Hello dear loyalists, xenos, heretics and else
I've been re-reading "The first heretic" for a few times and there is a question in my head which the chaos gods ask me the whole time: Was Lorgar really that evil?
Sure, he practically started the heresy but he only wanted to find the truth behind reality and true divinity. What do you think?

At first, not in comparison to some of his more loathsome brothers, like Perturabo or Angron.

But by Aurelian, he is a sinister individual indeed, if still not on the level of the narcissistic sociopath or the frothing berserker.

I think there's evidence in The First Heretic that points to Lorgar being pretty damn ruthless and manipulative. He may have only wanted to discover the truth, but he was more than willing to commit abominable sins in the name of truth seeking.

Like Magnus, Fulgrim, and Horus, I don't think he was doomed to the path of damnation and was a victim of circumstance. He disliked the fact he was a soldier, had a disdain to war, and wanted to create a greater meaning in the Imperium that the Emperor refused.

I don't know if "good" and "evil" are the categories you want to use when discussing any of the primarchs.

 Manchu wrote:
I don't know if "good" and "evil" are the categories you want to use when discussing any of the primarchs.

I heard Leman Russ is good at krumping heads, and Angron is good at chopping them.

Not sure about evil though.

Evil?....not at first but thanks to Kor and Eberus that was soon put right (the first true hertics). As for ruthless I would have to say yes because he wanted to know about the eye of terra and what lay within (divinity) but sent in what's is name and company just in case it was a bad idea to go inside him self.

He was a heretic! Fiery death and damnation for that dark soul.

Lorgar is too stupid to be evil. He wouldn't be held accountable for his own actions in a modern day court of law, he would be declared mentally incompetent.

Lorgar has no thought of his own, he just does what other people tell him to do.

He still aided in the HH, and in some lesser or greater way helped bring about the demise of the emperor.

Just like Fulgrim was sent to feel out other Primarchs loyalties so was Lorgar (can't remember who off the top of my head), he couldn't have been that stupid, though I have to say he did at the start come off at the start as a whinning pussy

(bo ho the nasty Emperor smacked my bottom and distroyed my favourite toy, now I'm going in my room to mope about it for a month, and I'm not talking to anybody!) pussy.

Lorgar was right about the Emperor, he is essentially a God. He makes Lorgars' legion as well as Lorgar kneel through sheer mental force, while communicating through Malcador from half the galaxy away.

To show such power and wrath only cements his opinion that the Emperor is devine, but is unfit to rule because he doesn't accept it.

Obliterating the Holy City also made those wounds raw, and doing in the presence of Guilliman who Lorgar hated IIRC.

The Emperor really knew how to rub it in. I don't think Lorgar is misunderstood, just misplaced. The Emperor should have accepted his Son's belief until such time as he could be persuaded otherwise.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Lorgar is too stupid to be evil. He wouldn't be held accountable for his own actions in a modern day court of law, he would be declared mentally incompetent.

Lorgar has no thought of his own, he just does what other people tell him to do.

Like when he fought Corax to defend his sons, despite Kor Phaeron telling him not to.


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 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
Just like Fulgrim was sent to feel out other Primarchs loyalties so was Lorgar (can't remember who off the top of my head), he couldn't have been that stupid, though I have to say he did at the start come off at the start as a whinning pussy

(bo ho the nasty Emperor smacked my bottom and distroyed my favourite toy, now I'm going in my room to mope about it for a month, and I'm not talking to anybody!) pussy.

The Emperor humiliated him and his entire legion in front of the man Lorgar disliked most (Guilliman), right after destroying one of Lorgar's favorite worlds.

This might be hard for you to realise, but an entire population's worth of people were killed or rendered homeless for something that was no fault of their own, which doesn't seem like much for 40k, but Logar, unlike his brothers, actually held some amount of empathy for the mortals that were his subjects.

Granted, he was very weak-willed and easily manipulated by Kor Phaeron and Erebus, but his anger towards the Emperor was justified.

Didnt they get told to leave the city because it would be destroyed at such a time and the priest was only blinded because she looked back to see the death of her city?

Yeah I agree it was a bit messed up that he made him kneel in fron of old Gill, not the brightest idea the Emperor ever had. Then again I've thought that a few times reading HH, maybe he's not so bright after all.

That's what I've never got about Lorgar is his weak will, I mean he's meant to be a friggin primarch so how come he's lead to and fro by the hand by a mortal that should know jack gak compared to him?

Lorgar isn't a particularly sinister character if you ask me, he's a pretty simple, straight forward, flawed character. I would say that he isn't evil either, he just wants the truth to be told, and that's what ever version of the truth he is telling.

Sometimes it's hard to believe that Horus is the leader of the Heresy because of Lorgars actions. He might go along with it, but he is most certainly pursuing his own goal.

Hell, each of the Primarchs has their own agenda for following Horus. This is one of the differences between the traitors and the loyalist Primarchs.

Lorgar hated being compared to Guilliman in despite of their similarities they are very different characters. In Visions when the Emperor reprimands Lorgar he says look to Guilliman and the Ultramarines, that's what you should be like. It's basically saying I am disappointed in you Lorgar. He's the most human of the Primarchs in the way that he takes everything to heart and I believe that this is also why he was so easily led, he always put his whole self into following something. There was only you are right and everything else is wrong.

Lorgar's story is about love for his father. He thinks that the Emperor is more than the Emperor himself thinks he is.

Loves.
Loves a lot.
Loves an awefull lot.
Loves too much.
Told to back the gak down.
Hates.
Finds someone that likes to be worshipped.

A simple mind in a simple body.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
This might be hard for you to realise, but an entire population's worth of people were killed or rendered homeless for something that was no fault of their own, which doesn't seem like much for 40k, but Logar, unlike his brothers, actually held some amount of empathy for the mortals that were his subjects.

Only one city was destroyed. It's population was removed before that. It is the height of irony to say that Lorgar cared about his subjects in contrast to Guilliman.


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 Pilau Rice wrote:
Sometimes it's hard to believe that Horus is the leader of the Heresy

The individual betrayals of the others were only possible and meaningful for that matter because Horus, the favored son, rebelled. No other Primarchs would have rallied around anyone of lesser stature than Horus, who excelled them all in the widest consideration.

 Manchu wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
This might be hard for you to realise, but an entire population's worth of people were killed or rendered homeless for something that was no fault of their own, which doesn't seem like much for 40k, but Logar, unlike his brothers, actually held some amount of empathy for the mortals that were his subjects.

Only one city was destroyed. It's population was removed before that. It is the height of irony to say that Lorgar cared about his subjects in contrast to Guilliman.


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 Pilau Rice wrote:
Sometimes it's hard to believe that Horus is the leader of the Heresy

The individual betrayals of the others were only possible and meaningful for that matter because Horus, the favored son, rebelled. No other Primarchs would have rallied around anyone of lesser stature than Horus, who excelled them all in the widest consideration.

Why in "contrast to Guilliman"?

Because none of the other Primarchs could hold a candle to Guilliman as far as non-violence. Ultramar is pretty much the least grimdark place in all of the Imperium, even pre-heresy.

Anyway, Lorgar's slowed, literally, like most Primarchs. He spent the first half of TFH bawling, spent the middle being growing a pair, than went back to bawling on Istvaan, I wouldn't say he's misunderstood so much as he's just extremely sensitive and impressionable. Apparently he grows a pair, again, in Aurelian, however.

He needed to grow a pair and man up

Grow a pair and man up?? You should try and get your hands on a copy of Aurelian, if you can. Because that book really brings out Lorgar's badass side.



Also, the audio drama Butcher's Nails features a whole bunch of Manly Lorgar action, including Angron's surprise at Manly Lorgar's manliness.

People calling Lorgar a child are silly, he was among the most mature of the Primarchs and that's precisely why he turned. He sought greater meaning to his existence and to his Legions existence besides killing and more killing.

He wasn't mature, he was a weak-willed man easily manipulated by a couple of traitors.

There was nothing noble about the war he wrought. There is a difference between wanting to know a horrible truth, and enslaving yourself to it. Lorgar chose the latter.

Also, in terms of Aurelian:

 Harriticus wrote:
He sought greater meaning to his existence and to his Legions existence besides killing and more killing.

