Love is a powerful catalyst in war. It often causes them. Are there examples of love in the Grimdark setting?

In the grim darkness of the far future, love cannot bloom.

...there is only war.

40k love = fanatism, obssesion, snuff

Vect fell in love and then got bored.

Solomon Voss and Askarid Sha.

Gregor Eisenhorn & Alizebeth Bequin - tragic love, which could never be physically consumated, between the psyker & the blank becomes one of the central themes in the latter two books of the Eisenhorn trilogy.

Papa Nurgle loves his children.

Orks love to wage war.

Inquisitor Czevak has feelings for a Living Saint.

 Polvilhovoador wrote:
Inquisitor Czevak has feelings for a Living Saint.

Come to think of it, doesn't Brin Milo have feelings for Saint Sabbat's reincarnation?

The Ordo Hereticus loves to burn witches!

Games Workshop Loves Your Money.

Love does happen in the 40K setting and then usually ends brutally during a xeno invasion.

 Zakiriel wrote:


Love does happen in the 40K setting and then usually ends brutally during a xeno invasion.

Or in a very raunchy manner...google-fu + curiousity + lots of time on one's hands = 1d4chan. Some of those authors ought to be flogged

Or one of them ends up getting possessed by a demon...

 Compel wrote:
Or one of them ends up getting possessed by a demon...

See what I mean? Some of them really ought to be flogged.

Despite what the lesser minds of the forum might claim, love DOES exist in 40k. However, it is rarely a major player or motivation for major players, because the setting is for a wargame of massive proportions.

Plenty of humans fall in love and get married-- or don't get married, as the situation might be. Eldar as well, with a passion that can hardly be described by humans. Tau don't do it AFAIK, and Orks have no gender for love (and only love war). The Necron lords may be capable of it, but they really have no one to feel it towards. Generally, "love" is mostly relegated to Humans and Eldar, but it certainly does exist and is a motivation for many people. It's even possible that the Emperor's actions, as foolhardy as they are, were motivated by love in the end, even if it wasn't romantic love.


And of course, Slaanesh represents the "eros" and "ludus" concepts of love. Keep in mind that there's many concepts of love.

wikipedia wrote:Eros – a passionate physical and emotional love based on aesthetic enjoyment; stereotype of romantic love
Ludus – a love that is played as a game or sport; conquest; may have multiple partners at once
Storge – an affectionate love that slowly develops from friendship, based on similarity (kindred to Philia)
Pragma – love that is driven by the head, not the heart; undemonstrative
Mania – obsessive love; experience great emotional highs and lows; very possessive and often jealous lovers
Agape – selfless altruistic love

Sisters of Battle are meant to be driven by Agape for the Emperor and the Imperium, while many of the more tyrannical rulers of 40k are driven by manic feelings, for example.

 Melissia wrote:
Eldar as well, with a passion that can hardly be described by humans.

Sorry lady, but if Path of the Warrior is to be believed, then I'm not impressed. Korlandril and Thirianna act in the same manner as Human teenagers do, and since they're probably several Human decades or even centuries old, then so much for Eldar inscrutability.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Sorry lady, but if Path of the Warrior is to be believed, then I'm not impressed.

Irrelevant. Just because an incompetent author is incapable of writing an alien mindset doesn't mean that the alien mindset doesn't exist.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Sorry lady, but if Path of the Warrior is to be believed, then I'm not impressed.

Irrelevant. Just because an incompetent author is incapable of writing an alien mindset doesn't mean that the alien mindset doesn't exist.

Ouch No need to be so prickly.

Gav Thorpe is incompetent? On what grounds?

He tried to write an inhuman mindset and failed.

He may be able to write humans very well, but he isn't that good at writing non-humans.

This would be like if someone wrote an Ork who got tired of war. It's just stupid and wrong.

 Melissia wrote:


He may be able to write humans very well, but he isn't that good at writing non-humans.

Well, that's to be expected

There have been many humans who have successfully written characters with inhuman mindsets.

 Melissia wrote:
There have been many humans who have successfully written characters with inhuman mindsets.

Oh? Care to elaborate? The only one I know of is H.P. Lovecraft, and his non-Human characters are less inscrutable and more mind-screwing.

One of the few canon examples I have found is from old Epic Space Marine literature.

When the second battle for Armageddon was going on the Grand Master of the Legio Metalica (Iron Skulls) Titan Legion died (thought by all to be an assassination), and Princeps Senioris Kurt Mannheim held temporary command of the legion. By Imperial Law it was his duty to obey the Overlord (which was the traitorous Herman Von Strab). Von Strab refused to listen to Mannheims advice on how to defeat the massive ork invasion.

So, unable to betray his oath of Loyalty to the Emperor, he put on his best dress uniform, said goodbye to his wife and children, and climbed into his Titan Steel Hammer to lead his battle groups to certain destruction.

The Legion fought hard and the steel hammer accounted for three Ork Gargants before it was crippled. Even then Mannheim steered his machine right into the center of the Ork forces before it's reactor melted down....

The titan legion was almost completely destroyed that day and took no further part in the second battle for Armageddon.

To me, the fact that he knew he was going to die, yet faced it with courage, knowing that he had to protect his family and his fellow man at any cost, shows the greatest love a person can have for another.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
One of the few canon examples I have found is from old Epic Space Marine literature.

When the second battle for Armageddon was going on the Grand Master of the Legio Metalica (Iron Skulls) Titan Legion died (thought by all to be an assassination, and Princeps Senioris Kurt Mannheim held temporary command of the legion. By Imperial Law it was his duty to obey the Overlord (which was the traitorous Herman Von Strab. Von Strab refused to listen to Mannheims advice on how to defeat the massive ork invasion.

So, unable to betray his oath of Loyalty to the Emperor, he put on his best dress uniform, said goodbye to his wife and children, and climbed into his Titan Steel Hammer to lead his battle groups to certain destruction.

The Legion fought hard and the steel hammer accounted for three Ork Gargants before it was crippled. Even then Mannheim steered his machine right into the center of the Ork forces before it's reactor melted down....

The titan legion was almost completely destroyed that day and took no further part in the second battle for Armageddon.

To me, the fact that he knew he was going to die, yet faced it with courage, knowing that he had to protect his family and his fellow man at any cost, shows the greatest love a person can have for another.

+1 to you, good sir

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
There have been many humans who have successfully written characters with inhuman mindsets.

Oh? Care to elaborate? The only one I know of is H.P. Lovecraft, and his non-Human characters are less inscrutable and more mind-screwing.

The webcomic Flaky Pastry (the goblins, biologically, do not feel a conscience like we do, amongst other mental differences; one goblin has a conscience magically forced upon her, and becomes emotionally crippled as a result) comes to mind, same with Freefall (Sam Starfall thinks on a level quite different from ours, having evolved from a scavenger species). As does the game Kingdoms of Amalur (the fae are closer to human than the other examples, but they still think quite differently when you actually get down to the details)) or Sheogorath from the Elder Scrolls. White Wolf tried its best to instill this in the Old World of Darkness setting for any supernatural creatures, although many players ignored it.

Hell, even 40k did it right a few times. The Ork comic is a great example of inhuman thinking, and certainly the Tau books have tried to describe them this way as well.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
There have been many humans who have successfully written characters with inhuman mindsets.

Oh? Care to elaborate? The only one I know of is H.P. Lovecraft, and his non-Human characters are less inscrutable and more mind-screwing.

The webcomic Flaky Pastry (the goblins, biologically, do not feel a conscience like we do, amongst other mental differences; one goblin has a conscience magically forced upon her, and becomes emotionally crippled as a result) comes to mind, same with Freefall (Sam Starfall thinks on a level quite different from ours, having evolved from a scavenger species). As does the game Kingdoms of Amalur (the fae) or Sheogorath from the Elder Scrolls. White Wolf tried its best to instill this in the Old World of Darkness setting for any supernatural creatures, although many players ignored it.

