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Not many people playing now remember this, but the Ultramarines used to be not-boring, actually. The Ultramarines today are supposedly the shining paragons of perfection who can do no wrong, at least in Ward's eyes; the Ultramarines of earlier eras were written as the by-the-book uptight donkey-cave Chapter.

They used to stick to the Codex Astartes, regardless of whether the Codex was remotely applicable to the situation, do everything perfectly by the Codex, screw over their own brothers if the Codex demanded it, et cetera. Ward retconned that entire character into 'the Codex is never wrong and when it is the Ultramarines know when to ignore it anyway'; the biggest piece of damage to the Ultramarines that turned them into the universally-reviled force they are today is when the Codex stopped being portrayed as flawed. The Space Marine Codex, the Space Marine video game, the Ultramarines movie, these portray the prowess of the Space Marines being proportional to how perfectly they stick to the Codex, which in itself is a problem. No document can be perfect, even approach perfect, in the real world; in the GRIMDARKNESS of 40k the Codex is realistically full of holes, incomplete predictions about what scenarios the Chapter may face, overly-rigid guidelines about organization, et cetera. If we got that interpretation of how the Codex worked back it'd solve most of the problems with the Ultramarines right off the bat.

 snooggums wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Technically, what that passage says is that the Successors of the Ultramarines venerate Guilliman (as he is their genetic founder), and that the non-Ultramarines followers of the Codex merely aspire to that standard set forth in the Codex.

It never says that they wish they were Ultramarines.

"These Chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman." - wouldn't be included if it didn't infer that White Scars, Imperial Fists, and Raven Guard members would be Ultras except for the lack of Ultramarine gene-seed.

The whole page talks about how they would be Ultramarines if they could. It is blindingly clear that page 24 (the rest of the codex not so blatant) is about how Ultras are perfect, the other Legions were divergent. No, the exact words aren't strung together, but the context and inference is quite clear.

You do realize that all Codexes are written with the perspective of their faction right? Codex: Space Marines is Codex: Ultramarines.

And the inference you're making is manufactured. The words aren't there. You're just inventing context. Which is fine, but that's not what the book says.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 snooggums wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Technically, what that passage says is that the Successors of the Ultramarines venerate Guilliman (as he is their genetic founder), and that the non-Ultramarines followers of the Codex merely aspire to that standard set forth in the Codex.

It never says that they wish they were Ultramarines.

"These Chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman." - wouldn't be included if it didn't infer that White Scars, Imperial Fists, and Raven Guard members would be Ultras except for the lack of Ultramarine gene-seed.

The whole page talks about how they would be Ultramarines if they could. It is blindingly clear that page 24 (the rest of the codex not so blatant) is about how Ultras are perfect, the other Legions were divergent. No, the exact words aren't strung together, but the context and inference is quite clear.

You do realize that all Codexes are written with the perspective of their faction right? Codex: Space Marines is Codex: Ultramarines.

And the inference you're making is manufactured. The words aren't there. You're just inventing context. Which is fine, but that's not what the book says.

Why do people insist it's Codex ultramarines? That codex hasn't been around since 2nd.

To be fair, most Space Marines are pretty 2 dimensional. GW needs to do some serious writing if they want anything more.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Not many people playing now remember this, but the Ultramarines used to be not-boring, actually. The Ultramarines today are supposedly the shining paragons of perfection who can do no wrong, at least in Ward's eyes; the Ultramarines of earlier eras were written as the by-the-book uptight donkey-cave Chapter.

They used to stick to the Codex Astartes, regardless of whether the Codex was remotely applicable to the situation, do everything perfectly by the Codex, screw over their own brothers if the Codex demanded it, et cetera. .

They were actually never written like that in the old days. That was an invention of Graham McNeill. The older fluff said they stuck to the Codex, but that was described as an advantage, not a hindrance. That's why they were "The greatest of all Space Marine Chapters". It didn't make them donkey-caves, it just made them masters of the battlefield.

The Space Marine Codex, the Space Marine video game, the Ultramarines movie, these portray the prowess of the Space Marines being proportional to how perfectly they stick to the Codex, which in itself is a problem. No document can be perfect, even approach perfect, in the real world; in the GRIMDARKNESS of 40k the Codex is realistically full of holes, incomplete predictions about what scenarios the Chapter may face, overly-rigid guidelines about organization, et cetera. If we got that interpretation of how the Codex worked back it'd solve most of the problems with the Ultramarines right off the bat.

