Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The CSM codex is the first codex of the new edition, the overall impression seems to be 'better than the last one', and the next codex in the queue is a loyalist marine codex by Matt Ward.

Anyone want to take bets on what the popularity of the CSM codex will be a year from now?

Nah Matt Ward never writes anything that is broken or really good. *cough Cough* Necrons *cough* Grey Knight *cough* Blood Angels *cough, cough*... umm sorry had a Ward stuck in my throat.

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
Nah Matt Ward never writes anything that is broken or really good. *cough Cough* Necrons *cough* Grey Knight *cough* Blood Angels *cough, cough*... umm sorry had a Ward stuck in my throat.

And Grey Knights is the only thing that comes remotely close to the grand-daddy -up; 7th edition Daemons of Chaos!

That's true, 40k hasn't had anything near that busted since 2nd edition Eldar.

 Vaktathi wrote:
That's true, 40k hasn't had anything near that busted since 2nd edition Eldar.

3.5 chaos

4.0 Skimmerspam.

GK are a pale comparison to what either of those two could put out.

Not like 7th was balanced by a longshot, before daemons was Gav thorpes Vampire Counts and the Dark Elves, which were both broken in their own ways to the point if you weren't playing the army yourself, you were out of luck when it came down to it, Daemons just completed the Triforce of Pain as the top overshadowing both.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
That's true, 40k hasn't had anything near that busted since 2nd edition Eldar.

3.5 chaos

4.0 Skimmerspam.

GK are a pale comparison to what either of those two could put out.

Not like 7th was balanced by a longshot, Before daemons was Gav thorpes Vampire Counts and the Dark Elves, which were both broken in their own ways to the point if you weren't playing the army, you were out of luck when it came to magic, Daemons just completed the Triforce of Pain as the top.

Hrm, GK's aren't much behind 3.5 CSM and 4E Skimmerspam, they were also pretty bad, but not near 7E fantasy daemons or 2E Eldar (which pretty much by themselves caused GW to reinvent the game with 3rd ed).

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
plague marines more expensive,

PMs are well worth the 1 point increase for the plague knife. They are also excellent units that are even more useful in today's meta of heavy infantry armies.

FNP has gotten better with T5 models as now they get FNP from TH/SS terminator or LC/ML shots.

Bolters/PGs have gotten better, as they can now move and shoot at full range.

So overall, PMs are excellent models.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
That's true, 40k hasn't had anything near that busted since 2nd edition Eldar.

3.5 chaos

4.0 Skimmerspam.

GK are a pale comparison to what either of those two could put out.

Not like 7th was balanced by a longshot, Before daemons was Gav thorpes Vampire Counts and the Dark Elves, which were both broken in their own ways to the point if you weren't playing the army, you were out of luck when it came to magic, Daemons just completed the Triforce of Pain as the top.

Hrm, GK's aren't much behind 3.5 CSM and 4E Skimmerspam, they were also pretty bad, but not near 7E fantasy daemons or 2E Eldar (which pretty much by themselves caused GW to reinvent the game with 3rd ed).

I'll give you that when warpspiders came out they were bad ass, Harlies were really awesome in 1st edition, but I my Orks held there own in 1st and second edition (they could shoot back then, back when Ghazghul had a BS of 6 and all Orks had a 3 except for stormboyz which in 1st has BS 4) . I had some friends that were really good with squats, IG and Chaos back then too. But I do admit Eldar were bad ass in 2nd...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 labmouse42 wrote:
[quote=Eiluj The Farseer 493154 5051831 cc1cf335dda538c50a00602dea73608f.jpgplague marines more expensive,

PMs are well worth the 1 point increase for the plague knife. They are also excellent units that are even more useful in today's meta of heavy infantry armies.

FNP has gotten better with T5 models as now they get FNP from TH/SS terminator or LC/ML shots.

Bolters/PGs have gotten better, as they can now move and shoot at full range.

So overall, PMs are excellent models.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
That's true, 40k hasn't had anything near that busted since 2nd edition Eldar.

3.5 chaos

4.0 Skimmerspam.

GK are a pale comparison to what either of those two could put out.

