Just how good is this thing in 6th edition I get that its a flyer with good armor, but it just doesnt seem to offer too much.

Anyone got another perspective?

Vendettas are the most criminally undercosted unit in all of 40k.

130 pts for a AV12 flyer that has 3 TL-lascannons with BS3. Its criminal, criminal I tell you!

It's the best way to take down other fliers in the codex, which makes it neat if you're trying to dominate the air game. That it's also a transport allows you to play air cav, which is a style some people like.

Of course, 3 TLLCs aren't too shabby either, but the fact that they don't start on the board, and probably won't be arriving until turn 2 or 3 and likely spending a turn or two off the board, and their firepower does leave a bit to be desired.

They're pretty tough to kill, though. The problem is that, depending on the kind of list your opponent plays, they're also possible to ignore.

Vendettas are like violence. If they don't solve your problems, use more.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Vendettas are the most criminally undercosted unit in all of 40k.

130 pts for a AV12 flyer that has 3 TL-lascannons with BS3. Its criminal, criminal I tell you!

You forgot the part where it can hover, and depending on your reading of the rules, outflank. And it comes in squadrons.

The Vendetta isn't an I-Win button by any stretch, but its silly good for its points cost. At this point its almost psychological weapon, because your opponent will tend to throw everything at them as soon as they arrive on the board for fear that it will single handedly bring down all of his/her hard targets.

Still - its just 3 tllc and the troops it transports are exactly killie considering how squishie they are.

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
Still - its just 3 tllc and the troops it transports are exactly killie considering how squishie they are.

3 TLLC for 130 points on an incredibly resilient platform isn't "just", that's flippin' amazing. It's criminally undercosted even without the transport space.

They are arguably the best Anti-vehicle unit in the game. If only broadsides had sky fire...

They are kind of useless against massed infantry though. With the meta changing away from vehicles they will lose some of their punch.

Compare the cost to a HWS with 3 lascannons. Then consider that its Twin-linked, and is only hit be shooting on 6s, is immune to being assaulted, can be squadroned, can outflank, and on top of that can carry a Veteran squad in to acurately apply meltafire.

The Vendetta should easily cost 180 pts.

3 TLLC's arriving on turn 2 or 3 that dont score or contest. Youre getting 2 or 3 turns of shooting. I do like that I can pretty much hit anywhere on the table though. I get that its useful, but I just dont see it as that overcosted or deserving of the hate. I think its a carry over from 5th.

It was undercosted then and its even more so in 6th.

With accuracy of 75%, its going to get between 2 and 3 hits a turn almost garunteed. Against side armor and sometimes rear armor.

IG also have the ability to boost their reserve rolls. So its a 2+ to come in.



Its stupidly reliable anti-tank thats very difficult to shoot down.

Kevlar wrote:They are arguably the best Anti-vehicle unit in the game

Oh, come now, it's not even the best anti-vehicle unit in the codex. BB medusas will kill vehicles faster, and really anything with Ap1 or the melta rule is going to do the job better.

I mean, for only 105 points you get a pair of melta stormtroopers. Assuming they land within 6" of their target (which is the most likely outcome with airborne assault), they're going to blow up a chimera nearly 2/3ds of the time and a land raider 1/3rd of the time. The vendetta does that 1/3rd and 1/8th respectively.

I like lascannons, but they're not the best anti-tank weapons in the game.

Grey Templar wrote:The Vendetta should easily cost 180 pts.

I agree that the vendetta should be more expensive, but that's because of their transport capability. Turn the vendetta into just a gunboat, and I don't think it needs to be THAT much more expensive than it is right now.

Really, the problem with vendettas being so much better than HWSs is a problem wit HWSs, not with vendettas.

It's stupid good. I always take 3 in my Aircav list.

If you bring 1, you'll see that it's a quite good unit to have on your side.

If you bring 2, you'll experience a significant power-boost in your list, and its mobility.

Bring 3 and you're mean.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Compare the cost to a HWS with 3 lascannons. Then consider that its Twin-linked, and is only hit be shooting on 6s, is immune to being assaulted, can be squadroned, can outflank, and on top of that can carry a Veteran squad in to acurately apply meltafire.

The Vendetta should easily cost 180 pts.

The HWS is also a troop choice that doesn't take up a FOC slot. Not disagreeing with you on that it deserves a point increase, but there's perks to the HWS squad too.

 daedalus wrote:
but there's perks to the HWS squad too.

they die as fast as you can deploy them counts as a perk, right?

As others have said, the Vendetta is one of the most undercosted, if not the most undercosted unit in the game, and is on my short list for the most powerful unit/model for its points in 40k. As others have mentioned, you get 3 Twin Linked Lascannons on an AP12 body that is only ever hit on 6's, has the option of gaining a 5+ cover save at the expense of having to snapfire next turn (trust me, its better to save the bird and snapfire than to loose it altogether), and it has a transport capacity. Oh, and it can hover to keep you from flying off the board on a crucial turn.

I think it's also the fact that with new 6th edition Flier rules, they are also pretty durable. 130 points for 3 TL LC, on an AV12 flier, that can transport troops (in my meta, usually melta vets), and with the flier rules requires snap-shots to take down for the most part.

Oh, and you can take 3 of them in one FOC slot for 390 points, they can out-flank, and can't be assaulted. I call that a win. And really, with not a whole lot competing for the Fast Attack slot....it's a pretty cheap and useful solution to adding MORE redundancy AT wise

Vendettas actually lost the ability to outflank with the last FAQ, so it's not as easy to get side/rear. As someone who uses them regularly, I too don't really get the hate. They're good, but they don't deserve the kind of attention they get from the 40k community in my experience with them. Then again I do roll horribly so that might be factoring into my opinion.

