So, one of the players at my FLGS has been taking a break from his GK army to play with his leafblower guard again. I've yet to face off against him, but I've been thinking about what I'm going to do when eventually I do. Back in 5th, foot and mech guard were roughly equal in power, and how to handle the situation was obvious. Now neither of these statements are true anymore.

I've been thinking about a lot of things, but haven't come up with an obvious answer.

- Firstly, HWSs are going to be a bust. A chimera is cheaper than an HWS, and causes instant death with their multilasers. Throw in some heavy bolter shots, and morale becomes a serious problem in a hurry as well. Plus, as said, HWSs are more expensive, and not even good enough. 3x autocannons, on average, puts down a glance a turn against the chimera, and the chimera is going to be able to kill or drive off that HWS before then.

- Melta stormies are usually pretty good, but against AV12 spam? Seems like they'd drop in, ace a manticore or a russ, or some other high-profile target, and then have a dozen other vehicles shoot/heavy flamer them to death instantly. They're certainly not going to do the job on their own, and, like the HWS, they're just going to be wasted attacking chimeras.

- Other vehicles. I'm a big fan of taking a foot list and blending a couple of HS choices in, but I'm a bit leery here. If I'm just showing up with a couple of medusas/basilisks/colosusses, it seems like the saturation is going to be poor enough against a mech gunline that they're just going to get blown up right away. The closest thing I can think of to make this work is a foot list that has three demolishers in it, as they've got the firepower to actually explode chimeras, allowing them time to kill more than one chimera per game if they survive. Still... 165 points to beat up on 55 point chimeras...

And yes, you could throw in a bunch of your own vehicles in, or a bunch of vendettas in, but then you're not really playing a foot list anymore.

The best thing I can think of at the moment is throwing a bunch of lascannon PISs around, but this doesn't seem like a great solution, honestly. the requisite 4 are going to be good enough to handle a chimera every other turn or so, but it's still not great.

My first thoughts are:

Aegis line with your choice of weapon. I know you hate the AC, but I like the rate of fire.
Plus, it kind of keeps well with the foot IG.

Marbo. No more to say really.

I like the idea of 3 ST sqds, min/maxed with 2 Melta sqds and 1 Plasma sqd.

I like the idea of Artillery over HWS. At least Artillery may last longer hidden until
you have to direct fire.

Let us know how it goes!

Yeah, but marbo's only doing a one-shot as well. I think I'd rather have melta stormies for the multi-shot Ap1.

Likewise, that's the problem with the aegis. It's expensive, and I can only take one. Could I take several pieces of foot-borne artillery I might consider it, but as it is...

Something else I'm reconsidering is manticores. They're not going to blow up anything, but they're able to throw down glances on several vehicles simultaneously. The main problem I have with this is that the only other thing they're going to be good at is hordes, and I already think I rather have that covered with my own horde.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, but marbo's only doing a one-shot as well. I think I'd rather have melta stormies for the multi-shot Ap1.

Likewise, that's the problem with the aegis. It's expensive, and I can only take one. Could I take several pieces of foot-borne artillery I might consider it, but as it is...

Something else I'm reconsidering is manticores. They're not going to blow up anything, but they're able to throw down glances on several vehicles simultaneously. The main problem I have with this is that the only other thing they're going to be good at is hordes, and I already think I rather have that covered with my own horde.

Ignoring the fact that Manticores really shouldn't even really be deployed on a 40k battlefield due to such short ranges (fluff-wise), they're without a doubt your best bet against Chimera spam, plus they will liquefy the teensy 10 man units that come out from the wreckage!

Manticores are great at messing up vehicles, but to be honest I think they're pretty great against even non-horde armies. At Str10, they are causing instant death to a lot of models. Even the venerable Plague Marine loses his FNP. Yeah you might not kill as many, but with D3 large blasts you're bound to get enough wounds to make Paladins start sweating a bit.

Alternatively, look at Sentinels with Lascannons. Armored gives AV12, but the lighter-armored ones have Scout so you can have all of that Outflanking from Scout goodness. I'd also be curious to see how a Devil Dog with its melta blast cannon would fare.

All I can think are lascannon HWTs inside infantry squads/ vet squads. That will let you get a lot of Heavy Weapons on the table while also getting lots of bodies.

Medusas might be the answer. Throw them behind an Aegis, give them Breacher shells and pop tanks on every shot. Could add on camo netting for an improved cover save as well, if you really wanted to.

An Aegis line with no guns (~one squad in points IIRC) with some squad-borne Lascannons and some medusas/demolishers would work alright.

Or you could just run a DKoK list and take that foot artillery you've always wanted.

Leafblower is not what I would fear as foot guard.

I would fear this. Armored fist guard. With an aegis defence line thrown in for good measure.

Thats roughly 9 or so chimeras hiding behind that aegis, with 2 Medusae with camo netting. Without a doubt, the most hilariously frustrating game I have ever played, for both players (great guy though, lots of fun to play against). I couldn't knock him off his objectives without giving up killpoints (as it was a tourney and killpoints was the main objective) but he couldn't leave his line or else he'd take approximately 9 lascannons, 18 autocannons, and 3 leman russes to the face. So, I sat there all game at 37" and shot him.

After what I learned from that, I can't see any leafblower/armored fists player not taking an aegis. That much AV12 is just rediculous to try and kill when literally half your shots are eaten by cover saves. Throw in a likely 2+ save thanks to nightfighting, and the fact that if his transports pop, he can just have the survivors to ground, means it's an insanely tough list.

With that, the quite literally worst case scenario, in mind, I'll take what I learned into account. Marbo, regardless of him being a one shot, is incredibly helpful. He popped up, killed 2 chimeras with his demo charge, and knocked a HP off of 2 others with a single demo charge. The fact that he has to be removed or else he can wreck havoc doesn't hurt. Stormtroopers will kill a transport, but the likelyhood of them getting annihilated the turn after is pretty high. If you can figure out a way to keep them alive (for example, deepstriking them in near the edge of a formation of tanks so only a few can draw line of sight) you might be able to keep em alive another turn, but I don't see a clever opponent letting that happen.

Other helpful things will be things like manticores, deathstrikes, or even basilisks or the other artillery pieces. They'll ignore the aegis, and while probably not going to one shot those chimeras, will be hitting them on AV 10 and shaving HP off like crazy (in the case of the manticore, autopenning them)

Simply put, you're going to have to throw literally everything and the kitchen sink at him. If it's S6 or higher, it needs to be shot at something (s4 if you can get side arc) I was even having my stormtroopers chucking krak grenades alongside the meltagunners, I was that desperate. Other than mass heavy weapons fire, artillery, and deepstrikers, the only other idea I've got is maybe going second, and taking advantage of the fact that he has to disembark to take objectives. Then you try to kill them while they're in the open. But I'm not really confident with that plan either.

So yeah, I'm still figuring out how to deal with it as well.

I would say go with heavy weapon teams in infantry squads and a gunline. I run a fairly decent gunline and my opponent this past week ran a leafblower list. My heavy weapons teams did great with their orders and my opponents chimeras didnt get close enough for his vets to even rapid fire. He ran 2 basilisks and a manticore for heavy support which was annoying but my battle tanks flanked and took them out. by the end i managed a guard victory!

I would say go with the heavy weapons teams in infantry squads and get a aegis defense line. you can go to ground and save troops and then roll with 2 CCS so you can order get back in the fight so they can get back up and shoot!(if im correct) Regimental standards will also help your trrops from running back.

My lord commissar manning the quad gun with an infantry squad dropped a chimera a turn which was outstanding!

Twin linking the heavy weapons teams and trying to get side shots anytime a unit can is basically how i won. He lost 3 chimeras turn 1 and it just halted his whole column as each turn my teams just fired away.

Do you know if your opponent is brining Heavy support, especially artillary? Because that would be the biggest threat too me using gunline but as you run stormies as i assume you could take care of them turn 2.

MrMoustaffa-I have not played against a guard player thats done this but ive read about it on here and its nasty. I dont think I would want to play aginst that. If most of those were vets and they added lascannons or autocannons thats just a huge threat. Ive hid 3 LRBT behind the defence line before against necrons and i was surprised when at the end of turn 4(game ended due to time) all 3 were still alive and only 1 lost a hull point. and each turn they took heavy fire but the cover just proved to good! The defence line and any HS with camo netting is really hard to deal with and is a huge problem if its got its sights on an objective.

 Ailaros wrote:
I'm a big fan of taking a foot list and blending a couple of HS choices in, but I'm a bit leery here. If I'm just showing up with a couple of medusas/basilisks/colosusses, it seems like the saturation is going to be poor enough against a mech gunline that they're just going to get blown up right away.

This is going to be your biggest problem. In all-mech IG Medusas can be awesome, they're a glass cannon but they're sitting next to a bunch of other AV 12 vehicles full of melta/plasma, and your opponent doesn't really have any good options for target priority. On the other hand if you just add 2-3 vehicles, even with AV 14, to an all-foot list you don't really have that kind of saturation. The rest of your list is weak against Chimera spam (as you said), so that makes your opponent's target priority very easy: focus everything on the few anti-Chimera threats and remove them, then move on to cleaning up the rest of your list.

So, what you have to ask yourself here is whether it's worth it to accept the drawbacks of a hybrid list in exchange for improving your anti-Chimera firepower for a turn or two, or would it be better to keep the all-foot strategy to bring, say, more of your SITNW conscripts and focus on winning the objective game while those Chimeras fail utterly at dealing with respawning conscript blobs.

Or you could just run a DKoK list and take that foot artillery you've always wanted.

Of course if you abuse it you're going to have a hard time finding anyone to play against. A single Earthshaker isn't so bad, but if you spam nine of them (with heavy mortars in your elite slots) your opponents are going to be justifiably annoyed that you're exploiting a broken* unit.


*The Earthshaker guns used to be fragile and completely immobile (can't even pivot to shoot new targets) and it was a reasonable question whether you take the cheap fixed gun or the more expensive but more effective Basilisk. Then the new 6th edition artillery rules arrived and effectively turned them into dirt cheap MCs with tons of cheap extra wounds and 360* firing arcs, but didn't change the point costs to reflect this upgrade. It's something that will inevitably be fixed eventually, so spamming them is just taking advantage of GW's slow update cycle.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Manticores are great at messing up vehicles, but to be honest I think they're pretty great against even non-horde armies. At Str10, they are causing instant death to a lot of models. Even the venerable Plague Marine loses his FNP. Yeah you might not kill as many, but with D3 large blasts you're bound to get enough wounds to make Paladins start sweating a bit.

Meh, not really. A missile hits 5 paladins. Let's say it wounds 4 of them. The squad passes 4 2+ saves. No problems. The longer I go in this codex, the colder I get on this unit, especially now since 6th ed made it much tougher to wreck vehicles outright with Ap4.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Alternatively, look at Sentinels with Lascannons. Armored gives AV12, but the lighter-armored ones have Scout so you can have all of that Outflanking from Scout goodness. I'd also be curious to see how a Devil Dog with its melta blast cannon would fare.

Yeah, I've actually been pondering non-vendetta FA options recently, even running a pair of lascannon scout sentinels in a recent game. My basic verdict on them at the moment is that they're virtually identical to melta stormies, except they do less damage, but at less risk (they'll likely have SOMETHING to shoot at, regardless of what side of the board they arrive on, but a mishapped stormie squad is a mishapped stormie squad). In this case, I'm not quite sure that I'm sold, for the same reason as melta stormies. You spend 100 points to show up, blast a 50 point transport, and then get blown off the board yourself. If only they could still charge the turn they arrived...

As for the devil dog, I made a serious attempt to not loathe it, but ultimately failed. In short, on turn 1, they get a lascannon shot (S8 Ap1 outside of melta range having the same chance to wreck AV12 as a S9 Ap2 shot), then on turn 2, they get one melta shot. Compare that to melta stormies which do nothing on turn 1, and get 2 melta shots likely on turn 2 (without getting shot at first), or compare it to the lascannon sentinels which does nothing turn 1, and likely 2 lascannon shots turn 2 (also without getting shot at first), and it's tough for me to like the devil dog, especially when you consider that the devil dog is much, much more likely to be shooting at front armor than the other two options, and stormies can even get linebreaker to boot.

Happygrunt wrote:Medusas might be the answer.

I may take another look at the BB medusa, though. I took it briefly, but dropped it because it can't shoot at fliers. Now that I'm no longer so concerned about that, I might well give them a try again. What's better than a demolisher cannon? A longer ranged melta demolisher cannon!

Of course, the problem with the medusa has always been that it's only a REALLY good anti-vehicle unit with BBs, but it's pretty worthless against non-vehicles when you take it, though...

MrMoustaffa wrote:

Spoiler:

Forgive my army, I'm still settling on a paint scheme, hence a large amount of unpainted models

Thats roughly 9 or so chimeras hiding behind that aegis

Yeah, that's more what I'm talking about. Just too many vehicles to handle.

