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DrDuckman wrote:
It's situations like that that make me use KMB Killa Kans still, even though they are pretty bad compared to 5th.

1/6 chance at a glance when you have only 2 HP....yowch!

But yeah, why not? There's not really anything better suited to taking out T6 with a 2+ armor save. But I'm not sure it's worth building that unit just to deal with Dreadknights when they're still comparatively rare - and probably will stay that way given the wide (and possibly expanding) use of Plasma and Melta.

So, essentially, don't get stuck in with it.

So fire Zzap Guns and Kustom Mega Blastas at it.

In regards to Get's Hot for vehicles - you don't immediately suffer a glance on a 1. When you roll a 1 on your to-hit, you roll another dice. On a 1,2,3, you suffer the glance. On a 4+, you're fine.

So you have an 8.35% chance of suffering that glance, rather than a 16.7% chance. Or, in other words, a 1/12 chance, rather than a 1/6 chance ;P

 Pyriel- wrote:
What? Orks can beat GK??
Imopssible, I am yet to see one single ork army over here that has NOT been tabled by gks.

This is not true. Although GKs are tough for some ork lists, greenskins are capable of taking down GKs. I have had a good amount of success with my shooty ork and allies list against GK. As always the main advatage we have is our ability to bring too many models to the table, but I can see how the OP would be complaining about going against 2 DKs, those stupid flamers eat lootas all day, it sucks. Allies can help bring that bad boy down, and if they are footslogging a death star accross the map, skirt around it and spend some turns firing your lootas and dakkajets into it, then maybe afterwards throw a mob of boyz and in two turns hopefully kill it or just have it tied up, either way without at reliable ap 2 shooting, buckets of dice, lots of PKs (nob bikers), or a huge mob of boys is your way to go.

This is not true. Although GKs are tough for some ork lists, greenskins are capable of taking down GKs. I have had a good amount of success with my shooty ork and allies list against GK. As always the main advatage we have is our ability to bring too many models to the table, but I can see how the OP would be complaining about going against 2 DKs, those stupid flamers eat lootas all day, it sucks. Allies can help bring that bad boy down, and if they are footslogging a death star accross the map, skirt around it and spend some turns firing your lootas and dakkajets into it, then maybe afterwards throw a mob of boyz and in two turns hopefully kill it or just have it tied up, either way without at reliable ap 2 shooting, buckets of dice, lots of PKs (nob bikers), or a huge mob of boys is your way to go.

Well, yes and no.
Orks CAN beat GK...I have read about this miraculous phenomena online where apparently some people are such good or bad players and suffer such good or bad luck that this indeed does occur but in real life...never.

The last time I had an argument about this I promptly proved my point by arranging a test game where I used an 1850p ork army, a fairly cheesy one and my opponent was given an GK army with no dreadknights and no incinerators in it.

To add insult to the whole thing my GK opponent was a friend of mine who had NEVER played one single game of 40k. He knew absolutelly nothing of the game, its rules nor mechanics, this was the first game in his life and he was simply given hints and tips and was told the rules and mechanics by another 40k player in real time as we played.

...I and my orks were tabled to the last model on turn 5. As for his wiped losses he had lost only one full squad.



Orks are plentiful here and I am yet to see one single game where orks actually managed to win over the GKs, I once saw a draw but that is it.
Of all my games where I use my own GK army I am yet to experience any other ending then either tabling or almost tabling the orks and I have met everything from trukk rushes, to loota masses to shock attack gun pies to foot hordes to kan walls to the boring old bikenobs and even faced lists that are copies of what Dash used in his tournaments. The only ork army that I am yet to face and table is a meganob army.
Facing orks with GK is just as exciting as stealing candy from a tied up baby.

Orks vs GK is the single most unbalanced matchup in the entire game of 40k and by now I have even proved that a total GK noob can table an experienced ork player simply by not making any mistakes.

You have options, They are in your codex...

Deffrolla = D6 Str10 Hits.... i believe that means you wound on a 2+?
Zzap Guns= 2D6 Str potential for 2+ to wound here
Deffguns= D3 shots at Str7 3+ to wound.
Kanz= KMB Str 8 ap 2= ez answer

I dont play orks, only against them, I also Dont own the Ork Dex, but thats what i came up with while at work, off the top of my head...

just saying.

If it were me... Id Take all My wagons and ram the sh!t outta that DK with my Rolla... Worst case scenario is he has to deal with whats inside after.

