got interesting.

Bisexual and pedophilia are completely different things, as one is gender and the other is age. The Romans were just plain old child molesters.