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The most mature primarch is Vulkan by far, but it was tragic that Lorgar and Magnus fell to the ruinous powers, but in the end they are still heretics and traitors.

 Manchu wrote:


(2) The Emperor did in fact know and didn't really care until it started subverting Lorgar's duties vis-a-vis the Great Crusade.

Or I like to think that as with the other Primarchs when they weren't happy about something they went off to the Emperor. Emperor doing his daddy duties as well as being the Lord of the Imperium had to take heed and try to rectify the situation. The problem with having 20 Sons is that there are 20 times the problems and 20 times the effort to make them all happy,

 Manchu wrote:
. If Lorgar really believed the Emperor was God, why not just follow his commands? Why not just hold his tongue and believe privately? For Lorgar, it's not really about the Emperor. It's all about Lorgar. Lorgar wanted to be the high priest. What use is a god who forbids having high priests?

In the conversation/argument Lorgar had with the Emperor on Monarchia, we are given a hint that this is an argument they've had multiple times. Lorgar believes faith is the most powerful force that can unite and protect humanity (he's right of course in the context of the 40k universe), while the Emperor argued for enlightenment and reason.

I don't get any hint at all from Lorgar's actions or words that his primary motivation is self-aggrandizement.

As for the Emperor finally choosing to make his point about the Word Bearers' practices after overlooking it for so long, it seems he was reaching the next stage of his plan. A good chunk of the universe was pacified, his webway hack was almost complete, and the post-Crusade Imperium began to take shape. Particularly with Remembrancers recording the last stages of the Crusade for mass consumption, the Emperor started reigning in the more outrageous Legions; the Night Lords go renegade roughly around this time after mutliple sanctions, the World Eaters had also been summoned to answer for their excesses shortly before Horus approached Angron, and the overly religious Word Bearers were brought to heel. If Outcast Dead can be considered a valid addition to the tale, the next step could well be the culling of all deviant Legions.

 Omegus wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
. If Lorgar really believed the Emperor was God, why not just follow his commands? Why not just hold his tongue and believe privately? For Lorgar, it's not really about the Emperor. It's all about Lorgar. Lorgar wanted to be the high priest. What use is a god who forbids having high priests?

In the conversation/argument Lorgar had with the Emperor on Monarchia, we are given a hint that this is an argument they've had multiple times. Lorgar believes faith is the most powerful force that can unite and protect humanity (he's right of course in the context of the 40k universe), while the Emperor argued for enlightenment and reason.

I don't get any hint at all from Lorgar's actions or words that his primary motivation is self-aggrandizement.

As for the Emperor finally choosing to make his point about the Word Bearers' practices after overlooking it for so long, it seems he was reaching the next stage of his plan. A good chunk of the universe was pacified, his webway hack was almost complete, and the post-Crusade Imperium began to take shape. Particularly with Remembrancers recording the last stages of the Crusade for mass consumption, the Emperor started reigning in the more outrageous Legions; the Night Lords go renegade roughly around this time after mutliple sanctions, the World Eaters had also been summoned to answer for their excesses shortly before Horus approached Angron, and the overly religious Word Bearers were brought to heel. If Outcast Dead can be considered a valid addition to the tale, the next step could well be the culling of all deviant Legions.

Magnus at Nikaea, well, all Legions at Nikaea that had Librarians, but the Thousand Sons were the Emperors main concern.

I thought about including that example, but the Nikea council was brought together due to the urging of Leman Russ and Mortarion, and it was something the Emperor didn't seem particularly willing to do but went along with it to keep the peace.

I think rather than curtailing an errant Legion, the Nikea ruling mostly just showed what kind of time constraints the Emperor was working under. I saw the decision more like, "Are psykers good? Are psykers bad? I don't have time to deal with this right now, I have a newly-forged galactic Empire to organize. Just stop using all powers to be on the safe side in the meantime, and I'll deal with the issue once I've conquered webway technology."

Of course, there are expectations on the Emprah, so he had to be all bombastic about it to satisfy the prosecution.

I think this was asked above but, why were the Space Wolves (doh!) allowed to keep their rune priests after the council given that they are librarians in a SW's kinda way?

