I am a fan of Phil Kelly and I like the Chaos Codex, I think it is really cool, my only problem with it, is that is seems so Pricey! I don't want to just complain about it without reference so let me reference what I mean. Daemon Princes - wow getting a nice kitted out one forget about it. I have not even run one in the new edition. Defilers - even more expensive - nice unit just too pricey to use. Tsons and plague marines more expensive, Forgefiends yikes, Helldrake - tripple yikes (one weapon at 170 pts - when a Vendetta costs 130 pts and it twin linked on all 3 of its weapons...)
Then you have Oblits that are no longer fearless... and now Abbadon can't join a squad because he has all 4 marks of chaos... A lord or a sorcerer of a different mark can not join one with a different mark (I guess that makes some sense - but limmiting).
I love the codex and will play it, it just seems a little pricey for points compared to other new codexes out there... What are your thoughts.
Like I said I will play the new codex and I do like the way it works, but I think overall the point costs will make it a hard one to compete with.
Oh, this thread again. Well the common consensus is that it just seems to be 4th ed with 6th ed USR's slapped into it. I sold my Chaos Army because of it.
Don't worry about it, you'll probably see this thread every week
The book is an improvement on the previous one, but largely still a 4th edition book. There's some cool stuff in it, but a lot of unnecessary changes as well (defilers going up in cost...) and overall many of the issues of the previous book and the basic paradigm remain intact.
It's definitely better, but unfortunately that's not saying much A missed opportunity for a truly epic launch. But ultimately, an improvement, however lackluster.
The codex isn't the new GK or Nercon matt ward nonsense. Do you really want stupid cheap stuff, in both senses, and everyone playing that army and one build out of that army?
I don't. The points are fine, you pay for what you get. The book is balanced internally and nothing completely outshines something else for a slot.
Nobody is saying they wanted the next "ward nonsense" book, but no, not all the costs are right. Defilers at nearly 200pts are ridiculously overcosted, they were rarely seen as useful at 150, increasing that by nearly 33% after a net decrease in lifespan with Hull Points is ridiculous. Likewise the Mark of Tzeentch, aside from a couple of units, is grossly over inflated in value. There's a lot that's far from useful in terms of cost. By not useful I don't mean "they need to be zomgwtfpwnfaceamazing" I mean, completely not worth it.
juraigamer wrote: The codex isn't the new GK or Nercon matt ward nonsense. Do you really want stupid cheap stuff, in both senses, and everyone playing that army and one build out of that army?
I don't. The points are fine, you pay for what you get. The book is balanced internally and nothing completely outshines something else for a slot.
But in a meta where GK, Crons, SW and IG exist, a codex that's below that curve, objectively speaking, isn't a good book. It doesn't matter if the book measures up to some abstract definition of "balanced" that you have in your head, it matters how well it stands up to the other codexes that actually exist. Just like you can't tell me a Tac Marine from C:SM is balanced when a Grey Hunter who's better in every way is cheaper in C:SW. At some point, you have to acknowledge where the power level of the game as a whole is at, and measure codexes against that standard. The new C:CSM book fails to meet that standard.
Besides, since when does "good" mean "everyone always spams one build all the time"? IG, maybe, but GK, Crons and SW all offer multiple flavors of delicious cheese that measure up relatively well to each other.
Eiluj The Farseer wrote:I am a fan of Phil Kelly and I like the Chaos Codex, I think it is really cool, my only problem with it, is that is seems so Pricey! I don't want to just complain about it without reference so let me reference what I mean. Daemon Princes - wow getting a nice kitted out one forget about it. I have not even run one in the new edition. Defilers - even more expensive - nice unit just too pricey to use. Tsons and plague marines more expensive, Forgefiends yikes, Helldrake - tripple yikes (one weapon at 170 pts - when a Vendetta costs 130 pts and it twin linked on all 3 of its weapons...)
Then you have Oblits that are no longer fearless... and now Abbadon can't join a squad because he has all 4 marks of chaos... A lord or a sorcerer of a different mark can not join one with a different mark (I guess that makes some sense - but limmiting).
I love the codex and will play it, it just seems a little pricey for points compared to other new codexes out there... What are your thoughts.
Like I said I will play the new codex and I do like the way it works, but I think overall the point costs will make it a hard one to compete with.
I will preface this by stating I held off starting CSM for 6ish months, because it was fairly well confirmed CSM would be in the starter set, so I have very little experience with the previous book. Honestly, apart from Obliterators / Mutilators (which went down in points) Nothing seems more expensive than it deserves. (And I'm scratchbuilding some Mutilators and Obliterators anyway, so when I try them maybe I'll be wrong, and 2W Terminators with multiple special weapons IS that good... but on paper, not so much).
It would have been nice to get a few new Special Characters, and a few new flavourful units on top of the Fiends and Heldrake, but it's alright as it is.
As to individual points:
Daemon Prince - yes, it's awesome, you can kit it to wreck most anything, and there's a variety of builds for almost every circumstance.
Yes, it's pricey, but again - I don't feel worse than anything else... I mean, my bare-bones (Termi Armour + Black Mace) Terminator Lord is 150pts. A full kitted lord can easily push 200 points, or more, and when my Fabius Bile turned into a Daemon Prince, a barebones Prince with Power Armour is the same price, and significantly killier.
I'll also be making a Slaaneshy Prince later to run anyway.
Defilers - Defilers are awesome. Sat mine at the back of the field and it killed 2 entire squads of Grey Hunters, a Rune Priest, a Wolf Lord and half a squad of Long Fangs (some.. 500-600pts?) all on his lonesome, just using his Battle Cannon. Kinda want a second one.
Plague Marines - They cost 1 more point than they used to, and are 11pts more than a standard Chaos Marine.
HOWEVER, for that 11pts, the get +1 Toughness, Poison (4+) Weapons (which includes re-roll to wound against Toughness 4 or lower opponents), Blight Grenades and Fearless, as well as being able to take 2 Special Weapons at 5 men. They're generally lauded as the best marked troop. (Though personally I'm partial to Noise Marines)
Thousand Sons - I've heard regularly are decent enough, though not especially amazing.
Heldrake - Ok, yes, the Heldrake is 170pts. It's also AV12/12/10, has 3 Hullpoints, a 5+ invun save, and regenerates Hull Points on a 5+. Its '1 gun' is either a 4 shot Str8 cannon, OR, a Str6 AP3 Flamer that you can place anywhere within 12" of the Heldrakes face. As well as it can inflict D6 Str7 hits against a unit once per turn.
Plus pretty much everyone agrees that the Vendetta is undercosted anyway
Oblits - as I said before... even with Fearless, I'm not sure it's worth it.. but I'll find out!
ShatteredBlade wrote: Oh, this thread again. Well the common consensus is that it just seems to be 4th ed with 6th ed USR's slapped into it. I sold my Chaos Army because of it.
From what I've gathered... not quite. It's slightly changed, few new units, but a solid book overall, yes a lot of units were simply 'updated'....
But either you're specifically 'power gaming' or this was a fairly childish response...
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: I am a fan of Phil Kelly and I like the Chaos Codex, I think it is really cool, my only problem with it, is that is seems so Pricey.
My list (pure Nurgle) can effectively afford a new Dread despite staying virtually identical. Some things went up in price but some things went down.
The new CSM codex headed in a direction akin to how the newer 8th ed Fantasy books are going... Nothing is "omfg-win-button!1!!!1!', and there's no 'real' dud units. (Defilers which seem to be popular to hate-on are still good and killy and are more survivable than most other vehicles, but pay appropriately for it)
I'd much rather see a couple years of the already well-known problem codices continue to be problems, but get brought down to the 'balanced medium', than see a continuation of 5th ed's f-up OTT arms race that only invalidates and breaks entire armies!
I personally find it's more powerful than the 4e codex, as the new tools they DID introduce are worthwhile. It's definitely further down the power curve than Guard or Necrons, but it's not down at the bottom with Black Templars or Eldar. But unlike other recent books, it is most decidedly an update rather than a total overhaul, and that is arguably better than the overhaul. However, it does seem like Phil Kelly decided to err on the conservative side whenever he had to make a call on costing.
Access to MoN actually makes Oblits a lot more annoying, as you can't just oneshot them with lascannons anymore. However their new special rule is a definite hindrance. I feel they're just barely worth it as long as you rely on them as a swiss army knife rather than as the primary long range AT solution they were in the last book.
As for the Heldrake, the mechanics of Vector Strike noticeably limit its ability to employ it. You need to both fly over a target worth vector striking, and wind up with the nose pointed at what you want to use your other gun on. Intelligent dispersement of forces can actually make doing this against desirable targets rather difficult. It's fantastic against an army that has deployed with distinct forward and backfield elements, especially ones that operate that way as a matter of course.
I like the Helldrake, but I think it is too expensive. The hellfireautocannon is nice but at BS3 only 1-2 shots will hit per turn. At least with the Bale flamer BS is not a factor, but then it makes the unit not be able to fire if shaken (no snapfire for template weapons), vector striking is D3+1 I think not D6 and is at S7 which is nice. I got lucky once and penned a leman russ, but most of the time it is not a very spectacular results.
I think it is still too expensive as well as the Forgefiend and Defiler. I like the defiler but man I don't care if it has 4 hull points or not, one pen with a melta and on a 4 or more it explodes negating all those nice hullpoints... I have seen it happen more than once. My nurgle plague marines have done it to a Land Raider more than once as well.
-Daemon Princes did take a huge nerf. They can still be very potent with the right load out (wings seem to be a must). I've heard good things about MoK with the axe of blind fury, or MoS with the black mace. I still have yet to use one, but I probably will soon.
-Defilers are still pretty good, even for their cost. My biggest beef with them is that i just have terrible luck with them. They always seem to explode turn 1 for me.
-Plague marines are 1 point more, but they also get poisoned melee weapons. +1 point for 4+ poison? I'd take that any day.
-Haven't really used thousand sons, but I can see them being effective if you drive 'em up in a rhino and then rapid-fire a squad into oblivion. Still pricey, but then again that hasn't really changed from the last book.
-Forgefiends are expensive, but can put out some serious str 8 hurt. They can also regain hull points (as can defilers). I'd say their biggest downside is that they're going to pull in a lot of fire because of their threat level.
-Helldrakes don't have just one weapon, they ARE a weapon. Sure, they could lose the bale flamer, but they can still fly around vector striking everything. It won't be as effective, but it still has the potential to do some damage. If you were to lose all the weapons on any other flyer, they'd have nothing.
-Obliterators are still very effective, even without fearless. Considering they're only really going to have to make one or two leadership tests in a game from shooting (and that's only if you run them in squads), it probably won't even come into play. With nurgle, they're also T5, making them immune to all instant death short of str 10. I've still had great success with them.
-Abbadon can still hang out with unmarked buddies, and overall got much more potent IMO.
I stand corrected, Yes it IS D3+1,
The Heldrakes being D3+1, Str7, AP3 hits.
Also - BS3 should be an average of 2.
I don't have my Heldrakes yet, and they'll be magnetised regardless, but I'll be leaning towards the Hades Autocannon over the Baleflamer.
Eiluj The Farseer wrote:I think it is still too expensive as well as the Forgefiend and Defiler. I like the defiler but man I don't care if it has 4 hull points or not, one pen with a melta and on a 4 or more it explodes negating all those nice hullpoints... I have seen it happen more than once. My nurgle plague marines have done it to a Land Raider more than once as well.
Chance you take with anything that it'll die before being useful.
I've had Necrons Deepstrike in and murder my Broadsides with 2+ flamers that ignore armour,
GimbleMuggernaught wrote:-Forgefiends are expensive, but can put out some serious str 8 hurt. They can also regain hull points (as can defilers). I'd say their biggest downside is that they're going to pull in a lot of fire because of their threat level.
That's a good thing in and of itself in my opinion. It's a force modifier - they draw in fire, taking it off the rest of your army.
Like my Talos in my DE army - They'll either get ignored and make it to Rapeface town, or (more likely) draw mass amounts of fire (cos people are generally irrationally scared of 2 S/T 7 Monstrous Creatures coming towards them), leaving the rest of the army to get into position and get into combat where it belongs while the 2 Talos give withering fire walking up the field. 1 of the Talos generally makes it to the enemy regardless, and kills wipes something out anyway.
When I first got my helldrakes it was going to be autocannon all the way for me, but I really have found the baleflamer to be more effective esp with the AP and ignore cover. You are right the technical average is 2 but most times it seems like less over the whole game. I magnetized all of mine too so they can be loaded out either way. Cheers man and thanks for the input.
Sure, it's great against stuff like heavy weapons teams and long fangs, but you're paying the points for a thing that flies that isn't going to go after enemy fliers.
With vector strike, you can fly over said targets for the bale flamer and still blast the guys vehicle(s).
Any opponent who gets flamered is going to spread out after the first time, rendering it far less effective.
Ovion wrote:
Defilers - Defilers are awesome. Sat mine at the back of the field and it killed 2 entire squads of Grey Hunters, a Rune Priest, a Wolf Lord and half a squad of Long Fangs (some.. 500-600pts?) all on his lonesome, just using his Battle Cannon. Kinda want a second one.