Your picture is really interesting, though, because it does point out a pretty glaring weakness, at least of this kind of deployment - outflanking. Al'Rahem, for example, could do some pretty brutal stuff to this list, even without being able to charge in off of the board edge with S4 frag grenades anymore. As you mention, in that kind of a parking lot, it's going to be pretty easy to get some cover saves.

And that's interesting, because when I've come across gunlines like this, they tend to deploy more like:



... precisely to avoid outflankers. I wonder if the existence of aegis lines is making people deploy more in corners.

Actually, now that I see this picture, I have no idea how I'd beat it in 6th ed. If I'm taking my 2x conscript squads at 1500 points, that's only leaving about 500 points worth of stuff for support units. I don't even know what I'd do here.

Peregrine wrote:So, what you have to ask yourself here is whether it's worth it to accept the drawbacks of a hybrid list in exchange for improving your anti-Chimera firepower for a turn or two, or would it be better to keep the all-foot strategy to bring, say, more of your SITNW conscripts and focus on winning the objective game while those Chimeras fail utterly at dealing with respawning conscript blobs.

... hmm. You suggest doubling down? My local escalation league is going up to 1000 points very soon, and my initial instinct is to finish off the core of my troops. That's my CCS, an infantry platoon with chenkov, 2x melta/las PISs, one squad of SiTNW conscripts, and then a second platoon that's a copy of the first without chenkov.

The problem is that this comes in at roughly 900 points. A great, solid core, sure, but it's leaving me very scarce on offensive power, as it's basically just 7 lascannons, 4 meltaguns, and a LOT of lasgun fire.

At some point, I've got to be able to knock my opponents off of objectives, or else every game is going to be a draw with my unkillable conscripts against his chimera wall which I'm incapable of hurting. Well, no, it will probably end in a lot of losses, as I'm not very likely to get first blood.

 Ailaros wrote:
The problem is that this comes in at roughly 900 points. A great, solid core, sure, but it's leaving me very scarce on offensive power, as it's basically just 7 lascannons, 4 meltaguns, and a LOT of lasgun fire.

Hm. I'm not sure what you can do at that low a point level, the only way to get enough anti-tank weapons to take on Chimera spam at 1000 points is to do mech vets yourself. So you're kind of trapped between two unappealing options:

1) Bring a hybrid list and be mediocre at doing two things (area control foot blobs and melta/plasma delivery tanks/vets), which leaves you vulnerable to your opponent focusing on the one relevant half and wiping it out.

or

2) Throw everything into doing what you're already good at and attempt to win the game on your own terms, which leaves you vulnerable to stalemates where you don't have enough strength to get into midfield and claim enough objectives to break the draw.

The only other alternative I can think of is to go heavy on the Vendettas and/or Vultures and hope that 1000 points isn't enough to remove a couple outflanking Vendettas before they blow up the Chimera wall with lascannons (or punisher cannons!) into side armor.

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On second thought you could keep the all-foot theme and bring Hades drills! All the damage is done when it arrives, so you don't need to worry about AV 12 saturation to ensure your delivery method survives, and a squad of melta/plasma vets deploying right into the remains of the Chimera castle is going to do a lot of damage (and maybe even survive to claim an objective). And don't forget that they have explicit permission to charge once they arrive, which overrules the "no assault out of reserve" rule and lets you deliver 10x melta bombs if the guns don't get the job done.

And since they're cheap and you aren't dumping tons of points into tanks with your list you can bring 2-3 of them and still keep a good foot blob presence on your "home" objectives.

Creed + 3 Demolisher Squadron.
Infiltrate (not outflank) lets you move 12" before the game starts.
Move up 6 and unload. You should be dropping that S10 AP2 ordnance all over his parking lot.

-Matt

Get your normal hydra battery and don't forget to leave the wrecked vehicles on the board. With luck and turn 1 you have the chance to trap him in his own parking lot.

AV 12 spam can be a real pain and the mobility makes it difficult to out maneuver with foot guard. Gun lines with lots of orders, aegis fort, and HWS to your flavor can put the hurt down just don't forget that you can go to ground then order the unit to get back in the fight next turn and they will fire like normal. You will be going against his 4++ AV12 but he will have to deal with 2++ which will even the odds out a bit.

Death Korps is pretty cool but are they even still legal seeing how 5ed codex should have replaced them...or is there a more recent DKoK rule set out there?

 ansacs wrote:
Get your normal hydra battery and don't forget to leave the wrecked vehicles on the board. With luck and turn 1 you have the chance to trap him in his own parking lot.

How exactly is a Hydra going to work here? Or did you forget that Hydras can only snap fire at Chimeras?

Death Korps is pretty cool but are they even still legal seeing how 5ed codex should have replaced them...or is there a more recent DKoK rule set out there?

The IA5 list was updated for 5th edition in a pdf, and if you use the other 6th edition update pdfs (hull points, heavy artillery) and a little sense about applying IG FAQs to DKoK the list works just fine in 6th rules-wise.

Is this not a job for Al'rahem? Seems like a smaller platoon filled with melta guns might do the job nicely.

What about just add krak grenades to the infantry platoons?

Then move across the table and assault his parking lot.

I know that's been the biggest change for me playing mech guard is that I can't let anything with krak grenades get near any chimeras anymore. Guard armies can spam cheap krak grenades better than anybody.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
What about just add krak grenades to the infantry platoons?

Then move across the table and assault his parking lot.

I know that's been the biggest change for me playing mech guard is that I can't let anything with krak grenades get near any chimeras anymore. Guard armies can spam cheap krak grenades better than anybody.

How is he going to get there? PIS are not the most survivable lot once outside of cover.

How is he going to get there?

http://www.ailarian.com/folera/batreps/index.html

Looks like he typically does it through a combination of running forward in a dispersed formation and outflanking.

Yeah, that's the problem. I don't know how a PIS is going to manage to make it across an entire table worth of multilaser and heavy bolter fire, only to eat heavy flamers once I get close and then deal with overwatching vets once I try and assault the transport. This idea may have worked against parking lots in 5th, but I fail to see how now.

That said, I'm not that worried about the mobility thing. Getting into charge range with PISs is going to be very tough, but getting within 18" of chimeras with meltaguns isn't. Plus, defensively, the melta hedge is still very much alive.

My biggest problem with the creed+demolisher thing (other than the fact that it costs a LOT) is that it's still just one unit, so it can still only target one thing at a time. It seems like I'd be relying a lot on exactly the right kind of poor scattering to be able to break open other targets.

You know what i would do at this low points level? Screw the second platoon. One wave of conscripts is plenty for your objective needs at such a low level. For your second troops, take a cheap vet squad (maybe even harker vets with plasma) and then i'd get a few russes. Notice I didn't say one. I said multiple ones. You'll have enough infantry to hold the line, and a chimera wall isn't exactly running at you turn one. Maybe an exterminator, and a couple of regular russes or some other mix between the two. Put your tanks behind your infantry, and he has to come to you to kill them. If he does that, your infantry with meltaguns and heavy weapons will tear him a new one, and thats if he even makes it through the Leman Russes firepower. I've run an exterminator and a regular russ before in 1,000pts games and it's really hard for people to take out that much AV 14 when you've bubble wrapped the tanks with infantry.

And yes, normal russes arent exactly anti tank monsters, but there's a key reason why you would take them. They'll rarely miss, since you only need part of the template on a vehicle to hit it. They've got S8 ordnance to get through that armor to pretty much guarantee a hp is coming off. And finally, it really punishes your opponent if he castles up. Now your russ goes from dinging an hp from one chimera to possibly 2 or 3. you basically force him to spread out, screwing over his force concentration. as for exterminators, well, we know what they do to light armor already

At least, thats what I'd see myself doing.

Why not take some allies? Have your foot guard supported by some foot slogging marines, C:SM, BA and SW all give your list some options, while still not taking any tanks or other kinds of vehicles. C:SM, Take Sicarus and a Tactical Squad, and hand out a special rule to the squad that is useful that match(IE Tank Hunters, Scout, Infiltrate), and/or take Devastators, nothing says bye bye AV12 like Missile Launchers and Las Cannons.

BA, take Assault Marines with a cheap JJ hero, and maybe a Priest to give them FNP, or take Dante and a squad of Sanguinary Guard with a Priest(2+ Armor, FNP and with Dante the squad doesn't scatter, can be armed with Melta Pistols, Dante gets one as part of his gear), I am thinking this will be a huge thorn in his side as it will take a good deal of fire to kill this squad, just hide Dante and Priest, Scatter Lasers and Heavy Bolters will bounce. For more trouble simply bring more.

SW, this books gives you lots of options for dealing with armor, Wolf Scouts(one squad can show up behind them), Wolf Guard Combi Spam, Grey Hunters with Two Plasma or Melta Guns, Long Fangs(like Devastators but can fire at more than one target and get an extra heavy weapon), Thunder Wolf Cav.

MrMoustaffa wrote:You know what i would do at this low points level? Screw the second platoon. One wave of conscripts is plenty for your objective needs at such a low level. For your second troops, take a cheap vet squad (maybe even harker vets with plasma) and then i'd get a few russes.

Yeah, I've been considering doing that to lighten up points. The 2+ harker of doom squad costs 190 points, does free up a bunch. The question, though, is when to switch over to adding the second platoon back in.

With how I'm currently arranging things, that's leaving me with a bit over 200 points left in a 1000 point game, and, assuming the second platoon goes in and harker goes out, 500 points in a 1500 point game. I guess at 1500 we're talking about eeking in 3 165 point units, but what about at 1,000? Just one of said units and some other upgrades?

It's been too long since I've played at 1,000 points, I'm feeling like I'm having a hard time judging what kinds of threats I'm going to come across.

Garuss Acine wrote:Why not take some allies?

I'm sure there are some great options, but I'd kind of like to find a solution in-codex. Not everybody has the disposition or the models for allies.

I'd plop your own aegis at mid field then buy a camo-cloak lord commissar and attatch him to some ogryns and move them up the table. Ogryn with a 3+ cover save minimum should be able to move up the field against the chimera hedge, and all of those high strength multi charging attacks should decimate ths chimera wall. As long as you know the chimera player isnt' fielding manticores, if he is, probably won't work.

Do barrage weapons hit side armour? I forget. If they do, then just load up on mortars and hide them behind objects Enough of them should ruin a chimera's day, especially if your opponent clusters up as you might get multiple vehicle hits at full strength. Also they're cheap and can't be gotten at easily.

Alternatively, what about using a couple of CCSs with MOOs. Basilisks without the vehicles Also ideal for hitting large parking-lot type targets.

This might be a situation where Special weapon teams are worth using. You can get a special weapon squad with 2 meltas and a demo charge for close to the same price as a naked vet squad. If you run 4 of them and Marbo that's 5 demo charges that can be flung. If you want to make them a less appealing target run them with only 1 demo charge and keep them in cover as much as possible. If you run them on conjuction with the storm troopers you will at least give your opponent a dilema when it comes to target priority. Go ahead and use heavy weapon squads and lascannons in your infantry squads and some of them may just live long enough to kill something.


I know you want to do all foot but what I enjoy doing with them is taking three special weapon squads with 2 demo charges and either a plasma or melta gun and droping them out of valkaries. They drop in, throw their charges and then they are just dangerous enough that they can do a bit of damage if they are ignored and not dangerous enough to be a main threat so they cause some frustration in the backfield.

Also, what about trying out Mortars on your HWT's? Since they are barrage they hit on side armor. Sure, that means they need 6's to glance but they ingore cover and can sit out of line of site so as not to get shot at while chucking blast markers at the parking lot. If he bunches his Chimeras up then even if you scatter you still stand a decent chance of hitting 1-2 of them. Throw in a Master of Ordanance for good measure and watch him try to close with you and hop out of those steel boxes of death ASAP!

If you add a Captain Al' Rahem to a platoon with 2 SWS they can outflank to chuck three charges each. You can equip the 2 manadatory squads krak grenades and a melta/plasma as well for added punch. Throw a Commissar with power fist in the comand sqad with 4 mela/plasa guns and you have a tank killing beast. Might be a nice little supprise to loose a whole flank of vehicles. Granted Al'Rahem and his platoon are usualy best deployed in Chimeras but you could do it on foot and he may work as well.

Use your storm troopers to pop transports, have LRBT then blast the troops that survive, that should make your storm troopers a threat as your blob runs up the field. Might be a bit of points but it isnt a bad strategy, only problem is hopefully your templates dont scatter into your own troops but aside from heavy weapons teams not much i can think of.

 Ailaros wrote:
It's been too long since I've played at 1,000 points, I'm feeling like I'm having a hard time judging what kinds of threats I'm going to come across.

