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So without a doubt, there's a certain amount of Ultramarines hate flying around, and with it, Ward hate, and Imperium hate and what have you. While it is entirely understandable why a vast majority of 40kers could view the Ultramarines Chapter as bland, without personality, and without flaws, I want to ask the Dakka community what would they do to make the Chapter more appealing?

For me personally, while the Ultramarines have always been something of the posterboy (even before Ward), I sort of also remembered them as the underdogs, the average joe, when I was a kid. And that the massive losses they suffered at the Battle of Macragge was the epitome of that, the lowly underdog winning out, but only slightly and with great loss. Their willingness to re-interpret the Codex in order to create the Tyrannic War Veterans shows me the determination they have to ensure it would never happen again. Of course, I was a kid, and my viewpoint has probably been skewed.

One way, I think, to fix it is that the Ultramarines always have had a Greco-Roman feel to them, but that only ever reached as far as their aesthetics and naming conventions, but that was really about it. We hear how awesome the Ultramar sector is, time and time again, but we dont really know what impact the Ultramar culture/upbringing have on the Ultramarines, like we do for the Wolves and Fenris, or Baal for the Blood Angels. I think it would be better if GW/BL did a better job of introducing that "Roman way of war" into the Ultramarines' psyche, and that could help explain their strict discipline and obedience to the Codex, as opposed to "Our Primarch wrote the bestest book on war, evar, and thats all we need".
Also, I think downplaying that whole "perfect" thing would help. As I said, I used to view them as the average joe marines, and would be good to see a return to that form, I think.

So what does Dakka think?

PS: Ward hate to a minimum, please

The entire Matt Ward Ultras thing got old a while ago. However, I do agree the Ultramarines could use a more interesting character; just because they're poster boys doesn't mean they have to be boring.

One thing I was thinking of: Take the entire "we're the best" and make it their hat. They are one of the strongest and most flexible marine forces, and they're not afraid to show it. Have them constantly snark the superiority of the Ultramar system over the rest of the Imperium, or snicker at the stupidity of lesser chapters ("Heh, wolf puns."). Make it clear that, while Guilliman made honest efforts to reach out to the rest of the legions, in his absence the Ultramarines have become an insular chapter that looks down on the deteriorating conditions of the rest of the Imperium. An Ultramarine fights with practiced precision following the Codex Astartes and looks down on those who improvise in crazy ways instead of taking the most obviously efficient option. This way, you get to keep their status as poster boys who adhere strongly to the codex, while also making them rather distinctive.

And the worst part is, they're usually right.

Of course, at this point, we might as well have a totally new chapter, but I thought it'd be an interesting take. Maybe for a DIY chapter.

Not every Space Marine chapter has to have a unique flavor, the UM are meant to be the representation of your standard chapter save the whole Ultramar thing. They're more or less made to be standard and un-unique. Undoing a lot of the bad fluff Ward put in would help their image though. Having all Space Marines secretly want to be Ultramarines is one of the worst and nonsensical pieces of fluff in 40k history. Oh yeah, I sure bet the Space Wolves, Salamanders, and Imperial Fists are totally ashamed of their lineage.

I think Relic did a fantastic job of shaking the UM's up a bit. On one hand, new recruits practically worship the Codex and its 'marysueness', and the older, wiser, marines, simply respect it like a well used, but rarely needed handbook.

Like the Codex Astartes, UM's are what you make of them.

1068SCP wrote:
The entire Matt Ward Ultras thing got old a while ago. However, I do agree the Ultramarines could use a more interesting character; just because they're poster boys doesn't mean they have to be boring.

The downside is that as the 'generic template' they do have to be. If they start throwing in actual Ultramarines specific special units and rules, and book is no longer a template generic Space Marine list. Which would end up with another space marine codex out there.

Also the fact that they're meant to be the exemplars of codex adherence pretty much means there's no wiggle room for esoteric units and rules. They're meant to be the boring, standard Marines.

That said, I find their specific models rather nice, in particular the Honour Guard and Calgars pimpmobile, and the few greco-roman conversion bits floating around. It's possible to make them very visually unique.

 DemetriDominov wrote:


Like the Codex Astartes, UM's are what you make of them.

That's their problem, imo. There is nothing really unique about them other than the fact that they're superior to the rest of the Imperium and they're the "ideal" codex chapter that all others look to as an example.

I'd like to see the Ultramarines suffer more defeats. And I don't mean "close losses" where they "gave as good as they got", or Pyrrhic victories, ala the Tyrannic Wars. I might straight up, "we learned nothing except what losing feels like", crushing defeats.

Defeats on the level of what Helbrecht and the BT's suffered at the hands of the Necrons. The UM desperately need that, in order to be interesting.

