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Your list needs more guns:

HQ:
CCS, AC --- 60

Troops:
Veterans, 3x melta, Hades drill --- 150
Veterans, 3x melta, Hades drill --- 150

Platoon:
PCS, AC --- 40
Infantry squad, AC --- 60
Infantry squad, AC --- 60
Sabre guns x3, TL AC 120

Fast:
Vulture, TL punnisher cannons --- 155

Heavy:
Medusa --- 100
Medusa --- 100

Total: 995


Still all-foot except for the Vulture (which is awesome at glancing away Chimeras and brutal against light infantry), still has 3-4 "home" scoring units, still has decent non-blast firepower in 8.5 effective ACs, and the drills and Medusas can skip right past glancing and start exploding stuff. And with the Vulture + Sabre guns you've even got some decent AA. And best of all? You can't be accused of list tailoring, since that's pretty much the standard list I'd run at 1000 points.

 Peregrine wrote:
Your list needs more guns:

HQ:
CCS, AC --- 60

Troops:
Veterans, 3x melta, Hades drill --- 150
Veterans, 3x melta, Hades drill --- 150

Platoon:
PCS, AC --- 40
Infantry squad, AC --- 60
Infantry squad, AC --- 60
Sabre guns x3, TL AC 120

Fast:
Vulture, TL punnisher cannons --- 155

Heavy:
Medusa --- 100
Medusa --- 100

Total: 995


Still all-foot except for the Vulture (which is awesome at glancing away Chimeras and brutal against light infantry), still has 3-4 "home" scoring units, still has decent non-blast firepower in 8.5 effective ACs, and the drills and Medusas can skip right past glancing and start exploding stuff. And with the Vulture + Sabre guns you've even got some decent AA. And best of all? You can't be accused of list tailoring, since that's pretty much the standard list I'd run at 1000 points.

>Implying I wouldn't already be running an IA armored company with 5 leman russes if I could take FW
>Implying I wouldn't already own 3 hades breaching drills if we could use forgeworld at my store.
>Implying I wouldn't own 3 Vultures already if I could FREAKING BRING FORGEWORLD

Seriously, I'd take that list in a heartbeat if I could, looks like an incredibly awesome/fluffy krieg list. Only questions I have is that I thought the hades could only be bought by krieg engineers, who can only take shotguns and demo charges, and also that why are the medusas only 100pts? They're 135pts base in the IG codex.

Also, holy crap, are breaching drills only 50pts? I need to pick up DKoK right friggin now.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 mayfist wrote:
Melta with autocannon ? you want to scare him away from your deployment zone, correct ?
I really don't see that working any otherway I like the idea.

And I'll give the lip as long as you don't tell me why you are going for HF on the LR on a list made for taking on mech heavy opponents
If you can flame the guardsmen they are in range to shove various grenades in your ass.

I've never played against another IG player, how odd is that ? It's interesting to see what people come up with.

Well, simply put, a heavy bolter that can only snapfire is borderline useless. A heavy flamer is free, and gives me options if the guy gets too close, or he brings stormtroopers etc. Simply put, it won't fire very often, but when it does, it'll inevitably do more damage than a bolter would. That's the plan at least. We'll see if it's worth taking down the road.

As for melta/autocannon, think of it like a line of pikemen. Ailaros calls it a melta hedge. Same thing basically. I don't want him coming close too quickly. Plus, meltas are cheaper and do a good amount of damage against everything but hordes. And they won't kill the operators like certain weapons.

And this isn't just for killing armor. This is a take all comers type list that I would take, just with the added thought of "What if I draw the leafblower guy". I probably don't need this much AT in my area, but I still think a list like this would serve you well in most situations. Only real problems I see are fliers and maybe massed termis/deepstrikers, but that's about it. And besides, those are rough matchups for foot IG in general, so that's something I'm used to dealing with.

I see, i'm still rather inexperienced with full blown foot lists, hence me digging around Ailaros work.
I like the concept. And I suppose the other platoon is there to contest the middle grounds aye ?

