So another player thats in my group decided to make his appearance again after disappearing for awhile, this time he came with his Grey Knights (he usually runs necrons). I run Orks, so we did a 1500pt game.

His entire army melted before my deffguns and SAGs with the exception of 2 things that literally won the game for him: Dreadknights.

I couldnt touch them. Due to the 2+ armor save, my shoota boyz and lootas never hurt him and due to his crazy melee attacks anything with a klaw that engaged it got instapasted.

How do you deal with these things? The only range attacks Orks have that are AP2+ are either the SAG (which is unlikely to hit a single target) or only fire one shot and still have a BS2, meaning even less likely than the SAG to land without sheer numbers (which isnt possible with these weapons).

This is what i ran:

HQ:
2 Big Meks w/ SAG, Cybork, Heavy Armor

Elites:
6 Lootas
6 Lootas
4 Nob Bikers w/ Klaws and BP

Troops:
4 groups of 12 Shoota boyz w/ Nobklaw and Bigshoota
All mounted in Trukks w/ Red Paint and Reinforced Rams

Fast Attacks:
Deffkopta w/ TL Rokkits x3 (3 individual models, not 1 unit)

There was practically nothing his army aside from those Dreadknights could do to me. By turn 2 he had his warboss, the 2 dreadknights, and a couple straggling minions on the board. I lost by annihilation rather than objectives because those DK's were unstoppable.

What, besides green tiding and hoping for dumb luck, could i do to take these things down?

Allies?

Orks don't have a lot of effective ranged weapons; against Dreadknights you're pretty much stuck hoping for dumb luck with a lot of fire.

Whats the stats on a DK again? I havnt read that dex since it launched

 KingCracker wrote:
Whats the stats on a DK again? I havnt read that dex since it launched

Basically Monstrous Creature in Terminator Armor with a PF

the knights are T6 with a 2+ save, and a DCCW that is also force


You best bet to kill it would be lootas, tons of them. Light him up, and hope to put on a ton of wounds.


Another option might be Killa Cans. KMB on them is BS3, S8 AP2, and you can even try to fight in close combat, but you will hit on a 5+ which is bad.




Lastly, the Knight will have maybe 4-5 attacks. If you slam a 30 man boy unit into them, it will take a long time to get that unit down to where it will not be fearless. You will get a bunch of attacks that wound on a 6+, but you might take it down eventually or just tie it up for a while

A PK Nob in the squad would not help, as the Knight is a Character and can challenge, so the klaw would die before it could swing and hurt the knight.

Tried out Zzap gunz?

Zzap guns are only attainable by Battlewagons and, on average, theyre weaker than Killkannons

Killkannons are 24" S7 AP3 Large Blast, Ordnance 1.
Zzaps are 36" S2D6 (on average 4-8str based on my luck with SAG rolls) AP 2 Heavy 1. Yes that additional AP is strong, but Toughness 7 means majority of the time i wouldnt be wounding that thing unless i rolled baller dice.
Also, Zzaps are bad for infantry. Once i take out the dread, if i do, what then? That BW took the points away from something else in my army that was also vital for the rest of his army.
To me, trading the large blast for a single shot of slightly better stats isnt worth it on a BW

EDIT: Hmm, my bad, i could have a zzap gun Big Gun operated by Gretchin, which wouldnt be...that bad since its BS3 and it would have T7. I is thinking....now....

Vineheart01 wrote:

EDIT: Hmm, my bad, i could have a zzap gun Big Gun operated by Gretchin, which wouldnt be...that bad since its BS3 and it would have T7. I is thinking....now....

That's what i ment and it's cheap! 30p for each kannon and then for more crew or ammo runts taking a aegies defence line they get cover 2+ because they are small targets. <3

Vineheart01 wrote:
Zzap guns are only attainable by Battlewagons and, on average, theyre weaker than Killkannons

Killkannons are 24" S7 AP3 Large Blast, Ordnance 1.
Zzaps are 36" S2D6 (on average 4-8str based on my luck with SAG rolls) AP 2 Heavy 1. Yes that additional AP is strong, but Toughness 7 means majority of the time i wouldnt be wounding that thing unless i rolled baller dice.
Also, Zzaps are bad for infantry. Once i take out the dread, if i do, what then? That BW took the points away from something else in my army that was also vital for the rest of his army.
To me, trading the large blast for a single shot of slightly better stats isnt worth it on a BW

EDIT: Hmm, my bad, i could have a zzap gun Big Gun operated by Gretchin, which wouldnt be...that bad since its BS3 and it would have T7. I is thinking....now....

Zzap guns should average S7 from 2d6...

Zzap gun is not ideal because its strength is variable and it is clearly designed to kill Terminators, not Monstrous Creatures with 6 toughness.

The problem you're dealing with with a Zap gun is the variable strength, which means you're not consistently wounding the Dreadknight. So even though you're cutting through the 2+ save, you've still got a rather mediocre rate of inflicting wounds and also you are still left with a 5+ invulnerable save.

Ideally you would be using Kustom Mega Blasters on Killa Kanz, but because Kustom Mega Blasters suck against anything else, it cannot sensibly be placed into an ordinary TAC list.

So that leaves either lots and lots of high strength attacks (Lootas) or Power Klaw attacks, neither of which are ideal because of the lack of a strong invulnerable save on any Ork unit in the Codex, even when you include independent characters.

Got any meganobs mine have taken down a few DK's without to much problem.

Always killed them through attrition or throwing something stupid at them. Like 6 Nob Bikers + Biker Boss. I'd only do that last resort though. Normally I drop them from sustained fire from tons of shootas/Lootas/Bikes Being Deffrolla'd sometimes pulls off a wound or two.

pepe5454 wrote:
Got any meganobs mine have taken down a few DK's without to much problem.

Weapon skill 5....

Hits on 3s with rerolls, wounds on 2s with rerolls, cuts through the 2+ save, no invuln, then instant death with 4 attacks, all at initiative 4 - yeah, no.

Meganobs would be worse than biker nobs because at least biker nobs get there faster.

To be honest, I'd just throw a 30 strong Shoota Boy squad at it and just tarpit it before it kills anything valuable. It can only kill a maximum of 4 Boyz per turn, and they're Fearless until they hit 10 models.

Multi charge.
With normal attacks you need what? 72 attacks to get a single wound on theDK.
Only Pk can reliably wound the DK. Multicharge with 2 mobs. One nob to decline the challenge, and one nob to take it down.

XC18 wrote:
Multi charge.
With normal attacks you need what? 72 attacks to get a single wound on theDK.
Only Pk can reliably wound the DK. Multicharge with 2 mobs. One nob to decline the challenge, and one nob to take it down.

you can also do this with a warboss AND a powerclaw nob. 19 shootaboys with nob and a warboss in a battleweagon. go for it!

You can also take 15 loota's with 3 Kustom Mega blasta meks and put them in a battlewagon and shoot from the open topped vehicle. at sum point those S8 ap2 shots will hit!

How about just nobz with couple pks. 7-8 with 3 pks should take them out. He can't challege you and you have naked nobz soaking the damage.

I suppose so. But the DK's hits are ID Ap2, so I'd better lose a boy than a nob each time he swings ;(

due to BS2, it seems to me like its literally just hope for dumb luck on dice.