This is the real problem, at only 1000 points you don't have the ability to split your list between different counter tactics. There's always going to be a pure spam list that you're vulnerable to, and at some point you have to just concede that you're not going to be able to fight that spam effectively without compromising the primary plan of your list. So you either stick with the primary plan and hope to complete your own goals and win (objective camping, etc) or dump the entire primary plan and go with something different (mech IG of your own).

Of course if you have access to FW models then things get a lot easier, and you can run a mix of Medusa guns (the artillery, not the tank), heavy mortars, and platoons with Sabre guns to form a foot blob and hold your "home" objectives, while melta/plasma veteran squads with Hades drills attack the Chimera castle. I haven't used the exact mix of units (more tanks, no platoons), but the basic strategy is one I've had success with, the big guns force your opponent to move up and spread out or lose their tanks, while the drill squads smash isolated units once they're out of mishap range away from the table edge.

Had amazing post written up, explaining my idea in smart words in great detail. Twas a glorious post. Family member walks in "hey can I borrow computer?" "Sure". Come back, post is gone.

So, bear with me here Ailaros, but I'm not really convinced SITNW conscripts are entirely necessary at this points level. I've been playing 1k IG games at the store a lot lately as we've been getting used to 6th, and haven't really felt a need for SITNW conscripts at all. Only lost a couple of times, and in both situations, the conscripts wouldn't have done anything to turn it around. Foot IG is still very strong at 1k from what I've seen, provided you take the right units. This would be something I would take at 1k.

I've got more infantry than your conscript list would have, more firepower, and I've got 2 leman russ battle tanks. After messing around with conscripts at low points levels, I wouldn't add them till at least 1,500pts. At lower values, we have plenty of guardsmen so that unless someone brings 100% pure anti infantry weapons, you'll wreck them. The key is killing stuff that can kill your infantry turn one, and then just wearing them down from there. It's been working great for me so far.

For example, those leafblower lists would have either a manticore, a couple of basilisks, a leman russ, or some other heavy support choice to kill your infantry. You've got enough guns (and orders) to kill just about anything to minimize it's damage. At the very least, you can force it to hide from you all game, and then just kill his transports as quickly as possible.

Melta with autocannon ? you want to scare him away from your deployment zone, correct ?
I really don't see that working any otherway I like the idea.

And I'll give the lip as long as you don't tell me why you are going for HF on the LR on a list made for taking on mech heavy opponents
If you can flame the guardsmen they are in range to shove various grenades in your ass.

I've never played against another IG player, how odd is that ? It's interesting to see what people come up with.

 mayfist wrote:
Melta with autocannon ? you want to scare him away from your deployment zone, correct ?
I really don't see that working any otherway I like the idea.

And I'll give the lip as long as you don't tell me why you are going for HF on the LR on a list made for taking on mech heavy opponents
If you can flame the guardsmen they are in range to shove various grenades in your ass.

I've never played against another IG player, how odd is that ? It's interesting to see what people come up with.

Well, simply put, a heavy bolter that can only snapfire is borderline useless. A heavy flamer is free, and gives me options if the guy gets too close, or he brings stormtroopers etc. Simply put, it won't fire very often, but when it does, it'll inevitably do more damage than a bolter would. That's the plan at least. We'll see if it's worth taking down the road.

As for melta/autocannon, think of it like a line of pikemen. Ailaros calls it a melta hedge. Same thing basically. I don't want him coming close too quickly. Plus, meltas are cheaper and do a good amount of damage against everything but hordes. And they won't kill the operators like certain weapons.

And this isn't just for killing armor. This is a take all comers type list that I would take, just with the added thought of "What if I draw the leafblower guy". I probably don't need this much AT in my area, but I still think a list like this would serve you well in most situations. Only real problems I see are fliers and maybe massed termis/deepstrikers, but that's about it. And besides, those are rough matchups for foot IG in general, so that's something I'm used to dealing with.

Your list needs more guns:

HQ:
CCS, AC --- 60

Troops:
Veterans, 3x melta, Hades drill --- 150
Veterans, 3x melta, Hades drill --- 150

Platoon:
PCS, AC --- 40
Infantry squad, AC --- 60
Infantry squad, AC --- 60
Sabre guns x3, TL AC 120

Fast:
Vulture, TL punnisher cannons --- 155

Heavy:
Medusa --- 100
Medusa --- 100

Total: 995


Still all-foot except for the Vulture (which is awesome at glancing away Chimeras and brutal against light infantry), still has 3-4 "home" scoring units, still has decent non-blast firepower in 8.5 effective ACs, and the drills and Medusas can skip right past glancing and start exploding stuff. And with the Vulture + Sabre guns you've even got some decent AA. And best of all? You can't be accused of list tailoring, since that's pretty much the standard list I'd run at 1000 points.

 Peregrine wrote:
Your list needs more guns:

HQ:
CCS, AC --- 60

Troops:
Veterans, 3x melta, Hades drill --- 150
Veterans, 3x melta, Hades drill --- 150

Platoon:
PCS, AC --- 40
Infantry squad, AC --- 60
Infantry squad, AC --- 60
Sabre guns x3, TL AC 120

Fast:
Vulture, TL punnisher cannons --- 155

Heavy:
Medusa --- 100
Medusa --- 100

Total: 995


Still all-foot except for the Vulture (which is awesome at glancing away Chimeras and brutal against light infantry), still has 3-4 "home" scoring units, still has decent non-blast firepower in 8.5 effective ACs, and the drills and Medusas can skip right past glancing and start exploding stuff. And with the Vulture + Sabre guns you've even got some decent AA. And best of all? You can't be accused of list tailoring, since that's pretty much the standard list I'd run at 1000 points.

>Implying I wouldn't already be running an IA armored company with 5 leman russes if I could take FW
>Implying I wouldn't already own 3 hades breaching drills if we could use forgeworld at my store.
>Implying I wouldn't own 3 Vultures already if I could FREAKING BRING FORGEWORLD

Seriously, I'd take that list in a heartbeat if I could, looks like an incredibly awesome/fluffy krieg list. Only questions I have is that I thought the hades could only be bought by krieg engineers, who can only take shotguns and demo charges, and also that why are the medusas only 100pts? They're 135pts base in the IG codex.

Also, holy crap, are breaching drills only 50pts? I need to pick up DKoK right friggin now.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 mayfist wrote:
Melta with autocannon ? you want to scare him away from your deployment zone, correct ?
I really don't see that working any otherway I like the idea.

And I'll give the lip as long as you don't tell me why you are going for HF on the LR on a list made for taking on mech heavy opponents
If you can flame the guardsmen they are in range to shove various grenades in your ass.

I've never played against another IG player, how odd is that ? It's interesting to see what people come up with.

Well, simply put, a heavy bolter that can only snapfire is borderline useless. A heavy flamer is free, and gives me options if the guy gets too close, or he brings stormtroopers etc. Simply put, it won't fire very often, but when it does, it'll inevitably do more damage than a bolter would. That's the plan at least. We'll see if it's worth taking down the road.

As for melta/autocannon, think of it like a line of pikemen. Ailaros calls it a melta hedge. Same thing basically. I don't want him coming close too quickly. Plus, meltas are cheaper and do a good amount of damage against everything but hordes. And they won't kill the operators like certain weapons.

And this isn't just for killing armor. This is a take all comers type list that I would take, just with the added thought of "What if I draw the leafblower guy". I probably don't need this much AT in my area, but I still think a list like this would serve you well in most situations. Only real problems I see are fliers and maybe massed termis/deepstrikers, but that's about it. And besides, those are rough matchups for foot IG in general, so that's something I'm used to dealing with.

I see, i'm still rather inexperienced with full blown foot lists, hence me digging around Ailaros work.
I like the concept. And I suppose the other platoon is there to contest the middle grounds aye ?

As for the flamer on the LR, definitely food for thought. So much more to learn, so much more to test

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I thought the hades could only be bought by krieg engineers, who can only take shotguns and demo charges

In the DKoK list, yes. However, Hades drills are also available to codex IG, who have to pair them with a veteran squad. It's a difficult burden, but somehow I manage to survive having to follow up the drill with a 3x melta/plasma vet squad (often with demolitions). And did I mention they get to assault and melta bomb things on the turn they arrive, with 10x melta bombs? Demolitions becomes incredibly useful once you get to a point level where you can afford to take it.

and also that why are the medusas only 100pts? They're 135pts base in the IG codex.

Because those are the artillery version, not the tank.

Also, holy crap, are breaching drills only 50pts?

Yep. Second most awesome unit ever, after Marbo.

 Peregrine wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I thought the hades could only be bought by krieg engineers, who can only take shotguns and demo charges

In the DKoK list, yes. However, Hades drills are also available to codex IG, who have to pair them with a veteran squad. It's a difficult burden, but somehow I manage to survive having to follow up the drill with a 3x melta/plasma vet squad (often with demolitions). And did I mention they get to assault and melta bomb things on the turn they arrive, with 10x melta bombs? Demolitions becomes incredibly useful once you get to a point level where you can afford to take it.

and also that why are the medusas only 100pts? They're 135pts base in the IG codex.

Because those are the artillery version, not the tank.

Also, holy crap, are breaching drills only 50pts?

Yep. Second most awesome unit ever, after Marbo.

So you're meaning to tell me if I can sucker my club into playing forgeworld, I can have T7 +3 save medusa field guns with T7 guardsmen, Hades breaching drills for cheaper than chimeras, and not only that, but take them with demo/melta vets with shotties and have them assault anything that looks at me funny?

Jesus man, why don't you just go ahead and stick me in the poorhouse now? Because that's where I'll be if FW becomes regularly accepted around here

My god, it's the Armored Battlegroup thread all over again.

Back OT with Mayfist, we're still figuring out a good way to run foot IG. In no way is this the only way to run Foot guard period, this is just what I've found to be effective. Experiment and try new ideas. There's a lot of different things we haven't tried yet.

Back OT with Mayfist, we're still figuring out a good way to run foot IG. In no way is this the only way to run Foot guard period, this is just what I've found to be effective. Experiment and try new ideas. There's a lot of different things we haven't tried yet.

I figured as much, don't worry

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So you're meaning to tell me if I can sucker my club into playing forgeworld, I can have T7 +3 save medusa field guns with T7 guardsmen

Yep.

(Though don't expect it to last. Before the awful 6th edition artillery rules it was a mediocre unit and FW is probably aware of the hate it's generating, so it will probably at least get a major point increase.)

Hades breaching drills for cheaper than chimeras, and not only that, but take them with demo/melta vets with shotties and have them assault anything that looks at me funny?

Yeah, but don't forget that the Hades is cheap because it can be really inconsistent. It's great when you're facing a Chimera parking lot where it's impossible to miss and you'll often hit multiple targets, but against a less spammy army it often just scatters away uselessly and leaves an expensive vet squad in a suicidal position, while the Chimera bunker would have carried them safely and consistently into battle. Or sometimes it will just sit uselessly in reserve with 100-150 points of troops and not arrive until it's too late.

I don't care, it's a friggin drill that blows crap up. Rule of Cool supersedes logic.

Don't tell me a tin can on treads is superior to that beautiful piece of machinery.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I don't care, it's a friggin drill that blows crap up. Rule of Cool supersedes logic.

Don't tell me a tin can on treads is superior to that beautiful piece of machinery.

Well yeah. I got my first drill based on how awesome it was and only realized later that it's also good at winning games.

(Now it has two friends, including one "drive me closer, I want to hit them with my sword" model.)

 Peregrine wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I don't care, it's a friggin drill that blows crap up. Rule of Cool supersedes logic.

Don't tell me a tin can on treads is superior to that beautiful piece of machinery.

Well yeah. I got my first drill based on how awesome it was and only realized later that it's also good at winning games.

(Now it has two friends, including one "drive me closer, I want to hit them with my sword" model.)

I want to see that model

 mayfist wrote:
I want to see that model

Because this alone should convince you that Chimeras are a silly idea:

Ahaha love it !
Would have been even better if it was the guy on top was waving a sword.

Cheers mate ! Thanks for the pic.

MrMoustaffa wrote:
+ HQ + (170pts)

* Company Command Squad (85pts)
Lascannon, Regimental Standard

* Company Command Squad (85pts)
Lascannon, Regimental Standard

+ Troops + (530pts)

* Infantry Platoon (210pts)
* Infantry Squad: Lascannon, Plasma Gun
* Infantry Squad: Lascannon, Plasma Gun
* Platoon Command Squad: Autocannon

* Infantry Platoon (320pts)
* Infantry Squad: Autocannon, Meltagun
* Infantry Squad: Autocannon, Meltagun
* Infantry Squad: Autocannon, Meltagun
* Infantry Squad: Autocannon, Meltagun
* Platoon Command Squad: Autocannon

+ Heavy Support + (300pts)

* Leman Russ w/heavy flamer (don't give me lip, I've got an idea for them)

* Leman Russ w/heavy flamer

I suppose if lascannon PISs are the answer, it would be make sense to spam them.

