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Hello dear loyalists, xenos, heretics and else
I've been re-reading "The first heretic" for a few times and there is a question in my head which the chaos gods ask me the whole time: Was Lorgar really that evil?
Sure, he practically started the heresy but he only wanted to find the truth behind reality and true divinity. What do you think?

At first, not in comparison to some of his more loathsome brothers, like Perturabo or Angron.

But by Aurelian, he is a sinister individual indeed, if still not on the level of the narcissistic sociopath or the frothing berserker.

I think there's evidence in The First Heretic that points to Lorgar being pretty damn ruthless and manipulative. He may have only wanted to discover the truth, but he was more than willing to commit abominable sins in the name of truth seeking.

Like Magnus, Fulgrim, and Horus, I don't think he was doomed to the path of damnation and was a victim of circumstance. He disliked the fact he was a soldier, had a disdain to war, and wanted to create a greater meaning in the Imperium that the Emperor refused.

I don't know if "good" and "evil" are the categories you want to use when discussing any of the primarchs.

 Manchu wrote:
I don't know if "good" and "evil" are the categories you want to use when discussing any of the primarchs.

I heard Leman Russ is good at krumping heads, and Angron is good at chopping them.

Not sure about evil though.

Evil?....not at first but thanks to Kor and Eberus that was soon put right (the first true hertics). As for ruthless I would have to say yes because he wanted to know about the eye of terra and what lay within (divinity) but sent in what's is name and company just in case it was a bad idea to go inside him self.

He was a heretic! Fiery death and damnation for that dark soul.

Lorgar is too stupid to be evil. He wouldn't be held accountable for his own actions in a modern day court of law, he would be declared mentally incompetent.

Lorgar has no thought of his own, he just does what other people tell him to do.

He still aided in the HH, and in some lesser or greater way helped bring about the demise of the emperor.

Just like Fulgrim was sent to feel out other Primarchs loyalties so was Lorgar (can't remember who off the top of my head), he couldn't have been that stupid, though I have to say he did at the start come off at the start as a whinning pussy

(bo ho the nasty Emperor smacked my bottom and distroyed my favourite toy, now I'm going in my room to mope about it for a month, and I'm not talking to anybody!) pussy.

Lorgar was right about the Emperor, he is essentially a God. He makes Lorgars' legion as well as Lorgar kneel through sheer mental force, while communicating through Malcador from half the galaxy away.

To show such power and wrath only cements his opinion that the Emperor is devine, but is unfit to rule because he doesn't accept it.

Obliterating the Holy City also made those wounds raw, and doing in the presence of Guilliman who Lorgar hated IIRC.

The Emperor really knew how to rub it in. I don't think Lorgar is misunderstood, just misplaced. The Emperor should have accepted his Son's belief until such time as he could be persuaded otherwise.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Lorgar is too stupid to be evil. He wouldn't be held accountable for his own actions in a modern day court of law, he would be declared mentally incompetent.

Lorgar has no thought of his own, he just does what other people tell him to do.

Like when he fought Corax to defend his sons, despite Kor Phaeron telling him not to.


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 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
Just like Fulgrim was sent to feel out other Primarchs loyalties so was Lorgar (can't remember who off the top of my head), he couldn't have been that stupid, though I have to say he did at the start come off at the start as a whinning pussy

(bo ho the nasty Emperor smacked my bottom and distroyed my favourite toy, now I'm going in my room to mope about it for a month, and I'm not talking to anybody!) pussy.

The Emperor humiliated him and his entire legion in front of the man Lorgar disliked most (Guilliman), right after destroying one of Lorgar's favorite worlds.

This might be hard for you to realise, but an entire population's worth of people were killed or rendered homeless for something that was no fault of their own, which doesn't seem like much for 40k, but Logar, unlike his brothers, actually held some amount of empathy for the mortals that were his subjects.

Granted, he was very weak-willed and easily manipulated by Kor Phaeron and Erebus, but his anger towards the Emperor was justified.

Didnt they get told to leave the city because it would be destroyed at such a time and the priest was only blinded because she looked back to see the death of her city?

Yeah I agree it was a bit messed up that he made him kneel in fron of old Gill, not the brightest idea the Emperor ever had. Then again I've thought that a few times reading HH, maybe he's not so bright after all.

That's what I've never got about Lorgar is his weak will, I mean he's meant to be a friggin primarch so how come he's lead to and fro by the hand by a mortal that should know jack gak compared to him?

Lorgar isn't a particularly sinister character if you ask me, he's a pretty simple, straight forward, flawed character. I would say that he isn't evil either, he just wants the truth to be told, and that's what ever version of the truth he is telling.

Sometimes it's hard to believe that Horus is the leader of the Heresy because of Lorgars actions. He might go along with it, but he is most certainly pursuing his own goal.

Hell, each of the Primarchs has their own agenda for following Horus. This is one of the differences between the traitors and the loyalist Primarchs.

