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 Manchu wrote:
That's not what that book was about.

No, that is what the Emperor's actions were about.

As I already mentioned, Guilliman and Lorgar both wanted more for their legions than just prosecuting war.

This is not a unique concept for them.

At the minimum, Fulgrim and Magnus wanted the same.

But Guilliman understood that war was their raison d'être whereas Lorgar rejected that at a basic level.

Right, like Magnus did, who told Lorgar as much, and if you recall, I said that in my last post.

Unlike Guilliman, Lorgar subverted and ultimately neglected his duties for the sake of religious goals anathema to the Great Crusade. Not only was he not implementing compliance on other worlds; he was undermining the Imperial Truth on worlds where compliance had already been secured.

Which funnily enough the Emperor never seemed to have much of a problem with for the longest time, Lorgar pointed out as much.

And what does that have to do with learning from Guilliman? Do you even remember what your original point was? What was he to learn from Guilliman? "Learn not to worship me like a god and subvert the Imperial Truth"?

MILD SPOILER FROM The First Heretic

In reading The First Heretic (a fine novel, which lamentably inspired me to start collecting and painting for 40k all over again), it seemed to me that Lorgar's strength was his faith, and his tragic flaw is that his faith is blind. The passage where Argel Tal is told that his legion possesses this flaw seems to me to support that reasoning.

He has a great deal if faith in Erebus and Kor Phaeron due to their paternal relationship, and it blinds him to their fairly obvious ambition and deception.

Similarly, he sees the Emperor's divinity but let's it blind him to the Emperor's flaws. The Emperor is most certainly a god by the standards of the 40k universe, but clearly an imperfect one more in keeping with Classical tradition rather than the perfect deity more common to modern Western religion.

So to me, the Lorgar we see in The First Heretic isn't an evil character. He's the sort of character I love. He's making an awful, awful decision because he believes that it is the right thing to do.

99% of people who make awful decisions do so because they believe it's the right thing to do.

 Manchu wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
This might be hard for you to realise, but an entire population's worth of people were killed or rendered homeless for something that was no fault of their own, which doesn't seem like much for 40k, but Logar, unlike his brothers, actually held some amount of empathy for the mortals that were his subjects.

Only one city was destroyed. It's population was removed before that. It is the height of irony to say that Lorgar cared about his subjects in contrast to Guilliman.

The Ultramarines destroyed sixteen cities across the planet, not just Monarchia. Anyone who refused to evacuate the city was butchered, as noted not just in the distress signal that the planet sends to the Word Bearers, but in the scene where someone throws a rock at the newly landed Ultramarines and they open fire on the crowd with their bolters.


It was a pretty brutal act on the part of the Ultramarines.

I've had that shirt for years. Wear it a lot to the gym.



As far as Lorgar goes, no, he wasn't misunderstood. He was mentally weak; obsessed with the acceptance and love of his father. When the Emperor rejected him, he couldn't handle it, and went elsewhere looking for validation. Chaos told him the lies he was looking to hear, and so he embraced them.

Lorgar hated Guilliman because he was jealous of him. Guilliman had everything that Lorgar wanted. He was a masterful general, he was a favorite of (his father) the Emperor. Lorgar's real hatred should have been the Emperor. Guilliman destroyed Monarchia because he was told to, and Guilliman was The Good Son, who did what he was told, and was supposed to. Lorgar's hatred of Guilliman was more of his childish, mentally weak personality coming through.

Honestly, Lorgar was the most pitiful of the Primarchs. The First Heretic was good in that it made you sorta empathize with him. He was desperate for validation, crushed by rejection, and bitter with jealousy. Him falling first to Chaos really makes sense. He was the weakest of his brothers, and Chaos knew that. They knew what he wanted, so they gave it to him.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
That's not what that book was about.

No, that is what the Emperor's actions were about.

Not really.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Unlike Guilliman, Lorgar subverted and ultimately neglected his duties for the sake of religious goals anathema to the Great Crusade. Not only was he not implementing compliance on other worlds; he was undermining the Imperial Truth on worlds where compliance had already been secured.

Which funnily enough the Emperor never seemed to have much of a problem with for the longest time, Lorgar pointed out as much.

And how did the Emperor respond? The truth is, that conversation isn't recorded. What you're referring to is that Lorgar brought it up afterwards, while in denial and on the verge of his spiteful worship of Chaos. It's reasonable that the Emperor intervened because Lorgar was way off the deepend by that point. He took dramatic action because it was warranted.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
And what does that have to do with learning from Guilliman? Do you even remember what your original point was? What was he to learn from Guilliman? "Learn not to worship me like a god and subvert the Imperial Truth"?

Try to keep up. Lorgar was to learn from Gulliman how to pursue the goal of greater meaning for his legion without neglecting his duty to the Great Crusade and the Imperial Truth.