I don't know if I feel QUITE comfortable abandoning conscripts altogether, though. Before I started running them, I got blown off the board, and I'd rather like to not go back to that...

On a related note, though, in my last 500 point game set, the lascannons I brought with my non-conscript infantry did pretty well. I just got back from an apocalypse game today (yes, there will be a shoddy apocalypse battle report), and I brought something akin to what I was talking about before. Two infantry platoons, each with a PCS+lascannon, 2x PIS+melta/lascannon, 20 conscripts with SiTNW, along with some other stuff, and it all worked pretty well, actually. Even with the lascannons getting picked off over time, the lascannons slowly but steadily racked up the kills. Perhaps 7 lascannons really is enough anti-tank for this points level.

What I'm now starting to think about is something like...

CCS - fist, standard, lascannon,
Priest - eviscerator

Stormtroopers (5) - 2x flamers

PCS - lascannon, chenkov
PIS - lascannon, meltagun
PIS - lascannon, meltagun
Conscripts (20) - Send in The Next Wave!

PCS - lascannon
PIS - lascannon, meltagun
PIS - lascannon, meltagun
PIS - lascannon, meltagun

With 30 extra points to throw around, maybe on a MoO (if my CCS feels survivable), or on an OotF (if I decide I hate fliers just that much more), or something.

Whatever my opponent is bringing, 8 lascannons (sometimes twin-linked) is going to be tough to stare down, and they can't get close or else melta hedge. 50 infantry might be enough to hold an objective at this points level, and I still have respawning conscripts for another. Plus, I've still got just enough points for my objective-clearing stormies.

 Ailaros wrote:
Whatever my opponent is bringing, 8 lascannons (sometimes twin-linked) is going to be tough to stare down

I don't think this is really the case. Even if we assume you get BiD on every gun every turn that's still only about 2.5 glances or better against Chimeras. Killing one Chimera per turn isn't going to stop them from rolling up into heavy flamer range and wiping/tank shocking entire squads off the table, and it's going to be tough to win a long-range fight when three of your LCs are on fragile command squads. You've got a lot of points tied up in things that don't help against Chimera walls (assault CCS/priest, conscripts, etc) and even if your lascannons get lucky you still don't have much ability to push forward and claim your opponent's objectives.

And of course if your opponent brings anti-infantry units (after all, if you get to prepare for them, they get to prepare for you) things can get really ugly. Griffon spam makes those vital command squads disappear, punisher cannon Vultures remove entire infantry squads at a time, etc.


Consider the following:

CCS (4x melta), Chimera

Veterans (3x melta), Chimera
Veterans (3x melta), Chimera
Veterans (3x melta), Chimera

Vulture, TL punisher cannons
Vulture, TL punisher cannons

Griffon

995 points with four aggressive Chimeras, two AV 12 flyers you have no answer to, and a barrage sniper you can't even attempt to shoot if there's any LOS blocking terrain. And that's assuming I keep my squads full of melta guns on the assumption that I could be facing Leman Russes.

That math seems a bit off. 8 lascannons that are twin-linked generate 6 hits. 4+ to pen.
On average it's 1 glance and 3 pens.
Are you assuming 5+ cover vs all hits?

How about this:
2x CCS, both with master of ordnance (S9 AP3 indirect with unlimited range)
3x Platoon Command with krak grenades
6x Infantry with lascannons
3x Heavy Weapon Teams with lascannons (9 lascannons)

1000 points on the nose.
Deploy CCS out of range and rain down S9 pieplate ordnance.
Take 15 lascannon shots.
Run forward 3 units of 5 men with krak grenades (only 35 points) and force your opponent to deal with them.

I think part of the key is the masters of ordnance. He gives you the range edge and will punish anything bunched behind a defensive line.

When it doubt, try bigger guns with longer range.

-Matt

What about Manticores+Vendettas? 3 Maticores, 3 Vendettas, 1 Aegis, and problem solved. There is no way that a mech army could survive this combo for the end of the 3rd turn. Throw in some Infantry Squads with Lascannons only, 1-2 CCS and the army is ready to kill some mech.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
That math seems a bit off. 8 lascannons that are twin-linked generate 6 hits. 4+ to pen.
On average it's 1 glance and 3 pens.
Are you assuming 5+ cover vs all hits?

How about this:
2x CCS, both with master of ordnance (S9 AP3 indirect with unlimited range)
3x Platoon Command with krak grenades
6x Infantry with lascannons
3x Heavy Weapon Teams with lascannons (9 lascannons)

1000 points on the nose.
Deploy CCS out of range and rain down S9 pieplate ordnance.
Take 15 lascannon shots.
Run forward 3 units of 5 men with krak grenades (only 35 points) and force your opponent to deal with them.

I think part of the key is the masters of ordnance. He gives you the range edge and will punish anything bunched behind a defensive line.

When it doubt, try bigger guns with longer range.

-Matt

The problem is the HW squads will get blown to pieces. They can be ID, they can run, and cost quite a lot.

 mayfist wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
That math seems a bit off. 8 lascannons that are twin-linked generate 6 hits. 4+ to pen.
On average it's 1 glance and 3 pens.
Are you assuming 5+ cover vs all hits?

How about this:
2x CCS, both with master of ordnance (S9 AP3 indirect with unlimited range)
3x Platoon Command with krak grenades
6x Infantry with lascannons
3x Heavy Weapon Teams with lascannons (9 lascannons)

1000 points on the nose.
Deploy CCS out of range and rain down S9 pieplate ordnance.
Take 15 lascannon shots.
Run forward 3 units of 5 men with krak grenades (only 35 points) and force your opponent to deal with them.

I think part of the key is the masters of ordnance. He gives you the range edge and will punish anything bunched behind a defensive line.

When it doubt, try bigger guns with longer range.

-Matt

The problem is the HW squads will get blown to pieces. They can be ID, they can run, and cost quite a lot.

The ID isn't that big of a problem. They have a 12" range advantage vs the build of the chimera parking lot, and will get a cover save from the platoons in front of them.
Yes, they will go down, and they may fall back. But it isn't an instant death thing, it does take some effort, and you're only losing 105 points.
Use the range advantage to force your opponents parking lot to move toward you to get those shots. And if anyone is falling back or re-grouping, take that round of movement to take pot shots at flyers, since you're only hitting on 6's anyway.
I'm ok with losing the weapon teams first. After I've popped your chimmeras, I'm going to need all those ~60 lasguns that you've been ignoring to kill your infantry.

Normally I'd agree with you, but mech guard is packed with a weapon that may as well be tailor made to kill heavy weapon teams.

You'll stop a few of them, but you won't stop all of them. Inevitably, at least a few will survive to unload some pain into your teams and tear them up. And if you're getting cover from your infantry, so is he. Trust me, I've learned that the hard way.

MoO? Manticores? I'm just wondering with the large blast over a parking lot with ordnance...Marbo for sure...Plasma platoon units in the back that get 12" out?

Manticores dude.

 TheCaptain wrote:
Manticores dude.

Yeah, Manticores hit their target. MoO doesn't. Pretty simple decision, really.

Actually, my MoO regularly hits, (or scatters into something else, and hits0 He's actually fairly accurate when you use an order the Bring it down and the vehicle is in line of sight.

Plus, he's only 30 points. He really only needs to hit something once to make his points back. He's the cheapest way to put put a barrage template on just about anything.

 Peregrine wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
Manticores dude.

Yeah, Manticores hit their target. MoO doesn't. Pretty simple decision, really.

And when your target is a parking lot, that 30 points is well spent.
My Company Command orders it's self to bring it down.
Then I've got an unlimited range S9 AP3, on the 2nd floor of the units, they are safe from the indirect.

-Matt

 kestril wrote:
Actually, my MoO regularly hits, (or scatters into something else, and hits0 He's actually fairly accurate when you use an order the Bring it down and the vehicle is in line of sight.

Plus, he's only 30 points. He really only needs to hit something once to make his points back. He's the cheapest way to put put a barrage template on just about anything.

Spend 30 points on something that might get lucky and hit something, maybe making its points back, or spend 30 points making a useful unit more useful: hmm...

Unless you've got 30 points laying around doing nothing (not likely) you should probably find a better use for points.

 Ailaros wrote:

Whatever my opponent is bringing, 8 lascannons (sometimes twin-linked) is going to be tough to stare down, and they can't get close or else melta hedge.

 Peregrine wrote:

I don't think this is really the case. Even if we assume you get BiD on every gun every turn that's still only about 2.5 glances or better against Chimeras.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
That math seems a bit off. 8 lascannons that are twin-linked generate 6 hits. 4+ to pen.
On average it's 1 glance and 3 pens.
Are you assuming 5+ cover vs all hits?

Just throwing some objective reasoning into the above discussion.

First off, assuming tl, HawaiiMatt's math is correct. But who cares about the average of how many glances or pens you are expected to get in a large number of experiments? It really does not give you any meaningful information. You want to stop those chimeras, so what are some relevant probabilities of doing so?

Assuming no twin-linking, no cover saves, the probability of 8 las HWT destroying at least one chimera in a single round of shooting is 0.636280068. At least two? 0.14116022. At least 3? 0.02353993.

Is it enough? Depends on the dice gods.

My personal (and subjective) opinion? (keeping with Ailaros' general theme)

Get some more heavy weapons in there, preferably that can hit side/rear av10 armour. My first thought was las sentinels. Dropping one las/melta squad and you can get two las sentinels with 10 points leftover. If you can find an extra 10 points, the math shifts in favour of 3 ac sentinels over 2 las sentinels versus av10 and av11.

But all foot? Obviously melta stormies, or marbo are options, marbo has my vote, as he costs about half, and can possibly hit a couple of hulls. Stormies are likely to get toasted after acing a single hull. Suprisingly, the probabilities are not so bad on a harker squad with a hb, and 3 gl, vs av10/11, but the squad costs 150 points....

TheCaptain wrote:
Spend 30 points on something that might get lucky and hit something, maybe making its points back, or spend 30 points making a useful unit more useful: hmm...

Unless you've got 30 points laying around doing nothing (not likely) you should probably find a better use for points.

The thing is, with the new barrage rules, he is useful, and he's the cheapest way to get a high strength barrage template on the board. The stuff that's useful (X3 meltaguns, come to mind, or 2 plasma guns) are only going to get one or two shots off anyways before the squad gets charged or shot off the board, while the MoO is usually stuck in the back somewhere and able to call in a template turn after turn. Yes, he's 30 points, but he usually has two to three turns to hit something and make his points back. Unlike my meltas, which have to get close and only get one shot. Useful, yes, but 30 points in melta guns are no more reliable than the MoO, more importantly, three melta guns can't fire at a target all the way across the board.

Oh, and call me crazy, but calling in lasers from space is fun. Yeah, fun.

 kestril wrote:

The thing is, with the new barrage rules, he is useful, and he's the cheapest way to get a high strength barrage template on the board. The stuff that's useful (X3 meltaguns, come to mind, or 2 plasma guns) are only going to get one or two shots off anyways before the squad gets charged or shot off the board, while the MoO is usually stuck in the back somewhere and able to call in a template turn after turn. Yes, he's 30 points, but he usually has two to three turns to hit something and make his points back. Unlike my meltas, which have to get close and only get one shot. Useful, yes, but 30 points in melta guns are no more reliable than the MoO, more importantly, three melta guns can't fire at a target all the way across the board.

Oh, and call me crazy, but calling in lasers from space is fun. Yeah, fun.

The bigest problem with the MoO is that his shot will scatter, no matter what. Except if you put him into LoS, then the enemy will instagib him with the Command Squad and GG.

And assuming that an MoO will do something useful just because your MoO works fine is weird. I mean, when I feel crazy and bring an MoO for my army, then the guy does roughly 50% of the damage... in my units .

 AtoMaki wrote:

 kestril wrote:

The thing is, with the new barrage rules, he is useful, and he's the cheapest way to get a high strength barrage template on the board. The stuff that's useful (X3 meltaguns, come to mind, or 2 plasma guns) are only going to get one or two shots off anyways before the squad gets charged or shot off the board, while the MoO is usually stuck in the back somewhere and able to call in a template turn after turn. Yes, he's 30 points, but he usually has two to three turns to hit something and make his points back. Unlike my meltas, which have to get close and only get one shot. Useful, yes, but 30 points in melta guns are no more reliable than the MoO, more importantly, three melta guns can't fire at a target all the way across the board.

Oh, and call me crazy, but calling in lasers from space is fun. Yeah, fun.

The bigest problem with the MoO is that his shot will scatter, no matter what. Except if you put him into LoS, then the enemy will instagib him with the Command Squad and GG.