Not like 7th was balanced by a longshot, before daemons was Gav thorpes Vampire Counts and the Dark Elves, which were both broken in their own ways to the point if you weren't playing the army yourself, you were out of luck when it came down to it, Daemons just completed the Triforce of Pain as the top overshadowing both.

3.5 Chaos only had 1 near auto-win list due to how broken the Siren minor power was. IW's were mean yes, but if you had proper amounts of terrain you had the cover to weather it for a bit.
4.0 Skimmer spam was nasty, but enough S6/7 spam knocked it down. Only Tyranids were really screwed vs that one. IG & CSM's laughed at it since they could spam autocannons, while anyone who could spam asscans would eventually rend the list to death.

Grey Knights in 5th required specific counters, making it pretty much impossible for non-GK armies to build a solid TAC's that could handle the very likely possibilty of facing all three of the main builds in a single event. (Draigowing, Purifyer spam, Henchmen spam)
Added on top, Daemons and Tyranids were unplayable vs GK's, while Orks got shoehorned into the Kanwall since anything else would fall flat vs Purifyer spam.


7th ed went VC's ---> Daemons of Chaos ---> Dark Elves actually. (March/May/August releases)
VC's only enjoyed a brief time at the top, with the only viable build afterwards being the Graveguard Deathstar + Ghoul spam. Dark Elves, Lizardmen & Skaven could all deal with VC's, while Daemons just curbstomped everyone without even trying!



Luckily, if the new Chaos Marine codex is indeed the new precident, we should hopefully see an edition of 40k where all armies are fairly level in overall power against eachother!

Of corse, the real testing point will be the forthcoming DA book. If it's full of OTT spamy crap, then Chaos Marine players may well have a legitiment beef about being 'well balanced' for only a scarce few months. (or rather, it will simply prove that Ward is and always has been the most major problem with the game's balance issues! )

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
[I agree, so far in 6th I have never left home without them for a game. I... Sure they are not T6 bikers, but T5 is still good except for demolisher cannons and Rail guns...

I've been using some in test games, and have found excellent success with them. I've been bringing 50 of them and holing mid-field.

The T5 plus FNP is excellent. In the last game I played, I had a 10 man squad get assaulted by 10 TH/SS terminators. I took 12 wounds, and by some crazy piece of luck, I managed to FNP save 10 of them. My friend was boggled, and while he did eventually manage to wipe the PM squad, it took 3 more rounds of combat.

I have had the same thing happen to me. I played a game of the relic and used one squad to keep a squad of termies busy while another squad retreated to my side of the board with the relic. It worked very well.

I find that the new codex is quite competitive. No not overpowering but effective.

The frustration is the marked troops -berzerkers noise maines, 1000 sons, plague marins - are truly not that competitive because they are overcosted. However if you go with basic CSM as a core you will find you have a large number of troops with decent firepower.

The other disappointment for me is that the vehicles and characters are rather lackluster. This is either through cost or effectiveness - they just don't excite me.

So as long as you look at a core of CSM, Havocs and perhaps chosen or bikers, they are a very lethal force with numbers and firepower and even decent CC ability as an option.

I agree the elites that used to be troops are a little overcosted, except for plague marines - i think for what you get and a poison blade and bolt pitol, they are very durable and decent at holding objectives, taking out vehicles if given upgrades and in CC (more of a tarpit). I love T-sons, but competitively meh. Though this weekend am in a tourney for Adepti practice team, so he is playing Ahriman and tsons and I am playing plague marines and lord. We shall see how we do... If you are in Beaver Dam you should come to the tourney, if you are not already.. Cheers man.

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
I agree the elites that used to be troops are a little overcosted, except for plague marines - i

+1 to this.

A good way to balance the durability of a unit is to compare point-for-point its ability to absorb fire in comparison to other units. In other words, if 20 bolter shots will kill 1 plague marine, but kill 6.6 orks. A total of 24 points of PM will die, yet 39.6 points of orks will die from the same firepower.

