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 creeping-deth87 wrote:
Vendettas actually lost the ability to outflank with the last FAQ, so it's not as easy to get side/rear. As someone who uses them regularly, I too don't really get the hate. They're good, but they don't deserve the kind of attention they get from the 40k community in my experience with them. Then again I do roll horribly so that might be factoring into my opinion.

Also, it takes a very balls-out player to use those things as transports. If you scatter with the grav chute insertion, every model takes a dangerous terrain test and with our crappy IG armour saves, it hurts.

Mostly because they're ridiculously undercosted. In terms of rules they're outclassed by Stormravens, but at least you're paying a reasonable amount for those.

So a unit that has three extremely long ranged and powerful anti-tank weapons (which are also incredibly accurate), extremely hard to hit in the current environment, and able to carry one of the best troop choices in the game is considered to be balanced?

I am going to make a thread in proposed rules for my hammerhead. Same points, but carries 12 firewarriors, has 3 Twinlinked railguns, and is still a skimmer. Anyone want to take odds on how fast it'd get called on being an overpowered fan-spank piece of trash?

LC hws and Medusa die to a stiff breeze, both units are glass cannons. The vendettas is durable and has very reliable firepower against av 11, 12, & 13. IG as a codex has plenty of cheap ac for av10 and 11, and has cheap melta for av14. It's one of the best units in the game, and has great synergy with the rest of the ig codex.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:

Drake118 wrote:
I've always wanted to put three units of Ogryns in Vendettas...

Vendettas and Valkyries can't carry Ogryns, it says this in the codex.

I just thought that Ogyrns counted as 2 models for transport purposes, but I don't have a codex handy anymore, so maybe I'm wrong. Even if I am wrong, I still wanna run 3 units of Ogryns in Vendettas, lol.

For some reason I just imagine a bunch of Ogryn falling to their deaths as they try using a standard guardsman's parachute.

Drake118 wrote:

 creeping-deth87 wrote:

Drake118 wrote:
I've always wanted to put three units of Ogryns in Vendettas...

Vendettas and Valkyries can't carry Ogryns, it says this in the codex.

I just thought that Ogyrns counted as 2 models for transport purposes, but I don't have a codex handy anymore, so maybe I'm wrong. Even if I am wrong, I still wanna run 3 units of Ogryns in Vendettas, lol.

Yeah, but Ogryn are explicitly forbidden from riding in Vendettas/Valks. Just like Terminators are forbidden from riding in Rhinos or Razorbacks.

The Vendetta is one of the best units in the game. In 5th edition it was good, if somewhat vulnerable, but it was not priced with the new Flyer rules in mind, so it essentially went from being good to amazing for free when 6th edition rolled around and it gained Hard to Hit.

It's not an overwhelmingly broken unit (the only one of those that I'm aware of is St. Celestine), but it's definitely one of the strongest units in the game for its cost and really overshadows the other Fast Attack choices in Codex: Imperial Guard as a result-- a shame, since prior to 6th edition this section was quite well-balanced internally.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:In terms of rules they're outclassed by Stormravens, but at least you're paying a reasonable amount for those.

Yes, but vendettas are a fair bit worse than stormravens, so you'd expect them to cost a fair bit less. If guard had the ability to assault ramp blood talon dreadnoughts or death company from their partially-melta-immune fliers, that would be another story, but as it's not, it's not.

daedalus wrote:Conversely, perhaps you pay too much for that sentinel.

Yeah.

I think that's the one thing the vendetta does strongly - it's the only serious place outside of perhaps scout sentinels where you can bring vehicular lascannons. If you want vehicular pie, there's lots of ways to get it, and if you want vehicular volume of fire, there are a few ways to do that to, but there isn't a high-strength multi-shot heavy weapons platform anywhere in HS, so if you want that kind of thing, you basically have just the vendetta.

Well, and scout sentinels, but the two do rather different things.

In any case, my point is that it's not so much that vendettas are great, so much as the other things in the codex that were supposed to compete against them (like armored sentinels and HWSs), were done too crappily, with no other options.

Utterly OT, but are you going to be at Adepticon this year Ailaros?

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
Just how good is this thing in 6th edition I get that its a flyer with good armor, but it just doesnt seem to offer too much.

Anyone got another perspective?

