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 Galdos wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

thefarseerofnorthryde wrote:
Re-write their fluff to something more like what you read in Graham Mcneill's books

Graham McNeill was the best thing that ever happened to the Ultramarines.

Fixed that for you


I understand that a lot of older UM fans dont like his books but that doesnt change the fact that a lot of people love them and find that it was his books that saved the UM in the eyes of a lot of people.

Im in the camp of enjoying the books obviously

Well, it's okay to like awful books, lol.

But the bottom line is. McNeill's books are very, very poorly written, and McNeill obviously understands nothing of warfare and warfighting. All of the plots are these forced affairs where the protagonist is punished for doing exactly what has been praised in military leadership for centuries, lol. It's like McNeill decided that the Codex was this book that taught you to do the exact opposite of what you should do as a field commander, in any given situation, and that somehow that was a good way of portraying what is supposed to be the greatest military text ever compiled.

The issue is portraying the 'greatest military text ever compiled' as always correct. If you look at the works we consider 'great military texts' these days (The Art of War, The Military Institutions of the Romans, On War, the like), they're all very vague. They don't mention specific weapons, specific situations, specific anything, which is why they remain relevant today. Unfortunately that also means that they're open to interpretation; The Art of War in the hands of an imbecile is about as useful as a cookbook. Most sources portray the Codex Astartes as far more specific than any modern military text, referencing specific weapons, specific formations, specific tactics, et cetera; it should be inherently flawed if it's specific enough to tell people exactly what to do with what weapon when. The Ultramarines are supposed to stick to the letter of what the Codex tells them to do; it might be right in some cases, it might be right in many cases, but at the end of the day it can't be right in all cases.

Plus this is 40k, the tone of the entire setting doesn't support anything being flawless in any way.

(Also, Veteran Sergeant, would you mind not tacking 'lol' and smiley Orks onto blunt negative statements? Trying to bounce the mood of a sentence back and forth that fast doesn't really work well...)

The problem isnt realy with the ultramarines its with the other chapters because most of the time they get everything the codex marines get plus something extra, their flaws arn't realy flaws there advantages, even thought they're missing half the implants a marine should have they can still do every thing an ultramarine can. does that scream special snowflake to anyone else?

Plus why do people keep wanting to change the ultras? if you dont like playing as one of the last chapters fighting to protect humanity, defending the last bastion of the emperors vision.
Then go play one of the other chapters that fight becuase they hate every one, thats what they're ther for.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Galdos wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

thefarseerofnorthryde wrote:
Re-write their fluff to something more like what you read in Graham Mcneill's books

Graham McNeill was the best thing that ever happened to the Ultramarines.

Fixed that for you


I understand that a lot of older UM fans dont like his books but that doesnt change the fact that a lot of people love them and find that it was his books that saved the UM in the eyes of a lot of people.

Im in the camp of enjoying the books obviously

Well, it's okay to like awful books, lol.

But the bottom line is. McNeill's books are very, very poorly written, and McNeill obviously understands nothing of warfare and warfighting. All of the plots are these forced affairs where the protagonist is punished for doing exactly what has been praised in military leadership for centuries, lol. It's like McNeill decided that the Codex was this book that taught you to do the exact opposite of what you should do as a field commander, in any given situation, and that somehow that was a good way of portraying what is supposed to be the greatest military text ever compiled.

The issue is we don't even know what the Codex actually contains, we know that it has the collected knowledge of the greatest military events or tactics etc. But in what context?

Plus why do people keep wanting to change the ultras? if you dont like playing as one of the last chapters fighting to protect humanity, defending the last bastion of the emperors vision.

Are you implying every other chapter isn't fighting for the Imperium?

That's not a very nice thing to say about chapters like the Lamenters.

People take issue with the Ultramarines being special snowflakes, as you call it, because Roboute Guilliman is apparently OUR SPIRITUAL LIEGE

Crazyterran wrote:
They should make the Chaos Marines even want to secretly be Ultramarines.

That's all they are missing at this point, right?

(I like the Ultramarines. They are fine as they are. Maybe make them a little less of codex-thumpers, though)

"Eldar cannot be Ultramarines, for they do not share the gene-seed of Guilliman, but they revere his teachings and aspire to his awesomeness." = Matt Ward, 6th edition Eldar codex.

Eldrad was swallowed up by Slaanesh because he realised he could never be an Ultramarine.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The issue is portraying the 'greatest military text ever compiled' as always correct. If you look at the works we consider 'great military texts' these days (The Art of War, The Military Institutions of the Romans, On War, the like), they're all very vague. They don't mention specific weapons, specific situations, specific anything, which is why they remain relevant today. Unfortunately that also means that they're open to interpretation; The Art of War in the hands of an imbecile is about as useful as a cookbook. Most sources portray the Codex Astartes as far more specific than any modern military text, referencing specific weapons, specific formations, specific tactics, et cetera; it should be inherently flawed if it's specific enough to tell people exactly what to do with what weapon when. The Ultramarines are supposed to stick to the letter of what the Codex tells them to do; it might be right in some cases, it might be right in many cases, but at the end of the day it can't be right in all cases.