If this was true, he would have heeded the Emperor's admonition to learn from Guilliman.

Not really, no.

Lorgar and Guilliman were a lot alike in that they both made the worlds they conquered better than they were before, in that regard, they were similar.

The Emperor was just angry that Lorgar's progress through the galaxy was going too slowly.

Like Lorgar, you seem to have missed the Emperor's point. Guilliman was interested in his Astartes being more than warriors. But he did not conceive of this as transcending the Emperor's purposes. His Legion would be the governors of humanity, not the high priests of the Emperor.

The Emperor's only point was that Lorgar should do what he says regardless of his personal feelings.

The Emperor never gave two gaks about the Space Marines being more than soldiers, as long as they were capable soldiers and met his expectations.

Do you have a source to back that massive assumption?

The First Heretic.

What with not really giving a gak about, you know, Lorgar improving the planets he conquered. Magnus supports as much, pointing out that, despite his renovations of many worlds he has conquered, he was still a soldier first, as was Guilliman. Then there is the fact that the Space Wolves were a favored Legion, despite never renovating anything, but rather burned worlds to the ground.

The Emperor did not mind Marines being more than soldiers as long as they still did the whole soldiering part, and similarly, he didn't care if they were soldiers exclusive of all else. He had humans to rule and govern planets. The Space Marines exist to conquer.

On the other hand, what do you believe was the Emperor's "point"?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The First Heretic.

That's not what that book was about.

As I already mentioned, Guilliman and Lorgar both wanted more for their legions than just prosecuting war. But Guilliman understood that war was their raison d'être whereas Lorgar rejected that at a basic level. Unlike Guilliman, Lorgar subverted and ultimately neglected his duties for the sake of religious goals anathema to the Great Crusade. Not only was he not implementing compliance on other worlds; he was undermining the Imperial Truth on worlds where compliance had already been secured.

 Manchu wrote:
That's not what that book was about.

No, that is what the Emperor's actions were about.

As I already mentioned, Guilliman and Lorgar both wanted more for their legions than just prosecuting war.

This is not a unique concept for them.

At the minimum, Fulgrim and Magnus wanted the same.

But Guilliman understood that war was their raison d'être whereas Lorgar rejected that at a basic level.

Right, like Magnus did, who told Lorgar as much, and if you recall, I said that in my last post.

Unlike Guilliman, Lorgar subverted and ultimately neglected his duties for the sake of religious goals anathema to the Great Crusade. Not only was he not implementing compliance on other worlds; he was undermining the Imperial Truth on worlds where compliance had already been secured.

Which funnily enough the Emperor never seemed to have much of a problem with for the longest time, Lorgar pointed out as much.

And what does that have to do with learning from Guilliman? Do you even remember what your original point was? What was he to learn from Guilliman? "Learn not to worship me like a god and subvert the Imperial Truth"?

MILD SPOILER FROM The First Heretic

In reading The First Heretic (a fine novel, which lamentably inspired me to start collecting and painting for 40k all over again), it seemed to me that Lorgar's strength was his faith, and his tragic flaw is that his faith is blind. The passage where Argel Tal is told that his legion possesses this flaw seems to me to support that reasoning.

He has a great deal if faith in Erebus and Kor Phaeron due to their paternal relationship, and it blinds him to their fairly obvious ambition and deception.

Similarly, he sees the Emperor's divinity but let's it blind him to the Emperor's flaws. The Emperor is most certainly a god by the standards of the 40k universe, but clearly an imperfect one more in keeping with Classical tradition rather than the perfect deity more common to modern Western religion.

So to me, the Lorgar we see in The First Heretic isn't an evil character. He's the sort of character I love. He's making an awful, awful decision because he believes that it is the right thing to do.

99% of people who make awful decisions do so because they believe it's the right thing to do.

 Manchu wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
This might be hard for you to realise, but an entire population's worth of people were killed or rendered homeless for something that was no fault of their own, which doesn't seem like much for 40k, but Logar, unlike his brothers, actually held some amount of empathy for the mortals that were his subjects.

Only one city was destroyed. It's population was removed before that. It is the height of irony to say that Lorgar cared about his subjects in contrast to Guilliman.

The Ultramarines destroyed sixteen cities across the planet, not just Monarchia. Anyone who refused to evacuate the city was butchered, as noted not just in the distress signal that the planet sends to the Word Bearers, but in the scene where someone throws a rock at the newly landed Ultramarines and they open fire on the crowd with their bolters.


It was a pretty brutal act on the part of the Ultramarines.

I've had that shirt for years. Wear it a lot to the gym.



As far as Lorgar goes, no, he wasn't misunderstood. He was mentally weak; obsessed with the acceptance and love of his father. When the Emperor rejected him, he couldn't handle it, and went elsewhere looking for validation. Chaos told him the lies he was looking to hear, and so he embraced them.

Lorgar hated Guilliman because he was jealous of him. Guilliman had everything that Lorgar wanted. He was a masterful general, he was a favorite of (his father) the Emperor. Lorgar's real hatred should have been the Emperor. Guilliman destroyed Monarchia because he was told to, and Guilliman was The Good Son, who did what he was told, and was supposed to. Lorgar's hatred of Guilliman was more of his childish, mentally weak personality coming through.

Honestly, Lorgar was the most pitiful of the Primarchs. The First Heretic was good in that it made you sorta empathize with him. He was desperate for validation, crushed by rejection, and bitter with jealousy. Him falling first to Chaos really makes sense. He was the weakest of his brothers, and Chaos knew that. They knew what he wanted, so they gave it to him.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
That's not what that book was about.

No, that is what the Emperor's actions were about.

Not really.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Unlike Guilliman, Lorgar subverted and ultimately neglected his duties for the sake of religious goals anathema to the Great Crusade. Not only was he not implementing compliance on other worlds; he was undermining the Imperial Truth on worlds where compliance had already been secured.

Which funnily enough the Emperor never seemed to have much of a problem with for the longest time, Lorgar pointed out as much.

And how did the Emperor respond? The truth is, that conversation isn't recorded. What you're referring to is that Lorgar brought it up afterwards, while in denial and on the verge of his spiteful worship of Chaos. It's reasonable that the Emperor intervened because Lorgar was way off the deepend by that point. He took dramatic action because it was warranted.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
And what does that have to do with learning from Guilliman? Do you even remember what your original point was? What was he to learn from Guilliman? "Learn not to worship me like a god and subvert the Imperial Truth"?

Try to keep up. Lorgar was to learn from Gulliman how to pursue the goal of greater meaning for his legion without neglecting his duty to the Great Crusade and the Imperial Truth.

Mindshred wrote:
It was a pretty brutal act on the part of the Ultramarines.

It was only brutal regarding the people in the sense of the material loss. This was a particularly "soft" instance of compliance, remember. Lorgar had not actually brought Monarchia into compliance but rather undermined the Imperial Truth. So like with every other planet in the galaxy, the Imperium gave the people of Monarchia a choice: comply or be destroyed. Those who evacuated the idolater cities were in compliance. Those who refused were devastated along with everyone the legions came across who refused compliance. But Monarchia was peculiar in that the Ultramarines handled it with extraordinary sensitivity, something the populations of almost all other worlds did not get. This was because Lorgar had made a huge mistake and Guilliman was loathe to punish them for his brother's failure. Guilliman evidently thought it was bad enough that the Emperor was punishing Lorgar in this blunt fashion.

Void__Dragon 4 wrote:

The Emperor humiliated him and his entire legion in front of the man Lorgar disliked most (Guilliman), right after destroying one of Lorgar's favorite worlds.

Did he hate Guilliman before that? I don't think there was any evidence. He despaired that he wasn't as favored as Guilliman and never could be, but his rage was being humiliated in front of the brother who had everything he wanted. I think Lorgar was both jealous and envious of Guilliman, but I don't think he disliked him. The hatred that Lorgar developed for Guilliman arose because of his inability to handle rejection and humiliation. Blaming Guilliman for his own failures became an outlet. Lorgar wasn't rational ever again after Monarchia. The rejection of the Emperor, whose validation was the one thing he craved more than anything, broke him, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. Transferring his hatred of the Emperor to Guilliman was how he compensated. Guilliman represented something that was possibly beatable. Something he could lash out at.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
He was the weakest of his brothers, and Chaos knew that.

