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 Pilau Rice wrote:
Perhaps a reason why Asartes themselves don't seem to be attracted to the ladies, maybe it's just ingrained in their psyches?

I have no trouble with the idea of celibate Space Marines. They're warrior monks after all. But if a Primarch crashes on your planet, he's going to immediately be the most eligible bachelor globally. (Except maybe Konrad, who seems like a creeper.)

Most of the (IMO) better BL novels have love in them, although mostly with humans as a contrast to the loveless regime of the Astartes. Also quite a few of them are doomed........but they are there.

Cain novels - obviously
Helsreach: several lovers are main characters
Night Lords: main human characters (well ones a Navigator but still)
Guants Ghosts: many and varied, marriage and children
Tide of Iron: main human resistance fighters
Titanicus: major human characters
Know no Fear: Quite touching one between two senior members of the Mechancius
Desert Warriors: main protagonists

and so on

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Perhaps a reason why Asartes themselves don't seem to be attracted to the ladies, maybe it's just ingrained in their psyches?

I have no trouble with the idea of celibate Space Marines. They're warrior monks after all. But if a Primarch crashes on your planet, he's going to immediately be the most eligible bachelor globally. (Except maybe Konrad, who seems like a creeper.)

Yes, but there isn't much point of him being the most eligible bachelor if he would rather play with his pistol rather than wine and dine a lady. I'm not saying they are gay or anything, just that the Emperor didn't make them that way. Even their notions of family are different, they might love the Emperor and their brothers, but it's not the same love that we know.

I think it's Loken that reflects on Mersadie that she might have been attractive, but since he's become Astartes his outlook on the opposite sex is different. In his pre Astartes years he might have been trying to hump her as soon as he laid eyes on her.

I once read a story about love, actually.

A man fell in love with a beautiful woman one day. The Inquisition heard of it and deemed the planet Extremis Diabolis on the grounds of Slaaneshi corruption. Within a week the planet was reduced to a floating hunk of glass and death.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Perhaps a reason why Asartes themselves don't seem to be attracted to the ladies, maybe it's just ingrained in their psyches?

I have no trouble with the idea of celibate Space Marines. They're warrior monks after all. But if a Primarch crashes on your planet, he's going to immediately be the most eligible bachelor globally. (Except maybe Konrad, who seems like a creeper.)

Yes, but there isn't much point of him being the most eligible bachelor if he would rather play with his pistol rather than wine and dine a lady. I'm not saying they are gay or anything, just that the Emperor didn't make them that way. Even their notions of family are different, they might love the Emperor and their brothers, but it's not the same love that we know.

Play with his pistol, eh?

I'm not discounting the possibility of gay primarchs. I hope we live in a day and age where most readers would be okay with that. The point remains: none of them seems to have had a special friend of any gender. I'm not sure that we can reason to what Primarchs are like on this score from the experience of Space Marines. Marines are humans inducted by relentless training, brain-washing, genetic therapy, psycho-surgery, and organ modification. To the best of our knowledge, the Primarchs never went through any of that. They just are who they are -- which admittedly entails, as you say, how the Emperor made them. But even that point is shaky given that the Emperor seems not to have had complete mastery regarding the method of their creation.

Agreed - plus Chaos played with them in the warp and therefore all bets are off.

Now the Emperor could have removed the appropriate equipment in their creation - both physically and emotionally but equally Chaos could have put it back - they gave one of them wings........

 Manchu wrote:

I'm not discounting the possibility of gay primarchs. I hope we live in a day and age where most readers would be okay with that. The point remains: none of them seems to have had a special friend of any gender. I'm not sure that we can reason to what Primarchs are like on this score from the experience of Space Marines. Marines are humans inducted by relentless training, brain-washing, genetic therapy, psycho-surgery, and organ modification. To the best of our knowledge, the Primarchs never went through any of that. They just are who they are -- which admittedly entails, as you say, how the Emperor made them. But even that point is shaky given that the Emperor seems not to have had complete mastery regarding the method of their creation.