Granted, that game i did ignore it with my lootas, big mistake, but still it was ridiculous. I first focused on taking out his transports (which both of them didnt even get to move muhahaha)

Use tons of Lootas and snap shot the thing to death by running and gunning. If he has only two Dreadknights left then there is no way you can lose on kill points or objectives. Troll around until the game ends.

That or you get the Greenskins Space Marines Chapter to fight with you.

I've played against a friend that uses dread knights. The last game he used two. He uses the teleporter for them, so I know I could not take them out in one turn. I just ignored them until my dakka jets came it. Waaaghed and had 18 twin linked shots at him. Was able to kill one by over loading his save rolls.

I recently got some Gretchin primarily for my ADL quad gun, but when i read what the runtherder did i think i found something to deal with dreadknights.

Grabba sticks.

30 Gretchin, 3 Runtherders all charge at a dreadknight. The rules ONLY say i cannot lower his attacks to less than 1, and it does not say it doesnt happen every turn. 30 Gretchin to go through one by one...he goin nowhere muhahaha

Vineheart01 wrote:Meganobs would be worse than biker nobs because at least biker nobs get there faster.

OMG no, this is an awful suggestion! Biker nobz have a huge challenge to make their points back and they aren't faster than meganobz since the meganobz can take a trukk with RPJ and actually move faster you just need to know how to use your trukks right so for 45 pts you could have something that crashes through terrain, tank shocks, and brings armor 2+ with 2 wounds death to the enemy with a hilarious kareen result or a giant FU, even if the trukk gets it's worse result, it's still S:3 explosion as opposed the 4's we normally get.

TedNugent wrote:To be honest, I'd just throw a 30 strong Shoota Boy squad at it and just tarpit it before it kills anything valuable. It can only kill a maximum of 4 Boyz per turn, and they're Fearless until they hit 10 models.

Correct, and not to mention you can hide a power klaw amongst the mob to crack the 2+ armor saves and wound it on a 2+... Just make sure the nob is in the mid to back. And shoota fire is enough to cause some pre assualt wounds. 120 shots or so 1 to 2 failures if you are lucky between 18 inch shot and overwatch and then power klaw finishes cause the DK can't kill your nob if he isn't closest.

enooNaMI wrote:
Use tons of Lootas and snap shot the thing to death by running and gunning. If he has only two Dreadknights left then there is no way you can lose on kill points or objectives. Troll around until the game ends.

That or you get the Greenskins Space Marines Chapter to fight with you.

*Face palm* I'm not sure if you are an actual ork player but using lootas in that fashion is nearly worthless, i know everyone says Snap fire isn't that bad for orks, while that is true it really doesn't mean you want to lower your accuracy any more than you need to. if you want something that peppers the enemy with speed and lots of shots you should either consider buggies or just get a dakka jet, those work wonders for me like highly accurate loota squads that pin, have a single S point less and a shorter range whichyou make up for in mobility. in short, don't make lootas walk it's a sign you need to revise your tactics or the match is that close neither should be happening.

Vineheart01 wrote:I recently got some Gretchin primarily for my ADL quad gun, but when i read what the runtherder did i think i found something to deal with dreadknights.

Grabba sticks.

30 Gretchin, 3 Runtherders all charge at a dreadknight. The rules ONLY say i cannot lower his attacks to less than 1, and it does not say it doesnt happen every turn. 30 Gretchin to go through one by one...he goin nowhere muhahaha

Considering gretchin cannot even hurt a DK and you can only have a max of 3 grabbas that would have to be within b2b of the enemy this is a stalling tactic that is bound to fail and not be worth the investment IMO. Gretchin aren't fearless, only 3 models can attack the delayed DK and they hit on 4 wound on 6 and then even worse he still keeps his 2+ save... so guess what happens? DK isn't hurt, smashes 1 model you fail morale have squigs gobble up more gretchin and re-roll only to probably still fail then get swept and wonder why that was a smart move opposed to 30 shoota boyz and losing only 3 on average a round.

This is to the original OP, your main weakness in my opinion was you took too many toyz before the boyz and Ork motto is "Boyz before Toyz!". you need a butt ton of fearless models that are decent in close combat with an exhausting amount of firepower that discourages all enemies from apporaching other than the wraithguard or dreadnoughts. Trukk boyz are good for getting to the enemy but very bad for sustianed attack which in this edition really needs to happen against the grey knights in order to win they aren't a flood me with wounds and watch me fire army consider yourself lucky to have not faced paladins which can be even worse for you sir. My suggestion is you had a solid list but you scrap the koptas for a Dakka jet, drop a SAG mek and nob bikers for a wartruk, mega nobz and mega boss (you will save points from this exchange) and lastly you convert those trukk boyz into some objective holding foot sloggers and with the points left over grab yourself a Big gunz krew for your kannons which are longer range and about the same BS making it a 1 to 1 exchange for S:8 ap:3

The gretchin idea is nothing but a stall, yes, and where does it say base contact? All i find is a description of "Arms reach" which tells me that if hes able to attack (2inches from model in base contact, btw) he can do it.
The purpose would be to just go HI HOW YOU and ignore it from then out.

Anyway im working on the lack of boyz issue. I was working on a biker boss but debating on either painting him up (since hes built just not painted) or building more boyz. Right now i only got 4squads of 12painted shooty boyz. I intend to make a 5th and then beef the squads up to 30strong (theyre color coded) for in case im not running trukks. Which, against Grey Knights, i dont think i ever will again due to this damn dreadknight.

EDIT: I have a ton of boyz btw theyre just unassembled since i have this thing against building unpainted models. The biker boss was an exception obviously since hes a conversion using plasticard n such.

The Dreadknight is a character and can therefore challenge the PK Nob.

Why waste the points trying to kill the dreadknight? If you throw a 30 strong shoota boy squad at the Dreadknight, they can tarpit it until the end of the game, with neither unit dying. A tie is a better result than potentially losing a Power Klaw Nob, or spending too much on a tarpit.

I was suggesting a tarpit - there are better ways to kill a Dreadknight, I suspect, than a single hidden Power Klaw. And if there's nothing in the Codex that can, which I'm beginning to suspect, well - all the more reason to tarpit the damn thing and forget about it.

I mean - there has been to little stress on the fact that in this edition, we have the best damn tarpit unit in the game. The best. Around. Nothing's ever gonna keep it down.

lootas are probably your best bet at taking them out. You might have luck using flashgitz and I do mean luck with their random ap, but their also a huge points sink.

I know Ghazzy would eat them for breakfast with prophet of the waaagh, maybe you could try that.

 TedNugent wrote:
The Dreadknight is a character and can therefore challenge the PK Nob.

Why waste the points trying to kill the dreadknight? If you throw a 30 strong shoota boy squad at the Dreadknight, they can tarpit it until the end of the game, with neither unit dying. A tie is a better result than potentially losing a Power Klaw Nob, or spending too much on a tarpit.

I was suggesting a tarpit - there are better ways to kill a Dreadknight, I suspect, than a single hidden Power Klaw. And if there's nothing in the Codex that can, which I'm beginning to suspect, well - all the more reason to tarpit the damn thing and forget about it.

