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It gets pretty flamey.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
You could argue that the Black Templars are his hope and defiance

Defiance? Yes. Hope? No.

 Manchu wrote:
It gets pretty flamey.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
You could argue that the Black Templars are his hope and defiance

Defiance? Yes. Hope? No.

But Manchu, you missed this part

pilau rice wrote:that one day they will win out and the old will return

Hope might be the wrong word, I will have a read of that thread and will get back to you on why you say hope = no.

The Black Templars are and angry bunch but not very dour, that's the Dark Angels

The BT can never stand for the Great Crusade era or its return. That's why their armor is black -- (1) they are in mourning and (2) like the whole Imperium, they are besmirched/dirtied/etc by the Heresy.

 Manchu wrote:
The BT can never stand for the Great Crusade era or its return. That's why their armor is black -- (1) they are in mourning and (2) like the whole Imperium, they are besmirched/dirtied/etc by the Heresy.

You can still wear black, be in mourning, but have the intention of getting back whats yours. They are in mourning because they lost the Emperor, their crusade is to take back from the scum of the universe what was once theirs and what was lost during those dark times.

They love the old Imperium and want to get back that ex that they lost all those years ago!

Attempted to roll with the love notion!

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
The BT can never stand for the Great Crusade era or its return. That's why their armor is black -- (1) they are in mourning and (2) like the whole Imperium, they are besmirched/dirtied/etc by the Heresy.

They love the old Imperium and want to get back that ex that they lost all those years ago!

But if they love "old IoM", why aren't they sticking to the imperial truth ???

 Pilau Rice wrote:
their crusade is to take back from the scum of the universe what was once theirs and what was lost during those dark times

I disagree. "Taking back" is not just a matter of killing xenos and CSM when we're talking about the Great Crusade. The Great Crusade was about bringing light and unity to the galaxy for mankind. The BT do not at all represent that, with their religious zealotry. They are the antithesis of the Great Crusade.

Yes during the Great Crusade mankind did more then simply "take back" lost worlds. They also exterminated countless xenos species.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
their crusade is to take back from the scum of the universe what was once theirs and what was lost during those dark times

I disagree. "Taking back" is not just a matter of killing xenos and CSM when we're talking about the Great Crusade. The Great Crusade was about bringing light and unity to the galaxy for mankind. The BT do not at all represent that, with their religious zealotry. They are the antithesis of the Great Crusade.

Now, yeah, you are probably right, but when they started off, who knows. They still have some decency and good intention in them.

 Harriticus wrote:
Yes during the Great Crusade mankind did more then simply "take back" lost worlds. They also exterminated countless xenos species.

Was that aimed at me?

I'm fully aware of that, I just didn't feel the need to list every specific task expected of a Space Marine during the Great Crusade. I'll go back and edit my post if you would like, can you give me some help and give me everything required of a Space Marine at this time please.

Stefan and Cally Samstag in Titanicus. She's forced to go to war with the PDF so Stefan goes crazy.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
They still have some decency and good intention in them.

I haven't read anything about them outside of their dex but am wondering of what that decency and goodness consists. Not saying theyre evil -- just wondering what "good" they do compared to, say, UM.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
They still have some decency and good intention in them.

I haven't read anything about them outside of their dex but am wondering of what that decency and goodness consists. Not saying their evil -- just wondering what "good" they do compared to, say, UM.

Well, they aren't raping and pillaging or fallen to Chaos, they are still on their crusade dealing death to the Emperors foes and acting when they are needed. That seems pretty decent to me, regardless of it being there duty or not. They have called this crusade and have kept true to it since the Heresy and never faltered.

IA: Black Templars
As High Marshal of the Black Templars, Sigismund declared that after leaving Terra, he would prove his loyally, never resting in the prosecution of his duties against the enemies of the Emperor. lt is an oath that every subsequent High Marshal has renewed, and so the greatest and longest Space Marine crusade was begun. It has continued unbroken for ten thousand years

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
The BT can never stand for the Great Crusade era or its return. That's why their armor is black -- (1) they are in mourning and (2) like the whole Imperium, they are besmirched/dirtied/etc by the Heresy.

They love the old Imperium and want to get back that ex that they lost all those years ago!

But if they love "old IoM", why aren't they sticking to the imperial truth ???

Because the "imperial truth" was given up on by their Primarch when he still commanded the whole Legion?

Thus they stick to the other side of the "imperial truth" : ie only a dead xeno/traitor/mutant is a good one.

OtoH, find me one chapter , one organzation in the Imperium of Man that carries on with the "imperial truth".

The fluff never stated they run with the beliefs of the pre-heresy era, it said they carry on with the military part of it, the crusade itself.

Sometimes, I wonder what separate SM and CSM beyond what phrase they scream as they try to kill each other. With the UM, SW, and Salamanders, I can see how they're "good guys" even in the world of 40k. With the BT ... put it to you like this: there's a scene at the beginning of Siege of Castellax where one of the IW's slaves is caught making the sign of the Aquila. An IW breaks his arm, has him suspended over a vat of molten lava, a lowed a centimeter every further moment that he does not (for he cannot) make the sign of the Aquila again. Now what would a BT who caught a Chapter serf worshiping Chaos do? Would it be as sadistic? If not, is that the only difference between the BT "good guys" and IW "bad guys"? Just food for thought. Dorn had a dark, dark streak in him. His "id" was pretty fething sinister if the BT are any indication. As I hypothesize in the other thread, the only way they manage to keep from busting out with praise to the Ruinous Powers is to swing as hard as possible toward the opposite way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 1hadhq wrote:
OtoH, find me one chapter , one organzation in the Imperium of Man that carries on with the "imperial truth".