Also, it takes a very balls-out player to use those things as transports. If you scatter with the grav chute insertion, every model takes a dangerous terrain test and with our crappy IG armour saves, it hurts.

No they didn't.

They Errata says the Scout rule doesn't give them a Scout move. They still gain Outflank(because the FAQ didn't remove the Scout special rule)

I have seven for mass lols in my elysians.....but they ain't that much fun to use tbh.....prefer one or two at most

 Grey Templar wrote:
No they didn't.

They Errata says the Scout rule doesn't give them a Scout move. They still gain Outflank(because the FAQ didn't remove the Scout special rule)

It specifically says Scout has no effect on the unit, and that's how they outflank.

Yeah, if it says that a rule has not effect, that means ALL of the rule has no effect, not just the parts you wouldn't mind losing.

If the parent clause is removed, it removes all child clauses as well.

I've always wanted to put three units of Ogryns in Vendettas...

Drake118 wrote:
I've always wanted to put three units of Ogryns in Vendettas...

Vendettas and Valkyries can't carry Ogryns, it says this in the codex.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
but there's perks to the HWS squad too.

they die as fast as you can deploy them counts as a perk, right?

Our static gunline infantry hoard player must take HWS to a sense of scope unseen by the outside world, but typically most of the people I see him play against simply don't have the dakka to cope with it. I mean, sure, they get a lot of them by the end of the game, but the amount of punishment he deals out in response is pretty spectacular

Don't get me wrong, I prefer Vendettas myself. I have two and they're basically an auto-include. I also know I flinch every time I see three squads of las HWS set up behind me in a ADL.

As I was reading this thread I kept thinking:
"The original poster has to be trolling!"

I won't beat a dead horse here and express how good the unit is, that's been done.

I will say that I will NEVER take a Guard list without at least one of them if winning is even 5% of my plans. The Vendetta is a powergamer/waac/competative/tournament/casual-competative player's dream come true.

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
3 TLLC's arriving on turn 2 or 3 that dont score or contest. Youre getting 2 or 3 turns of shooting. I do like that I can pretty much hit anywhere on the table though. I get that its useful, but I just dont see it as that overcosted or deserving of the hate. I think its a carry over from 5th.

Storm Talon is 150 points for 2 TLLC and cannot be taken in squadrons. Yes, Vendettas are OP. I don't care what your opinion is, they are the best flyer point for point in the game.

It really makes no sense. How much does an armored sentinel pay for a twin linked lascannon?

So take the base cost of a valkyrie and add in the cost for three twin linked lascannons and you should be paying that for a vendetta.

Kevlar wrote:
It really makes no sense. How much does an armored sentinel pay for a twin linked lascannon?

So take the base cost of a valkyrie and add in the cost for three twin linked lascannons and you should be paying that for a vendetta.

Conversely, perhaps you pay too much for that sentinel.

RayND wrote:

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
3 TLLC's arriving on turn 2 or 3 that dont score or contest. Youre getting 2 or 3 turns of shooting. I do like that I can pretty much hit anywhere on the table though. I get that its useful, but I just dont see it as that overcosted or deserving of the hate. I think its a carry over from 5th.

Storm Talon is 150 points for 2 TLLC and cannot be taken in squadrons. Yes, Vendettas are OP. I don't care what your opinion is, they are the best flyer point for point in the game.

1 TLLC for 150points*

and a TLAC.

And Armor 11, 2 Hull Points.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
Vendettas actually lost the ability to outflank with the last FAQ, so it's not as easy to get side/rear. As someone who uses them regularly, I too don't really get the hate. They're good, but they don't deserve the kind of attention they get from the 40k community in my experience with them. Then again I do roll horribly so that might be factoring into my opinion.

Also, it takes a very balls-out player to use those things as transports. If you scatter with the grav chute insertion, every model takes a dangerous terrain test and with our crappy IG armour saves, it hurts.

Mostly because they're ridiculously undercosted. In terms of rules they're outclassed by Stormravens, but at least you're paying a reasonable amount for those.

So a unit that has three extremely long ranged and powerful anti-tank weapons (which are also incredibly accurate), extremely hard to hit in the current environment, and able to carry one of the best troop choices in the game is considered to be balanced?

I am going to make a thread in proposed rules for my hammerhead. Same points, but carries 12 firewarriors, has 3 Twinlinked railguns, and is still a skimmer. Anyone want to take odds on how fast it'd get called on being an overpowered fan-spank piece of trash?

LC hws and Medusa die to a stiff breeze, both units are glass cannons. The vendettas is durable and has very reliable firepower against av 11, 12, & 13. IG as a codex has plenty of cheap ac for av10 and 11, and has cheap melta for av14. It's one of the best units in the game, and has great synergy with the rest of the ig codex.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:

Drake118 wrote:
I've always wanted to put three units of Ogryns in Vendettas...

Vendettas and Valkyries can't carry Ogryns, it says this in the codex.

I just thought that Ogyrns counted as 2 models for transport purposes, but I don't have a codex handy anymore, so maybe I'm wrong. Even if I am wrong, I still wanna run 3 units of Ogryns in Vendettas, lol.

For some reason I just imagine a bunch of Ogryn falling to their deaths as they try using a standard guardsman's parachute.

Drake118 wrote:

 creeping-deth87 wrote:

Drake118 wrote:
I've always wanted to put three units of Ogryns in Vendettas...

Vendettas and Valkyries can't carry Ogryns, it says this in the codex.

I just thought that Ogyrns counted as 2 models for transport purposes, but I don't have a codex handy anymore, so maybe I'm wrong. Even if I am wrong, I still wanna run 3 units of Ogryns in Vendettas, lol.

Yeah, but Ogryn are explicitly forbidden from riding in Vendettas/Valks. Just like Terminators are forbidden from riding in Rhinos or Razorbacks.