I mean - there has been to little stress on the fact that in this edition, we have the best damn tarpit unit in the game. The best. Around. Nothing's ever gonna keep it down.

thus the point of keeping him in the back, can't be challenged if you aren't in 2 inches of something that is in base contact. It's pretty easy to avoid a challenge imo

Once you swing, you're in combat, right? Once you're in combat, you can get challenged. How do you avoid that?

i think he means on the charge, keep the nob back so he cant attack or be attacked, thus losing the 4-5 (if he has a slugga or shoota) attacks but avoiding the challenge. On turn 2 of the assault when you get to pile in again on your initiative, then move him in. Unless i am mistaken, challenges can only be made at the start of the conflict not a turn later.

 TedNugent wrote:
Once you swing, you're in combat, right? Once you're in combat, you can get challenged. How do you avoid that?

To be more clear, you can only accept a challenge if you're engaged. If you keep your Nob far back enough, he can't be challenged, but can then move up in his initiative phase to strike.

Anyway, Dreadknights. Challenging has made them tougher, so mobbing them isn't an immediate solution as it was in 5th.

You have a few units that will help. Lootas can help force those rolls of 1 with a high quantity of high strength shots, but it's attrition over time. Zzap Guns can work well (4+ to hit on Big Guns, toughness 7 grot crew), and you also have Kustom Mega Blastas for a str8 ap2 weapon - put them on Kanz.

The SAG is okay, but iffy since it can only put a single wound on the model (unless you roll a double 6 ).

Just remember that if you DO put any high strength ap2 weapons on the table, your opponent may move in to nullify them quickly!

Maybe I have been lucky with the meganobs but they are what I throw at em I plan on losing 2 or 3 out of a 5 man squad when I do. I do shoot at them before hand but I don't send everything at them either. I try to run a all comers list and I try to keep my boys down to 18, 19 or 20 man size to fit in BW transports with an IC not just to keep them safe but to keep the game flowing at a good pace. Sometimes I charge the meganobs as I know thats the unit my opponent is going to charge on his charge anyways other times I just go for it. So with the all comers list they usually wind up as my best choice, Half the time I find the GK players spends way to many points on a death star unit on foot that I just avoid while I kill the rest of the army the other half the time the games are pretty good.

Meganobs... aren't actually that bad an idea.

If the DK smashes, you'll lose at most two. If the DK doesn't smash, you'll lose one on average.

So a mob of four or five would certainly threaten any single DK.

If BOTH of the DKs assault the Meganobs though, that's a different story.

How about having a large mob of Boyz with a PK Nob and a PK Warboss charge in. The Dreadknight would most probably issue a challenge, which you would accept. With your Nob. This leaves your Warboss free to attack. He can have 6 Attacks when charging which would hit on 4s, I think, and wound (and penetrate his armour) on 2s. That's likely to be 3 Wounds on the Dreadknight. Even if you fail to kill him, your Warboss Cybork Body may save him if you're lucky and then, you've still got 30 Boyz holding him up anyway.

Another alternative is a PK Biker Boss with Cybork and FNP from a Nob Squad. He won't be ID'd because he's T6, and has a reasonable chance of shrugging of wounds as well with his two 5++ saves. Then you can smack back with your PK attacks. I don't really know the Dreadknight rules though, so I may be missing something crucial here, though I think the first option's better anyway.

 The Shadow wrote:
How about having a large mob of Boyz with a PK Nob and a PK Warboss charge in. The Dreadknight would most probably issue a challenge, which you would accept. With your Nob. This leaves your Warboss free to attack.

If your nob accepts the challenge, then the warboss can't hit the DK.
You should actually decline the challenge, your opponent will probably take out your WBoss. So you are left with the nob to hit .
Just make sure that your WBoss join the unit before charging. Otherwise the DK can still put the hit on the boss.

By the way the DK use force weapon, so no matter the toughness he will ID your WBoss , he doesn't need smash.

 TedNugent wrote:
To be honest, I'd just throw a 30 strong Shoota Boy squad at it and just tarpit it before it kills anything valuable. It can only kill a maximum of 4 Boyz per turn, and they're Fearless until they hit 10 models.

This is how I deal with badasses. 6th edition boyz are the fething cheese man. "Oh looky there, something that will most definitely kick my ass and Ill regret not dealing with it.......BOOOOOOOYZ!!!!!!!!" Not to mention at T6, boyz will actually whittle that bastard down, Ive done that MANY times against Nids. Nothing more hilarious to me, then the look on someones face when you completely neutralize their HQ killer with boyz, that sometimes get lucky and put wounds through that awesome armor.

A mob of boys will CERTAINLY tie it down - though it will take several turns to actually kill it.

But, tying it down may be as good as killing it, in your case.

TBH it seems like the dakka jet is a viable option. The TL shots and increased from the waagh does't seem that bad vs the DK.

Your best with ground troops is to tarpit the DK with boys and hope your nobz can do dmg.

I dont think so. Even on the WAAAGH! lets say you score all 18 shots, youll lose half those just wounding it. so 9 wounds vs a 2+ save, you might wound it twice. Id rather pour those shots into something else against a GK force. Boyz. Thats what Id use

Do as Shadow suggested, but don't accept with the Nob, decline with him, this means the Nob will not get to attack but leaves the WB open to attack.

 Kharrak wrote:
Meganobs... aren't actually that bad an idea.

If the DK smashes, you'll lose at most two. If the DK doesn't smash, you'll lose one on average.

So a mob of four or five would certainly threaten any single DK.

If BOTH of the DKs assault the Meganobs though, that's a different story.

Nope.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570043a_Grey_Knights_v1.1.pdf

Dreadknights are already Strength 10 because they have Power Fists. By some apparent attempt at making them seem more attractive to GK players, the FAQ has retconned their rules so that if they buy that cheap sword upgrade, they get 4 Strength 10 attacks with rerolls to hit AND to wound. They way, way overdid the upgrade with this FAQ, but suffice to say, that means this is the equation you're looking at, assuming YOU get the charge against a Dreadknight:



3.4 instant kill wounds.

And even if it was strength 6 with rerolls to hit and wound (it isn't), the Dreadknight is still using a Force Weapon, which means that every wound has a 3/4 or so chance to instant kill anyway.

Using Meganobz is a surefire way to lose a lot of points before even getting to strike against a Dreadknight.

Played against GY with my orks yesterday my 10 lootas got it down to one wound with 30 shots and a group of 20 shoota boyz finished it by round two before it could reach into CC. Quanity kills it!

phatonic wrote:
Played against GY with my orks yesterday my 10 lootas got it down to one wound with 30 shots and a group of 20 shoota boyz finished it by round two before it could reach into CC. Quanity kills it!

Correct me if i'm wrong but that seems extremely lucky.

I was lucky, and i had nightfighting on my side the game was scouring so he had his scoring units taking some objectives thus they stayed back while i charged forward with my footsloggin shooty list


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And when you get 13 wounds he would most likely toss a few ones

Lootas and dakkajets fall under the "stupid luck" category. I think the mob of boyz would be better since they get 2 attacks every turn (3 if sluggas) and 6s arent that hard to get when rolling 30+ dice.

I would much rather aim my lootas at transports or a sniper, which i did in this game i mentioned in the OP. His transports didnt move lol.

