The New Chaos Marine Codex

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**Eiluj The Farseer**

I am a fan of Phil Kelly and I like the Chaos Codex, I think it is really cool, my only problem with it, is that is seems so Pricey! I don't want to just complain about it without reference so let me reference what I mean. Daemon Princes - wow getting a nice kitted out one forget about it. I have not even run one in the new edition. Defilers - even more expensive - nice unit just too pricey to use. Tsons and plague marines more expensive, Forgefiends yikes, Helldrake - tripple yikes (one weapon at 170 pts - when a Vendetta costs 130 pts and it twin linked on all 3 of its weapons...)
Then you have Oblits that are no longer fearless... and now Abbadon can't join a squad because he has all 4 marks of chaos... A lord or a sorcerer of a different mark can not join one with a different mark (I guess that makes some sense - but limmiting).

I love the codex and will play it, it just seems a little pricey for points compared to other new codexes out there... What are your thoughts.

Like I said I will play the new codex and I do like the way it works, but I think overall the point costs will make it a hard one to compete with.

**ShatteredBlade**

Oh, this thread again. Well the common consensus is that it just seems to be 4th ed with 6th ed USR's slapped into it. I sold my Chaos Army because of it.

**Eiluj The Farseer**

sorry man did not see the last thread... sorry

**Vaktathi**

Don't worry about it, you'll probably see this thread every week

The book is an improvement on the previous one, but largely still a 4th edition book. There's some cool stuff in it, but a lot of unnecessary changes as well (defilers going up in cost...) and overall many of the issues of the previous book and the basic paradigm remain intact.

It's definitely better, but unfortunately that's not saying much

A missed opportunity for a truly epic launch. But ultimately, an improvement, however lackluster.

**juraigamer**

The codex isn't the new GK or Nercon matt ward nonsense. Do you really want stupid cheap stuff, in both senses, and everyone playing that army and one build out of that army?

I don't. The points are fine, you pay for what you get. The book is balanced internally and nothing completely outshines something else for a slot.

**Vaktathi**

Nobody is saying they wanted the next "ward nonsense" book, but no, not all the costs are right. Defilers at nearly 200pts are ridiculously overcosted, they were rarely seen as useful at 150, increasing that by nearly 33% after a net decrease in lifespan with Hull Points is ridiculous. Likewise the Mark of Tzeentch, aside from a couple of units, is grossly over inflated in value. There's a lot that's far from useful in terms of cost. By not useful I don't mean "they need to be zomgwtfpwnfaceamazing" I mean, completely not worth it.

**codemonkey**

juraigamer wrote:
The codex isn't the new GK or Nercon matt ward nonsense. Do you really want stupid cheap stuff, in both senses, and everyone playing that army and one build out of that army?

I don't. The points are fine, you pay for what you get. The book is balanced internally and nothing completely outshines something else for a slot.

But in a meta where GK, Crons, SW and IG exist, a codex that's below that curve, objectively speaking, isn't a good book. It doesn't matter if the book measures up to some abstract definition of "balanced" that you have in your head, it matters how well it stands up to the other codexes that actually exist. Just like you can't tell me a Tac Marine from C:SM is balanced when a Grey Hunter who's better in every way is cheaper in C:SW. At some point, you have to acknowledge where the power level of the game as a whole is at, and measure codexes against that standard. The new C:CSM book fails to meet that standard.

Besides, since when does "good" mean "everyone always spams one build all the time"? IG, maybe, but GK, Crons and SW all offer multiple flavors of delicious cheese that measure up relatively well to each other.

**Ovion**

Eiluj The Farseer wrote:I am a fan of Phil Kelly and I like the Chaos Codex, I think it is really cool, my only problem with it, is that is seems so Pricey! I don't want to just complain about it without reference so let me reference what I mean. Daemon Princes - wow getting a nice kitted out one forget about it. I have not even run one in the new edition. Defilers - even more expensive - nice unit just too pricey to use. Tsons and plague marines more expensive, Forgefiends yikes, Helldrake - tripple yikes (one weapon at 170 pts - when a Vendetta costs 130 pts and it twin linked on all 3 of its weapons...)
Then you have Oblits that are no longer fearless... and now Abbadon can't join a squad because he has all 4 marks of chaos... A lord or a sorcerer of a different mark can not join one with a different mark (I guess that makes some sense - but limmiting).