And assuming that an MoO will do something useful just because your MoO works fine is weird. I mean, when I feel crazy and bring an MoO for my army, then the guy does roughly 50% of the damage... in my units .

It's not super easy to "instagib" a unit with unlimited range. 3D6/2D6 minus his BS of 4 is not a whole lot of scatter. The squad can order itself to bring it down, and twin-link the MoO.
So on average you're looking at a 3" to 6" scatter, with a 5" template. If the Chimeras aren't bunched up, those 15 Lascannons (which will drop to 6 lascannons pretty quick) will be getting in some nice side shots vs AV10.
I'm sorry, but aren't we trying to beat a wall of Chimeras with Foot Guard? Most of the suggestions I see are how to defeat a chimera wall, but are glossing over the "with foot guard" part.
Can you kill the Command Platoon? Sure, it's not that tough, but it does take some effort. Now you're looking at 5 squads (2 command platoons and 3 heavy weapon teams) that all have to get taken care of.
If you deploy deep, that's not as easy as it sounds.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

I'm sorry, but aren't we trying to beat a wall of Chimeras with Foot Guard? Most of the suggestions I see are how to defeat a chimera wall, but are glossing over the "with foot guard" part.

We are trying to beat mechguard, not just a wall of Chimeras. And mechguard includes things like Manticores, Vendettas/Valkyres, Russes, and all sorts of other stuff what isn't really scared to reach your "unlimited range CCS".

And we don't want to beat it with a full-foot guard. Or at least IIRC when I last talked about "foot guard" on this forum, others were quick to reply that "6th ed foot guard = hybrid guard".

Also, twin-linking on a Blast weapon that always scatters is no longer a very cool thing, since you can only re-roll if you rolled an arrow on the scatter dice. No re-rolls for you if you rolled a hit (but you will scatter anyways)!

 AtoMaki wrote:


We are trying to beat mechguard, not just a wall of Chimeras. And mechguard includes things like Manticores, Vendettas/Valkyres, Russes, and all sorts of other stuff what isn't really scared to reach your "unlimited range CCS".

And we don't want to beat it with a full-foot guard. Or at least IIRC when I last talked about "foot guard" on this forum, others were quick to reply that "6th ed foot guard = hybrid guard".

Also, twin-linking on a Blast weapon that always scatters is no longer a very cool thing, since you can only re-roll if you rolled an arrow on the scatter dice. No re-rolls for you if you rolled a hit (but you will scatter anyways)!

I think the OP is adamant about using footguard. Nevertheless, the MoO is more accurate than he sounds against vehicles because the entire blast marker now counts as a full strength hit. The 5 inch template has to scatter completely off a big, boxy chimera. So, in reality, the shot has to scatter six inches to be completely off-target. There's some leeway there.


Back to the problem at hand:

I find the most success in getting a solid fire base in the deployment, and then dropping as much distractions and disruption in their gunline as possible, so everything is a threat. This means Marbo, Stormtroopers, Outflanking sentinels, and a solid backbone of long-range shots coming from your deployment. The problem is striking the right balance.

If you're dead-set on footguard, then I really don't know what to tell you other than to stay out of range and bring as many lascannons as you possibly can and hope you roll well. Drop the stormies in and pop what the lascanon's didn't, then advance and clean up the soft infantry with something expendable.

Although, if you're open to some vehicles, I'd suggest the Leman Russ battle tank (or three). It's got range, and they make wonderful AV 14 line-of-sight blockers to advance your troops behind after the enemy's meltas have been removed. They've got ordinance for popping transports, too. Heck, you could even push up a demolisher to try and bait your opponent into driving out from the defence line. If he does, awesome, you can blam away with lascannons, if he doesn't, that's cool too. He can enjoy the Str 10 ap 2 template turn after turn.

I have to agree, the MoO is a great way to make your CCS a high profile unit without actually adding much to it. It's more likely to be killed at than kill anything. Always scattering 2d6 on a hit? 3d6 on a scatter? No thanks.

This is always going to be a tough one for foot guard as a chimera hull is darn cheap for AV 12 and carries guns that are optimized for horde control. For this reason I think trying to outgun it from the front is useless. You will just end up mirroring the army you are facing (with twice as many men on foot as they have in cans).

I guess the main weaknesses of the chimera hull are AV 10 side armor, only 36" range and no AT gun.

The main strength of foot guard is loads of scoring units.

Given the facts I hardly think it is possible for foot guard to "win" the battle, but it could be possible to win the game by KILLING HIS TROOPS!


So far no one mentioned griffons. Wouldn't they do quite well against a chimera spam?

Apart from that I would try outflanking / deep striking forcing the chimeras to show AV 10 to some element of the army.

At 1000 pts...

If you want to go "foot" let Al'rahem and half a dozen plasmaguns show up on a flank, Marbo drop his bomb and some meltastormies try to take out the meanest tank/artillery piece. Add as many PiS with autocannons/lascannons as you can get behind an Aegis line. Pray to the dice gods!

For a more hybrid approach I'd try a pair of griffons, scout sentinels and a LRBT of choice, maybe two. Aegis line + infantry with lascannons/autocannons.

The CCS is already a high value target, it's probably containing your warlord. Unless you're following Ailoroses style of making him choppy you're wanting to keep him away from danger, giving out orders and possibly doing some non LoS damage.

 Blaggard wrote:
The CCS is already a high value target, it's probably containing your warlord. Unless you're following Ailoroses style of making him choppy you're wanting to keep him away from danger, giving out orders and possibly doing some non LoS damage.

I would agree if you didn't need LoS for most of the orders a CCS makes compared to a PCS. Unfortunately you do need LoS making hiding your CCS in a foot list a horrible tactic.

So long as you keep him out of range, which is easy to do against a bunch of chimeras sitting behind an ADL. Keeping it away from danger =/= hiding him out of LoS.

How to deal with a wall of vehicles?? I solve that with one vehicle. The manticore it hits side armor and can hit multiple targets if he brings all the vehicles together. Hide it behind a building and if you worried about it being killed take two of them. If your wanting to stay with all ground forces then take vet squads with heavy weapons and infantry squads with heavy weapons that way you don't have to worry about the ID.

Another strategy is take the aegis and go to ground everytime he shoots you and use orders to get back up each turn.

Missile launchers can deal with either the side armour, or even glancing the front on 4, penetrating at 5 and they can deal with infantry as well. Mortars are also nice for tightly ranked troops and vehicles, 48' range, indirect and barrage as well.

 AtoMaki wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

I'm sorry, but aren't we trying to beat a wall of Chimeras with Foot Guard? Most of the suggestions I see are how to defeat a chimera wall, but are glossing over the "with foot guard" part.

We are trying to beat mechguard, not just a wall of Chimeras. And mechguard includes things like Manticores, Vendettas/Valkyres, Russes, and all sorts of other stuff what isn't really scared to reach your "unlimited range CCS".

And we don't want to beat it with a full-foot guard. Or at least IIRC when I last talked about "foot guard" on this forum, others were quick to reply that "6th ed foot guard = hybrid guard".

Also, twin-linking on a Blast weapon that always scatters is no longer a very cool thing, since you can only re-roll if you rolled an arrow on the scatter dice. No re-rolls for you if you rolled a hit (but you will scatter anyways)!

It doesn't always scatter, as you do deduct 4" for each scatter roll. With a 5" template firing at a chimera...
The mathhammer is messy, but the brake down is based on:
Ld9 test to bring it down (which gives re-rolls on scatter die)
That passes 30/36 and fails 6/36
If Pass then the scatter die hits 20/36 and misses 16 out of 36.
If fail, then scatter die hits 2/6 and misses 4/6.
A hit is 2D6" - 4" scatter, while an arrow is a 3D6" -4" scatter.
The template is 5", and to totally miss a target chimera, it would have to scatter at least 5", in some cases as much as 7".

Factor all of that in, including angle of scatter, you have a 61% chance of hitting the target chimera. 39% of the time it's scattering pretty close to the target chimera.
Oddly, this makes it almost exactly the same chance at killing, immobilizing or stunning as a twin-linked lascannon (if chimera is in the open).

The advantage of the MoO is that the shot is barrage so it ignores a lot of cover, can hit multiple targets, and even on a "miss" will be coming down pretty close to the primary target, making it likely to splash onto something else.

So, firstly, a MoO is a fine choice, especially now that the center of blast rules against vehicles has changed. With BiD and BS4, roughly two thirds of the times you roll a hit, you still have the template touching the vehicle you were pointing at, and with a scatter, it's a bit better than a third. And given that you get to reroll scatters with BiD, you're really not looking at terrible odds here. Plus, even when they scatter off, they can still wing stuff. Kill a space marine with it, and you've made half its points back already.

Secondly, manticores would be pretty decent against high-points vehicle spam, or if your opponent really likes to castle up. The main problem is that with only Ap4, you're not going to kill that many vehicles outright, so what you're mostly using it as is a tool to peel 1 HP off of multiple vehicles in a single turn. Yeah, not too shabs, but at lower points, opponents are going to be able to spread things out more, and I'm going to have fewer manticores.

Thirdly, I've played two games and an apocalypse game in the last couple of days where I tried lascannon spam in PISs and PCSs, and so far it's done me very well. It peels quantum shielding off of necron vehicles, and that +1 to the damage chart has been absolutely critical. Already in these few games, the difference between causing a vehicle explosion or two early in the game has been pretty pronounced compared to waiting until mid-game for everything to get glanced to death.

That the lascannon has other uses like causing instant death and ignoring all armor saves has even come in handy as well.

 Ailaros wrote:
And given that you get to reroll scatters with BiD, you're really not looking at terrible odds here.

Don't forget that you can only re-roll an arrow on the scatter die, you can't reroll a "hit" even though the MoO still scatters on a hit. So when you roll a "hit" with 10" scatter you're stuck with it, even if all you "hit" was empty table.

And you have to also account for the opportunity cost of spending BiD on the MoO. Even when it hits it's still only an AP 3 weapon, so is it really going to do more than a combined squad or HWS full of lascannons? More likely you're going to have better things to spend BiD on, so the MoO's chance of hitting anything drops considerably.

Plus, even when they scatter off, they can still wing stuff. Kill a space marine with it, and you've made half its points back already.

Yeah, but killing a space marine or two is pathetic, and those 30 points buy you another two lascannons. The MoO only justifies its cost when it gets a good hit, and it's not very reliable at that.

Here are the MoO probabilities for those who are interested, with a las for comparison. For the MoO I assume LoS, and if 2D6/3D6 scatter is 8 or less hull is still struck. Note here then that the probability will actually be a little bit higher, depending on the direction of the scatter, as some directions will allow for greater scatter distances to still nick a hull.

MoO..............p(Glance)...........................p(Pen)................................p(HP strip)........................p(Explodes!)
AV10.............0.01148834 .......................0.402091907....................0.346564929....................0.067015318
AV11.............0.01148834.......................0.379115226....................0.327417695....................0.063185871
AV12.............0.01148834 .......................0.344650206....................0.298696845....................0.057441701
AV13.............0.01148834.......................0.298696845....................0.260402378....................0.049782807
AV14.............0.01148834.......................0.172325103....................0.212534294....................0.040209191

tl MoO...........p(Glance).......................... p(Pen)................................p(HP strip).........................p(Explodes!)
AV10.............0.014346136.................... 0.502114769.................... 0.432775111.................... 0.083685795
AV11.............0.014346136.................... 0.473422497.................... 0.408864883.................... 0.078903749
AV12.............0.014346136.................... 0.430384088.................... 0.372999543.................... 0.071730681
AV13.............0.014346136.................... 0.372999543.................... 0.325179089.................... 0.06216659
AV14.............0.014346136.................... 0.215192044.................... 0.265403521....................0.050211477

BS4 LAS...... p(Glance)...........................p(Pen)................................p(HP strip)........................ p(Explodes!)
AV10.............0.111111111.................... 0.555555556....................0.481481481.................... 0.185185185
AV11.............0.111111111.................... 0.444444444.................... 0.407407407.................... 0.148148148
AV12.............0.111111111.................... 0.333333333.................... 0.333333333.................... 0.111111111
AV13.............0.111111111.................... 0.222222222....................0.259259259....................0.074074074
AV14.............0.111111111.................... 0.111111111.................... 0.185185185.................... 0.037037037

BS4 tl LAS... p(Glance)...........................p(Pen)................................p(HP strip)........................p(Explodes!)
AV10.............0.148148148.................... 0.740740741.................... 0.641975309.................... 0.24691358
AV11.............0.148148148.................... 0.592592593....................0.543209877....................0.197530864
AV12.............0.148148148.................... 0.444444444.................... 0.444444444.................... 0.148148148
AV13.............0.148148148.................... 0.296296296.................... 0.345679012.................... 0.098765432
AV14.............0.148148148.................... 0.148148148.................... 0.24691358.................... 0.049382716

 Barksdale wrote:
Here are the MoO probabilities for those who are interested, with a las for comparison. For the MoO I assume LoS, and if 2D6/3D6 scatter is 8 or less hull is still struck. Note here then that the probability will actually be a little bit higher, depending on the direction of the scatter, as some directions will allow for greater scatter distances to still nick a hull.

