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Isn't the next book DA and it's being written by Ward? I mean I guess it's nice to not be considered the overpowered cheesy new codex, but that's not much comfort if you then get squashed by the next codex that's released.

Plus I don't think being the first codex in a new edition is a good thing. Too many variables in how the new rules will shake out to take into account when designing the codex and units.

We shall see.

if all else fails i still have my necrons. My Iron Warriors can take a break.

 Praxiss wrote:
We shall see.

if all else fails i still have my necrons. My Iron Warriors can take a break.

Nooo more Ward Cheese!

That's the problem, in competitive play it will be all Ward All the time!

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The Chaos book is a pretty minor change on the old one, yes, but it's actually a middle-of-the-road army competitively instead of the old pattern of making the new book horribly broken and watching everyone jump on the bandwagon, which is a nice change.

Your new Dark Angels book is being written by Mat Ward. It's going to be a broken facemelter. This is all very ironic. Of course, I'm sure you deserve a new cheezy book and you'll be replying about how you earned it and other limp-wristed rebuttals.

And I'll say it in every thread: If it wasn't for the Chaos boons table, this book would almost be objectively worse than the old one. In some ways it probably even is worse.

In all, it's a flop of a release and I hope that Games Workshop just stops ever making Chaos Space Marines so that I don't have to deal with their milquetoast garbage while Space Marines get 90 different codices.

And no haven't bought anything Chaos related in a while. I was planning to but after I looked through it I was just disappointed. I laughed at some chump playing Chaos Space Marines the other day as I overran his pitiful, overpriced, copy-pasted from the 4th edition book Thousand Sons with my legion of Imperial conscripts. My battle tanks demolished his highly overpriced Chaos Space Marines with the Mark of Tzeentch.

My Commissar-led blob of troops held out against a fully kitted Daemon Prince for 3 freaking rounds, and got it down to one wound. I remarked how this wouldn't have happened if Daemon Princes didn't suck this edition.

I just felt sorry for him. Paid 50 bucks for what effectively amounts to a White Dwarf update.

So aside from your previous comments, I was just really wondering on how you REALLY felt about the new Chaos Marines codex... lol Just teasing

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
So aside from your previous comments, I was just really wondering on how you REALLY felt about the new Chaos Marines codex... lol Just teasing

Glad you asked! Haha

Nah I know I sperg out a lot about Chaos but I really like a lot of the models and background. It's funny because I was one of the few people during the Chaos rumors that was pretty overwhelmingly positive. So now I have to be overwhelmingly negative to balance it all out, y'know? Definitely a lesson about not having high expectations!

Well, there are actually a few effective units in the codes: Lord, CSM, Bikers, Spawn, Plague Marines, Havocs.
Moreover, there are some good choices: Helldrake, Obliterators w/ MoN, Sorcerer, and (to some extent) Termies.
From this, I think its possible to make a decent list.

It really isn't a power issue, although the power is pretty weak.
Defilers are garbage, DP are pretty worthless, Tsons are only gonna show up in fluff lists. Zerkers got nerfed hard. Termiators got nerfed. on and on and on.

At the same time there are some really strong things. Bikes are insanely way to cheap.

Its an ascetic thing. The new units are all pretty mediocer. WIth the exception of the helturkey, which is insterting and unique(flyer with torrent flamer and VS) the new things just arent that exciting:

Warp Talons look awesome, but they are very specialized, and frankly too good at what they do.

Mutilators look cool, sound cool, but have virtually no role to fill and arent very good to boot.

Maulerfiends are fast walkers, with no shooting and two sets of special weapons that serve no purpose.

Forgefiends are larger, more expensive psirifleman. Alternatively they can be a shorter range, overcosted walking LR executioner(the plasma one)

Dark Aposles and Warpsmiths both missed the boat on the rules section. Cool models, cool fluff, but downright mediocer rules, no excitement. (ooo instead of shooting my meltagun at a tank and killing it, I can make "gets hot" and there is a 16% chance it will glance itself next turn)

Cultists seem cool until you realize they are more expensive than guardsmen for less ability in shooty form. For combat they cost a little less than ork boys for far less effectiveness.