Not typical performance, and a Leman Russ Battle Tank will do the same thing with AV14 for 50pts less, or a Vindicator with AV13 at closer range for 75pts less than a Defiler. You pay for a lot of mutually exclusive abilities with the defiler on top of a poor statline for a combat walker, on a mid AV platform and pay as much or more than a kitted heavy battle tank with better armor.
there seems to be mixed opinion on the chaos marine codex. i don't know why, it is totally Please do not use the word "gay" as a pejorative. Thanks! ~ Manchu. Princes are mega expensive not eternal warrior are don't do anything especially new from previous edition. there are no new named characters despite the fact that there are as many traitor legions in the background as there are loyalist legions, big opportunity missed there just to reinstate the word bearers or night lords with rules and not just a paint scheme. the models like talons and fiends are nice but don't add anything new or necessary and are expensive in money and points, khorne berserkers are puffs now, they should be the apex power armour close combat unit and they are not, just look at death company in comparison and try to argue they are balanced.....they are not! thousand sons are the worst wizards in the galaxy, psyker level one and they have to roll randomly for their spells one of which is warp charge 2, one kills your own characters, one is anti tank in a unit that can only shoot effectively at marines and the primaris is tollerable at best. Emperors children who i love the background for are no longer a move shoot and assault in one turn unit, they are a Please do not use the word "gay" as a pejorative. Thanks! ~ Manchu stand at the back and shoot like cowards unit, they are the only unit in the whole of the game that gets less effective if it moves closer to its intended target before shooting, salvo has broken them only the blastmaster redeems them and you have to have models 10 not 6 to get it (what happened to favoured numbers?) everything has had its leadership nerfed despite the fact that they have no rules like And They Shall Know No Fear to compensate only the mark of fearless at 25pts+ which can be precision shot from a unit anyway. the challenge system is cack. "i'm a mighty lord of chaos and i'm going to murder your whole squad all by my self, wait what's that, you want to challenge me, ok then i'll condescend to that, and waste an entire turn killing just one craptastic runtherd." there are so many other things like wtf are mutilators supposed to do? they are too slow and have difficulty hanging on to the same weapon for more than 3 seconds why? obliterators who can't find the right trigger 2 turns in a row why? random for random sake, the whole codex is pooh. the lack of fluff really gets me down, where are the iron warriors? oh yeah you just paint some men metal colour with yellow and black stripes. where are the nights lords? oh yeah you just paint some men blue with lightning on them. Word bearers anybody? thats right, just paint your men red, Please do not use the word "gay" as a pejorative. Thanks! ~ Manchu! i've started using space wolf rules because they can actually achieve more than a draw in a game. Too many GW sycophants out there who bum lick everything they do, £600+ on chaos stuff and they suck Please don't try to get around our word filter. Thanks! ~ Manchu now.
It's got got enough long range, decent gyus to warrant payign all those points and suitting it at the back, but it's too frail to spend all those points and chareg it forwward.
Either way, mine never (i mean, NEVER) survive past turn 2. It's the first thing my normal IG opponent targets with hsi manticore. When you're firign up to 3 large blasts at S10, somethings going to hit and it only needs a 3 to pen.
My experince with the new codex has actually being very positive compared to the old one, and it made me expand my army quite a bit. I love the fact that now it encourages mono-god themed lists instead of a mish mash of Plague Marines and Khorne bezerkers with 2 DPs at all time.
Most of the arguments you made in the OP are isolations of the bad without the good. For example, yes oblits are lower leadership and need to switch weapons, but now are cheaper, and most importantly, CAN BE T5. This is amazing. Oblits have been boosted simply because of that overall. No longer will they get constantly sniped by Lascannons. It's gotten to the point that noone actually ever shoots at my obliterators any more, cause a T5 2+ 2W monster is not worth shooting at with anything short of a Railgun/Vindicator.
The main things that got really nerfed is DPs and Bezerkers, and DPs are still very good in most situations.
I think people are complaining because they dont want variety, they want SW style undercosted obvious choices. That's bad codex design though.
The Chaos book is a pretty minor change on the old one, yes, but it's actually a middle-of-the-road army competitively instead of the old pattern of making the new book horribly broken and watching everyone jump on the bandwagon, which is a nice change.
I still ike berzerkers. i have tried to squeeze a squad of plague marines into 1500 point lists but they are just toopricey for my liking.
It has given me an excuse to convert and use the hellblade that's been gathering dust for years.
i have also started using terminators more often, but that is largely down to 6th ed rules makeing 2+ saves so amazing.
I was hoping for something bit more...wow when the book came out. I still ike my Chaos army, it was my first army and what got me into the hobby in the first place. But i feel like if i want to win games i need to go back to my Necrons.
Ovion wrote: Defilers - Defilers are awesome. Sat mine at the back of the field and it killed 2 entire squads of Grey Hunters, a Rune Priest, a Wolf Lord and half a squad of Long Fangs (some.. 500-600pts?) all on his lonesome, just using his Battle Cannon. Kinda want a second one.
Not typical performance, and a Leman Russ Battle Tank will do the same thing with AV14 for 50pts less, or a Vindicator with AV13 at closer range for 75pts less than a Defiler. You pay for a lot of mutually exclusive abilities with the defiler on top of a poor statline for a combat walker, on a mid AV platform and pay as much or more than a kitted heavy battle tank with better armor.
Oh I realise it's not standard performance, but it's still impressive. In that same game my Vindicator died turn 2 to angry terminators. (Though the Defiler did manage to weather the Long Fangs missile launchers)
johnboy wrote:
Spoiler:
there seems to be mixed opinion on the chaos marine codex. i don't know why, it is totally gay. Princes are mega expensive not eternal warrior are don't do anything especially new from previous edition. there are no new named characters despite the fact that there are as many traitor legions in the background as there are loyalist legions, big opportunity missed there just to reinstate the word bearers or night lords with rules and not just a paint scheme. the models like talons and fiends are nice but don't add anything new or necessary and are expensive in money and points, khorne berserkers are puffs now, they should be the apex power armour close combat unit and they are not, just look at death company in comparison and try to argue they are balanced.....they are not! thousand sons are the worst wizards in the galaxy, psyker level one and they have to roll randomly for their spells one of which is warp charge 2, one kills your own characters, one is anti tank in a unit that can only shoot effectively at marines and the primaris is tollerable at best. Emperors children who i love the background for are no longer a move shoot and assault in one turn unit, they are a gay stand at the back and shoot like cowards unit, they are the only unit in the whole of the game that gets less effective if it moves closer to its intended target before shooting, salvo has broken them only the blastmaster redeems them and you have to have models 10 not 6 to get it (what happened to favoured numbers?) everything has had its leadership nerfed despite the fact that they have no rules like And They Shall Know No Fear to compensate only the mark of fearless at 25pts+ which can be precision shot from a unit anyway. the challenge system is cack. "i'm a mighty lord of chaos and i'm going to murder your whole squad all by my self, wait what's that, you want to challenge me, ok then i'll condescend to that, and waste an entire turn killing just one craptastic runtherd." there are so many other things like wtf are mutilators supposed to do? they are too slow and have difficulty hanging on to the same weapon for more than 3 seconds why? obliterators who can't find the right trigger 2 turns in a row why? random for random sake, the whole codex is pooh. the lack of fluff really gets me down, where are the iron warriors? oh yeah you just paint some men metal colour with yellow and black stripes. where are the nights lords? oh yeah you just paint some men blue with lightning on them. Word bearers anybody? thats right, just paint your men red, £*cking gay as £*ck! i've started using space wolf rules because they can actually achieve more than a draw in a game. Too many GW sycophants out there who bum lick everything they do, £600+ on chaos stuff and they suck 4rse now.
Good Gods that's terrible. A massive unintelligible wall of text.
Spoiler:
There seems to be mixed opinion on the chaos marine codex. I don't know why, it is totally gay.
Princes are mega expensive, do not eternal warrior are don't do anything especially new from previous edition. They're T5 so Instant Death is only caused by Str10 and weapons with the rule. Hardly that big a thing, and the cost feels appropriate for what they do. There are no new named characters despite the fact that there are as many traitor legions in the background as there are loyalist legions, big opportunity missed there just to reinstate the word bearers or night lords with rules and not just a paint scheme. Yes, this is a shame, it would have been nice to get new characters (or even bring back old ones - I would have loved to make a Doom Rider army), BUT, maybe we'll get a Legions Codex later like I saw rumours floating around for. The models like talons and fiends are nice but don't add anything new or necessary and are expensive in money and points, Khorne Berserkers are puffs now, they should be the apex power armour close combat unit and they are not, just look at death company in comparison and try to argue they are balanced.....they are not! Khorne Berserkers got a bit of a raw deal because they're a dedicated assault unit in a Shooty format. Haven't really looked at Warp Talons as I wasn't really bothered. Thousand Sons are the worst wizards in the galaxy, psyker level one and they have to roll randomly for their spells one of which is warp charge 2, one kills your own characters, one is anti tank in a unit that can only shoot effectively at marines and the primaris is tollerable at best. No idea on that. Emperors children who I love the background for are no longer a move shoot and assault in one turn unit, they are a gay stand at the back and shoot like cowards unit, they are the only unit in the whole of the game that gets less effective if it moves closer to its intended target before shooting, salvo has broken them only the blastmaster redeems them and you have to have models 10 not 6 to get it (what happened to favoured numbers?) You mean the good old Noise Marines that are actually pretty damn good? When I expand my force, it will be with these. Everything has had its leadership nerfed despite the fact that they have no rules like And They Shall Know No Fear to compensate only the mark of fearless at 25pts+ which can be precision shot from a unit anyway. The base marines are also cheaper, and Fearless isn't hard to divvy out. The challenge system is cack. "i'm a mighty lord of chaos and i'm going to murder your whole squad all by my self, wait what's that, you want to challenge me, ok then i'll condescend to that, and waste an entire turn killing just one craptastic runtherd." It fits with the mentality. Plus the Boons table is amusing. But hey. There are so many other things like wtf are mutilators supposed to do? they are too slow and have difficulty hanging on to the same weapon for more than 3 seconds why? Obliterators who can't find the right trigger 2 turns in a row why? random for random sake, the whole codex is pooh. I'm honestly not sure - they seem incredibly expensive for what they do, but I'm scratch building a squad of each to test them out - maybe they'll be worth it... not holding my breath. The lack of fluff really gets me down, where are the iron warriors? Oh yeah you just paint some men metal colour with yellow and black stripes. where are the nights lords? Oh yeah you just paint some men blue with lightning on them. Word bearers anybody? thats right, just paint your men red, £*cking gay as £*ck! This partially actually fits with the theories of a Legion-y Codex coming. That or they've just shafted Chaos. I've started using space wolf rules because they can actually achieve more than a draw in a game. Too many GW sycophants out there who bum lick everything they do, £600+ on chaos stuff and they suck 4rse now. What are you, 6-12? Even space out this whole tirade is barely coherent.
At the end of the day - there's plenty of things they have failed to do, BUT, overall, I like the book - it's internally balanced and hopefully and indication of the books to come.
I like it. I don't care if things are expensive, I don't care if it doesn't have many special rules, I don't care if it's not as competitive as Necrons.
Edit: Accidentally hit enter because I thought it was a different tab.
I like playing Chaos because it's fun. I've never been a WAAC kind of guy, so I like to build my armies with a theme in mind. And even though the Alpha Legion doesn't get representation, the other Legions are a lot of fun to base the army around. When I'm not playing Necrons, I like to play with an Iron Warriors themed list and send in packs of Fiends and have MSU in Rhinos, because it's fun. Sometimes I like to play a Nurgle w/ Epidemius list, which is awesomely fun.
And you know what? Be glad you aren't Tau, Nids, or (D)Eldar.
AnomanderRake wrote: The Chaos book is a pretty minor change on the old one, yes, but it's actually a middle-of-the-road army competitively instead of the old pattern of making the new book horribly broken and watching everyone jump on the bandwagon, which is a nice change.
One concern is that this was one of the things said about the last book when it and the DA book came out in 2007, and then went right out the window immediately after, and nobody wants to see that happen again.
I don't want to be taken the wrong way. I still like the new codex and am glad they got an update. But I feel with the last 5-6 codexes that were put out previously, it just has a hard time competing. The area I play in is competitive, which is fine and fun for me too. The last tourney I was in I had some hella bad dice rolls which can't be helped but by the dice gods. I usually finish in the top 1/4 of my local tourneys and I finished near the bottom. My opponents for the tourney were Space wolves, Dark Eldar and Nids. With what they could bring to the table I just could not beat them. I gave a good fight, but in the end lost them all. I am not placing the blame squarely on the codex, my dice and myself are to blame, but I do think the cost of things in the new codex hampers playing competitively. Will I keep playing Chaos Marines - sure I love playing them. It just is a little frustrating.... Sorry about the whine..
AnomanderRake wrote: The Chaos book is a pretty minor change on the old one, yes, but it's actually a middle-of-the-road army competitively instead of the old pattern of making the new book horribly broken and watching everyone jump on the bandwagon, which is a nice change.
One concern is that this was one of the things said about the last book when it and the DA book came out in 2007, and then went right out the window immediately after, and nobody wants to see that happen again.
Hey, for all we know it won't. In know it seems unlikely, but it's too soon to say for sure. It could be that this truly is a fore-runner to the style of Codex yet to come. If it turns out not to be, then let's kick of rage the likes of which the internet has never seen! Or just, you know, resume the disappointment. Individual preference on that.
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: I don't want to be taken the wrong way. I still like the new codex and am glad they got an update. But I feel with the last 5-6 codexes that were put out previously, it just has a hard time competing. The area I play in is competitive, which is fine and fun for me too. The last tourney I was in I had some hella bad dice rolls which can't be helped but by the dice gods. I usually finish in the top 1/4 of my local tourneys and I finished near the bottom. My opponents for the tourney were Space wolves, Dark Eldar and Nids. With what they could bring to the table I just could not beat them. I gave a good fight, but in the end lost them all. I am not placing the blame squarely on the codex, my dice and myself are to blame, but I do think the cost of things in the new codex hampers playing competitively. Will I keep playing Chaos Marines - sure I love playing them. It just is a little frustrating.... Sorry about the whine..
Honestly, with the number of Autocannons in various flavours CSM can take, Dark Eldar especially shouldn't be an issue.