The Vendetta is one of the best units in the game. In 5th edition it was good, if somewhat vulnerable, but it was not priced with the new Flyer rules in mind, so it essentially went from being good to amazing for free when 6th edition rolled around and it gained Hard to Hit.

It's not an overwhelmingly broken unit (the only one of those that I'm aware of is St. Celestine), but it's definitely one of the strongest units in the game for its cost and really overshadows the other Fast Attack choices in Codex: Imperial Guard as a result-- a shame, since prior to 6th edition this section was quite well-balanced internally.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:In terms of rules they're outclassed by Stormravens, but at least you're paying a reasonable amount for those.

Yes, but vendettas are a fair bit worse than stormravens, so you'd expect them to cost a fair bit less. If guard had the ability to assault ramp blood talon dreadnoughts or death company from their partially-melta-immune fliers, that would be another story, but as it's not, it's not.

daedalus wrote:Conversely, perhaps you pay too much for that sentinel.

Yeah.

I think that's the one thing the vendetta does strongly - it's the only serious place outside of perhaps scout sentinels where you can bring vehicular lascannons. If you want vehicular pie, there's lots of ways to get it, and if you want vehicular volume of fire, there are a few ways to do that to, but there isn't a high-strength multi-shot heavy weapons platform anywhere in HS, so if you want that kind of thing, you basically have just the vendetta.

Well, and scout sentinels, but the two do rather different things.

In any case, my point is that it's not so much that vendettas are great, so much as the other things in the codex that were supposed to compete against them (like armored sentinels and HWSs), were done too crappily, with no other options.

Utterly OT, but are you going to be at Adepticon this year Ailaros?

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
Just how good is this thing in 6th edition I get that its a flyer with good armor, but it just doesnt seem to offer too much.

Anyone got another perspective?

Not sure if trolling

I've always thought the Vendetta was annoyingly under priced, considering as an Ork player I'm paying 130pts for an upgraded Dakkajet, and 145pts for a "naked" DE flyer. Extremely hard for me to actually deal with as an Ork player, they've required considerable focus fire for me to take out, considering their 12/12/12 armour and likely prolific presence.

After seeing the Heldrake cost 175pts I don't think the Vendetta will get a large price increase in the near future.

 Griddlelol wrote:
After seeing the Heldrake cost 175pts I don't think the Vendetta will get a large price increase in the near future.

While I agree that the Vendetta is unlikely to see a price hike anytime soon, I'm confused as to why the Heldrake would cause you to update in that direction. The Heldrake is much worse than the Vendetta and costs substantially more.

Savageconvoy wrote: I am going to make a thread in proposed rules for my hammerhead. Same points, but carries 12 firewarriors, has 3 Twinlinked railguns, and is still a skimmer. Anyone want to take odds on how fast it'd get called on being an overpowered fan-spank piece of trash?

At least you'd be paying 180pts+ for it...

Kingsley wrote:It's not an overwhelmingly broken unit (the only one of those that I'm aware of is St. Celestine)...

Out of interest, why St. Celestine? She seems good, but no more annoying than, say, Thrawn, who's also scoring. Not saying you're wrong, but curious about your opinion on her

Shas'o_Longshot wrote:

Kingsley wrote:It's not an overwhelmingly broken unit (the only one of those that I'm aware of is St. Celestine)...

Out of interest, why St. Celestine? She seems good, but no more annoying than, say, Thrawn, who's also scoring. Not saying you're wrong, but curious about your opinion on her

Justicar Thawn can also be annoying, but he is tempered by being an expensive upgrade to a unit that is often considered mediocre. St. Celestine is extremely inexpensive for her statline and abilities, and her ability to resurrect synergizes outstandingly well with the Slay the Warlord secondary objective as well as with many Warlord Traits. As a result she can be very frustrating to deal with. When you consider her minimal point cost, things really look absurd-- IMO St. Celestine would be a good buy at 200 points, much less her actual cost of 115!

Comparing Vendetta to LC HWT or LC Sentinel is just silly. HWTs and Sentinels are very bad units for their cost.

About saying Vendettas are most OP unit...that is also silly IMHO. Just read through GK, Necrons, SW, Chaos codices and you can find many units which are widely considered to be "OP". And yes, all of the "OP" units are used very often and you are most likely going to face them when playing against one of those armies. Vendetta is just one of the best units currently in the game, but no way the best or the most OP. Again, before you begin to argue with me, just read through another codices, there are MANY units which are stronger or equally efficient. Warhammer is far from a balanced game.

 Lothar wrote:
Again, before you begin to argue with me, just read through another codices, there are MANY units which are stronger or equally efficient. Warhammer is far from a balanced game.

Citation needed. Long Fangs are the only thing that comes to mind, there's certainly nothing as obviously crazy in the Chaos Codex. Vendettas are stronger than Psyflemen and better than Forgefiends.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
Again, before you begin to argue with me, just read through another codices, there are MANY units which are stronger or equally efficient. Warhammer is far from a balanced game.

Citation needed. Long Fangs are the only thing that comes to mind, there's certainly nothing as obviously crazy in the Chaos Codex. Vendettas are stronger than Psyflemen and better than Forgefiends.

Double citation needed, considering Vendetta's are better than most except for longfangs (Which has a different issue) point for point.

I think that Vendettas are considered the most OP unit is because they synch so well with Vets.

Now if Purifiers could fire a template weapon that drops Paladins in the hole it makes...

Currently though, the negative for having a flying transport is almost nonexistent because skyfire is so limited or expensive. And being able to deploy the squad the turn they come in helps too.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
Again, before you begin to argue with me, just read through another codices, there are MANY units which are stronger or equally efficient. Warhammer is far from a balanced game.