Not sure if trolling

I've always thought the Vendetta was annoyingly under priced, considering as an Ork player I'm paying 130pts for an upgraded Dakkajet, and 145pts for a "naked" DE flyer. Extremely hard for me to actually deal with as an Ork player, they've required considerable focus fire for me to take out, considering their 12/12/12 armour and likely prolific presence.

After seeing the Heldrake cost 175pts I don't think the Vendetta will get a large price increase in the near future.

 Griddlelol wrote:
After seeing the Heldrake cost 175pts I don't think the Vendetta will get a large price increase in the near future.

While I agree that the Vendetta is unlikely to see a price hike anytime soon, I'm confused as to why the Heldrake would cause you to update in that direction. The Heldrake is much worse than the Vendetta and costs substantially more.

Savageconvoy wrote: I am going to make a thread in proposed rules for my hammerhead. Same points, but carries 12 firewarriors, has 3 Twinlinked railguns, and is still a skimmer. Anyone want to take odds on how fast it'd get called on being an overpowered fan-spank piece of trash?

At least you'd be paying 180pts+ for it...

Kingsley wrote:It's not an overwhelmingly broken unit (the only one of those that I'm aware of is St. Celestine)...

Out of interest, why St. Celestine? She seems good, but no more annoying than, say, Thrawn, who's also scoring. Not saying you're wrong, but curious about your opinion on her

Shas'o_Longshot wrote:

Kingsley wrote:It's not an overwhelmingly broken unit (the only one of those that I'm aware of is St. Celestine)...

Out of interest, why St. Celestine? She seems good, but no more annoying than, say, Thrawn, who's also scoring. Not saying you're wrong, but curious about your opinion on her

Justicar Thawn can also be annoying, but he is tempered by being an expensive upgrade to a unit that is often considered mediocre. St. Celestine is extremely inexpensive for her statline and abilities, and her ability to resurrect synergizes outstandingly well with the Slay the Warlord secondary objective as well as with many Warlord Traits. As a result she can be very frustrating to deal with. When you consider her minimal point cost, things really look absurd-- IMO St. Celestine would be a good buy at 200 points, much less her actual cost of 115!

Comparing Vendetta to LC HWT or LC Sentinel is just silly. HWTs and Sentinels are very bad units for their cost.

About saying Vendettas are most OP unit...that is also silly IMHO. Just read through GK, Necrons, SW, Chaos codices and you can find many units which are widely considered to be "OP". And yes, all of the "OP" units are used very often and you are most likely going to face them when playing against one of those armies. Vendetta is just one of the best units currently in the game, but no way the best or the most OP. Again, before you begin to argue with me, just read through another codices, there are MANY units which are stronger or equally efficient. Warhammer is far from a balanced game.

 Lothar wrote:
Again, before you begin to argue with me, just read through another codices, there are MANY units which are stronger or equally efficient. Warhammer is far from a balanced game.

Citation needed. Long Fangs are the only thing that comes to mind, there's certainly nothing as obviously crazy in the Chaos Codex. Vendettas are stronger than Psyflemen and better than Forgefiends.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
Again, before you begin to argue with me, just read through another codices, there are MANY units which are stronger or equally efficient. Warhammer is far from a balanced game.

Citation needed. Long Fangs are the only thing that comes to mind, there's certainly nothing as obviously crazy in the Chaos Codex. Vendettas are stronger than Psyflemen and better than Forgefiends.

Double citation needed, considering Vendetta's are better than most except for longfangs (Which has a different issue) point for point.

I think that Vendettas are considered the most OP unit is because they synch so well with Vets.

Now if Purifiers could fire a template weapon that drops Paladins in the hole it makes...

Currently though, the negative for having a flying transport is almost nonexistent because skyfire is so limited or expensive. And being able to deploy the squad the turn they come in helps too.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
Again, before you begin to argue with me, just read through another codices, there are MANY units which are stronger or equally efficient. Warhammer is far from a balanced game.

Citation needed. Long Fangs are the only thing that comes to mind, there's certainly nothing as obviously crazy in the Chaos Codex. Vendettas are stronger than Psyflemen and better than Forgefiends.

It is very subjective, which unit is OP, which is not. I will write you a quick list of units, which the other players are thinking to be OP (based on posts I read on various blogs or forums).