Well that's just sad. Good to see the numbers confirm how bad the MoO is though, even allowing the MoO to hit AV 10 while the LC has to deal with AV 12.

The MoO is a gamble, a gamble that i love taking.
Yes you can miss every single time, but even if you miss you might hit something else. And lile Aileros said, it's really easy to make your points back.

So yes in mathhammer, and against the target you aimed at, it sucks. But on the field it's a rather good.

I don't think that the MoO even benefits from BiD. The order gives Twin-Linked to the squad's weapons, and the MoO uses a special rule to fire his large blast. It is just treated as a shooting attack, and that's all.

And the Manticores are best used with Vendettas:
1st turn: Manticores suppress stuff with pens (auto-penetrates AV10)
2nd turn: Vendettas come in and wreck 3 vehicles, Maticores keep suppressing the rest
3rd turn: Vendettas enter Hover Mode, vets/SWS bail out, mop up begins
4th turn: at this point you probably wrecked 8+ enemy vehicles, the enemy is in disarray, so you can move out to capture objectives or whatever you want

I agree with atomaki. The penetration of the chimeras is really important. Your opponents firepower will be reduced most times you do or you can get an explosion which will probably kill most of the guardsmen inside. Penetration on chimeras is more important than on rhinos or razorbacks because the resulting explosion can kill the troops inside quite effectively. Of course in a perfect world we'd always aim for pens. It's just more likely that the glance wreck will happen first.

The thing to remember is that it's a barrage weapon. So whatever is on the receiving end doesn't get the benefit of a cover save. That's 4+ cover for vehicles (3+ if they have camo cloaks). A smart opponent will be hiding his vehicles behind an ADL, ruins, or something.

I run my CCS with a lascannon and a MoO. Here's the difference: The Lascannon shot gets soaked up by a 4+ save, and the MoO gets to penetrate, strip off a hull point and roll on the results table.

 kestril wrote:
The thing to remember is that it's a barrage weapon. So whatever is on the receiving end doesn't get the benefit of a cover save. That's 4+ cover for vehicles (3+ if they have camo cloaks). A smart opponent will be hiding his vehicles behind an ADL, ruins, or something.

I run my CCS with a lascannon and a MoO. Here's the difference: The Lascannon shot gets soaked up by a 4+ save, and the MoO gets to penetrate, strip off a hull point and roll on the results table.

Barrage weapons do not ignore cover. Lets say they're in terrain. They would still get their cover saves. Or say the dot on the blast marker is on the wrong side of the ADL, they get cover.

Only looking at the Explode column is misleading.
I'd be perfectly happy with a stun, immobilize or a destroy, of which the lascannon only has a 4 to 3 advantage.

~75% hits on a the chimera will be coming down from behind the ADL, ignoring the 4+ cover.
Also, scatter of 8 or less doesn't fully account for hits on the chimera. The chimera is a box, so it isn't that tough to do a weighted mean with direction of scatter.

Ignoring factors like cover, range and the scatter still hitting on a 9" scatter makes the lascannon look better in the match up than it is.

Most important of all, the MoO shot does come down even on a 12" scatter. If aimed at center mass, you'll still get a hit.

-Matt

Seriously, Allies...
A Necron Doom Scythe would cover most of his parking lot in STR 10 AP 1 Goodness...multiple kills in one shot....use the rst of the army to take down what you didn't get.

Peregrine wrote:

Barksdale wrote:Here are the MoO probabilities for those who are interested, with a las for comparison. For the MoO I assume LoS, and if 2D6/3D6 scatter is 8 or less hull is still struck. Note here then that the probability will actually be a little bit higher, depending on the direction of the scatter, as some directions will allow for greater scatter distances to still nick a hull.

Well that's just sad. Good to see the numbers confirm how bad the MoO is though, even allowing the MoO to hit AV 10 while the LC has to deal with AV 12.

Wait, how do you get that conclusion from that data?

Against a chimera, the master of ordnance does better than the lascannon (assuming BiD in both cases). Remember, that MoO is very likely hitting AV10, while the lascannon is stuck with AV12. Plus, the MoO shoots OVER cover, which means that they're likely not getting a cover save against the MoO shot either, so there's a pretty good chance that you have to reduce the killing power by 1/3 or 1/2 of the lascannon to make it realistic.

And it can hurt heavier armor better. And it can take off HP from multiple tightly packed vehicles. And it can hit infantry with a large blast.

This thing is a steal.

Plus, there's something really important to consider here. A lascannon HWS has the unfortunance of being on a HWS. That means that while you're stuck on a roughly 50-50 chance for the lascannons to take orders, the MoO gets to pass those same orders in Ld9, which is rather more likely. Plus, HWSs are notoriously easy to kill, what with having instant death problems, and having really low leadership.

 AtoMaki wrote:
I don't think that the MoO even benefits from BiD. The order gives Twin-Linked to the squad's weapons, and the MoO uses a special rule to fire his large blast. It is just treated as a shooting attack, and that's all.

And the Manticores are best used with Vendettas:
1st turn: Manticores suppress stuff with pens (auto-penetrates AV10)
2nd turn: Vendettas come in and wreck 3 vehicles, Maticores keep suppressing the rest
3rd turn: Vendettas enter Hover Mode, vets/SWS bail out, mop up begins
4th turn: at this point you probably wrecked 8+ enemy vehicles, the enemy is in disarray, so you can move out to capture objectives or whatever you want

Master of Ordnance is a weapon. It's got a listed range, AP, heavy, Ordnance. That makes it a weapon.

That break down is a little optimistic.
1) Manticore can scatter off target. Counter barrage fire might gimp the manticore preventing it from shooting at all. Still a great weapon, but not a 100%.
2) Vendettas will have to worry about the quadgun. Also, if you think you're wrecking 3 vehicles, you need all 3 vendetta choices coming in. 3+ for reserve means that is not likely.
3) Vendettas entering hover mod is dependent on the first few turns of firing. If the opponent isn't properly weakened, going into hover mod too soon may cost you the vendettas. Likewise, if you have to stay in zoom mod to stay alive, you might be forced off the table.

A final point, take MoO with the Manticore and Vendettas.
Having another S9 ordnance on turns 1 and 2 along with the Manticore will help to soften up the enemy for the vendettas.
The games I win against vendetta based guard are games where the non-vendetta half of the army can't put me into disarray.

-Matt

 Ailaros wrote:

Plus, there's something really important to consider here. A lascannon HWS has the unfortunance of being on a HWS. That means that while you're stuck on a roughly 50-50 chance for the lascannons to take orders, the MoO gets to pass those same orders in Ld9, which is rather more likely. Plus, HWSs are notoriously easy to kill, what with having instant death problems, and having really low leadership.

And the MoO is with a CCS. What is a high-piority target anyways (because of BiD), so an attached MoO is just another eason for yoopponent to concentrate his fire on the Command Squad. And it is quite unfortunate, as losing the CCS in a foot-guard army is a big deal.

But I1m more concerned about the MoO's "friendly fire effectiveness". There are only a few things that are worse than a loose MoO shot landing right in the middle of your objective-holding troops .

Master of Ordnance is a weapon. It's got a listed range, AP, heavy, Ordnance. That makes it a weapon.

I think a model's weapons are in its wargear section. I mean, a weapon is what a modell actually carries into battle and fires it. The Artillery Bombardment is just a special rule that allows the MoO to make a special shooting attack. Since it is a shooting attack, it should have a profile.

That break down is a little optimistic.

Well, it isn't less optimistic than this whole MoO scenario where it survies everything, hits everytime and blows stuff into the sky without problem (and not just scratch vehicles while making your CCS into a no1 target for everything that can reach it) .

HawaiiMatt wrote:

3) Vendettas entering hover mod is dependent on the first few turns of firing. If the opponent isn't properly weakened, going into hover mod too soon may cost you the vendettas. Likewise, if you have to stay in zoom mod to stay alive, you might be forced off the table.

I see this idea a lot. Why is it the most disastrous thing in the world to lose a vendetta if it's in hover mode? I've used vendettas as bait before, people love shooting that thing in hover mode, they get some weird satisfaction only to ignore the fact it has jink and that my chimeras snuck out of cover to blow their load onto an objective. It's pretty amusing how often people go for the vendetta. It's only 130pts, I'd rather lose that than a chimera and leaving my vets at best stranded, at worst badly mauled by the explosion. Of course this perspective is from a turn 4+. The vendetta has done its damage by then.

 mayfist wrote:
it's really easy to make your points back.

This is barely a relevant argument for stuff.

If you shoot a BS3 missile launcher at a squad of marines; it's pretty darn likely to make it's points back in two or three turns. It's still bad.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
3) Vendettas entering hover mod is dependent on the first few turns of firing. If the opponent isn't properly weakened, going into hover mod too soon may cost you the vendettas.

I really don't see why this was such a problem. Vendettas were awesome in 5th edition as fast skimmers, and dropping into hover mode just gives you a 5th edition Vendetta that now has a free 5+ cover save. Sure, it's nice that 6th made them even more powerful with zoom mode, but a hovering Vendetta is still a very good unit.

 Ailaros wrote:
Wait, how do you get that conclusion from that data?

Just look at the numbers. Even if you compare the MoO against AV 10 to the LC against AV 12 they have an equal chance of removing a hull point, and the LC is far more likely to explode the Chimera in one shot. And that's not even considering the fact that the MoO is more expensive.

Plus, the MoO shoots OVER cover, which means that they're likely not getting a cover save against the MoO shot either, so there's a pretty good chance that you have to reduce the killing power by 1/3 or 1/2 of the lascannon to make it realistic.

Of course the MoO doesn't help against smoke saves, so if the mech player decides to rush you and get into flamer range your MoO doesn't have any advantage.

And it can take off HP from multiple tightly packed vehicles.

Which it isn't going to do in this scenario. At 1000 points you can easily spread out your Chimeras enough that it's impossible to hit more than one with a large blast, and even if you're staying closer to maximize terrain-based cover it's still fairly easy to keep enough of a gap that it requires a lot of luck with perfect scatter distance and direction to drop the template right in the middle between the two.

And it can hit infantry with a large blast.

IF it hits. Infantry aren't all or nothing like vehicles, and the MoO is not exactly reliable at getting direct hits. Hitting a token marine or two might make its points back, but that still compares poorly to its points in other weapons.

Plus, there's something really important to consider here. A lascannon HWS has the unfortunance of being on a HWS. That means that while you're stuck on a roughly 50-50 chance for the lascannons to take orders, the MoO gets to pass those same orders in Ld9, which is rather more likely. Plus, HWSs are notoriously easy to kill, what with having instant death problems, and having really low leadership.

Except orders are a non-issue. If you've lost so many of your heavy weapons that you're giving BiD to the CCS itself instead of a combined squad with multiple LCs or a LC HWS you've already lost the game.

Gonna have to side with Peregrine, if you need to kill vehicles, MoO is probably not the best choice. If you're writing a Take all comers list, he's still not a bad idea as he gives you a cheap way to get more templates for fighting hordes, but if your primary goal is to kill leafblower, I wouldn't take it.

I'm also pretty sure I'm contradicting something I said earlier in this thread, but I can't find it. Oh well, if I am, my mind has changed since then.

To be perfectly honest, chimera spam guard is probably the toughest matchup I've ever had with my infantry lists. Everything else I've felt like I could've played better or just lost due to luck. Chimera spam lists make me think it may just be a bad matchup.

Also, assuming a vendetta is dead the moment it hovers is kind of silly. If you're at turn 3/4 with a vendetta, and entering hover mode with it is certain death, then there are probably more glaring problems with your list that you should be worried about. It's still basically a flying tank with a free cover save. At the very worst case scenario, you at least distracted all your enemy's AT fire for a turn.

if you want to beat him in his extreme just guard blobs with krak grenades would do it. You would out number him 4 to 1 and the bodies would get there.

 Ailaros wrote:
And it can hurt heavier armor better. And it can take off HP from multiple tightly packed vehicles. And it can hit infantry with a large blast.

Pretty much this. Yes, there is always a chance that it will not do anything, but this is true for ANY weapon. Its still a Str9 Ap3 large blast, for 30 points.

I put up the las probabilites not because in they are in competition with eachother, but only for a relative comparison. If you want to take an additional heavy weapon, you need to have an open slot. If you are taking a CCS anyway, which in foot guard is pretty much a given, the MoO does not require to purchase an additional CCS/PCS/PIS/vet or whatever if you have no slots open. So they are not in competition with eachother, but actually complement eachother. There is really no reason why you cannot take both (points permitting).