Formula
Your base resilience (BR) is based upon the following formula. Using this to can determine how many shots it takes to kill one model.
(To Hit) * (To Wound) * (Fail Save) * (Fail FNP) * (Shots Fired) = 1

Divide this value by the cost of the model to get its resilience-per-point (RPP)
(Base Resilience) / (Model Cost) * 100

Just make an excel spreadsheet to do this for you.

Results
Using this you get the following RPP values from MEQ bolter shots
Plague Marine....84.6
Grey Hunter........60
Ork.....................50
Terminator..........45

Using this you get the following RPP values from MEQ AutoCannon shots
Grey Hunter........36
Plague Marine....33.75
Ork.....................30
Terminator..........27

This is the RPP result from Melta Gun/PG shots
Ork.....................30
TH/SS termie......13.5
Grey Hunter........12
Plague Marine....11.25
Terminator..........6.75

What does it mean?
PMs are extremely durable on a RPP scale from normal attacks. They are probably the best RPP unit in the game from STR 4 attacks that give normal saves.

Even when shot by weapons that deny saves, they are close to TH/SS termies and GH on RPP values. Even when shot by high STR weapons that negate their toughness advantage, PMs are still excellent on a RPP value.

Maybe I am not following the math, but how is an Ork getting hit by a melta shot better than termies? Or am I looking at the numbers wrong - do you want a lower number. Orks are T4 no save from bolter? Sorry if not quite getting it..

more orks to get hit and they are cheaper per model. In other words are ineffective against mobs of boys.

ah okay got it sorry

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
Maybe I am not following the math, but how is an Ork getting hit by a melta shot better than termies? Or am I looking at the numbers wrong - do you want a lower number. Orks are T4 no save from bolter? Sorry if not quite getting it..

Its Point-Per-Resiliance

Shooting a melta gun at an ork kills a 6 point model. Shooting the melta gun at a MANZ kills a 40 point model.
Sure the ork dies easier, but your RPP value is much better. IE, you want them to shoot meltas at boyz and not MANZ

Edit : captain collius sniped me

Thanks

DAaddict wrote:
I find that the new codex is quite competitive. No not overpowering but effective.

The frustration is the marked troops -berzerkers noise maines, 1000 sons, plague marins - are truly not that competitive because they are overcosted. However if you go with basic CSM as a core you will find you have a large number of troops with decent firepower.

The other disappointment for me is that the vehicles and characters are rather lackluster. This is either through cost or effectiveness - they just don't excite me.

So as long as you look at a core of CSM, Havocs and perhaps chosen or bikers, they are a very lethal force with numbers and firepower and even decent CC ability as an option.

I disagree with that the cult guys are over costed. Its just that the things you are comparing them to are undercosted. You can't tell me that a 17 point noise marine is overcosted when comparing it to a bolter tac marine. This book was obviously not subjected to the Ward Codex creep. So don't compare the guys to the cheep powerstuff of the power houses, but look at the other mid to highish range codexs and you will see stuff pointed about right where it should be.

 Jayden63 wrote:



I disagree with that the cult guys are over costed. Its just that the things you are comparing them to are undercosted. You can't tell me that a 17 point noise marine is overcosted when comparing it to a bolter tac marine. This book was obviously not subjected to the Ward Codex creep. So don't compare the guys to the cheep powerstuff of the power houses, but look at the other mid to highish range codexs and you will see stuff pointed about right where it should be.

That is exactly the point... A sternguard costs 25, provides 2 CC attacks, and has the bolter ammo to be flexible to every situation. It stands heads above a tactical marine and costs a lot but is still valuable... Chaos specials are very specialized versions of sternguard and cost effectively as much but aren't flexible to the needs.
I am not saying people should never take them but you cannot build a 4th ed codex named marine army and be competitive. You can still have a specialist unit but you would be a fool to build a dedicated 1000 sons or berzerker army.

Now noise marines and plague marines are debatable but you are giving up a lot in numbers to do it. Pure plague marines may work against some armies but against hoards, it is going to be behind the 8 ball in comparison to regular CSM. The only advantage is fearless, and that can be mitigated by VoTLW and attached commanders. Noise marines can provide a lot of firepower but that gets cut down by the sheer cost.