QFT. He was the "first heretic" for a reason.


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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Transferring his hatred of the Emperor to Guilliman was how he compensated.

Again, QFT. The worst tragedy for Lorgar was that even when he turned to worshiping Chaos, I'd bet he still truly believed in the divinity of the Emperor.

Lorgar is prone to fanaticism and to crave validation, a desire to be "the chosen one", all characteristics nurtured by his adoptive father Kor Phaeron, who also just happened to be a Chaos cultist.

You have to remember that as a child he led a Crusade that saw half of the population of his home planet wiped out in religious pogroms. He didn't want to kill those people, but he saw it as absolutely necessary because he was convinced in the truth of his vision. His attitude towards the Heresy was much the same. He saw the truth of the universe in the face of Chaos, and he bought their crap about how they just want to co-exist with humanity, so becomes determined to reveal this truth to the whole galaxy. At one point in Aurellian he decides that since the face of Chaos is so distasteful/horrifying to the uninitiated, a crusade will regrettably have to be the necessary course of action.

 Manchu wrote:
Only one city was destroyed. It's population was removed before that. It is the height of irony to say that Lorgar cared about his subjects in contrast to Guilliman.

As mentioned before, the distress call mentions sixteen cities swept completely clean of life. Many citizens resisted/refused to leave and were put down. That said, the Ultramarines were very gentle in the prosecution of their duties, including one Ultramarine even briefly stopping to answer Cyrene's questions. I don't see many other Legionnaires doing that, much less not killing the upstart human immediately.

That really is the part that people miss, is just how light handed the Ultramarines dealt with Monarchia.

The Ultramarines are who they are for a reason, and they would have done what they were told. But, it's a far cry different than if the Emperor had sent the Space Wolves or the World Eaters to destroy Monarchia.

Very true, I never thought about the Ultramarines being light handed when they glassed 16 cities, but compare them to the Space Wolves and I can see your point Omegus.

Angron would just start killing and burning everything and salting the earth and pissing on the ashes. Russ would follow the plan initially, but would act all belligerent and alpha male, provoking a full scale battle with the Word Bearers. I don't see the Wolf King taking Lorgar swinging at him as gracefully as Guilliman did, for example.

But while I agree, more or less, with VetSarge's characterization of Lorgar's more human failings, before we dismiss Aurellian as a pussy, we must consider that the fanatic is a reflection of his faith. When Lorgar placed his faith in the Emperor, he was human and meek; when he embraced the Primordial Annihilator, he became among the strongest of his brothers.

Yeah, he probably would have just got KTFO, like in his bout with the Lion.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Sometimes it's hard to believe that Horus is the leader of the Heresy

The individual betrayals of the others were only possible and meaningful for that matter because Horus, the favored son, rebelled. No other Primarchs would have rallied around anyone of lesser stature than Horus, who excelled them all in the widest consideration.

Which is true, but who's pulling Horus strings. He says that he is in control and its his rebellion, sometimes it's hard to believe, which is my point.

With everyone going after their own agenda I see your point but because following Horus acheives their goals for the mean time I think they just let him think he's in charge. Plus when he died there was no one respected or strong enough to dominate the rest and I think thats why they all split.

In the books it feels like Eberus (spell fail?) is pulling his strings, at least at the start.

Does Horus ever actually worship Chaos?

He doesn't seem to worship the Chaos Gods no, at least not currently.

In Nemesis, it's possible that he has some contact with them, as he knows what Erebus had been doing, but there could be another explanation for this.

He also sacrifices the remainder of the planet to the Gods for rewards or assistance.

By the end of the Heresy he is their pawn pretty much but whether this is because of him worshiping them or just by corruption we don't know yet.

 Manchu wrote:
Does Horus ever actually worship Chaos?

He indirectly did. He was using Chaos power constantly but always said he was in control of it and the Gods of Chaos were his pawns when by the end of the Heresy the opposite was true. This is a fairly common trap a lot of followers of Chaos fall into, and the Dark Gods probably find this attitude amusing if anything.

By the time he fought the Big-E, all 4 Chaos Gods were simultaneously pouring power into him at a rate that hasn't been seen in a single individual before or since.

From what I've read in the latest book with Horus in "Fear to Tread", Erebus and other word bearer do all the worshipping and rituals, while Horus communicates and makes deals with the demons. So far, Horus remains wise to their manipulations, but as others have said, this won't last for much longer.

 Mr Nobody wrote:
From what I've read in the latest book with Horus in "Fear to Tread", Erebus and other word bearer do all the worshipping and rituals, while Horus communicates and makes deals with the demons. So far, Horus remains wise to their manipulations, but as others have said, this won't last for much longer.

Isn't that how manipulation works though, you think you're in control but it's the other way around.

Horus is convinced that he is, but at the End of Fear to Tread was that reaffirming his authority or where he is starting to feel it slipping through his fingers.

It's hard to know what Horus really wants out of all of this.

 Manchu wrote:
It's hard to know what Horus really wants out of all of this.

I know, it's kinda bad isn't it. All these books in and not a clue yet, other than Horus is afraid that he won't be remembered.

He is a weakling.

He was not happy with the role chosen for his life and he needed something to blindly worship after getting the smackdown by the Emperor.

I think people are forgeting that he was the Emperors loyal subject until he got stabed on Davins moon. Plus we're meant to be talking about Lorgar, I think we've stepped away from the central issue.

Horus is a nice contrast to Lorgar in answering OP's question. Whereas Horus's motivations seem ...cloudy ... Lorgar's are very clear. Others have noted that Lorgar did what he thought was right but I'm not sure that was the case when it came to worshiping Chaos. The more I think about it, the more I think Lorgar still believed in the Emperor's divinity and pledged himself to the Chaos gods in spite. It's sort of like turning from God to worship Satan; it's not that you don't believe that God is God anymore -- but you're trying to spite Him by treating something else with the adoration that is due only to Him.

And then there's the issue of what belief demands. If Lorgar really believed the Emperor was God, why not just follow his commands? Why not just hold his tongue and believe privately? For Lorgar, it's not really about the Emperor. It's all about Lorgar. Lorgar wanted to be the high priest. What use is a god who forbids having high priests? The Emperor had no trouble with Lorgar's private belief. He said he wasn't a god and Lorgar thought that was just more proof that he really was. But what the Emperor could not tolerate was the building of a new church. It ran contrary to Unification, the Great Crusade, and the Imperial Truth.

Whether or not Lorgar was allowed to believe in the divinity of the Emperor was never at issue. The issue was that he could not use the Great Crusade as an excuse to build the Ecclesiarchy. Lorgar is a very self-absorbed character. He doesn't care about his god so much as he cares about himself acting as the head of the religion.

Is therewa quote anywhere where the Emperor said he would allow Lorgar to whorship him Manchu?

No, why would there need to be? If Lorgar had kept it to himself and otherwise acted like the Ultramarines, are you telling me the Emperor would have perforce gotten on his case? In fact, it was only when things got really bad (building churches, etc) that the Emperor stepped in at Monarchia.

I'm confused, how is it known that the Emperor had no problem Lorgar whorshiping him?

It's pretty simple:

(1) If Lorgar had been totally silent about it, how would the Emperor even have known?

(2) The Emperor did in fact know and didn't really care until it started subverting Lorgar's duties vis-a-vis the Great Crusade.

That said, I think you're missing the point. The point isn't that the Emperor didn't mind Lorgar thinking he was a god. Rather, the point is that Lorgar didn't really care about the Emperor being God so much as he wanted to start Lorgar's Church of the Emperor and become Pope Lorgar.

Lol pope Lorgar lol

I understand now, cheers

The most mature primarch is Vulkan by far, but it was tragic that Lorgar and Magnus fell to the ruinous powers, but in the end they are still heretics and traitors.

 Manchu wrote:


(2) The Emperor did in fact know and didn't really care until it started subverting Lorgar's duties vis-a-vis the Great Crusade.