 Pyriel- wrote:

This is not true. Although GKs are tough for some ork lists, greenskins are capable of taking down GKs. I have had a good amount of success with my shooty ork and allies list against GK. As always the main advatage we have is our ability to bring too many models to the table, but I can see how the OP would be complaining about going against 2 DKs, those stupid flamers eat lootas all day, it sucks. Allies can help bring that bad boy down, and if they are footslogging a death star accross the map, skirt around it and spend some turns firing your lootas and dakkajets into it, then maybe afterwards throw a mob of boyz and in two turns hopefully kill it or just have it tied up, either way without at reliable ap 2 shooting, buckets of dice, lots of PKs (nob bikers), or a huge mob of boys is your way to go.

Well, yes and no.
Orks CAN beat GK...I have read about this miraculous phenomena online where apparently some people are such good or bad players and suffer such good or bad luck that this indeed does occur but in real life...never.

The last time I had an argument about this I promptly proved my point by arranging a test game where I used an 1850p ork army, a fairly cheesy one and my opponent was given an GK army with no dreadknights and no incinerators in it.

To add insult to the whole thing my GK opponent was a friend of mine who had NEVER played one single game of 40k. He knew absolutelly nothing of the game, its rules nor mechanics, this was the first game in his life and he was simply given hints and tips and was told the rules and mechanics by another 40k player in real time as we played.

...I and my orks were tabled to the last model on turn 5. As for his wiped losses he had lost only one full squad.



Orks are plentiful here and I am yet to see one single game where orks actually managed to win over the GKs, I once saw a draw but that is it.
Of all my games where I use my own GK army I am yet to experience any other ending then either tabling or almost tabling the orks and I have met everything from trukk rushes, to loota masses to shock attack gun pies to foot hordes to kan walls to the boring old bikenobs and even faced lists that are copies of what Dash used in his tournaments. The only ork army that I am yet to face and table is a meganob army.
Facing orks with GK is just as exciting as stealing candy from a tied up baby.

Orks vs GK is the single most unbalanced matchup in the entire game of 40k and by now I have even proved that a total GK noob can table an experienced ork player simply by not making any mistakes.

Grey Knights are chumps, you have to just avoid close combat with anyone using psycho nades. pretty much the main rule of thumb is "don't be stupid even orks have limits and Grey Knights ascend beyond those limits in CC not not so much in shooting less you see psylincers or purifiers. The reason you think it isn't going to happen is I imagine you don't know how to dismantle the enemy's codex and went about the game like normal (a big mistake regardless of who/what you play) purifiers and nades make ork CC cry. Instant kills makes us cry but you know how to stop these things? Dakka jets, lootas, kannons/big gunz and boom gunz. when the enemy is finally on you just need to hope you charge him before vice versa happens.

 Kharrak wrote:
Your sergeant can only be challenged if he is currently engaged and can strike blows in the combat. Meaning that if your sergeant is more than 2" away from a model in base to base with the enemy, he can't be challenged. Last line of Accepting a Challenge in pg 64.

@Tednugent. Yup. Then he gets challenged. But at very least he gets one round to get his attacks in and able to spread the damage, which is obviously better than no rounds at all.

A model is considered engaged if: during its Initiative phase it is able to strike blows. Last line of page 23.

If the model can pile in and strike blows during its initiative then it is engaged. So a model that is out of the 2 inch combat range but can pile in and reach it is still considered engaged.

Luck is not needed in the Ork Codex, it IS THE ORK CODEX. If you're rolling badly and your units aren't making miraculous rolls then the only thing that's wrong is that your WAAAGH!!! isn't strong enough.

I know they are points heavy, but flash gits have a 50/50 chance of shooting at ap2 and 1/3 chance of ap1
There goes the 2+ saves.

 enooNaMI wrote:
A model is considered engaged if: during its Initiative phase it is able to strike blows. Last line of page 23.

If the model can pile in and strike blows during its initiative then it is engaged. So a model that is out of the 2 inch combat range but can pile in and reach it is still considered engaged.

Wait, I think you're confused.

Challenges are issued at the start of combat, before consolidation moves are made. It is at this point that you check to see who is within that 2" bubble. Your perception starts throwing stones in a china store house. This is prudent since (a) there may simply be too many bodies to allow a model to be able to pile in regardless, and (b) casualties taken later in that combat may make other models engaged that otherwise wouldn't be able to. Since you can't foresee how many casualties there are, you can't automatically assume that characters WILL or WILL NOT be able to pile in.