As for the flamer on the LR, definitely food for thought. So much more to learn, so much more to test

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I thought the hades could only be bought by krieg engineers, who can only take shotguns and demo charges

In the DKoK list, yes. However, Hades drills are also available to codex IG, who have to pair them with a veteran squad. It's a difficult burden, but somehow I manage to survive having to follow up the drill with a 3x melta/plasma vet squad (often with demolitions). And did I mention they get to assault and melta bomb things on the turn they arrive, with 10x melta bombs? Demolitions becomes incredibly useful once you get to a point level where you can afford to take it.

and also that why are the medusas only 100pts? They're 135pts base in the IG codex.

Because those are the artillery version, not the tank.

Also, holy crap, are breaching drills only 50pts?

Yep. Second most awesome unit ever, after Marbo.

 Peregrine wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I thought the hades could only be bought by krieg engineers, who can only take shotguns and demo charges

In the DKoK list, yes. However, Hades drills are also available to codex IG, who have to pair them with a veteran squad. It's a difficult burden, but somehow I manage to survive having to follow up the drill with a 3x melta/plasma vet squad (often with demolitions). And did I mention they get to assault and melta bomb things on the turn they arrive, with 10x melta bombs? Demolitions becomes incredibly useful once you get to a point level where you can afford to take it.

and also that why are the medusas only 100pts? They're 135pts base in the IG codex.

Because those are the artillery version, not the tank.

Also, holy crap, are breaching drills only 50pts?

Yep. Second most awesome unit ever, after Marbo.

So you're meaning to tell me if I can sucker my club into playing forgeworld, I can have T7 +3 save medusa field guns with T7 guardsmen, Hades breaching drills for cheaper than chimeras, and not only that, but take them with demo/melta vets with shotties and have them assault anything that looks at me funny?

Jesus man, why don't you just go ahead and stick me in the poorhouse now? Because that's where I'll be if FW becomes regularly accepted around here

My god, it's the Armored Battlegroup thread all over again.

Back OT with Mayfist, we're still figuring out a good way to run foot IG. In no way is this the only way to run Foot guard period, this is just what I've found to be effective. Experiment and try new ideas. There's a lot of different things we haven't tried yet.

Back OT with Mayfist, we're still figuring out a good way to run foot IG. In no way is this the only way to run Foot guard period, this is just what I've found to be effective. Experiment and try new ideas. There's a lot of different things we haven't tried yet.

I figured as much, don't worry

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So you're meaning to tell me if I can sucker my club into playing forgeworld, I can have T7 +3 save medusa field guns with T7 guardsmen

Yep.

(Though don't expect it to last. Before the awful 6th edition artillery rules it was a mediocre unit and FW is probably aware of the hate it's generating, so it will probably at least get a major point increase.)

Hades breaching drills for cheaper than chimeras, and not only that, but take them with demo/melta vets with shotties and have them assault anything that looks at me funny?

Yeah, but don't forget that the Hades is cheap because it can be really inconsistent. It's great when you're facing a Chimera parking lot where it's impossible to miss and you'll often hit multiple targets, but against a less spammy army it often just scatters away uselessly and leaves an expensive vet squad in a suicidal position, while the Chimera bunker would have carried them safely and consistently into battle. Or sometimes it will just sit uselessly in reserve with 100-150 points of troops and not arrive until it's too late.

I don't care, it's a friggin drill that blows crap up. Rule of Cool supersedes logic.

Don't tell me a tin can on treads is superior to that beautiful piece of machinery.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I don't care, it's a friggin drill that blows crap up. Rule of Cool supersedes logic.

Don't tell me a tin can on treads is superior to that beautiful piece of machinery.

Well yeah. I got my first drill based on how awesome it was and only realized later that it's also good at winning games.

(Now it has two friends, including one "drive me closer, I want to hit them with my sword" model.)

 Peregrine wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I don't care, it's a friggin drill that blows crap up. Rule of Cool supersedes logic.

Don't tell me a tin can on treads is superior to that beautiful piece of machinery.