Chaos codex? Sorcerer - cheap lvl 3 psyker. Havocs with ACs. Helldrake. T5 marines. T5 obliterators.
Grey knights? Purifier spam. Coteaz for beeing too cheap. Warrior acolytes - again, too cheap, good for psyback spam. Psyfledread - 135 points for 4 TL BS4 S8 shots. Storm raven.
Wolves? As you mentioned - Long fangs. Grey hunters (compare them to other marines). Runepriest (after psychic hood nerf second best psyker defence after eldars). Thunder wolves.
Necrons? Flyer spam. Warriors with their auto-glances. Stormlord. Mind shacle scarabs.
Daemons? White dwarf units.
Eldars? Eldrad. Harlies.
Sisters? Saint Celestine.
Blood angels? Sanguary priests. Mephiston.
Imperial guard? Vendettas. (before 6th edition, many players also hated hydras)
Tau? I do not think people are bitching about any units from this codex

 Lothar wrote:
Tau? I do not think people are bitching about any units from this codex

I got told how cheap and OP crisis suits and broadsides are a few weeks ago. Though I think that was just an awesome day and I happened to kill his DP in one Railgun shot.

Oh, and the Tetra. People get really upset when they can't kill an A10 open-topped vehicle with no weapons for some reason.

 Lothar wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
Again, before you begin to argue with me, just read through another codices, there are MANY units which are stronger or equally efficient. Warhammer is far from a balanced game.

Citation needed. Long Fangs are the only thing that comes to mind, there's certainly nothing as obviously crazy in the Chaos Codex. Vendettas are stronger than Psyflemen and better than Forgefiends.

It is very subjective, which unit is OP, which is not. I will write you a quick list of units, which the other players are thinking to be OP (based on posts I read on various blogs or forums).

Chaos codex? Sorcerer - cheap lvl 3 psyker. Havocs with ACs. Helldrake. T5 marines. T5 obliterators.
Grey knights? Purifier spam. Coteaz for beeing too cheap. Warrior acolytes - again, too cheap, good for psyback spam. Psyfledread - 135 points for 4 TL BS4 S8 shots. Storm raven.
Wolves? As you mentioned - Long fangs. Grey hunters (compare them to other marines). Runepriest (after psychic hood nerf second best psyker defence after eldars). Thunder wolves.
Necrons? Flyer spam. Warriors with their auto-glances. Stormlord. Mind shacle scarabs.
Daemons? White dwarf units.
Eldars? Eldrad. Harlies.
Sisters? Saint Celestine.
Blood angels? Sanguary priests. Mephiston.
Imperial guard? Vendettas. (before 6th edition, many players also hated hydras)
Tau? I do not think people are bitching about any units from this codex

So a bunch of powerful units that, with the exception of Long Fangs and Psyflemen, don't match up to the silly level of the Vendetta?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
Again, before you begin to argue with me, just read through another codices, there are MANY units which are stronger or equally efficient. Warhammer is far from a balanced game.

Citation needed. Long Fangs are the only thing that comes to mind, there's certainly nothing as obviously crazy in the Chaos Codex. Vendettas are stronger than Psyflemen and better than Forgefiends.

Double citation needed, considering Vendetta's are better than most except for longfangs (Which has a different issue) point for point.

Grey Hunters, much like Long Fangs, are extremely cost efficient. Vendettas are good to the point that I'm fairly certain that until Sentinels get returned to being part of Company Command Platoons, mine will never see the table again. Hellhounds are at least niche enough to be worth ditching a Vendetta. Nothing draws fire away from my Chimeras quite like an onrushing Fast tank with a torrent S6 flamer. Being able to Flat Out 12" also makes it fairly good at blocking my Medusas from return fire.

But Vendettas are still 30+ points too cheap. They're not as busted as Flamers, but nothing is.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

So a bunch of powerful units that, with the exception of Long Fangs and Psyflemen, don't match up to the silly level of the Vendetta?

That is your opinion. I respect that, but disagree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
Tau? I do not think people are bitching about any units from this codex

I got told how cheap and OP crisis suits and broadsides are a few weeks ago. Though I think that was just an awesome day and I happened to kill his DP in one Railgun shot.

Oh, and the Tetra. People get really upset when they can't kill an A10 open-topped vehicle with no weapons for some reason.

Lol, I have never heard crisis suits and broadsides beeing OP . You are obviously playing against funny people.