Combined with the Templates that can be put down, you should easily be able to stand your own against Marines, DE and Nids.
I'm hoping it's just a case of finding my feet with the new codex. i only get to play every coupel of weeks so i've nto had too many games yet.
I think a lot of people (myself included) might be getting shiny model syndrome and trygin to squeeze in the the new expensive models (heldrake, forgefiend, new price defile) into their previously successful lists.
For my next game i plan on going old school and just pick one, then fill up with nice cheap minimalist marine units (they are the same price as a necron warrior now) and see where that takes me.
When you run a set list for a tourney it does not work that way. I was running a nurgle list, which lacks a lot of range weapons. I unfortunately got Hammer and Anvil with Dark Eldar and Night fighting on turn 1, they did a lot of hurt before I could hurt them back or even hit them. The nids it was a matter of objectives and with their sheer numbers I just could not capture or get them off enough objectives. The SW one was a very close game, even with his squad of wolf riders, poison blades on plague marines really helps, but when you get hit by S 10 thunderhammers, that pretty much makes them go squish before you can hit them back. With their speed I could not avoid them long enough.
Isn't the next book DA and it's being written by Ward? I mean I guess it's nice to not be considered the overpowered cheesy new codex, but that's not much comfort if you then get squashed by the next codex that's released.
Plus I don't think being the first codex in a new edition is a good thing. Too many variables in how the new rules will shake out to take into account when designing the codex and units.
AnomanderRake wrote: The Chaos book is a pretty minor change on the old one, yes, but it's actually a middle-of-the-road army competitively instead of the old pattern of making the new book horribly broken and watching everyone jump on the bandwagon, which is a nice change.
Your new Dark Angels book is being written by Mat Ward. It's going to be a broken facemelter. This is all very ironic. Of course, I'm sure you deserve a new cheezy book and you'll be replying about how you earned it and other limp-wristed rebuttals.
And I'll say it in every thread: If it wasn't for the Chaos boons table, this book would almost be objectively worse than the old one. In some ways it probably even is worse.
In all, it's a flop of a release and I hope that Games Workshop just stops ever making Chaos Space Marines so that I don't have to deal with their milquetoast garbage while Space Marines get 90 different codices.
And no haven't bought anything Chaos related in a while. I was planning to but after I looked through it I was just disappointed. I laughed at some chump playing Chaos Space Marines the other day as I overran his pitiful, overpriced, copy-pasted from the 4th edition book Thousand Sons with my legion of Imperial conscripts. My battle tanks demolished his highly overpriced Chaos Space Marines with the Mark of Tzeentch.
My Commissar-led blob of troops held out against a fully kitted Daemon Prince for 3 freaking rounds, and got it down to one wound. I remarked how this wouldn't have happened if Daemon Princes didn't suck this edition.
I just felt sorry for him. Paid 50 bucks for what effectively amounts to a White Dwarf update.
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: So aside from your previous comments, I was just really wondering on how you REALLY felt about the new Chaos Marines codex... lol Just teasing
Glad you asked! Haha
Nah I know I sperg out a lot about Chaos but I really like a lot of the models and background. It's funny because I was one of the few people during the Chaos rumors that was pretty overwhelmingly positive. So now I have to be overwhelmingly negative to balance it all out, y'know? Definitely a lesson about not having high expectations!
Well, there are actually a few effective units in the codes: Lord, CSM, Bikers, Spawn, Plague Marines, Havocs.
Moreover, there are some good choices: Helldrake, Obliterators w/ MoN, Sorcerer, and (to some extent) Termies.
From this, I think its possible to make a decent list.
It really isn't a power issue, although the power is pretty weak.
Defilers are garbage, DP are pretty worthless, Tsons are only gonna show up in fluff lists. Zerkers got nerfed hard. Termiators got nerfed. on and on and on.
At the same time there are some really strong things. Bikes are insanely way to cheap.
Its an ascetic thing. The new units are all pretty mediocer. WIth the exception of the helturkey, which is insterting and unique(flyer with torrent flamer and VS) the new things just arent that exciting:
Warp Talons look awesome, but they are very specialized, and frankly too good at what they do.
Mutilators look cool, sound cool, but have virtually no role to fill and arent very good to boot.
Maulerfiends are fast walkers, with no shooting and two sets of special weapons that serve no purpose.
Forgefiends are larger, more expensive psirifleman. Alternatively they can be a shorter range, overcosted walking LR executioner(the plasma one)
Dark Aposles and Warpsmiths both missed the boat on the rules section. Cool models, cool fluff, but downright mediocer rules, no excitement. (ooo instead of shooting my meltagun at a tank and killing it, I can make "gets hot" and there is a 16% chance it will glance itself next turn)
Cultists seem cool until you realize they are more expensive than guardsmen for less ability in shooty form. For combat they cost a little less than ork boys for far less effectiveness.
Then you have the new chaos sorcer powers. Three sets of 4 powers, 12 all together! Almost all witchfire. 1 blessing, a few maladictions, nothing useful. Across the board worse than the rulebook powers and you are forced to take some rolls on these clearly subpar tables.
The armory was brought back but it is pretty baren. only 2 daemon weapons, teleport homers(icons) removed. Pretty sad with one bright spot, a crazy OP flamer thrown in.
A lot of stuff was fixed, raptors became cheaper. Spawn got much better. PM got even better NM got cheaper, although their sonic weapons dont work. It just wasnt enough and it wasnt exciting.
There is still so much that wasnt fixed. CSM still get 1 sucky land raider. They still only have the flat rhino with combi bolter for transports. They renamed the dreadnaught but failed to give him anything to make him interesting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: further, why are there only 7 SC? C:SM has 10. I understand CSM cannot have 6 books like loyalists, but CSM should have as much fluff, back ground, and choice as C:SM. 10 SC would have really gone a long way to making iron warriros, alpha legion and word bearers players happy.
I actually like the codex but i have friends who dont and i can see their points.
The thing is its only a bad codex if future 6th ed codex's are stupidly powerful, the dark angel codex and Tau will give us an idea of where it stands in the grand theme of things.
Comparing it to old codex's isnt ideal as stuff like the valkyrie is now far too cheap for what it does since the flyer rules came into effect.
actually like the codex but i have friends who dont and i can see their points.
The thing is its only a bad codex if future 6th ed codex's are stupidly powerful,
It's also cheaply made and has an odd lack of innovation, which is my main issue with it.
I don't mind if it's mid tier, I mind if there's a very noticeable lack of effort to give some updates or changes. Like Marks for Vehicles that really should've been back, even forgeworld added this!
My passion for the chaos marines has not diminished with this new codex nor did it with the previous codex when that was released. now on my third chaos codex and it seems to have become progresively more bland and generic with each release. How can you say otherwise? My biggest grumble with the codex is the lack of legion representation and no teleport homers or new named characters, daemon princes have obviously been rubbished because everbody used them in the previous codex, the perfect time to introduce new characters is when you nerf princes. havocs are a good choice now but are still out shot by space wolves. still love the fluff but the codex has failed to capture the true essence of evil and the artwork is cartoony at times!
I've no prior experience with chaos, but I've been enjoying collecting and painting my CSM, and played one game that went well for me. Only 1 game in with them so far, and I'm using daemon allies as well.
I found that some of the characters, well particularly typhus, were devastating in close combat with their daemon weapons.
Have a forgefiend but haven't assembled it yet, but it looks awesome.
I like the idea of the typhus zombie horde. I mainly like this book because I can make a very evil, nasty, ugly looking army, in conjunction with daemon allies, that isn't a standard space marine list with lots of tanks or heavy infantry types. I like having some real monsters in my army now.
The defiler has always looked lame to me, and not something I'd be interested in collecting or painting. Maybe a cool scratchbuilt model would make it appealing...
Also, I'm only interested in a mono Nurgle list, as the other chaos forces aren't appealing to me. I found that the plague marines were big winners, and were very effective at killing space marines with dual plasma guns in every squad, and the T5 + feel no pain REALLY pissed off my opponent!
Even getting assaulted, they held their ground with the defensive grenades and actually routed the attacker with the poisoned weapons. They're definitely going to be my bread-and-butter troop choice.
The heldrakes look pretty sweet and I'd love to have some, but at ~ $70 a pop, that's a pricey deal.
At any rate, I'm satisfied with the codex and appreciate the hardbound book and color artwork.
I just hope Matt the terrible codex writer ward does not go to town on the dark angels and make chaos marines look like complete arse.... Pappa Nurgle should be very angry right now.
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: I just hope Matt the terrible codex writer ward does not go to town on the dark angels and make chaos marines look like complete arse.... Pappa Nurgle should be very angry right now.
Well, Ward will show us again how to write an ''interesting'' codex - something very different from the boring CSM book.
Cave_Dweller wrote: Well, I guess you can't please everyone. :p .... At any rate, I'm satisfied with the codex and appreciate the hardbound book and color artwork.
Of course you are. You're playing "Codex: Nurgle Or Go Home". Also you didn't have the high expectations that most Chaos players had since we've been playing for a while so it's not nearly as difficult for you to have a good reaction.
Not knocking on you of course. If you're having fun that's good! Just be aware that here and elsewhere there are many who are not nearly as impressed.
Cave_Dweller wrote: Well, I guess you can't please everyone. :p
....
At any rate, I'm satisfied with the codex and appreciate the hardbound book and color artwork.
Of course you are. You're playing "Codex: Nurgle Or Go Home". Also you didn't have the high expectations that most Chaos players had since we've been playing for a while so it's not nearly as difficult for you to have a good reaction.
Not knocking on you of course. If you're having fun that's good!
Just be aware that here and elsewhere there are many who are not nearly as impressed.
There's a great deal of butthurt always going around in this game, nothing new there.
Cave_Dweller wrote: Well, I guess you can't please everyone. :p
....
At any rate, I'm satisfied with the codex and appreciate the hardbound book and color artwork.
Of course you are. You're playing "Codex: Nurgle Or Go Home". Also you didn't have the high expectations that most Chaos players had since we've been playing for a while so it's not nearly as difficult for you to have a good reaction.
Not knocking on you of course. If you're having fun that's good!
Just be aware that here and elsewhere there are many who are not nearly as impressed.
There's a great deal of butthurt always going around in this game, nothing new there.
>Implying someone who doesn't like the codex is butthurt and doesn't have legit issues with it
>Implying that I'm butthurt when you're the one who paid 50 bucks for something with 100 pages
My Commissar-led blob of troops held out against a fully kitted Daemon Prince for 3 freaking rounds, and got it down to one wound. I remarked how this wouldn't have happened if Daemon Princes didn't suck this edition.
I think you'll find that it would, unless you're expecting a Daemon Prince to kill off 30+ models over 3 turns. Stubborn kinda does that.
My Commissar-led blob of troops held out against a fully kitted Daemon Prince for 3 freaking rounds, and got it down to one wound. I remarked how this wouldn't have happened if Daemon Princes didn't suck this edition.
I think you'll find that it would, unless you're expecting a Daemon Prince to kill off 30+ models over 3 turns. Stubborn kinda does that.
It was only 20 guys+Commissar with a power maul who kept bashing the Prince. For how much it costed I expected the Prince to run all over them.
My Commissar-led blob of troops held out against a fully kitted Daemon Prince for 3 freaking rounds, and got it down to one wound. I remarked how this wouldn't have happened if Daemon Princes didn't suck this edition.
I think you'll find that it would, unless you're expecting a Daemon Prince to kill off 30+ models over 3 turns. Stubborn kinda does that.
It was only 20 guys+Commissar with a power maul who kept bashing the Prince. For how much it costed I expected the Prince to run all over them.
The old "better" Daemon Prince wouldn't have killed them any faster. They're kinda an anti-deathstar.
The Deamon Prince surviving getting hit by 30 models over the course of three turns is bad? It may not have won like you wanted, but it did survive quite a bit.
juraigamer wrote: The codex isn't the new GK or Nercon matt ward nonsense. Do you really want stupid cheap stuff, in both senses, and everyone playing that army and one build out of that army?
I don't. The points are fine, you pay for what you get. The book is balanced internally and nothing completely outshines something else for a slot.
I wanted a codex that had something over others, but it is honestly just the fourth edition codex, it could have been covered in a White Dwarf update. I didn't want Matt Ward cheese, just a well designed and hard hitting army, but it isn't.
My Commissar-led blob of troops held out against a fully kitted Daemon Prince for 3 freaking rounds, and got it down to one wound. I remarked how this wouldn't have happened if Daemon Princes didn't suck this edition.
I think you'll find that it would, unless you're expecting a Daemon Prince to kill off 30+ models over 3 turns. Stubborn kinda does that.
It was only 20 guys+Commissar with a power maul who kept bashing the Prince. For how much it costed I expected the Prince to run all over them.
The old "better" Daemon Prince wouldn't have killed them any faster. They're kinda an anti-deathstar.
No, but at least it would have been able to avoid them with the Lash as opposed to just getting charged.
In any case, let's not make this about one isolated example, albeit a fairly telling one. I still want to hear the stories of Daemon Princes getting one-shotted by a Demolisher cannon while Marneus Calgar walks away with only 1 less wound.
My Commissar-led blob of troops held out against a fully kitted Daemon Prince for 3 freaking rounds, and got it down to one wound. I remarked how this wouldn't have happened if Daemon Princes didn't suck this edition.
I think you'll find that it would, unless you're expecting a Daemon Prince to kill off 30+ models over 3 turns. Stubborn kinda does that.
It was only 20 guys+Commissar with a power maul who kept bashing the Prince. For how much it costed I expected the Prince to run all over them.
The old "better" Daemon Prince wouldn't have killed them any faster. They're kinda an anti-deathstar.
No, but at least it would have been able to avoid them with the Lash as opposed to just getting charged.