Well yeah. I got my first drill based on how awesome it was and only realized later that it's also good at winning games.

(Now it has two friends, including one "drive me closer, I want to hit them with my sword" model.)

I want to see that model

 mayfist wrote:
I want to see that model

Because this alone should convince you that Chimeras are a silly idea:

Ahaha love it !
Would have been even better if it was the guy on top was waving a sword.

Cheers mate ! Thanks for the pic.

MrMoustaffa wrote:
+ HQ + (170pts)

* Company Command Squad (85pts)
Lascannon, Regimental Standard

* Company Command Squad (85pts)
Lascannon, Regimental Standard

+ Troops + (530pts)

* Infantry Platoon (210pts)
* Infantry Squad: Lascannon, Plasma Gun
* Infantry Squad: Lascannon, Plasma Gun
* Platoon Command Squad: Autocannon

* Infantry Platoon (320pts)
* Infantry Squad: Autocannon, Meltagun
* Infantry Squad: Autocannon, Meltagun
* Infantry Squad: Autocannon, Meltagun
* Infantry Squad: Autocannon, Meltagun
* Platoon Command Squad: Autocannon

+ Heavy Support + (300pts)

* Leman Russ w/heavy flamer (don't give me lip, I've got an idea for them)

* Leman Russ w/heavy flamer

I suppose if lascannon PISs are the answer, it would be make sense to spam them.

I don't know if I feel QUITE comfortable abandoning conscripts altogether, though. Before I started running them, I got blown off the board, and I'd rather like to not go back to that...

On a related note, though, in my last 500 point game set, the lascannons I brought with my non-conscript infantry did pretty well. I just got back from an apocalypse game today (yes, there will be a shoddy apocalypse battle report), and I brought something akin to what I was talking about before. Two infantry platoons, each with a PCS+lascannon, 2x PIS+melta/lascannon, 20 conscripts with SiTNW, along with some other stuff, and it all worked pretty well, actually. Even with the lascannons getting picked off over time, the lascannons slowly but steadily racked up the kills. Perhaps 7 lascannons really is enough anti-tank for this points level.

What I'm now starting to think about is something like...

CCS - fist, standard, lascannon,
Priest - eviscerator

Stormtroopers (5) - 2x flamers

PCS - lascannon, chenkov
PIS - lascannon, meltagun
PIS - lascannon, meltagun
Conscripts (20) - Send in The Next Wave!

PCS - lascannon
PIS - lascannon, meltagun
PIS - lascannon, meltagun
PIS - lascannon, meltagun

With 30 extra points to throw around, maybe on a MoO (if my CCS feels survivable), or on an OotF (if I decide I hate fliers just that much more), or something.

Whatever my opponent is bringing, 8 lascannons (sometimes twin-linked) is going to be tough to stare down, and they can't get close or else melta hedge. 50 infantry might be enough to hold an objective at this points level, and I still have respawning conscripts for another. Plus, I've still got just enough points for my objective-clearing stormies.

 Ailaros wrote:
Whatever my opponent is bringing, 8 lascannons (sometimes twin-linked) is going to be tough to stare down

I don't think this is really the case. Even if we assume you get BiD on every gun every turn that's still only about 2.5 glances or better against Chimeras. Killing one Chimera per turn isn't going to stop them from rolling up into heavy flamer range and wiping/tank shocking entire squads off the table, and it's going to be tough to win a long-range fight when three of your LCs are on fragile command squads. You've got a lot of points tied up in things that don't help against Chimera walls (assault CCS/priest, conscripts, etc) and even if your lascannons get lucky you still don't have much ability to push forward and claim your opponent's objectives.

And of course if your opponent brings anti-infantry units (after all, if you get to prepare for them, they get to prepare for you) things can get really ugly. Griffon spam makes those vital command squads disappear, punisher cannon Vultures remove entire infantry squads at a time, etc.