Then you have the new chaos sorcer powers. Three sets of 4 powers, 12 all together! Almost all witchfire. 1 blessing, a few maladictions, nothing useful. Across the board worse than the rulebook powers and you are forced to take some rolls on these clearly subpar tables.

The armory was brought back but it is pretty baren. only 2 daemon weapons, teleport homers(icons) removed. Pretty sad with one bright spot, a crazy OP flamer thrown in.

A lot of stuff was fixed, raptors became cheaper. Spawn got much better. PM got even better NM got cheaper, although their sonic weapons dont work. It just wasnt enough and it wasnt exciting.

There is still so much that wasnt fixed. CSM still get 1 sucky land raider. They still only have the flat rhino with combi bolter for transports. They renamed the dreadnaught but failed to give him anything to make him interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
further, why are there only 7 SC? C:SM has 10. I understand CSM cannot have 6 books like loyalists, but CSM should have as much fluff, back ground, and choice as C:SM. 10 SC would have really gone a long way to making iron warriros, alpha legion and word bearers players happy.

I actually like the codex but i have friends who dont and i can see their points.

The thing is its only a bad codex if future 6th ed codex's are stupidly powerful, the dark angel codex and Tau will give us an idea of where it stands in the grand theme of things.

Comparing it to old codex's isnt ideal as stuff like the valkyrie is now far too cheap for what it does since the flyer rules came into effect.

actually like the codex but i have friends who dont and i can see their points.

The thing is its only a bad codex if future 6th ed codex's are stupidly powerful,

It's also cheaply made and has an odd lack of innovation, which is my main issue with it.

I don't mind if it's mid tier, I mind if there's a very noticeable lack of effort to give some updates or changes. Like Marks for Vehicles that really should've been back, even forgeworld added this!

I do wish marks were back for vehicles. I was hoping for... well more as well.

My passion for the chaos marines has not diminished with this new codex nor did it with the previous codex when that was released. now on my third chaos codex and it seems to have become progresively more bland and generic with each release. How can you say otherwise? My biggest grumble with the codex is the lack of legion representation and no teleport homers or new named characters, daemon princes have obviously been rubbished because everbody used them in the previous codex, the perfect time to introduce new characters is when you nerf princes. havocs are a good choice now but are still out shot by space wolves. still love the fluff but the codex has failed to capture the true essence of evil and the artwork is cartoony at times!

Well, I guess you can't please everyone. :p

I've no prior experience with chaos, but I've been enjoying collecting and painting my CSM, and played one game that went well for me. Only 1 game in with them so far, and I'm using daemon allies as well.

I found that some of the characters, well particularly typhus, were devastating in close combat with their daemon weapons.

Have a forgefiend but haven't assembled it yet, but it looks awesome.

I like the idea of the typhus zombie horde. I mainly like this book because I can make a very evil, nasty, ugly looking army, in conjunction with daemon allies, that isn't a standard space marine list with lots of tanks or heavy infantry types. I like having some real monsters in my army now.

The defiler has always looked lame to me, and not something I'd be interested in collecting or painting. Maybe a cool scratchbuilt model would make it appealing...

Also, I'm only interested in a mono Nurgle list, as the other chaos forces aren't appealing to me. I found that the plague marines were big winners, and were very effective at killing space marines with dual plasma guns in every squad, and the T5 + feel no pain REALLY pissed off my opponent!

Even getting assaulted, they held their ground with the defensive grenades and actually routed the attacker with the poisoned weapons. They're definitely going to be my bread-and-butter troop choice.

The heldrakes look pretty sweet and I'd love to have some, but at ~ $70 a pop, that's a pricey deal.

At any rate, I'm satisfied with the codex and appreciate the hardbound book and color artwork.

I just hope Matt the terrible codex writer ward does not go to town on the dark angels and make chaos marines look like complete arse.... Pappa Nurgle should be very angry right now.

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
I just hope Matt the terrible codex writer ward does not go to town on the dark angels and make chaos marines look like complete arse.... Pappa Nurgle should be very angry right now.