This is actually your misconception of what the Codex is (again the fault of McNeill). It was never supposed to be a set of rules for fighting battles. It was supposed to be a masterful tome full of examples and scenarios and the wisdom of countless commanders that a Space Marine leader could draw on to adapt to the battlefield situations. it was never supposed to be an instruction manual where there was an "answer" for everything. It was supposed to be like blending the wisdom of all the classical geniuses Sun Tzu, Clauswitz, etc into a single tome, and then filling it with the notes and observances of Guilliman and other great 40K universe generals. If you read the old fluff about the Codex, it is never described as an instruction manual. It's just that a few bad authors came up with that idea and inserted it into a handful of bad stories. From there, it's become some terrible 40K meme as more bad fluff writers have built upon that stupid idea.

It's why there is so much conflicting info about the Codex. Different writers write it different ways. That bad writers approach the Codex thinking it's some "Warfighting for Dummies" instruction manual. It's not. No warfighting publication in the history of ever has been written like that, lol. Let alone one written by the guy who is supposed to be the genius of all military geniuses.

The problem with something like that is that for any given situation, there are hundreds of variables. You can't create a formulaic response for any given situation, because every situation is different. A commander has to weigh his forces, enemy forces, weaponry, logistics, air support, supporting fires, enemy fires and air support, reinforcements, enemy reinforcements, time of day, environment, terrain, weather, and that's just to start, and things that apply to earth. The Codex would need thousands of examples for any given scenario if you were going to have a reaction you were supposed to memorize and use every time. It's farcical.

What makes the idea of the Codex being predictable is that you'd have to be a master of the Codex to predict it. Yes, in order to beat a great general, you'd have to be... a greater general. Wow, just in real life. The guys who win great battles have done so typically by being smarter, and thinking quicker on their feed than their opponent. So sure, a Chaos general could have read the Codex, but unless he understands how to apply it, he isn't going to beat his opponent, because if his opponent has mastered the Codex too, he knows the counters to the counters. Because obviously the Codex is going to have counter moves covered, no?

Any time you read some fluff where a character says "According to the Codex", and then fills in with a gap with a mandated action, you can pretty much stop reading there, because it's a hack author writing gibberish.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Surtur wrote:

Why do people insist it's Codex ultramarines? That codex hasn't been around since 2nd.

To be fair, most Space Marines are pretty 2 dimensional. GW needs to do some serious writing if they want anything more.

Have you looked at the Codex? All the painting guides are for Ultramarines (4th Eds was titled "How to paint Ultramarines). The majority of the special characters are Ultramarines. The majority of the fluff is about the Ultramarines.


They renamed the book Codex: Space Marines for marketing reasons. It was less confusing to the new players trying to figure out what book they were supposed to buy to play "regular" Space Marines. The book remained Codex: Ultramarines in practice, just not in name.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 snooggums wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Technically, what that passage says is that the Successors of the Ultramarines venerate Guilliman (as he is their genetic founder), and that the non-Ultramarines followers of the Codex merely aspire to that standard set forth in the Codex.

It never says that they wish they were Ultramarines.

"These Chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman." - wouldn't be included if it didn't infer that White Scars, Imperial Fists, and Raven Guard members would be Ultras except for the lack of Ultramarine gene-seed.

The whole page talks about how they would be Ultramarines if they could. It is blindingly clear that page 24 (the rest of the codex not so blatant) is about how Ultras are perfect, the other Legions were divergent. No, the exact words aren't strung together, but the context and inference is quite clear.

You do realize that all Codexes are written with the perspective of their faction right? Codex: Space Marines is Codex: Ultramarines.

And the inference you're making is manufactured. The words aren't there. You're just inventing context. Which is fine, but that's not what the book says.

I looked at the cover, it says Codex: Space Marines. The hilarious response is to quote you because it applies directly to your post:

The inference you're making is manufactured. The words aren't there. You're just inventing context. Which is fine, but that's not what the book says.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 MrScience wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:
I don't think the Ultramarines are boring. Read the Horus Heresy book Know No Fear, and you'll have a totally new perspective on the ol' Smurfs.

I agree to an extent. Graham McNeil has made them much more falliable than what's portrayed in the codex. Honestly I found the whole 'spiritual liege' thing very silly. Along with the idea that it's a bad thing that certain chapters could 'never be Ultramarines'.

Unfortunately it seems that without the black library the UMs seem to suffer from a liberal dose of mary sue, especially with regards to Tigurius.

