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Seeing the Swarmlord rip Calgar a new face hole would have been an interesting/amusing thing to see.
But that might just be me since the FLGS that I used to go to had an overabundance of people who thought SMurfs could survive anything with nothing more then a flick of their wrist...

But really, they're meant to be the generic, by the books, obey every order chapter.
That's kinda what makes them unique... By not being unique at all.

Strict adherence to the Codex is the UM's flaw. They are following the book as dogma rather than treating it as an inspiration as Guilliman intended. Of course, this is how Dan Abnett is writing Guilliman's intentions in the Heresy books.

I really don't see how their adherence to the CA can be considered a flaw, or even their supposed "arrogance". They have literally like the greatest track record out of all the chapters, and are the chapter that all other codex-adhering chapters strive to be.

BlaxicanX wrote:
I really don't see how their adherence to the CA can be considered a flaw, or even their supposed "arrogance". They have literally like the greatest track record out of all the chapters, and are the chapter that all other codex-adhering chapters strive to be.

This is why they're boring. They have nothing exciting about them other than the idea that they never lose. That's not interesting, it's just lame. Children find perfection interesting, adults do not.

Oh also they're boring because everywhere you look you see an UM. Seriously, throw some other colours into the books, I won't be sick of seeing these ultramarines then.

BlaxicanX wrote:
I really don't see how their adherence to the CA can be considered a flaw, or even their supposed "arrogance". They have literally like the greatest track record out of all the chapters, and are the chapter that all other codex-adhering chapters strive to be.

Not a flaw as in pointy teeth or turning into a dog but as I stated, based on Dan Abnett's and Graham MacNeill's take in the HH novels, Guilliman intentended the Codex to be a springboard not a slavish doctrine. To quote Guilliman from the Age of Darkness collection:

"In war and in peace it will provide an invaluable repository of knowledge, but I do not wish it to be regarded as a substitute for reason and initiative."

So with dogged adherence to the Codex Astartes, they are not following the Primarch's vision and are possibly hampering themselves from achieving more.

But they have the best track-record out of all the marines in the Imperium, and are the marines that all codex-adhering marines wish they were. Their strict adherence to the Codex Astartes has served them very, very well, Guilliman's wishes withstanding.

 buddha wrote:

Visitor13 wrote:
Take away their God Mode.

Did you see the new chaos codex? Every dead space marine in images was a blue ultramarine, look for yourself.

Any actual fluff to the effect that they got their asses well and truly kicked? If not, I'm not convinced. They do seem to lose quite a few men every battle, but that never seems to mean anything in the end. Just yet another generic 'costly victory' (only none of the killed are actually anyone noteworthy). Boring.

Some good ideas on fixing them in this thread.

The Ultras before the heresy were massive in number, so their ability to weather defeat or be victorious can be partially attributed to being able to take more casualties than smaller legions.

After the heresy, they spawned many, many successor chapters and still maintain a high recruitment rate so there won't be stories of 'high casualties' other than the massive defeats such as losing the first company.

What makes the Ultras unique is their lack of flaws other than pride. Not everyone needs to be the underdog or hide obvious flaws.

BlaxicanX wrote:
But they have the best track-record out of all the marines in the Imperium, and are the marines that all codex-adhering marines wish they were. Their strict adherence to the Codex Astartes has served them very, very well, Guilliman's wishes withstanding.

I love the Ultramarines. My Space Marine army is UMs. Some of my best friends are UMs ....but they sentence heroes to death for beating enemies with out of the box thinking rather than following a flowchart penned 10 000 years earlier. In my book, that is flawed thinking! I'm in the forces and we have a saying "Its a skill, not a drill". Slavish following of doctrine can and will bite you in the backside given time.

alphaecho wrote:
I'm in the forces and we have a saying "Its a skill, not a drill". Slavish following of doctrine can and will bite you in the backside given time.

Or as a certain martial arts teacher used to say - if you didn't do the move as he showed it but it worked it wasn't wrong, just a different way of doing it.

I actually like the ultramarines. They are an analogue to Superman in the DC universe.

alphaecho wrote:
Strict adherence to the Codex is the UM's flaw. They are following the book as dogma rather than treating it as an inspiration as Guilliman intended. Of course, this is how Dan Abnett is writing Guilliman's intentions in the Heresy books.