Hell, even 40k did it right a few times. The Ork comic is a great example of inhuman thinking, and certainly the Tau books have tried to describe them this way as well.

Come to think of it, the Reapers from Mass Effect come close; while you can understand the reasons behind the Cycle of Extinction, the logic behind it is inhuman in its own way.

EDIT: And the Gravemind - everyone thinks its bad, and from our point of view its goals are undesirable, but as far as its concerned, everything and everyone it infects simply becomes part of a greater whole.

 Melissia wrote:
He tried to write an inhuman mindset and failed.

He may be able to write humans very well, but he isn't that good at writing non-humans.

This would be like if someone wrote an Ork who got tired of war. It's just stupid and wrong.

+1, and completely agree...
and Cycle of Extinction is totaly human/nature way of thinking...you know "life circle","world wars","controling the nature"....Besides,I'm wondering where was it used before (in what SF book/movie/comic) ?

O, wait - Terminator and BSG comes close...

there's jaq'draco and Meh'lindi in inquisitor

There was a joke supplement for Inquisitor released on Valentines Day a long time ago on this topic; it was mostly advice on working romantic plots/subplots into a plot-driven Inquisitor campaign. As a general rule love/romance are perfectly fine in 40k so long as they remain plausible (Eldar/human is just silly (very close to bestiality in the Eldar mind), Tau women don't actually have breasts, Assassins are probably castrated to avoid trouble, Orks don't have a sex drive; you're probably limited to human/human or Eldar/Eldar for most things), and try to keep in mind the GRIMDARK nature of things when writing these plots. Betrayal, pain, one side using the other, change of circumstances to make the relationship not work, death, star-crossed-ness, that sort of thing fits a lot better than anything to which 'happily ever after' could be applied; Dan Abnett's Inquisition books are a pretty good example of effective 40k treatment of romance.

GW is afraid of love/sex and doesn't address it in their books, figuring the nerdy fans of such material don't care about such things.

However a few BL books have handled romance, and surprisingly have handled it right. The Eisenhorn trilogy with Eisenhorn and Bequin and Septimus/the Navigator's relationship in the Night Lords trilogy comes to mind.

 Harriticus wrote:
GW is afraid of love/sex and doesn't address it in their books, figuring the nerdy fans of such material don't care about such things.

However a few BL books have handled romance, and surprisingly have handled it right. The Eisenhorn trilogy with Eisenhorn and Bequin and Septimus/the Navigator's relationship in the Night Lords trilogy comes to mind.

AD-B seems to get it right - Andrej's unrequited love/feelings for that other stormtrooper (can't remember her name right now) in Helsreach is another example of love being done really rather well in 40k.

Definition: Love is making a shot to the knees at 120 Kilometers using an Aratech Sniper Rifle with a Tri-Light Scope! Love is knowing your target, placing them in your reticule, and achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds!

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
One of the few canon examples I have found is from old Epic Space Marine literature.

When the second battle for Armageddon was going on the Grand Master of the Legio Metalica (Iron Skulls) Titan Legion died (thought by all to be an assassination, and Princeps Senioris Kurt Mannheim held temporary command of the legion. By Imperial Law it was his duty to obey the Overlord (which was the traitorous Herman Von Strab. Von Strab refused to listen to Mannheims advice on how to defeat the massive ork invasion.

So, unable to betray his oath of Loyalty to the Emperor, he put on his best dress uniform, said goodbye to his wife and children, and climbed into his Titan Steel Hammer to lead his battle groups to certain destruction.

The Legion fought hard and the steel hammer accounted for three Ork Gargants before it was crippled. Even then Mannheim steered his machine right into the center of the Ork forces before it's reactor melted down....

The titan legion was almost completely destroyed that day and took no further part in the second battle for Armageddon.

To me, the fact that he knew he was going to die, yet faced it with courage, knowing that he had to protect his family and his fellow man at any cost, shows the greatest love a person can have for another.

+1 to you, good sir

I think agape is the greatest form of love. Just my opinion

 Melissia wrote:



And of course, Slaanesh represents the "eros" and "ludus" concepts of love. Keep in mind that there's many concepts of love.

wikipedia wrote:Eros – a passionate physical and emotional love based on aesthetic enjoyment; stereotype of romantic love
Ludus – a love that is played as a game or sport; conquest; may have multiple partners at once
Storge – an affectionate love that slowly develops from friendship, based on similarity (kindred to Philia)
Pragma – love that is driven by the head, not the heart; undemonstrative
Mania – obsessive love; experience great emotional highs and lows; very possessive and often jealous lovers
Agape – selfless altruistic love

Eros also refers to appreciation of the arts, I take it? That's what "aesthetic enjoyment" seems to mean.

There was some love in Dead Men Walking aswell IIRC, but I may be mixing that up with Helsreach.

Well, I'm sure love and passion and all those other human emotions still exist in the 41st Millennium. However, we only read about love, passion and those other human emotions in character driven stories. Or rather, stories which feature realistic and complex characters, and focus on their own personal conflicts and trials.

40K literature almost exclusively eschews character driven narratives, instead focusing on bolter-porn and world/setting building, and the characters that we are presented with are usually poorly constructed and extremely flat. There's no room for passion and love in a one dimensional character, and barring a few notable exceptions, that's all we get from the Black Library.

It's kind of a shame. I really think some love in the setting would highlight the ugly grimdark nature of it very well.

 coolbrobunny wrote:


I think agape is the greatest form of love. Just my opinion

For your children and comrades perhaps.

Anyway, is there an example of a Romantic War? One like Helen of Troy?

I wouldn't imagine so. I mean, sure one imperial governor could declare war on another imperial governor over a woman.

But I'm pretty sure what would happen next. The Adeptus Arbites would knock down the doors to both palaces, declare both governors to 'be found wanting' then execute them and their immediate families just to make sure it doesn't happen again.

The nids love us

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Eldar/human is just silly (very close to bestiality in the Eldar mind)

Personally, I would think that Humans might find Eldar handsome/beautiful, in an alien, forbidden, manner. Likewise, Eldar may find Humans handsome/beautiful, but in a primitive, unrefined, way. I don't think they actually consider Humans as animals, more like very immature and ignorant children. 'cept the Emperor - best not to challenge him directly, and show the appropriate respect.

EDIT: Oh, and Dark Eldar. They're crazy enough to try Human-Eldar, though I doubt love of any kind is involved. And considering the nightmare conditions of Commoragh, distraught Human and Eldar slaves might just hope to find comfort in each other...

There is love. But you can't make it. Because there is only war.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
There have been many humans who have successfully written characters with inhuman mindsets.

Oh? Care to elaborate? The only one I know of is H.P. Lovecraft, and his non-Human characters are less inscrutable and more mind-screwing.

The webcomic Flaky Pastry (the goblins, biologically, do not feel a conscience like we do, amongst other mental differences; one goblin has a conscience magically forced upon her, and becomes emotionally crippled as a result) comes to mind, same with Freefall (Sam Starfall thinks on a level quite different from ours, having evolved from a scavenger species). As does the game Kingdoms of Amalur (the fae) or Sheogorath from the Elder Scrolls. White Wolf tried its best to instill this in the Old World of Darkness setting for any supernatural creatures, although many players ignored it.

Hell, even 40k did it right a few times. The Ork comic is a great example of inhuman thinking, and certainly the Tau books have tried to describe them this way as well.

Come to think of it, the Reapers from Mass Effect come close; while you can understand the reasons behind the Cycle of Extinction, the logic behind it is inhuman in its own way.