Graham McNeill didn't write Know No Fear, for the record, Dan Abnett did.

I realise that, sorry. I was referring to his books about the UMs, which I felt actually gave them personality and flaws. Actually prone to feth ups, as it were.

snooggums wrote:I looked at the cover, it says Codex: Space Marines. The hilarious response is to quote you because it applies directly to your post:

The inference you're making is manufactured. The words aren't there. You're just inventing context. Which is fine, but that's not what the book says.

Snarky quips are all well and good, and I'm glad that you managed to amuse yourself.

The reality remains the same regardless.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

snooggums wrote:I looked at the cover, it says Codex: Space Marines. The hilarious response is to quote you because it applies directly to your post:

The inference you're making is manufactured. The words aren't there. You're just inventing context. Which is fine, but that's not what the book says.

Snarky quips are all well and good, and I'm glad that you managed to amuse yourself.

The reality remains the same regardless.

Not really, as I don't remember Khan or Vulkan being Ultramarines, nor being successors to them either.

Thankfully most of us know that the codex is for the codex adhering chapters (though I would still argue that IH and SA don't fit that).

On topic: I'd play up the greco-roman theme and use the novels as a springboard instead of just the codex. There are a ton of interesting characters and events you can use to help you personalize your UM without feeling like you're playing something else. It's all about the fluff

I honestly think them being more progressive can provide a lot of room for conflict and should be expanded upon.

1) The friction it causes with the numerous archaic and oppressive IoM factions.
2) The consequences of being progressive. There is a logic behind the more brutal and medieval logic of other factions. As a whole the IoM would probably be better off if it allowed itself to liberalize to a certain extent but there is a reason leaders have adopted the methods that they have seeing the consequences that result from more benevolent governship could provide a lot of room for some great storytelling and philosophical discussion on issues such as liberty versus security.

Progressive in grimdark can actually being a very compelling and interesting feature as long as it's done correctly.

 BudForTheBeerGod wrote:
If you want more interesting Ultramarines, paint them black, give them spikey bits, top-knots, the mad-max version of their current gear, and give calgar a giant claw and a bastard sword that has faces built into the blade... oh... wait... that would be chaos!

Ultramarines are at least more interesting than chaos marines.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Not many people playing now remember this, but the Ultramarines used to be not-boring, actually. The Ultramarines today are supposedly the shining paragons of perfection who can do no wrong, at least in Ward's eyes; the Ultramarines of earlier eras were written as the by-the-book uptight donkey-cave Chapter.

They used to stick to the Codex Astartes, regardless of whether the Codex was remotely applicable to the situation, do everything perfectly by the Codex, screw over their own brothers if the Codex demanded it, et cetera. .

They were actually never written like that in the old days. That was an invention of Graham McNeill. The older fluff said they stuck to the Codex, but that was described as an advantage, not a hindrance. That's why they were "The greatest of all Space Marine Chapters". It didn't make them donkey-caves, it just made them masters of the battlefield.

The Space Marine Codex, the Space Marine video game, the Ultramarines movie, these portray the prowess of the Space Marines being proportional to how perfectly they stick to the Codex, which in itself is a problem. No document can be perfect, even approach perfect, in the real world; in the GRIMDARKNESS of 40k the Codex is realistically full of holes, incomplete predictions about what scenarios the Chapter may face, overly-rigid guidelines about organization, et cetera. If we got that interpretation of how the Codex worked back it'd solve most of the problems with the Ultramarines right off the bat.

This is actually your misconception of what the Codex is (again the fault of McNeill). It was never supposed to be a set of rules for fighting battles. It was supposed to be a masterful tome full of examples and scenarios and the wisdom of countless commanders that a Space Marine leader could draw on to adapt to the battlefield situations. it was never supposed to be an instruction manual where there was an "answer" for everything. It was supposed to be like blending the wisdom of all the classical geniuses Sun Tzu, Clauswitz, etc into a single tome, and then filling it with the notes and observances of Guilliman and other great 40K universe generals. If you read the old fluff about the Codex, it is never described as an instruction manual. It's just that a few bad authors came up with that idea and inserted it into a handful of bad stories. From there, it's become some terrible 40K meme as more bad fluff writers have built upon that stupid idea.

It's why there is so much conflicting info about the Codex. Different writers write it different ways. That bad writers approach the Codex thinking it's some "Warfighting for Dummies" instruction manual. It's not. No warfighting publication in the history of ever has been written like that, lol. Let alone one written by the guy who is supposed to be the genius of all military geniuses.