 AtoMaki wrote:

But I1m more concerned about the MoO's "friendly fire effectiveness". There are only a few things that are worse than a loose MoO shot landing right in the middle of your objective-holding troops .

Which I find odd for somebody in favor of a Manticore.
2D6" scatter, with a 5" template flop for the 2nd and 3rd blast isn't all that much less friendly than a 3D6 inch scatter.
You simply don't want to use barrages for close fire-support, unless those shots are coming from a griffon.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

But I1m more concerned about the MoO's "friendly fire effectiveness". There are only a few things that are worse than a loose MoO shot landing right in the middle of your objective-holding troops .

Which I find odd for somebody in favor of a Manticore.
2D6" scatter, with a 5" template flop for the 2nd and 3rd blast isn't all that much less friendly than a 3D6 inch scatter.
You simply don't want to use barrages for close fire-support, unless those shots are coming from a griffon.

Run a psyker with divination and TL the manticore with the prescience power. Improves its effectiveness substantially.

Ok, this thread is losing some of its purpose. Ailaros wants help beating chimera spam using foot guard. Last I checked, allies, whether they're doom scythes, rune priests, or anything else, thats not foot guard. Not trying to anger people, but thats like me going into a ork thread and going "why not kill armor with meltagun vets in a vendetta?"

Same, sadly, goes for most forgeworld stuff. Not everyone is lucky enough to have stores that widely accept FW, so even though a forgeworld choice may be perfect, not everyone can use it.

 AtoMaki wrote:


And the Manticores are best used with Vendettas:
1st turn: Manticores suppress stuff with pens (auto-penetrates AV10)
2nd turn: Vendettas come in and wreck 3 vehicles, Maticores keep suppressing the rest
3rd turn: Vendettas enter Hover Mode, vets/SWS bail out, mop up begins
4th turn: at this point you probably wrecked 8+ enemy vehicles, the enemy is in disarray, so you can move out to capture objectives or whatever you want

Wow, you are very optimistic, aren't you?

1) Manticore will probably hit the chimera wall, I agree with that. But it is possible (and there is a good chance for it) it will not do anything besides striping one or two vehicles from 1 Hull point and maybe shake it, which I do not see as a good result against chimera wall.
2) Reserves are 3+. You can not count with 3 Vendettas coming in turn 2. Even if they would come, there is only a small chance you actually destroy 3 vehicles. Very small. There are many things that can go wrong. Maybe you will not hit (yes, it happens from time to time, even to TL weapons), maybe you will not penetrate (against AV12 you have only 50%), maybe enemy has cover, jink, invul, smokes (chimera wall will probably be smoked), maybe you roll badly on dammage table. I usually play with 2 vendettas and in my games they almost always manage to kill one vehicle when they show up. Sometimes they kill two, sometimes they do nothing, but most probable outcome is to destroy one vehicle (it depends on the vehicle you are shoting at of course).
3) Your enemy can have a quad gun. Yes, it only has a small chance to explode vendetta, but when this happens, it is a big, really big blow to your army (especially when you have infantry on board). You opponent can also shot your flyer down even with no skyfire weapons. TL or massed fire can destroy a flyer, it is in no way impossible. Or he can destroy it with his own flyers. You can not take for granted your vendettas will live to see another turn.

You overestimate your Vendettas and underestimate your opponents army. If he playes chimera wall, it is possible he has his own vendettas. In that case, your flyers can go down with the rest of the soldiers on board with ease.

So, again, you are too optimistic I think


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Ok, this thread is losing some of its purpose. Ailaros wants help beating chimera spam using foot guard. Last I checked, allies, whether they're doom scythes, rune priests, or anything else, thats not foot guard. Not trying to anger people, but thats like me going into a ork thread and going "why not kill armor with meltagun vets in a vendetta?"

Same, sadly, goes for most forgeworld stuff. Not everyone is lucky enough to have stores that widely accept FW, so even though a forgeworld choice may be perfect, not everyone can use it.

Agree, Ailaros obviously does not play with allies or forgeworld stuff (checked his batreps), it is not helpfull to advice him to use it when he does not want to. What can help against chimera wall, are blasts, DS, outflank. MoO is a good choice IMHO, he is very cheap and can hit a parking place even with his unaccurate bombardment. Good choices are imho also Marbo, suicide melta Stormies (for taking out stuff like Manticore or Leman), Rahem with melta/plazma PISs and SWSs.

I agree mech-vet list is very tough opponent for a foot guard.

I play Foot Guard and IG Mechspam is about the best matchup I can get. People don't even take the Heavy Flamer on every Chimera anymore, it's just perfect.

The trick is to maximize what you do by playing Foot Guard - you have cheap units, lots of them. Don't take any units that could become priority targets for your opponents.

No HWS
No Heavy Support units
No Elites (except maybe some Ratlings if you really want them)

So basically, all you bring are Blobs and Command Squads, plus the occasional Scout Sentinels for flavor. It will get you to 200 bodies real fast, even at 1800 points. Half of them should have some Lascannons or Autocannons in the PIS or CCS, the other half are tooled up with 'nades and a Meltagun in each PIS, with Commissars to keep up morale on the tooled-up blobs.

The Lascannons should be able to take out the occasional horde killer that Mech Guard sometimes bring (Hellhound!), but even if they don't, just think what in a mech list could even dream of stopping 100 advancing Guardsmen that are backed up by 100 shooting/objective-holding Guardsmen. Once you get close, its Krak and Melta-gun/bombs party time!

Aleinikov wrote:
but even if they don't, just think what in a mech list could even dream of stopping 100 advancing Guardsmen that are backed up by 100 shooting/objective-holding Guardsmen

You make that sound difficult in an 1800 point list. Manticores are pretty common and they can sweep through advancing mobs of guard. Similarly Griffons have a great effect on them. Eventually you'll fail a Ld test even with the Ld 9 commissars in there. Flamer PCS is also very common and that can wipe out entire units at a time if it's given the chance. I think you're over estimating the power of 100 crappy men with no armor save and at best a 5+ cover save if they're lucky. Just so happens that barrage weapons will likely negate this and flamers will flat out ignore it.

Aleinikov wrote:
I play Foot Guard and IG Mechspam is about the best matchup I can get. People don't even take the Heavy Flamer on every Chimera anymore, it's just perfect.

The trick is to maximize what you do by playing Foot Guard - you have cheap units, lots of them. Don't take any units that could become priority targets for your opponents.

No HWS
No Heavy Support units
No Elites (except maybe some Ratlings if you really want them)

So basically, all you bring are Blobs and Command Squads, plus the occasional Scout Sentinels for flavor. It will get you to 200 bodies real fast, even at 1800 points. Half of them should have some Lascannons or Autocannons in the PIS or CCS, the other half are tooled up with 'nades and a Meltagun in each PIS, with Commissars to keep up morale on the tooled-up blobs.

The Lascannons should be able to take out the occasional horde killer that Mech Guard sometimes bring (Hellhound!), but even if they don't, just think what in a mech list could even dream of stopping 100 advancing Guardsmen that are backed up by 100 shooting/objective-holding Guardsmen. Once you get close, its Krak and Melta-gun/bombs party time!

Problems are the lack of mobility - the Chimerae can focus down the officers then tank shock the LD8 blobs for infinity days.

My Armored Battlegroup list routinely tank-shocks enemies off of the board, because of 10 or so tests on the main enemy unit if I coordinate right.

 Griddlelol wrote:

Aleinikov wrote:
but even if they don't, just think what in a mech list could even dream of stopping 100 advancing Guardsmen that are backed up by 100 shooting/objective-holding Guardsmen

You make that sound difficult in an 1800 point list. Manticores are pretty common and they can sweep through advancing mobs of guard. Similarly Griffons have a great effect on them. Eventually you'll fail a Ld test even with the Ld 9 commissars in there. Flamer PCS is also very common and that can wipe out entire units at a time if it's given the chance. I think you're over estimating the power of 100 crappy men with no armor save and at best a 5+ cover save if they're lucky. Just so happens that barrage weapons will likely negate this and flamers will flat out ignore it.

Manticores are much overcosted for what they can do against foot IG. Sure, they can kill a bunch, but not enough if the troops are properly spaced. Griffons do hurt and can spoil the game for you. So far, I haven't seen more than 2 in a list ever, and if you can kill them early enough with the heavy weapons, it can still work out. Griffons sure make for a difficult game but its still far from an auto loss. Now if you run into 2 Griffons + Manticore + another pie-plate tank it means trouble. I don't consider it likely to happen, though.

I also do not see Leadership test as an issue. It takes an awful lot to kill enough guardsmen in a 30-50 men blob to cause a check, and that check is againsts Ld9 rerollable. It's a) not likely to happen and b) a failed test is =/= lost game. There are 2 CCS to help with orders, and even failing that, all a failed check does is slow down the advance.

Flamer PCS??? Really??? That's 5 guardsmen in a Chimera. You should have just enough firepower in your list to deal with that before you close in for Flamers to become dangerous.

Aleinikov wrote:
The Lascannons should be able to take out the occasional horde killer that Mech Guard sometimes bring (Hellhound!), but even if they don't, just think what in a mech list could even dream of stopping 100 advancing Guardsmen that are backed up by 100 shooting/objective-holding Guardsmen. Once you get close, its Krak and Melta-gun/bombs party time!

100 advancing guardsmen is a nice snack for mech guard chimera spam...(imagine about 6 chimeras with veteran squads or CCS inside + manticore firing into T3 models...a masacre!..and once you "get close" its chimera heavy flaming time + rapid firing from vets inside)
100 backfield guardsmen with LCs can do some dammage, but not much really. Of course I count with savvy opponent who will kill your leaders first to deny orders.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Aleinikov wrote:
I...

Problems are the lack of mobility - the Chimerae can focus down the officers then tank shock the LD8 blobs for infinity days.

My Armored Battlegroup list routinely tank-shocks enemies off of the board, because of 10 or so tests on the main enemy unit if I coordinate right.

Yes, mobility can be a problem, fully agree. Dark-/ Eldar or the like can be trouble to get a hold of. Mech IG though isn't exactly mobile either. Sooner rather than later those tanks will have nowhere to go, and thats only if they sacrifice firepower for mobility.

Can you explain how you focus fire down 3-5 sergeants plus commissar with Chimerea? Keep in mind the commissar will do the best he can to hide behind terrain, while trailing behind the unit.

I arm my advancing blobs with Meltaguns and Meltabombs not least because I want to stop tank shocks. It'd be extremely difficult for you to find a tank shock route without running into a Meltagun or Bomb. There are few easier ways for foot guard to kill tanks than death-or-glory. The cost vs benefit works much in favor of the foot Guard.

Certainly, you will only ever get one round of tank-shocking, no infinity days there. Even if one blob runs away (how many tank shocks would that take? Minimum 3 I guess), there should be another blob right behind. Thats 3 Chimerea + content dead for the price of one blob pushed back a few inches. Is that worth it?

Aleinikov wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Aleinikov wrote:
I...

Problems are the lack of mobility - the Chimerae can focus down the officers then tank shock the LD8 blobs for infinity days.

My Armored Battlegroup list routinely tank-shocks enemies off of the board, because of 10 or so tests on the main enemy unit if I coordinate right.

Yes, mobility can be a problem, fully agree. Dark-/ Eldar or the like can be trouble to get a hold of. Mech IG though isn't exactly mobile either. Sooner rather than later those tanks will have nowhere to go, and thats only if they sacrifice firepower for mobility.

Can you explain how you focus fire down 3-5 sergeants plus commissar with Chimerea? Keep in mind the commissar will do the best he can to hide behind terrain, while trailing behind the unit.

I arm my advancing blobs with Meltaguns and Meltabombs not least because I want to stop tank shocks. It'd be extremely difficult for you to find a tank shock route without running into a Meltagun or Bomb. There are few easier ways for foot guard to kill tanks than death-or-glory. The cost vs benefit works much in favor of the foot Guard.

Certainly, you will only ever get one round of tank-shocking, no infinity days there. Even if one blob runs away (how many tank shocks would that take? Minimum 3 I guess), there should be another blob right behind. Thats 3 Chimerea + content dead for the price of one blob pushed back a few inches. Is that worth it?

You don't focus down the officers in the squads. You focus down commands squads and the like, to remove the GBiTF order.

As for meltaguns and meltabombs - it's not that hard to avoid them. Either they're in the front of the blob, in which case they're the first to bite it when bullets fly, or they're in the back and I only have to tank shock like 3 inches into the blob and contact the lead man with a lasgun.

EDIT:
Actually, I don't remember if one must move 12" during a tank shock (or at least top speed). If so, then it's harder with Chimeras. A Russ can only ever go 6".

 Lothar wrote:

Wow, you are very optimistic, aren't you?
*stuff*
So, again, you are too optimistic I think

Wow, is this a sarcasm post? My Sarcasm Detector is off nowadays, so just askin' to be sure .