EDIT: And the Gravemind - everyone thinks its bad, and from our point of view its goals are undesirable, but as far as its concerned, everything and everyone it infects simply becomes part of a greater whole.

Goblin Corps. It follows the mindset of an Evil hitsquad. Only thing that bothers me is the Troll is described as a DnD Gnoll. Good book though.

I'd like to mention the Ciaphas Cain novels. Not only are they a tongue-in-cheek look at the 40k universe. But there is definite love between Cain and inquisitor Amberlee Vail, t'was almost love at first sight on the commissar's part, in fact.
Admittedly, they both keep a thick veneer of professionalism and 'duty' so from our point of view they act more like 'friends with benefits'. But there's much more to it than that, really. Fun books.

Also, another novel by the same author, 'Scourge the Heretic', happens to follow a diverse group of inquisitors, including a very sexy assassin of redemptionist faith (views lust as a sin) who gets a crush on one of the inquisitor's aides - and has trouble realizing and handling it. That's a definite character-driven novel, for those who like to get out of 'bolter-porn'

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Melissia wrote:



And of course, Slaanesh represents the "eros" and "ludus" concepts of love. Keep in mind that there's many concepts of love.

wikipedia wrote:Eros – a passionate physical and emotional love based on aesthetic enjoyment; stereotype of romantic love
Ludus – a love that is played as a game or sport; conquest; may have multiple partners at once
Storge – an affectionate love that slowly develops from friendship, based on similarity (kindred to Philia)
Pragma – love that is driven by the head, not the heart; undemonstrative
Mania – obsessive love; experience great emotional highs and lows; very possessive and often jealous lovers
Agape – selfless altruistic love

Eros also refers to appreciation of the arts, I take it? That's what "aesthetic enjoyment" seems to mean.

Actually, I think you may be off on this. Think skin deep...or the general obsession of Noise Marines or the Emperor's Children. Remember the first noise marines with their beautiful garish paint jobs and guit...I mean sonic blasters of ro...I mean just sonic blasters? Those guys loved their own aescthetic look.

Mechanicum features a relationship between Dalia and that dude who's name starts with a C.

 Melissia wrote:


Come to think of it, the Reapers from Mass Effect come close; while you can understand the reasons behind the Cycle of Extinction, the logic behind it is inhuman in its own way.

EDIT: And the Gravemind - everyone thinks its bad, and from our point of view its goals are undesirable, but as far as its concerned, everything and everyone it infects simply becomes part of a greater whole.

Mass effect and Halo = Awesome games

The Tau loves all citicents!

Tyranids wanne hug you.

Slanesh has some love to share.

Dark Eldars love to mutch.

Eldar don't dare to love.

Ork love makes fungus in your lokal comunaty.

Space Marines could have some Greek brother love (if GW dared go gay i supose)

Dan Abnet has some love in some of his books.

Also, the necron - IG book has a love triangel that is a bit rubbish.

Well, I'm sure love and passion and all those other human emotions still exist in the 41st Millennium. However, we only read about love, passion and those other human emotions in character driven stories. Or rather, stories which feature realistic and complex characters, and focus on their own personal conflicts and trials.

40K literature almost exclusively eschews character driven narratives, instead focusing on bolter-porn and world/setting building, and the characters that we are presented with are usually poorly constructed and extremely flat. There's no room for passion and love in a one dimensional character, and barring a few notable exceptions, that's all we get from the Black Library.

It's kind of a shame. I really think some love in the setting would highlight the ugly grimdark nature of it very well.

That's precisely why I like it in the Eisenhorn books, where I think it's very clear that Eisenhorn and Bequin love each other as best they can.

 Melissia wrote:
Sisters of Battle are meant to be driven by Agape for the Emperor and the Imperium, while many of the more tyrannical rulers of 40k are driven by manic feelings, for example.

Excellent point! One might also note that SM are largely driven by the concept of storge. In fact, the most crucial event of the 40k setting is all about storge. As for romantic love, it comes up from time to time. In Dead Men Walking the protagonist is in love with the Planetary Governor's daughter and his feelings play a significant role in his story if not necessarily the fate of that planet.

I always wondered why none of the Primarchs ever managed to find a significant other in their formative years.

 Manchu wrote:


I always wondered why none of the Primarchs ever managed to find a significant other in their formative years.

First Heretic addresses this somewhat from Lorgar's perspective at least. That the Emepror basically forced them to be nothing but tools of war and never allowed for them to develop into anything else that wasn't a death machine. My guess is if any of the Primarchs got a significant other the Emperor would have had Guilliman/Custodes show up to put a bolt in their head, or at least had them have an "accident" while in transit to the Warp.

That seems likely (especially given Angron's situation) but I am talking about before the Primarchs were reunited with the Emperor. Many of them ruled as kings of their adoptive homeworlds yet none seem to have had queens or consorts.

 Manchu wrote:
That seems likely (especially given Angron's situation) but I am talking about before the Primarchs were reunited with the Emperor. Many of them ruled as kings of their adoptive homeworlds yet none seem to have had queens or consorts.

Because girls are icky.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Melissia wrote:



And of course, Slaanesh represents the "eros" and "ludus" concepts of love. Keep in mind that there's many concepts of love.

wikipedia wrote:Eros – a passionate physical and emotional love based on aesthetic enjoyment; stereotype of romantic love
Ludus – a love that is played as a game or sport; conquest; may have multiple partners at once
Storge – an affectionate love that slowly develops from friendship, based on similarity (kindred to Philia)
Pragma – love that is driven by the head, not the heart; undemonstrative
Mania – obsessive love; experience great emotional highs and lows; very possessive and often jealous lovers
Agape – selfless altruistic love

Eros also refers to appreciation of the arts, I take it? That's what "aesthetic enjoyment" seems to mean.

Actually, I think you may be off on this. Think skin deep...or the general obsession of Noise Marines or the Emperor's Children. Remember the first noise marines with their beautiful garish paint jobs and guit...I mean sonic blasters of ro...I mean just sonic blasters? Those guys loved their own aescthetic look.

He is actually right.

Aesthetics (also spelled æsthetics) is a branch of philosophy dealing with the nature of art, beauty, and taste, with the creation and appreciation of beauty.[1][2] It is more scientifically defined as the study of sensory or sensori-emotional values, sometimes called judgments of sentiment and taste.

 Manchu wrote:
That seems likely (especially given Angron's situation) but I am talking about before the Primarchs were reunited with the Emperor. Many of them ruled as kings of their adoptive homeworlds yet none seem to have had queens or consorts.

Yeah, that's just GW being stupid and written by game designers. Had guys like ADB or even Abnett written the Primarchs backgrounds we would have seem love interests in there. Especially from the likes of ones with more human emotion like Fulgrim, Lorgar, Sanguinius, Russ, even Horus, and so on. Though suffice to say I think maniacs like Kurze and Angron wouldn't have cared about love even if they got a real writing team at GW.....

And since Jaghatai's past is a ripoff of Genghis Khan's I imagine he would have gotten in bed with quite a few ladies and 25% of the current inhabitants of Mundus Planus can trace their genetic lineage to him.

GW's treatment on love is pretty much how Gulliman would have reacted to a Primarch with a wife in any regard.

It may seem strange but I really thought Patience Kys and Sholto Unwerth would have stuck up a relationship. Abnett does a good job on the topic in his books. I couldn't imagine the primarchs being capable of romantic love even Fulgrim, they are so different from the average human.

 Manchu wrote:


I always wondered why none of the Primarchs ever managed to find a significant other in their formative years.

What makes you think they didn't? For all we know, they did. Russ in particular springs to mind

Perhaps a reason why Asartes themselves don't seem to be attracted to the ladies, maybe it's just ingrained in their psyches? A warrior should not have the distraction of worrying about whether the dishes have been done or if her in doors is still sulking after you forgot your anniversary and held a meeting on battle tactics.