 Jayden63 wrote:

DAaddict wrote:
I find that the new codex is quite competitive. No not overpowering but effective.

The frustration is the marked troops -berzerkers noise maines, 1000 sons, plague marins - are truly not that competitive because they are overcosted. However if you go with basic CSM as a core you will find you have a large number of troops with decent firepower.

The other disappointment for me is that the vehicles and characters are rather lackluster. This is either through cost or effectiveness - they just don't excite me.

So as long as you look at a core of CSM, Havocs and perhaps chosen or bikers, they are a very lethal force with numbers and firepower and even decent CC ability as an option.

I disagree with that the cult guys are over costed. Its just that the things you are comparing them to are undercosted. You can't tell me that a 17 point noise marine is overcosted when comparing it to a bolter tac marine. This book was obviously not subjected to the Ward Codex creep. So don't compare the guys to the cheep powerstuff of the power houses, but look at the other mid to highish range codexs and you will see stuff pointed about right where it should be.

Except the tac marine is overcosted and the space marine codex is a mid-tier ward codex.

Noise marines are actually priced right, it's just the sonic guns are overpriced, alongside the whole issue behind the blastmaster.

DAaddict wrote:
The only advantage is fearless.

And better durability. Lets not forget that they are tougher-point for point than CSM vs hoards.

Oh, and in assault. Lets not forget that PMs are better in assault than CSMs due to the poisoned weapons.

And shooting. Don't forget that you can have 2 PGs for every 5 PMs.




PMs are not quite as good as GHs, but their close.

love that video.... It does drive a point home here to doesn't it... lol

I really enjoy the Chaos codex, especially as I play more games and get a feel for how things play out in practice rather than simply looking at how things work on paper.

There are some definite misfires in the codex that come mind and include Mutilators, Warp Talons, the cost of the Daemon Prince, lack of Land Raider options (can't even upgrade the turret), and some other things.

To someone who says that Terminators got nerfed, I ask how? Let me point out a couple of things:
• CSM do not get Storm Bolters, but are the cheapest for a unit of five at 157 points, and that's with combi-bolters and power weapons.
• If you take it a step further and give CSM Terminators power fists and the champion a power weapon (a la Loyalists), they are 185, 15 points cheaper than Black Templar, Blood Angels, and Space Marines.
• If you give them marks, it will drive their price up, but on the other hand, Loyalists can't get T5 or a 4++ save.

I won't argue Combi-bolter vs. Storm Bolter as I personally believe that the SB is a better gun...we have what we have and have to deal with it.

As a CSM player, I'm glad that we didn't get a GK or Necrons level codex. I don't want CSM having the wide spread hate that those two armies get. I wish there were a few things done differently, but I'm happy with my upper mid-tier army, which is where I feel that they belong.

Of course, Dark Angels will come out and I'll cry a little Nurgle tear.

 labmouse42 wrote:

DAaddict wrote:
The only advantage is fearless.

And better durability. Lets not forget that they are tougher-point for point than CSM vs hoards.

Oh, and in assault. Lets not forget that PMs are better in assault than CSMs due to the poisoned weapons.

And shooting. Don't forget that you can have 2 PGs for every 5 PMs.

PMs are not quite as good as GHs, but their close.

I was not speaking about PM but about all the named marines... However I question the value of even PM. 5 PM with 2 PG is going to cost you 145 Almost for the same cost I can get 10 naked CSM with 2 PG. Of course I lose the survivability but also - extrapolating out the core... If you fill all 6 troop slots, you have 30 plague marines where as I have 60 CSM with the same number of plasma shots. (870 vs 960 pts) I have said it is questionable which is better in this case (CSM vs PM). My point it is almost a slam dunk with the other 3 which is the better buy. The only point you have is fearless in the other 3 that you can hold over a standard CSM squad and that can be mitigated by giving them VoTLW.