Whereas the new one is a flying monstrous creature and as such should be able to easily stay clear of any blobs. That, conveniently enough, also makes it immune to blast weapons.
Whereas the new one is a flying monstrous creature and as such should be able to easily stay clear of any blobs. That, conveniently enough, also makes it immune to blast weapons.
Yeah it's about 200 base (195 if slaaneshi) if you're a FMC, and that's without other upgrades. And let's not pretend that it's super difficult to ground a FMC either.
Furthermore, for the price of a single Daemon Prince with wings, powered armor, and a single mastery level, you could almost buy 2 of the old 4th edition Daemon Princes which conveniently had Eternal Warrior so that they didn't completely suck.
As it is, for their price they're still too fragile.
DrDuckman wrote: My experince with the new codex has actually being very positive compared to the old one, and it made me expand my army quite a bit. I love the fact that now it encourages mono-god themed lists instead of a mish mash of Plague Marines and Khorne bezerkers with 2 DPs at all time.
Most of the arguments you made in the OP are isolations of the bad without the good. For example, yes oblits are lower leadership and need to switch weapons, but now are cheaper, and most importantly, CAN BE T5. This is amazing. Oblits have been boosted simply because of that overall. No longer will they get constantly sniped by Lascannons. It's gotten to the point that noone actually ever shoots at my obliterators any more, cause a T5 2+ 2W monster is not worth shooting at with anything short of a Railgun/Vindicator.
The main things that got really nerfed is DPs and Bezerkers, and DPs are still very good in most situations.
I think people are complaining because they dont want variety, they want SW style undercosted obvious choices. That's bad codex design though.
Actually Obliterators aren't cheaper... they are still 70pts each. Yeah they can be T5 with MoN but IIRC in a previous edition they were T5 basic. Devastators take out obliterators all the time, a squad with 4 (or 5 in the case of long fangs) lascannons or plasma cannons will leave no trace of Oblits just like before. Plenty of stuff can still Insta-gibb them too.
Mono-god lists are over-costed still. And that 300pt uber DP you had planned dies horribly from a single wound from X Y Z weapons. A single shot can put the 'most prized champions of the chaos gods' on his arse for good... one shot... one...
Takes head shot to a whole new meaning
Oblits were 75 points base, T4 base in the previous book, the book written by Thorpe and Cavatore. I'm looking at their entry right now in the codex.
Oblits got buffed in terms of survivability since they can take MoN, and mobility due to SnP change; having to switch weapons is another matter however, it's a double edged sword.
I like this codex more than the last one. I still like the one before the last one significantly more than this one though. (Don't ask me to name what number editions they are, I don't know.) I enjoyed look at the new unit options, and wrote up several just for fun lists that utilized the new options. I would like these new unit options a lot more, though, if they didn't cost so much money. I would like to try out a full squad of warp talons, but I'm not spending that much money on them. I would love to try out some Forgefiends, but I'm certainly not paying that much money for them. If I could try out these new unit options without spending a truckload of money, I'd be more inclined to use them. But that's an issue with the pricing, not the codex, I suppose.
The only real issue I have with the codex is, and it may just be me, is that it seems to punish the player more and more for taking an undivided list. When I first started playing Chaos a couple editions ago, I decided I wanted to play Word Bearers, because they had a fascinating background, and were very unique. All chaos marines came with the mark of chaos undivided, and taking a mark on a unit made them better in some way, but at the cost of losing their re-roll to morale. Then marks started getting better, but being undivided didn't. Yeah, marked troops were a little more expensive, but it was always worth the cost. Now, in this recent codex, it's just glaringly obvious that an army is not supposed to be undivided. First off, I don't think the term "Mark of Chaos Undivided" is even in the codex anymore, they just get an icon of vengeance. Next, I always had an undivided demon prince lead my armies. For some reason or another, you can't have undivided demon princes now. I would think Word Bearers would have more demon princes than other chaos factions. Next, Obliterators, for example, were clearly designed to either have the mark of nurgle or tzeentch on them. I feel like I'm significantly handicapping my army for not putting the mark of slaanesh, or khorne, or nurgle on my raptors, or possessed, or warp talons.
To be honest, I don't really know what the answer is, and there's probably so few people who play an undivided legion that they won't bother making changes. I guess chaos has changed and they don't want people playing undivided anymore, but I would like some more benefits to being undivided. Maybe allow us to take an undivided mark for free or really cheap that lets us re-roll morale tests, then an icon that grants us d3 re-rolls a turn for having the god's favor, or maybe an extra special weapon upgrade or something. Just something that makes being undivided a little better. They wouldn't be as good at specific tasks as if they took the mark of a god, but they wouldn't be such significantly worse than a marked unit. But that's just my opinion, and like I said, I don't really know how to fix it. Just my musings.
AresX8 wrote: Oblits were 75 points base, T4 base in the previous book, the book written by Thorpe and Cavatore. I'm looking at their entry right now in the codex.
Oblits got buffed in terms of survivability since they can take MoN, and mobility due to SnP change; having to switch weapons is another matter however, it's a double edged sword.
Don't forget they're Ld8 (reduced from 9 in the last book and 10 the one before that) and lost Fearless. Punk one dude in a unit and they're running like Guardsmen. Not much has changed in terms of mobility, they're still slow.
So they got a 5pt discount and the ability to become T5 by becoming more expensive than they were before, but went from Fearless to Ld8 and use the same weapon two turns in a row. A rather painful nerf overall, as they were hardly overpowered before, just the preferred choice because all the other options were generally worse.
I REALLY wanted to like this book and had high hopes when i first got it.
For me the test has been playing games against an IG friend of mine. For 4 years i never lost a single game to him - admitedly his tactics blew but anyway...
I'm not saying none of it is my fault - my dice rolling has been pretty horrendous -
I think my previously trusty Iron Warriors have been put in my "apoc games" cupboard.
Praxiss: The new codex is certainly better as a whole than the old one. But if you use some specific units like infiltrating Chosen or Obliterators, the old 'dex was better.
The only real issue I have with the codex is, and it may just be me, is that it seems to punish the player more and more for taking an undivided list.
That's one of the biggest weaknesses of the book imo. It punishes you for playing an undivided list, but then makes sure that the only mono-god list that won't completely suck is the same old Nurgle list.
Also, to those who keep saying Warp Talons are GOOD at what they do - Really? Have you actually played with them? Serious question here. No sarcasm intended (ok maybe mild sarcasm intended) but I would really like to hear real stories of them successfully deep striking without scattering, blinding their intended targets AND making into the charge to cc without getting wiped out. The entire unit is based on 4th ed game mechanics and belongs in a codex where we have deep strike beacons that work without the need for one of our characters to do the hokey pokey and sacrifice a chicken before the deep striking unit arrives. EPIC fail imo.
I agree it does hurt a chaos undivided list. I am a little divided on it. I have been playing since rogue trader and I am a big fluff person, so as the chaos gods are always fighting against each other to vie for power and in second edition most things you could only take one faction or bits of another faction with a main one faction (example Orks, Chaos, Eldar), that I thought the meshing of everything that started in 3rd edition was not cool. It made it a lot easier to get the best of everything. When you had to choose factions you got their strong points but also their weak, so everyone was a little bit more even. Example if you took Goff, you didn't get access to lootas as they were blue skulls, Bad Moons had access to more stuff because they had more teeth, Evil Sunz had more vehicles, etc.
That being said, things are not written that way any more. If this is how the new codexes are all going to be, then I am fine with that. However, I know Matt Ward and my guess is that Dark Angels will be the second coming, making this codex really, really bad and overpriced. I guess we will see. Even if this codex is a way of things to come, it will make Necrons the king of 6th Edition.
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: I agree it does hurt a chaos undivided list. I am a little divided on it.
Back on topic: Necrons will get pushed down a peg if a Codex actually gets useful AA, as opposed to one flyer and a static infantry unit that'll get shot to pieces before they have a chance to attack enemy fliers.
If you are comparing the new Chaos codex to IG then your always going to be disappointed. Nothing, not even GK and Necrons come close to IG's OPness. Of course you'd expect GW to continue to codex creep but unfortunately they didn't.
Overall the CSM is alright not great though. I see my Chaos force as painting and modeling project that takes a bit of tactics to pull off a win other than a auto win army.
Nakor The BlueRider wrote: If you are comparing the new Chaos codex to IG then your always going to be disappointed. Nothing, not even GK and Necrons come close to IG's OPness.
The metagame and tournament results of the last few years would disagree with that assertion, unless you're obligingly deploying in neat little clumps in the open and your opponent is always getting first turn and you never bother to advance...
Anybody that is crying over the new Chaos Codex needs to learn to play. I would suggest studying the codex
in more detail, and getting lot's of games in. Also, it would greatly benefit CSM players to also begin collecting
Daemons for various combinations between the two books.
It is awesomely good if you know how to use it. Especially against other power armour armies.
Firstborn wrote: Anybody that is crying over the new Chaos Codex needs to learn to play. I would suggest studying the codex
in more detail, and getting lot's of games in. Also, it would greatly benefit CSM players to also begin collecting
Daemons for various combinations between the two books.
It is awesomely good if you know how to use it. Especially against other power armour armies.
It is always easy for someone who could be 16 for all we know, with 76 posts on here to brag how good they are... Joking aside, there are plenty of us that know how to play here, unless you are insinuating that you are better than anyone that has posted on here. I am not saying this and I have been playing since GW threw out rogue trader as kind of a joke of their fantasy game. Talking smack is easy. What do you do in a game that makes you such a winner.
In addition. If you have to take another codex ally to consistently win, then I do not believe it is a good codex, if it can not stand on its own. Necron, IG, Gray Knights can easily do this. Eldar, Tau, Sisters can not easily do this.
I like Chaos as well, but I think with an old codex it does just fine by itself. It is not so easy with the new CSM codex. I like that it is not All Abbadon all the time.... lol
I like this codex. I think its a great codex. I do not think its the OMG this is awesome sauce codex that a lot of people were hoping for.
I like that my fearless guys stay fearless. I like that my MOS guys stay Slannesh all the time and not just because of some damn banner. I like that I can get (albeit with allies) actual damonettes to use for my daemons instead of those lesser daemons junk.
I like the Heldrake, I like the fiends (but don't use them). I do wish the DP was cheaper in points, but I'm not that bothered by it only being T5 with no EW. Thats how my 3.5 ed. DP was, so nothing new here. Yeah I wish the cult special weapons could be carried over to marked CSM units, but your not going to have everything. I like that spawn are now usefull. I like that my bikers are once again usefull. I do wish there was more veriety in Daemon weapons and/or deamonic wargear gifts.
Its been a long time since I played my EC (totally ignored 4th ed codex). So its nice that the army actually plays like I designed it to so many years ago.
Firstborn wrote: Anybody that is crying over the new Chaos Codex needs to learn to play. I would suggest studying the codex
in more detail, and getting lot's of games in. Also, it would greatly benefit CSM players to also begin collecting
Daemons for various combinations between the two books.
It is awesomely good if you know how to use it. Especially against other power armour armies.
Way to not read the thread and be unnecessarily condescending at the same time!
The issue isn't that it can't be played with. It's that fundamentally it's a weak effort that feels less well built to 6th edition than some older armies, and doesn't resolve or even address many of the issues people had with the last book. It still has internal major internal balance issues (they've just changed *some* of them up a bit), still has lots of internal inconsistencies (e.g. Slaanesh Lords can't get Sonic Weapons, Plague Terminators don't have FNP, etc), and is probably the least impressive army update since 4th edition along with Tyranids.
Yes you can build a rapeface army with it, pretty much everyone can pick out that baleflamer heldrakes, daemon allies, and plague marine lists are really really good. That's not the point.
Firstborn wrote: Anybody that is crying over the new Chaos Codex needs to learn to play. I would suggest studying the codex
in more detail, and getting lot's of games in. Also, it would greatly benefit CSM players to also begin collecting
Daemons for various combinations between the two books.
It is awesomely good if you know how to use it. Especially against other power armour armies.
Newsflash brah, all codices are good "if you know how to use them."
Have fun winning the majority of your games against 12 year olds.
Whereas the new one is a flying monstrous creature and as such should be able to easily stay clear of any blobs. That, conveniently enough, also makes it immune to blast weapons.
Yeah it's about 200 base (195 if slaaneshi) if you're a FMC, and that's without other upgrades. And let's not pretend that it's super difficult to ground a FMC either.
Furthermore, for the price of a single Daemon Prince with wings, powered armor, and a single mastery level, you could almost buy 2 of the old 4th edition Daemon Princes which conveniently had Eternal Warrior so that they didn't completely suck.
As it is, for their price they're still too fragile.
Make it Nurgle for a 3+ Cover Save (hell, even if you don't...), give it a black mace, and no mastery level?
I don't understand the problem.
Sure, you can't sweep, but hey, you'll almost always survive to get to the enemy.
They got rid of Lash, so, Chaos players every cried.
Is this codex the next Cron or GK, no. Do I think there are more than one solid list that can really mess up the "average" list out there and be super competitive in a tournament? Yes. I really do think this Codex is underrated and people need to do some hard core tournament play testing with either a fast attack or heavy weapon specialized list to see its real beauty. Right now my CSM list would be the one I'd take to a GT.
Firstborn wrote: I have had nothing but success with the new CSM book. I tabled a veteran tourney player running a Coteaz Henchmen build with it last night. I can also easily compete with hardcore Ork lists now, something that was an act of futility with the old book. Vanilla marines, blood angels, and space wolves better just stay home.
I bet a lot of you armchair generals bitching about the book, haven't played any games with it. You have read the codex and think you understand it inside and out. You don't.
And by the way, you don't need Daemon allies to win with CSM. Not by a long shot. They are just the icing on the cake, and an awesome option that seems to make loyalist players jealous. That's okay, CSM are Space Marines, just 100x cooler.