I would say that Slaanesh itself is very mania. He will have you love no other and demand that you love him and woe betide the day that you turn from his light. He is indulgent but can be wrathful like no other.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Perhaps a reason why Asartes themselves don't seem to be attracted to the ladies, maybe it's just ingrained in their psyches?

The Space Wolves are once again jump to my mind as an exception, for some reason...

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Perhaps a reason why Asartes themselves don't seem to be attracted to the ladies, maybe it's just ingrained in their psyches?

I have no trouble with the idea of celibate Space Marines. They're warrior monks after all. But if a Primarch crashes on your planet, he's going to immediately be the most eligible bachelor globally. (Except maybe Konrad, who seems like a creeper.)

Most of the (IMO) better BL novels have love in them, although mostly with humans as a contrast to the loveless regime of the Astartes. Also quite a few of them are doomed........but they are there.

Cain novels - obviously
Helsreach: several lovers are main characters
Night Lords: main human characters (well ones a Navigator but still)
Guants Ghosts: many and varied, marriage and children
Tide of Iron: main human resistance fighters
Titanicus: major human characters
Know no Fear: Quite touching one between two senior members of the Mechancius
Desert Warriors: main protagonists

and so on

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Perhaps a reason why Asartes themselves don't seem to be attracted to the ladies, maybe it's just ingrained in their psyches?

I have no trouble with the idea of celibate Space Marines. They're warrior monks after all. But if a Primarch crashes on your planet, he's going to immediately be the most eligible bachelor globally. (Except maybe Konrad, who seems like a creeper.)

Yes, but there isn't much point of him being the most eligible bachelor if he would rather play with his pistol rather than wine and dine a lady. I'm not saying they are gay or anything, just that the Emperor didn't make them that way. Even their notions of family are different, they might love the Emperor and their brothers, but it's not the same love that we know.

I think it's Loken that reflects on Mersadie that she might have been attractive, but since he's become Astartes his outlook on the opposite sex is different. In his pre Astartes years he might have been trying to hump her as soon as he laid eyes on her.

I once read a story about love, actually.

A man fell in love with a beautiful woman one day. The Inquisition heard of it and deemed the planet Extremis Diabolis on the grounds of Slaaneshi corruption. Within a week the planet was reduced to a floating hunk of glass and death.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Perhaps a reason why Asartes themselves don't seem to be attracted to the ladies, maybe it's just ingrained in their psyches?

I have no trouble with the idea of celibate Space Marines. They're warrior monks after all. But if a Primarch crashes on your planet, he's going to immediately be the most eligible bachelor globally. (Except maybe Konrad, who seems like a creeper.)

Yes, but there isn't much point of him being the most eligible bachelor if he would rather play with his pistol rather than wine and dine a lady. I'm not saying they are gay or anything, just that the Emperor didn't make them that way. Even their notions of family are different, they might love the Emperor and their brothers, but it's not the same love that we know.

Play with his pistol, eh?

I'm not discounting the possibility of gay primarchs. I hope we live in a day and age where most readers would be okay with that. The point remains: none of them seems to have had a special friend of any gender. I'm not sure that we can reason to what Primarchs are like on this score from the experience of Space Marines. Marines are humans inducted by relentless training, brain-washing, genetic therapy, psycho-surgery, and organ modification. To the best of our knowledge, the Primarchs never went through any of that. They just are who they are -- which admittedly entails, as you say, how the Emperor made them. But even that point is shaky given that the Emperor seems not to have had complete mastery regarding the method of their creation.

Agreed - plus Chaos played with them in the warp and therefore all bets are off.

Now the Emperor could have removed the appropriate equipment in their creation - both physically and emotionally but equally Chaos could have put it back - they gave one of them wings........

 Manchu wrote:

I'm not discounting the possibility of gay primarchs. I hope we live in a day and age where most readers would be okay with that. The point remains: none of them seems to have had a special friend of any gender. I'm not sure that we can reason to what Primarchs are like on this score from the experience of Space Marines. Marines are humans inducted by relentless training, brain-washing, genetic therapy, psycho-surgery, and organ modification. To the best of our knowledge, the Primarchs never went through any of that. They just are who they are -- which admittedly entails, as you say, how the Emperor made them. But even that point is shaky given that the Emperor seems not to have had complete mastery regarding the method of their creation.

Nor am I, I am just saying that they are beyond those kind of human feelings, or that's how they are supposed to be. What use is love or any notion of that to a being that is created solely to conquer and destroy? So, the Emperor might have had intentions for the Primarchs once Unification was completed, beyond destroying them once they have served their purpose, but other than being leaders or governors I don't think letting them settle down with a wife and kids was one of them.

Their upbringings on their respective worlds possibly would have had some influence on this, as mortals around them went to Space Las Vegas and they got hitched, but the theme for the Primarchs is that they weren't concerned other than for the well being of the populace as a whole. You can't have a warrior concerned about his better half whilst he's away duking it out on some god forsaken armpit of a planet, what might she be doing whilst he's away, she, or he, has needs too you know, you don't buy me space daisies anymore and he was there for me ... ... you get the idea

 Mr Morden wrote:

Now the Emperor could have removed the appropriate equipment in their creation - both physically and emotionally but equally Chaos could have put it back - they gave one of them wings........

 Pilau Rice wrote:
What use is love or any notion of that to a being that is created solely to conquer and destroy?

I just find it hard to imagine that the capacity for romantic love works on an on/off switch basis, even for a mastermind genetic engineer and psyker like the Emperor. I mean, he didn't manage to find the betrayal on/off switch. Then again, my theory is that he created some of them to turn on him.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Fear to tread seems to imply that the Wings were the Emperors design.

Daaaaaaaaaaamn. That's actually huge. Can you spell out how for me please? (spoiler tags/PM as necessary)

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
What use is love or any notion of that to a being that is created solely to conquer and destroy?

I just find it hard to imagine that the capacity for romantic love works on an on/off switch basis, even for a mastermind genetic engineer and psyker like the Emperor. I mean, he didn't manage to find the betrayal on/off switch. Then again, my theory is that he created some of them to turn on him.

I certainly understand where you're coming from Manchu, but you're thinking like a soft squidgy human, The Primarchs were made in a glass tank that had bits of the Emperors noggin' thrown into the mix and if anyone is removed from mortal foibles it's the Emperor, regardless of his naughty escapades.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Spoiler:

Fear to tread seems to imply that the Wings were the Emperors design.

Daaaaaaaaaaamn. That's actually huge. Can you spell out how for me please? (spoiler tags/PM as necessary)

It's how I felt it came across



Edit: Felt I had better spoiler that as it received such a reaction

I'll have to re-read that novel - thanks most interesting as I always considered that the wings were the most obvious legacy of the Chaos abduction

 Mr Morden wrote:
I'll have to re-read that novel - thanks most interesting as I always considered that the wings were the most obvious legacy of the Chaos abduction

But we know from other books that certain aspects of the Primarchs were intentional, ones that we might think were clear warp taint.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
if anyone is removed from mortal foibles it's the Emperor, regardless of his naughty escapades.

Perhaps the lesson is that the Primarchs can experience humanity's most petty
delusions but have no ability to participate in its most transcendent realities.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
It's how I felt it came across

I suppose. Ambiguity is the watch word of this series ... and it's getting a bit old, honestly.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I always considered that the wings were the most obvious legacy of the Chaos abduction

Me, too. Not sure where I got that idea. Index Astartes? The general hatred of mutation?Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
But we know from other books that certain aspects of the Primarchs were intentional, ones that we might think were clear warp taint.

Who are you thinking of?