1.Arrogance and Russ(both go in the same sentence)
2.Not all rune priests were offensive psykers, some of them were like shamans (making totems,wards etc.)
3.Their role of "executioners"...

Funny but hypocritism also comes from Emperor and Custodians if they let them be...and the other legions who did use psykic powers...

end here is interesting convesation between two loving friends

 Omegus wrote:
I don't get any hint at all from Lorgar's actions or words that his primary motivation is self-aggrandizement.

I obviously disagree. But I suppose there are two possibilities:

(1) Lorgar does not really believe the Emperor is a god/the God: In this case, Lorgar is free to rebel since he really just wants to build a Church of the Imperium to unite humanity. He knows the Emperor is not really a god, so he doesn't really have any duty to obey.

(2) Lorgar really believes the Emperor is a god/the God: This is more troublesome; how can Lorgar justify disobeying his god? He either thinks he knows better than God or that God secretly wants him to be defiant. Monarchia made it clear that the latter option could not be true.

But either way, Lorgar's actions don't end up being about what the Emperor wants or thinks. In both cases, Lorgar ends up thinking he knows better than the Emperor. And that's basically sedition. Whether Lorgar believes the Emperor is truly divine or not, he's still substituting himself as the High Priest for the Emperor when it comes to actual leadership of humanity.

This leads me to believe that the Emperor's real problem with religion is that it could muddy the chain of command.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Omegus wrote:
I think rather than curtailing an errant Legion, the Nikea ruling mostly just showed what kind of time constraints the Emperor was working under. I saw the decision more like, "Are psykers good? Are psykers bad? I don't have time to deal with this right now, I have a newly-forged galactic Empire to organize. Just stop using all powers to be on the safe side in the meantime, and I'll deal with the issue once I've conquered webway technology."

No, Nikaea was a direct and personal admonition to Magnus. The Emperor was certainly not constrained by the other Primarchs in making this decision. The issue was Magnus and the Thousand Sons -- they were becoming an increasing threat to the Emperor's own plans.

 Omegus wrote:
I thought about including that example, but the Nikea council was brought together due to the urging of Leman Russ and Mortarion, and it was something the Emperor didn't seem particularly willing to do but went along with it to keep the peace.

I think rather than curtailing an errant Legion, the Nikea ruling mostly just showed what kind of time constraints the Emperor was working under. I saw the decision more like, "Are psykers good? Are psykers bad? I don't have time to deal with this right now, I have a newly-forged galactic Empire to organize. Just stop using all powers to be on the safe side in the meantime, and I'll deal with the issue once I've conquered webway technology."

Of course, there are expectations on the Emprah, so he had to be all bombastic about it to satisfy the prosecution.

Come on Omegus, if the Thousand Sons aren't an errant legion I don't know what is. I don't think at any time the Emperor ever told them to go make pacts with warp entities or study the arcane, it all goes against the Imperial Truth of science. They might not have been told before Nikaea, but Magnus was if I recall, directly by the Emperor to not do what they were doing, and Russ and Mortarion certainly bought their concerns to the Emperors attention, but Nikaea was a definite telling off to Magnus, like Monarchia was to Lorgar.

What was the other name for Nikaea, the Trial of Magnus the Red

Thousand Sons were really the only Legion with a legitimate reason to rebel though and there's a true tragedy behind them, I think that's the key difference.

Horus was just tricked by the Chaos powers who used his subconscious jealously
Fulgrim was possessed
Angron was motivated by pure hate
The Emperor just didn't fit Mortarion's own vision
Perturabo was bitter
Lorgar was fanatical and angry over his treatment
Curze is insane
Lord knows what was up with Alpharius

 Harriticus wrote:
Thousand Sons were really the only Legion with a legitimate reason to rebel though and there's a true tragedy behind them, I think that's the key difference.

I would disagree with you, It's only legitimate if you forget that Magnus disobeyed the ruling of Nikaea.

I'm not sure how he expected the Emperor to react. Even if the Emperor actually believed what Magnus message contained, there would still be the huge issue that Magnus blatantly ignored what the Emperor decreed.

