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 Harriticus wrote:

Lord knows what was up with Alpharius

The Cabal.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Hmm I think I remember that. I don't think that was intentional though, that's not the Wolf Kings style.

Nor do I think he is a psyker, it's just the way the Emperor made them and their affinity they have with the warp.

Isn't it? He went on to condemn the Thousand Sons for spilling Fenrisian blood, despite the Sons taking the time and effort to incapacitate the Space Wolves nonlethally... In a fight the Space Wolves started, mind you.

Every Primarch is a psyker, whether they utilise that power or not. Magnus is just by far the most pronounced example.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Hmm I think I remember that. I don't think that was intentional though, that's not the Wolf Kings style.

Nor do I think he is a psyker, it's just the way the Emperor made them and their affinity they have with the warp.

Isn't it? He went on to condemn the Thousand Sons for spilling Fenrisian blood, despite the Sons taking the time and effort to incapacitate the Space Wolves nonlethally... In a fight the Space Wolves started, mind you.

Every Primarch is a psyker, whether they utilise that power or not. Magnus is just by far the most pronounced example.

I'm not getting in to a Space Wolves or Thousand Sons pissing competition here as to who done what and who was responsible for starting this or that Both Legions pale in comparison to the Imperial Fists and Emperors Children anyway

What I mean is like you say, he isn't a psyker like Magnus so it wasn't necessarily his intention. He was miffed and got angry, like I do if I stub my toe. The only difference is I don't slay nearby psykers when I let out a whoopsie.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Every Primarch is a psyker, whether they utilise that power or not. Magnus is just by far the most pronounced example.

Not every primarch is a psyker. Some have no connection to the warp like a psyker.

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Not every primarch is a psyker. Some have no connection to the warp like a psyker.

This simply isn't true.

Every human being that isn't possessing the Pariah Gene has a connection to the Warp.

Every Primarch has psychic potential, being at least partially a Warp construct.

Lion El'Jonson, who both distrusted psykers and did not use any psychic abilities, could perceive the Empyrean, something only his Librarians could do.

In Legion, neither Alpharius or Omegon appeared to have any connection to the warp n the way a psyker does.

 thenoobbomb wrote:
In Legion, neither Alpharius or Omegon appeared to have any connection to the warp n the way a psyker does.

Man, what's up with you and Alpharius ?

 thenoobbomb wrote:
In Legion, neither Alpharius or Omegon appeared to have any connection to the warp n the way a psyker does.

But that's just what they want you to think

You can hardly use Alpharius/Omegon as an example, since no-one knows diddly squat about either of them.

The Primarchs were all psykers, or had potential for it. For some it regressed and never got used (Gulliman, Russ, Dorn, Angron) I think most of the Primarchs fall in this category. For others, they had little to no control of it (Curze, Lorgar) And for those like Magnus, or Sanguinius (Did he have visions or am I getting confused with post-heresy BA?) it became one of their main defining features.

He is a member of the rebel alliance and a traitor.

Tibbsy wrote:
The Primarchs were all psykers, or had potential for it. For some it regressed and never got used (Gulliman, Russ, Dorn, Angron) I think most of the Primarchs fall in this category. For others, they had little to no control of it (Curze, Lorgar) And for those like Magnus, or Sanguinius (Did he have visions or am I getting confused with post-heresy BA?) it became one of their main defining features.

Leman Russ is an active psyker, he could emit a psychic howl that forced other psyker's powers to backlash on them, and in one instance killed multiple Thousand Sons with it on Shrike.

Lorgar by showings is the most powerful and most skilled psyker short of Magnus the Red among the Primarchs.

What about Sanguinius? Any hint of it in Fear To Tread?

Sanguinius has visions of the future, much like Curze.

And part of Lorgar's power also seems to be being able to influence others with his voice, ala the Bene Gesserit. This is something that is seen in other Word Bearers (the Word Bearers books have a couple of Dark Apostles that seem to have the same ability). That would make sense why they make such great demagogues and demonancers.

Saruman, more like.

What's up with his mood changes - like he is yelling when offended and then he becomes perfectly calm and "gives too much compliments" (which pissed Guiliman a lot)...
Now is that bad acting or just a part of his persona?

Lorgar has the emotional balance of a 5-year old. He has mood swings and temper tantrums pretty frequently.

His interactions with Guilliman strike me as condescending, though.

On whose part?

Lorgar didn't strike me as condescending. In that particular novel, he comes across as a snickering villain, yet also someone who is fanatically devoted to his new path. Guilliman characterizes Lorgar (pre-Heresy Lorgar, that is) as someone who was meek, and very quick to take offense and assume a slight against him.

Here's another characterization from that book from a Word Bearer who professes to hate his Primarch: "Look at your primarch, Honorius. So singular in aspect. So noble. I have envied you, envied the Imperial Fists, the Luna Wolves, the Iron Hands. And I am not alone. We struggle with a mercurial mind, Honorius. We labour under the burden of a brilliant but fallible commander. We no longer bear the word, my friend. We bear Lorgar.‟

Another Word Bearer notes that Erebus and Kor Phaeron used to be the most powerful adepts in the Legion, but that recently Lorgar has overtaken them, suggesting that he was little more than a figurehead before his illumination.