Nor am I, I am just saying that they are beyond those kind of human feelings, or that's how they are supposed to be. What use is love or any notion of that to a being that is created solely to conquer and destroy? So, the Emperor might have had intentions for the Primarchs once Unification was completed, beyond destroying them once they have served their purpose, but other than being leaders or governors I don't think letting them settle down with a wife and kids was one of them.

Their upbringings on their respective worlds possibly would have had some influence on this, as mortals around them went to Space Las Vegas and they got hitched, but the theme for the Primarchs is that they weren't concerned other than for the well being of the populace as a whole. You can't have a warrior concerned about his better half whilst he's away duking it out on some god forsaken armpit of a planet, what might she be doing whilst he's away, she, or he, has needs too you know, you don't buy me space daisies anymore and he was there for me ... ... you get the idea

 Mr Morden wrote:

Now the Emperor could have removed the appropriate equipment in their creation - both physically and emotionally but equally Chaos could have put it back - they gave one of them wings........

 Pilau Rice wrote:
What use is love or any notion of that to a being that is created solely to conquer and destroy?

I just find it hard to imagine that the capacity for romantic love works on an on/off switch basis, even for a mastermind genetic engineer and psyker like the Emperor. I mean, he didn't manage to find the betrayal on/off switch. Then again, my theory is that he created some of them to turn on him.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Fear to tread seems to imply that the Wings were the Emperors design.

Daaaaaaaaaaamn. That's actually huge. Can you spell out how for me please? (spoiler tags/PM as necessary)

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
What use is love or any notion of that to a being that is created solely to conquer and destroy?

I just find it hard to imagine that the capacity for romantic love works on an on/off switch basis, even for a mastermind genetic engineer and psyker like the Emperor. I mean, he didn't manage to find the betrayal on/off switch. Then again, my theory is that he created some of them to turn on him.

I certainly understand where you're coming from Manchu, but you're thinking like a soft squidgy human, The Primarchs were made in a glass tank that had bits of the Emperors noggin' thrown into the mix and if anyone is removed from mortal foibles it's the Emperor, regardless of his naughty escapades.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Spoiler:

Fear to tread seems to imply that the Wings were the Emperors design.

Daaaaaaaaaaamn. That's actually huge. Can you spell out how for me please? (spoiler tags/PM as necessary)

It's how I felt it came across



Edit: Felt I had better spoiler that as it received such a reaction

I'll have to re-read that novel - thanks most interesting as I always considered that the wings were the most obvious legacy of the Chaos abduction

 Mr Morden wrote:
I'll have to re-read that novel - thanks most interesting as I always considered that the wings were the most obvious legacy of the Chaos abduction

But we know from other books that certain aspects of the Primarchs were intentional, ones that we might think were clear warp taint.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
if anyone is removed from mortal foibles it's the Emperor, regardless of his naughty escapades.

Perhaps the lesson is that the Primarchs can experience humanity's most petty
delusions but have no ability to participate in its most transcendent realities.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
It's how I felt it came across

I suppose. Ambiguity is the watch word of this series ... and it's getting a bit old, honestly.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I always considered that the wings were the most obvious legacy of the Chaos abduction

Me, too. Not sure where I got that idea. Index Astartes? The general hatred of mutation?Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
But we know from other books that certain aspects of the Primarchs were intentional, ones that we might think were clear warp taint.

Who are you thinking of?

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
if anyone is removed from mortal foibles it's the Emperor, regardless of his naughty escapades.

Perhaps the lesson is that the Primarchs can experience humanity's most petty
delusions but have no ability to participate in its most transcendent realities

They already know what they need too and can relate to certain relationships, but they have never needed to find out about how to intimate, so don't know or even feel the need ti instigate one.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
It's how I felt it came across

I suppose. Ambiguity is the watch word of this series ... and it's getting a bit old, honestly.

I don't think it's going to change though, which is a shame perhaps. Some things need to be kept ambiguous, others they should maybe not even touch upon. I think at times, that the whole series should just have been left alone.

 Manchu wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I always considered that the wings were the most obvious legacy of the Chaos abduction

Me, too. Not sure where I got that idea. Index Astartes? The general hatred of mutation?