Magnus didn't have to side with Horus and I am pretty sure he could have communicated with Russ if he had sucked it up. Imagine what could have been saved if Magnus had just had said ok to Russ and given up, rather than hide, resign himself to his fate and then wuss out again when it got to much for him.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


What was the other name for Nikaea, the Trial of Magnus the Red

Yep - this was only his trial, no matter how generaly official it sounded...

But facts remain - double agents from chaos, played their roles very well....

 Garvy wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


What was the other name for Nikaea, the Trial of Magnus the Red

Yep - this was only his trial, no matter how generaly official it sounded...

But facts remain - double agents from chaos, played their roles very well....

At doing what, convincing the Emperor to make that decision

Converting two legions against each other...IMHO Bjorn (Bear) vs Amon tiped the ruling....

 Garvy wrote:
Converting two legions against each other...IMHO Bjorn vs Amon tiped the ruling....

I don't think they ever liked each other, they were just too different and after Shrike, wasn't much that could salvage their relationship.

Wasn't that out of the way during Nikaea with everything going on down below?

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Garvy wrote:
Converting two legions against each other...IMHO Bjorn vs Amon tiped the ruling....

I don't think they ever liked each other, they were just too different and after Shrike, wasn't much that could salvage their relationship.

Wasn't that out of the way during Nikaea with everything going on down below?

NO

But did he get to pass his report before the ruling was made and did it actually influence the Emperors decision?

Will have a look myself later.

To me, the ruling against Magnus seems a forgone conlcusion with the Cyclops allowed to present a defense mostly as a point of honor.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
But did he get to pass his report before the ruling was made and did it actually influence the Emperors decision?

Will have a look myself later.

There, section ends, so there is that "?" moment..
But bare in mind, Amon told Hawser that he is a TS and used power of a "true name" (malificarum) as a weapon,which comfirmed Russ' suspicion,....Only when Prospero got burned he revealed himself to Hawser as a deamon...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
To me, the ruling against Magnus seems a forgone conlcusion with the Cyclops allowed to present a defense mostly as a point of honor.

And what suprised me - no other PRO librarian primarch spoke im Cyclops defense...only that WS...

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Magnus didn't have to side with Horus and I am pretty sure he could have communicated with Russ if he had sucked it up. Imagine what could have been saved if Magnus had just had said ok to Russ and given up, rather than hide, resign himself to his fate and then wuss out again when it got to much for him.

Leman Russ already made it clear when he spoke to Hawser that this is Magnus's only chance to speak up and go quietly. Leman Russ tried to appeal to Magnus's reason, and in his mind was denied.

Despite the fact that, you know, Magnus never had anything to do with Hawser's condition, so he might as well have been appealing to the reason of a brick wall.

Garvy wrote:
And what suprised me - no other PRO librarian primarch spoke im Cyclops defense...only that WS...

I don't think that should have been that surprising. Despite the fact that psykers were increasingly becoming the backbone of the Imperium, many people were extremely fearful of them (and this was back when memories of the Long Night were fresher, so possibly they were even more prejudiced than now). Even pro-Librarius Primarchs were very wary of what Magnus and his Thousand Sons could do. The Death Guard and Space Wolves weren't the only ones to gak their britches when they saw what the Sons could really do. In Fear to Tread a human asks Sanguinius that if he's an angel, shouldn't there be devils? And he half-jokingly responds, "Have you met my brother Magnus?"

Void__Dragon wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Magnus didn't have to side with Horus and I am pretty sure he could have communicated with Russ if he had sucked it up. Imagine what could have been saved if Magnus had just had said ok to Russ and given up, rather than hide, resign himself to his fate and then wuss out again when it got to much for him.

Leman Russ already made it clear when he spoke to Hawser that this is Magnus's only chance to speak up and go quietly. Leman Russ tried to appeal to Magnus's reason, and in his mind was denied.

Despite the fact that, you know, Magnus never had anything to do with Hawser's condition, so he might as well have been appealing to the reason of a brick wall.

Just like Russ felt that he made every attempt to communicate that he should have, Magnus didn't really have the impetus to think there was any reason in Russ to appeal to. After all, by this point, on Shrike Russ had murdered quite a few Thousand Sons and demonstrated that he was ready to go to war with his brother over a library, much less an Imperial edict.