Introduce a 'darker' side to them - such as a more authoritarian streak in controlling their homeworld; people who ask questions or don't obey the Ultramarines are shot in plain sight to act as a deterrent.

I think it would add character...

Iranna.

Ultramarines aren't boring, their exactly what their meant to be, standard Space marines devoid of extreme personality or traits.
Changing them or trying to give them a darker side would give the impression all Space marines are emotionally driven warriors, instead of being the steadfast defenders.

 Iranna wrote:
Introduce a 'darker' side to them - such as a more authoritarian streak in controlling their homeworld; people who ask questions or don't obey the Ultramarines are shot in plain sight to act as a deterrent.

I'm quite sure oppression is how Ultramar actually works. Chapter Master Calgar makes sure everyone is happy - or else. This is after all the Grimdark future, not shiny happy faeries and rainbows land. The Spartans in 300 made big speeches about freedom and democracy too, but in reality only the Spartan warrior class had any of that. The women, lower classes and slaves were no better off than in any other Greek city-state of that era.

Added to that, the Ultramarines are surely susceptible to arrogance and pride as the inheritors of Guilliman's legacy. This will bite them in the toes every once in a while, such as that Battle of Macragge mentioned earlier. A polar fortress built and stocked to withstand siege for months running out of ammunition in the time it takes for Calgar to win the space battle? Either someone's screwed up big time by skimping on ammo dumps, or the fortress was never more than propaganda to begin with. I'm leaning toward propaganda seeing as the Master of the Forge wasn't executed for failing his duties.

I don't think they are boring I just think they aren't as exciting as Space Vampires, Werewolf Vikings or Albino Ninjas

Edit: Spellinz

I actualy like the Utlramarines as they are. Other chapters might act like they are special snowflakes.
The Ultramarines on the other hand are honorable, reliable, efficient and unlike other chapters, quite willing to cooperate with the imperial authorites.
No mutations, no stupid dark secrets, no almost maniacal need to show how independent they are.
They are what every spacemarine chapter should be.

They aren't flashy or dark or disturbed. There's nothing wrong with that and it doesn't make them boring nor does it imply happy-fairy land either. With the Ultramarines you get what you see, the ability to play any type of marine army out there. You aren't as good in any one area as the specialized chapters, but you have a range that is impressive.

They have flaws: Pride being the big one.
They have flavor: Greco-roman.

I like the fact that they don't have special rules. In previous editions, blood angels needed to check every round or move forward towards the enemy. Dark angels might stubbornly refuse to move. Ultramarines just obeyed orders and did what they needed to do. The lack of powerful special rules comes with a lack of drawbacks. We my be jack of all trades, master of none, but we can do everything.

Just a basic take-all-comers, flexible force. Nothing special. But enough to get the job done; enough to save the galaxy.

I seriously don't understand this.

What would the OP need to make the UM interesting? Surely you aren't suggesting some Space Vampire, Space Were-Wolf kinda thing?

Don't get me wrong, the fluff behind those chapters can be interesting, but the Ultramarines fill an important roll in the 40k universe. They are the ROCK on which the hope of humanity rests like it or not. Their gene-seed is among the purest exhibiting no flaws and they maintain a region of the Empire that is the least grim-dark, where there at least exists a little hope for mankind. Or, perhaps this is the entire problem? Too much hope? Not enough angst?

The Ultramarines are keenly aware of this fact. They know they are the last real bulwark against chaos (at least until a writer changes everything). That the other Chapters fight valiantly there is no doubt, but it is the "Empire" of the Ultramarines that remains a light to the future and not a disintergrating vestige of times past.

This viewpoint can breed what many view as the Ultramarines flaw if it can be called that. It's really only exhibited by one or two characters in the fluff, but it's enough to turn so many against the boys in blue. There does exist a sheer pomposity or arrogance in the belief in the purity of the Ultramarine way of doing things. A dogmatic adherence to the past. They think this way, because it has worked for nearly 10 thousand years! There is a justified reticence in disturbing the status quo for fear of their own destruction.

It is my personal belief that the Ultramarines are one of the very, very few Chapters that still have the conflict within themselves that they are the protectors of mankind, and not simply their overlords by right.

It is this conflict that makes the Ultramarines interesting... at least to me.

 Iranna wrote:
Introduce a 'darker' side to them - such as a more authoritarian streak in controlling their homeworld; people who ask questions or don't obey the Ultramarines are shot in plain sight to act as a deterrent.

I think it would add character...

The issue here is... That's the rest of the Imperium.

Ultramarines come across as boring as they are written as perfect and therein lies the problem.