Plus this is 40k, the tone of the entire setting doesn't support anything being flawless in any way.

(Also, Veteran Sergeant, would you mind not tacking 'lol' and smiley Orks onto blunt negative statements? Trying to bounce the mood of a sentence back and forth that fast doesn't really work well...)

The Art of War is fething awful.

Im kind of baffled by how much credit it gets for being amazing when its just a book of litterally common sense.

The book is an entire book of "if the enemy out numbers you in every way, dont do a frontal assault." If anyone actually needed this book to help them become a good leader, they have no business being a leader in the first place.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

But the bottom line is. McNeill's books are very, very poorly written, and McNeill obviously understands nothing of warfare and warfighting....

I get where you are coming from. Im not saying his books are amazing. I remember finding the first two books were so predicatable is was maddening. (10 bucks says he is an Inquisitor / no the IF Cpt. cant die yet, its too early, he will die in a few scenes) But at the time there wernt many SM novels to began with and the book wasnt horrible, is still told a nice basic story that fit the universe without having annoying characters.


Also the point about understanding military warfare is a problem in any book by any of the Black Library authors. I remember scratching my head in a Gaunt's Ghost book when the commanders did something that everyone was like "this will turn the tide" yet in reality I know that is asking for trouble. What you have to do is does it make at least somewhat sense (in this situation there was some good logic behind the decision, even if there were better ones) and just give them credit for things. Cut them slack and try not to over think what the proper military response would be. It makes many of these books easier to read and enjoyable.


Oh I dont actually care if you like them but I would like it if you understood that his books actually provided a save gracing for the UMs for a lot of people and people do enjoy his stories. His most recent one did a VERY good job at making the UM appear good but not "the Emperor's only regret is he wasnt an Ultramarine" amazing the codex makes them and their SCs out to be. Their SCs are competant but they arnt the greatest beings in existance, people like the Chapter Master makes mistakes, the Librarian collapses from over use of his powers, the scout is out scouted by a few Raven Guard marines. It humbles the UMs but gives them personality

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Well, it's okay to like awful books, lol.

But the bottom line is. McNeill's books are very, very poorly written, and McNeill obviously understands nothing of warfare and warfighting. All of the plots are these forced affairs where the protagonist is punished for doing exactly what has been praised in military leadership for centuries, lol. It's like McNeill decided that the Codex was this book that taught you to do the exact opposite of what you should do as a field commander, in any given situation, and that somehow that was a good way of portraying what is supposed to be the greatest military text ever compiled.

I think McNeil's books can be decent. Nightbringer is okay once you get past the over-the-top gore, and I liked the character interactions of Warriors of Ultramar. Dead Sky, Black Sun was hilarious, even if it was horrible in every other way (Seriously, that book is so bad it ends up getting funny). The fourth book was an okay ghost story. Unfortunately, the third and fourth aren't actually Ultramarines books, and the second is more "Ultramarines are totally uncool, join the Deathwatch and be an awesome marine!"

By silencing everyone who thinks they are boring.

1068SCP wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Well, it's okay to like awful books, lol.

But the bottom line is. McNeill's books are very, very poorly written, and McNeill obviously understands nothing of warfare and warfighting. All of the plots are these forced affairs where the protagonist is punished for doing exactly what has been praised in military leadership for centuries, lol. It's like McNeill decided that the Codex was this book that taught you to do the exact opposite of what you should do as a field commander, in any given situation, and that somehow that was a good way of portraying what is supposed to be the greatest military text ever compiled.

I think McNeil's books can be decent. Nightbringer is okay once you get past the over-the-top gore, and I liked the character interactions of Warriors of Ultramar. Dead Sky, Black Sun was hilarious, even if it was horrible in every other way (Seriously, that book is so bad it ends up getting funny). The fourth book was an okay ghost story. Unfortunately, the third and fourth aren't actually Ultramarines books, and the second is more "Ultramarines are totally uncool, join the Deathwatch and be an awesome marine!"

What was so funny about Black Sun?

Does anyone else have an issue with Warhammer books feeling forcibly grimdark? Though it's not 40k I actually like Guardians of the Forest and the Blackheart Ominbus because while gak gets real, people are dicks, and good people die by the dozens...at least I gave a damn about the characters. I actually suffered some suspense on whether or not people would die or not.

 Shlazaor wrote:
What was so funny about Black Sun?

The incredibly hamfisted attempt at showing insanity in the text. Uriel's attempt to rally the other marines with logic like "We're marines, so we're awesome, so we'll win!" The amazingly graphic description of people being turned into skins, which sounds ridiculous because the very concept is ridiculous. The way the Unfleshed pray to a giant altar of the Empire. The Daemonculaba (McNeill seriously has issues) and the scene where Uriel is born. Honsou giving a Bloodthirster a serious chewing out. Passaneus wangsting about his arm. The lack of any Ultramarines in an Ultramarines book.