Citation needed. Long Fangs are the only thing that comes to mind, there's certainly nothing as obviously crazy in the Chaos Codex. Vendettas are stronger than Psyflemen and better than Forgefiends.

It is very subjective, which unit is OP, which is not. I will write you a quick list of units, which the other players are thinking to be OP (based on posts I read on various blogs or forums).

Chaos codex? Sorcerer - cheap lvl 3 psyker. Havocs with ACs. Helldrake. T5 marines. T5 obliterators.
Grey knights? Purifier spam. Coteaz for beeing too cheap. Warrior acolytes - again, too cheap, good for psyback spam. Psyfledread - 135 points for 4 TL BS4 S8 shots. Storm raven.
Wolves? As you mentioned - Long fangs. Grey hunters (compare them to other marines). Runepriest (after psychic hood nerf second best psyker defence after eldars). Thunder wolves.
Necrons? Flyer spam. Warriors with their auto-glances. Stormlord. Mind shacle scarabs.
Daemons? White dwarf units.
Eldars? Eldrad. Harlies.
Sisters? Saint Celestine.
Blood angels? Sanguary priests. Mephiston.
Imperial guard? Vendettas. (before 6th edition, many players also hated hydras)
Tau? I do not think people are bitching about any units from this codex

 Lothar wrote:
Tau? I do not think people are bitching about any units from this codex

I got told how cheap and OP crisis suits and broadsides are a few weeks ago. Though I think that was just an awesome day and I happened to kill his DP in one Railgun shot.

Oh, and the Tetra. People get really upset when they can't kill an A10 open-topped vehicle with no weapons for some reason.

 Lothar wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
Again, before you begin to argue with me, just read through another codices, there are MANY units which are stronger or equally efficient. Warhammer is far from a balanced game.

Citation needed. Long Fangs are the only thing that comes to mind, there's certainly nothing as obviously crazy in the Chaos Codex. Vendettas are stronger than Psyflemen and better than Forgefiends.

It is very subjective, which unit is OP, which is not. I will write you a quick list of units, which the other players are thinking to be OP (based on posts I read on various blogs or forums).

Chaos codex? Sorcerer - cheap lvl 3 psyker. Havocs with ACs. Helldrake. T5 marines. T5 obliterators.
Grey knights? Purifier spam. Coteaz for beeing too cheap. Warrior acolytes - again, too cheap, good for psyback spam. Psyfledread - 135 points for 4 TL BS4 S8 shots. Storm raven.
Wolves? As you mentioned - Long fangs. Grey hunters (compare them to other marines). Runepriest (after psychic hood nerf second best psyker defence after eldars). Thunder wolves.
Necrons? Flyer spam. Warriors with their auto-glances. Stormlord. Mind shacle scarabs.
Daemons? White dwarf units.
Eldars? Eldrad. Harlies.
Sisters? Saint Celestine.
Blood angels? Sanguary priests. Mephiston.
Imperial guard? Vendettas. (before 6th edition, many players also hated hydras)
Tau? I do not think people are bitching about any units from this codex

So a bunch of powerful units that, with the exception of Long Fangs and Psyflemen, don't match up to the silly level of the Vendetta?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
Again, before you begin to argue with me, just read through another codices, there are MANY units which are stronger or equally efficient. Warhammer is far from a balanced game.

Citation needed. Long Fangs are the only thing that comes to mind, there's certainly nothing as obviously crazy in the Chaos Codex. Vendettas are stronger than Psyflemen and better than Forgefiends.

Double citation needed, considering Vendetta's are better than most except for longfangs (Which has a different issue) point for point.

Grey Hunters, much like Long Fangs, are extremely cost efficient. Vendettas are good to the point that I'm fairly certain that until Sentinels get returned to being part of Company Command Platoons, mine will never see the table again. Hellhounds are at least niche enough to be worth ditching a Vendetta. Nothing draws fire away from my Chimeras quite like an onrushing Fast tank with a torrent S6 flamer. Being able to Flat Out 12" also makes it fairly good at blocking my Medusas from return fire.

But Vendettas are still 30+ points too cheap. They're not as busted as Flamers, but nothing is.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

So a bunch of powerful units that, with the exception of Long Fangs and Psyflemen, don't match up to the silly level of the Vendetta?

That is your opinion. I respect that, but disagree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
Tau? I do not think people are bitching about any units from this codex

I got told how cheap and OP crisis suits and broadsides are a few weeks ago. Though I think that was just an awesome day and I happened to kill his DP in one Railgun shot.

Oh, and the Tetra. People get really upset when they can't kill an A10 open-topped vehicle with no weapons for some reason.

Lol, I have never heard crisis suits and broadsides beeing OP . You are obviously playing against funny people.

Vendettas are definitely one of the most underpriced units in the game today, and are easily the most powerful unit in the Imperial Guard Codex. They can deal with enemy aircraft and vehicles very well, can handle return fire marvelously, and serve as a very effective transport for some inexpensive and pretty well-armed infantry, all at 130pts.

I don't know that there's any profit to be had in arguing whether they're 'the' most broken unit in the game, however; I'm not going to get into the specifics, but I've run across one or two similarly underpriced units in my time.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
For some reason I just imagine a bunch of Ogryn falling to their deaths as they try using a standard guardsman's parachute.

I literally pooped my pants a little laughing after imagining this.... Well played sir, you get all the internet cookies!

Chaos codex? Sorcerer - cheap lvl 3 psyker. Havocs with ACs. Helldrake. T5 marines. T5 obliterators.

Haha no.

Grey knights? Purifier spam. Coteaz for beeing too cheap. Warrior acolytes - again, too cheap, good for psyback spam. Psyfledread - 135 points for 4 TL BS4 S8 shots. Storm raven.