Or I like to think that as with the other Primarchs when they weren't happy about something they went off to the Emperor. Emperor doing his daddy duties as well as being the Lord of the Imperium had to take heed and try to rectify the situation. The problem with having 20 Sons is that there are 20 times the problems and 20 times the effort to make them all happy,

 Manchu wrote:
. If Lorgar really believed the Emperor was God, why not just follow his commands? Why not just hold his tongue and believe privately? For Lorgar, it's not really about the Emperor. It's all about Lorgar. Lorgar wanted to be the high priest. What use is a god who forbids having high priests?

In the conversation/argument Lorgar had with the Emperor on Monarchia, we are given a hint that this is an argument they've had multiple times. Lorgar believes faith is the most powerful force that can unite and protect humanity (he's right of course in the context of the 40k universe), while the Emperor argued for enlightenment and reason.

I don't get any hint at all from Lorgar's actions or words that his primary motivation is self-aggrandizement.

As for the Emperor finally choosing to make his point about the Word Bearers' practices after overlooking it for so long, it seems he was reaching the next stage of his plan. A good chunk of the universe was pacified, his webway hack was almost complete, and the post-Crusade Imperium began to take shape. Particularly with Remembrancers recording the last stages of the Crusade for mass consumption, the Emperor started reigning in the more outrageous Legions; the Night Lords go renegade roughly around this time after mutliple sanctions, the World Eaters had also been summoned to answer for their excesses shortly before Horus approached Angron, and the overly religious Word Bearers were brought to heel. If Outcast Dead can be considered a valid addition to the tale, the next step could well be the culling of all deviant Legions.

 Omegus wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
. If Lorgar really believed the Emperor was God, why not just follow his commands? Why not just hold his tongue and believe privately? For Lorgar, it's not really about the Emperor. It's all about Lorgar. Lorgar wanted to be the high priest. What use is a god who forbids having high priests?

In the conversation/argument Lorgar had with the Emperor on Monarchia, we are given a hint that this is an argument they've had multiple times. Lorgar believes faith is the most powerful force that can unite and protect humanity (he's right of course in the context of the 40k universe), while the Emperor argued for enlightenment and reason.

I don't get any hint at all from Lorgar's actions or words that his primary motivation is self-aggrandizement.

As for the Emperor finally choosing to make his point about the Word Bearers' practices after overlooking it for so long, it seems he was reaching the next stage of his plan. A good chunk of the universe was pacified, his webway hack was almost complete, and the post-Crusade Imperium began to take shape. Particularly with Remembrancers recording the last stages of the Crusade for mass consumption, the Emperor started reigning in the more outrageous Legions; the Night Lords go renegade roughly around this time after mutliple sanctions, the World Eaters had also been summoned to answer for their excesses shortly before Horus approached Angron, and the overly religious Word Bearers were brought to heel. If Outcast Dead can be considered a valid addition to the tale, the next step could well be the culling of all deviant Legions.

Magnus at Nikaea, well, all Legions at Nikaea that had Librarians, but the Thousand Sons were the Emperors main concern.

I thought about including that example, but the Nikea council was brought together due to the urging of Leman Russ and Mortarion, and it was something the Emperor didn't seem particularly willing to do but went along with it to keep the peace.

I think rather than curtailing an errant Legion, the Nikea ruling mostly just showed what kind of time constraints the Emperor was working under. I saw the decision more like, "Are psykers good? Are psykers bad? I don't have time to deal with this right now, I have a newly-forged galactic Empire to organize. Just stop using all powers to be on the safe side in the meantime, and I'll deal with the issue once I've conquered webway technology."

Of course, there are expectations on the Emprah, so he had to be all bombastic about it to satisfy the prosecution.

I think this was asked above but, why were the Space Wolves (doh!) allowed to keep their rune priests after the council given that they are librarians in a SW's kinda way?

1.Arrogance and Russ(both go in the same sentence)
2.Not all rune priests were offensive psykers, some of them were like shamans (making totems,wards etc.)
3.Their role of "executioners"...

Funny but hypocritism also comes from Emperor and Custodians if they let them be...and the other legions who did use psykic powers...

end here is interesting convesation between two loving friends

 Omegus wrote:
I don't get any hint at all from Lorgar's actions or words that his primary motivation is self-aggrandizement.

I obviously disagree. But I suppose there are two possibilities:

(1) Lorgar does not really believe the Emperor is a god/the God: In this case, Lorgar is free to rebel since he really just wants to build a Church of the Imperium to unite humanity. He knows the Emperor is not really a god, so he doesn't really have any duty to obey.

(2) Lorgar really believes the Emperor is a god/the God: This is more troublesome; how can Lorgar justify disobeying his god? He either thinks he knows better than God or that God secretly wants him to be defiant. Monarchia made it clear that the latter option could not be true.

But either way, Lorgar's actions don't end up being about what the Emperor wants or thinks. In both cases, Lorgar ends up thinking he knows better than the Emperor. And that's basically sedition. Whether Lorgar believes the Emperor is truly divine or not, he's still substituting himself as the High Priest for the Emperor when it comes to actual leadership of humanity.

This leads me to believe that the Emperor's real problem with religion is that it could muddy the chain of command.


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 Omegus wrote:
I think rather than curtailing an errant Legion, the Nikea ruling mostly just showed what kind of time constraints the Emperor was working under. I saw the decision more like, "Are psykers good? Are psykers bad? I don't have time to deal with this right now, I have a newly-forged galactic Empire to organize. Just stop using all powers to be on the safe side in the meantime, and I'll deal with the issue once I've conquered webway technology."

No, Nikaea was a direct and personal admonition to Magnus. The Emperor was certainly not constrained by the other Primarchs in making this decision. The issue was Magnus and the Thousand Sons -- they were becoming an increasing threat to the Emperor's own plans.

 Omegus wrote:
I thought about including that example, but the Nikea council was brought together due to the urging of Leman Russ and Mortarion, and it was something the Emperor didn't seem particularly willing to do but went along with it to keep the peace.

I think rather than curtailing an errant Legion, the Nikea ruling mostly just showed what kind of time constraints the Emperor was working under. I saw the decision more like, "Are psykers good? Are psykers bad? I don't have time to deal with this right now, I have a newly-forged galactic Empire to organize. Just stop using all powers to be on the safe side in the meantime, and I'll deal with the issue once I've conquered webway technology."

Of course, there are expectations on the Emprah, so he had to be all bombastic about it to satisfy the prosecution.

Come on Omegus, if the Thousand Sons aren't an errant legion I don't know what is. I don't think at any time the Emperor ever told them to go make pacts with warp entities or study the arcane, it all goes against the Imperial Truth of science. They might not have been told before Nikaea, but Magnus was if I recall, directly by the Emperor to not do what they were doing, and Russ and Mortarion certainly bought their concerns to the Emperors attention, but Nikaea was a definite telling off to Magnus, like Monarchia was to Lorgar.

What was the other name for Nikaea, the Trial of Magnus the Red

Thousand Sons were really the only Legion with a legitimate reason to rebel though and there's a true tragedy behind them, I think that's the key difference.

Horus was just tricked by the Chaos powers who used his subconscious jealously
Fulgrim was possessed
Angron was motivated by pure hate
The Emperor just didn't fit Mortarion's own vision
Perturabo was bitter
Lorgar was fanatical and angry over his treatment
Curze is insane
Lord knows what was up with Alpharius

 Harriticus wrote:
Thousand Sons were really the only Legion with a legitimate reason to rebel though and there's a true tragedy behind them, I think that's the key difference.

I would disagree with you, It's only legitimate if you forget that Magnus disobeyed the ruling of Nikaea.

I'm not sure how he expected the Emperor to react. Even if the Emperor actually believed what Magnus message contained, there would still be the huge issue that Magnus blatantly ignored what the Emperor decreed.

Magnus didn't have to side with Horus and I am pretty sure he could have communicated with Russ if he had sucked it up. Imagine what could have been saved if Magnus had just had said ok to Russ and given up, rather than hide, resign himself to his fate and then wuss out again when it got to much for him.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


What was the other name for Nikaea, the Trial of Magnus the Red

Yep - this was only his trial, no matter how generaly official it sounded...

But facts remain - double agents from chaos, played their roles very well....

 Garvy wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


What was the other name for Nikaea, the Trial of Magnus the Red

Yep - this was only his trial, no matter how generaly official it sounded...

But facts remain - double agents from chaos, played their roles very well....