Consider the following:

CCS (4x melta), Chimera

Veterans (3x melta), Chimera
Veterans (3x melta), Chimera
Veterans (3x melta), Chimera

Vulture, TL punisher cannons
Vulture, TL punisher cannons

Griffon

995 points with four aggressive Chimeras, two AV 12 flyers you have no answer to, and a barrage sniper you can't even attempt to shoot if there's any LOS blocking terrain. And that's assuming I keep my squads full of melta guns on the assumption that I could be facing Leman Russes.

That math seems a bit off. 8 lascannons that are twin-linked generate 6 hits. 4+ to pen.
On average it's 1 glance and 3 pens.
Are you assuming 5+ cover vs all hits?

How about this:
2x CCS, both with master of ordnance (S9 AP3 indirect with unlimited range)
3x Platoon Command with krak grenades
6x Infantry with lascannons
3x Heavy Weapon Teams with lascannons (9 lascannons)

1000 points on the nose.
Deploy CCS out of range and rain down S9 pieplate ordnance.
Take 15 lascannon shots.
Run forward 3 units of 5 men with krak grenades (only 35 points) and force your opponent to deal with them.

I think part of the key is the masters of ordnance. He gives you the range edge and will punish anything bunched behind a defensive line.

When it doubt, try bigger guns with longer range.

-Matt

What about Manticores+Vendettas? 3 Maticores, 3 Vendettas, 1 Aegis, and problem solved. There is no way that a mech army could survive this combo for the end of the 3rd turn. Throw in some Infantry Squads with Lascannons only, 1-2 CCS and the army is ready to kill some mech.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
That math seems a bit off. 8 lascannons that are twin-linked generate 6 hits. 4+ to pen.
On average it's 1 glance and 3 pens.
Are you assuming 5+ cover vs all hits?

How about this:
2x CCS, both with master of ordnance (S9 AP3 indirect with unlimited range)
3x Platoon Command with krak grenades
6x Infantry with lascannons
3x Heavy Weapon Teams with lascannons (9 lascannons)

1000 points on the nose.
Deploy CCS out of range and rain down S9 pieplate ordnance.
Take 15 lascannon shots.
Run forward 3 units of 5 men with krak grenades (only 35 points) and force your opponent to deal with them.

I think part of the key is the masters of ordnance. He gives you the range edge and will punish anything bunched behind a defensive line.

When it doubt, try bigger guns with longer range.

-Matt

The problem is the HW squads will get blown to pieces. They can be ID, they can run, and cost quite a lot.

 mayfist wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
That math seems a bit off. 8 lascannons that are twin-linked generate 6 hits. 4+ to pen.
On average it's 1 glance and 3 pens.
Are you assuming 5+ cover vs all hits?

How about this:
2x CCS, both with master of ordnance (S9 AP3 indirect with unlimited range)
3x Platoon Command with krak grenades
6x Infantry with lascannons
3x Heavy Weapon Teams with lascannons (9 lascannons)

1000 points on the nose.
Deploy CCS out of range and rain down S9 pieplate ordnance.
Take 15 lascannon shots.
Run forward 3 units of 5 men with krak grenades (only 35 points) and force your opponent to deal with them.

I think part of the key is the masters of ordnance. He gives you the range edge and will punish anything bunched behind a defensive line.

When it doubt, try bigger guns with longer range.

-Matt

The problem is the HW squads will get blown to pieces. They can be ID, they can run, and cost quite a lot.

The ID isn't that big of a problem. They have a 12" range advantage vs the build of the chimera parking lot, and will get a cover save from the platoons in front of them.
Yes, they will go down, and they may fall back. But it isn't an instant death thing, it does take some effort, and you're only losing 105 points.
Use the range advantage to force your opponents parking lot to move toward you to get those shots. And if anyone is falling back or re-grouping, take that round of movement to take pot shots at flyers, since you're only hitting on 6's anyway.
I'm ok with losing the weapon teams first. After I've popped your chimmeras, I'm going to need all those ~60 lasguns that you've been ignoring to kill your infantry.

Normally I'd agree with you, but mech guard is packed with a weapon that may as well be tailor made to kill heavy weapon teams.