The problem with something like that is that for any given situation, there are hundreds of variables. You can't create a formulaic response for any given situation, because every situation is different. A commander has to weigh his forces, enemy forces, weaponry, logistics, air support, supporting fires, enemy fires and air support, reinforcements, enemy reinforcements, time of day, environment, terrain, weather, and that's just to start, and things that apply to earth. The Codex would need thousands of examples for any given scenario if you were going to have a reaction you were supposed to memorize and use every time. It's farcical.

What makes the idea of the Codex being predictable is that you'd have to be a master of the Codex to predict it. Yes, in order to beat a great general, you'd have to be... a greater general. Wow, just in real life. The guys who win great battles have done so typically by being smarter, and thinking quicker on their feed than their opponent. So sure, a Chaos general could have read the Codex, but unless he understands how to apply it, he isn't going to beat his opponent, because if his opponent has mastered the Codex too, he knows the counters to the counters. Because obviously the Codex is going to have counter moves covered, no?

Any time you read some fluff where a character says "According to the Codex", and then fills in with a gap with a mandated action, you can pretty much stop reading there, because it's a hack author writing gibberish.

It may have been an invention of Grahm McNiell, but that doesn't mean it doesn't make the Ultramarines a hell of a lot more interesting than their current 'perfect' incarnation. Being the 'greatest' among the Space Marines isn't anywhere near enough to come up with a distinct and interesting Chapter, and the whole Greco-Roman theme is merely appearance.

What makes a character interesting isn't what sort of awesome things they can do, but what their flaws are. The Ultramarines were always built around the flaw of Pride, but in later editions it's become rather an informed flaw, not something we actually see affect anything. It doesn't even have to be presented as an insistence on sticking to the Codex Astartes to remain interesting; an insistence on a specific set of interpretations of an inherently vague document would be just as much of an improvement over the current "the Codex is perfect and the Ultramarines know exactly when to stick to it and exactly when to ignore it anyway" interpretation of things.

That's my interpretation, at least; it makes the Ultramarines a heck of a lot less of a Mary Sue faction, while still keeping to the spirit of what they are/were more than larger changes would have to.

I would really love a fleshed out story of Cassius and the vets vs. the tyranids...

AnomanderRake wrote:What makes a character interesting isn't what sort of awesome things they can do, but what their flaws are. The Ultramarines were always built around the flaw of Pride, but in later editions it's become rather an informed flaw, not something we actually see affect anything. It doesn't even have to be presented as an insistence on sticking to the Codex Astartes to remain interesting; an insistence on a specific set of interpretations of an inherently vague document would be just as much of an improvement over the current "the Codex is perfect and the Ultramarines know exactly when to stick to it and exactly when to ignore it anyway" interpretation of things.

That's my interpretation, at least; it makes the Ultramarines a heck of a lot less of a Mary Sue faction, while still keeping to the spirit of what they are/were more than larger changes would have to.

Human characters are built around flaws.

Adding flaws to Space Marines is a plot device, lame storytelling. Space Marines aren't very interesting, three dimensional characters. They're supposed to be giant, psychologically conditioned and indoctrinated killing machines. By their very definition, they don't need any other flaws than just being detached murderers. By the virtue of being Space Marines, the Ultramarines have all of those normal "flaws". Creating some cheap narrative hook doesn't make them more three dimensional.

Calling Space Marines "Mary Sues" is somewhat incorrect. After all, nobody should actually want to be a Space Marine. Centuries of warfare, broken up by stretches long tedious training, with death or crippling dismemberment as the only ultimate reward? The Ultramarines just happen to be the most visible chapter without some cheap narrative hook. They win some times, they lose sometimes, just like all the other Chapters. They just happen to have been the most successful Chapter, with the most influence. Somebody had to be those guys.

Nothing can fix them. Their website for example:

http://m.thenewlogistics.ups.com/

"We <3 Logistics!"

Im on the side of leave them alone. They are fine the way they are.

They are suppose to be normal, honorable, loyal, etc... Marines.

I dont want them becoming too unqiue and I show as hell dont want them becoming retardedly different like Blood Angels or something.

I forget who said it but i like the idea of showing them influenced by the Romans. For some reason seeing the ultramarines as futuristice romans is very appealing to me.