Alternatively i feel like dakkajets are pretty meh unless facing another plane. I dont own one so ive only proxied it, but every time ive fielded it my 5man loota squad outshines it every time unless theres another plane to deal with.
That being said, i am getting one and always fielding at least one for AA support lol. If no air, then hello infantry!

As for all the people suggesting i throw 3-4 big hits at it, dont forget these things have a big invul save as well (4+ i think it was, this game was awhile ago now). Majority of the attacks that i had that ignored his armor got invulned anyway. Which this was only klaws but still, damn invul save.

For clearing away DKs would the SAG guns not work? I would think that their potential for greatness could really make it worth it, not to mention that they can be pretty accurate since they only worry about a scatter that more often than not has no worries.

I think what everyone has suggested, for the most part, could be valid. Some games you have the opportunity to spend the first two turns shooting DK, like if they have a foot deathstar that you can kite, sometimes its more important to use lootas to blow up transports, and its better to tar pit the DKs, either way I think one thing you should look into is the list your running. If your like myself what you own limits your pontential lists but I think at 1500 points you could run a better list to fight GKs. At 1500 points are the 4 nob bikers without a PB worth it? Also I think you should add more lootas and cut the koptas. Trukk boyz are fun and can be effective but maybe running larger fearless units could be better against GKs. Also someone mentioned this before but Ghazzy, while expensive, does a lot of damage against GKs. On his waagggh turn he can kill DKs and without it he can take on any of their infantry, except paladins, because force weapons are only ap3 and he is immune to instadeath. Plus if they are running a paladin deathstar they probably cant afford two DKs, and Ghazzy can call a waaagh and insta splat those losers instead. Maybe I just love Ghazzy too much and he is way to expensive but it is always fun to call a waaagh and watch him eat face.

 Kharrak wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
Once you swing, you're in combat, right? Once you're in combat, you can get challenged. How do you avoid that?

To be more clear, you can only accept a challenge if you're engaged. If you keep your Nob far back enough, he can't be challenged, but can then move up in his initiative phase to strike.

The moment the unit is in combat, any character in that unit may be challenged no matter how far back he may be. He can be out of the 2 inch zone needed to attack but he can still be challenged as long as he is in the unit in combat. That's why the rules say that once a challenge is accepted you switch the challengers with models that are in base cntact with each other. This was made to represent the Unit Champions shouting at each other and then wadding through their men to engage in a 1 on 1 melee.


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Vineheart01 wrote:
Lootas and dakkajets fall under the "stupid luck" category. I think the mob of boyz would be better since they get 2 attacks every turn (3 if sluggas) and 6s arent that hard to get when rolling 30+ dice.

I would much rather aim my lootas at transports or a sniper, which i did in this game i mentioned in the OP. His transports didnt move lol.

Alternatively i feel like dakkajets are pretty meh unless facing another plane. I dont own one so ive only proxied it, but every time ive fielded it my 5man loota squad outshines it every time unless theres another plane to deal with.
That being said, i am getting one and always fielding at least one for AA support lol. If no air, then hello infantry!

As for all the people suggesting i throw 3-4 big hits at it, dont forget these things have a big invul save as well (4+ i think it was, this game was awhile ago now). Majority of the attacks that i had that ignored his armor got invulned anyway. Which this was only klaws but still, damn invul save.

The so called "stupid luck" is the forte of the ork armies. If you aren't relying and believing that you can make those dice rolls then your WAAAGH!!! isn't strong enough. There is no space for doubt in an ork because he's filled with too much awesome sauce.

 Kharrak wrote:

To be more clear, you can only accept a challenge if you're engaged. If you keep your Nob far back enough, he can't be challenged, but can then move up in his initiative phase to strike.

Anyway, Dreadknights. Challenging has made them tougher, so mobbing them isn't an immediate solution as it was in 5th.

And once you move up in your initiative phase - what then? Can't you be challenged in the next turn of combat?

TedNugent wrote:

 Kharrak wrote:

To be more clear, you can only accept a challenge if you're engaged. If you keep your Nob far back enough, he can't be challenged, but can then move up in his initiative phase to strike.

Anyway, Dreadknights. Challenging has made them tougher, so mobbing them isn't an immediate solution as it was in 5th.

And once you move up in your initiative phase - what then? Can't you be challenged in the next turn of combat?

enooNaMI wrote:
The moment the unit is in combat, any character in that unit may be challenged no matter how far back he may be. He can be out of the 2 inch zone needed to attack but he can still be challenged as long as he is in the unit in combat. That's why the rules say that once a challenge is accepted you switch the challengers with models that are in base contact with each other. This was made to represent the Unit Champions shouting at each other and then wadding through their men to engage in a 1 on 1 melee.

I posted this right before you posted. Any character model that is included in a unit in an Assault can be challenged no matter how far they are and even if they only get in 2 inches once they pile in during their initiative phase. It is up to the challenged player to choose whichever character model in his unit will accept the challenge. It doesn't have to be the guy who was challenged unless he's the only character there.

Its not good to issue challenges against an all character unit as they'll just keep accepting, making the DK kill only one model per turn as he can only wound and be wounded by the opponent he faces in the challenge..

Your sergeant can only be challenged if he is currently engaged and can strike blows in the combat. Meaning that if your sergeant is more than 2" away from a model in base to base with the enemy, he can't be challenged. Last line of Accepting a Challenge in pg 64.

@Tednugent. Yup. Then he gets challenged. But at very least he gets one round to get his attacks in and able to spread the damage, which is obviously better than no rounds at all.

Is 1 round of strikes worth the 45 points you spend on it?

 TedNugent wrote:
Is 1 round of strikes worth the 45 points you spend on it?

Well, one must consider that I'm not getting the PK nob just for challenges. Against your general sergeants, the Nob won't have a hard time for the larger part. Additionally, it helps against walkers and vehicles, as well as mopping up units without sergeants.

Also, on your note about the DKs. Huh. Did NOT know that. So, yeah, Meganobs are not a useful tool against them >_>

What? Orks can beat GK??
Imopssible, I am yet to see one single ork army over here that has NOT been tabled by gks.

So many things in this thread are just wrong. I don't know why a DK would use smash vs anything other than a vehicle because it has 4 attacks at str10, AP2 always. When you decline a challenge the opponnent says who doesn't fight, not you. You only get to pick who accepts or who challenges if the honors have been past to you or it is your turn. It's all in the rulebooks and FAQs people. Lets not give bad advice based on terrible rule reading. For orks to take down a DK a nobz on bike squad makes fast work of them if you don't mind losing 2 or 3 of them.

^two or three nob bikers is about 100-200 points right there, depending on which you lose and what they had. I'd just say boyz again. But i disagree with bigmek wurrzog on the grots trick. you don't get the sucker down to one attack a turn, just because one of them will generally sit out to avoid being challenged. but once he's down to two attacks, he's only munching two a turn, and with thirty grotz, you only take a moral check after losing 8 grots (30 grots plus the three runtherds. total 33, 25% rounding down is 8) and with the dk killing two a turn, it's taking four turns just to have them test on moral, in which you can let the squig hound eat most of the remaining ones and delay for another turn or two. It's pretty easy to slog him up for the whole game for just 100 points or so (forgot how much runtherds cost) as opposed to the 220 you're spending on the 30 mob of boyz, minimum. Much better throw away unit.