At doing what, convincing the Emperor to make that decision

Converting two legions against each other...IMHO Bjorn (Bear) vs Amon tiped the ruling....

 Garvy wrote:
Converting two legions against each other...IMHO Bjorn vs Amon tiped the ruling....

I don't think they ever liked each other, they were just too different and after Shrike, wasn't much that could salvage their relationship.

Wasn't that out of the way during Nikaea with everything going on down below?

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Garvy wrote:
Converting two legions against each other...IMHO Bjorn vs Amon tiped the ruling....

I don't think they ever liked each other, they were just too different and after Shrike, wasn't much that could salvage their relationship.

Wasn't that out of the way during Nikaea with everything going on down below?

NO

But did he get to pass his report before the ruling was made and did it actually influence the Emperors decision?

Will have a look myself later.

To me, the ruling against Magnus seems a forgone conlcusion with the Cyclops allowed to present a defense mostly as a point of honor.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
But did he get to pass his report before the ruling was made and did it actually influence the Emperors decision?

Will have a look myself later.

There, section ends, so there is that "?" moment..
But bare in mind, Amon told Hawser that he is a TS and used power of a "true name" (malificarum) as a weapon,which comfirmed Russ' suspicion,....Only when Prospero got burned he revealed himself to Hawser as a deamon...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
To me, the ruling against Magnus seems a forgone conlcusion with the Cyclops allowed to present a defense mostly as a point of honor.

And what suprised me - no other PRO librarian primarch spoke im Cyclops defense...only that WS...

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Magnus didn't have to side with Horus and I am pretty sure he could have communicated with Russ if he had sucked it up. Imagine what could have been saved if Magnus had just had said ok to Russ and given up, rather than hide, resign himself to his fate and then wuss out again when it got to much for him.

Leman Russ already made it clear when he spoke to Hawser that this is Magnus's only chance to speak up and go quietly. Leman Russ tried to appeal to Magnus's reason, and in his mind was denied.

Despite the fact that, you know, Magnus never had anything to do with Hawser's condition, so he might as well have been appealing to the reason of a brick wall.

Garvy wrote:
And what suprised me - no other PRO librarian primarch spoke im Cyclops defense...only that WS...

I don't think that should have been that surprising. Despite the fact that psykers were increasingly becoming the backbone of the Imperium, many people were extremely fearful of them (and this was back when memories of the Long Night were fresher, so possibly they were even more prejudiced than now). Even pro-Librarius Primarchs were very wary of what Magnus and his Thousand Sons could do. The Death Guard and Space Wolves weren't the only ones to gak their britches when they saw what the Sons could really do. In Fear to Tread a human asks Sanguinius that if he's an angel, shouldn't there be devils? And he half-jokingly responds, "Have you met my brother Magnus?"

Void__Dragon wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Magnus didn't have to side with Horus and I am pretty sure he could have communicated with Russ if he had sucked it up. Imagine what could have been saved if Magnus had just had said ok to Russ and given up, rather than hide, resign himself to his fate and then wuss out again when it got to much for him.

Leman Russ already made it clear when he spoke to Hawser that this is Magnus's only chance to speak up and go quietly. Leman Russ tried to appeal to Magnus's reason, and in his mind was denied.

Despite the fact that, you know, Magnus never had anything to do with Hawser's condition, so he might as well have been appealing to the reason of a brick wall.

Just like Russ felt that he made every attempt to communicate that he should have, Magnus didn't really have the impetus to think there was any reason in Russ to appeal to. After all, by this point, on Shrike Russ had murdered quite a few Thousand Sons and demonstrated that he was ready to go to war with his brother over a library, much less an Imperial edict.

But the fact remains,TS wouldn't be TS if it weren't for Tzeench - so don't compare regular psykers who skim the warp and sorcerers who swim in it and their primarch dealing with deamons....
I' always wondered what was that creature which pushed Magnus in the warp on his way to warn the Emperor?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Lorgar is too stupid to be evil. He wouldn't be held accountable for his own actions in a modern day court of law, he would be declared mentally incompetent.

Lorgar has no thought of his own, he just does what other people tell him to do.

Like when he fought Corax to defend his sons, despite Kor Phaeron telling him not to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
Just like Fulgrim was sent to feel out other Primarchs loyalties so was Lorgar (can't remember who off the top of my head), he couldn't have been that stupid, though I have to say he did at the start come off at the start as a whinning pussy

(bo ho the nasty Emperor smacked my bottom and distroyed my favourite toy, now I'm going in my room to mope about it for a month, and I'm not talking to anybody!) pussy.

The Emperor humiliated him and his entire legion in front of the man Lorgar disliked most (Guilliman), right after destroying one of Lorgar's favorite worlds.

This might be hard for you to realise, but an entire population's worth of people were killed or rendered homeless for something that was no fault of their own, which doesn't seem like much for 40k, but Logar, unlike his brothers, actually held some amount of empathy for the mortals that were his subjects.

Granted, he was very weak-willed and easily manipulated by Kor Phaeron and Erebus, but his anger towards the Emperor was justified.

His actions during Know No Fear? Pretty firmly cements him in the "evil" category. Mass daemon summonings like they committed require more then just wreaths of flowers and good will.

And here is Russ' offer of surrender so you be the judge who sent him to sanction Magnus



Automatically Appended Next Post:

djones520 wrote:


His actions during Know No Fear? Pretty firmly cements him in the "evil" category. Mass daemon summonings like they committed require more then just wreaths of flowers and good will.

I dont know, but I can't picture Lorgar as an evil guy, ofc he is a traitor (like all traitor primarchs) but I just can't....

I will be reading Know No Fear soon myself, I'll see what I have to think about Lorgar when I do.

 Omegus wrote:
I don't think that should have been that surprising. Despite the fact that psykers were increasingly becoming the backbone of the Imperium, many people were extremely fearful of them (and this was back when memories of the Long Night were fresher, so possibly they were even more prejudiced than now). Even pro-Librarius Primarchs were very wary of what Magnus and his Thousand Sons could do. The Death Guard and Space Wolves weren't the only ones to gak their britches when they saw what the Sons could really do. In Fear to Tread a human asks Sanguinius that if he's an angel, shouldn't there be devils? And he half-jokingly responds, "Have you met my brother Magnus?"

Yeah, I've gotten the impression that the Thousand Sons were one of the more feared (By the Imperium) Legions, due to their sorcery, and the sheer power it brought.

It took IIRC like seven to nine possessed Marines to take a few Custodians, and many of said possessed Marines were killed.

Solitary Thousand Sons captains were capable of killing that many Custodians single-handedly, Phosis T'kar seemed almost bored and disappointedd by how trivial the act was.

Just like Russ felt that he made every attempt to communicate that he should have, Magnus didn't really have the impetus to think there was any reason in Russ to appeal to. After all, by this point, on Shrike Russ had murdered quite a few Thousand Sons and demonstrated that he was ready to go to war with his brother over a library, much less an Imperial edict.

Magnus thinking Leman Russ was an entirely unreasonable being isn't surprising, considering, yeah, he does sort of murder several Thousand Sons unprovoked.

 Garvy wrote:

There, section ends, so there is that "?" moment..
But bare in mind, Amon told Hawser that he is a TS

Spoiler:

‘I am Amon of the Fifteenth Astartes, Captain of the Ninth Fellowship, Equerry to the Primarch.’

and used power of a "true name" (malificarum) as a weapon,which comfirmed Russ' suspicion,....Only when Prospero got burned he revealed himself to Hawser as a deamon...

I am still not sure whether or not the 'Amon' incident affected the decision of the Emperor, after the 'Amon' flees and is chased by Custodes and manages to escape, Russ says it doesn't matter as the ruling has already been made. No mention that this was advised to the Emperor. It certainly created more animosity between the two legions, which I guess was it's goal.

omegus wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Magnus didn't have to side with Horus and I am pretty sure he could have communicated with Russ if he had sucked it up. Imagine what could have been saved if Magnus had just had said ok to Russ and given up, rather than hide, resign himself to his fate and then wuss out again when it got to much for him.

Leman Russ already made it clear when he spoke to Hawser that this is Magnus's only chance to speak up and go quietly. Leman Russ tried to appeal to Magnus's reason, and in his mind was denied.