You'll stop a few of them, but you won't stop all of them. Inevitably, at least a few will survive to unload some pain into your teams and tear them up. And if you're getting cover from your infantry, so is he. Trust me, I've learned that the hard way.

MoO? Manticores? I'm just wondering with the large blast over a parking lot with ordnance...Marbo for sure...Plasma platoon units in the back that get 12" out?

Manticores dude.

 TheCaptain wrote:
Manticores dude.

Yeah, Manticores hit their target. MoO doesn't. Pretty simple decision, really.

Actually, my MoO regularly hits, (or scatters into something else, and hits0 He's actually fairly accurate when you use an order the Bring it down and the vehicle is in line of sight.

Plus, he's only 30 points. He really only needs to hit something once to make his points back. He's the cheapest way to put put a barrage template on just about anything.

 Peregrine wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
Manticores dude.

Yeah, Manticores hit their target. MoO doesn't. Pretty simple decision, really.

And when your target is a parking lot, that 30 points is well spent.
My Company Command orders it's self to bring it down.
Then I've got an unlimited range S9 AP3, on the 2nd floor of the units, they are safe from the indirect.

-Matt

 kestril wrote:
Actually, my MoO regularly hits, (or scatters into something else, and hits0 He's actually fairly accurate when you use an order the Bring it down and the vehicle is in line of sight.

Plus, he's only 30 points. He really only needs to hit something once to make his points back. He's the cheapest way to put put a barrage template on just about anything.

Spend 30 points on something that might get lucky and hit something, maybe making its points back, or spend 30 points making a useful unit more useful: hmm...

Unless you've got 30 points laying around doing nothing (not likely) you should probably find a better use for points.

 Ailaros wrote:

Whatever my opponent is bringing, 8 lascannons (sometimes twin-linked) is going to be tough to stare down, and they can't get close or else melta hedge.

 Peregrine wrote:

I don't think this is really the case. Even if we assume you get BiD on every gun every turn that's still only about 2.5 glances or better against Chimeras.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
That math seems a bit off. 8 lascannons that are twin-linked generate 6 hits. 4+ to pen.
On average it's 1 glance and 3 pens.
Are you assuming 5+ cover vs all hits?

Just throwing some objective reasoning into the above discussion.

First off, assuming tl, HawaiiMatt's math is correct. But who cares about the average of how many glances or pens you are expected to get in a large number of experiments? It really does not give you any meaningful information. You want to stop those chimeras, so what are some relevant probabilities of doing so?

Assuming no twin-linking, no cover saves, the probability of 8 las HWT destroying at least one chimera in a single round of shooting is 0.636280068. At least two? 0.14116022. At least 3? 0.02353993.

Is it enough? Depends on the dice gods.

My personal (and subjective) opinion? (keeping with Ailaros' general theme)

Get some more heavy weapons in there, preferably that can hit side/rear av10 armour. My first thought was las sentinels. Dropping one las/melta squad and you can get two las sentinels with 10 points leftover. If you can find an extra 10 points, the math shifts in favour of 3 ac sentinels over 2 las sentinels versus av10 and av11.

But all foot? Obviously melta stormies, or marbo are options, marbo has my vote, as he costs about half, and can possibly hit a couple of hulls. Stormies are likely to get toasted after acing a single hull. Suprisingly, the probabilities are not so bad on a harker squad with a hb, and 3 gl, vs av10/11, but the squad costs 150 points....

TheCaptain wrote:
Spend 30 points on something that might get lucky and hit something, maybe making its points back, or spend 30 points making a useful unit more useful: hmm...

Unless you've got 30 points laying around doing nothing (not likely) you should probably find a better use for points.

The thing is, with the new barrage rules, he is useful, and he's the cheapest way to get a high strength barrage template on the board. The stuff that's useful (X3 meltaguns, come to mind, or 2 plasma guns) are only going to get one or two shots off anyways before the squad gets charged or shot off the board, while the MoO is usually stuck in the back somewhere and able to call in a template turn after turn. Yes, he's 30 points, but he usually has two to three turns to hit something and make his points back. Unlike my meltas, which have to get close and only get one shot. Useful, yes, but 30 points in melta guns are no more reliable than the MoO, more importantly, three melta guns can't fire at a target all the way across the board.