Terminators are generally more expensive than they were previously, unless loading up on lots of powerfists and the like (if you didn't kit out the entire squad with them last edition, you won't notice any savings), and the Champion pays absurd prices for wargear upgrades for no discernible reason.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Terminators are generally more expensive than they were previously, unless loading up on lots of powerfists and the like (if you didn't kit out the entire squad with them last edition, you won't notice any savings), and the Champion pays absurd prices for wargear upgrades for no discernible reason.

The fact it costs 30 points for the Champion to carry Lightning Claws while it only costs a basic Terminator 7 points, a 27 point increase over what? An extra attack and the Champions of Chaos special rule which isn't really a bonus in this situation. Honestly the armoury just seems lazy , and the fact all models the same price for upgrades makes balance hard to achieve for the codex. I

 kcwm wrote:
There are some definite misfires in the codex that come mind and include Mutilators, Warp Talons,

I've seen a few units that look 'meh' on paper, but are actually much better than their profile suggests. I've not played with them Talons/Mutilators yet, so I don't know what they are like in practice. Ill reserve judgement until I've given them a fair shake.

 kcwm wrote:
The cost of the Daemon Prince, lack of Land Raider options (can't even upgrade the turret)

DPs are not bad. They are costed so that if you don't give them wings, your wasting your points. DPs can take things like 'black mace' for a dramatic increase in power. I've used DPs a number of time, and the trick is that they have to stay in combat. If you can keep them moving from one target to another with as few turns out of cover as possible their pretty good. I've seen one DP wipe out 2 ICs and 2 GH squads before.

Land raiders have a ton of options. Dirge casters -- yes please! Dirge casters are probably the best vehicle upgrade in the game today -- especially with the increase of daemon flamers.
If your wondering why there is only one flavor of LR in the CSM codex, its because the other varients were designed after the Horus Heresy. That's why you see autocannons on CSM termies and combi-bolters.

 kcwm wrote:
• CSM do not get Storm Bolters, but are the cheapest for a unit of five at 157 points, and that's with combi-bolters and power weapons.

Comparing CSM terminators to C:SM terminators is like comparing Ken and Ryu from street fighter. On the surface they look a lot alike, but they have very subtle differences.

Point for point, 31 points for a 2+/5++ model with a combi-bolter, power weapon, and relentless is not bad. If you compare its durability to a CSM its actually pretty decent.

As a CSM you don't want to give all your terminators power fists. You only need a few PFs in a squad to do the heavy work of killing vehicles. Every model sporting one is a waste.

SBs are better than combi-bolters. The difference is that combi-bolters can be combi-melta, combi-plasma, or combi-flamers. This lets you use your CSM terminators as a suicide squad that can destroy land raiders, or they can target specific units -- like going after a T-fire cannon.

As you mentioned marks can also help.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DAaddict wrote:
[ However I question the value of even PM. 5 PM with 2 PG is going to cost you 145 Almost for the same cost I can get 10 naked CSM with 2 PG. Of course I lose the survivability but also - extrapolating out the core... If you fill all 6 troop slots, you have 30 plague marines where as I have 60 CSM with the same number of plasma shots. (870 vs 960 pts) I have said it is questionable which is better in this case (CSM vs PM). My point it is almost a slam dunk with the other 3 which is the better buy. The only point you have is fearless in the other 3 that you can hold over a standard CSM squad and that can be mitigated by giving them VoTLW.

Those are excellent points.

Look up a few posts in this thread and I talk about the point-per-resiliance. 10 PMs will last longer than 18 CSM from bolter fire.

Is it really fair to compare the naked CSM with the PM? They fill very different roles. PM are excellent for mid-range control. They are resistant enough so they can take the hits and decent enough to hold their own when assaulted. Naked CSM will get rolled over if they try that role. Naked CSM and cultists excel at objective control on the far side of the board.

Also I don't suggest a choice between 30 PMs or 60 CSM. 30 PMs is not enough and can be overwhelmed. You need at 40-50 to be durable enough to control the board with no problems. It means less PGs per model, but they still do the job nicely. I speak that from personal experience with games thus far so YMMV.