Well the IA says

Some among those who entertain such unwholesome beliefs say that it is because Sanguinius was more touched by Chaos than the other infant Primarchs. They cite the fact that he possessed wings - an obvious mutation - to support their case. Their argument runs that the gene-seed which was extracted from him was flawed even before the first Blood Angels were created, and thus terrible consequences were preordained.

But as we learn, some of the Primarchs did have intentional mutations bred into them. Would someone who does not understand Primarch genetic material have any other way of explaining how the Angel had wings? Maybe it was the intention of the Emperor to have an Angel at his side, knowing of the darkness that was approaching. It might be more than coinkidink. There are no Daemons, but you made an Angel.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
But we know from other books that certain aspects of the Primarchs were intentional, ones that we might think were clear warp taint.

Who are you thinking of?

Got to be the big doggy Russ hasn't it, if you didn't know about the Canis Helix and the Emperors designs you would think Beast.

Ah but with Russ, it's the opposite story from Sanguinius. The Canis Helix business is well known and all the Pups have it. No BA have (living) wings, however. I suppose the wulfen deal, which I'm not totally sure exists anymore, gets to the same point.

Back to love and the primarchs, your points are supported by the fact that so many of them had trouble with or flat-out lacked parental figures. I guess Guilliman comes closest to having a normal, healthy relationship with his adoptive father although we don't know many details about it. Some of them seem very attached to the Emperor, as well, in a sense that goes beyond mere duty (ironically, not Guilliman). Others, like Mortarian and Curze has experiences that would traumatize and desensitize anyone. Perturabo is the best example of your theory in practice but there is clearly something wrong with him.

 Manchu wrote:
Ah but with Russ, it's the opposite story from Sanguinius. The Canis Helix business is well known and all the Pups have it. No BA have (living) wings, however. I suppose the wulfen deal, which I'm not totally sure exists anymore, gets to the same point.

Ah but no but True of a Space Marine, but what of the people on Fenris or to anyone who doesn't know about the Canis Helix. The Blood Angels might not share the wings, but they share the Red Thirst which is from the Primarchs Geneseed. It's the same dealio in a way.

 Manchu wrote:
Back to love and the primarchs, your points are supported by the fact that so many of them had trouble with or flat-out lacked parental figures. I guess Guilliman comes closest to having a normal, healthy relationship with his adoptive father although we don't know many details about it. Some of them seem very attached to the Emperor, as well, in a sense that goes beyond mere duty (ironically, not Guilliman). Others, like Mortarian and Curze has experiences that would traumatize and desensitize anyone. Perturabo is the best example of your theory in practice but there is clearly something wrong with him.

Wasn't Dorn pretty close to his adoptive father on Inwit, I think it's a fairly common trait shared by the loyalist ones is that they were at least able to form some form of relationship with the people around them, without suspecting them all the time. Perturabo is a dark character, I wonder what made him like that. With the Primarchs though I don't know if it is an emotion that makes them that way or if it is like with the Custodes, that they have that inbuilt into them. Sure they have an attachment to him of sorts, but is it love?

At least Curze knows how it feels to be a human on the inside .. ok, have a human

Dorn is certainly the clingiest of the Primarchs relative to the Emperor. He also had a security blanket, though. :/

Hoo boy, daddy issues everywhere.

 Manchu wrote:
Dorn is certainly the clingiest of the Primarchs relative to the Emperor. He also had a security blanket, though. :/

But with Dorn is this more his problem with obsession than a specific emotion, like with pain, it's his duty to serve the Emperor and he will do it to his all. He's, at times at least, the most human Primarch to me, despite his stone hard exterior on the inside he's a soft as fluff.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Dorn is certainly the clingiest of the Primarchs relative to the Emperor. He also had a security blanket, though. :/

But with Dorn is this more his problem with obsession than a specific emotion, like with pain, it's his duty to serve the Emperor and he will do it to his all. He's, at times at least, the most human Primarch to me, despite his stone hard exterior on the inside he's a soft as fluff.