Just have to make sure he doesn't blow out the grotz before they get there. Of course, if they do, then they're still shooting grots, and if they got creamed by his core army while shooting everything at it, then if they waste fire on grotz, then you'll just be able to dedicate more to shoot his dk.

The 25% rule is for shooting casualties. In CC you follow a different rule I am afraid.

FUUUUU-

only just remembered that. dang.

Gretchin only get a reroll of Leadership 7, and it costs them 2 models per reroll. That's compared to Ork Boyz which are Fearless when >10 models.

It's situations like that that make me use KMB Killa Kans still, even though they are pretty bad compared to 5th.

DrDuckman wrote:
It's situations like that that make me use KMB Killa Kans still, even though they are pretty bad compared to 5th.

1/6 chance at a glance when you have only 2 HP....yowch!

But yeah, why not? There's not really anything better suited to taking out T6 with a 2+ armor save. But I'm not sure it's worth building that unit just to deal with Dreadknights when they're still comparatively rare - and probably will stay that way given the wide (and possibly expanding) use of Plasma and Melta.

So, essentially, don't get stuck in with it.

So fire Zzap Guns and Kustom Mega Blastas at it.

In regards to Get's Hot for vehicles - you don't immediately suffer a glance on a 1. When you roll a 1 on your to-hit, you roll another dice. On a 1,2,3, you suffer the glance. On a 4+, you're fine.

So you have an 8.35% chance of suffering that glance, rather than a 16.7% chance. Or, in other words, a 1/12 chance, rather than a 1/6 chance ;P

 Pyriel- wrote:
What? Orks can beat GK??
Imopssible, I am yet to see one single ork army over here that has NOT been tabled by gks.

This is not true. Although GKs are tough for some ork lists, greenskins are capable of taking down GKs. I have had a good amount of success with my shooty ork and allies list against GK. As always the main advatage we have is our ability to bring too many models to the table, but I can see how the OP would be complaining about going against 2 DKs, those stupid flamers eat lootas all day, it sucks. Allies can help bring that bad boy down, and if they are footslogging a death star accross the map, skirt around it and spend some turns firing your lootas and dakkajets into it, then maybe afterwards throw a mob of boyz and in two turns hopefully kill it or just have it tied up, either way without at reliable ap 2 shooting, buckets of dice, lots of PKs (nob bikers), or a huge mob of boys is your way to go.

This is not true. Although GKs are tough for some ork lists, greenskins are capable of taking down GKs. I have had a good amount of success with my shooty ork and allies list against GK. As always the main advatage we have is our ability to bring too many models to the table, but I can see how the OP would be complaining about going against 2 DKs, those stupid flamers eat lootas all day, it sucks. Allies can help bring that bad boy down, and if they are footslogging a death star accross the map, skirt around it and spend some turns firing your lootas and dakkajets into it, then maybe afterwards throw a mob of boyz and in two turns hopefully kill it or just have it tied up, either way without at reliable ap 2 shooting, buckets of dice, lots of PKs (nob bikers), or a huge mob of boys is your way to go.

Well, yes and no.
Orks CAN beat GK...I have read about this miraculous phenomena online where apparently some people are such good or bad players and suffer such good or bad luck that this indeed does occur but in real life...never.

The last time I had an argument about this I promptly proved my point by arranging a test game where I used an 1850p ork army, a fairly cheesy one and my opponent was given an GK army with no dreadknights and no incinerators in it.

To add insult to the whole thing my GK opponent was a friend of mine who had NEVER played one single game of 40k. He knew absolutelly nothing of the game, its rules nor mechanics, this was the first game in his life and he was simply given hints and tips and was told the rules and mechanics by another 40k player in real time as we played.

...I and my orks were tabled to the last model on turn 5. As for his wiped losses he had lost only one full squad.



Orks are plentiful here and I am yet to see one single game where orks actually managed to win over the GKs, I once saw a draw but that is it.
Of all my games where I use my own GK army I am yet to experience any other ending then either tabling or almost tabling the orks and I have met everything from trukk rushes, to loota masses to shock attack gun pies to foot hordes to kan walls to the boring old bikenobs and even faced lists that are copies of what Dash used in his tournaments. The only ork army that I am yet to face and table is a meganob army.
Facing orks with GK is just as exciting as stealing candy from a tied up baby.

Orks vs GK is the single most unbalanced matchup in the entire game of 40k and by now I have even proved that a total GK noob can table an experienced ork player simply by not making any mistakes.

You have options, They are in your codex...

Deffrolla = D6 Str10 Hits.... i believe that means you wound on a 2+?
Zzap Guns= 2D6 Str potential for 2+ to wound here
Deffguns= D3 shots at Str7 3+ to wound.
Kanz= KMB Str 8 ap 2= ez answer

I dont play orks, only against them, I also Dont own the Ork Dex, but thats what i came up with while at work, off the top of my head...

just saying.

If it were me... Id Take all My wagons and ram the sh!t outta that DK with my Rolla... Worst case scenario is he has to deal with whats inside after.

 Pyriel- wrote:

This is not true. Although GKs are tough for some ork lists, greenskins are capable of taking down GKs. I have had a good amount of success with my shooty ork and allies list against GK. As always the main advatage we have is our ability to bring too many models to the table, but I can see how the OP would be complaining about going against 2 DKs, those stupid flamers eat lootas all day, it sucks. Allies can help bring that bad boy down, and if they are footslogging a death star accross the map, skirt around it and spend some turns firing your lootas and dakkajets into it, then maybe afterwards throw a mob of boyz and in two turns hopefully kill it or just have it tied up, either way without at reliable ap 2 shooting, buckets of dice, lots of PKs (nob bikers), or a huge mob of boys is your way to go.

Well, yes and no.
Orks CAN beat GK...I have read about this miraculous phenomena online where apparently some people are such good or bad players and suffer such good or bad luck that this indeed does occur but in real life...never.

The last time I had an argument about this I promptly proved my point by arranging a test game where I used an 1850p ork army, a fairly cheesy one and my opponent was given an GK army with no dreadknights and no incinerators in it.

To add insult to the whole thing my GK opponent was a friend of mine who had NEVER played one single game of 40k. He knew absolutelly nothing of the game, its rules nor mechanics, this was the first game in his life and he was simply given hints and tips and was told the rules and mechanics by another 40k player in real time as we played.

...I and my orks were tabled to the last model on turn 5. As for his wiped losses he had lost only one full squad.



Orks are plentiful here and I am yet to see one single game where orks actually managed to win over the GKs, I once saw a draw but that is it.
Of all my games where I use my own GK army I am yet to experience any other ending then either tabling or almost tabling the orks and I have met everything from trukk rushes, to loota masses to shock attack gun pies to foot hordes to kan walls to the boring old bikenobs and even faced lists that are copies of what Dash used in his tournaments. The only ork army that I am yet to face and table is a meganob army.
Facing orks with GK is just as exciting as stealing candy from a tied up baby.

Orks vs GK is the single most unbalanced matchup in the entire game of 40k and by now I have even proved that a total GK noob can table an experienced ork player simply by not making any mistakes.