Oh, and call me crazy, but calling in lasers from space is fun. Yeah, fun.

 kestril wrote:

The thing is, with the new barrage rules, he is useful, and he's the cheapest way to get a high strength barrage template on the board. The stuff that's useful (X3 meltaguns, come to mind, or 2 plasma guns) are only going to get one or two shots off anyways before the squad gets charged or shot off the board, while the MoO is usually stuck in the back somewhere and able to call in a template turn after turn. Yes, he's 30 points, but he usually has two to three turns to hit something and make his points back. Unlike my meltas, which have to get close and only get one shot. Useful, yes, but 30 points in melta guns are no more reliable than the MoO, more importantly, three melta guns can't fire at a target all the way across the board.

Oh, and call me crazy, but calling in lasers from space is fun. Yeah, fun.

The bigest problem with the MoO is that his shot will scatter, no matter what. Except if you put him into LoS, then the enemy will instagib him with the Command Squad and GG.

And assuming that an MoO will do something useful just because your MoO works fine is weird. I mean, when I feel crazy and bring an MoO for my army, then the guy does roughly 50% of the damage... in my units .

 AtoMaki wrote:

 kestril wrote:

The thing is, with the new barrage rules, he is useful, and he's the cheapest way to get a high strength barrage template on the board. The stuff that's useful (X3 meltaguns, come to mind, or 2 plasma guns) are only going to get one or two shots off anyways before the squad gets charged or shot off the board, while the MoO is usually stuck in the back somewhere and able to call in a template turn after turn. Yes, he's 30 points, but he usually has two to three turns to hit something and make his points back. Unlike my meltas, which have to get close and only get one shot. Useful, yes, but 30 points in melta guns are no more reliable than the MoO, more importantly, three melta guns can't fire at a target all the way across the board.

Oh, and call me crazy, but calling in lasers from space is fun. Yeah, fun.

The bigest problem with the MoO is that his shot will scatter, no matter what. Except if you put him into LoS, then the enemy will instagib him with the Command Squad and GG.

And assuming that an MoO will do something useful just because your MoO works fine is weird. I mean, when I feel crazy and bring an MoO for my army, then the guy does roughly 50% of the damage... in my units .

It's not super easy to "instagib" a unit with unlimited range. 3D6/2D6 minus his BS of 4 is not a whole lot of scatter. The squad can order itself to bring it down, and twin-link the MoO.
So on average you're looking at a 3" to 6" scatter, with a 5" template. If the Chimeras aren't bunched up, those 15 Lascannons (which will drop to 6 lascannons pretty quick) will be getting in some nice side shots vs AV10.
I'm sorry, but aren't we trying to beat a wall of Chimeras with Foot Guard? Most of the suggestions I see are how to defeat a chimera wall, but are glossing over the "with foot guard" part.
Can you kill the Command Platoon? Sure, it's not that tough, but it does take some effort. Now you're looking at 5 squads (2 command platoons and 3 heavy weapon teams) that all have to get taken care of.
If you deploy deep, that's not as easy as it sounds.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

I'm sorry, but aren't we trying to beat a wall of Chimeras with Foot Guard? Most of the suggestions I see are how to defeat a chimera wall, but are glossing over the "with foot guard" part.

We are trying to beat mechguard, not just a wall of Chimeras. And mechguard includes things like Manticores, Vendettas/Valkyres, Russes, and all sorts of other stuff what isn't really scared to reach your "unlimited range CCS".

And we don't want to beat it with a full-foot guard. Or at least IIRC when I last talked about "foot guard" on this forum, others were quick to reply that "6th ed foot guard = hybrid guard".

Also, twin-linking on a Blast weapon that always scatters is no longer a very cool thing, since you can only re-roll if you rolled an arrow on the scatter dice. No re-rolls for you if you rolled a hit (but you will scatter anyways)!