This is actually Graham McNeill's fault. The Ultramarines' strict adherence to the Codex was never a flaw in the old days. What it meant was that they lived up to its tenets, including adherence to its recruitment, training, marking, etc doctrines. The combat strategy and tactics side of the Codex was always about being masters of the battlespace, not simply memorizing a list of problems and solutions.

That came later, mostly because of McNeill's awful novels. What Abnett is writing is actually closer to what was originally described back in Codex: Ultramarines in 1993.


Most of the belief that the Ultramarines are "boring" and "generic" came from the fact that Codex: Ultramarines (which was later renamed Codex: Space Marines for simplicity's sake) was the army list for a "normal" Space Marine army and lacked any exciting or unique troops or vehicles. The fact that other Space Marine armies like Space Wolves and Blood Angels were consistently a bit overpowered by comparison didn't help either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 snooggums wrote:
The Ultras before the heresy were massive in number, so their ability to weather defeat or be victorious can be partially attributed to being able to take more casualties than smaller legions.

That's not really true. While that may have helped them survive Calth (well, at least the modern version of Calth), the Ultramarines were always described as having not only had the numbers and logistics to replace their losses, but they also were noted for being more efficient in their campaigns too. Losing less Marines, plus being able to add more Marines faster, was why they ballooned up to be so much larger than any other legion.

I don't think the Ultramarines are boring. Read the Horus Heresy book Know No Fear, and you'll have a totally new perspective on the ol' Smurfs.

 Darth Bob wrote:
I don't think the Ultramarines are boring. Read the Horus Heresy book Know No Fear, and you'll have a totally new perspective on the ol' Smurfs.

I agree to an extent. Graham McNeil has made them much more falliable than what's portrayed in the codex. Honestly I found the whole 'spiritual liege' thing very silly. Along with the idea that it's a bad thing that certain chapters could 'never be Ultramarines'.

Unfortunately it seems that without the black library the UMs seem to suffer from a liberal dose of mary sue, especially with regards to Tigurius.

BlaxicanX wrote:
I really don't see how their adherence to the CA can be considered a flaw, or even their supposed "arrogance". They have literally like the greatest track record out of all the chapters, and are the chapter that all other codex-adhering chapters strive to be.

Tends to happen when the majority of your chapter survives the Horus Heresy largely unscathed, along with being the furthest away from the Eye of Terror, and only recently having had to deal with Behemoth. Attributing everything to pure martial skill is a little much when they had numbers and luck.

BlaxicanX wrote:
are the marines that all codex-adhering marines wish they were.

Ah, the joke that Matt Ward said (rather than wrote in the Codex) is being used again. How incredibly dull.

Tends to happen when the majority of your chapter survives the Horus Heresy largely unscathed

They did lose something like two fifths of their Chapter at Calth. Saying that they were largely unscathed seems a bit unfair. It was their logistics and Guillimans strategic prowess (the Lion is famed for his tactical ability, but I don't think his strategic skills are mentioned as being more exceptional than the rest of the Primarchs, for instance) that enabled them to recover so quickly.

Toning down Calgar would be a start. Right now he reads like somebody's fan fiction (Ward's):

He is a super fighter, that can make cunning tactical and strategic decisions just by glancing at a map display, who is also a capable administrator of more territory than most Chapters have. He is also well loved and though anyone else in his position might start feeling prideful and arrogant, oh no, he is anything but that and is humble.

Calgar is shown as having no real flaws worth mentioning, and even the slight inkling that perhaps he could be getting arrogant is quashed. A character that is flawless in every area and who suffers no doubts, no fears, no weaknesses is boring. There is no room for depth or growth since he is already shown to be perfect. There is never any sense of struggle since the reader knows Calgar will do the right thing.

For there to be narrative tension in a story, there has to be the option for a character to fail, whether that be physically, mentally, or ideologically/spiritually. There is no sense of that possibility at all with Calgar, which is what makes him a bad character in any other role except wish fulfillment fantasy of being a perfect superhuman.

Throw another Tyranid Fleet in their face.