Meh, Purifiers and psyflemen are the closest to it. Melta/Plasma acolytes are just imitation veterans.

Wolves? As you mentioned - Long fangs. Grey hunters (compare them to other marines). Runepriest (after psychic hood nerf second best psyker defence after eldars). Thunder wolves.

Yes

Necrons? Flyer spam. Warriors with their auto-glances. Stormlord. Mind shacle scarabs.

Flyers yes, Warriors no (Are you serious?), Stormlords only a hard counter to pure shooting lists.

Daemons? White dwarf units.

Yeah.

Eldars? Eldrad. Harlies.

Just the Harlequin star, and its easily beaten if you have weapons that ignore cover saves, and maneuver to shoot the big area's where the Archon isn't.

Sisters? Saint Celestine.

She's inexpensive, but OP? Not really.

Blood angels? Sanguary priests. Mephiston.

50+ points and can be shot out, and Mephiston hasn't been OP since 5th.

Imperial guard? Vendettas. (before 6th edition, many players also hated hydras)

Inexpensive veterans, inexpensive chimera's, Weaken Resolve, Manticore, Vendetta's. There's more but those are the main ones.

Like I have already said, the units I listed are considered OP by other players (not me, because I try to avoid using "OP" label).

Veterans, weaken resolve, manticore? I have never seen any post about those units beeing OP. Chimeras? Yes, some people think they are OP, but probably very few (it is a long time I have seen someone bitching about chimeras)

I'd put Celestine on the list because she all but guarantees you'll contest one of your opponent's backfield objectives and there's literally nothing he can do to prevent it other than cover the objective in a 5 in radius mass of infantry.

Celestine should be added because she ignores the games major premise that you can kill your opponents models. There is nothing that can stop her from getting up and denying StW, a KP, and an objective regularly other then poor rolling.

But I want to note that this opinion is only relative to saying vendettas are OP. I currently don't consider anything really OP. Sure point costs vary but them is the breaks when a game publishes 4-6 army books per edition with 15 codexes

 Ailaros wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:In terms of rules they're outclassed by Stormravens, but at least you're paying a reasonable amount for those.

Yes, but vendettas are a fair bit worse than stormravens, so you'd expect them to cost a fair bit less. If guard had the ability to assault ramp blood talon dreadnoughts or death company from their partially-melta-immune fliers, that would be another story, but as it's not, it's not.

I would expect them to be less, but not 70pts less (and arguably the Stormraven's undercosted somewhat now that 6th has improved it too).

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
Again, before you begin to argue with me, just read through another codices, there are MANY units which are stronger or equally efficient. Warhammer is far from a balanced game.

Citation needed. Long Fangs are the only thing that comes to mind, there's certainly nothing as obviously crazy in the Chaos Codex. Vendettas are stronger than Psyflemen and better than Forgefiends.

Double citation needed, considering Vendetta's are better than most except for longfangs (Which has a different issue) point for point.

Personally I'd argue Vendettas are more OP than Long Fangs because they have better weapons (2 less shots admittedly), a better chance to hit (which makes up for the 2 less shots), are far more difficult to kill and can transport a unit to boot... and are 10pts less than Long Fangs. That's just my opinion of course, and it's not like they both aren't undercosted anyway...

Excuse my noobiness, but why must a vendetta snap fire after jinking?

Because of the Evade rule.

Flyers don't have Jink normally. They can choose to Evade, which gives them Jink, but at the expense of only Snap-firing next turn.

Ah ok, thanks a lot

If Vendettas where heavy support choices, I doubt people would bitch.
Vendettas are good, not because what they bring to the table, but the fact that it doesn't take away from your other heavy choices while they do it.
Anything that the pie plates don't kill, vendettas and veterans do.
Now if taking vendettas cost you pie plates, it would have a better balance over the whole army.

-Matt

I think people would still complain, I know I would. Most of the times I've seen IG it's been in low point games where they were able to take cheap Vendettas and cheap Veterans and almost no tanks, if any.

Taking away some of IGs heavy hitters would do a bit to reduce how good it is, but only slightly. It's still way underpriced for how useful of a unit it is.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
If Vendettas where heavy support choices, I doubt people would bitch.
Vendettas are good, not because what they bring to the table, but the fact that it doesn't take away from your other heavy choices while they do it.
Anything that the pie plates don't kill, vendettas and veterans do.
Now if taking vendettas cost you pie plates, it would have a better balance over the whole army.

-Matt

You say that, but the funny thing is that I have a harder time choosing my Fast Attack than I do my Heavies. I normally only have one or two heavies, FA is always full if it's a game I actually want to try to win. Hellhounds (well, a hellhound) for the win. I am like an artist with those things.

Keep in mind that Long Fangs aren't even particularly good anymore. I don't even think they're the best Heavy Support choice in their own Codex in the 6th edition environment, much less the best Heavy Support choice in the game like they once were.

 Ailaros wrote:

Kevlar wrote:They are arguably the best Anti-vehicle unit in the game

Oh, come now, it's not even the best anti-vehicle unit in the codex. BB medusas will kill vehicles faster, and really anything with Ap1 or the melta rule is going to do the job better.

I mean, for only 105 points you get a pair of melta stormtroopers. Assuming they land within 6" of their target (which is the most likely outcome with airborne assault), they're going to blow up a chimera nearly 2/3ds of the time and a land raider 1/3rd of the time. The vendetta does that 1/3rd and 1/8th respectively.

No one uses lascannons to shoot AV 14 so that's unfair.

First of all, Vendettas will *always* outflank. With an astropath they'll be on turn 2 on a 2+ and you'll almost definitely get the side you want. A vendetta will inflict 1.5 penetrating hits on average against AV11, and take 2 hullpoints off instantly from AV10. HWTs aren't 10% as durable as a vendetta, and they'll nearly always be shooting front armour.