Blood Angels and Crimson Fists - tragic heroes, (Blood Angels bordering on being noble demons)
Space Wolves - beast-like country-cousins brawler vikings
Imperial Fists - the siege experts
Raven Guard - army of Batman clones
White Scars - mongol cowboys
Salamanders - pyromaniacs
Dark Angels - Traitor hunters
Grey Knights - Demon hunters

Leaving Ultramarines as middle of the spectrum. Five of these chapters share the same Codex with the Ultramarines. Effectively, each special HQ choice reduces each of their brethren to a 'Chapter of Hats.'

Perhaps all the Astartes Codex chapters are just BORING one-trick-ponies?

All the other chapters I've listed fit into classical archetypes - there really isn't room to portray the Ultras as a fascist police army since the IOM in its' entirety is already filling the part. If anything, the Ultramarines are just the poster-boys - the inspiring examples promoted by any decent, self-respecting totalitarian regime.

They are the role-models, propaganda puppets - call them what you like - that's their stick. I feel that direct comparison with their brethren actually reduces their status - they do seem bland and vanilla next to vikings, vampires etc...

Space Marine last year gave a great example of a simple yet effective idea - illustrating the struggle of the Ultramarines to adhere to their rigid discipline and perhaps the expectations that partner them. The PERSONAL struggle is always more accessible to an audience than watching Supermen who never stuff-up breeze through moral dilemmas and endless hordes of enemies on auto-pilot.

If the 6th edition C:SM is due for any fluff alterations it really needs to highlight the reality of the Imperium losing its' grip on the galaxy. The golden age ended long ago. It's bordering ridiculous to have a civilization crumbling from the inside and at its borders, yet the equivalent of Special Forces always manages to pull of a win. It's illogical.

I strongly believe the best way for Space Marines to be portrayed is the tragic hero. Not every time, but they are SIGNIFICANTLY smaller than the Imperial Guard. Every casualty is a far greater loss in comparison. Maybe some special character rules centering on squad casualties (similar to Lemartes in Blood ANgels , tho LESS extreme) would flavour and intensify the 'narrative' that GW is trying to promote. Some character flaws, some cracks in the marble would better reflect the decaying existence of the IOM.

To make Ultramarines (and Space Marines in their entirety) less boring I'd avoid the one-dimensional character types and embrace some (limited) variety and internal conflict.

Stop letting Graham McNeill write them as idiots, lol.


The Codex: Astartes was originally supposed to be why the Ultramarines were "The Greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" (Back Cover, Codex: Ultramarines, 1993). McNeill turned them into bumbling, rule-bound idiots, and the Codex Astartes into some idiotic "If A, Then B" instruction manual for warfare.

Make them the sort of strategic and tactical warlords they are supposed to be. Don't tell people that the Ultramarines are the best, tell people why.


But, ultimately, make Codex: Space Marines competitive. 40K players aren't the brightest, or most imaginative bunch. They look at the army lists, recognize that Codex: Space Wolves and Codex: Blood Angels are far more powerful than Codex: Space Marines. From there, their brains connect that the Space Wolves and Blood Angels must be better in-universe too.

C:SM is boring and sucks. Codex: Space Marines is actually just Codex: Ultramarines with a simpler name so new players don't get confused about what codex to buy to play "regular" Space Marines. If Codex: Ultramarines is bland and underpowered, players will assume the same of the Ultramarines themselves.

Take away their God Mode.

Visitor13 wrote:
Take away their God Mode.

Did you see the new chaos codex? Every dead space marine in images was a blue ultramarine, look for yourself.

As for flavor I disagree, they have the greco-roman flavor that represents the entire astartes.

Making them Imperial Guard?

They're fine the way they are. They're the "normal" marines. You need someone normal to highlight how weird the other chapters like Space Wolves, Blood Angels and others are.

 Iranna wrote:
Introduce a 'darker' side to them - such as a more authoritarian streak in controlling their homeworld; people who ask questions or don't obey the Ultramarines are shot in plain sight to act as a deterrent.

I think it would add character...

Iranna.

So the exact opposite of what Ultramar is? Okay.

Back on topic, I think the Ultramarines are fine as is. Just because the're not uber special snowflakes like a lot of other SM chapters doesn't mean they're boring.

That's not "the exact opposite" of anything in the Imperium, never mind anything Marine-related. It's just a more extreme version of what is normal.

Making the Smurfs "darker" or "more unique" really wouldn't work imo, they're meant to be the poster child for the Space Marines and the strictiest followers of the Codex Astartes.

The only real changes I can see that would fit them would be to tone down just how wondrous they are and their mythical status is mere propaganda. Emphasize that after the Tyrannic War and Honsou's invasion they're actually in pretty bad shape which is being hidden from the greater Imperium, where they're still revered.