I'm surprised no one mentioned the Tyranids wiping out the Ultramarines First Company of venerable terminators and wiping out the Jewel of Ultramar (forgot the planets name). The decimation the chapter recieved definately gives them a flair of vulnerability, which I like, and even though they regained some of their number back, all it takes is another massive Tyranid Fleet or even another Tau Expansion/Ork WAAAAAGGGHH to throw them unwillingly into the spot light.

I like the Ultramarines (even though I detest Space Marines all together) because they're so uniform. No Dark Secrets, no heretical ceremonies, no dim-bulb characterization. Straight up loyalist Space Marines who fight aliens and Chaos alike.

So just throw something imposing at their stock of large numbers and Poof! Less boring!

Ultramarines don't need to be less boring. They're an army of genetically augmented warriors in super-advanced power armor, wielding machine guns that use rocket propelled grenades as their basic ammunition. They sure as hell aren't boring. But, they need to be less Sue-ish. If I wrote the Ultramarines, I'd put emphasis on the fact that no matter how badass they are, ultimately they're a bunch of hyper-indoctrinated zealous fighting for a doomed empire. Every victory is only putting off the inevitable. The Imperium is going to fall, and they will certainly die with it.

I really think that playing up the Roman flavor would make them a lot more likeable. Make Ultramar like the late Republic. You could have the Ultramarines serving as ultimate rulers while the people of the planets elect senators and minor offices. Introduce a patrician/plebe class divide, with the "patricians" being favored by the marines, giving them more wealth and status to train even more of their young men into astartes inductees, this gaining MORE wealth and prestige. Meanwhile plebe families dream of having a son accepted, with all the fame that comes with it. I would also write that a good handful of successor chapters also live in and recruit from the Ultramar system, operating independently but with Calgar as supreme commander in times when multiple chapter operations are necessary.


I'm fine with the UMs having the best track record. SOMEONE has to be the best, why not them? It makes sense. They were of course by far the most numerous, and they are roman-themed. Rome in real life was insanely successful. Make them succesful for the same reasons as Rome- lots of men, lots of resources, a refusal to surrender, and an extraordinary, arrogant stubborn-ness.

Rome, like the Ultras, was really big into honor and tradition and the teachings of its ancestors. But when honor or tradition got in the way of victory, they would break with it, beat the enemy, and then rewrite history to fit the new story. Make the Ultras like this. That's a cool controversy, subsequent chapter masters bending the rules to suit their own needs, performing dishonorable actions to achieve victory. Add some "traditionalist" marines that insist on going back to what they see as Guilliman's original teachings.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Ah, the joke that Matt Ward said (rather than wrote in the Codex) is being used again.

You consider an entire codex to be "a joke"? I envy your ability to close your eyes in the face of lame fluff.

BlaxicanX wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Ah, the joke that Matt Ward said (rather than wrote in the Codex) is being used again.

You consider an entire codex to be "a joke"? I envy your ability to close your eyes in the face of lame fluff.

The entire Codex says that all non-deviant Chapters want to be Ultramarines? Must have missed that part.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Ah, the joke that Matt Ward said (rather than wrote in the Codex) is being used again.

You consider an entire codex to be "a joke"? I envy your ability to close your eyes in the face of lame fluff.

The entire Codex says that all non-deviant Chapters want to be Ultramarines? Must have missed that part.

Page 24...

Yes, it was a controversial and stupid part of the codex, that was argued about rather harshly for months, if not a year, after the codex was released, and is still despised to this day.

Technically, what that passage says is that the Successors of the Ultramarines venerate Guilliman (as he is their genetic founder), and that the non-Ultramarines followers of the Codex merely aspire to that standard set forth in the Codex.

It never says that they wish they were Ultramarines.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Technically, what that passage says is that the Successors of the Ultramarines venerate Guilliman (as he is their genetic founder), and that the non-Ultramarines followers of the Codex merely aspire to that standard set forth in the Codex.

It never says that they wish they were Ultramarines.

"These Chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman." - wouldn't be included if it didn't infer that White Scars, Imperial Fists, and Raven Guard members would be Ultras except for the lack of Ultramarine gene-seed.

The whole page talks about how they would be Ultramarines if they could. It is blindingly clear that page 24 (the rest of the codex not so blatant) is about how Ultras are perfect, the other Legions were divergent. No, the exact words aren't strung together, but the context and inference is quite clear.