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
if anyone is removed from mortal foibles it's the Emperor, regardless of his naughty escapades.

Perhaps the lesson is that the Primarchs can experience humanity's most petty
delusions but have no ability to participate in its most transcendent realities

They already know what they need too and can relate to certain relationships, but they have never needed to find out about how to intimate, so don't know or even feel the need ti instigate one.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
It's how I felt it came across

I suppose. Ambiguity is the watch word of this series ... and it's getting a bit old, honestly.

I don't think it's going to change though, which is a shame perhaps. Some things need to be kept ambiguous, others they should maybe not even touch upon. I think at times, that the whole series should just have been left alone.

 Manchu wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I always considered that the wings were the most obvious legacy of the Chaos abduction

Me, too. Not sure where I got that idea. Index Astartes? The general hatred of mutation?

Well the IA says

Some among those who entertain such unwholesome beliefs say that it is because Sanguinius was more touched by Chaos than the other infant Primarchs. They cite the fact that he possessed wings - an obvious mutation - to support their case. Their argument runs that the gene-seed which was extracted from him was flawed even before the first Blood Angels were created, and thus terrible consequences were preordained.

But as we learn, some of the Primarchs did have intentional mutations bred into them. Would someone who does not understand Primarch genetic material have any other way of explaining how the Angel had wings? Maybe it was the intention of the Emperor to have an Angel at his side, knowing of the darkness that was approaching. It might be more than coinkidink. There are no Daemons, but you made an Angel.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
But we know from other books that certain aspects of the Primarchs were intentional, ones that we might think were clear warp taint.

Who are you thinking of?

Got to be the big doggy Russ hasn't it, if you didn't know about the Canis Helix and the Emperors designs you would think Beast.

Ah but with Russ, it's the opposite story from Sanguinius. The Canis Helix business is well known and all the Pups have it. No BA have (living) wings, however. I suppose the wulfen deal, which I'm not totally sure exists anymore, gets to the same point.

Back to love and the primarchs, your points are supported by the fact that so many of them had trouble with or flat-out lacked parental figures. I guess Guilliman comes closest to having a normal, healthy relationship with his adoptive father although we don't know many details about it. Some of them seem very attached to the Emperor, as well, in a sense that goes beyond mere duty (ironically, not Guilliman). Others, like Mortarian and Curze has experiences that would traumatize and desensitize anyone. Perturabo is the best example of your theory in practice but there is clearly something wrong with him.

 Manchu wrote:
Ah but with Russ, it's the opposite story from Sanguinius. The Canis Helix business is well known and all the Pups have it. No BA have (living) wings, however. I suppose the wulfen deal, which I'm not totally sure exists anymore, gets to the same point.

Ah but no but True of a Space Marine, but what of the people on Fenris or to anyone who doesn't know about the Canis Helix. The Blood Angels might not share the wings, but they share the Red Thirst which is from the Primarchs Geneseed. It's the same dealio in a way.

 Manchu wrote:
Back to love and the primarchs, your points are supported by the fact that so many of them had trouble with or flat-out lacked parental figures. I guess Guilliman comes closest to having a normal, healthy relationship with his adoptive father although we don't know many details about it. Some of them seem very attached to the Emperor, as well, in a sense that goes beyond mere duty (ironically, not Guilliman). Others, like Mortarian and Curze has experiences that would traumatize and desensitize anyone. Perturabo is the best example of your theory in practice but there is clearly something wrong with him.

Wasn't Dorn pretty close to his adoptive father on Inwit, I think it's a fairly common trait shared by the loyalist ones is that they were at least able to form some form of relationship with the people around them, without suspecting them all the time. Perturabo is a dark character, I wonder what made him like that. With the Primarchs though I don't know if it is an emotion that makes them that way or if it is like with the Custodes, that they have that inbuilt into them. Sure they have an attachment to him of sorts, but is it love?

At least Curze knows how it feels to be a human on the inside .. ok, have a human

Dorn is certainly the clingiest of the Primarchs relative to the Emperor. He also had a security blanket, though. :/

Hoo boy, daddy issues everywhere.

 Manchu wrote:
Dorn is certainly the clingiest of the Primarchs relative to the Emperor. He also had a security blanket, though. :/

But with Dorn is this more his problem with obsession than a specific emotion, like with pain, it's his duty to serve the Emperor and he will do it to his all. He's, at times at least, the most human Primarch to me, despite his stone hard exterior on the inside he's a soft as fluff.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Dorn is certainly the clingiest of the Primarchs relative to the Emperor. He also had a security blanket, though. :/

But with Dorn is this more his problem with obsession than a specific emotion, like with pain, it's his duty to serve the Emperor and he will do it to his all. He's, at times at least, the most human Primarch to me, despite his stone hard exterior on the inside he's a soft as fluff.

Ever read The Last Remembrancer? That man, Solomon Voss, was the most Human character in 40k I've ever encountered. But more to the point, you can see that while Dorn had clung to his ideals up to then, being forced to kill Voss and abandon the Imperium's ideals of truth and reason for the sake of the future pushed him to the breaking point. Which ultimately culminated with Dorn turning into an emo wreck after the Siege of Terra.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Dorn is certainly the clingiest of the Primarchs relative to the Emperor. He also had a security blanket, though. :/

But with Dorn is this more his problem with obsession than a specific emotion, like with pain, it's his duty to serve the Emperor and he will do it to his all. He's, at times at least, the most human Primarch to me, despite his stone hard exterior on the inside he's a soft as fluff.

Ever read The Last Remembrancer? That man, Solomon Voss, was the most Human character in 40k I've ever encountered. But more to the point, you can see that while Dorn had clung to his ideals up to then, being forced to kill Voss and abandon the Imperium's ideals of truth and reason for the sake of the future pushed him to the breaking point. Which ultimately culminated with Dorn turning into an emo wreck after the Siege of Terra.

That was what failing his father did, that no mater how hard he had tried he still failed, that's what broke him. Things started to slip away from him before he boarded the Vengeful Spirit, but having to carry out his fathers decimated corpse was the final nail in the coffin of his psyche.

Things seemed to improve after the Iron Cage, but the persona he adopts after that is a cover up, he's still dead inside.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


That was what failing his father did, that no mater how hard he had tried he still failed, that's what broke him. Things started to slip away from him before he boarded the Vengeful Spirit, but having to carry out his fathers decimated corpse was the final nail in the coffin of his psyche.

Things seemed to improve after the Iron Cage, but the persona he adopts after that is a cover up, he's still dead inside.

He 'died' on Titan, you could tell by the way that not even Iacton Qruze, who survived the hell of Istvaan III, could look at him in the face before he executed the last relic of the Imperium's lost ideals. Or how he could never answer Voss about what will he rebuild the Imperium from. Poor Dorn...

EDIT: Just like to ask this, had the roles been reversed, and Dorn had turned traitor instead of Horus, and Horus was at the Imperial Palace, would he have taken the loss better or worse? No other Primarch was as close to the Emperor as Horus was, given the relatively long time he spent as the Emperor's only son before another Primarch was found.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

He 'died' on Titan, you could tell by the way that not even Iacton Qruze, who survived the hell of Istvaan III, could look at him in the face before he executed the last relic of the Imperium's lost ideals. Or how he could never answer Voss about what will he rebuild the Imperium from. Poor Dorn...

Well, we'll have to disagree here, he still had hope at this point, the old rule might be gone but with the Emperor there was still a future. I got fear from that story, fear of what was to come and what the future would hold. Fear is the reoccurring theme with Dorn currently. It's why he couldn't read what Voss had wrote, he was afraid of what he might find out.