And of course, there is a DAEMON TRAIN.

It's a book so forcibly Grimdark and absurd that I can't help but laugh at it.

1068SCP wrote:

 Shlazaor wrote:
What was so funny about Black Sun?

The incredibly hamfisted attempt at showing insanity in the text. Uriel's attempt to rally the other marines with logic like "We're marines, so we're awesome, so we'll win!" The amazingly graphic description of people being turned into skins, which sounds ridiculous because the very concept is ridiculous. The way the Unfleshed pray to a giant altar of the Empire. The Daemonculaba (McNeill seriously has issues) and the scene where Uriel is born. Honsou giving a Bloodthirster a serious chewing out. Passaneus wangsting about his arm. The lack of any Ultramarines in an Ultramarines book.

And of course, there is a DAEMON TRAIN.

It's a book so forcibly Grimdark and absurd that I can't help but laugh at it.

Daemon Train? (googled and couldn't find it)

 Shlazaor wrote:

1068SCP wrote:

 Shlazaor wrote:
What was so funny about Black Sun?

The incredibly hamfisted attempt at showing insanity in the text. Uriel's attempt to rally the other marines with logic like "We're marines, so we're awesome, so we'll win!" The amazingly graphic description of people being turned into skins, which sounds ridiculous because the very concept is ridiculous. The way the Unfleshed pray to a giant altar of the Empire. The Daemonculaba (McNeill seriously has issues) and the scene where Uriel is born. Honsou giving a Bloodthirster a serious chewing out. Passaneus wangsting about his arm. The lack of any Ultramarines in an Ultramarines book.

And of course, there is a DAEMON TRAIN.

It's a book so forcibly Grimdark and absurd that I can't help but laugh at it.

Daemon Train? (googled and couldn't find it)

The Omphalus Daemonium (or however the hell you spell it). It was a deamonic steam train that picked up Uriel and Pasanius at the beginning of the book after the ship's Geller Field failed.

 Coolyo294 wrote:

 Shlazaor wrote:

1068SCP wrote:

 Shlazaor wrote:
What was so funny about Black Sun?

The incredibly hamfisted attempt at showing insanity in the text. Uriel's attempt to rally the other marines with logic like "We're marines, so we're awesome, so we'll win!" The amazingly graphic description of people being turned into skins, which sounds ridiculous because the very concept is ridiculous. The way the Unfleshed pray to a giant altar of the Empire. The Daemonculaba (McNeill seriously has issues) and the scene where Uriel is born. Honsou giving a Bloodthirster a serious chewing out. Passaneus wangsting about his arm. The lack of any Ultramarines in an Ultramarines book.

And of course, there is a DAEMON TRAIN.

It's a book so forcibly Grimdark and absurd that I can't help but laugh at it.

Daemon Train? (googled and couldn't find it)

The Omphalus Daemonium (or however the hell you spell it). It was a deamonic steam train that picked up Uriel and Pasanius at the beginning of the book after the ship's Geller Field failed.

Thanks. Honestly all of that sounds fething slowed.

Give them a strong sense of inner-corruption/hypocrisy. Make them more grimdark rather than a rather odd Tau-esque exception to the galaxy around them...

Just make them bisexual like real romans. Arrogant Paedophiles. Bam, they just got interesting.

 Henners91 wrote:
Give them a strong sense of inner-corruption/hypocrisy. Make them more grimdark rather than a rather odd Tau-esque exception to the galaxy around them...

Sure. While we're at it, the Blood Angels actively try to turn on the Black Rage, the Space Wolves are secretly Chaos worshippers, and the Salamanders now roast civilians alive over an open fire. No longer will they be rather odd Tau-esque exceptions to the galaxy around them.

Almarine wrote:
Just make them bisexual like real romans. Arrogant Paedophiles. Bam, they just got interesting.

And that way it'll appeal to children wandering in GW shop and doing pew-pew with their minis. And their parents.

I dunno, I'm an ultramarine fan as is. I like the idea of the 'best' chapter. A chapter that doesn't have any 'dark flaw' or 'hidden past' or wolf fetish, or mutation or whatever. They don't stand out because they are different, they stand out by being the best. The sort of yardstick, if you will. The chapter that all others must measure up to and inevitably be compared to. Everyone else is unique because the Ultramarines are normal.

I also kind of like the idea of them being giant ponces. Like they are always called the best and they make sure everyone knows it. Maybe that's just me being a ponce too but I like that. Super imperialistic, arrogant, poncy, but at the same time being the best and most dedicated. They are the only chapter like that (I think) and I think its good.

Ascetically they could use a bit more roman styled stuff. GW would probably have a tough time breaking away from Gothic stuff with a space marine chapter, but in subtle ways. Maybe just more numerals or giant columns or whatever, but it'd be a welcome break from just adding skulls and eagles to everything.

Almarine wrote:
Just make them bisexual like real romans. Arrogant Paedophiles. Bam, they just got interesting.

Bisexual and pedophilia are completely different things, as one is gender and the other is age. The Romans were just plain old child molesters.