Despite the fact that, you know, Magnus never had anything to do with Hawser's condition, so he might as well have been appealing to the reason of a brick wall.

Just like Russ felt that he made every attempt to communicate that he should have, Magnus didn't really have the impetus to think there was any reason in Russ to appeal to. After all, by this point, on Shrike Russ had murdered quite a few Thousand Sons and demonstrated that he was ready to go to war with his brother over a library, much less an Imperial edict.

No, my point here is Magnus is a pretty capable psyker. If he had not masked the approach of the Space Wolves and listened out for Russ he could have contacted him when Russ was trying through Hawser, regardless of the fact he was not a Thousand Sons agent. Magnus can travel to one side of the cosmos to the other, he most certainly can listen to a message from his brother in the same section of space.

Magnus still didn't have to side with Chaos and if he did want to make amends rather than martyr himself, then he could have made call a to Russ and actually accepted the punishment that his father had set out for him, rather than the one he assigned to himself that he didn't actually go through with.

 Garvy wrote:
And here is Russ' offer of surrender so you be the judge who sent him to sanction Magnus

Spoiler:

‘That’s not why I’m talking to you now. I’m talking to you because I hope you’ll listen. I’m talking to you as the personal courtesy extended from one brother to another. What is about to happen should not be happening. You know I do not want this. You know it tears my heart to commit against you, and it breaks the very soul of our father to place his sons in opposition. But you have done this. You have brought this. You have brought this action.’
Russ swallowed again. He looked down at the deck, though he was still directing his words at Hawser.
Hawser stood numb, shaking, rooted to the spot.
‘We gave you every chance, Magnus. We indulged your learning, we gave you room to explore. When we became fearful of where those explorations were leading you, and how they might endanger everything we value, we told you of our concerns. The Council at Nikaea, that was supposed to be a moment of reconciliation. You swore you would renounce the cunning arts. You swore! You swore you would abide by our father’s ruling!’
His voice dropped to a whisper.
‘You did not. You have proved your intent to ignore the Ruling of Nikaea beyond all doubt. So this is on you. You must have known our father’s hands would be tied. He would have no other option than to turn to me to issue sanction.’

Which is backing up my thoughts that if Magnus had said, I'll come quietly and admit my sins, Russ would have accepted. He still loves his brother, but he loves his father more. Unless, he knew that Hawser wasn't a Thousand Sons agent and this was for show just so that he could look like the bigger man.

A lot of what ifs really as we know how it went down.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Magnus thinking Leman Russ was an entirely unreasonable being isn't surprising, considering, yeah, he does sort of murder several Thousand Sons unprovoked.

Several? I only thought it was one on Shrike and it was a mutant, Russ done the Thousand Son a favour.

Leman Russ killed several Thousand Sons with his psychic howl.

How ironic, that a man whom so fervently hates psykers is himself a very powerful one.

Every legion,with Tzeench holding of mutation from channeling warp,can be on the God mode...So, chaos gave them "no limit " option, when they revoked it, they became regular psykers...
So there is big difference from psyker and sorcerer on steroids....

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Leman Russ killed several Thousand Sons with his psychic howl.

How ironic, that a man whom so fervently hates psykers is himself a very powerful one.

Hmm I think I remember that. I don't think that was intentional though, that's not the Wolf Kings style.

Nor do I think he is a psyker, it's just the way the Emperor made them and their affinity they have with the warp.

 DarthMarko wrote:
Every legion,with Tzeench holding of mutation from channeling warp,can be on the God mode...So, chaos gave them "no limit " option, when they revoked it, they became regular psykers...
So there is big difference from psyker and sorcerer on steroids....

Agree, they wouldn't be alive if it weren't for Tzeench....he gave them "unlimted warp" addiction...Silly but term "unclean magic " sounds just right, no matter how stupid it sounds.....

 Harriticus wrote:

Lord knows what was up with Alpharius

The Cabal.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Hmm I think I remember that. I don't think that was intentional though, that's not the Wolf Kings style.

Nor do I think he is a psyker, it's just the way the Emperor made them and their affinity they have with the warp.

Isn't it? He went on to condemn the Thousand Sons for spilling Fenrisian blood, despite the Sons taking the time and effort to incapacitate the Space Wolves nonlethally... In a fight the Space Wolves started, mind you.

Every Primarch is a psyker, whether they utilise that power or not. Magnus is just by far the most pronounced example.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Hmm I think I remember that. I don't think that was intentional though, that's not the Wolf Kings style.

Nor do I think he is a psyker, it's just the way the Emperor made them and their affinity they have with the warp.

Isn't it? He went on to condemn the Thousand Sons for spilling Fenrisian blood, despite the Sons taking the time and effort to incapacitate the Space Wolves nonlethally... In a fight the Space Wolves started, mind you.

Every Primarch is a psyker, whether they utilise that power or not. Magnus is just by far the most pronounced example.

I'm not getting in to a Space Wolves or Thousand Sons pissing competition here as to who done what and who was responsible for starting this or that Both Legions pale in comparison to the Imperial Fists and Emperors Children anyway

What I mean is like you say, he isn't a psyker like Magnus so it wasn't necessarily his intention. He was miffed and got angry, like I do if I stub my toe. The only difference is I don't slay nearby psykers when I let out a whoopsie.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Every Primarch is a psyker, whether they utilise that power or not. Magnus is just by far the most pronounced example.

Not every primarch is a psyker. Some have no connection to the warp like a psyker.

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Not every primarch is a psyker. Some have no connection to the warp like a psyker.

This simply isn't true.

Every human being that isn't possessing the Pariah Gene has a connection to the Warp.

Every Primarch has psychic potential, being at least partially a Warp construct.

Lion El'Jonson, who both distrusted psykers and did not use any psychic abilities, could perceive the Empyrean, something only his Librarians could do.

In Legion, neither Alpharius or Omegon appeared to have any connection to the warp n the way a psyker does.

 thenoobbomb wrote:
In Legion, neither Alpharius or Omegon appeared to have any connection to the warp n the way a psyker does.

Man, what's up with you and Alpharius ?

 thenoobbomb wrote:
In Legion, neither Alpharius or Omegon appeared to have any connection to the warp n the way a psyker does.

But that's just what they want you to think

You can hardly use Alpharius/Omegon as an example, since no-one knows diddly squat about either of them.

The Primarchs were all psykers, or had potential for it. For some it regressed and never got used (Gulliman, Russ, Dorn, Angron) I think most of the Primarchs fall in this category. For others, they had little to no control of it (Curze, Lorgar) And for those like Magnus, or Sanguinius (Did he have visions or am I getting confused with post-heresy BA?) it became one of their main defining features.

He is a member of the rebel alliance and a traitor.

Tibbsy wrote:
The Primarchs were all psykers, or had potential for it. For some it regressed and never got used (Gulliman, Russ, Dorn, Angron) I think most of the Primarchs fall in this category. For others, they had little to no control of it (Curze, Lorgar) And for those like Magnus, or Sanguinius (Did he have visions or am I getting confused with post-heresy BA?) it became one of their main defining features.

Leman Russ is an active psyker, he could emit a psychic howl that forced other psyker's powers to backlash on them, and in one instance killed multiple Thousand Sons with it on Shrike.

Lorgar by showings is the most powerful and most skilled psyker short of Magnus the Red among the Primarchs.

What about Sanguinius? Any hint of it in Fear To Tread?

Sanguinius has visions of the future, much like Curze.

And part of Lorgar's power also seems to be being able to influence others with his voice, ala the Bene Gesserit. This is something that is seen in other Word Bearers (the Word Bearers books have a couple of Dark Apostles that seem to have the same ability). That would make sense why they make such great demagogues and demonancers.

Saruman, more like.

What's up with his mood changes - like he is yelling when offended and then he becomes perfectly calm and "gives too much compliments" (which pissed Guiliman a lot)...
Now is that bad acting or just a part of his persona?

Lorgar has the emotional balance of a 5-year old. He has mood swings and temper tantrums pretty frequently.

His interactions with Guilliman strike me as condescending, though.

On whose part?