You can get 3 of these at 1500 points easily and spend turns 2 and 3 destroying pretty much all of his medium/light armour.

 Testify wrote:
First of all, Vendettas will *always* outflank.

Vendettas can't outflank, so I'm going to stop you right there.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Testify wrote:
First of all, Vendettas will *always* outflank.

Vendettas can't outflank, so I'm going to stop you right there.

Vendettas have Scout USR. This allows them to outflank.

If you're going to correct someone on a rule, please look it up yourself beforehand so that I don't have to dig through *two* rulebooks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
If Vendettas where heavy support choices, I doubt people would bitch.
Vendettas are good, not because what they bring to the table, but the fact that it doesn't take away from your other heavy choices while they do it.
Anything that the pie plates don't kill, vendettas and veterans do.
Now if taking vendettas cost you pie plates, it would have a better balance over the whole army.

-Matt

There's truth to this. At 1500 points you can have 3 Vendettas, 3 Russes and 660 points of troops. That's just unfair

 Testify wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

 Testify wrote:
First of all, Vendettas will *always* outflank.

Vendettas can't outflank, so I'm going to stop you right there.

Vendettas have Scout USR. This allows them to outflank.

The FAQ that basically states Scout does nothing.

Q: What effect, if any, does the Scout special rule have on a Valkyrie or
Vendetta? Will this allow it to enter play in Turn 1 by redeploying 6"
onto the board? (p56)
A: It has no effect.

Note the two seperate questions with 1 answer given.

 Testify wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

 Testify wrote:
First of all, Vendettas will *always* outflank.

Vendettas can't outflank, so I'm going to stop you right there.

Vendettas have Scout USR. This allows them to outflank.

If you're going to correct someone on a rule, please look it up yourself beforehand so that I don't have to dig through *two* rulebooks.

The new Imperial Guard FAQ removes this ability from the Vendetta.

You could have pointed that out in your post...

 Kingsley wrote:
Keep in mind that Long Fangs aren't even particularly good anymore. I don't even think they're the best Heavy Support choice in their own Codex in the 6th edition environment, much less the best Heavy Support choice in the game like they once were.

Uhhhh... I wouldn't really say that. I think they're overstated, but Missile-fangs are still very good for their cost and the only units they have any sort of competition with are Vindicators and maaaaaaybe Predators.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
The FAQ that basically states Scout does nothing.

Q: What effect, if any, does the Scout special rule have on a Valkyrie or
Vendetta? Will this allow it to enter play in Turn 1 by redeploying 6"
onto the board? (p56)
A: It has no effect.

Note the two seperate questions with 1 answer given.

Except it still has the separate Outflank USR.

1) The FAQ clearly puts this in the context of dealing with a Scout redeployment, not other effects granted by having the Scout USR.

2) It's an FAQ, not errata. In 6th edition when GW removes a rule entirely (for example, removing lumbering behemoth) it's done through errata that says "remove the following lines/rules", not through FAQs. Conclusion: this is not a complete removal.

3) FAQs are not official, and you are free to ignore them if you disagree with them.

End result: Valkryies and Vendettas may outflank. End of discussion.

 Peregrine wrote:


3) FAQs are not official, and you are free to ignore them if you disagree with them.

End result: Valkryies and Vendettas may outflank. End of discussion.

Omg, I see this way too much for it to be funny anymore. Good news everyone. FAQs, erratas, rules, and points that GW produces are no longer official. Free reign for everything.

 Peregrine wrote:
[
Except it still has the separate Outflank USR.

Vendetta do not have the Outflank rule.

They have the Scout rule, which allows them to outflank as part of its effects.


Since the Scout rule has no effect upon Vendetta, they cannot use that rule to outflank.




As for FAQs not being official...if your group lets you get away with that, then that's fine. There's nothing that says you can't decide to play the rules however you want.

Most tournaments (and gaming groups that I'm aware of) take the FAQ as being official.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Omg, I see this way too much for it to be funny anymore. Good news everyone. FAQs, erratas, rules, and points that GW produces are no longer official. Free reign for everything.

No, only FAQs are unofficial, according to GW's own rules. Errata = official changes, FAQs = unofficial "this is how we play it in our games, we hope it helps you". Most people tend to play by the FAQs, but that's because usually they're a sensible answer. In this case there is no reason to take the wording literally and do something that clearly wasn't intended when you can just take the relevant part (that you can't redeploy onto the table) and ignore any ambiguity about the rest.

Mindshred wrote:
Since the Scout rule has no effect upon Vendetta, they cannot use that rule to outflank.

See above. This is a ridiculous interpretation of the FAQ that goes against both the context of the FAQ and GW's policy for what they do when they ARE removing a rule entirely (that is, errata). The obvious intent was to only address redeploying onto the table, and trying to twist that into somehow removing the separate outflank aspect is nothing more than rules lawyering.

Most tournaments (and gaming groups that I'm aware of) take the FAQ as being official.

That's nice. GW doesn't take them as being official, and I care far more about GW's opinion on what their rules are than a third-party tournament organizer.

 Peregrine wrote:


That's nice. GW doesn't take them as being official, and I care far more about GW's opinion on what their rules are than a third-party tournament organizer.

So you don't care about how GW plays their game, but you care about how GW plays their game? Way to contradict yourself.

But the FAQ states that Scout has no affect. It doesn't specify that its only referring to the movement. You're just speculating what their intent is, which is nice. But my interpretation is that scout has no affect. Stalemate,

 Savageconvoy wrote:
So you don't care about how GW plays their game, but you care about how GW plays their game? Way to contradict yourself.

No, I care about the published rules of the game. I don't feel obligated to follow FAQs that the authors of the game explicitly state are unofficial and only helpful suggestions which you may or may not wish to use.