I've always liked the Ultramarines, and I play them myself, because I saw them as the average joes. I liked playing as soldiers who were just soldiers. Space vampires and space werewolves are cool, but i think theyre kinda over the top. I TRY to play with the idea that if you cant beat somebody with smart tactics and you need to resort to some crazy wolf riding barbarian then youre doing something wrong.

That said, I think moving away from the zealousness of the UM towards the codex might be a good thing. It's like in the books and in the Relic game, when you focus too much on what the codex says you lost the overall meaning behind it. I think fleshing that out and making them good, honest grunts would work well. For me at least...

Strongly emphasize the Roman undertones. Start small, by having battle-brothers be called legionaries, captains are centurions, etc. Introduce more shields and javelins (large, rectangular combat shields and gladii are common amongst battle-brothers) Keep the rigid adherence to the Codex, and make them renowned for discipline. Also, highlight Ultramar. The Romans built one of the most famous empires known to man, so draw the parallel with Ultramar.

Black Knight wrote:
Strongly emphasize the Roman undertones. Start small, by having battle-brothers be called legionaries, captains are centurions, etc. Introduce more shields and javelins (large, rectangular combat shields and gladii are common amongst battle-brothers) Keep the rigid adherence to the Codex, and make them renowned for discipline. Also, highlight Ultramar. The Romans built one of the most famous empires known to man, so draw the parallel with Ultramar.

You know, ill actually update mine and say that if I had to do something for them to give at least a little more flair this would be it. Make them badass Romans

 Ronin wrote:
So without a doubt, there's a certain amount of Ultramarines hate flying around, and with it, Ward hate, and Imperium hate and what have you. While it is entirely understandable why a vast majority of 40kers could view the Ultramarines Chapter as bland, without personality, and without flaws, I want to ask the Dakka community what would they do to make the Chapter more appealing?

For me personally, while the Ultramarines have always been something of the posterboy (even before Ward), I sort of also remembered them as the underdogs, the average joe, when I was a kid. And that the massive losses they suffered at the Battle of Macragge was the epitome of that, the lowly underdog winning out, but only slightly and with great loss. Their willingness to re-interpret the Codex in order to create the Tyrannic War Veterans shows me the determination they have to ensure it would never happen again. Of course, I was a kid, and my viewpoint has probably been skewed.

One way, I think, to fix it is that the Ultramarines always have had a Greco-Roman feel to them, but that only ever reached as far as their aesthetics and naming conventions, but that was really about it. We hear how awesome the Ultramar sector is, time and time again, but we dont really know what impact the Ultramar culture/upbringing have on the Ultramarines, like we do for the Wolves and Fenris, or Baal for the Blood Angels. I think it would be better if GW/BL did a better job of introducing that "Roman way of war" into the Ultramarines' psyche, and that could help explain their strict discipline and obedience to the Codex, as opposed to "Our Primarch wrote the bestest book on war, evar, and thats all we need".
Also, I think downplaying that whole "perfect" thing would help. As I said, I used to view them as the average joe marines, and would be good to see a return to that form, I think.

So what does Dakka think?

PS: Ward hate to a minimum, please

Re-write their fluff to something more like what you read in Graham Mcneill's books

Black Knight wrote:
Strongly emphasize the Roman undertones. Start small, by having battle-brothers be called legionaries, captains are centurions, etc. Introduce more shields and javelins (large, rectangular combat shields and gladii are common amongst battle-brothers) Keep the rigid adherence to the Codex, and make them renowned for discipline. Also, highlight Ultramar. The Romans built one of the most famous empires known to man, so draw the parallel with Ultramar.

And for the final Roman touch, add potential for severe infighting and politicking, extending to most of their second-founding descendants too.

Alternatively, get rid of the Roman undertones entirely, and emphasise the Spartan ones. Make Ultramar stand for two things only - war and slavery. Also include a shocking fall to Chaos by one of their most illustrious chaptermasters, preferably Calgar's immediate predecessor. A bit like Pausanias - victor from Platea one year, conspiring with the Persians the next.

thefarseerofnorthryde wrote:
Re-write their fluff to something more like what you read in Graham Mcneill's books

Please God no.

Graham McNeill was the worst thing that ever happened to the Ultramarines.

Visitor13 wrote:
And for the final Roman touch, add potential for severe infighting and politicking, extending to most of their second-founding descendants too.

I like this idea, if only because it takes one of the more interesting aspects of the McNeill books and the current fluff.