The Ultramarines and their closest successors.

Not wearing the face of your previous Captain on your pauldron is a good start.

They are the Emperors finest, that's why they don't fall. They might have diverged from the original intention but they are still the Emperors and Dorns sons.

 1hadhq wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

OtoH, find me one chapter , one organzation in the Imperium of Man that carries on with the "imperial truth".

SW

Also, when did Dorn started worshiping? (source)

 Manchu wrote:
Sometimes, I wonder what separate SM and CSM beyond what phrase they scream as they try to kill each other

You don't know the wellknown basics? I Am shocked..

 Manchu wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:
OtoH, find me one chapter , one organzation in the Imperium of Man that carries on with the "imperial truth".

The Ultramarines and their closest successors.

No.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
They might have diverged from the original intention but they are still the Emperors and Dorns sons.

I never doubted that they are Dorn's sons. But they express nothing of the Emperor's vision ... unless you believe the Emperor wanted things to be like they are in M41/42.

 DarthMarko wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

OtoH, find me one chapter , one organzation in the Imperium of Man that carries on with the "imperial truth".

SW

Also, when did Dorn started worshiping? (source)

SW? less than the others. They follow their own truth...

Plus, Dorn worshipped no one. Why should it be neccessary if you realize the "imperial truth " as it was is lost?

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
They might have diverged from the original intention but they are still the Emperors and Dorns sons.

I never doubted that they are Dorn's sons. But they express nothing of the Emperor's vision ... unless you believe the Emperor wanted things to be like they are in M41/42.

The Emperor probably didn't want Astartes running around in M41/2

Despite of how they prosecute the Emperors will there are none more loyal to the Emperor.

I can't imagine the Emperor being that unhappy with the Templars, they are doing what they are supposed to after all, albeit to the extreme.

 DarthMarko wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

OtoH, find me one chapter , one organzation in the Imperium of Man that carries on with the "imperial truth".

SW

Also, when did Dorn started worshiping? (source)

They have their own idea of the Emperor so it's not even the Imperial Truth nor Creed.

Do the Black Templars actually worship the Emperor though, they just seem to be a bit more hardcore in their dedication than the other Chapters

All Space Marines are renowned for their fervent dedication, but the extremity of the Black Templars` faith is often described as fanatical even rabid!

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Despite of how they prosecute the Emperors will there are none more loyal to the Emperor.

Would you say the same about the Ecclesiarchy?

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Despite of how they prosecute the Emperors will there are none more loyal to the Emperor.

Would you say the same about the Ecclesiarchy?

No, because they aren't a Space Marine chapter

I'm not saying that they are the most loyal, because there are any number of Astartes Chapters out their that would deem themselves to be the most loyal, Just keeping in flow with the nature of this thread.

 1hadhq wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

OtoH, find me one chapter , one organzation in the Imperium of Man that carries on with the "imperial truth".

SW

Also, when did Dorn started worshiping? (source)

SW? less than the others. They follow their own truth...

Plus, Dorn worshipped no one. Why should it be neccessary if you realize the "imperial truth " as it was is lost?

Well not the the letter - but they still clash with fanatics who are calling Emp a God...You can't argue with that....
Still I'think Dorn was more headstrong and blindly following orders (IT) even after Emps death(not sure on that, though)...


Ooo,and agree with @Pilau, IF and Dorn were one of the most loyal dudes....

 Pilau Rice wrote:
No, because they aren't a Space Marine chapter

Bit weak ... but I suppose it's all just opinion. Mine happens to be that the BT represent a terrible perversion of the Great Crusade ideals.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
No, because they aren't a Space Marine chapter

Bit weak ... but I suppose it's all just opinion. Mine happens to be that the BT represent a terrible perversion of the Great Crusade ideals.

I' share your opinion -but they are nice add to the grimdark of 40k though....

Yeah, they are cool no doubt.

I think the Shadows of Treachery story, 'The Crimson Fist' is shedding more light on all the black templar stuff.

In saying that, I'm only about half way through the story.

Please explain (using spoiler tags).

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
No, because they aren't a Space Marine chapter

Bit weak ... but I suppose it's all just opinion. Mine happens to be that the BT represent a terrible perversion of the Great Crusade ideals.

Not really, we were discussing chapters, you now want to encompass the Ecclessiarchy in our ever increasing off topic conversation about Love?

I see what you say about the ideals, but they are just as extreme in their execution as other Chapters now or other Legions then.

 Manchu wrote:
Yeah, they are cool no doubt.

Bleh, they are ok

 Compel wrote:
I think the Shadows of Treachery story, 'The Crimson Fist' is shedding more light on all the black templar stuff.

In saying that, I'm only about half way through the story.

Not sure what you are pointing out here but what happens between Crimson Fist and the Siege of Terra is a who knows .. I think I have an idea of what you might say.

I'd kinda like to wait until I actually finish the story but, the impression I've gotten from it so far is...



Again, I repeat, I am only halfway through the story.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Not really, we were discussing chapters, you now want to encompass the Ecclessiarchy in our ever increasing off topic conversation about Love?

My point was that the BT -- because of their apparent worship of the Emperor -- are "loyal" to him in the same sense of the Ecclesiarchy. Whether they are Space Marines is irrelevant to the comparison (except inasmuch as the Space Marines should know better than mere mortals about the Great Crusade); what is relevant is the shared faith.