Hell, just look at the example on the very page you cited. The guardians are not considered engaged, even though they would be able to consolidate into combat during their initiative phase.

So, basically, if at the start of an assault your sergeant is outside of that 2" bubble, he can't be challenged. If he can then consolidate to be within that 2" bubble, he can then strike blows.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CYBORK wrote:
I know they are points heavy, but flash gits have a 50/50 chance of shooting at ap2 and 1/3 chance of ap1
There goes the 2+ saves.

Flashgits have a 33% change of getting ap2. They also have a 33% change of getting ap5. Which wouldn't help you against any 3+ and 2+ models.

You COULD increase that ap2 chance to 50%, but then you're (a) spending more points, and (b) giving them Get's Hot.

CYBORK wrote:
I know they are points heavy, but flash gits have a 50/50 chance of shooting at ap2 and 1/3 chance of ap1
There goes the 2+ saves.

The problem there is, with that upgrade, you end up rolling ones, and youve only a 4+ save to save them. Thats a LOT of points to kill off on your own

Instant kills makes us cry but you know how to stop these things? Dakka jets, lootas, kannons/big gunz and boom gunz. when the enemy is finally on you just need to hope you charge him before vice versa happens.

And I have faced all those units and their iterations as well as used them myself. Pretty much every single thing in the GK codex is basically made to be anti ork.
It is a common misconception that purifyers are the one true ork killer in the gk codex, purifyers are very sensitive to lootas as they rely on transportation and almost the worst HQ in the game and lootas eat transports for breakfast.
Every single model carries a stormbolter, often at S5 and there are S7 cannons baked in everywhere. I am yet to feel the need to have a purifyer to handle the horde/light transport aspect of any ork army.

I pretty much never use purifyers in general and when playing against orks I have never, ever used purifyers and I still get very surprised if I havent tabled the ork army, however it might look with dakka jets or no dakka jets, by the end of the game.

Sad but the reality is this that the ork codex simply isnt on pair with the GK and needs to be remade.

if you wanna get fluffy flash gits with -1 AP and +1S would have a 50/50 chance to ignore its armor and wound on a 4+

but deffidently not cost effective

 Pyriel- wrote:

Instant kills makes us cry but you know how to stop these things? Dakka jets, lootas, kannons/big gunz and boom gunz. when the enemy is finally on you just need to hope you charge him before vice versa happens.

And I have faced all those units and their iterations as well as used them myself. Pretty much every single thing in the GK codex is basically made to be anti ork.
It is a common misconception that purifyers are the one true ork killer in the gk codex, purifyers are very sensitive to lootas as they rely on transportation and almost the worst HQ in the game and lootas eat transports for breakfast.
Every single model carries a stormbolter, often at S5 and there are S7 cannons baked in everywhere. I am yet to feel the need to have a purifyer to handle the horde/light transport aspect of any ork army.

I pretty much never use purifyers in general and when playing against orks I have never, ever used purifyers and I still get very surprised if I havent tabled the ork army, however it might look with dakka jets or no dakka jets, by the end of the game.

Sad but the reality is this that the ork codex simply isnt on pair with the GK and needs to be remade.

Yes the ork codex is in need of an update, this time with trolls as MC's and gatling gunz that are heavy 20 just a few things on my wishlist...

Anyways back to the point, yes gk are deffinately a tough match-up for orks, but not impossible to beat. I have had success against my friends gk's with orks (and he was using purifiers too) just dont give up on the greenskins and you will find a way

So how did you do it?

And imo, purifyers suck, there are much better things.

 Pyriel- wrote:
So how did you do it?

And imo, purifyers suck, there are much better things.

I do it frequently. Battlewagons, nob bikers, shoota boyz, lootaz.

When I go GK I feel the most resistance if the orks have massed lootas and two shokk attack guns, those are really dangerous with good range.
Nob bikers tend to be a waste against me due to all the hammerhand/forceweapon combos.

I play both GK and orks by the way.