Again, way not to read the comments and come off as a condescending TFG.
You keep missing the point, or are intentionally avoiding it. It's not that it can't be a powerful book or that you can't win games with it, it's that fundamentally it's a half-assed update that left many of the major problems with the last book intact and created as many new ones as it fixed (Hooray Raptors are good...but now Oblits run like guardsmen and Defilers are incomprehensibly *more* expensive while Thousand Sons still suck!), and plays more like its previous incarnation than any codex released since 4th edition has.
TL;DR (since it's apparently needed): Almost all the changes and new stuff could have been done in 2 pages in White Dwarf instead. Not what people want out a $50 book that's replacing one of the most controversial and disliked codex's ever released.
Nakor The BlueRider wrote: I see my Chaos force as painting and modeling project that takes a bit of tactics to pull off a win other than a auto win army.
Mission acomplished then.
There are of course internal and external balance issues, this is after all a GW codex, but its still perfectly functional, more so than the old one IMO.
I've been trying different builds, only played 3 games with my army, but I've won 2 and lost 1. My loss was part of a 2v2, and me and a DE player got killed by a 2x Dreadknight terminator list and BADC blob.
I like it. 2x helldrakes and 2x Dakka fiends backed up by typhus, zombies, PM and bikers. Or terminators, depending.
Firstborn wrote: I have had nothing but success with the new CSM book. I tabled a veteran tourney player running a Coteaz Henchmen build with it last night. I can also easily compete with hardcore Ork lists now, something that was an act of futility with the old book. Vanilla marines, blood angels, and space wolves better just stay home.
I bet a lot of you armchair generals bitching about the book, haven't played any games with it. You have read the codex and think you understand it inside and out. You don't.
And by the way, you don't need Daemon allies to win with CSM. Not by a long shot. They are just the icing on the cake, and an awesome option that seems to make loyalist players jealous. That's okay, CSM are Space Marines, just 100x cooler.
Even a lame horse can get lucky once in a while.. lol
I still think that this is not a cake or OP codex, and with a codex like necrons out there it is a hard battle fought. I don't think last edition was that impossible against Orks honestly. Is it a playable codex, yes, is it ultra competitive - maybe but it has to be weilded very carefully, it is not forgiving - like Eldar (but they are playing a 4th edition dex). I have seen a great Tau player do amazing things with his Tau, did he win the Tourney, no but he finished 7th out of 30 not bad. Now take a more novice player with Necrons or IG, they will have an easier time IMO winning and being more competitive than if they ran one of the more balanced codex out there. It is GW I know, but if everyone in GW talked with eachother and made more balanced codexes, we wouldn't have anything to complain about.. lol
You ignorance is quite amazing, 1.) I bet my adult teeth are far older than you , 2.) I play competitively and play local tournies at least once a month and in a league as well. Before you go off half cocked calling people armchair generals put your money where your mouth is, instead of being TFG. My record for 6th edition is there for anyone to see with each of my posts. Where are yours? The real numbers
You have given no specifics, no counter-arguments, no rational responses, added nothing to the conversation but "L2P nubcakes", which is ultimately the last refuge of those who have nothing to add or know nothing but how to rage on XBOX Live like 12 year olds.
and act like I am an expert player because I play in a tourney once in a month.
Welcome to ignore.
Look out, he plays a tournament once a month...we got a badass over here.
Firstborn wrote: I have had nothing but success with the new CSM book. I tabled a veteran tourney player running a Coteaz Henchmen build with it last night. I can also easily compete with hardcore Ork lists now, something that was an act of futility with the old book. Vanilla marines, blood angels, and space wolves better just stay home.
I bet a lot of you armchair generals bitching about the book, haven't played any games with it. You have read the codex and think you understand it inside and out. You don't.
And by the way, you don't need Daemon allies to win with CSM. Not by a long shot. They are just the icing on the cake, and an awesome option that seems to make loyalist players jealous. That's okay, CSM are Space Marines, just 100x cooler.
Even a lame horse can get lucky once in a while.. lol
I still think that this is not a cake or OP codex, and with a codex like necrons out there it is a hard battle fought. I don't think last edition was that impossible against Orks honestly. Is it a playable codex, yes, is it ultra competitive - maybe but it has to be weilded very carefully, it is not forgiving - like Eldar (but they are playing a 4th edition dex). I have seen a great Tau player do amazing things with his Tau, did he win the Tourney, no but he finished 7th out of 30 not bad. Now take a more novice player with Necrons or IG, they will have an easier time IMO winning and being more competitive than if they ran one of the more balanced codex out there. It is GW I know, but if everyone in GW talked with eachother and made more balanced codexes, we wouldn't have anything to complain about.. lol
You ignorance is quite amazing, 1.) I bet my adult teeth are far older than you , 2.) I play competitively and play local tournies at least once a month and in a league as well. Before you go off half cocked calling people armchair generals put your money where your mouth is, instead of being TFG. My record for 6th edition is there for anyone to see with each of my posts. Where are yours? The real numbers
I do my talking on the table. I don't talk out of my a$$ on a public forum, and act like I am an expert player because I play in a tourney once in a month.
Welcome to ignore.
LOL There are so many things I could say to that. I really don't think that you read the posts. I did state earlier that I was not the best player, but I am a good player. I was just countering your 'armchair general' comment. If I was talking out my derrier I would certainly post a better record. Something that you continue to avoid, even though you are such an expert. Why don't you do us all a favor and stop posting on here or post some useful and constructive comments, instead of just slamming people.
Something like - I think this codex is the best thing since sliced bread because............................. Instead of it is a great codex and anyone who thinks otherwise are armchair generals.. lol Most people on here voice there complaints or compliments but follow it with ' I like Oblits bebecause they have Mark of Nurgle Now' or 'I don't like oblits because they are not fearless now'
You have given no specifics, no counter-arguments, no rational responses, added nothing to the conversation but "L2P nubcakes", which is ultimately the last refuge of those who have nothing to add or know nothing but how to rage on XBOX Live like 12 year olds.
and act like I am an expert player because I play in a tourney once in a month.
Welcome to ignore.
Look out, he plays a tournament once a month...we got a badass over here.
Many of us play just as often if not moreso.
Welcome to reported
There are two sides to the bitching.
1 - The CSM codex is not effective on the table. [This is utter hogwash and I have had enough of it]
2 - The CSM book was a rushed effort and has internal problems. Mutilators, wargear options, etc.
For option #2; okay we get it. You post the same bitching rants about the CSM book in every one of these threads that come up. I am tired
of reading it every week. Complaining about it isn't going to change anything. Honestly, GW doesn't care what your feedback is. It is what it
is. If you like it use it, if not oh well.
How is 1 hogwash, have you stated how... hmmm nope
No one is forcing you to read this post or even comment on it...
1 - The CSM codex is not effective on the table. [This is utter hogwash and I have had enough of it]
2 - The CSM book was a rushed effort and has internal problems. Mutilators, wargear options, etc.
For option #2; okay we get it. You post the same bitching rants about the CSM book in every one of these threads that come up. I am tired
of reading it every week. Complaining about it isn't going to change anything. Honestly, GW doesn't care what your feedback is. It is what it
is. If you like it use it, if not oh well.
Nobody is forcing you to read or comment on such threads. You are reading and engaging in the situation by entirely your own will. You have to choose to click on the link and choose to read the thread.
If you are tried of reading it...don't? Coming and posting what amounts to nothing but "L2P" posts certainly isn't going to do anything but get you flak.
And we'll continue talking about it because, well, that's what internet message boards about plastic toy soldier games are for.
AresX8 wrote: Oblits were 75 points base, T4 base in the previous book, the book written by Thorpe and Cavatore. I'm looking at their entry right now in the codex.
Oblits got buffed in terms of survivability since they can take MoN, and mobility due to SnP change; having to switch weapons is another matter however, it's a double edged sword.
and loss of fearless.
the weapon changes suck but at least you get assault cannons
AresX8 wrote: Oblits were 75 points base, T4 base in the previous book, the book written by Thorpe and Cavatore. I'm looking at their entry right now in the codex.
Oblits got buffed in terms of survivability since they can take MoN, and mobility due to SnP change; having to switch weapons is another matter however, it's a double edged sword.
and loss of fearless.
the weapon changes suck but at least you get assault cannons
The mark is cool and the non-fearless is not good, but I found with squads of 2 and veterans of the long war (which for 3 points each is ridiculous) makes them allright, even if they fail morale, and I have done this multiple times, at least they get their normal LD to rally which fortunately I have always been able to get
The alternating weapons I thought would really suck, but honestly with the weapons available I have not really found it hindering... I have hardly used the assault cannons, but I usually use lascannon and plasma cannon at range and TL plasma or Melta or flamer when close in.... I still run them in almost every game.. I thought I would really love Mark of Tzeench, but I find myself almost always using mark of Nurgle for the toughness buff. Cheers all
The CSM codex is the first codex of the new edition, the overall impression seems to be 'better than the last one', and the next codex in the queue is a loyalist marine codex by Matt Ward.
Anyone want to take bets on what the popularity of the CSM codex will be a year from now?
Nah Matt Ward never writes anything that is broken or really good. *cough Cough* Necrons *cough* Grey Knight *cough* Blood Angels *cough, cough*... umm sorry had a Ward stuck in my throat.
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: Nah Matt Ward never writes anything that is broken or really good. *cough Cough* Necrons *cough* Grey Knight *cough* Blood Angels *cough, cough*... umm sorry had a Ward stuck in my throat.
And Grey Knights is the only thing that comes remotely close to the grand-daddy -up; 7th edition Daemons of Chaos!
Vaktathi wrote: That's true, 40k hasn't had anything near that busted since 2nd edition Eldar.
3.5 chaos
4.0 Skimmerspam.
GK are a pale comparison to what either of those two could put out.
Not like 7th was balanced by a longshot, before daemons was Gav thorpes Vampire Counts and the Dark Elves, which were both broken in their own ways to the point if you weren't playing the army yourself, you were out of luck when it came down to it, Daemons just completed the Triforce of Pain as the top overshadowing both.
Vaktathi wrote: That's true, 40k hasn't had anything near that busted since 2nd edition Eldar.
3.5 chaos
4.0 Skimmerspam.
GK are a pale comparison to what either of those two could put out.
Not like 7th was balanced by a longshot, Before daemons was Gav thorpes Vampire Counts and the Dark Elves, which were both broken in their own ways to the point if you weren't playing the army, you were out of luck when it came to magic, Daemons just completed the Triforce of Pain as the top.
Hrm, GK's aren't much behind 3.5 CSM and 4E Skimmerspam, they were also pretty bad, but not near 7E fantasy daemons or 2E Eldar (which pretty much by themselves caused GW to reinvent the game with 3rd ed).
PMs are well worth the 1 point increase for the plague knife. They are also excellent units that are even more useful in today's meta of heavy infantry armies.
FNP has gotten better with T5 models as now they get FNP from TH/SS terminator or LC/ML shots.
Bolters/PGs have gotten better, as they can now move and shoot at full range.
Vaktathi wrote: That's true, 40k hasn't had anything near that busted since 2nd edition Eldar.
3.5 chaos
4.0 Skimmerspam.
GK are a pale comparison to what either of those two could put out.
Not like 7th was balanced by a longshot, Before daemons was Gav thorpes Vampire Counts and the Dark Elves, which were both broken in their own ways to the point if you weren't playing the army, you were out of luck when it came to magic, Daemons just completed the Triforce of Pain as the top.
Hrm, GK's aren't much behind 3.5 CSM and 4E Skimmerspam, they were also pretty bad, but not near 7E fantasy daemons or 2E Eldar (which pretty much by themselves caused GW to reinvent the game with 3rd ed).
I'll give you that when warpspiders came out they were bad ass, Harlies were really awesome in 1st edition, but I my Orks held there own in 1st and second edition (they could shoot back then, back when Ghazghul had a BS of 6 and all Orks had a 3 except for stormboyz which in 1st has BS 4) . I had some friends that were really good with squats, IG and Chaos back then too. But I do admit Eldar were bad ass in 2nd...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
labmouse42 wrote: [quote=Eiluj The Farseer 493154 5051831 cc1cf335dda538c50a00602dea73608f.jpgplague marines more expensive,
PMs are well worth the 1 point increase for the plague knife. They are also excellent units that are even more useful in today's meta of heavy infantry armies.
FNP has gotten better with T5 models as now they get FNP from TH/SS terminator or LC/ML shots.
Bolters/PGs have gotten better, as they can now move and shoot at full range.
So overall, PMs are excellent models.
I agree, so far in 6th I have never left home without them for a game. I have always loved Tsons, but they are more of a fluffy list than a real competitive list. I think Slaanesh got a boost this edition as Noise Marines are pretty cheap and the Icon of Excess gives FNP - making a squad of biker Slaanesh bad ass. Their mounts are great to with Outflank and Acute senses given to them as well. Sure they are not T6 bikers, but T5 is still good except for demolisher cannons and Rail guns...
Vaktathi wrote: That's true, 40k hasn't had anything near that busted since 2nd edition Eldar.
3.5 chaos
4.0 Skimmerspam.
GK are a pale comparison to what either of those two could put out.
Not like 7th was balanced by a longshot, before daemons was Gav thorpes Vampire Counts and the Dark Elves, which were both broken in their own ways to the point if you weren't playing the army yourself, you were out of luck when it came down to it, Daemons just completed the Triforce of Pain as the top overshadowing both.
3.5 Chaos only had 1 near auto-win list due to how broken the Siren minor power was. IW's were mean yes, but if you had proper amounts of terrain you had the cover to weather it for a bit.