Vendettas are definitely one of the most underpriced units in the game today, and are easily the most powerful unit in the Imperial Guard Codex. They can deal with enemy aircraft and vehicles very well, can handle return fire marvelously, and serve as a very effective transport for some inexpensive and pretty well-armed infantry, all at 130pts.

I don't know that there's any profit to be had in arguing whether they're 'the' most broken unit in the game, however; I'm not going to get into the specifics, but I've run across one or two similarly underpriced units in my time.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
For some reason I just imagine a bunch of Ogryn falling to their deaths as they try using a standard guardsman's parachute.

I literally pooped my pants a little laughing after imagining this.... Well played sir, you get all the internet cookies!

Chaos codex? Sorcerer - cheap lvl 3 psyker. Havocs with ACs. Helldrake. T5 marines. T5 obliterators.

Haha no.

Grey knights? Purifier spam. Coteaz for beeing too cheap. Warrior acolytes - again, too cheap, good for psyback spam. Psyfledread - 135 points for 4 TL BS4 S8 shots. Storm raven.

Meh, Purifiers and psyflemen are the closest to it. Melta/Plasma acolytes are just imitation veterans.

Wolves? As you mentioned - Long fangs. Grey hunters (compare them to other marines). Runepriest (after psychic hood nerf second best psyker defence after eldars). Thunder wolves.

Yes

Necrons? Flyer spam. Warriors with their auto-glances. Stormlord. Mind shacle scarabs.

Flyers yes, Warriors no (Are you serious?), Stormlords only a hard counter to pure shooting lists.

Daemons? White dwarf units.

Yeah.

Eldars? Eldrad. Harlies.

Just the Harlequin star, and its easily beaten if you have weapons that ignore cover saves, and maneuver to shoot the big area's where the Archon isn't.

Sisters? Saint Celestine.

She's inexpensive, but OP? Not really.

Blood angels? Sanguary priests. Mephiston.

50+ points and can be shot out, and Mephiston hasn't been OP since 5th.

Imperial guard? Vendettas. (before 6th edition, many players also hated hydras)

Inexpensive veterans, inexpensive chimera's, Weaken Resolve, Manticore, Vendetta's. There's more but those are the main ones.

Like I have already said, the units I listed are considered OP by other players (not me, because I try to avoid using "OP" label).

Veterans, weaken resolve, manticore? I have never seen any post about those units beeing OP. Chimeras? Yes, some people think they are OP, but probably very few (it is a long time I have seen someone bitching about chimeras)

I'd put Celestine on the list because she all but guarantees you'll contest one of your opponent's backfield objectives and there's literally nothing he can do to prevent it other than cover the objective in a 5 in radius mass of infantry.

Celestine should be added because she ignores the games major premise that you can kill your opponents models. There is nothing that can stop her from getting up and denying StW, a KP, and an objective regularly other then poor rolling.

But I want to note that this opinion is only relative to saying vendettas are OP. I currently don't consider anything really OP. Sure point costs vary but them is the breaks when a game publishes 4-6 army books per edition with 15 codexes

 Ailaros wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:In terms of rules they're outclassed by Stormravens, but at least you're paying a reasonable amount for those.

Yes, but vendettas are a fair bit worse than stormravens, so you'd expect them to cost a fair bit less. If guard had the ability to assault ramp blood talon dreadnoughts or death company from their partially-melta-immune fliers, that would be another story, but as it's not, it's not.

I would expect them to be less, but not 70pts less (and arguably the Stormraven's undercosted somewhat now that 6th has improved it too).

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
Again, before you begin to argue with me, just read through another codices, there are MANY units which are stronger or equally efficient. Warhammer is far from a balanced game.

Citation needed. Long Fangs are the only thing that comes to mind, there's certainly nothing as obviously crazy in the Chaos Codex. Vendettas are stronger than Psyflemen and better than Forgefiends.

Double citation needed, considering Vendetta's are better than most except for longfangs (Which has a different issue) point for point.

Personally I'd argue Vendettas are more OP than Long Fangs because they have better weapons (2 less shots admittedly), a better chance to hit (which makes up for the 2 less shots), are far more difficult to kill and can transport a unit to boot... and are 10pts less than Long Fangs. That's just my opinion of course, and it's not like they both aren't undercosted anyway...