Mindshred wrote:
It was a pretty brutal act on the part of the Ultramarines.

It was only brutal regarding the people in the sense of the material loss. This was a particularly "soft" instance of compliance, remember. Lorgar had not actually brought Monarchia into compliance but rather undermined the Imperial Truth. So like with every other planet in the galaxy, the Imperium gave the people of Monarchia a choice: comply or be destroyed. Those who evacuated the idolater cities were in compliance. Those who refused were devastated along with everyone the legions came across who refused compliance. But Monarchia was peculiar in that the Ultramarines handled it with extraordinary sensitivity, something the populations of almost all other worlds did not get. This was because Lorgar had made a huge mistake and Guilliman was loathe to punish them for his brother's failure. Guilliman evidently thought it was bad enough that the Emperor was punishing Lorgar in this blunt fashion.

Void__Dragon 4 wrote:

The Emperor humiliated him and his entire legion in front of the man Lorgar disliked most (Guilliman), right after destroying one of Lorgar's favorite worlds.

Did he hate Guilliman before that? I don't think there was any evidence. He despaired that he wasn't as favored as Guilliman and never could be, but his rage was being humiliated in front of the brother who had everything he wanted. I think Lorgar was both jealous and envious of Guilliman, but I don't think he disliked him. The hatred that Lorgar developed for Guilliman arose because of his inability to handle rejection and humiliation. Blaming Guilliman for his own failures became an outlet. Lorgar wasn't rational ever again after Monarchia. The rejection of the Emperor, whose validation was the one thing he craved more than anything, broke him, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. Transferring his hatred of the Emperor to Guilliman was how he compensated. Guilliman represented something that was possibly beatable. Something he could lash out at.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
He was the weakest of his brothers, and Chaos knew that.

QFT. He was the "first heretic" for a reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Transferring his hatred of the Emperor to Guilliman was how he compensated.

Again, QFT. The worst tragedy for Lorgar was that even when he turned to worshiping Chaos, I'd bet he still truly believed in the divinity of the Emperor.

Lorgar is prone to fanaticism and to crave validation, a desire to be "the chosen one", all characteristics nurtured by his adoptive father Kor Phaeron, who also just happened to be a Chaos cultist.

You have to remember that as a child he led a Crusade that saw half of the population of his home planet wiped out in religious pogroms. He didn't want to kill those people, but he saw it as absolutely necessary because he was convinced in the truth of his vision. His attitude towards the Heresy was much the same. He saw the truth of the universe in the face of Chaos, and he bought their crap about how they just want to co-exist with humanity, so becomes determined to reveal this truth to the whole galaxy. At one point in Aurellian he decides that since the face of Chaos is so distasteful/horrifying to the uninitiated, a crusade will regrettably have to be the necessary course of action.

 Manchu wrote:
Only one city was destroyed. It's population was removed before that. It is the height of irony to say that Lorgar cared about his subjects in contrast to Guilliman.

As mentioned before, the distress call mentions sixteen cities swept completely clean of life. Many citizens resisted/refused to leave and were put down. That said, the Ultramarines were very gentle in the prosecution of their duties, including one Ultramarine even briefly stopping to answer Cyrene's questions. I don't see many other Legionnaires doing that, much less not killing the upstart human immediately.

That really is the part that people miss, is just how light handed the Ultramarines dealt with Monarchia.

The Ultramarines are who they are for a reason, and they would have done what they were told. But, it's a far cry different than if the Emperor had sent the Space Wolves or the World Eaters to destroy Monarchia.

Very true, I never thought about the Ultramarines being light handed when they glassed 16 cities, but compare them to the Space Wolves and I can see your point Omegus.

Angron would just start killing and burning everything and salting the earth and pissing on the ashes. Russ would follow the plan initially, but would act all belligerent and alpha male, provoking a full scale battle with the Word Bearers. I don't see the Wolf King taking Lorgar swinging at him as gracefully as Guilliman did, for example.

But while I agree, more or less, with VetSarge's characterization of Lorgar's more human failings, before we dismiss Aurellian as a pussy, we must consider that the fanatic is a reflection of his faith. When Lorgar placed his faith in the Emperor, he was human and meek; when he embraced the Primordial Annihilator, he became among the strongest of his brothers.

Yeah, he probably would have just got KTFO, like in his bout with the Lion.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Sometimes it's hard to believe that Horus is the leader of the Heresy

The individual betrayals of the others were only possible and meaningful for that matter because Horus, the favored son, rebelled. No other Primarchs would have rallied around anyone of lesser stature than Horus, who excelled them all in the widest consideration.

Which is true, but who's pulling Horus strings. He says that he is in control and its his rebellion, sometimes it's hard to believe, which is my point.