But the fact remains,TS wouldn't be TS if it weren't for Tzeench - so don't compare regular psykers who skim the warp and sorcerers who swim in it and their primarch dealing with deamons....
I' always wondered what was that creature which pushed Magnus in the warp on his way to warn the Emperor?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Lorgar is too stupid to be evil. He wouldn't be held accountable for his own actions in a modern day court of law, he would be declared mentally incompetent.

Lorgar has no thought of his own, he just does what other people tell him to do.

Like when he fought Corax to defend his sons, despite Kor Phaeron telling him not to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
Just like Fulgrim was sent to feel out other Primarchs loyalties so was Lorgar (can't remember who off the top of my head), he couldn't have been that stupid, though I have to say he did at the start come off at the start as a whinning pussy

(bo ho the nasty Emperor smacked my bottom and distroyed my favourite toy, now I'm going in my room to mope about it for a month, and I'm not talking to anybody!) pussy.

The Emperor humiliated him and his entire legion in front of the man Lorgar disliked most (Guilliman), right after destroying one of Lorgar's favorite worlds.

This might be hard for you to realise, but an entire population's worth of people were killed or rendered homeless for something that was no fault of their own, which doesn't seem like much for 40k, but Logar, unlike his brothers, actually held some amount of empathy for the mortals that were his subjects.

Granted, he was very weak-willed and easily manipulated by Kor Phaeron and Erebus, but his anger towards the Emperor was justified.

His actions during Know No Fear? Pretty firmly cements him in the "evil" category. Mass daemon summonings like they committed require more then just wreaths of flowers and good will.

And here is Russ' offer of surrender so you be the judge who sent him to sanction Magnus



Automatically Appended Next Post:

djones520 wrote:


His actions during Know No Fear? Pretty firmly cements him in the "evil" category. Mass daemon summonings like they committed require more then just wreaths of flowers and good will.

I dont know, but I can't picture Lorgar as an evil guy, ofc he is a traitor (like all traitor primarchs) but I just can't....

I will be reading Know No Fear soon myself, I'll see what I have to think about Lorgar when I do.

 Omegus wrote:
I don't think that should have been that surprising. Despite the fact that psykers were increasingly becoming the backbone of the Imperium, many people were extremely fearful of them (and this was back when memories of the Long Night were fresher, so possibly they were even more prejudiced than now). Even pro-Librarius Primarchs were very wary of what Magnus and his Thousand Sons could do. The Death Guard and Space Wolves weren't the only ones to gak their britches when they saw what the Sons could really do. In Fear to Tread a human asks Sanguinius that if he's an angel, shouldn't there be devils? And he half-jokingly responds, "Have you met my brother Magnus?"

Yeah, I've gotten the impression that the Thousand Sons were one of the more feared (By the Imperium) Legions, due to their sorcery, and the sheer power it brought.

It took IIRC like seven to nine possessed Marines to take a few Custodians, and many of said possessed Marines were killed.

Solitary Thousand Sons captains were capable of killing that many Custodians single-handedly, Phosis T'kar seemed almost bored and disappointedd by how trivial the act was.

Just like Russ felt that he made every attempt to communicate that he should have, Magnus didn't really have the impetus to think there was any reason in Russ to appeal to. After all, by this point, on Shrike Russ had murdered quite a few Thousand Sons and demonstrated that he was ready to go to war with his brother over a library, much less an Imperial edict.

Magnus thinking Leman Russ was an entirely unreasonable being isn't surprising, considering, yeah, he does sort of murder several Thousand Sons unprovoked.

 Garvy wrote:

There, section ends, so there is that "?" moment..
But bare in mind, Amon told Hawser that he is a TS

Spoiler:

‘I am Amon of the Fifteenth Astartes, Captain of the Ninth Fellowship, Equerry to the Primarch.’

and used power of a "true name" (malificarum) as a weapon,which comfirmed Russ' suspicion,....Only when Prospero got burned he revealed himself to Hawser as a deamon...

I am still not sure whether or not the 'Amon' incident affected the decision of the Emperor, after the 'Amon' flees and is chased by Custodes and manages to escape, Russ says it doesn't matter as the ruling has already been made. No mention that this was advised to the Emperor. It certainly created more animosity between the two legions, which I guess was it's goal.

omegus wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Magnus didn't have to side with Horus and I am pretty sure he could have communicated with Russ if he had sucked it up. Imagine what could have been saved if Magnus had just had said ok to Russ and given up, rather than hide, resign himself to his fate and then wuss out again when it got to much for him.