As for Guilliman, the closest thing to a criticism the book has to offer is this: "He is a high achiever. He knows this about himself. Sometimes it feels like a fault that he has to excuse to his brothers, but then he feels guilty for making excuses. Few of them really trust him, because, he feels, they always wonder what he‟s going to get from any compact or cooperation. Fewer still like him: as friends, he counts only Dorn, Ferrus, Sanguinius and Horus."

So he's so incredibly capable, that he's not very likable. That's his primary flaw. Take that for whatever its worth.

 Manchu wrote:
What about Sanguinius? Any hint of it in Fear To Tread?

Haven't read Fear to Tread.

Aurelian implies it though. He is seen wielding a flaming Force Sword (Similar to the Emprah's I guess).

 Omegus wrote:
Lorgar didn't strike me as condescending. In that particular novel, he comes across as a snickering villain, yet also someone who is fanatically devoted to his new path. Guilliman characterizes Lorgar (pre-Heresy Lorgar, that is) as someone who was meek, and very quick to take offense and assume a slight against him.

Here's another characterization from that book from a Word Bearer who professes to hate his Primarch: "Look at your primarch, Honorius. So singular in aspect. So noble. I have envied you, envied the Imperial Fists, the Luna Wolves, the Iron Hands. And I am not alone. We struggle with a mercurial mind, Honorius. We labour under the burden of a brilliant but fallible commander. We no longer bear the word, my friend. We bear Lorgar.‟

I didn't take this as a character hating his Primarch, they had to bear with him sure and he might not have been like the other Primarchs, but they loved him all the same, he made the Word Bearers what they were. Now they no longer bear the word and they are glad to bear Lorgar as he is something more and he is bringing them to their full glory. Basically bearing Lorgar is a statement of pride.

 Omegus wrote:

Another Word Bearer notes that Erebus and Kor Phaeron used to be the most powerful adepts in the Legion, but that recently Lorgar has overtaken them, suggesting that he was little more than a figurehead before his illumination.

As for Guilliman, the closest thing to a criticism the book has to offer is this: "He is a high achiever. He knows this about himself. Sometimes it feels like a fault that he has to excuse to his brothers, but then he feels guilty for making excuses. Few of them really trust him, because, he feels, they always wonder what he‟s going to get from any compact or cooperation. Fewer still like him: as friends, he counts only Dorn, Ferrus, Sanguinius and Horus."

So he's so incredibly capable, that he's not very likable. That's his primary flaw. Take that for whatever its worth.

Like Perturabo, Mortarion, Curze, the Khan (not by his choice mind you)

Er, I am pretty sure that quote starts off with "For years I have despised our Primarch," lol.

 Manchu wrote:
On whose part?

Lorgar, obviously. Guilliman is a condescending person, but his mannerisms aren't condesending. He's pretty blatant in his perceived superiority over other Primarchs.

 Omegus wrote:
Another Word Bearer notes that Erebus and Kor Phaeron used to be the most powerful adepts in the Legion, but that recently Lorgar has overtaken them, suggesting that he was little more than a figurehead before his illumination.

Adepts?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Er, I am pretty sure that quote starts off with "For years I have despised our Primarch," lol.

Ah well, in that case then ... shut your pie hole!

Seriously though, I'll need to go back and read that again as I can't remember.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Basically bearing Lorgar is a statement of pride.

But is it pride at overcoming the faults of their Primarch instead of pride in their Primarch. I mean, he does say that he envies the Ultramarine.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Basically bearing Lorgar is a statement of pride.

But is it pride at overcoming the faults of their Primarch instead of pride in their Primarch. I mean, he does say that he envies the Ultramarine.

Both I guess as the Word Bearers and Lorgar have changed at this time. After Monarchia they weren't sure of their purpose, which I guess is where they lost their way a bit as well as their faith in Lorgar, but now at this point Lorgar has renewed their purpose and drive, they have a new goal and new Gods to believe in. They might have envied any of the other Legions during Lorgar's seclusion as the other Legions all knew their role in the grander scheme of things.

So your saying Sorot Tchure envied the Ultramarines up until the Word Bearers began worshiping Chaos?

No not necessary, I'm saying after Monarchia.

Even though they hated the Ultramarines for Monarchia they had something that the Bearers didn't have at this point, Clarity of purpose. Everything that the Word Bearers had been doing before this point was now called into question and they started to doubt everything.

That envy disappeared when Lorgar pulled his ass up off the floor and started to lead them again.

Tchure might be an individual case, I guess he was due to his relationship with that Ultramarine, he possibly felt like this for a long time even before Monarchia. But I imagine that the majority of Word Bearers were content to do things the way Lorgar wanted too.

IIRC, the whole point of Sorot Tchure's monologue was the ecstasy of treachery so I guess some badmouthing of one's own Primarch is fitting in the context. I seem to recall the whole thing making Honorius Luciel uncomfortable.

 Manchu wrote:
IIRC, the whole point of Sorot Tchure's monologue was the ecstasy of treachery so I guess some badmouthing of one's own Primarch is fitting in the context. I seem to recall the whole thing making Honorius Luciel uncomfortable.

I think any Legionnaire would feel rather awkward if a fellow Legionnaire from another Legion started saying how good so and so Primarch was and that theirs was a bit of a dick.

In that moment, I think they were standing in for their respective Primarchs. As you know from this thread and the Nine Contradictions one, I think Lorgar has a lot of self-loathing. As for Honorius, Tchure put him in a situation that mirrors another line in the book, one about Guilliman:

Sometimes it feels like a fault that he has to excuse to his brothers, but then he feels guilty for making excuses.