I love the codex and will play it, it just seems a little pricey for points compared to other new codexes out there... What are your thoughts.

Like I said I will play the new codex and I do like the way it works, but I think overall the point costs will make it a hard one to compete with.

I will preface this by stating I held off starting CSM for 6ish months, because it was fairly well confirmed CSM would be in the starter set, so I have very little experience with the previous book.
Honestly, apart from Obliterators / Mutilators (which went down in points) Nothing seems more expensive than it deserves. (And I'm scratchbuilding some Mutilators and Obliterators anyway, so when I try them maybe I'll be wrong, and 2W Terminators with multiple special weapons IS that good... but on paper, not so much).

It would have been nice to get a few new Special Characters, and a few new flavourful units on top of the Fiends and Heldrake, but it's alright as it is.

As to individual points:
Daemon Prince - yes, it's awesome, you can kit it to wreck most anything, and there's a variety of builds for almost every circumstance.
Yes, it's pricey, but again - I don't feel worse than anything else... I mean, my bare-bones (Termi Armour + Black Mace) Terminator Lord is 150pts. A full kitted lord can easily push 200 points, or more, and when my Fabius Bile turned into a Daemon Prince, a barebones Prince with Power Armour is the same price, and significantly killier.
I'll also be making a Slaaneshy Prince later to run anyway.

Defilers - Defilers are awesome. Sat mine at the back of the field and it killed 2 entire squads of Grey Hunters, a Rune Priest, a Wolf Lord and half a squad of Long Fangs (some.. 500-600pts?) all on his lonesome, just using his Battle Cannon. Kinda want a second one.

Plague Marines - They cost 1 more point than they used to, and are 11pts more than a standard Chaos Marine.
HOWEVER, for that 11pts, the get +1 Toughness, Poison (4+) Weapons (which includes re-roll to wound against Toughness 4 or lower opponents), Blight Grenades and Fearless, as well as being able to take 2 Special Weapons at 5 men. They're generally lauded as the best marked troop. (Though personally I'm partial to Noise Marines)
Thousand Sons - I've heard regularly are decent enough, though not especially amazing.

Heldrake - Ok, yes, the Heldrake is 170pts. It's also AV12/12/10, has 3 Hullpoints, a 5+ invun save, and regenerates Hull Points on a 5+. Its '1 gun' is either a 4 shot Str8 cannon, OR, a Str6 AP3 Flamer that you can place anywhere within 12" of the Heldrakes face. As well as it can inflict D6 Str7 hits against a unit once per turn.
Plus pretty much everyone agrees that the Vendetta is undercosted anyway

Oblits - as I said before... even with Fearless, I'm not sure it's worth it.. but I'll find out!

ShatteredBlade wrote:
Oh, this thread again. Well the common consensus is that it just seems to be 4th ed with 6th ed USR's slapped into it. I sold my Chaos Army because of it.

From what I've gathered... not quite. It's slightly changed, few new units, but a solid book overall, yes a lot of units were simply 'updated'....
But either you're specifically 'power gaming' or this was a fairly childish response...

**Palindrome**

Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
I am a fan of Phil Kelly and I like the Chaos Codex, I think it is really cool, my only problem with it, is that is seems so Pricey.

My list (pure Nurgle) can effectively afford a new Dread despite staying virtually identical. Some things went up in price but some things went down.

**Experiment 626**

The new CSM codex headed in a direction akin to how the newer 8th ed Fantasy books are going... Nothing is "omfg-win-button!1!!!1!', and there's no 'real' dud units. (Defilers which seem to be popular to hate-on are still good and killy and are more survivable than most other vehicles, but pay appropriately for it)

I'd much rather see a couple years of the already well-known problem codices continue to be problems, but get brought down to the 'balanced medium', than see a continuation of 5th ed's f

-up OTT arms race that only invalidates and breaks entire armies!