Well, Ward will show us again how to write an ''interesting'' codex - something very different from the boring CSM book.

 Cave_Dweller wrote:
Well, I guess you can't please everyone. :p
....
At any rate, I'm satisfied with the codex and appreciate the hardbound book and color artwork.

Of course you are. You're playing "Codex: Nurgle Or Go Home". Also you didn't have the high expectations that most Chaos players had since we've been playing for a while so it's not nearly as difficult for you to have a good reaction.

Not knocking on you of course. If you're having fun that's good!
Just be aware that here and elsewhere there are many who are not nearly as impressed.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Cave_Dweller wrote:
Well, I guess you can't please everyone. :p
....
At any rate, I'm satisfied with the codex and appreciate the hardbound book and color artwork.

Of course you are. You're playing "Codex: Nurgle Or Go Home". Also you didn't have the high expectations that most Chaos players had since we've been playing for a while so it's not nearly as difficult for you to have a good reaction.

Not knocking on you of course. If you're having fun that's good!
Just be aware that here and elsewhere there are many who are not nearly as impressed.

There's a great deal of butthurt always going around in this game, nothing new there.

 Cave_Dweller wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Cave_Dweller wrote:
Well, I guess you can't please everyone. :p
....
At any rate, I'm satisfied with the codex and appreciate the hardbound book and color artwork.

Of course you are. You're playing "Codex: Nurgle Or Go Home". Also you didn't have the high expectations that most Chaos players had since we've been playing for a while so it's not nearly as difficult for you to have a good reaction.

Not knocking on you of course. If you're having fun that's good!
Just be aware that here and elsewhere there are many who are not nearly as impressed.

There's a great deal of butthurt always going around in this game, nothing new there.

>Implying someone who doesn't like the codex is butthurt and doesn't have legit issues with it
>Implying that I'm butthurt when you're the one who paid 50 bucks for something with 100 pages

Really I'm just

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

My Commissar-led blob of troops held out against a fully kitted Daemon Prince for 3 freaking rounds, and got it down to one wound. I remarked how this wouldn't have happened if Daemon Princes didn't suck this edition.

I think you'll find that it would, unless you're expecting a Daemon Prince to kill off 30+ models over 3 turns. Stubborn kinda does that.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

My Commissar-led blob of troops held out against a fully kitted Daemon Prince for 3 freaking rounds, and got it down to one wound. I remarked how this wouldn't have happened if Daemon Princes didn't suck this edition.

I think you'll find that it would, unless you're expecting a Daemon Prince to kill off 30+ models over 3 turns. Stubborn kinda does that.

It was only 20 guys+Commissar with a power maul who kept bashing the Prince. For how much it costed I expected the Prince to run all over them.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

My Commissar-led blob of troops held out against a fully kitted Daemon Prince for 3 freaking rounds, and got it down to one wound. I remarked how this wouldn't have happened if Daemon Princes didn't suck this edition.

I think you'll find that it would, unless you're expecting a Daemon Prince to kill off 30+ models over 3 turns. Stubborn kinda does that.

It was only 20 guys+Commissar with a power maul who kept bashing the Prince. For how much it costed I expected the Prince to run all over them.

The old "better" Daemon Prince wouldn't have killed them any faster. They're kinda an anti-deathstar.

The Deamon Prince surviving getting hit by 30 models over the course of three turns is bad? It may not have won like you wanted, but it did survive quite a bit.

The old DP may not have done any better, the outcome probably wouldn't have changed, but he'd be a hell of a lot cheaper in doing so

 juraigamer wrote:
The codex isn't the new GK or Nercon matt ward nonsense. Do you really want stupid cheap stuff, in both senses, and everyone playing that army and one build out of that army?

I don't. The points are fine, you pay for what you get. The book is balanced internally and nothing completely outshines something else for a slot.

I wanted a codex that had something over others, but it is honestly just the fourth edition codex, it could have been covered in a White Dwarf update. I didn't want Matt Ward cheese, just a well designed and hard hitting army, but it isn't.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

My Commissar-led blob of troops held out against a fully kitted Daemon Prince for 3 freaking rounds, and got it down to one wound. I remarked how this wouldn't have happened if Daemon Princes didn't suck this edition.