Grey Knights are chumps, you have to just avoid close combat with anyone using psycho nades. pretty much the main rule of thumb is "don't be stupid even orks have limits and Grey Knights ascend beyond those limits in CC not not so much in shooting less you see psylincers or purifiers. The reason you think it isn't going to happen is I imagine you don't know how to dismantle the enemy's codex and went about the game like normal (a big mistake regardless of who/what you play) purifiers and nades make ork CC cry. Instant kills makes us cry but you know how to stop these things? Dakka jets, lootas, kannons/big gunz and boom gunz. when the enemy is finally on you just need to hope you charge him before vice versa happens.

 Kharrak wrote:
Your sergeant can only be challenged if he is currently engaged and can strike blows in the combat. Meaning that if your sergeant is more than 2" away from a model in base to base with the enemy, he can't be challenged. Last line of Accepting a Challenge in pg 64.

@Tednugent. Yup. Then he gets challenged. But at very least he gets one round to get his attacks in and able to spread the damage, which is obviously better than no rounds at all.

A model is considered engaged if: during its Initiative phase it is able to strike blows. Last line of page 23.

If the model can pile in and strike blows during its initiative then it is engaged. So a model that is out of the 2 inch combat range but can pile in and reach it is still considered engaged.

Luck is not needed in the Ork Codex, it IS THE ORK CODEX. If you're rolling badly and your units aren't making miraculous rolls then the only thing that's wrong is that your WAAAGH!!! isn't strong enough.

I know they are points heavy, but flash gits have a 50/50 chance of shooting at ap2 and 1/3 chance of ap1
There goes the 2+ saves.

 enooNaMI wrote:
A model is considered engaged if: during its Initiative phase it is able to strike blows. Last line of page 23.

If the model can pile in and strike blows during its initiative then it is engaged. So a model that is out of the 2 inch combat range but can pile in and reach it is still considered engaged.

Wait, I think you're confused.

Challenges are issued at the start of combat, before consolidation moves are made. It is at this point that you check to see who is within that 2" bubble. Your perception starts throwing stones in a china store house. This is prudent since (a) there may simply be too many bodies to allow a model to be able to pile in regardless, and (b) casualties taken later in that combat may make other models engaged that otherwise wouldn't be able to. Since you can't foresee how many casualties there are, you can't automatically assume that characters WILL or WILL NOT be able to pile in.

Hell, just look at the example on the very page you cited. The guardians are not considered engaged, even though they would be able to consolidate into combat during their initiative phase.

So, basically, if at the start of an assault your sergeant is outside of that 2" bubble, he can't be challenged. If he can then consolidate to be within that 2" bubble, he can then strike blows.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CYBORK wrote:
I know they are points heavy, but flash gits have a 50/50 chance of shooting at ap2 and 1/3 chance of ap1
There goes the 2+ saves.

Flashgits have a 33% change of getting ap2. They also have a 33% change of getting ap5. Which wouldn't help you against any 3+ and 2+ models.

You COULD increase that ap2 chance to 50%, but then you're (a) spending more points, and (b) giving them Get's Hot.

CYBORK wrote:
I know they are points heavy, but flash gits have a 50/50 chance of shooting at ap2 and 1/3 chance of ap1
There goes the 2+ saves.

The problem there is, with that upgrade, you end up rolling ones, and youve only a 4+ save to save them. Thats a LOT of points to kill off on your own

Instant kills makes us cry but you know how to stop these things? Dakka jets, lootas, kannons/big gunz and boom gunz. when the enemy is finally on you just need to hope you charge him before vice versa happens.

And I have faced all those units and their iterations as well as used them myself. Pretty much every single thing in the GK codex is basically made to be anti ork.
It is a common misconception that purifyers are the one true ork killer in the gk codex, purifyers are very sensitive to lootas as they rely on transportation and almost the worst HQ in the game and lootas eat transports for breakfast.
Every single model carries a stormbolter, often at S5 and there are S7 cannons baked in everywhere. I am yet to feel the need to have a purifyer to handle the horde/light transport aspect of any ork army.

I pretty much never use purifyers in general and when playing against orks I have never, ever used purifyers and I still get very surprised if I havent tabled the ork army, however it might look with dakka jets or no dakka jets, by the end of the game.

Sad but the reality is this that the ork codex simply isnt on pair with the GK and needs to be remade.

if you wanna get fluffy flash gits with -1 AP and +1S would have a 50/50 chance to ignore its armor and wound on a 4+

but deffidently not cost effective

 Pyriel- wrote:

Instant kills makes us cry but you know how to stop these things? Dakka jets, lootas, kannons/big gunz and boom gunz. when the enemy is finally on you just need to hope you charge him before vice versa happens.

And I have faced all those units and their iterations as well as used them myself. Pretty much every single thing in the GK codex is basically made to be anti ork.
It is a common misconception that purifyers are the one true ork killer in the gk codex, purifyers are very sensitive to lootas as they rely on transportation and almost the worst HQ in the game and lootas eat transports for breakfast.
Every single model carries a stormbolter, often at S5 and there are S7 cannons baked in everywhere. I am yet to feel the need to have a purifyer to handle the horde/light transport aspect of any ork army.

I pretty much never use purifyers in general and when playing against orks I have never, ever used purifyers and I still get very surprised if I havent tabled the ork army, however it might look with dakka jets or no dakka jets, by the end of the game.

Sad but the reality is this that the ork codex simply isnt on pair with the GK and needs to be remade.

Yes the ork codex is in need of an update, this time with trolls as MC's and gatling gunz that are heavy 20 just a few things on my wishlist...

Anyways back to the point, yes gk are deffinately a tough match-up for orks, but not impossible to beat. I have had success against my friends gk's with orks (and he was using purifiers too) just dont give up on the greenskins and you will find a way

So how did you do it?

And imo, purifyers suck, there are much better things.

 Pyriel- wrote:
So how did you do it?

And imo, purifyers suck, there are much better things.

I do it frequently. Battlewagons, nob bikers, shoota boyz, lootaz.

When I go GK I feel the most resistance if the orks have massed lootas and two shokk attack guns, those are really dangerous with good range.
Nob bikers tend to be a waste against me due to all the hammerhand/forceweapon combos.

I play both GK and orks by the way.

So far my record vs grey knights is 5 and 2 at local tourneys. I generally run either 2 10 man loota squads or 3 smaller, 2 battlewagons one or two dakkajets, a wierdboy and mega armored war boss, 2 or 3 squads of shoota boys that will fit in the wagons with either boss, 5 mega nobs with a truk, and lately 10 gretchin and aegis defense line with a quad gun. List varies sometimes only 2 squads of boys sometimes no quad gun just depends on point limit. Would like to add some big guns to the mix as well maybe xmas will bring some.
If I see 10 paladins I try to lure him to deepstrike in a certain area where ya they will kill a unit when they come in but then they are going to be marching around turn after turn. I will say that I have not faced 2 DK's at once so that might change things but since it's tourneys both the GK player and I have to be ready to face all comers maybe that is making a big difference for some players if the GK is tailoring for Orks they might get a leg up. The hardest games vs GK I have fought so far are the ones that spend less points on big units like paladins and just put more feet on the ground.