But the FAQ states that Scout has no affect. It doesn't specify that its only referring to the movement. You're just speculating what their intent is, which is nice. But my interpretation is that scout has no affect. Stalemate,

Oh FFS. It is really not complicated.

FAQs are for resolving ambiguous situations (for example, "can my Vendetta use its scout move to redeploy onto the table?").

Errata are for changing the rules (for example, "remove the Scout USR from the Vendetta entry on page X").

The fact that this is an FAQ we're talking about says that a complete removal of the rule can not be the intent of it, whatever you can rules lawyer it into "saying".

Ok, just checked the FAQ page and the rule book and over their site. Where do they say that the FAQ section is unofficial? Where does it say I can ignore their rulings?

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Ok, just checked the FAQ page and the rule book and over their site. Where do they say that the FAQ section is unofficial? Where does it say I can ignore their rulings?

I just looked for it, and I guess this has changed with 6th. However it's still a ridiculous interpretation. FAQs may be official now, but rules lawyering can still be ignored.

Ignoring what it says is rulelawyering, not listening what it says. It says scout has no effect therefore scout does not convey any abilities including Outflank. If they INTENDED to only mention the scout move then they would have/ could have/ should have answered twice instead of once.

Honestly I was hoping FAQs were unofficial so all my Tau drones could count as characters for challenges again.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Ignoring what it says it rulelawyering, not listening what it says.

You're right. We shouldn't ignore what it says. We should listen to the fact that GW uses errata to remove rules, and FAQs to clarify ambiguous situations. Since this is an FAQ we're talking about it can not be a complete removal of the rule, therefore Valkyries and Vendettas may continue to outflank.

If you ignore GW's method of handling these situations then you are rules lawyering.

Vendettas are stupid good.

Compare a Stormchicken.

You replace the TLLC and TLMM with 3 (!) TLLCs, slightly lower transport capacity and then drop the points by 70. Don't tell me that's not ridiculous.

I love how in the official FAQ it states clearly that scout has no effect and Peregrine just chooses to blatantly ignore the part that he personally doesn't agree with.

If you choose to intentionally misinterpret the rules then you are a cheater. Calling someone a ruleslawyer for calling you out on your BS doesn't negate the fact that you are cheating.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
I love how in the official FAQ it states clearly that scout has no effect and Peregrine just chooses to blatantly ignore the part that he personally doesn't agree with.

Why is this so hard to understand? The only way GW removes rules entirely is through errata. This is not errata, therefore it can not remove the rule entirely.

Since it can't be a complete removal, the obvious explanation is that you can't use the scout redeployment, the separate outflank USR remains, and "no benefit" is just a sloppy way of saying "you can't redeploy at all". It's ridiculous rules lawyering to try to turn that into "remove the Scout USR entirely".

They aren't removing the rule, just all the effects.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
They aren't removing the rule, just all the effects.

That is pointless nitpicking. If the intent was to remove all of the effects, instead of "all of the effects" as in "any method for redeploying onto the table turn 1 that you can think of", it would be issued as errata. The fact that it was not issued as errata is pretty solid proof that the intent was only to address the redeployment and not outflanking, and the "all effects" bit is just sloppy wording by an author who didn't anticipate this kind of rules lawyering and nitpicking over specific word choices.

TBH, this discussion is just going in circles and I'm done with it. You can rules lawyer against the obvious intent of the FAQ, and I'll just refuse to play against anyone who shares your disregard for common sense.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Honestly I was hoping FAQs were unofficial so all my Tau drones could count as characters for challenges again.

To be fair, Chaos Marines were also hoping all those drones count as characters too.

-Matt

Ok, I have just checked all the UPDATES (they are not called FAQs, that is just a section in them). Everytime GW is changing (removing) some specific rule (lumbering behemoth, autarch master strategist, da vulchas klaws,...) it is doing it by naming the rule and then writing "ignore the reference to..." or "ignore the X sentence..." or "ignore the words in brackets" or "replace the entry with...". It is always writen in Erratas and Amendments.

Then, there is a section of FAQs, which answers specific questions.

Q: What effect, if any, does the Scout special rule have on a Valkyrie or Vendetta? Will this allow it to enter play in Turn 1 by redeploying 6" onto the board? (p56)
A: It has no effect.

This is ONE question. Every specific question has its own entry in the FAQs section. This one is about the Scout rule of the Valkyrie and the possibility to use it for entering the game in Turn 1.

It is clear from this Q and A that the rule has no effect when trying to use it in the way the Q describes. The rule itself remains the same, it is not changed. There is no problem with outflanking the Valkyrie (or Vendetta)

Vendettas are great. Lascannon might not be the ultimate in anti-tank, but the mobility of the vendetta platform gives it the opportunity to reach any target you want, often in the side armour. Sure you can do a similar thing with deep striking stormtroopers, but once you've hit the first target they're unlikely to be around for long enough to hit a second target. You can do this with vendettas, especially if you overcome the "must zoom" mentality and hover about a bit.

Also the model is one of the sweetest and best fitting I've ever worked with from gW, so its woth getting one or 2 just to play with the kit. The kit can be combined with so many other kits to come up with unique marques

From the FAQ "Shrine of Knowledge" page:

The FAQs on the other hand are very much 'soft' material. They deal with more of a grey area, where often there is no right and wrong answer - in a way, they are our own 'Studio House Rules'. They are, of course, useful when you play a pick-up game against someone you don't know, or at tournaments (i.e. when you don't have a set of common 'house rules' with the other player). However, if you disagree with some answers and prefer to change them in your games and make your own house rules with your friends, that's fine. In fact we encourage you to shape the game around your needs and your taste. We firmly believe that wargaming is about two (or more!) people creating a gaming experience they are both going to enjoy. In other words, you might prefer to skip the FAQs altogether and instead always apply the good old 'roll a dice' rule whenever you meet a problematic situation.