Lorgar didn't strike me as condescending. In that particular novel, he comes across as a snickering villain, yet also someone who is fanatically devoted to his new path. Guilliman characterizes Lorgar (pre-Heresy Lorgar, that is) as someone who was meek, and very quick to take offense and assume a slight against him.

Here's another characterization from that book from a Word Bearer who professes to hate his Primarch: "Look at your primarch, Honorius. So singular in aspect. So noble. I have envied you, envied the Imperial Fists, the Luna Wolves, the Iron Hands. And I am not alone. We struggle with a mercurial mind, Honorius. We labour under the burden of a brilliant but fallible commander. We no longer bear the word, my friend. We bear Lorgar.‟

Another Word Bearer notes that Erebus and Kor Phaeron used to be the most powerful adepts in the Legion, but that recently Lorgar has overtaken them, suggesting that he was little more than a figurehead before his illumination.

As for Guilliman, the closest thing to a criticism the book has to offer is this: "He is a high achiever. He knows this about himself. Sometimes it feels like a fault that he has to excuse to his brothers, but then he feels guilty for making excuses. Few of them really trust him, because, he feels, they always wonder what he‟s going to get from any compact or cooperation. Fewer still like him: as friends, he counts only Dorn, Ferrus, Sanguinius and Horus."

So he's so incredibly capable, that he's not very likable. That's his primary flaw. Take that for whatever its worth.

 Manchu wrote:
What about Sanguinius? Any hint of it in Fear To Tread?

Haven't read Fear to Tread.

Aurelian implies it though. He is seen wielding a flaming Force Sword (Similar to the Emprah's I guess).

 Omegus wrote:
Lorgar didn't strike me as condescending. In that particular novel, he comes across as a snickering villain, yet also someone who is fanatically devoted to his new path. Guilliman characterizes Lorgar (pre-Heresy Lorgar, that is) as someone who was meek, and very quick to take offense and assume a slight against him.

Here's another characterization from that book from a Word Bearer who professes to hate his Primarch: "Look at your primarch, Honorius. So singular in aspect. So noble. I have envied you, envied the Imperial Fists, the Luna Wolves, the Iron Hands. And I am not alone. We struggle with a mercurial mind, Honorius. We labour under the burden of a brilliant but fallible commander. We no longer bear the word, my friend. We bear Lorgar.‟

I didn't take this as a character hating his Primarch, they had to bear with him sure and he might not have been like the other Primarchs, but they loved him all the same, he made the Word Bearers what they were. Now they no longer bear the word and they are glad to bear Lorgar as he is something more and he is bringing them to their full glory. Basically bearing Lorgar is a statement of pride.

 Omegus wrote:

Another Word Bearer notes that Erebus and Kor Phaeron used to be the most powerful adepts in the Legion, but that recently Lorgar has overtaken them, suggesting that he was little more than a figurehead before his illumination.

As for Guilliman, the closest thing to a criticism the book has to offer is this: "He is a high achiever. He knows this about himself. Sometimes it feels like a fault that he has to excuse to his brothers, but then he feels guilty for making excuses. Few of them really trust him, because, he feels, they always wonder what he‟s going to get from any compact or cooperation. Fewer still like him: as friends, he counts only Dorn, Ferrus, Sanguinius and Horus."

So he's so incredibly capable, that he's not very likable. That's his primary flaw. Take that for whatever its worth.

Like Perturabo, Mortarion, Curze, the Khan (not by his choice mind you)

Er, I am pretty sure that quote starts off with "For years I have despised our Primarch," lol.

 Manchu wrote:
On whose part?

Lorgar, obviously. Guilliman is a condescending person, but his mannerisms aren't condesending. He's pretty blatant in his perceived superiority over other Primarchs.

 Omegus wrote:
Another Word Bearer notes that Erebus and Kor Phaeron used to be the most powerful adepts in the Legion, but that recently Lorgar has overtaken them, suggesting that he was little more than a figurehead before his illumination.

Adepts?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Er, I am pretty sure that quote starts off with "For years I have despised our Primarch," lol.

Ah well, in that case then ... shut your pie hole!

Seriously though, I'll need to go back and read that again as I can't remember.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Basically bearing Lorgar is a statement of pride.

But is it pride at overcoming the faults of their Primarch instead of pride in their Primarch. I mean, he does say that he envies the Ultramarine.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Basically bearing Lorgar is a statement of pride.

But is it pride at overcoming the faults of their Primarch instead of pride in their Primarch. I mean, he does say that he envies the Ultramarine.

Both I guess as the Word Bearers and Lorgar have changed at this time. After Monarchia they weren't sure of their purpose, which I guess is where they lost their way a bit as well as their faith in Lorgar, but now at this point Lorgar has renewed their purpose and drive, they have a new goal and new Gods to believe in. They might have envied any of the other Legions during Lorgar's seclusion as the other Legions all knew their role in the grander scheme of things.

So your saying Sorot Tchure envied the Ultramarines up until the Word Bearers began worshiping Chaos?

No not necessary, I'm saying after Monarchia.

Even though they hated the Ultramarines for Monarchia they had something that the Bearers didn't have at this point, Clarity of purpose. Everything that the Word Bearers had been doing before this point was now called into question and they started to doubt everything.

That envy disappeared when Lorgar pulled his ass up off the floor and started to lead them again.

Tchure might be an individual case, I guess he was due to his relationship with that Ultramarine, he possibly felt like this for a long time even before Monarchia. But I imagine that the majority of Word Bearers were content to do things the way Lorgar wanted too.

IIRC, the whole point of Sorot Tchure's monologue was the ecstasy of treachery so I guess some badmouthing of one's own Primarch is fitting in the context. I seem to recall the whole thing making Honorius Luciel uncomfortable.

 Manchu wrote:
IIRC, the whole point of Sorot Tchure's monologue was the ecstasy of treachery so I guess some badmouthing of one's own Primarch is fitting in the context. I seem to recall the whole thing making Honorius Luciel uncomfortable.

I think any Legionnaire would feel rather awkward if a fellow Legionnaire from another Legion started saying how good so and so Primarch was and that theirs was a bit of a dick.

In that moment, I think they were standing in for their respective Primarchs. As you know from this thread and the Nine Contradictions one, I think Lorgar has a lot of self-loathing. As for Honorius, Tchure put him in a situation that mirrors another line in the book, one about Guilliman:

Sometimes it feels like a fault that he has to excuse to his brothers, but then he feels guilty for making excuses.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
IIRC, the whole point of Sorot Tchure's monologue was the ecstasy of treachery so I guess some badmouthing of one's own Primarch is fitting in the context. I seem to recall the whole thing making Honorius Luciel uncomfortable.

I think any Legionnaire would feel rather awkward if a fellow Legionnaire from another Legion started saying how good so and so Primarch was and that theirs was a bit of a dick.

It was ; "never seen before" moment...
But if it was IRL,they would probably bitch about their bosses all the time...

 thenoobbomb wrote:
In Legion, neither Alpharius or Omegon appeared to have any connection to the warp n the way a psyker does.

Since Alpharius and Omegon are apparently a single soul in two bodies, that would surely be an extremely obvious example of the primarchs' psychic potential. Even if they never utilised any other powers, the fact that the two of them are apparently a single person as far as the psychics of the Cabal are concerned is some pretty impressive shenanigans.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I didn't take this as a character hating his Primarch, they had to bear with him sure and he might not have been like the other Primarchs, but they loved him all the same, he made the Word Bearers what they were. Now they no longer bear the word and they are glad to bear Lorgar as he is something more and he is bringing them to their full glory. Basically bearing Lorgar is a statement of pride.

Right before that statement, he literally says "I HATE MY PRIMARCH".



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Both I guess as the Word Bearers and Lorgar have changed at this time. After Monarchia they weren't sure of their purpose, which I guess is where they lost their way a bit as well as their faith in Lorgar, but now at this point Lorgar has renewed their purpose and drive, they have a new goal and new Gods to believe in. They might have envied any of the other Legions during Lorgar's seclusion as the other Legions all knew their role in the grander scheme of things.

The quote specifically says he is not the only one. Tchure does say they are finding their purpose at last, but he doesn't seem to relish it in the least. He loathes his Primarch and his new-found purpose, but goes along anyway. Argel Tal is much the same way, he hates Lorgar for what was done to him, but does it out of duty.