Lorgar hated being compared to Guilliman in despite of their similarities they are very different characters. In Visions when the Emperor reprimands Lorgar he says look to Guilliman and the Ultramarines, that's what you should be like. It's basically saying I am disappointed in you Lorgar. He's the most human of the Primarchs in the way that he takes everything to heart and I believe that this is also why he was so easily led, he always put his whole self into following something. There was only you are right and everything else is wrong.

Lorgar's story is about love for his father. He thinks that the Emperor is more than the Emperor himself thinks he is.

Loves.
Loves a lot.
Loves an awefull lot.
Loves too much.
Told to back the gak down.
Hates.
Finds someone that likes to be worshipped.

A simple mind in a simple body.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
This might be hard for you to realise, but an entire population's worth of people were killed or rendered homeless for something that was no fault of their own, which doesn't seem like much for 40k, but Logar, unlike his brothers, actually held some amount of empathy for the mortals that were his subjects.

Only one city was destroyed. It's population was removed before that. It is the height of irony to say that Lorgar cared about his subjects in contrast to Guilliman.


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 Pilau Rice wrote:
Sometimes it's hard to believe that Horus is the leader of the Heresy

The individual betrayals of the others were only possible and meaningful for that matter because Horus, the favored son, rebelled. No other Primarchs would have rallied around anyone of lesser stature than Horus, who excelled them all in the widest consideration.

 Manchu wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
This might be hard for you to realise, but an entire population's worth of people were killed or rendered homeless for something that was no fault of their own, which doesn't seem like much for 40k, but Logar, unlike his brothers, actually held some amount of empathy for the mortals that were his subjects.

Only one city was destroyed. It's population was removed before that. It is the height of irony to say that Lorgar cared about his subjects in contrast to Guilliman.


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 Pilau Rice wrote:
Sometimes it's hard to believe that Horus is the leader of the Heresy

The individual betrayals of the others were only possible and meaningful for that matter because Horus, the favored son, rebelled. No other Primarchs would have rallied around anyone of lesser stature than Horus, who excelled them all in the widest consideration.

Why in "contrast to Guilliman"?

Because none of the other Primarchs could hold a candle to Guilliman as far as non-violence. Ultramar is pretty much the least grimdark place in all of the Imperium, even pre-heresy.

Anyway, Lorgar's slowed, literally, like most Primarchs. He spent the first half of TFH bawling, spent the middle being growing a pair, than went back to bawling on Istvaan, I wouldn't say he's misunderstood so much as he's just extremely sensitive and impressionable. Apparently he grows a pair, again, in Aurelian, however.

He needed to grow a pair and man up

Grow a pair and man up?? You should try and get your hands on a copy of Aurelian, if you can. Because that book really brings out Lorgar's badass side.



Also, the audio drama Butcher's Nails features a whole bunch of Manly Lorgar action, including Angron's surprise at Manly Lorgar's manliness.

People calling Lorgar a child are silly, he was among the most mature of the Primarchs and that's precisely why he turned. He sought greater meaning to his existence and to his Legions existence besides killing and more killing.

He wasn't mature, he was a weak-willed man easily manipulated by a couple of traitors.

There was nothing noble about the war he wrought. There is a difference between wanting to know a horrible truth, and enslaving yourself to it. Lorgar chose the latter.

Also, in terms of Aurelian:

 Harriticus wrote:
He sought greater meaning to his existence and to his Legions existence besides killing and more killing.

If this was true, he would have heeded the Emperor's admonition to learn from Guilliman.

Not really, no.

Lorgar and Guilliman were a lot alike in that they both made the worlds they conquered better than they were before, in that regard, they were similar.

The Emperor was just angry that Lorgar's progress through the galaxy was going too slowly.

Like Lorgar, you seem to have missed the Emperor's point. Guilliman was interested in his Astartes being more than warriors. But he did not conceive of this as transcending the Emperor's purposes. His Legion would be the governors of humanity, not the high priests of the Emperor.

The Emperor's only point was that Lorgar should do what he says regardless of his personal feelings.

The Emperor never gave two gaks about the Space Marines being more than soldiers, as long as they were capable soldiers and met his expectations.

Do you have a source to back that massive assumption?

The First Heretic.

What with not really giving a gak about, you know, Lorgar improving the planets he conquered. Magnus supports as much, pointing out that, despite his renovations of many worlds he has conquered, he was still a soldier first, as was Guilliman. Then there is the fact that the Space Wolves were a favored Legion, despite never renovating anything, but rather burned worlds to the ground.

The Emperor did not mind Marines being more than soldiers as long as they still did the whole soldiering part, and similarly, he didn't care if they were soldiers exclusive of all else. He had humans to rule and govern planets. The Space Marines exist to conquer.

On the other hand, what do you believe was the Emperor's "point"?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The First Heretic.

That's not what that book was about.

As I already mentioned, Guilliman and Lorgar both wanted more for their legions than just prosecuting war. But Guilliman understood that war was their raison d'être whereas Lorgar rejected that at a basic level. Unlike Guilliman, Lorgar subverted and ultimately neglected his duties for the sake of religious goals anathema to the Great Crusade. Not only was he not implementing compliance on other worlds; he was undermining the Imperial Truth on worlds where compliance had already been secured.