The game is far easier if you just talk to your opponent before a game. You should discuss things like faqs, whether you want to play a hard game or some kind of theme, forgeworld and other things. I get annoyed at both sides sometimes when people try to "force" people to play what they view as official or refuse things as unofficial.

A little talking would solve so many of these situations. You don't like how someone plays, don't play with them. It is better to know beforehand than at the bottom of turn four.

As for vendettas, I stopped using mine over the whole "can't move on 6" thing from 5th. I just got annoyed at everyone having a different view. I don't really miss them, my case is a lot more compact now I just use tanks and men instead.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Because of the Evade rule.

Flyers don't have Jink normally. They can choose to Evade, which gives them Jink, but at the expense of only Snap-firing next turn.

A vendetta is a flyer that can hover , if your in hover mode you can jink I your zooming the. You can evade

Peregrine wrote:That is pointless nitpicking.

It is. I was wondering how long arguments would last before becoming devolving to the point of pedantically arguing what the definition of words means.

If your argument is "well, that depends on what the definition of errata is", then you've already long ceased to be a useful contributor to this conversation.

Painbiro wrote:You replace the TLLC and TLMM with 3 (!) TLLCs, slightly lower transport capacity and then drop the points by 70. Don't tell me that's not ridiculous.

That's not ridiculous.

Ignoring that a TLMM is much better than a TLLC, and that the vehicle is BS4, not BS3, and that the stormraven can take extra missiles, and that the storm raven is immune to the melta rule, and that the storm raven comes with an assault ramp, just look at the cargo.

A vendetta shows up and drops off a few squishy guardsmen with some meltaguns. A stormraven shows up and drops off a dreadnought or a DCA+crusader henchman squad, or a big group of death company that rips your frigging face off.

 Ailaros wrote:


A vendetta shows up and drops off a few squishy guardsmen with some meltaguns.

HEY!

...They've got lasguns too.

No, but seriously, Stormravens are priced totally fine. They have arguably better killyness, are much more resilient, and can drop a squad of six Interceptors WITH NO SCATTER, and plop a dreadnought down right next to them. Oh, and they both can assault that turn. So, you know, deal with it.

TheCaptain wrote:
HEY!

...They've got lasguns too.

Veteran: Oh no, Jim just got killed, and he was holding the last meltagun! Can I pick it up and keep shooting it?

Sarge: Just what do you think this is, numbnuts, FOURTH EDITION?

Veteran: sorry, sarge. I'll just keep my lasgun.

 Lothar wrote:
Ok, I have just checked all the UPDATES (they are not called FAQs, that is just a section in them). Everytime GW is changing (removing) some specific rule (lumbering behemoth, autarch master strategist, da vulchas klaws,...) it is doing it by naming the rule and then writing "ignore the reference to..." or "ignore the X sentence..." or "ignore the words in brackets" or "replace the entry with...". It is always writen in Erratas and Amendments.

Then, there is a section of FAQs, which answers specific questions.

Q: What effect, if any, does the Scout special rule have on a Valkyrie or Vendetta? Will this allow it to enter play in Turn 1 by redeploying 6" onto the board? (p56)
A: It has no effect.

This is ONE question. Every specific question has its own entry in the FAQs section. This one is about the Scout rule of the Valkyrie and the possibility to use it for entering the game in Turn 1.

It is clear from this Q and A that the rule has no effect when trying to use it in the way the Q describes. The rule itself remains the same, it is not changed. There is no problem with outflanking the Valkyrie (or Vendetta)

So you're saying that the Scout rule, which is said to have no effect, has an effect?

You know what, Kingsley? Place this problem to the "You Make Da Call" section (rules section) and you will see what is the opinion of other people. You obviously do not understand what am I telling you and I do not know how to make this easier for you...

Lothar, there was actually two questions asked in that FAQ. See there are two question marks. You do not get to pick which part you apply the answer to, as it applies equally to both questions.

I read the FAQ qustion to the guys whoplay up at my local gaming store to hear their impression of the rule and they all agreed that the vendetta doesnt outflank anymore.

tankboy145 wrote:
I read the FAQ qustion to the guys whoplay up at my local gaming store to hear their impression of the rule and they all agreed that the vendetta doesnt outflank anymore.

I read the FAQ question to my Cat and she just blinked at me.
Pooling random people/things isn't who YMTC works.

-Matt

Peregrine has summed up my arguments well. Should of read through the back post before I posted. No reason to beat this expired horse.

Glocknall wrote:

It makes no sense for a unit to have a USR that they cannot use...ever.

Uhm, but without Scouts, it doesn't gain the Outflank special rule. And currently, that's the only reason why the Vendetta has Scouts: it has Scouts, so it also has Outflank, even though it cannot use Scouts.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
If Vendettas where heavy support choices, I doubt people would bitch.
Vendettas are good, not because what they bring to the table, but the fact that it doesn't take away from your other heavy choices while they do it.
Anything that the pie plates don't kill, vendettas and veterans do.
Now if taking vendettas cost you pie plates, it would have a better balance over the whole army.

-Matt

I would complain. DE get 2 not twinlinked void lances on a AV11 flyer with 2 hull points for 145 points.
No transport capacity, cannot be squadroned, takes a HS slot, and costs 15 points more. And it can hover if it likes

Of all that the cost vs number of heavy weapons is the biggest thing, then the duribility, followed by the transport ability. The taking a HS instead of a FA is way way down there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Honestly I was hoping FAQs were unofficial so all my Tau drones could count as characters for challenges again.

To be fair, Chaos Marines were also hoping all those drones count as characters too.

-Matt

Not really, the boom table just isnt that good.