I think if it had been Horus at the Emperors side, he would have died instead of Sanguinius. Horus bought Sanguinius to him as a last ditch effort to bring him to his side, I think if Dorn was the traitor then Horus would be the one to try and win over.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

He 'died' on Titan, you could tell by the way that not even Iacton Qruze, who survived the hell of Istvaan III, could look at him in the face before he executed the last relic of the Imperium's lost ideals. Or how he could never answer Voss about what will he rebuild the Imperium from. Poor Dorn...

Well, we'll have to disagree here, he still had hope at this point, the old rule might be gone but with the Emperor there was still a future. I got fear from that story, fear of what was to come and what the future would hold. Fear is the reoccurring theme with Dorn currently. It's why he couldn't read what Voss had wrote, he was afraid of what he might find out.

I can respect that.

I think if it had been Horus at the Emperors side, he would have died instead of Sanguinius. Horus bought Sanguinius to him as a last ditch effort to bring him to his side, I think if Dorn was the traitor then Horus would be the one to try and win over.

And Sanguinius would have been left to mourn over Horus and the Emperor in Dorn's place? Still, I get the feeling Sanguinius could have coped with the loss better.

EDIT: Regarding Voss' last work, I suspect he foresaw the rise of the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy, the abandonment of progress for ultimate stagnation and collapse via perpetuation of the current system, and so on.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


That was what failing his father did, that no mater how hard he had tried he still failed, that's what broke him. Things started to slip away from him before he boarded the Vengeful Spirit, but having to carry out his fathers decimated corpse was the final nail in the coffin of his psyche.

Things seemed to improve after the Iron Cage, but the persona he adopts after that is a cover up, he's still dead inside.

He 'died' on Titan, you could tell by the way that not even Iacton Qruze, who survived the hell of Istvaan III, could look at him in the face before he executed the last relic of the Imperium's lost ideals. Or how he could never answer Voss about what will he rebuild the Imperium from. Poor Dorn...

EDIT: Just like to ask this, had the roles been reversed, and Dorn had turned traitor instead of Horus, and Horus was at the Imperial Palace, would he have taken the loss better or worse? No other Primarch was as close to the Emperor as Horus was, given the relatively long time he spent as the Emperor's only son before another Primarch was found.

Dornian Conspiracy. Google it, its a good read!

Do you mean the Dornian heresy? if so I second that!

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Do you mean the Dornian heresy? if so I second that!

Si. I should sleep more. The link http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=200543

They also did a few more Legions after that first batch as well! Sorry to go Off-topic OP.

I downloaded the Dornian Heresy, had a bit of a read of it, so much of it seemed incredibly forced.

Blood Angels becoming Plague Marines...

The thing with Dorn I like, is how he becomes the living embodiment of the transition from the Imperium of 30k to the Imperium of 40k.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Things seemed to improve after the Iron Cage, but the persona he adopts after that is a cover up, he's still dead inside.

I think you're familiar with my views on Dorn but just in case we've never gone over it, I think Dorn was on the edge of falling after the HH and the Iron Cage/Codex Stand-Off forced him to confront it. What he chose to do was split his psyche into several parts corresponding to the IF successors. His Darkness, his razor-edge dance with heresy, became the fanatical Black Templars. Whatever broken hope was left to him became the Crimson Fists. And for himself he kept only his indefatiguable sense of duty and loyalty, such that the IF became second only to the UM in rigid adherence to the Codex.

I' dont get how did Dorn split his legion into a codex /anti-codex,fanatical /best codex chapters, after nearly going to war with IoM because of rejecting codex...!?

I' mean @Manchu I can't understand his actions after heresy no matter how they put them...Was he a total wreck after Emp died ? Split personality, maybe ?

You can find my in-depth thoughts on the matter here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271354.page

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Things seemed to improve after the Iron Cage, but the persona he adopts after that is a cover up, he's still dead inside.

I think you're familiar with my views on Dorn but just in case we've never gone over it, I think Dorn was on the edge of falling after the HH and the Iron Cage/Codex Stand-Off forced him to confront it. What he chose to do was split his psyche into several parts corresponding to the IF successors. His Darkness, his razor-edge dance with heresy, became the fanatical Black Templars. Whatever broken hope was left to him became the Crimson Fists. And for himself he kept only his indefatiguable sense of duty and loyalty, such that the IF became second only to the UM in rigid adherence to the Codex.

I am aware of some of your ideas on Dorn, Manchu.

According to the Legion of the Damned and the Excoriators Chapter, I think it is, every Son of Dorn suffers from the Darkness that Dorn felt, it's like the Black Rage of the Blood Angels. It apparently goes hand in hand with the necessity to inflict pain upon ones self.

You could argue that the Black Templars are his hope and defiance, that one day they will win out and the old will return. His 'Fists, his pride and love for the Emperor accepting the natural order.

 DarthMarko wrote:
I' dont get how did Dorn split his legion into a codex /anti-codex,fanatical /best codex chapters, after nearly going to war with IoM because of rejecting codex...!?

I' mean @Manchu I can't understand his actions after heresy no matter how they put them...Was he a total wreck after Emp died ? Split personality, maybe ?

He didn't have much choice, it was accept the new way or start another war that would this time end the Imperium, he had lost enough already. Dorn was not the Stone Man anymore after this.

 Manchu wrote:
You can find my in-depth thoughts on the matter here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271354.page

I will have a gander Mr Manchu, this was before my time here on Dakka so will be interesting.

It gets pretty flamey.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
You could argue that the Black Templars are his hope and defiance

Defiance? Yes. Hope? No.

 Manchu wrote:
It gets pretty flamey.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
You could argue that the Black Templars are his hope and defiance

Defiance? Yes. Hope? No.

But Manchu, you missed this part

pilau rice wrote:that one day they will win out and the old will return

Hope might be the wrong word, I will have a read of that thread and will get back to you on why you say hope = no.

The Black Templars are and angry bunch but not very dour, that's the Dark Angels

The BT can never stand for the Great Crusade era or its return. That's why their armor is black -- (1) they are in mourning and (2) like the whole Imperium, they are besmirched/dirtied/etc by the Heresy.

 Manchu wrote:
The BT can never stand for the Great Crusade era or its return. That's why their armor is black -- (1) they are in mourning and (2) like the whole Imperium, they are besmirched/dirtied/etc by the Heresy.

You can still wear black, be in mourning, but have the intention of getting back whats yours. They are in mourning because they lost the Emperor, their crusade is to take back from the scum of the universe what was once theirs and what was lost during those dark times.

They love the old Imperium and want to get back that ex that they lost all those years ago!

Attempted to roll with the love notion!

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
The BT can never stand for the Great Crusade era or its return. That's why their armor is black -- (1) they are in mourning and (2) like the whole Imperium, they are besmirched/dirtied/etc by the Heresy.

They love the old Imperium and want to get back that ex that they lost all those years ago!

But if they love "old IoM", why aren't they sticking to the imperial truth ???

 Pilau Rice wrote:
their crusade is to take back from the scum of the universe what was once theirs and what was lost during those dark times

I disagree. "Taking back" is not just a matter of killing xenos and CSM when we're talking about the Great Crusade. The Great Crusade was about bringing light and unity to the galaxy for mankind. The BT do not at all represent that, with their religious zealotry. They are the antithesis of the Great Crusade.

Yes during the Great Crusade mankind did more then simply "take back" lost worlds. They also exterminated countless xenos species.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
their crusade is to take back from the scum of the universe what was once theirs and what was lost during those dark times

I disagree. "Taking back" is not just a matter of killing xenos and CSM when we're talking about the Great Crusade. The Great Crusade was about bringing light and unity to the galaxy for mankind. The BT do not at all represent that, with their religious zealotry. They are the antithesis of the Great Crusade.

Now, yeah, you are probably right, but when they started off, who knows. They still have some decency and good intention in them.