**GreyHamster**

I personally find it's more powerful than the 4e codex, as the new tools they DID introduce are worthwhile. It's definitely further down the power curve than Guard or Necrons, but it's not down at the bottom with Black Templars or Eldar. But unlike other recent books, it is most decidedly an update rather than a total overhaul, and that is arguably better than the overhaul. However, it does seem like Phil Kelly decided to err on the conservative side whenever he had to make a call on costing.

Access to MoN actually makes Oblits a lot more annoying, as you can't just oneshot them with lascannons anymore. However their new special rule is a definite hindrance. I feel they're just barely worth it as long as you rely on them as a swiss army knife rather than as the primary long range AT solution they were in the last book.

As for the Heldrake, the mechanics of Vector Strike noticeably limit its ability to employ it. You need to both fly over a target worth vector striking, and wind up with the nose pointed at what you want to use your other gun on. Intelligent dispersement of forces can actually make doing this against desirable targets rather difficult. It's fantastic against an army that has deployed with distinct forward and backfield elements, especially ones that operate that way as a matter of course.

**Eiluj The Farseer**

I like the Helldrake, but I think it is too expensive. The hellfireautocannon is nice but at BS3 only 1-2 shots will hit per turn. At least with the Bale flamer BS is not a factor, but then it makes the unit not be able to fire if shaken (no snapfire for template weapons), vector striking is D3+1 I think not D6 and is at S7 which is nice. I got lucky once and penned a leman russ, but most of the time it is not a very spectacular results.
I think it is still too expensive as well as the Forgefiend and Defiler. I like the defiler but man I don't care if it has 4 hull points or not, one pen with a melta and on a 4 or more it explodes negating all those nice hullpoints... I have seen it happen more than once. My nurgle plague marines have done it to a Land Raider more than once as well.

**GimbleMuggernaught**

-Daemon Princes did take a huge nerf. They can still be very potent with the right load out (wings seem to be a must). I've heard good things about MoK with the axe of blind fury, or MoS with the black mace. I still have yet to use one, but I probably will soon.
-Defilers are still pretty good, even for their cost. My biggest beef with them is that i just have terrible luck with them. They always seem to explode turn 1 for me.
-Plague marines are 1 point more, but they also get poisoned melee weapons. +1 point for 4+ poison? I'd take that any day.
-Haven't really used thousand sons, but I can see them being effective if you drive 'em up in a rhino and then rapid-fire a squad into oblivion. Still pricey, but then again that hasn't really changed from the last book.
-Forgefiends are expensive, but can put out some serious str 8 hurt. They can also regain hull points (as can defilers). I'd say their biggest downside is that they're going to pull in a lot of fire because of their threat level.
-Helldrakes don't have just one weapon, they ARE a weapon. Sure, they could lose the bale flamer, but they can still fly around vector striking everything. It won't be as effective, but it still has the potential to do some damage. If you were to lose all the weapons on any other flyer, they'd have nothing.
-Obliterators are still very effective, even without fearless. Considering they're only really going to have to make one or two leadership tests in a game from shooting (and that's only if you run them in squads), it probably won't even come into play. With nurgle, they're also T5, making them immune to all instant death short of str 10. I've still had great success with them.
-Abbadon can still hang out with unmarked buddies, and overall got much more potent IMO.

EDIT: Double post

**Ovion**

I stand corrected, Yes it IS D3+1,
The Heldrakes being D3+1, Str7, AP3 hits.
Also - BS3 should be an average of 2.

I don't have my Heldrakes yet, and they'll be magnetised regardless, but I'll be leaning towards the Hades Autocannon over the Baleflamer.

Eiluj The Farseer wrote:I think it is still too expensive as well as the Forgefiend and Defiler. I like the defiler but man I don't care if it has 4 hull points or not, one pen with a melta and on a 4 or more it explodes negating all those nice hullpoints... I have seen it happen more than once. My nurgle plague marines have done it to a Land Raider more than once as well.