 Pyriel- wrote:
So how did you do it?

And imo, purifyers suck, there are much better things.

There is almost nothing in the codex better than Purifiers. They punch out 16 S7 rending shots, and 12 S4 shots at only 280 points. Not only that, but they hold their own in combat as well.

I don't understand how anyone could think they suck.

There is almost nothing in the codex better than Purifiers. They punch out 16 S7 rending shots, and 12 S4 shots at only 280 points. Not only that, but they hold their own in combat as well.

I don't understand how anyone could think they suck.

Strikers are better in most cases.

Purifyers:
They require fragile transports in order to work...which ups their cost and can be blown up easily.

They cannot deepstrike.

They die just as easy as the cheaper strikers.

They cannot ward other units or themselves from deepstriking enemies.

They require an additional 150p completely wasted in the form of the worst HQ in the game.

They almost automatically give the opponent first blood as well as slay the warlord points (see above).

And as someone already pointed out...they are a SHOOTY unit that happens to be ok in CC, they are pretty much never to be used as some sort of melee chasing unit but stand and shoot.


Strikers when played as they should, are superior on the tabletop.
You get less psycannons but more and cheaper casualty soakers, far more S5 stormbolters that also cost less per stormbolter and you get more booth on the ground plus screw up the opponents deepstriking.


The purifyer gimmick was ok back when rhinos werent crappy deathtraps (well, they were but not as bad as they are now) and ran in a MSU type of list.
They are like trying to run a sternguard army although the SM get a far better HQ and sternguards are also so much better then normal tacs but...that idea too suck.

 Pyriel- wrote:

There is almost nothing in the codex better than Purifiers. They punch out 16 S7 rending shots, and 12 S4 shots at only 280 points. Not only that, but they hold their own in combat as well.

I don't understand how anyone could think they suck.

Strikers are better in most cases.

Purifyers:
They require fragile transports in order to work...which ups their cost and can be blown up easily.

They cannot deepstrike.

They die just as easy as the cheaper strikers.

They cannot ward other units or themselves from deepstriking enemies.

They require an additional 150p completely wasted in the form of the worst HQ in the game.

They almost automatically give the opponent first blood as well as slay the warlord points (see above).

And as someone already pointed out...they are a SHOOTY unit that happens to be ok in CC, they are pretty much never to be used as some sort of melee chasing unit but stand and shoot.


Strikers when played as they should, are superior on the tabletop.
You get less psycannons but more and cheaper casualty soakers, far more S5 stormbolters that also cost less per stormbolter and you get more booth on the ground plus screw up the opponents deepstriking.


The purifyer gimmick was ok back when rhinos werent crappy deathtraps (well, they were but not as bad as they are now) and ran in a MSU type of list.
They are like trying to run a sternguard army although the SM get a far better HQ and sternguards are also so much better then normal tacs but...that idea too suck.

But ten Strikers are only 40 points less, by the time you've bought Psybolts. I can buy the Purifiers for 40 more points per squad, and I get 8 more Psycannon shots, 2A, and Cleansing Flame. You certainly don't need a Rhino to make them work as you can still walk forward 6" a turn and either fire all your snapshots at any fliers that happen to be on the table, or still fire your Psycannons in Assault mode. Sure, Crowe sucks but he's only necessary for a spam army and doesn't preclude you taking another HQ if you want.

The Strikers may be 40 points cheaper, but if anything gets into combat with them they're toast, and they just can't compete with the volume of fire Purifiers can put out. Yes, they're a shooting unit that happens to be ok in combat, but they're a really good shooting unit. Even without Crowe, taking a Grandmaster instead you can scout them up the board, and add a cheap Inquisitor with Prescience for extra face-melting goodness. There's simply no comparison to Strike Squads at all. They'll never be able to do the same job.

We'll just have to disagree.
its never efective to run short ranged super expensive foot models that die just as easy as their cheaper counterparts and that need 2 hqs to even start working properly.
A 200P GM hq just to make them walk 6' forward...listen to yourself lol

Are strikers the ones that can zip around the battlefield? I really need to read the GK dex this weekend again


If so, I thought about making a cool looking GK army one day, that had those lot that can move like jump troops and shunt, along with a couple Dreadknights with the same option. I figured Id go fast and hard and win, or fast and hard and die

Nope, those are interceptors, not worth taking since they are almost as overpriced as jumppack vanguards.

Strike squads are the cheap and hard shooting bread and butter of the GK army. They restrict enemy deepstrike, are better in melee then normal marines and are pretty much the only thing worth giving S5 stormbolters.
People keep talking about psycannons but S5 stormbolters if massed are very good at taking out transports and can pick hullpoints of light fliers.

 Pyriel- wrote:
We'll just have to disagree.
its never efective to run short ranged super expensive foot models that die just as easy as their cheaper counterparts and that need 2 hqs to even start working properly.

Truth to be told, you should be using either Coteaz and/or Prescience inquisitors in most strike lists too. 2 sources of Prescience is just too good to pass.

 Pyriel- wrote:
A 200P GM hq just to make them walk 6' forward...listen to yourself lol

You should listen to yourself. Kaldor didn't say anything like that, and you know it. Are you seriously arguing that GK are only usable if meched up? Because that is basis of your 'argument' in this sentence.

Footslogging is completely viable tactic in 6e, exactly as Kaldor pointed out. And GM is only 175 points, not 200.

Now, I do agree that because of Crowe tax, Strike lists are currently better against most lists. But that Purifier squad does pack a lot more firepower than Strike squad does, and unlike Strikes is actually pretty good in cc.

Footslogging is completely viable tactic in 6e, exactly as Kaldor pointed out. And GM is only 175 points, not 200.

Only if range isnt an issue. With GKs range is.

I´d like to see the footslogging purifyer army facing of the IG parking lot or DE ranged boat spam without seriously compromising the purifyer-foot theme..

And GM is only 175 points, not 200.

Semantics.
Add some grenades etc and you´ll tangent the 200p line with ease.

My comment was to highlite the crappiness of purifyers needing a GM in order to be able to reach things...and those werent even my words.

dakka jet great plan..gazgull will rip um a new one for about the same points cost if the dread knight is loaded our right

Grey Knights should stick to fighting Chaos and fooling around under the sheets with the Sisters of Battle (not that the GK's still have genitalia). I don't really have a problem with GK, but I have a problem about Draigo's fluff but that's a story for another day and thread.

@topic
Even with armour and firepower, a foot slogging GK purifier unit wont last long once drowned in a flood of killy shots from a horde of lootas or flash gitz. Considering that CC and cleansing flame is what makes GKs so great, why bother with walking?

Exactly, cleansing flame is mostly a defensive power, no sane player will assault a CF model with a horde and thus we go back one step to the purifyers sucking in that if you want to chase hordes with them in order to CF them you need transports and with transport-assault sucking big time in 6:ed...

On the other hand strikers can DS behind that ork loota squad etc without wading through fire for 2-3 turns in order to reach them.

 Pyriel- wrote:
Exactly, cleansing flame is mostly a defensive power, no sane player will assault a CF model with a horde and thus we go back one step to the purifyers sucking in that if you want to chase hordes with them in order to CF them you need transports and with transport-assault sucking big time in 6:ed...