So far my record vs grey knights is 5 and 2 at local tourneys. I generally run either 2 10 man loota squads or 3 smaller, 2 battlewagons one or two dakkajets, a wierdboy and mega armored war boss, 2 or 3 squads of shoota boys that will fit in the wagons with either boss, 5 mega nobs with a truk, and lately 10 gretchin and aegis defense line with a quad gun. List varies sometimes only 2 squads of boys sometimes no quad gun just depends on point limit. Would like to add some big guns to the mix as well maybe xmas will bring some.
If I see 10 paladins I try to lure him to deepstrike in a certain area where ya they will kill a unit when they come in but then they are going to be marching around turn after turn. I will say that I have not faced 2 DK's at once so that might change things but since it's tourneys both the GK player and I have to be ready to face all comers maybe that is making a big difference for some players if the GK is tailoring for Orks they might get a leg up. The hardest games vs GK I have fought so far are the ones that spend less points on big units like paladins and just put more feet on the ground.

 Pyriel- wrote:
So how did you do it?

And imo, purifyers suck, there are much better things.

There is almost nothing in the codex better than Purifiers. They punch out 16 S7 rending shots, and 12 S4 shots at only 280 points. Not only that, but they hold their own in combat as well.

I don't understand how anyone could think they suck.

There is almost nothing in the codex better than Purifiers. They punch out 16 S7 rending shots, and 12 S4 shots at only 280 points. Not only that, but they hold their own in combat as well.

I don't understand how anyone could think they suck.

Strikers are better in most cases.

Purifyers:
They require fragile transports in order to work...which ups their cost and can be blown up easily.

They cannot deepstrike.

They die just as easy as the cheaper strikers.

They cannot ward other units or themselves from deepstriking enemies.

They require an additional 150p completely wasted in the form of the worst HQ in the game.

They almost automatically give the opponent first blood as well as slay the warlord points (see above).

And as someone already pointed out...they are a SHOOTY unit that happens to be ok in CC, they are pretty much never to be used as some sort of melee chasing unit but stand and shoot.


Strikers when played as they should, are superior on the tabletop.
You get less psycannons but more and cheaper casualty soakers, far more S5 stormbolters that also cost less per stormbolter and you get more booth on the ground plus screw up the opponents deepstriking.


The purifyer gimmick was ok back when rhinos werent crappy deathtraps (well, they were but not as bad as they are now) and ran in a MSU type of list.
They are like trying to run a sternguard army although the SM get a far better HQ and sternguards are also so much better then normal tacs but...that idea too suck.

 Pyriel- wrote:

There is almost nothing in the codex better than Purifiers. They punch out 16 S7 rending shots, and 12 S4 shots at only 280 points. Not only that, but they hold their own in combat as well.

I don't understand how anyone could think they suck.

Strikers are better in most cases.

Purifyers:
They require fragile transports in order to work...which ups their cost and can be blown up easily.

They cannot deepstrike.

They die just as easy as the cheaper strikers.

They cannot ward other units or themselves from deepstriking enemies.

They require an additional 150p completely wasted in the form of the worst HQ in the game.

They almost automatically give the opponent first blood as well as slay the warlord points (see above).

And as someone already pointed out...they are a SHOOTY unit that happens to be ok in CC, they are pretty much never to be used as some sort of melee chasing unit but stand and shoot.


Strikers when played as they should, are superior on the tabletop.
You get less psycannons but more and cheaper casualty soakers, far more S5 stormbolters that also cost less per stormbolter and you get more booth on the ground plus screw up the opponents deepstriking.


The purifyer gimmick was ok back when rhinos werent crappy deathtraps (well, they were but not as bad as they are now) and ran in a MSU type of list.
They are like trying to run a sternguard army although the SM get a far better HQ and sternguards are also so much better then normal tacs but...that idea too suck.

But ten Strikers are only 40 points less, by the time you've bought Psybolts. I can buy the Purifiers for 40 more points per squad, and I get 8 more Psycannon shots, 2A, and Cleansing Flame. You certainly don't need a Rhino to make them work as you can still walk forward 6" a turn and either fire all your snapshots at any fliers that happen to be on the table, or still fire your Psycannons in Assault mode. Sure, Crowe sucks but he's only necessary for a spam army and doesn't preclude you taking another HQ if you want.

The Strikers may be 40 points cheaper, but if anything gets into combat with them they're toast, and they just can't compete with the volume of fire Purifiers can put out. Yes, they're a shooting unit that happens to be ok in combat, but they're a really good shooting unit. Even without Crowe, taking a Grandmaster instead you can scout them up the board, and add a cheap Inquisitor with Prescience for extra face-melting goodness. There's simply no comparison to Strike Squads at all. They'll never be able to do the same job.