Chance you take with anything that it'll die before being useful.
I've had Necrons Deepstrike in and murder my Broadsides with 2+ flamers that ignore armour,

GimbleMuggernaught wrote:-Forgefiends are expensive, but can put out some serious str 8 hurt. They can also regain hull points (as can defilers). I'd say their biggest downside is that they're going to pull in a lot of fire because of their threat level.

That's a good thing in and of itself in my opinion. It's a force modifier - they draw in fire, taking it off the rest of your army.
Like my Talos in my DE army - They'll either get ignored and make it to Rapeface town, or (more likely) draw mass amounts of fire (cos people are generally irrationally scared of 2 S/T 7 Monstrous Creatures coming towards them), leaving the rest of the army to get into position and get into combat where it belongs while the 2 Talos give withering fire walking up the field. 1 of the Talos generally makes it to the enemy regardless, and kills wipes something out anyway.

**Eiluj The Farseer**

When I first got my helldrakes it was going to be autocannon all the way for me, but I really have found the baleflamer to be more effective esp with the AP and ignore cover. You are right the technical average is 2 but most times it seems like less over the whole game. I magnetized all of mine too so they can be loaded out either way. Cheers man and thanks for the input.

**juraigamer**

I saw the baleflamer, and said the following:

CSM don't need the ability to kill troops easier.

Sure, it's great against stuff like heavy weapons teams and long fangs, but you're paying the points for a thing that flies that isn't going to go after enemy fliers.

With vector strike, you can fly over said targets for the bale flamer and still blast the guys vehicle(s).

Any opponent who gets flamered is going to spread out after the first time, rendering it far less effective.

**Vaktathi**

Ovion wrote:
Defilers - Defilers are awesome. Sat mine at the back of the field and it killed 2 entire squads of Grey Hunters, a Rune Priest, a Wolf Lord and half a squad of Long Fangs (some.. 500-600pts?) all on his lonesome, just using his Battle Cannon. Kinda want a second one.

Not typical performance, and a Leman Russ Battle Tank will do the same thing with AV14 for 50pts less, or a Vindicator with AV13 at closer range for 75pts less than a Defiler. You pay for a lot of mutually exclusive abilities with the defiler on top of a poor statline for a combat walker, on a mid AV platform and pay as much or more than a kitted heavy battle tank with better armor.

**johnboy**

there seems to be mixed opinion on the chaos marine codex. i don't know why, it is totally Please do not use the word "gay" as a pejorative. Thanks! ~ Manchu. Princes are mega expensive not eternal warrior are don't do anything especially new from previous edition. there are no new named characters despite the fact that there are as many traitor legions in the background as there are loyalist legions, big opportunity missed there just to reinstate the word bearers or night lords with rules and not just a paint scheme. the models like talons and fiends are nice but don't add anything new or necessary and are expensive in money and points, khorne berserkers are puffs now, they should be the apex power armour close combat unit and they are not, just look at death company in comparison and try to argue they are balanced.....they are not! thousand sons are the worst wizards in the galaxy, psyker level one and they have to roll randomly for their spells one of which is warp charge 2, one kills your own characters, one is anti tank in a unit that can only shoot effectively at marines and the primaris is tollerable at best. Emperors children who i love the background for are no longer a move shoot and assault in one turn unit, they are a Please do not use the word "gay" as a pejorative. Thanks! ~ Manchu stand at the back and shoot like cowards unit, they are the only unit in the whole of the game that gets less effective if it moves closer to its intended target before shooting, salvo has broken them only the blastmaster redeems them and you have to have models 10 not 6 to get it (what happened to favoured numbers?) everything has had its leadership nerfed despite the fact that they have no rules like And They Shall Know No Fear to compensate only the mark of fearless at 25pts+ which can be precision shot from a unit anyway. the challenge system is cack. "i'm a mighty lord of chaos and i'm going to murder your whole squad all by my self, wait what's that, you want to challenge me, ok then i'll condescend to that, and waste an entire turn killing just one craptastic runtherd." there are so many other things like wtf are mutilators supposed to do? they are too slow and have difficulty hanging on to the same weapon for more than 3 seconds why? obliterators who can't find the right trigger 2 turns in a row why? random for random sake, the whole codex is pooh. the lack of fluff really gets me down, where are the iron warriors? oh yeah you just paint some men metal colour with yellow and black stripes. where are the nights lords? oh yeah you just paint some men blue with lightning on them. Word bearers anybody? thats right, just paint your men red, Please do not use the word "gay" as a pejorative. Thanks! ~ Manchu!
i've started using space wolf rules because they can actually achieve more than a draw in a game. Too many GW sycophants out there who bum lick everything they do, £600+ on chaos stuff and they suck Please don't try to get around our word filter. Thanks! ~ Manchu now.