Leman Russ already made it clear when he spoke to Hawser that this is Magnus's only chance to speak up and go quietly. Leman Russ tried to appeal to Magnus's reason, and in his mind was denied.

Despite the fact that, you know, Magnus never had anything to do with Hawser's condition, so he might as well have been appealing to the reason of a brick wall.

Just like Russ felt that he made every attempt to communicate that he should have, Magnus didn't really have the impetus to think there was any reason in Russ to appeal to. After all, by this point, on Shrike Russ had murdered quite a few Thousand Sons and demonstrated that he was ready to go to war with his brother over a library, much less an Imperial edict.

No, my point here is Magnus is a pretty capable psyker. If he had not masked the approach of the Space Wolves and listened out for Russ he could have contacted him when Russ was trying through Hawser, regardless of the fact he was not a Thousand Sons agent. Magnus can travel to one side of the cosmos to the other, he most certainly can listen to a message from his brother in the same section of space.

Magnus still didn't have to side with Chaos and if he did want to make amends rather than martyr himself, then he could have made call a to Russ and actually accepted the punishment that his father had set out for him, rather than the one he assigned to himself that he didn't actually go through with.

 Garvy wrote:
And here is Russ' offer of surrender so you be the judge who sent him to sanction Magnus

Spoiler:

‘That’s not why I’m talking to you now. I’m talking to you because I hope you’ll listen. I’m talking to you as the personal courtesy extended from one brother to another. What is about to happen should not be happening. You know I do not want this. You know it tears my heart to commit against you, and it breaks the very soul of our father to place his sons in opposition. But you have done this. You have brought this. You have brought this action.’
Russ swallowed again. He looked down at the deck, though he was still directing his words at Hawser.
Hawser stood numb, shaking, rooted to the spot.
‘We gave you every chance, Magnus. We indulged your learning, we gave you room to explore. When we became fearful of where those explorations were leading you, and how they might endanger everything we value, we told you of our concerns. The Council at Nikaea, that was supposed to be a moment of reconciliation. You swore you would renounce the cunning arts. You swore! You swore you would abide by our father’s ruling!’
His voice dropped to a whisper.
‘You did not. You have proved your intent to ignore the Ruling of Nikaea beyond all doubt. So this is on you. You must have known our father’s hands would be tied. He would have no other option than to turn to me to issue sanction.’

Which is backing up my thoughts that if Magnus had said, I'll come quietly and admit my sins, Russ would have accepted. He still loves his brother, but he loves his father more. Unless, he knew that Hawser wasn't a Thousand Sons agent and this was for show just so that he could look like the bigger man.

A lot of what ifs really as we know how it went down.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Magnus thinking Leman Russ was an entirely unreasonable being isn't surprising, considering, yeah, he does sort of murder several Thousand Sons unprovoked.

Several? I only thought it was one on Shrike and it was a mutant, Russ done the Thousand Son a favour.

Leman Russ killed several Thousand Sons with his psychic howl.

How ironic, that a man whom so fervently hates psykers is himself a very powerful one.

Every legion,with Tzeench holding of mutation from channeling warp,can be on the God mode...So, chaos gave them "no limit " option, when they revoked it, they became regular psykers...
So there is big difference from psyker and sorcerer on steroids....

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Leman Russ killed several Thousand Sons with his psychic howl.

How ironic, that a man whom so fervently hates psykers is himself a very powerful one.

Hmm I think I remember that. I don't think that was intentional though, that's not the Wolf Kings style.

Nor do I think he is a psyker, it's just the way the Emperor made them and their affinity they have with the warp.

 DarthMarko wrote:
Every legion,with Tzeench holding of mutation from channeling warp,can be on the God mode...So, chaos gave them "no limit " option, when they revoked it, they became regular psykers...
So there is big difference from psyker and sorcerer on steroids....

Agree, they wouldn't be alive if it weren't for Tzeench....he gave them "unlimted warp" addiction...Silly but term "unclean magic " sounds just right, no matter how stupid it sounds.....