We'll just have to disagree.
its never efective to run short ranged super expensive foot models that die just as easy as their cheaper counterparts and that need 2 hqs to even start working properly.
A 200P GM hq just to make them walk 6' forward...listen to yourself lol

Are strikers the ones that can zip around the battlefield? I really need to read the GK dex this weekend again


If so, I thought about making a cool looking GK army one day, that had those lot that can move like jump troops and shunt, along with a couple Dreadknights with the same option. I figured Id go fast and hard and win, or fast and hard and die

Nope, those are interceptors, not worth taking since they are almost as overpriced as jumppack vanguards.

Strike squads are the cheap and hard shooting bread and butter of the GK army. They restrict enemy deepstrike, are better in melee then normal marines and are pretty much the only thing worth giving S5 stormbolters.
People keep talking about psycannons but S5 stormbolters if massed are very good at taking out transports and can pick hullpoints of light fliers.

 Pyriel- wrote:
We'll just have to disagree.
its never efective to run short ranged super expensive foot models that die just as easy as their cheaper counterparts and that need 2 hqs to even start working properly.

Truth to be told, you should be using either Coteaz and/or Prescience inquisitors in most strike lists too. 2 sources of Prescience is just too good to pass.

 Pyriel- wrote:
A 200P GM hq just to make them walk 6' forward...listen to yourself lol

You should listen to yourself. Kaldor didn't say anything like that, and you know it. Are you seriously arguing that GK are only usable if meched up? Because that is basis of your 'argument' in this sentence.

Footslogging is completely viable tactic in 6e, exactly as Kaldor pointed out. And GM is only 175 points, not 200.

Now, I do agree that because of Crowe tax, Strike lists are currently better against most lists. But that Purifier squad does pack a lot more firepower than Strike squad does, and unlike Strikes is actually pretty good in cc.

Footslogging is completely viable tactic in 6e, exactly as Kaldor pointed out. And GM is only 175 points, not 200.

Only if range isnt an issue. With GKs range is.

I´d like to see the footslogging purifyer army facing of the IG parking lot or DE ranged boat spam without seriously compromising the purifyer-foot theme..

And GM is only 175 points, not 200.

Semantics.
Add some grenades etc and you´ll tangent the 200p line with ease.

My comment was to highlite the crappiness of purifyers needing a GM in order to be able to reach things...and those werent even my words.

dakka jet great plan..gazgull will rip um a new one for about the same points cost if the dread knight is loaded our right

Grey Knights should stick to fighting Chaos and fooling around under the sheets with the Sisters of Battle (not that the GK's still have genitalia). I don't really have a problem with GK, but I have a problem about Draigo's fluff but that's a story for another day and thread.

@topic
Even with armour and firepower, a foot slogging GK purifier unit wont last long once drowned in a flood of killy shots from a horde of lootas or flash gitz. Considering that CC and cleansing flame is what makes GKs so great, why bother with walking?

Exactly, cleansing flame is mostly a defensive power, no sane player will assault a CF model with a horde and thus we go back one step to the purifyers sucking in that if you want to chase hordes with them in order to CF them you need transports and with transport-assault sucking big time in 6:ed...

On the other hand strikers can DS behind that ork loota squad etc without wading through fire for 2-3 turns in order to reach them.

 Pyriel- wrote:
Exactly, cleansing flame is mostly a defensive power, no sane player will assault a CF model with a horde and thus we go back one step to the purifyers sucking in that if you want to chase hordes with them in order to CF them you need transports and with transport-assault sucking big time in 6:ed...

On the other hand strikers can DS behind that ork loota squad etc without wading through fire for 2-3 turns in order to reach them.

And the Lootas just rush off while raining Snapshots at the Purifiers. At 50% of their normal accuracy.

As a user of the dreadknight, the thing I hate the most is having it tar-pitted for games. It can only kill at most 5 models, 6 on the charge.

One game I played, it got charged by 20 assault marines, including sergeant with power fist, sanguinary priest. Through the use of challenges and some luck the knight killed to entire squad and only lost 2 wounds, however, that was 3.5 turns of the game.

What he is best at is killing the big stuff, like in one turn of combat I killed a squad of thunderwolves etc. Its heaps of the small things that lock him up that is the most annoying.