Moreover, show these new difficulties beginning g to effect their realm. For instance, in the destruction left by Behemoth, food riots break out in Ultramar which the Ultramarines brutally put down, breaking the historic image of Ultramar as more progressive and liberal then the greater Imperium. The Sons of Guilliman now face the dilemma of occupiers and this is making many of them question their role.

Regular Ultramarines bore me.
But if you go check out something called The Dornian Heresy (which is an 'alternate history' for 40k where Horus resisted temptation) I really like the Ultramarines depicted there.

Dornian Heresy Ultramarines are awesome, and sadly very difficult to convert.

 Harriticus wrote:
The only real changes I can see that would fit them would be to tone down just how wondrous they are and their mythical status is mere propaganda. Emphasize that after the Tyrannic War and Honsou's invasion they're actually in pretty bad shape which is being hidden from the greater Imperium, where they're still revered.

I actually like this change. It's a nice subversion of the legendary Space Marine concept in general.

You could put an emphasis on the growing schism between Calgar's calm, disciplined command and Cassius's intense hatred of all xenos. Make the Tyrannic War bring the Ultramarines to the edge of breaking into two separate forces, which, given their state of rebuilding, could break the chapter and lead to a vulnerable Ultramar. Put Calgar in an impossible place, potentially battling his beloved mentor, who is slipping into an obsessive madness. Calgar's never faced an enemy within his chapter, so this could go a long way to humanize the Ultramarines.

Zappit wrote:
You could put an emphasis on the growing schism between Calgar's calm, disciplined command and Cassius's intense hatred of all xenos. Make the Tyrannic War bring the Ultramarines to the edge of breaking into two separate forces, which, given their state of rebuilding, could break the chapter and lead to a vulnerable Ultramar. Put Calgar in an impossible place, potentially battling his beloved mentor, who is slipping into an obsessive madness. Calgar's never faced an enemy within his chapter, so this could go a long way to humanize the Ultramarines.

An internal schism that rocked the chapter like it did for the Iron Hands, which lead to the founding of the Sons of Medusa? I like that

Keep in mind that when I started this topic, I really wasnt looking for any major overhaul or OTT attributes to be assigned to the Ultramarines. I was only thinking about minor tweaks that would still maintain most of what we know about the Chapter, but introducing a small interesting bit of character to make them more appealing. But Im surprised at the responses so far, to leave the Ultramarines be. I was expecting more Ultra-hate coming in

I think at the end of the day (and this could be WAY off the mark, it's just from my experience and those I've talked to), fluff wise, there's not a huge 'problem' persay with Ultramarine fluff, it's just rather boring.

I think you could find some traction in their more Romanesque aspects. They do have a general Hellenic flavor, but the roman empire theme (particularly the republic or early empire period) fits pretty well in the greater imperium context. The Romans of this period revered the militant aspects of their culture, and they were very good at making war for many of the same reasons that the ultramarines do - they had an excellent and sometimes very rigid method of battle in an era where this was something of a novelty, and they were fantastic logisticians. They were also honor obsessed and almost weirdly arrogant and religious/superstitious, which practically screams imperium.

Macragge is an empire within an empire in a sense, and like the Romans you could portray them as dismissive of other parts of their own empire and the imperium at large, to the extent that they are oppressive. After the Marius reforms, the legions were also increasingly at odds with the will of the government due to their military power and their status as a wholly separate, professional force ( where othe armies were citizen conscripts). They frequently nominated new emperors from their generals and left the empire teetering on the brink of civil war. If you create your own force with a charismatic general that threatens the stability of macragge with his ambitions, I think you've got something. It seems very un-ultramarine on the face of it, but he would still be an ultramarine and therefore assured of his own superiority against the wretched zenos and of his ability to lead the empire into a new era of glory. His victories would give him glory in the eyes of the masses and they may call for change. Calgar is beloved, but in the face of the ultramarines troubles and recent decimation, your captain could be seen as a savior. Perhaps he has connections with the macragge upper class and they are moving to replace calgar to get a measure of freedom.

I think you are hamstrung by the codex a bit, but there is a certain nobility in the ultramarines that bears itself. Your boys don't have to be faceless soldiers, they can be an ambitious and dangerous element that is nonetheless needed to protect Ultramar from it's many barbaric external threats. They may even be recently raised to replace the losses of the tyrannic wars, and therefore somewhat free of the stultifying indoctrination of the status quo. They would believe that their destiny is to take guillimans empire and spread it through the imperium. They would still be bound by belief in the imperial cult and the god emperor, but they believe they are right. Besides, that never stopped the Romans and it shouldn't stop you either.

They might still look like ultramarines, but with this could give them some character for you, and I think that's the most important part right?