If not, then sorry, I can't get your point. I mean, we might just stop playing IG altogether, because you opponent can wreck your plan with his stuff. You MoO will die from 10 infiltrating Ratling shots (alongside with you CCS), your HWS armada will vapourize behind their Aegis Defence Line because of the enemy Manticores, and you blobs will be r*ped by everything else. So why should we even bother? Just take the trustworthy Nob Bikers and everything will be just fine. And this thread is completely pointless (doh!).

Aleinikov wrote:

Manticores are much overcosted for what they can do against foot IG. Sure, they can kill a bunch, but not enough if the troops are properly spaced. Griffons do hurt and can spoil the game for you. So far, I haven't seen more than 2 in a list ever, and if you can kill them early enough with the heavy weapons, it can still work out. Griffons sure make for a difficult game but its still far from an auto loss. Now if you run into 2 Griffons + Manticore + another pie-plate tank it means trouble. I don't consider it likely to happen, though.

They're not over-costed considering most people take them in an all-comers list. They'd be there whether it's against guard, necrons or MEQ. The ability to snipe out the scary parts of blobs is something you're over looking. Barrage can take out that commissar or melta gun pretty easily, especially the Griffon. Another assumption you make is that you can see the barrage weapons to shoot at them.

Flamer PCS??? Really??? That's 5 guardsmen in a Chimera. You should have just enough firepower in your list to deal with that before you close in for Flamers to become dangerous.

Who said anything about them being in a chimera? So now you've changed from "you can't deal with 100 men" to "you should be able to deal with 100 men before flamers". It's also a key to note that multiple versions of these in your back field will cause havoc for your scoring units.

My point is, advancing guardsmen aren't scary to a leaf-blower list.

 Lothar wrote:

Aleinikov wrote:
The Lascannons should be able to take out the occasional horde killer that Mech Guard sometimes bring (Hellhound!), but even if they don't, just think what in a mech list could even dream of stopping 100 advancing Guardsmen that are backed up by 100 shooting/objective-holding Guardsmen. Once you get close, its Krak and Melta-gun/bombs party time!

100 advancing guardsmen is a nice snack for mech guard chimera spam...(imagine about 6 chimeras with veteran squads or CCS inside + manticore firing into T3 models...a masacre!..and once you "get close" its chimera heavy flaming time + rapid firing from vets inside)
100 backfield guardsmen with LCs can do some dammage, but not much really. Of course I count with savvy opponent who will kill your leaders first to deny orders.

Do your Chimeras all have Heavy Flamers? Most Chimeras I have seen in 6th edition have hull HB for the extra (snap) shots. If all of yours still have them, I give you that you have a chance (though not the massacre you expect). Flamer range means I'm close, and I don't need 100 guardsmen to clear a parking lot. All it takes to reliably kill an IG tank is 9 simple Guardsmen.

I also think your are overestimating the output of your Mech Vets. This is theoryhammer much, but assuming all your Chimeras have HF (unlikely), all of them survive long enough (highly unlikely) and get in perfect position (even less likely) for a simultanous superflame/rapidfire party, you could kill one blob in a single turn. Well, there are two more blobs right behind, and you can say goodbye to 1000 points of your army.

6th edition also helped with the "kill the leaders". Keeping the Company Commander alive was an issue in 5th, but now, he'll just sit out of LOS and give orders, while his squad can be in LOS to shoot a bit until they are killed. Again, Griffons can become a problem. Everything else - not so much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Griddlelol wrote:

Aleinikov wrote:

Manticores are much overcosted for what they can do against foot IG. Sure, they can kill a bunch, but not enough if the troops are properly spaced. Griffons do hurt and can spoil the game for you. So far, I haven't seen more than 2 in a list ever, and if you can kill them early enough with the heavy weapons, it can still work out. Griffons sure make for a difficult game but its still far from an auto loss. Now if you run into 2 Griffons + Manticore + another pie-plate tank it means trouble. I don't consider it likely to happen, though.

They're not over-costed considering most people take them in an all-comers list. They'd be there whether it's against guard, necrons or MEQ. The ability to snipe out the scary parts of blobs is something you're over looking. Barrage can take out that commissar or melta gun pretty easily, especially the Griffon. Another assumption you make is that you can see the barrage weapons to shoot at them.

Flamer PCS??? Really??? That's 5 guardsmen in a Chimera. You should have just enough firepower in your list to deal with that before you close in for Flamers to become dangerous.

Who said anything about them being in a chimera? So now you've changed from "you can't deal with 100 men" to "you should be able to deal with 100 men before flamers". It's also a key to note that multiple versions of these in your back field will cause havoc for your scoring units.

My point is, advancing guardsmen aren't scary to a leaf-blower list.

Have you played leafblower against a real horde ever? I doubt it from what you are theorizing.

So your Flamer PCS is on foot? I'm sure I'll find a few superflouos Lasgun shots to take care of them. In a Chimera they might even get to use their flamers on my infantry if I don't actively target them first. On foot they almost certainly die before doing any harm.

Your multiple Flamer PCS get into my backfield? I guess you have me confused. How is that supposed to work?

And on the Manticore; I was very clear that its cost is a specific problem against foot IG, not in general. You pay for S10 when S5 would do just as well.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Aleinikov wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Aleinikov wrote:
I...

Problems are the lack of mobility - the Chimerae can focus down the officers then tank shock the LD8 blobs for infinity days.

My Armored Battlegroup list routinely tank-shocks enemies off of the board, because of 10 or so tests on the main enemy unit if I coordinate right.

Yes, mobility can be a problem, fully agree. Dark-/ Eldar or the like can be trouble to get a hold of. Mech IG though isn't exactly mobile either. Sooner rather than later those tanks will have nowhere to go, and thats only if they sacrifice firepower for mobility.

Can you explain how you focus fire down 3-5 sergeants plus commissar with Chimerea? Keep in mind the commissar will do the best he can to hide behind terrain, while trailing behind the unit.

I arm my advancing blobs with Meltaguns and Meltabombs not least because I want to stop tank shocks. It'd be extremely difficult for you to find a tank shock route without running into a Meltagun or Bomb. There are few easier ways for foot guard to kill tanks than death-or-glory. The cost vs benefit works much in favor of the foot Guard.

Certainly, you will only ever get one round of tank-shocking, no infinity days there. Even if one blob runs away (how many tank shocks would that take? Minimum 3 I guess), there should be another blob right behind. Thats 3 Chimerea + content dead for the price of one blob pushed back a few inches. Is that worth it?

You don't focus down the officers in the squads. You focus down commands squads and the like, to remove the GBiTF order.

As for meltaguns and meltabombs - it's not that hard to avoid them. Either they're in the front of the blob, in which case they're the first to bite it when bullets fly, or they're in the back and I only have to tank shock like 3 inches into the blob and contact the lead man with a lasgun.

EDIT:
Actually, I don't remember if one must move 12" during a tank shock (or at least top speed). If so, then it's harder with Chimeras. A Russ can only ever go 6".

Without having the rulebook in hand, I think you must go over 6" to tank shock, but don't have to go full 12". You may be able to avoid melta sometimes, but I think I can make that difficult most of the time, even without putting too great a risk on getting my melta dudes gunned down.

I see your point on targeting the CCS, but that would mean the blobs roll on LD9 rerollable for the tank shock. I heavily doubt you can shock enough to cause a failed check. And again, a tank that just shocked into a blob is almost certainly dead the next turn.

In general, tank shocking lost some effectiveness in 6th. Failed morale check hurt less, and vehicles that run into the enemy will always die in CC the next turn.

You guys are assuming that the chimeras will even make it that close to be able to tank shock the infantry. Going against probably 15 plus lascannons/autocannons may make that difficult. Even if they do, Death or Glory with a meltagun will make short work of them.

An issue with a list like that though is force concentration, and its vulnerability to blast templates. Sure you could space the men out, but with that many bodies, it might be difficult doing it in your DZ.

It is fun to play with 1-200 guys on the table though, and seeing your opponents face as you deploy your men is priceless :p

seanm222 wrote:
You guys are assuming that the chimeras will even make it that close to be able to tank shock the infantry. Going against probably 15 plus lascannons/autocannons may make that difficult. Even if they do, Death or Glory with a meltagun will make short work of them.

An issue with a list like that though is force concentration, and its vulnerability to blast templates. Sure you could space the men out, but with that many bodies, it might be difficult doing it in your DZ.

It is fun to play with 1-200 guys on the table though, and seeing your opponents face as you deploy your men is priceless :p

Uh; you ever play against a leafblower?

It's like Alienkov has never heard of a Vendetta...

I'll throw in another pitch for the Griffon to battle Chimera spam at 1000pts...


1) It's accurate. 5/9 or 56 % to hit the mark even if it does not see (or be seen by) its target.

2) A hit has 75% chance of at least glancing AV10 side armor. Chance of penetrating is 56%

This is actually better than a LRBT vs the AV12 front armor as the LRBT is less accurate.


While the Chimera-killing powers of a Griffon are not altogether convincing compared to a PiS with a lascannon...

3) ...once the tiny men are out of the can a Griffon is a much better tool than a lascannon to take them out.


Ailaros: Could you post a sample list of what you expect from this guy. Could be helpful as at least I tend to overestimate the number of hulls / tanks / guns / rockets you actually get for 1000pts.

Aleinikov wrote:
Do your Chimeras all have Heavy Flamers? Most Chimeras I have seen in 6th edition have hull HB for the extra (snap) shots.

Of course they still have heavy flamers. Taking the hull HB is an overreaction to 6th edition suddenly allowing something new and everyone rushing to try it out. Once you take a minute to think about it you realize that a snapfire HB is laughably ineffective and you're better off keeping the HF.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Same, sadly, goes for most forgeworld stuff. Not everyone is lucky enough to have stores that widely accept FW, so even though a forgeworld choice may be perfect, not everyone can use it.

Solution: don't play against people who house rule that your army isn't legal. Refusing to discuss FW options makes about as much sense as having a discussion of how to play infantry guard if you hate buying weapon upgrades and refuse to take heavy/special weapons.

 Peregrine wrote:

Aleinikov wrote:
Do your Chimeras all have Heavy Flamers? Most Chimeras I have seen in 6th edition have hull HB for the extra (snap) shots.

Of course they still have heavy flamers. Taking the hull HB is an overreaction to 6th edition suddenly allowing something new and everyone rushing to try it out. Once you take a minute to think about it you realize that a snapfire HB is laughably ineffective and you're better off keeping the HF.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Same, sadly, goes for most forgeworld stuff. Not everyone is lucky enough to have stores that widely accept FW, so even though a forgeworld choice may be perfect, not everyone can use it.

Solution: don't play against people who house rule that your army isn't legal. Refusing to discuss FW options makes about as much sense as having a discussion of how to play infantry guard if you hate buying weapon upgrades and refuse to take heavy/special weapons.

Well I'm sorry but some people literally just don't have the option. I've been trying to get my groups to allow FW for months and they'll have none of it.

If I said I'm not playing unless I get to use FW, I would literally never be able to get a game at all. Ailaros is in a similar situation if I remember correctly. Trust me, if I could be using FW I would, but some areas just aren't open to that. We can beg and plead all we want, but some people just won't allow it

 Griddlelol wrote:
It's like Alienkov has never heard of a Vendetta...

Great. You bring Vendettas against foot guard. Congratulations, you just wasted 130 points on a flyer that will kill less than 20 points of the horde per turn that it is on the board, all while being hard to move around on a board swamped in bodies.

You underestimate the footprint of a huge horde. I don't think you will get to disembark your Flamer unit where you want it. Sure, you can find some real estate to land your Vendetta and burn some Guardsmen, but it certainly won't be were it will really hurt the horde. Then your PCS dies.

Aleinikov wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
It's like Alienkov has never heard of a Vendetta...

Great. You bring Vendettas against foot guard. Congratulations, you just wasted 130 points on a flyer that will kill less than 20 points of the horde per turn that it is on the board, all while being hard to move around on a board swamped in bodies.

You underestimate the footprint of a huge horde. I don't think you will get to disembark your Flamer unit where you want it. Sure, you can find some real estate to land your Vendetta and burn some Guardsmen, but it certainly won't be were it will really hurt the horde. Then your PCS dies.

I gues the difference between how you look at tactics and how most people look is that most plan around making an all comers list. Not by tailoring their list to a specific opponent. Yes I'd bring vendettas vs food guard since I'd bring vendettas vs just about every other opponent I'd come across. They may not be efficient vs a horde or guardsmen but they are against every other opponent I'm likely to come across in a tournament and so aren't going to be left out a list nor the tactics used by that list. You argument that a horde strolling across a table is a force to be reconed with is pretty poor. Those guardsmen just aren't scary anymore.