On the other hand strikers can DS behind that ork loota squad etc without wading through fire for 2-3 turns in order to reach them.

And the Lootas just rush off while raining Snapshots at the Purifiers. At 50% of their normal accuracy.

As a user of the dreadknight, the thing I hate the most is having it tar-pitted for games. It can only kill at most 5 models, 6 on the charge.

One game I played, it got charged by 20 assault marines, including sergeant with power fist, sanguinary priest. Through the use of challenges and some luck the knight killed to entire squad and only lost 2 wounds, however, that was 3.5 turns of the game.

What he is best at is killing the big stuff, like in one turn of combat I killed a squad of thunderwolves etc. Its heaps of the small things that lock him up that is the most annoying.

Diezel wrote:You have options, They are in your codex...

Deffrolla = D6 Str10 Hits.... i believe that means you wound on a 2+?
Zzap Guns= 2D6 Str potential for 2+ to wound here
Deffguns= D3 shots at Str7 3+ to wound.
Kanz= KMB Str 8 ap 2= ez answer

I dont play orks, only against them, I also Dont own the Ork Dex, but thats what i came up with while at work, off the top of my head...

just saying.

If it were me... Id Take all My wagons and ram the sh!t outta that DK with my Rolla... Worst case scenario is he has to deal with whats inside after.

The problem here is:

Dreadknights are Monstrous Creatures, unless i am mistaken only Vehicles and Slow/Purposeful cannot take Death or Glory! actions...and DKs have massive damage and would own AV14 on 4+ (off the top of my head probably better than that) with 4 damn tries. Yes Deffrolla attacks are first, and i think the "additional D6 S10 hits" for DoG actions hits first as well, but unless i roll 6 on both i doubt i'd kill it since Deffrollas have no AP (one of the things people have been complaining about is even 6+ gets their save with deffrolla now).
Zzap guns arent AP2 and only fire once. I'd rather fire that at another vehicle or a boss dude without a 2+ (which is most of them).
Deffguns(lootas) are one of the better options since they have a high enough strength for a good chance to wound after hitting. Bout the same line as a tarpit of boyz since he still gets his 2+ but has to roll a ton of them.
I will never run Kanz in 6th. Too many things pop av12 so quickly, atleast what ive been going against, they'd get 1 round off and get sniped out. Only my BW have been surviving anything because of the AV14 face, my trukks only last past turn 2 if i hid them somewhere.

tuiman wrote:As a user of the dreadknight, the thing I hate the most is having it tar-pitted for games. It can only kill at most 5 models, 6 on the charge.

One game I played, it got charged by 20 assault marines, including sergeant with power fist, sanguinary priest. Through the use of challenges and some luck the knight killed to entire squad and only lost 2 wounds, however, that was 3.5 turns of the game.

What he is best at is killing the big stuff, like in one turn of combat I killed a squad of thunderwolves etc. Its heaps of the small things that lock him up that is the most annoying.

I played against this guy again and i didnt get to tarpit him cuz he saw it coming but i at least made him run around like a little b**** for most the game rather than slicing n dicing my wagons.
Though i think it is the most effective way to do it. This guy likes to take 2 of them, but the rest of his army is pretty meh because of it. My lootas alone dealt with them lol. I dont feel confortable running only a single dakkawagon (lootas + meks + KFF + 4BS + Zzap gun in wagon) because then he can focus fire it with no drawback, and in a 1500pt game i cant take more than 2 30man boyz
I almost beat the runt that time lol. His second DK managed to teleport far enough away from my boyz and rip out one of my wagons. Bad on me for not leaving the boyz near the wagons to begin with.

And the Lootas just rush off while raining Snapshots at the Purifiers. At 50% of their normal accuracy.

I am so scared for running lootas that only cause 3 hits per ten models. If lootas are forced to move then the other player is doing something right.

 tuiman wrote:
As a user of the dreadknight, the thing I hate the most is having it tar-pitted for games. It can only kill at most 5 models, 6 on the charge.

One game I played, it got charged by 20 assault marines, including sergeant with power fist, sanguinary priest. Through the use of challenges and some luck the knight killed to entire squad and only lost 2 wounds, however, that was 3.5 turns of the game.

What he is best at is killing the big stuff, like in one turn of combat I killed a squad of thunderwolves etc. Its heaps of the small things that lock him up that is the most annoying.

So what you're saying is, if I tarpitted your Dreadknight with 30 Boyz with no Nob, the most you would be able to kill per turn is 5 models, or 30 points per turn? Sounds like a plan.

By the way, according to the FAQ, you're actually wrong, the Dreadknight only has 4 attacks with the Sword upgrade, so that's 4 attacks with 5 on the charge, not 5 and 6 on the charge. Go read the FAQ:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570043a_Grey_Knights_v1.1.pdf

ZZap guns are ap 2

 TedNugent wrote:
By the way, according to the FAQ, you're actually wrong, the Dreadknight only has 4 attacks with the Sword upgrade, so that's 4 attacks with 5 on the charge, not 5 and 6 on the charge.

Actually, he is half-right. As MC, DK has Hammer of Wrath and would cause 1 extra hit on charge, so he technically could kill 6 on charge.

And while he is correct about the tar-pitting, his example was extremely poor. I wouldn't ever call 20 assault marines + sanguinary priest a "tarpit" against DK, considering that it's ~450 points worth of models to tie ~250 point DK.

 Pyriel- wrote:
Exactly, cleansing flame is mostly a defensive power, no sane player will assault a CF model with a horde and thus we go back one step to the purifyers sucking in that if you want to chase hordes with them in order to CF them you need transports and with transport-assault sucking big time in 6:ed...

On the other hand strikers can DS behind that ork loota squad etc without wading through fire for 2-3 turns in order to reach them.

the problem with strke squads is that they cant hold their own in cc against hordes, where as purifiers can. I just played a game against my friends GK's where he had 6×10 strike squads which he combat squaded into 12×5 man squads each consisting of a hammer and psycannon, and though the amount of firepower they could dish out was impressive, it couldnt make up for the fact that as soon as I charged him he could barely put a scratch on me and ended up getting tabled by the fourth turn because of it.

The reason purifiers are so good is because they have an answer to pretty much everything in the game. (4 psycannons + force weapons with 2 attacks base + cleansing flame = )

I agree whole heartedly on Purifiers, they are just TOO good. I get GK are supposed to be badasses but I really dont like the direction they went with that unit. Cleansing flame is just too over powered, specially against horde types

the problem with strke squads is that they cant hold their own in cc against hordes, where as purifiers can. I just played a game against my friends GK's where he had 6×10 strike squads which he combat squaded into 12×5 man squads each consisting of a hammer and psycannon, and though the amount of firepower they could dish out was impressive, it couldnt make up for the fact that as soon as I charged him he could barely put a scratch on me and ended up getting tabled by the fourth turn because of it.

Well, naturally as with almost anything jut taking one squad will be bad, you need to have something to stand and act as a counter for the things strikers are bad at.

Next time try using that horde against 2-3 dreadknights with strikers filling up the rest and you´ll see how fun hordes have against that.

Purifyers simlpy have not enough flexibility and need to rely on other things in order to work. There is a reason we never see sternguard based armies doing well.