4.0 Skimmer spam was nasty, but enough S6/7 spam knocked it down. Only Tyranids were really screwed vs that one. IG & CSM's laughed at it since they could spam autocannons, while anyone who could spam asscans would eventually rend the list to death.
Grey Knights in 5th required specific counters, making it pretty much impossible for non-GK armies to build a solid TAC's that could handle the very likely possibilty of facing all three of the main builds in a single event. (Draigowing, Purifyer spam, Henchmen spam)
Added on top, Daemons and Tyranids were unplayable vs GK's, while Orks got shoehorned into the Kanwall since anything else would fall flat vs Purifyer spam.
7th ed went VC's ---> Daemons of Chaos ---> Dark Elves actually. (March/May/August releases)
VC's only enjoyed a brief time at the top, with the only viable build afterwards being the Graveguard Deathstar + Ghoul spam. Dark Elves, Lizardmen & Skaven could all deal with VC's, while Daemons just curbstomped everyone without even trying!
Luckily, if the new Chaos Marine codex is indeed the new precident, we should hopefully see an edition of 40k where all armies are fairly level in overall power against eachother!
Of corse, the real testing point will be the forthcoming DA book. If it's full of OTT spamy crap, then Chaos Marine players may well have a legitiment beef about being 'well balanced' for only a scarce few months. (or rather, it will simply prove that Ward is and always has been the most major problem with the game's balance issues! )
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: [I agree, so far in 6th I have never left home without them for a game. I... Sure they are not T6 bikers, but T5 is still good except for demolisher cannons and Rail guns...
I've been using some in test games, and have found excellent success with them. I've been bringing 50 of them and holing mid-field.
The T5 plus FNP is excellent. In the last game I played, I had a 10 man squad get assaulted by 10 TH/SS terminators. I took 12 wounds, and by some crazy piece of luck, I managed to FNP save 10 of them. My friend was boggled, and while he did eventually manage to wipe the PM squad, it took 3 more rounds of combat.
I have had the same thing happen to me. I played a game of the relic and used one squad to keep a squad of termies busy while another squad retreated to my side of the board with the relic. It worked very well.
I find that the new codex is quite competitive. No not overpowering but effective.
The frustration is the marked troops -berzerkers noise maines, 1000 sons, plague marins - are truly not that competitive because they are overcosted. However if you go with basic CSM as a core you will find you have a large number of troops with decent firepower.
The other disappointment for me is that the vehicles and characters are rather lackluster. This is either through cost or effectiveness - they just don't excite me.
So as long as you look at a core of CSM, Havocs and perhaps chosen or bikers, they are a very lethal force with numbers and firepower and even decent CC ability as an option.
I agree the elites that used to be troops are a little overcosted, except for plague marines - i think for what you get and a poison blade and bolt pitol, they are very durable and decent at holding objectives, taking out vehicles if given upgrades and in CC (more of a tarpit). I love T-sons, but competitively meh. Though this weekend am in a tourney for Adepti practice team, so he is playing Ahriman and tsons and I am playing plague marines and lord. We shall see how we do... If you are in Beaver Dam you should come to the tourney, if you are not already.. Cheers man.
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: I agree the elites that used to be troops are a little overcosted, except for plague marines - i
+1 to this.
A good way to balance the durability of a unit is to compare point-for-point its ability to absorb fire in comparison to other units. In other words, if 20 bolter shots will kill 1 plague marine, but kill 6.6 orks. A total of 24 points of PM will die, yet 39.6 points of orks will die from the same firepower.
Formula Your base resilience (BR) is based upon the following formula. Using this to can determine how many shots it takes to kill one model.
(To Hit) * (To Wound) * (Fail Save) * (Fail FNP) * (Shots Fired) = 1
Divide this value by the cost of the model to get its resilience-per-point (RPP)
(Base Resilience) / (Model Cost) * 100
Just make an excel spreadsheet to do this for you.
Results Using this you get the following RPP values from MEQ bolter shots
Plague Marine....84.6
Grey Hunter........60
Ork.....................50
Terminator..........45
Using this you get the following RPP values from MEQ AutoCannon shots
Grey Hunter........36
Plague Marine....33.75
Ork.....................30
Terminator..........27
This is the RPP result from Melta Gun/PG shots
Ork.....................30
TH/SS termie......13.5
Grey Hunter........12
Plague Marine....11.25
Terminator..........6.75
What does it mean? PMs are extremely durable on a RPP scale from normal attacks. They are probably the best RPP unit in the game from STR 4 attacks that give normal saves.
Even when shot by weapons that deny saves, they are close to TH/SS termies and GH on RPP values. Even when shot by high STR weapons that negate their toughness advantage, PMs are still excellent on a RPP value.
Maybe I am not following the math, but how is an Ork getting hit by a melta shot better than termies? Or am I looking at the numbers wrong - do you want a lower number. Orks are T4 no save from bolter? Sorry if not quite getting it..
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: Maybe I am not following the math, but how is an Ork getting hit by a melta shot better than termies? Or am I looking at the numbers wrong - do you want a lower number. Orks are T4 no save from bolter? Sorry if not quite getting it..
Its Point-Per-Resiliance
Shooting a melta gun at an ork kills a 6 point model. Shooting the melta gun at a MANZ kills a 40 point model.
Sure the ork dies easier, but your RPP value is much better. IE, you want them to shoot meltas at boyz and not MANZ
DAaddict wrote: I find that the new codex is quite competitive. No not overpowering but effective.
The frustration is the marked troops -berzerkers noise maines, 1000 sons, plague marins - are truly not that competitive because they are overcosted. However if you go with basic CSM as a core you will find you have a large number of troops with decent firepower.
The other disappointment for me is that the vehicles and characters are rather lackluster. This is either through cost or effectiveness - they just don't excite me.
So as long as you look at a core of CSM, Havocs and perhaps chosen or bikers, they are a very lethal force with numbers and firepower and even decent CC ability as an option.
I disagree with that the cult guys are over costed. Its just that the things you are comparing them to are undercosted. You can't tell me that a 17 point noise marine is overcosted when comparing it to a bolter tac marine. This book was obviously not subjected to the Ward Codex creep. So don't compare the guys to the cheep powerstuff of the power houses, but look at the other mid to highish range codexs and you will see stuff pointed about right where it should be.
I disagree with that the cult guys are over costed. Its just that the things you are comparing them to are undercosted. You can't tell me that a 17 point noise marine is overcosted when comparing it to a bolter tac marine. This book was obviously not subjected to the Ward Codex creep. So don't compare the guys to the cheep powerstuff of the power houses, but look at the other mid to highish range codexs and you will see stuff pointed about right where it should be.
That is exactly the point... A sternguard costs 25, provides 2 CC attacks, and has the bolter ammo to be flexible to every situation. It stands heads above a tactical marine and costs a lot but is still valuable... Chaos specials are very specialized versions of sternguard and cost effectively as much but aren't flexible to the needs.
I am not saying people should never take them but you cannot build a 4th ed codex named marine army and be competitive. You can still have a specialist unit but you would be a fool to build a dedicated 1000 sons or berzerker army.
Now noise marines and plague marines are debatable but you are giving up a lot in numbers to do it. Pure plague marines may work against some armies but against hoards, it is going to be behind the 8 ball in comparison to regular CSM. The only advantage is fearless, and that can be mitigated by VoTLW and attached commanders. Noise marines can provide a lot of firepower but that gets cut down by the sheer cost.
DAaddict wrote: I find that the new codex is quite competitive. No not overpowering but effective.
The frustration is the marked troops -berzerkers noise maines, 1000 sons, plague marins - are truly not that competitive because they are overcosted. However if you go with basic CSM as a core you will find you have a large number of troops with decent firepower.
The other disappointment for me is that the vehicles and characters are rather lackluster. This is either through cost or effectiveness - they just don't excite me.
So as long as you look at a core of CSM, Havocs and perhaps chosen or bikers, they are a very lethal force with numbers and firepower and even decent CC ability as an option.
I disagree with that the cult guys are over costed. Its just that the things you are comparing them to are undercosted. You can't tell me that a 17 point noise marine is overcosted when comparing it to a bolter tac marine. This book was obviously not subjected to the Ward Codex creep. So don't compare the guys to the cheep powerstuff of the power houses, but look at the other mid to highish range codexs and you will see stuff pointed about right where it should be.
Except the tac marine is overcosted and the space marine codex is a mid-tier ward codex.
Noise marines are actually priced right, it's just the sonic guns are overpriced, alongside the whole issue behind the blastmaster.
I really enjoy the Chaos codex, especially as I play more games and get a feel for how things play out in practice rather than simply looking at how things work on paper.
There are some definite misfires in the codex that come mind and include Mutilators, Warp Talons, the cost of the Daemon Prince, lack of Land Raider options (can't even upgrade the turret), and some other things.
To someone who says that Terminators got nerfed, I ask how? Let me point out a couple of things:
• CSM do not get Storm Bolters, but are the cheapest for a unit of five at 157 points, and that's with combi-bolters and power weapons.
• If you take it a step further and give CSM Terminators power fists and the champion a power weapon (a la Loyalists), they are 185, 15 points cheaper than Black Templar, Blood Angels, and Space Marines.
• If you give them marks, it will drive their price up, but on the other hand, Loyalists can't get T5 or a 4++ save.
I won't argue Combi-bolter vs. Storm Bolter as I personally believe that the SB is a better gun...we have what we have and have to deal with it.
As a CSM player, I'm glad that we didn't get a GK or Necrons level codex. I don't want CSM having the wide spread hate that those two armies get. I wish there were a few things done differently, but I'm happy with my upper mid-tier army, which is where I feel that they belong.
Of course, Dark Angels will come out and I'll cry a little Nurgle tear.
And better durability. Lets not forget that they are tougher-point for point than CSM vs hoards.
Oh, and in assault. Lets not forget that PMs are better in assault than CSMs due to the poisoned weapons.
And shooting. Don't forget that you can have 2 PGs for every 5 PMs.
PMs are not quite as good as GHs, but their close.
I was not speaking about PM but about all the named marines... However I question the value of even PM. 5 PM with 2 PG is going to cost you 145 Almost for the same cost I can get 10 naked CSM with 2 PG. Of course I lose the survivability but also - extrapolating out the core... If you fill all 6 troop slots, you have 30 plague marines where as I have 60 CSM with the same number of plasma shots. (870 vs 960 pts) I have said it is questionable which is better in this case (CSM vs PM). My point it is almost a slam dunk with the other 3 which is the better buy. The only point you have is fearless in the other 3 that you can hold over a standard CSM squad and that can be mitigated by giving them VoTLW.
Terminators are generally more expensive than they were previously, unless loading up on lots of powerfists and the like (if you didn't kit out the entire squad with them last edition, you won't notice any savings), and the Champion pays absurd prices for wargear upgrades for no discernible reason.
Vaktathi wrote: Terminators are generally more expensive than they were previously, unless loading up on lots of powerfists and the like (if you didn't kit out the entire squad with them last edition, you won't notice any savings), and the Champion pays absurd prices for wargear upgrades for no discernible reason.
The fact it costs 30 points for the Champion to carry Lightning Claws while it only costs a basic Terminator 7 points, a 27 point increase over what? An extra attack and the Champions of Chaos special rule which isn't really a bonus in this situation. Honestly the armoury just seems lazy , and the fact all models the same price for upgrades makes balance hard to achieve for the codex. I
kcwm wrote: There are some definite misfires in the codex that come mind and include Mutilators, Warp Talons,
I've seen a few units that look 'meh' on paper, but are actually much better than their profile suggests. I've not played with them Talons/Mutilators yet, so I don't know what they are like in practice. Ill reserve judgement until I've given them a fair shake.
kcwm wrote: The cost of the Daemon Prince, lack of Land Raider options (can't even upgrade the turret)
DPs are not bad. They are costed so that if you don't give them wings, your wasting your points. DPs can take things like 'black mace' for a dramatic increase in power. I've used DPs a number of time, and the trick is that they have to stay in combat. If you can keep them moving from one target to another with as few turns out of cover as possible their pretty good. I've seen one DP wipe out 2 ICs and 2 GH squads before.
Land raiders have a ton of options. Dirge casters -- yes please! Dirge casters are probably the best vehicle upgrade in the game today -- especially with the increase of daemon flamers.
If your wondering why there is only one flavor of LR in the CSM codex, its because the other varients were designed after the Horus Heresy. That's why you see autocannons on CSM termies and combi-bolters.
kcwm wrote: • CSM do not get Storm Bolters, but are the cheapest for a unit of five at 157 points, and that's with combi-bolters and power weapons.
Comparing CSM terminators to C:SM terminators is like comparing Ken and Ryu from street fighter. On the surface they look a lot alike, but they have very subtle differences.
Point for point, 31 points for a 2+/5++ model with a combi-bolter, power weapon, and relentless is not bad. If you compare its durability to a CSM its actually pretty decent.
As a CSM you don't want to give all your terminators power fists. You only need a few PFs in a squad to do the heavy work of killing vehicles. Every model sporting one is a waste.
SBs are better than combi-bolters. The difference is that combi-bolters can be combi-melta, combi-plasma, or combi-flamers. This lets you use your CSM terminators as a suicide squad that can destroy land raiders, or they can target specific units -- like going after a T-fire cannon.
As you mentioned marks can also help.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DAaddict wrote: [ However I question the value of even PM. 5 PM with 2 PG is going to cost you 145 Almost for the same cost I can get 10 naked CSM with 2 PG. Of course I lose the survivability but also - extrapolating out the core... If you fill all 6 troop slots, you have 30 plague marines where as I have 60 CSM with the same number of plasma shots. (870 vs 960 pts) I have said it is questionable which is better in this case (CSM vs PM). My point it is almost a slam dunk with the other 3 which is the better buy. The only point you have is fearless in the other 3 that you can hold over a standard CSM squad and that can be mitigated by giving them VoTLW.