Ever read The Last Remembrancer? That man, Solomon Voss, was the most Human character in 40k I've ever encountered. But more to the point, you can see that while Dorn had clung to his ideals up to then, being forced to kill Voss and abandon the Imperium's ideals of truth and reason for the sake of the future pushed him to the breaking point. Which ultimately culminated with Dorn turning into an emo wreck after the Siege of Terra.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Dorn is certainly the clingiest of the Primarchs relative to the Emperor. He also had a security blanket, though. :/

But with Dorn is this more his problem with obsession than a specific emotion, like with pain, it's his duty to serve the Emperor and he will do it to his all. He's, at times at least, the most human Primarch to me, despite his stone hard exterior on the inside he's a soft as fluff.

Ever read The Last Remembrancer? That man, Solomon Voss, was the most Human character in 40k I've ever encountered. But more to the point, you can see that while Dorn had clung to his ideals up to then, being forced to kill Voss and abandon the Imperium's ideals of truth and reason for the sake of the future pushed him to the breaking point. Which ultimately culminated with Dorn turning into an emo wreck after the Siege of Terra.

That was what failing his father did, that no mater how hard he had tried he still failed, that's what broke him. Things started to slip away from him before he boarded the Vengeful Spirit, but having to carry out his fathers decimated corpse was the final nail in the coffin of his psyche.

Things seemed to improve after the Iron Cage, but the persona he adopts after that is a cover up, he's still dead inside.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


That was what failing his father did, that no mater how hard he had tried he still failed, that's what broke him. Things started to slip away from him before he boarded the Vengeful Spirit, but having to carry out his fathers decimated corpse was the final nail in the coffin of his psyche.

Things seemed to improve after the Iron Cage, but the persona he adopts after that is a cover up, he's still dead inside.

He 'died' on Titan, you could tell by the way that not even Iacton Qruze, who survived the hell of Istvaan III, could look at him in the face before he executed the last relic of the Imperium's lost ideals. Or how he could never answer Voss about what will he rebuild the Imperium from. Poor Dorn...

EDIT: Just like to ask this, had the roles been reversed, and Dorn had turned traitor instead of Horus, and Horus was at the Imperial Palace, would he have taken the loss better or worse? No other Primarch was as close to the Emperor as Horus was, given the relatively long time he spent as the Emperor's only son before another Primarch was found.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

He 'died' on Titan, you could tell by the way that not even Iacton Qruze, who survived the hell of Istvaan III, could look at him in the face before he executed the last relic of the Imperium's lost ideals. Or how he could never answer Voss about what will he rebuild the Imperium from. Poor Dorn...

Well, we'll have to disagree here, he still had hope at this point, the old rule might be gone but with the Emperor there was still a future. I got fear from that story, fear of what was to come and what the future would hold. Fear is the reoccurring theme with Dorn currently. It's why he couldn't read what Voss had wrote, he was afraid of what he might find out.

I think if it had been Horus at the Emperors side, he would have died instead of Sanguinius. Horus bought Sanguinius to him as a last ditch effort to bring him to his side, I think if Dorn was the traitor then Horus would be the one to try and win over.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

He 'died' on Titan, you could tell by the way that not even Iacton Qruze, who survived the hell of Istvaan III, could look at him in the face before he executed the last relic of the Imperium's lost ideals. Or how he could never answer Voss about what will he rebuild the Imperium from. Poor Dorn...

Well, we'll have to disagree here, he still had hope at this point, the old rule might be gone but with the Emperor there was still a future. I got fear from that story, fear of what was to come and what the future would hold. Fear is the reoccurring theme with Dorn currently. It's why he couldn't read what Voss had wrote, he was afraid of what he might find out.

I can respect that.

I think if it had been Horus at the Emperors side, he would have died instead of Sanguinius. Horus bought Sanguinius to him as a last ditch effort to bring him to his side, I think if Dorn was the traitor then Horus would be the one to try and win over.

And Sanguinius would have been left to mourn over Horus and the Emperor in Dorn's place? Still, I get the feeling Sanguinius could have coped with the loss better.

EDIT: Regarding Voss' last work, I suspect he foresaw the rise of the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy, the abandonment of progress for ultimate stagnation and collapse via perpetuation of the current system, and so on.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


That was what failing his father did, that no mater how hard he had tried he still failed, that's what broke him. Things started to slip away from him before he boarded the Vengeful Spirit, but having to carry out his fathers decimated corpse was the final nail in the coffin of his psyche.