Visitor13 wrote:
Alternatively, get rid of the Roman undertones entirely, and emphasise the Spartan ones. Make Ultramar stand for two things only - war and slavery.

Too large of a retcon, and it goes completely against the established image of Ultramar.

Visitor13 wrote:
Also include a shocking fall to Chaos by one of their most illustrious chaptermasters, preferably Calgar's immediate predecessor. A bit like Pausanias - victor from Platea one year, conspiring with the Persians the next.

I don't think that's a good idea. It's just "...And then one of them fell to Chaos!", which is lazy writing.

"The Salamanders were an awesome chapter of fire-using humanitarians who everyone liked... And then one of them fell to Chaos!'

It doesn't really fix the problems in the chapter; it can be useful as a twist in a single story, but it's not going to really change the status of the chapter to have one guy betray them.

Unless this one guy was say similar to Cypher of the DA which Imho is people intresting. The person would have to either :
1) Kill somone important in the Ultramar Chapter (Calgar although that would anger people with calgar minfig...) then escape and join the Heresey.
or 2) Have the one guy be a hero who saved the day for a vital battle or campaign which then turns out to be the biggest massacre of the Ultramarine Chapter when the traitor calls a chaos fleet to come out of nowhere and he escapes. The first battle before chaos came would have to be something that threatens the whole of Ulttramar.

1068SCP wrote:

Visitor13 wrote:
Also include a shocking fall to Chaos by one of their most illustrious chaptermasters, preferably Calgar's immediate predecessor. A bit like Pausanias - victor from Platea one year, conspiring with the Persians the next.

I don't think that's a good idea. It's just "...And then one of them fell to Chaos!", which is lazy writing.

"The Salamanders were an awesome chapter of fire-using humanitarians who everyone liked... And then one of them fell to Chaos!'

It doesn't really fix the problems in the chapter; it can be useful as a twist in a single story, but it's not going to really change the status of the chapter to have one guy betray them.

The idea behind this is the same as with the Roman-like infighting. Right now, the Ultras are the rock at the core of humanity. Let's make things interesting and make a few cracks in the rock.

The fall of a Chapter Master is a big enough crack, IMO. You could then have some of their staunchest allies lose trust in them, and maybe even turn against them - preferably with some help from the Death Strike chapter, the Minotaurs and their mysterious overlords, and maybe even a Black Templar or two.

IMO a far more worthy challenge for the supposedly best chapter than Behemoth or M'Kar, who were ultimately doomed to splatter against the Ultras' God Mode. Not so much of an outright civil war; more of a desperate attempt to regain the lost trust and prestige.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

thefarseerofnorthryde wrote:
Re-write their fluff to something more like what you read in Graham Mcneill's books

Graham McNeill was the best thing that ever happened to the Ultramarines.

Fixed that for you


I understand that a lot of older UM fans dont like his books but that doesnt change the fact that a lot of people love them and find that it was his books that saved the UM in the eyes of a lot of people.

Im in the camp of enjoying the books obviously

Gotta agree with the making UM like Romans ,after all fluff can agree and by fluff i mean real life history about Romans and how Terra is earth. I think making them like spartans is a bit over the top also the war and slavering idea is just non-Space Marine, but i like the idea of Romans. Im thinking add a special weapon for bikers a power lance, power weapon that gives +1 I and +1A, obviously would need to be costly. Also elite unit javelin throwers maybe were each caused wound would give double wounds.That's all the ideas i could think to make about Romanizing the UM.

They don't need more units. The culture should be enough.

They should make the Chaos Marines even want to secretly be Ultramarines.

That's all they are missing at this point, right?

(I like the Ultramarines. They are fine as they are. Maybe make them a little less of codex-thumpers, though)

 AtariAssasin wrote:
I've always liked the Ultramarines, and I play them myself, because I saw them as the average joes. I liked playing as soldiers who were just soldiers.

So Ultramarines are actually Guard.

I understand this, I just don't understand how people avoid feeling so foolish about it that they change their opinions. Space Marines have undeniably mystical dimension, they make terrible soldier or special forces characters. It's because they are literally magic. There is nothing hard boiled about them.

Blue and green should never be seen. The novels and the video game to not actually exist.

The current codex was legitimately planned and written as Codex: Ultramarines until late in development. Oh well, maybe next time. Yeah, I think all chapters should be marginalized except the Ultramarines. Well, as long as they had some more color available.

They should make the Chaos Marines even
want to secretly be Ultramarines.

Yes, pathos, exactly. Exactly.