By having Calgar stuff a meltabomb in Mat Ward's mouth and follow it up with the entire chapter kidnapping and violating all of the female Dark Eldar. Or, maybe they could just kill all of pony-kind. Either makes them awesome.

I've come full circle with the Ultras and now really like them. I think books [e.g. Know No Fear] have really helped me to get them. The Greco-Roman theme is great [and should be developed more]. Plus the fact that they humiliated the Word Bearers [my least favourite Chaos legion - bunch of sermonising pussies] and then bitch slapped them at Calth despite being ambushed.

 MrScience wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:
I don't think the Ultramarines are boring. Read the Horus Heresy book Know No Fear, and you'll have a totally new perspective on the ol' Smurfs.

I agree to an extent. Graham McNeil has made them much more falliable than what's portrayed in the codex. Honestly I found the whole 'spiritual liege' thing very silly. Along with the idea that it's a bad thing that certain chapters could 'never be Ultramarines'.

Unfortunately it seems that without the black library the UMs seem to suffer from a liberal dose of mary sue, especially with regards to Tigurius.

Graham McNeill didn't write Know No Fear, for the record, Dan Abnett did.

If you want more interesting Ultramarines, paint them black, give them spikey bits, top-knots, the mad-max version of their current gear, and give calgar a giant claw and a bastard sword that has faces built into the blade... oh... wait... that would be chaos!

I'm going to have to chime in once again that emphasizing their Roman-ness more heavily would make them much more interesting. The parallels with Rome are obvious (logistical and strategic superiority, regimented fighting doctrines, militaristic and expansionist, large empire). But we miss out on all the many things that really made Rome characterful. We don't hear about the brutally rigid discipline that must permeate every facet of Ultramar, and especially the training and conduct of the Ultramarines. We don't hear about the machinations that must go on within the society of Ultramar, and indeed within the Chapter itself.

I really liked two ideas above, and they're closely related - first that there is a constant churn of innovation versus dogma, where traditionalists and more innovative elements are in a subtle but constant power struggle. The higher ranking Ultras would vie for power and push their own interpretations of Guilliman's weighty legacy and the role of the Codex Astartes. Think Rome at the very end of the Republic, where traditional ways were on the verge of giving way to sweeping authoritarian changes and the power of individual egos, all wrapped up in the guise of saving the Republic. I like the idea of Cassius as strict-traditionalist turned fiery reformer, and his once-pupil, Calgar, as a pragmatic traditionalist, caught in the middle between the two opposing factions within the Ultramarines.

Second there's the idea of the rank-and-file Ultras possessing iron discipline and loyalty, but loyalty to whom? They would revere Guilliman and the Codex, but above all else they follow orders from their Captain, as they would train and deploy almost universally as Companies. Thus you open the door for charismatic Captains, backed by their obedient companies and personally loyal non-coms, wielding their power to gain influence within the chapter and secure their own further advancement. Not every captain would be this way, but I could see the more famous captains of the battle companies and maybe the first company captain occasionally clashing. Just like the Roman legions, the troops were most loyal to the commanders they fought under, and while they were loyal to Rome as well, their commanders could easily convince them that a fellow Roman leader was a threat to Rome itself.

Take Cato Sicarius as a stern and well-respected traditionalist leading the highly honored 2nd company, throwing his weight around to quash the input of a more radical captain like Uriel Ventris, trying to put a halt to the organization of tyrannic war veteran units, leading the other traditionalist captains to force Calgar's hand over the direction of the chapter, etc. You wouldn't necessarily have outright fighting, more like attempting to boost their own profile while tarnishing their adversaries within the chapter through byzantine matters of chapter code and law. Past examples of quiet coups d'etat where groups of captains deposed aging or unliked chapter masters, or opposing captains were on the verge of war over the order of succession after a chapter master's death, would give the present situation more of a threatening air. Calgar himself would be a more likeable character - for all his exceptional qualities, he cannot keep complete control over the arrogant and sometimes selfish officers of his own chapter and must constantly prove himself or compromise to maintain their loyalty.

The chapter can still be what they are, the paragons of the adeptus astartes, while having their own minor and perfectly human fissures beneath their facade.