Things seemed to improve after the Iron Cage, but the persona he adopts after that is a cover up, he's still dead inside.

He 'died' on Titan, you could tell by the way that not even Iacton Qruze, who survived the hell of Istvaan III, could look at him in the face before he executed the last relic of the Imperium's lost ideals. Or how he could never answer Voss about what will he rebuild the Imperium from. Poor Dorn...

EDIT: Just like to ask this, had the roles been reversed, and Dorn had turned traitor instead of Horus, and Horus was at the Imperial Palace, would he have taken the loss better or worse? No other Primarch was as close to the Emperor as Horus was, given the relatively long time he spent as the Emperor's only son before another Primarch was found.

Dornian Conspiracy. Google it, its a good read!

Do you mean the Dornian heresy? if so I second that!

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Do you mean the Dornian heresy? if so I second that!

Si. I should sleep more. The link http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=200543

They also did a few more Legions after that first batch as well! Sorry to go Off-topic OP.

I downloaded the Dornian Heresy, had a bit of a read of it, so much of it seemed incredibly forced.

Blood Angels becoming Plague Marines...

The thing with Dorn I like, is how he becomes the living embodiment of the transition from the Imperium of 30k to the Imperium of 40k.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Things seemed to improve after the Iron Cage, but the persona he adopts after that is a cover up, he's still dead inside.

I think you're familiar with my views on Dorn but just in case we've never gone over it, I think Dorn was on the edge of falling after the HH and the Iron Cage/Codex Stand-Off forced him to confront it. What he chose to do was split his psyche into several parts corresponding to the IF successors. His Darkness, his razor-edge dance with heresy, became the fanatical Black Templars. Whatever broken hope was left to him became the Crimson Fists. And for himself he kept only his indefatiguable sense of duty and loyalty, such that the IF became second only to the UM in rigid adherence to the Codex.

I' dont get how did Dorn split his legion into a codex /anti-codex,fanatical /best codex chapters, after nearly going to war with IoM because of rejecting codex...!?

I' mean @Manchu I can't understand his actions after heresy no matter how they put them...Was he a total wreck after Emp died ? Split personality, maybe ?

You can find my in-depth thoughts on the matter here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271354.page

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Things seemed to improve after the Iron Cage, but the persona he adopts after that is a cover up, he's still dead inside.

I think you're familiar with my views on Dorn but just in case we've never gone over it, I think Dorn was on the edge of falling after the HH and the Iron Cage/Codex Stand-Off forced him to confront it. What he chose to do was split his psyche into several parts corresponding to the IF successors. His Darkness, his razor-edge dance with heresy, became the fanatical Black Templars. Whatever broken hope was left to him became the Crimson Fists. And for himself he kept only his indefatiguable sense of duty and loyalty, such that the IF became second only to the UM in rigid adherence to the Codex.

I am aware of some of your ideas on Dorn, Manchu.

According to the Legion of the Damned and the Excoriators Chapter, I think it is, every Son of Dorn suffers from the Darkness that Dorn felt, it's like the Black Rage of the Blood Angels. It apparently goes hand in hand with the necessity to inflict pain upon ones self.

You could argue that the Black Templars are his hope and defiance, that one day they will win out and the old will return. His 'Fists, his pride and love for the Emperor accepting the natural order.

 DarthMarko wrote:
I' dont get how did Dorn split his legion into a codex /anti-codex,fanatical /best codex chapters, after nearly going to war with IoM because of rejecting codex...!?

I' mean @Manchu I can't understand his actions after heresy no matter how they put them...Was he a total wreck after Emp died ? Split personality, maybe ?

He didn't have much choice, it was accept the new way or start another war that would this time end the Imperium, he had lost enough already. Dorn was not the Stone Man anymore after this.

 Manchu wrote:
You can find my in-depth thoughts on the matter here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271354.page

I will have a gander Mr Manchu, this was before my time here on Dakka so will be interesting.