 Harriticus wrote:
Yes during the Great Crusade mankind did more then simply "take back" lost worlds. They also exterminated countless xenos species.

Was that aimed at me?

I'm fully aware of that, I just didn't feel the need to list every specific task expected of a Space Marine during the Great Crusade. I'll go back and edit my post if you would like, can you give me some help and give me everything required of a Space Marine at this time please.

Stefan and Cally Samstag in Titanicus. She's forced to go to war with the PDF so Stefan goes crazy.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
They still have some decency and good intention in them.

I haven't read anything about them outside of their dex but am wondering of what that decency and goodness consists. Not saying theyre evil -- just wondering what "good" they do compared to, say, UM.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
They still have some decency and good intention in them.

I haven't read anything about them outside of their dex but am wondering of what that decency and goodness consists. Not saying their evil -- just wondering what "good" they do compared to, say, UM.

Well, they aren't raping and pillaging or fallen to Chaos, they are still on their crusade dealing death to the Emperors foes and acting when they are needed. That seems pretty decent to me, regardless of it being there duty or not. They have called this crusade and have kept true to it since the Heresy and never faltered.

IA: Black Templars
As High Marshal of the Black Templars, Sigismund declared that after leaving Terra, he would prove his loyally, never resting in the prosecution of his duties against the enemies of the Emperor. lt is an oath that every subsequent High Marshal has renewed, and so the greatest and longest Space Marine crusade was begun. It has continued unbroken for ten thousand years

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
The BT can never stand for the Great Crusade era or its return. That's why their armor is black -- (1) they are in mourning and (2) like the whole Imperium, they are besmirched/dirtied/etc by the Heresy.

They love the old Imperium and want to get back that ex that they lost all those years ago!

But if they love "old IoM", why aren't they sticking to the imperial truth ???

Because the "imperial truth" was given up on by their Primarch when he still commanded the whole Legion?

Thus they stick to the other side of the "imperial truth" : ie only a dead xeno/traitor/mutant is a good one.

OtoH, find me one chapter , one organzation in the Imperium of Man that carries on with the "imperial truth".

The fluff never stated they run with the beliefs of the pre-heresy era, it said they carry on with the military part of it, the crusade itself.

Sometimes, I wonder what separate SM and CSM beyond what phrase they scream as they try to kill each other. With the UM, SW, and Salamanders, I can see how they're "good guys" even in the world of 40k. With the BT ... put it to you like this: there's a scene at the beginning of Siege of Castellax where one of the IW's slaves is caught making the sign of the Aquila. An IW breaks his arm, has him suspended over a vat of molten lava, a lowed a centimeter every further moment that he does not (for he cannot) make the sign of the Aquila again. Now what would a BT who caught a Chapter serf worshiping Chaos do? Would it be as sadistic? If not, is that the only difference between the BT "good guys" and IW "bad guys"? Just food for thought. Dorn had a dark, dark streak in him. His "id" was pretty fething sinister if the BT are any indication. As I hypothesize in the other thread, the only way they manage to keep from busting out with praise to the Ruinous Powers is to swing as hard as possible toward the opposite way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 1hadhq wrote:
OtoH, find me one chapter , one organzation in the Imperium of Man that carries on with the "imperial truth".

The Ultramarines and their closest successors.

Not wearing the face of your previous Captain on your pauldron is a good start.

They are the Emperors finest, that's why they don't fall. They might have diverged from the original intention but they are still the Emperors and Dorns sons.

 1hadhq wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

OtoH, find me one chapter , one organzation in the Imperium of Man that carries on with the "imperial truth".

SW

Also, when did Dorn started worshiping? (source)

 Manchu wrote:
Sometimes, I wonder what separate SM and CSM beyond what phrase they scream as they try to kill each other

You don't know the wellknown basics? I Am shocked..

 Manchu wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:
OtoH, find me one chapter , one organzation in the Imperium of Man that carries on with the "imperial truth".

The Ultramarines and their closest successors.

No.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
They might have diverged from the original intention but they are still the Emperors and Dorns sons.

I never doubted that they are Dorn's sons. But they express nothing of the Emperor's vision ... unless you believe the Emperor wanted things to be like they are in M41/42.

 DarthMarko wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

OtoH, find me one chapter , one organzation in the Imperium of Man that carries on with the "imperial truth".

SW

Also, when did Dorn started worshiping? (source)

SW? less than the others. They follow their own truth...

Plus, Dorn worshipped no one. Why should it be neccessary if you realize the "imperial truth " as it was is lost?

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
They might have diverged from the original intention but they are still the Emperors and Dorns sons.

I never doubted that they are Dorn's sons. But they express nothing of the Emperor's vision ... unless you believe the Emperor wanted things to be like they are in M41/42.

The Emperor probably didn't want Astartes running around in M41/2

Despite of how they prosecute the Emperors will there are none more loyal to the Emperor.

I can't imagine the Emperor being that unhappy with the Templars, they are doing what they are supposed to after all, albeit to the extreme.

 DarthMarko wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

OtoH, find me one chapter , one organzation in the Imperium of Man that carries on with the "imperial truth".

SW

Also, when did Dorn started worshiping? (source)

They have their own idea of the Emperor so it's not even the Imperial Truth nor Creed.

Do the Black Templars actually worship the Emperor though, they just seem to be a bit more hardcore in their dedication than the other Chapters

All Space Marines are renowned for their fervent dedication, but the extremity of the Black Templars` faith is often described as fanatical even rabid!

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Despite of how they prosecute the Emperors will there are none more loyal to the Emperor.

Would you say the same about the Ecclesiarchy?

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Despite of how they prosecute the Emperors will there are none more loyal to the Emperor.

Would you say the same about the Ecclesiarchy?

No, because they aren't a Space Marine chapter

I'm not saying that they are the most loyal, because there are any number of Astartes Chapters out their that would deem themselves to be the most loyal, Just keeping in flow with the nature of this thread.

 1hadhq wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

OtoH, find me one chapter , one organzation in the Imperium of Man that carries on with the "imperial truth".

SW

Also, when did Dorn started worshiping? (source)

SW? less than the others. They follow their own truth...

Plus, Dorn worshipped no one. Why should it be neccessary if you realize the "imperial truth " as it was is lost?

Well not the the letter - but they still clash with fanatics who are calling Emp a God...You can't argue with that....
Still I'think Dorn was more headstrong and blindly following orders (IT) even after Emps death(not sure on that, though)...


Ooo,and agree with @Pilau, IF and Dorn were one of the most loyal dudes....

 Pilau Rice wrote:
No, because they aren't a Space Marine chapter

Bit weak ... but I suppose it's all just opinion. Mine happens to be that the BT represent a terrible perversion of the Great Crusade ideals.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
No, because they aren't a Space Marine chapter

Bit weak ... but I suppose it's all just opinion. Mine happens to be that the BT represent a terrible perversion of the Great Crusade ideals.

I' share your opinion -but they are nice add to the grimdark of 40k though....

Yeah, they are cool no doubt.

I think the Shadows of Treachery story, 'The Crimson Fist' is shedding more light on all the black templar stuff.

In saying that, I'm only about half way through the story.

Please explain (using spoiler tags).

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
No, because they aren't a Space Marine chapter

Bit weak ... but I suppose it's all just opinion. Mine happens to be that the BT represent a terrible perversion of the Great Crusade ideals.

Not really, we were discussing chapters, you now want to encompass the Ecclessiarchy in our ever increasing off topic conversation about Love?

I see what you say about the ideals, but they are just as extreme in their execution as other Chapters now or other Legions then.

 Manchu wrote:
Yeah, they are cool no doubt.

Bleh, they are ok

 Compel wrote:
I think the Shadows of Treachery story, 'The Crimson Fist' is shedding more light on all the black templar stuff.