Those are excellent points.
Look up a few posts in this thread and I talk about the point-per-resiliance. 10 PMs will last longer than 18 CSM from bolter fire.
Is it really fair to compare the naked CSM with the PM? They fill very different roles. PM are excellent for mid-range control. They are resistant enough so they can take the hits and decent enough to hold their own when assaulted. Naked CSM will get rolled over if they try that role. Naked CSM and cultists excel at objective control on the far side of the board.
Also I don't suggest a choice between 30 PMs or 60 CSM. 30 PMs is not enough and can be overwhelmed. You need at 40-50 to be durable enough to control the board with no problems. It means less PGs per model, but they still do the job nicely. I speak that from personal experience with games thus far so YMMV.
I've not tested noise marines yet. On paper they seem decent for 17 points a pop compared to normal CSM or C:SM. Fearless and +1 int is not bad for 2 points over a equally equipped CSM.
A lot of what you chose out of the CSM codex would go with style. I like focusing a lot of points in one area and being hard to shift. I like units that are multi-taskers, and can shoot or assault as needed. I like models that are durable so they take a huge amount of effort to shift. PMs fit my playstyle.
labmouse42 wrote:Land raiders have a ton of options. Dirge casters -- yes please! Dirge casters are probably the best vehicle upgrade in the game today -- especially with the increase of daemon flamers.
If your wondering why there is only one flavor of LR in the CSM codex, its because the other varients were designed after the Horus Heresy. That's why you see autocannons on CSM termies and combi-bolters.
When I mentioned the lack of Land Raider options, I didn't meant vehicle upgrades, I meant variations. The Crusader/Redeemer variant might have been created after the Horus Heresy, but that isn't to say that Chaos has been sitting idle. I completely understand WHY we only have one variation from a fluff perspective, but if we have new creations like the Forge/Maulerfiend and Heldrake, certainly fluff could have been created to explain why there are new additions to the CSM repertoire.
Afterall, it IS GW's world...they can create whatever fluff they need. In fact, they came up with fluff for a number of units that didn't exist before, so why not come up with the fluff for a CSM variant on the LR? It wouldn't need to be the same as a Crusader/Redeemer...just the ability to have more capacity would have been great.
To speak to your point about not giving Terminators all power fists, I don't, but for the sake of comparing Ken to Ryu, it's all we have. Loyalists Terminators outside of the Sergeants can't take power weapons, so we compare the closest things we can. Which brings me to my next point...
Vaktathi wrote:Terminators are generally more expensive than they were previously...
Not so much. In the fourth edition codex, Terminators were 30 points apiece and a Champion was 10 points more. So, you're looking at 150 or 160 with a Champ. For the same unit, it's now 157. How is that generally more expensive?
If you wanted to give them all powerfists, that's 200 or 210 points. Again, how are the new edition Terminators generally more expensive than they were before? 185 is less than 200.
The Champion over pays for some of the upgrades when replacing their combi-bolter. The combi-weapons? They were 10 points in the old codex but 7 for the champ in the new one. The melee upgrades when replacing your combi-bolter? Of course they are expensive...you're generally going to get a 2nd melee attack out of it, which can be huge (I do now want to model a dual power weapon Terminator Champion). Replacing the Champions power weapon with a lightning claw, power fist, or chain fist is actually cheaper for Terminators than other models in the codex (25 points for a power fist on a power armor champion vs 10 for the Terminator). Yeah, those prices are REAL absurd.
Ok, so that last sentence was a bit overly sarcastic. My point is that people complain because their perception is skewed. The point that Vaktathi made about the prices being absurd is one of them. If you look at the first section of the Terminator Upgrades, you're going to say its overpriced unless you see that that is for replacing your combi-bolter. They are so caught up in the idea that CSM players were screwed that they don't see how it really plays out. In some aspects, they are absolutely correct...the Daemon Prince comes to mind. Yes, it was too cheap for what it did, but now it's too expensive for what it does. Terminators weren't nerfed, especially when you compare them to 4th edition CSM and current edition Loyalist chapters.
I'm not apologizing for the codex. I agree when people say it feels like the 4th edition 'dex with some minor tweaks. I still feel like I'm playing that army...just that I have some different toys to play with.
My few examples are by no means exhaustive or even how I'd model them. I wanted a quick comparison to similar units and I was able to do that. Of course, CSM doesn't get cyclone missile launchers or autocannons. The Reaper Autocannon isn't anything to sneeze at, but it's no CML. We have no answer for that.
There are always variables that you can plug in to counter my point...that's the "fun" of list building. That being said, this thread wasn't the first time I've seen someone say that "Terminators are too expensive/more expensive than any other terminator" and wanted to show that that's definitely not the case at all. In a game where the 2+ save is very strong, CSM are positioned nicely...especially since the Elite slot isn't exactly teaming with awesome units.
Look up a few posts in this thread and I talk about the point-per-resiliance. 10 PMs will last longer than 18 CSM from bolter fire.
That is bolter fire though, against S7+ weaponry PM will last about 2/5 longer and against a demolisher cannon they would both be as vulnerable so itsn't really as cut and dried as you suggest. PM are more points efficent that standard CSM but not by much. To be honest PM should have lost their basic BP/CCWand boltgun armament, that would put them much closer to CSM in points efficency.
As I have an army full of PMs though I'm not overly concerned
And better durability. Lets not forget that they are tougher-point for point than CSM vs hoards.
Oh, and in assault. Lets not forget that PMs are better in assault than CSMs due to the poisoned weapons.
And shooting. Don't forget that you can have 2 PGs for every 5 PMs.
PMs are not quite as good as GHs, but their close.
I was not speaking about PM but about all the named marines... However I question the value of even PM. 5 PM with 2 PG is going to cost you 145 Almost for the same cost I can get 10 naked CSM with 2 PG. Of course I lose the survivability but also - extrapolating out the core... If you fill all 6 troop slots, you have 30 plague marines where as I have 60 CSM with the same number of plasma shots. (870 vs 960 pts) I have said it is questionable which is better in this case (CSM vs PM). My point it is almost a slam dunk with the other 3 which is the better buy. The only point you have is fearless in the other 3 that you can hold over a standard CSM squad and that can be mitigated by giving them VoTLW.
true but in close combat the plague marines can destroy high toughness models the naked marines not so much. Also one battlecanno will do a number on your guys on the plagues the still get cover and feel no pain
true but in close combat the plague marines can destroy high toughness models the naked marines not so much.
Actually, 1 PM is better in close-combat than 2 (bolter only) CSMs against every opponent, and only barely worse than 2 (bp+ccw) CSMs. And of course they can take charges better (because of the Blight Grenades).
kcwm wrote: Replacing the Champions power weapon with a lightning claw, power fist, or chain fist is actually cheaper for Terminators than other models in the codex (25 points for a power fist on a power armor champion vs 10 for the Terminator). Yeah, those prices are REAL absurd.
The Power Armour Champion is upgrading from a chainsword. The Terminator is upgrading from a Power Weapon. Power Weapons cost 15 points. 25-15=10.
kcwm wrote: Replacing the Champions power weapon with a lightning claw, power fist, or chain fist is actually cheaper for Terminators than other models in the codex (25 points for a power fist on a power armor champion vs 10 for the Terminator). Yeah, those prices are REAL absurd.
The Power Armour Champion is upgrading from a chainsword. The Terminator is upgrading from a Power Weapon. Power Weapons cost 15 points. 25-15=10.
If you're gonna go that route, then that means removing the Power Weapon from the cost of a Terminator means he's a 16 point model. For 3 points more than a bare bones Chaos Marine, you're getting a 2+ armor save, +1 LD, +1 A, a 5+ invul, and a TL Bolter. That's pretty damn good.
Vaktathi wrote:Terminators are generally more expensive than they were previously...
Not so much. In the fourth edition codex, Terminators were 30 points apiece and a Champion was 10 points more. So, you're looking at 150 or 160 with a Champ. For the same unit, it's now 157. How is that generally more expensive?
The champ gave an extra attack last edition, he does not do so now and his wargear is costed to what it should be for a powerful IC not a unit champion.
If you wanted to give them all powerfists, that's 200 or 210 points. Again, how are the new edition Terminators generally more expensive than they were before? 185 is less than 200.
Because there was never a reason to give them all powerfists?
The Champion over pays for some of the upgrades when replacing their combi-bolter. The combi-weapons? They were 10 points in the old codex but 7 for the champ in the new one.
Combi's were 5pts in the last book.
The melee upgrades when replacing your combi-bolter? Of course they are expensive...you're generally going to get a 2nd melee attack out of it
only if it's a paired weapon and nowhere near worth what they're costed at for a single extra attack on one marine-statline model.
Replacing the Champions power weapon with a lightning claw, power fist, or chain fist is actually cheaper for Terminators than other models in the codex (25 points for a power fist on a power armor champion vs 10 for the Terminator). Yeah, those prices are REAL absurd.
Compared to the last codex, in many ways they are compared to what you're replacing.
A typical loadout for last edition may have been say, 6 termi's, one with an icon of Glory, 2 powerfists and 3 combi's, 225pts. Now, that's 217 without an icon and lower leadership, 242 with a Fearless icon or 235 with VotLW or 260 for both. The unit didn't really become any more effective than it was, 2+sv's are harder to crack in CC but there's no safe DS delivery method anymore either and CC is harder to utilize.
kcwm wrote: [The Reaper Autocannon isn't anything to sneeze at, but it's no CML. We have no answer for that.
You made an excellent post.
Palindrome wrote: That is bolter fire though, against S7+ weaponry PM will last about 2/5 longer and against a demolisher cannon they would both be as vulnerable so itsn't really as cut and dried as you suggest.
I don't know about your meta, but most of the armies weapons I see today are bolter-equse weapons. (Lasguns, shootas, etc)
While there are higher STR weapons, they are proportionally the smaller amount of fire that I see on the board. Easily 2/3 of the wounds thrown on my armies today are STR 5 and lower.
If your local meta is full of IG vet squads with 3 PGs each, you might want to look at something other than PMs.
AtoMaki wrote: Actually, 1 PM is better in close-combat than 2 (bolter only) CSMs against every opponent, and only barely worse than 2 (bp+ccw) CSMs. And of course they can take charges better (because of the Blight Grenades).
+1
The reason is the poisoned weapon. Lets look at a PM vs a Chosen. One would think the Chosen with 2 base attacks and an extra CCW would be better....
Chosen
1/2 hit, 1/2 wound = 1/4 of attacks wound. 3 attacks per chosen gives 3/4 wounds per chosen.
PM 1/2 hit, 3/4 wound = 3/8 of attacks wound. 2 attacks per PM gives 3/4 wounds per PM.
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: It is GW I know, but if everyone in GW talked with eachother and made more balanced codexes, we wouldn't have anything to complain about.. lol
This is definitely the key here. If GW only knew how to actually write decent, consistent rules we wouldn't be seeing these stupid threads EVERY time a new codex comes out. Instead GW has its authors writing their books as if they are in isolation from one another until the book is printed and isolation from any other books that have been released for a current edition as well. It is just silly. With a bit of effort they could effectively establish the power level of the game and keep it there consistently over all the codex lists, but they just don't know how to do it. For those complaining that they "changed" things for no apparent reason instead of fixing things needs to go back and look at how GW has written its books for the last 15 years to realize that such is the way they do it every time. Why fix problems with the rules when you can change them and make different problems instead? That is the GW way.
I've said my bit about the new chaos codex months ago and see no point in taking part in the continued horse beatings on that level...
What does it mean? PMs are extremely durable on a RPP scale from normal attacks. They are probably the best RPP unit in the game from STR 4 attacks that give normal saves.
Plague zombies come tantilizingly close at 84.38
Wraithlords are much higher though....
kcwm wrote: Replacing the Champions power weapon with a lightning claw, power fist, or chain fist is actually cheaper for Terminators than other models in the codex (25 points for a power fist on a power armor champion vs 10 for the Terminator). Yeah, those prices are REAL absurd.
The Power Armour Champion is upgrading from a chainsword. The Terminator is upgrading from a Power Weapon. Power Weapons cost 15 points. 25-15=10.
If you're gonna go that route, then that means removing the Power Weapon from the cost of a Terminator means he's a 16 point model. For 3 points more than a bare bones Chaos Marine, you're getting a 2+ armor save, +1 LD, +1 A, a 5+ invul, and a TL Bolter. That's pretty damn good.
Nope, opportunity cost also plays in. The point is you're upgrading a Power Weapon instead of a Chainsword.
Vaktathi wrote: Terminators are generally more expensive than they were previously, unless loading up on lots of powerfists and the like (if you didn't kit out the entire squad with them last edition, you won't notice any savings), and the Champion pays absurd prices for wargear upgrades for no discernible reason.
Chalenges and precision strikes. Been through this at least once before in threads.
DrDuckman wrote: My experince with the new codex has actually being very positive compared to the old one, and it made me expand my army quite a bit. I love the fact that now it encourages mono-god themed lists instead of a mish mash of Plague Marines and Khorne bezerkers with 2 DPs at all time.
Most of the arguments you made in the OP are isolations of the bad without the good. For example, yes oblits are lower leadership and need to switch weapons, but now are cheaper, and most importantly, CAN BE T5. This is amazing. Oblits have been boosted simply because of that overall. No longer will they get constantly sniped by Lascannons. It's gotten to the point that noone actually ever shoots at my obliterators any more, cause a T5 2+ 2W monster is not worth shooting at with anything short of a Railgun/Vindicator.
The main things that got really nerfed is DPs and Bezerkers, and DPs are still very good in most situations.
I think people are complaining because they dont want variety, they want SW style undercosted obvious choices. That's bad codex design though.