I've not tested noise marines yet. On paper they seem decent for 17 points a pop compared to normal CSM or C:SM. Fearless and +1 int is not bad for 2 points over a equally equipped CSM.
A lot of what you chose out of the CSM codex would go with style. I like focusing a lot of points in one area and being hard to shift. I like units that are multi-taskers, and can shoot or assault as needed. I like models that are durable so they take a huge amount of effort to shift. PMs fit my playstyle.

labmouse42 wrote:Land raiders have a ton of options. Dirge casters -- yes please! Dirge casters are probably the best vehicle upgrade in the game today -- especially with the increase of daemon flamers.

If your wondering why there is only one flavor of LR in the CSM codex, its because the other varients were designed after the Horus Heresy. That's why you see autocannons on CSM termies and combi-bolters.

When I mentioned the lack of Land Raider options, I didn't meant vehicle upgrades, I meant variations. The Crusader/Redeemer variant might have been created after the Horus Heresy, but that isn't to say that Chaos has been sitting idle. I completely understand WHY we only have one variation from a fluff perspective, but if we have new creations like the Forge/Maulerfiend and Heldrake, certainly fluff could have been created to explain why there are new additions to the CSM repertoire.

Afterall, it IS GW's world...they can create whatever fluff they need. In fact, they came up with fluff for a number of units that didn't exist before, so why not come up with the fluff for a CSM variant on the LR? It wouldn't need to be the same as a Crusader/Redeemer...just the ability to have more capacity would have been great.

To speak to your point about not giving Terminators all power fists, I don't, but for the sake of comparing Ken to Ryu, it's all we have. Loyalists Terminators outside of the Sergeants can't take power weapons, so we compare the closest things we can. Which brings me to my next point...

Vaktathi wrote:Terminators are generally more expensive than they were previously...

Not so much. In the fourth edition codex, Terminators were 30 points apiece and a Champion was 10 points more. So, you're looking at 150 or 160 with a Champ. For the same unit, it's now 157. How is that generally more expensive?

If you wanted to give them all powerfists, that's 200 or 210 points. Again, how are the new edition Terminators generally more expensive than they were before? 185 is less than 200.

The Champion over pays for some of the upgrades when replacing their combi-bolter. The combi-weapons? They were 10 points in the old codex but 7 for the champ in the new one. The melee upgrades when replacing your combi-bolter? Of course they are expensive...you're generally going to get a 2nd melee attack out of it, which can be huge (I do now want to model a dual power weapon Terminator Champion). Replacing the Champions power weapon with a lightning claw, power fist, or chain fist is actually cheaper for Terminators than other models in the codex (25 points for a power fist on a power armor champion vs 10 for the Terminator). Yeah, those prices are REAL absurd.

Ok, so that last sentence was a bit overly sarcastic. My point is that people complain because their perception is skewed. The point that Vaktathi made about the prices being absurd is one of them. If you look at the first section of the Terminator Upgrades, you're going to say its overpriced unless you see that that is for replacing your combi-bolter. They are so caught up in the idea that CSM players were screwed that they don't see how it really plays out. In some aspects, they are absolutely correct...the Daemon Prince comes to mind. Yes, it was too cheap for what it did, but now it's too expensive for what it does. Terminators weren't nerfed, especially when you compare them to 4th edition CSM and current edition Loyalist chapters.

I'm not apologizing for the codex. I agree when people say it feels like the 4th edition 'dex with some minor tweaks. I still feel like I'm playing that army...just that I have some different toys to play with.

My few examples are by no means exhaustive or even how I'd model them. I wanted a quick comparison to similar units and I was able to do that. Of course, CSM doesn't get cyclone missile launchers or autocannons. The Reaper Autocannon isn't anything to sneeze at, but it's no CML. We have no answer for that.

There are always variables that you can plug in to counter my point...that's the "fun" of list building. That being said, this thread wasn't the first time I've seen someone say that "Terminators are too expensive/more expensive than any other terminator" and wanted to show that that's definitely not the case at all. In a game where the 2+ save is very strong, CSM are positioned nicely...especially since the Elite slot isn't exactly teaming with awesome units.