I think you'll find that it would, unless you're expecting a Daemon Prince to kill off 30+ models over 3 turns. Stubborn kinda does that.

It was only 20 guys+Commissar with a power maul who kept bashing the Prince. For how much it costed I expected the Prince to run all over them.

The old "better" Daemon Prince wouldn't have killed them any faster. They're kinda an anti-deathstar.

No, but at least it would have been able to avoid them with the Lash as opposed to just getting charged.

In any case, let's not make this about one isolated example, albeit a fairly telling one. I still want to hear the stories of Daemon Princes getting one-shotted by a Demolisher cannon while Marneus Calgar walks away with only 1 less wound.

Because that totally makes sense, right?

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

My Commissar-led blob of troops held out against a fully kitted Daemon Prince for 3 freaking rounds, and got it down to one wound. I remarked how this wouldn't have happened if Daemon Princes didn't suck this edition.

I think you'll find that it would, unless you're expecting a Daemon Prince to kill off 30+ models over 3 turns. Stubborn kinda does that.

It was only 20 guys+Commissar with a power maul who kept bashing the Prince. For how much it costed I expected the Prince to run all over them.

The old "better" Daemon Prince wouldn't have killed them any faster. They're kinda an anti-deathstar.

No, but at least it would have been able to avoid them with the Lash as opposed to just getting charged.

Whereas the new one is a flying monstrous creature and as such should be able to easily stay clear of any blobs. That, conveniently enough, also makes it immune to blast weapons.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


Whereas the new one is a flying monstrous creature and as such should be able to easily stay clear of any blobs. That, conveniently enough, also makes it immune to blast weapons.

Yeah it's about 200 base (195 if slaaneshi) if you're a FMC, and that's without other upgrades. And let's not pretend that it's super difficult to ground a FMC either.

Furthermore, for the price of a single Daemon Prince with wings, powered armor, and a single mastery level, you could almost buy 2 of the old 4th edition Daemon Princes which conveniently had Eternal Warrior so that they didn't completely suck.

As it is, for their price they're still too fragile.

DrDuckman wrote:
My experince with the new codex has actually being very positive compared to the old one, and it made me expand my army quite a bit. I love the fact that now it encourages mono-god themed lists instead of a mish mash of Plague Marines and Khorne bezerkers with 2 DPs at all time.

Most of the arguments you made in the OP are isolations of the bad without the good. For example, yes oblits are lower leadership and need to switch weapons, but now are cheaper, and most importantly, CAN BE T5. This is amazing. Oblits have been boosted simply because of that overall. No longer will they get constantly sniped by Lascannons. It's gotten to the point that noone actually ever shoots at my obliterators any more, cause a T5 2+ 2W monster is not worth shooting at with anything short of a Railgun/Vindicator.

The main things that got really nerfed is DPs and Bezerkers, and DPs are still very good in most situations.

I think people are complaining because they dont want variety, they want SW style undercosted obvious choices. That's bad codex design though.

Actually Obliterators aren't cheaper... they are still 70pts each. Yeah they can be T5 with MoN but IIRC in a previous edition they were T5 basic. Devastators take out obliterators all the time, a squad with 4 (or 5 in the case of long fangs) lascannons or plasma cannons will leave no trace of Oblits just like before. Plenty of stuff can still Insta-gibb them too.
Mono-god lists are over-costed still. And that 300pt uber DP you had planned dies horribly from a single wound from X Y Z weapons. A single shot can put the 'most prized champions of the chaos gods' on his arse for good... one shot... one...
Takes head shot to a whole new meaning

Oblits were 75 points base, T4 base in the previous book, the book written by Thorpe and Cavatore. I'm looking at their entry right now in the codex.

Oblits got buffed in terms of survivability since they can take MoN, and mobility due to SnP change; having to switch weapons is another matter however, it's a double edged sword.

I still like oblits, and the switching weapons is not often that difficult, but can be a pain.