In saying that, I'm only about half way through the story.

Not sure what you are pointing out here but what happens between Crimson Fist and the Siege of Terra is a who knows .. I think I have an idea of what you might say.

I'd kinda like to wait until I actually finish the story but, the impression I've gotten from it so far is...



Again, I repeat, I am only halfway through the story.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Not really, we were discussing chapters, you now want to encompass the Ecclessiarchy in our ever increasing off topic conversation about Love?

My point was that the BT -- because of their apparent worship of the Emperor -- are "loyal" to him in the same sense of the Ecclesiarchy. Whether they are Space Marines is irrelevant to the comparison (except inasmuch as the Space Marines should know better than mere mortals about the Great Crusade); what is relevant is the shared faith.

There was a love story in the 'Fear The Alien' collection of short stories, about a Dark Eldar Archon falling in love with a Wych Succubus (I think) and how he tries to woo her.

It's more funny than serious but a good read

 Manchu wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:
OtoH, find me one chapter , one organzation in the Imperium of Man that carries on with the "imperial truth".

The Ultramarines and their closest successors.

I agree. The Ultramarines and their successors are the generic marines, and would be the general description for the Astartes in general. And their home worlds are the most prosperous and arguably the best places to live in the whole galaxy. And that's not all: the Realm of Ultramar is the foundation of Ultima Segmentum. That alone should be proof enough they follow the Imperial Truth (its progressive side at least) - the cardinal worlds of the Imperial Church do not form the foundation of any Imperial territory.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Not really, we were discussing chapters, you now want to encompass the Ecclessiarchy in our ever increasing off topic conversation about Love?

My point was that the BT -- because of their apparent worship of the Emperor -- are "loyal" to him in the same sense of the Ecclesiarchy. Whether they are Space Marines is irrelevant to the comparison (except inasmuch as the Space Marines should know better than mere mortals about the Great Crusade); what is relevant is the shared faith.

Worship the Emperor? BT ???

Maybe less than UM worship Gulliman.

BT are as loyal as all of the former Imperial fists , the sons of dorn, are. However , mr Imperium secundus, isn't so loyal to the Emperor himself, isn't he?

Certain 'legions' love themselves too much, and one of them is running around in blue war plate..

 Rysaer wrote:
There was a love story in the 'Fear The Alien' collection of short stories, about a Dark Eldar Archon falling in love with a Wych Succubus (I think) and how he tries to woo her.

It's more funny than serious but a good read

I read that story... it was wicked boss awesome... I read it from the '25 for 25' book though.

I think its a neato example about how love can have the possibility of coming about in the 40k Grimverse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 djphranq wrote:

 Rysaer wrote:
There was a love story in the 'Fear The Alien' collection of short stories, about a Dark Eldar Archon falling in love with a Wych Succubus (I think) and how he tries to woo her.

It's more funny than serious but a good read

I read that story... it was wicked boss awesome... I read it from the '25 for 25' book though.

I think its a neato example about how romance can have the possibility of coming about in the 40k Grimverse.

Offically, there is no love, ever.
However the web is filled with fanfic about 40K love. /tg/ for example contributes largely to the fanfic. Examples are Love can Blood, Kreig and Me, Raege's Ragged Edges, etc.
Go to 1d4chan if you want to find out more.

 Novelist47 wrote:
Offically, there is no love, ever.
.

except officially in the codexes, novels and other places

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Not really, we were discussing chapters, you now want to encompass the Ecclessiarchy in our ever increasing off topic conversation about Love?

My point was that the BT -- because of their apparent worship of the Emperor -- are "loyal" to him in the same sense of the Ecclesiarchy. Whether they are Space Marines is irrelevant to the comparison (except inasmuch as the Space Marines should know better than mere mortals about the Great Crusade); what is relevant is the shared faith.

Apparent worship does not equate to worship though, I don't think they are as into the whole religious aspect of the Emperor love as the Ecclesiarchy are and aren't God Emperor this God Emperor that. They worship the Emperor for being the best of men, as with many other Chapter, just more so, but don't recognise him as a God.

I haven't read the codex so I could be wrong.

 ENOZONE wrote:
Love is a powerful catalyst in war. It often causes them. Are there examples of love in the Grimdark setting?

Several characters in Dan Abnett books have 'romances', which are mostly cold and informal sexual encounters.
Caffran in the Gaunt's Ghosts series, is one of the only characters to have a consistent, warm relationship.

Love. is. a. heresy.

 Viersche wrote:
Love. is. a. heresy.

Is it? The Emperor loved Horus to the end, didn't he? And he probably still does, even after all this time.

Ciaphas Cain and that Inquisitor who narrates and "edits" the story inside the novel. Inquisitor Ambrose or something.

Are they actually revealed as being lovers or are they kept separate from Cain's story?

There are quite a few 'fade to blacks' that occur but nothing that's ever really said obviously.

For example, there's a scene in one of the later stories when Cain turns up with a bottle of champagne etc, closes the door, then they move onto the next morning.

 Compel wrote:
There are quite a few 'fade to blacks' that occur but nothing that's ever really said obviously.

For example, there's a scene in one of the later stories when Cain turns up with a bottle of champagne etc, closes the door, then they move onto the next morning.

After drinking the wine himself, not being able to perform and sobbing into his pillow with the lady feeling all let down ... GRIMMMMDAARRKKKKKKKKKKKK

Everytime he looks into her eyes, he can only see the faces of all those troopers he executed. The drink doesn't help.

GRRRRRIMDAAAARK.

 Rysaer wrote:
There was a love story in the 'Fear The Alien' collection of short stories, about a Dark Eldar Archon falling in love with a Wych Succubus (I think) and how he tries to woo her.

It's more funny than serious but a good read

I actually think this handled love well, even though there's no love in it (and that's precisely why). It showed the lack of empathy/human emotion that the Dark Eldar have and how they can't even comprehend concepts like selflessness.

 Manchu wrote:
Everytime he looks into her eyes, he can only see the faces of all those troopers he executed. The drink doesn't help.

GRRRRRIMDAAAARK.

The bottle gradually gets emptier and the stories get more horrific.

Emptier and emptier, where her eyes get wider and wider.

He awakes in the morning noticing the blood, so much blood and the cold corpse next to him, with the eyes gauged out, wrists slashed and a broken bottle in her hand.

GRRRRRRIMMMMMMMMMDARRRKKKKKKKKKKK

He thought of his father and should have felt proud. This man had undertaken divine labors: he united Holy Terra after uncounted ages of darkness, co-opted the recalcitrant priests of Mars into his masterful vision, and led humanity in the reconquest of the stars. How then did he also allow his sons to be stolen away and tortured so? How then did he return to invalidate what little meaning they had scavenged from their exiles? Whatever he should have felt, the Primarch felt no warmth of affection nor even a cold pride in his sire.

GRRRRRIMDAAAAAARK

This is actually an awesome way to answer OP's question.

He was a son of the Emperor, created to lead by example, to be a shining bastion of what a mortal could be. But no matter how hard he tried to love the Emperor and to shine as bright as he, he always returned to the darkness that welcomed him and it embraced him with the screams and cries of those he should be saving.

Edit: forgot the GRRRRRIMMMMMMMMDAARRRKKKKKKKKKK

I think you forgot the love part with that one, too.

 Decio wrote:
Ciaphas Cain and that Inquisitor who narrates and "edits" the story inside the novel. Inquisitor Ambrose or something.

Are they actually revealed as being lovers or are they kept separate from Cain's story?

Amberely Vail.

Strangely enough Ms Vail never actually states they were lovers - but I feel its pretty clear they were - certainly Cain seems to have deep feelings for her...............

 Manchu wrote:
I think you forgot the love part with that one, too.

REVENGE!

amended