With everyone going after their own agenda I see your point but because following Horus acheives their goals for the mean time I think they just let him think he's in charge. Plus when he died there was no one respected or strong enough to dominate the rest and I think thats why they all split.

In the books it feels like Eberus (spell fail?) is pulling his strings, at least at the start.

Does Horus ever actually worship Chaos?

He doesn't seem to worship the Chaos Gods no, at least not currently.

In Nemesis, it's possible that he has some contact with them, as he knows what Erebus had been doing, but there could be another explanation for this.

He also sacrifices the remainder of the planet to the Gods for rewards or assistance.

By the end of the Heresy he is their pawn pretty much but whether this is because of him worshiping them or just by corruption we don't know yet.

 Manchu wrote:
Does Horus ever actually worship Chaos?

He indirectly did. He was using Chaos power constantly but always said he was in control of it and the Gods of Chaos were his pawns when by the end of the Heresy the opposite was true. This is a fairly common trap a lot of followers of Chaos fall into, and the Dark Gods probably find this attitude amusing if anything.

By the time he fought the Big-E, all 4 Chaos Gods were simultaneously pouring power into him at a rate that hasn't been seen in a single individual before or since.

From what I've read in the latest book with Horus in "Fear to Tread", Erebus and other word bearer do all the worshipping and rituals, while Horus communicates and makes deals with the demons. So far, Horus remains wise to their manipulations, but as others have said, this won't last for much longer.

 Mr Nobody wrote:
From what I've read in the latest book with Horus in "Fear to Tread", Erebus and other word bearer do all the worshipping and rituals, while Horus communicates and makes deals with the demons. So far, Horus remains wise to their manipulations, but as others have said, this won't last for much longer.

Isn't that how manipulation works though, you think you're in control but it's the other way around.

Horus is convinced that he is, but at the End of Fear to Tread was that reaffirming his authority or where he is starting to feel it slipping through his fingers.

It's hard to know what Horus really wants out of all of this.

 Manchu wrote:
It's hard to know what Horus really wants out of all of this.

I know, it's kinda bad isn't it. All these books in and not a clue yet, other than Horus is afraid that he won't be remembered.

He is a weakling.

He was not happy with the role chosen for his life and he needed something to blindly worship after getting the smackdown by the Emperor.

I think people are forgeting that he was the Emperors loyal subject until he got stabed on Davins moon. Plus we're meant to be talking about Lorgar, I think we've stepped away from the central issue.

Horus is a nice contrast to Lorgar in answering OP's question. Whereas Horus's motivations seem ...cloudy ... Lorgar's are very clear. Others have noted that Lorgar did what he thought was right but I'm not sure that was the case when it came to worshiping Chaos. The more I think about it, the more I think Lorgar still believed in the Emperor's divinity and pledged himself to the Chaos gods in spite. It's sort of like turning from God to worship Satan; it's not that you don't believe that God is God anymore -- but you're trying to spite Him by treating something else with the adoration that is due only to Him.

And then there's the issue of what belief demands. If Lorgar really believed the Emperor was God, why not just follow his commands? Why not just hold his tongue and believe privately? For Lorgar, it's not really about the Emperor. It's all about Lorgar. Lorgar wanted to be the high priest. What use is a god who forbids having high priests? The Emperor had no trouble with Lorgar's private belief. He said he wasn't a god and Lorgar thought that was just more proof that he really was. But what the Emperor could not tolerate was the building of a new church. It ran contrary to Unification, the Great Crusade, and the Imperial Truth.

Whether or not Lorgar was allowed to believe in the divinity of the Emperor was never at issue. The issue was that he could not use the Great Crusade as an excuse to build the Ecclesiarchy. Lorgar is a very self-absorbed character. He doesn't care about his god so much as he cares about himself acting as the head of the religion.

Is therewa quote anywhere where the Emperor said he would allow Lorgar to whorship him Manchu?

No, why would there need to be? If Lorgar had kept it to himself and otherwise acted like the Ultramarines, are you telling me the Emperor would have perforce gotten on his case? In fact, it was only when things got really bad (building churches, etc) that the Emperor stepped in at Monarchia.

I'm confused, how is it known that the Emperor had no problem Lorgar whorshiping him?

It's pretty simple:

(1) If Lorgar had been totally silent about it, how would the Emperor even have known?

(2) The Emperor did in fact know and didn't really care until it started subverting Lorgar's duties vis-a-vis the Great Crusade.

That said, I think you're missing the point. The point isn't that the Emperor didn't mind Lorgar thinking he was a god. Rather, the point is that Lorgar didn't really care about the Emperor being God so much as he wanted to start Lorgar's Church of the Emperor and become Pope Lorgar.

Lol pope Lorgar lol

I understand now, cheers