 Durza wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
In Legion, neither Alpharius or Omegon appeared to have any connection to the warp n the way a psyker does.

Since Alpharius and Omegon are apparently a single soul in two bodies, that would surely be an extremely obvious example of the primarchs' psychic potential. Even if they never utilised any other powers, the fact that the two of them are apparently a single person as far as the psychics of the Cabal are concerned is some pretty impressive shenanigans.

So if one is dead - what is other? Half-souled ? Or finally whole ?

He's misunderstood in the same way that kid who dressed in drag on the last day of high school was

All the Primarchs were immense Psykers, they were the scions of the most powerful human psyker ever. However due to the Emperor's attempts to keep the Warp's true nature hidden few except Magnus and Lorgar really developed their psychic potential.

^and Sangy

Sanguinius didn't really develop his psychic gifts, they came to him in the form of visions.

If anything, you could argue Mortarion, Corax and Night Haunter are more developed than angel-boy. Corax has that whole invisibility thing, Night Haunter has visions AND invisibility, and according to the new HH book, Mortarion can basically teleport, etc.

WHAT! He can teleport? what book is that in? no spoilers please just the name of the book would do me nice if anyone knows it.

Lorgar is like a little puppy dog that got his nose rubbed in his gak and decided that biting his master's foot was the better way to go instead of learning the lesson.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Omegus wrote:
Sanguinius didn't really develop his psychic gifts, they came to him in the form of visions.

Only because he was in denial about it. The ones that embraced their psychic self.. well, we know how they turned out.

 Omegus wrote:
Sanguinius didn't really develop his psychic gifts, they came to him in the form of visions.

If anything, you could argue Mortarion, Corax and Night Haunter are more developed than angel-boy. Corax has that whole invisibility thing, Night Haunter has visions AND invisibility, and according to the new HH book, Mortarion can basically teleport, etc.

He apparently has enough mastery to wield a Force Sword, but eh.

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
WHAT! He can teleport? what book is that in? no spoilers please just the name of the book would do me nice if anyone knows it.

His tabletop self in the Horus Heresy - Betrayal book, which gives him stats.

 Omegus wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I didn't take this as a character hating his Primarch, they had to bear with him sure and he might not have been like the other Primarchs, but they loved him all the same, he made the Word Bearers what they were. Now they no longer bear the word and they are glad to bear Lorgar as he is something more and he is bringing them to their full glory. Basically bearing Lorgar is a statement of pride.

Right before that statement, he literally says "I HATE MY PRIMARCH".

I have been suitably informed of this

 Omegus wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Both I guess as the Word Bearers and Lorgar have changed at this time. After Monarchia they weren't sure of their purpose, which I guess is where they lost their way a bit as well as their faith in Lorgar, but now at this point Lorgar has renewed their purpose and drive, they have a new goal and new Gods to believe in. They might have envied any of the other Legions during Lorgar's seclusion as the other Legions all knew their role in the grander scheme of things.

The quote specifically says he is not the only one. Tchure does say they are finding their purpose at last, but he doesn't seem to relish it in the least. He loathes his Primarch and his new-found purpose, but goes along anyway. Argel Tal is much the same way, he hates Lorgar for what was done to him, but does it out of duty.

I am not sure though, if he hates his Primarch and the direction that he has and will take them in, why go along with it at all? The Word Bearers culled their own ranks, why wasn't Tchure included? I think I will have to go back to Know no Fear and have a refresh.

 Omegus wrote:
Sanguinius didn't really develop his psychic gifts, they came to him in the form of visions.

If anything, you could argue Mortarion, Corax and Night Haunter are more developed than angel-boy. Corax has that whole invisibility thing, Night Haunter has visions AND invisibility, and according to the new HH book, Mortarion can basically teleport, etc.

I think Sanguinius and Curze foresight was probably about the same, but Curze certainly pained him more, whether this was due to the nature of the revelations or the revelations themselves I don't know. I don't believe he had invisibility though, he just was able to use shadows to accomplish this from his upbringing on Nostramo. Unless this is from ANGEL EXTERMINATUS!!! (evil The Omen music) ...

Mortarion teleporting, now, I have heard this before. It was discussed before as he always seems to be able to step from amongst shadows themselves, is this what you mean Omegus?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
WHAT! He can teleport? what book is that in? no spoilers please just the name of the book would do me nice if anyone knows it.

His tabletop self in the Horus Heresy - Betrayal book, which gives him stats.

Oh, question answered, well that was an anti - climax

 Pilau Rice wrote:

I am not sure though, if he hates his Primarch and the direction that he has and will take them in, why go along with it at all? The Word Bearers culled their own ranks, why wasn't Tchure included? I think I will have to go back to Know no Fear and have a refresh.

Duty, Fanaticism, Faith, take your pick. It's the same reason Argel Tal loathed Lorgar for what happened to him (and Lorgar further made clear that he didn't give to gaks about him beyond as a tool), yet he faithfully served him anyway despite his misgivings (up to and including severing the Gellar field that protected the incubation pods). It's the same reason Word Bearers will walk unquestioning into certain death at their superior's orders. It's the same reason that Lorgar sees the "Truth" of Chaos as a horrid and distasteful thing that will never be willingly accepted by humanity, but propagates it anyway via an unfortunate but necessary (in his eyes) Crusade.

As for the cull, they killed all those from Terra, because their first loyalty was to the Emperor.

 Omegus wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

I am not sure though, if he hates his Primarch and the direction that he has and will take them in, why go along with it at all? The Word Bearers culled their own ranks, why wasn't Tchure included? I think I will have to go back to Know no Fear and have a refresh.

Duty, Fanaticism, Faith, take your pick. It's the same reason Argel Tal loathed Lorgar for what happened to him (and Lorgar further made clear that he didn't give to gaks about him beyond as a tool), yet he faithfully served him anyway despite his misgivings (up to and including severing the Gellar field that protected the incubation pods). It's the same reason Word Bearers will walk unquestioning into certain death at their superior's orders. It's the same reason that Lorgar sees the "Truth" of Chaos as a horrid and distasteful thing that will never be willingly accepted by humanity, but propagates it anyway via an unfortunate but necessary (in his eyes) Crusade.

As for the cull, they killed all those from Terra, because their first loyalty was to the Emperor.

That's a very good reply.

Still going to go and do my research, but I am nearly convinced.

Edit: went away, did have a look and I see your point and it's true to an extent. The difference is that in despite of their misgivings towards Lorgar they began to believe in him again, like I mentioned with the Ultramarines, they now have clarity of purpose. Lorgar is leading them to something better and Tchure proves this by acting on the treachery. If he didn't believe that they were in a new dawn he didn't have to betray what's his face.

Lorgar also knows that the masses will not welcome the Chaos Gods with open arms, due to their nature, but he propagates it, as you say, as it is the truth, in his eyes at least. That the Emperor lied and their are Gods and Demons. You will accept the truth or you will die.

I didn't say he didn't believe in it, but that doesn't mean he particularly likes it. In fact, that distaste only underlines the horror he's about to enact, which lends it all the more potency.

The Word Bearers seem to fall into one of three categories. There is a large segment that are extremely self-serving and power-hungry (Erebus, Kor Phaeron, pretty much any named character in the Word Bearers series, that other high-ranking Word Bearer that shows in Fear to Tread, etc). Another large portion, usually unnamed, are the soldiers of the line that are little different from cultists: fearless and fatalistic fanatics (that's a lot of F's!) with unswerving devotion to their cause. A tiny minority like Tchure and Argel Tal are "human" enough to regret the terrible nature of their actions, but do it anyway out of a sense of duty and/or faith.

Like with most (all?) other Legions, the Primarchs are reflections of their Legions (or the other way around). Lorgar craves acknowledgement and aggrandizement, he has the conviction of a fanatic, and a small part of him recognizes his actions as monstrous, but does them anyway.

He might not like what he has to do, but he welcomes the new sense of purpose that the Lorgar has began to give them or he is starting to feel that way.

And like Lorgar says everything changed after Istvaan, that was the turning point. Even Lorgar recognised what sort of an atrocity it was to turn on his father, but he and his followers went through with it because it was right, in their eyes, to do so.

After that point they weren't following blindly any more.