Khorne Bezerkers are underpower not just next to GK which even BA don't look that next to GK Khorne Bezerkers should be alot more like Blood Claws WS 3 would be very fluffy since Korn "dose not care where the blood comes from as long as the blood flows" also make them 15pts with 1 or 2 Khorne Bezerkers having PW or PF.
I can't see the 2 PF being a gamebreaker if every GK gets a force weapon for 20pts
DPs are not bad. They are costed so that if you don't give them wings, your wasting your points
How does that logic even work? If it's overcosted, giving them wings gives them an actual "Purpose" I guess you could say.
Except that it means that they need a very specific loadout to work, which in this case means that the original points cost is bunk because you'll always need to add wings..Which means it's points cost is wrong for what it's power is supposed to be compared to what it needs to be to work.
labmouse42 wrote: Easily 2/3 of the wounds thrown on my armies today are STR 5 and lower.
As most weapons are S5 and below that isn't suprising. Anything that will throw out 18 S4 shots is very likely to also have something that will throw out at least 1 S7+ shot as well though which is nearly as likely to kill a PM as a CSM. I am not denying that PMs are more survivable than CSM but what I am saying is that their costing isn't that far off from a survivability point of view.
A reaper autocannon is simply a twin linked autocannon, it has 2 shots.
DrDuckman wrote: My experince with the new codex has actually being very positive compared to the old one, and it made me expand my army quite a bit. I love the fact that now it encourages mono-god themed lists instead of a mish mash of Plague Marines and Khorne bezerkers with 2 DPs at all time.
Most of the arguments you made in the OP are isolations of the bad without the good. For example, yes oblits are lower leadership and need to switch weapons, but now are cheaper, and most importantly, CAN BE T5. This is amazing. Oblits have been boosted simply because of that overall. No longer will they get constantly sniped by Lascannons. It's gotten to the point that noone actually ever shoots at my obliterators any more, cause a T5 2+ 2W monster is not worth shooting at with anything short of a Railgun/Vindicator.
The main things that got really nerfed is DPs and Bezerkers, and DPs are still very good in most situations.
I think people are complaining because they dont want variety, they want SW style undercosted obvious choices. That's bad codex design though.
Khorne Bezerkers are underpower not just next to GK which even BA don't look that next to GK Khorne Bezerkers should be alot more like Blood Claws WS 3 would be very fluffy since Korn "dose not care where the blood comes from as long as the blood flows" also make them 15pts with 1 or 2 Khorne Bezerkers having PW or PF.
I can't see the 2 PF being a gamebreaker if every GK gets a force weapon for 20pts
Khorne Berzerkers should not, under any circumstance, be reduced to WS3. Their entire fluff revolves around them being awesome but crazy melee fighters. If anything, they should get the same profile as Death Company minus the ranged options, but be scoring to compensate.
And a Power Fist is much better than a Force Weapons against vehicles, T4 and lower and anything immune to ID or that only has one wound. It's also AP2.
Palindrome wrote: As most weapons are S5 and below that isn't suprising. Anything that will throw out 18 S4 shots is very likely to also have something that will throw out at least 1 S7+ shot as well though which is nearly as likely to kill a PM as a CSM. I am not denying that PMs are more survivable than CSM but what I am saying is that their costing isn't that far off from a survivability point of view.
You just proved my point.
You take 18 shots that are STR 4, and then 2 shots that are STR 7+ (PG, MG, MM, ML)
That means on average, 2 MEQ would die from bolters, and 1.111 MEQ die from the STR 7+ AP3 weapons.
On average, 0.882 PM will die from bolters, and 0.74 PM will die from the STR 7+ AP3 weapons
Assuming 17 points per MEQ, you lost 52.887 points of MEQ At 24 points per PM, you lost 38.928 points of PM.
PMs are, point for point, much more survivable than MEQ.
Palindrome wrote: A reaper autocannon is simply a twin linked autocannon, it has 2 shots.
Your right. I misread it when I looked at the entry yesterday. I take that back, a CSM is better than a reaper.
PMs are, point for point, much more survivable than MEQ.
They aren't much more, they are a bit more and a lot depends on exactly what they are shot with. That isn't the whole story though is it, the ranged damage potentially of an equally pointed CSM squad is a lot higher due to the sheer number of shots.
PM are more points efficient but not by a huge margin.
If I was running a non legion force I would be happy to run multiple squads of CSM and with no legion troops at all.
His maths are off. CSM cost 13 ppm so actually only 40 points of CSM die (46 with CCW/BP + bolter which drops down to 41ish with MoN). Basically the difference is effectively negligable in this rather limited scenario which can change to favour either option depending on exactly what is shooting at them.
Of course PM are a lot better in assaults but then they do cost 11 PPM more.
Palindrome wrote: They aren't much more, they are a bit more and a lot depends on exactly what they are shot with.
Take the scenario showed above, which is a average squad shooting in today's meta. The MEQ lose 3.111 models, the PM lose 1.622 models. That means the PM are 92% better at taking fire than MEQ. That's a repeatable scenario you can expect to see multiple times per game.
Let me put it this way. Would you rather have a job making $55,000 a year, or $105,600 a year. That's what a 92% increase in repeatable values provides.
Even talking pure RPP values, the PMs are 36% better at taking damage from the scenario. Even 36% is the difference between $55,000 a year and $74,800 a year.
Palindrome wrote: That isn't the whole story though is it, the ranged damage potentially of an equally pointed CSM squad is a lot higher due to the sheer number of shots.
I would not say a 'lot higher'. CSM does have more shots, surely. Lets compare apples to apples. You want a CSM squad that is good at holding mid-board. Given an extra CCW, and vets of long war pushes your CSM to 16 points a pop. That unit can do the job of mid-board control well.
PMs don't have the 10 point champion surcharge, so for every 10 PMs on the board, you can bring 14.3 CSM with bolters. The CSM will have 43% more shooting for the same cost -- but less durability, lack of fearless, less ability in CC, lack of defensive gernades, etc...
Now, is 43% a lot higher? That depends if you think that 36% is a lot higher
Palindrome wrote: His maths are off. CSM cost 13 ppm so actually only 40 points of CSM die
Your comparing apples to oranges. Your 13 point CSM does not fill the same role in the game. That's like comparing a LRR to a predator. Their completely different units with different purposes. A better comparison there would be cultists vs CSM.
Your 13 point CSM is designed to hold objectives and not get close. They are fragile in CC and easily swept.
I priced the MEQ at 17 points a model, as that is roughly what you need to have the same role as PM. Mid-board control.
Vaktathi wrote: Terminators are generally more expensive than they were previously, unless loading up on lots of powerfists and the like (if you didn't kit out the entire squad with them last edition, you won't notice any savings), and the Champion pays absurd prices for wargear upgrades for no discernible reason.
Chalenges and precision strikes. Been through this at least once before in threads.
Neither of which justify *that* much of a premium. I'd be surprised to see DA terminator sergeants pay the same prices.
Had a team Tourney Adepti style yesterday at local game store. Lost 2 games, tied 1. The tied one was against GK and vanilla marines, the two losses Necrons then to Nids... The Necrons and Nids it was an up hill battle the entire game, the Necrons we held them until the end, but the nids it was a slow death from the beginning and we stole innitiative. It is really hard I think to be competative, esp. with horde armies and Necrons. Though I think everyone has a problem with Necrons right now. The Necrons just had so many flyers and so many things that could outrun us, they were able to outmaneuver us at all times. Nids the main problem was speed and their MC have so many wounds that stopping them in time was difficult even while concentrating fire. Their main HQ man he is a beast in CC, my PM held him off as long as they could, but even end of game he still had 1 wound left. I know tactics and everything is an issue, but I have posted my records I am not a bad player (not the best), I have better records with my Eldar and Orks and Chaos Daemons and they are all old codexes. Sorry just a little downtrodden.
These are the questions I ask after I play games. I ask them harder when I lose. This is why I try and play better players so I can continue to improve my game.
1) What did I field?
2) What did I find was missing?
- long range support
- anti-flyer
- counter-assault?
3) What did my opponent do that caused me a lot of problems?
- What would have been a good counter to them?
4) What worked out well for me?
- How can I make sure to do that again and again?
5) How could I have deployed/moved differently?
Edit : If your looking to win, check out CD again. Flamers/Screamers are so overpowered right now its not even funny. I've still be doing very well with my fatecrusher list. (I bring fatecrusher with 18 flamers and 6 screamers)
Palindrome wrote: His maths are off. CSM cost 13 ppm so actually only 40 points of CSM die (46 with CCW/BP + bolter which drops down to 41ish with MoN). Basically the difference is effectively negligable in this rather limited scenario which can change to favour either option depending on exactly what is shooting at them.
Of course PM are a lot better in assaults but then they do cost 11 PPM more.
The arguement of survivability is moot. No one is going to deny that PM is more survivable than CSM. The other side of the arguement is damage potential.
145 for 5 PM with 2 Plasma - 160 for 10 CSM with 2 Plasma. 3 bolter shots and 2 plasma versus 8 bolter and 2 plasma shots double that if under 12".
HTH is going to be about even except for the poison giving them a bonus. Now it adds to the cost but VotLW, MoK or MoS, adding CCW will tip it more in favor of CSM over PM.
I can't help but notice, my original arguement was that CSM were superior to all the "chosen" marines. The only arguement that is going on is that Plague Marines are better but Berzerkers, Noise Marines, and 1000 Sons no arguement. So GW managed to get one out of four right - 25% is not that good of a success rate.
labmouse42 wrote: These are the questions I ask after I play games. I ask them harder when I lose. This is why I try and play better players so I can continue to improve my game.
1) What did I field?
2) What did I find was missing?
- long range support
- anti-flyer
- counter-assault?
3) What did my opponent do that caused me a lot of problems?
- What would have been a good counter to them?
4) What worked out well for me?
- How can I make sure to do that again and again?
5) How could I have deployed/moved differently?
Edit : If your looking to win, check out CD again. Flamers/Screamers are so overpowered right now its not even funny. I've still be doing very well with my fatecrusher list. (I bring fatecrusher with 18 flamers and 6 screamers)
1.)What did we play - well I played a LordNurgle CombiMelta and fist in Termi armour, 2 squads of Plague marines 7 man - 1 with 2 melta and combi melta and 1 with 2 plasma and combi plasma, 1 havok squad 5 man MK Nurgle Autocannons 4, Helldrake with Bale Flamer, Oblits 2 MkNurgle... My partner ran Ahriman, 1 Tson list 9 man with Sorc Force Ax, 1 Tson 8man Sorc Force Ax, Havoks 4 man missile with flakk and aegis with icarus las cannon
2.)Missing stuff, well I do not like the Icarus with one shot I just find it too unreliable, if anything I would take the Quad, but that was not my choice. I think T-sons are cool, but too expensive and most things get cover so AP3 not so great.
I think I need to take more plasma as the Melta was hard to get into range
We had the most problems dealing with Flyers - Necrons and their overall mobility compared to ours, With Nids there high toughness - high wound characters are so ridiculous - we trying to hit the hive tyrant straight away killed one body guard put a wound on the tyrant- in the end the tyrant had one wound and had killed my lord and two pm squads with help mind you - some yrmgryl and tervigon and babies - but he did most of the work
the last game the Termie paladins with 2 wounds and FNP are a pain to deal with and Draigo forget about it. I just tryed to shoot him and not engage but a big part of the mission was the relic - try taking a relic away from paladins - we made him drop it 3 times, but could not widdle them down enough to kill the squad - 3 termies, apoth and draigo
3.) Counter assault - high ap long range or high S with more dakka, as well as anti air and anti horde - pretty hard for chaos marines to do this with 1000 points per adepticon team, keep racking my brain on it.... losing is always a good lesson and playing really good players are fun playing WAAC jackass players - not so much fun.... I played 2 nice groups, 1 group who had the advantage with their army were really jerky, which is never fun
4.) The Plague marines I found were solid units and took a lot to kill, they just don't have enough dakka, but if I went with more plasma and hit them at range may be. I think the Oblits and Havoks did quite well. The helldrake did great 1 game, but the first 2 games after making an entrance got knocked out of the air by all the Necron aircraft and the nid flying bugs. I think another helldrake would be good or maybe more heavy support, but can only take 1 per team mate 1 person may take an extra Heavy though.
5.) One of our biggest mistakes I believe was putting our Aegis too far forward in 1 game, which was against my decision, however the other times I thought our deployment was decent, but maybe hold stuff more back and letting the enemy come to them. Bu you can not always do this for each mission.
Thanks for the advice it often helps to step by step go through it.
I worry that the dividing line between a 'good' codex and a 'bad' codex will be flyers. The ability to take flyers as Dedicated Transports is pretty powerful, and the CSM Flak Missiles aren't that great.
Coming from a BA codex to CSM the Havocs pricing seem to make the Autocannon the price effective option for potential air threat.
ML with flakk are just too pricey to field IMO (unless there is serious list tailoring going on). Even then I would almost take a lascannon squad over them.
PMs are, point for point, much more survivable than MEQ.
Palindrome wrote: A reaper autocannon is simply a twin linked autocannon, it has 2 shots.
Your right. I misread it when I looked at the entry yesterday. I take that back, a CSM is better than a reaper.
for some reason though its range is reduced to 36"
they cost 25 points on a terminator, the same 25 points a loyalist can have an assault cannont or a GK can have a psycannon. for 5 points more they can have a cyclone missile launcher and keep their storm bolter. By far the worst terminator weapon.
-up 
I really don't think that you read the posts. I did state earlier that I was not the best player, but I am a good player. I was just countering your 'armchair general' comment. If I was talking out my derrier I would certainly post a better record. Something that you continue to avoid, even though you are such an expert. Why don't you do us all a favor and stop posting on here or post some useful and constructive comments, instead of just slamming people.
next to 