**Praxiss**

the Defiler seems a bit muddled to me.

It's got got enough long range, decent gyus to warrant payign all those points and suitting it at the back, but it's too frail to spend all those points and chareg it forwward.

Either way, mine never (i mean, NEVER) survive past turn 2. It's the first thing my normal IG opponent targets with hsi manticore. When you're firign up to 3 large blasts at S10, somethings going to hit and it only needs a 3 to pen.

**DrDuckman**

My experince with the new codex has actually being very positive compared to the old one, and it made me expand my army quite a bit. I love the fact that now it encourages mono-god themed lists instead of a mish mash of Plague Marines and Khorne bezerkers with 2 DPs at all time.

Most of the arguments you made in the OP are isolations of the bad without the good. For example, yes oblits are lower leadership and need to switch weapons, but now are cheaper, and most importantly, CAN BE T5. This is amazing. Oblits have been boosted simply because of that overall. No longer will they get constantly sniped by Lascannons. It's gotten to the point that noone actually ever shoots at my obliterators any more, cause a T5 2+ 2W monster is not worth shooting at with anything short of a Railgun/Vindicator.

The main things that got really nerfed is DPs and Bezerkers, and DPs are still very good in most situations.

I think people are complaining because they dont want variety, they want SW style undercosted obvious choices. That's bad codex design though.

**AnomanderRake**

The Chaos book is a pretty minor change on the old one, yes, but it's actually a middle-of-the-road army competitively instead of the old pattern of making the new book horribly broken and watching everyone jump on the bandwagon, which is a nice change.

**Praxiss**

I still ike berzerkers. i have tried to squeeze a squad of plague marines into 1500 point lists but they are just toopricey for my liking.

It has given me an excuse to convert and use the hellblade that's been gathering dust for years.

i have also started using terminators more often, but that is largely down to 6th ed rules makeing 2+ saves so amazing.

I was hoping for something bit more...wow when the book came out. I still ike my Chaos army, it was my first army and what got me into the hobby in the first place. But i feel like if i want to win games i need to go back to my Necrons.

**Ovion**

Vaktathi wrote:
Ovion wrote:
Defilers - Defilers are awesome. Sat mine at the back of the field and it killed 2 entire squads of Grey Hunters, a Rune Priest, a Wolf Lord and half a squad of Long Fangs (some.. 500-600pts?) all on his lonesome, just using his Battle Cannon. Kinda want a second one.
Not typical performance, and a Leman Russ Battle Tank will do the same thing with AV14 for 50pts less, or a Vindicator with AV13 at closer range for 75pts less than a Defiler. You pay for a lot of mutually exclusive abilities with the defiler on top of a poor statline for a combat walker, on a mid AV platform and pay as much or more than a kitted heavy battle tank with better armor.

Oh I realise it's not standard performance, but it's still impressive.

In that same game my Vindicator died turn 2 to angry terminators. (Though the Defiler did manage to weather the Long Fangs missile launchers)

johnboy wrote:

Spoiler:

there seems to be mixed opinion on the chaos marine codex. i don't know why, it is totally gay. Princes are mega expensive not eternal warrior are don't do anything especially new from previous edition. there are no new named characters despite the fact that there are as many traitor legions in the background as there are loyalist legions, big opportunity missed there just to reinstate the word bearers or night lords with rules and not just a paint scheme. the models like talons and fiends are nice but don't add anything new or necessary and are expensive in money and points, khorne berserkers are puffs now, they should be the apex power armour close combat unit and they are not, just look at death company in comparison and try to argue they are balanced.....they are not! thousand sons are the worst wizards in the galaxy, psyker level one and they have to roll randomly for their spells one of which is warp charge 2, one kills your own characters, one is anti tank in a unit that can only shoot effectively at marines and the primaris is tollerable at best. Emperors children who i love the background for are no longer a move shoot and assault in one turn unit, they are a gay stand at the back and shoot like cowards unit, they are the only unit in the whole of the game that gets less effective if it moves closer to its intended target before shooting, salvo has broken them only the blastmaster redeems them and you have to have models 10 not 6 to get it (what happened to favoured numbers?) everything has had its leadership nerfed despite the fact that they have no rules like And They Shall Know No Fear to compensate only the mark of fearless at 25pts+ which can be precision shot from a unit anyway. the challenge system is cack. "i'm a mighty lord of chaos and i'm going to murder your whole squad all by my self, wait what's that, you want to challenge me, ok then i'll condescend to that, and waste an entire turn killing just one craptastic runtherd." there are so many other things like wtf are mutilators supposed to do? they are too slow and have difficulty hanging on to the same weapon for more than 3 seconds why? obliterators who can't find the right trigger 2 turns in a row why? random for random sake, the whole codex is pooh. the lack of fluff really gets me down, where are the iron warriors? oh yeah you just paint some men metal colour with yellow and black stripes. where are the nights lords? oh yeah you just paint some men blue with lightning on them. Word bearers anybody? thats right, just paint your men red, £*cking gay as £*ck!
i've started using space wolf rules because they can actually achieve more than a draw in a game. Too many GW sycophants out there who bum lick everything they do, £600+ on chaos stuff and they suck 4rse now.

Good Gods that's terrible. A massive unintelligible wall of text.

Spoiler:

**xSPYXEx**

I like it. I don't care if things are expensive, I don't care if it doesn't have many special rules, I don't care if it's not as competitive as Necrons.

Edit: Accidentally hit enter because I thought it was a different tab.
I like playing Chaos because it's fun. I've never been a WAAC kind of guy, so I like to build my armies with a theme in mind. And even though the Alpha Legion doesn't get representation, the other Legions are a lot of fun to base the army around. When I'm not playing Necrons, I like to play with an Iron Warriors themed list and send in packs of Fiends and have MSU in Rhinos, because it's fun. Sometimes I like to play a Nurgle w/ Epidemius list, which is awesomely fun.
And you know what? Be glad you aren't Tau, Nids, or (D)Eldar.

**Vaktathi**

AnomanderRake wrote:
The Chaos book is a pretty minor change on the old one, yes, but it's actually a middle-of-the-road army competitively instead of the old pattern of making the new book horribly broken and watching everyone jump on the bandwagon, which is a nice change.

One concern is that this was one of the things said about the last book when it and the DA book came out in 2007, and then went right out the window immediately after, and nobody wants to see that happen again.

**Eiluj The Farseer**

I don't want to be taken the wrong way. I still like the new codex and am glad they got an update. But I feel with the last 5-6 codexes that were put out previously, it just has a hard time competing. The area I play in is competitive, which is fine and fun for me too. The last tourney I was in I had some hella bad dice rolls which can't be helped but by the dice gods. I usually finish in the top 1/4 of my local tourneys and I finished near the bottom. My opponents for the tourney were Space wolves, Dark Eldar and Nids. With what they could bring to the table I just could not beat them. I gave a good fight, but in the end lost them all. I am not placing the blame squarely on the codex, my dice and myself are to blame, but I do think the cost of things in the new codex hampers playing competitively. Will I keep playing Chaos Marines - sure I love playing them. It just is a little frustrating.... Sorry about the whine..

**htj**

Vaktathi wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
The Chaos book is a pretty minor change on the old one, yes, but it's actually a middle-of-the-road army competitively instead of the old pattern of making the new book horribly broken and watching everyone jump on the bandwagon, which is a nice change.
One concern is that this was one of the things said about the last book when it and the DA book came out in 2007, and then went right out the window immediately after, and nobody wants to see that happen again.

Hey, for all we know it won't. In know it seems unlikely, but it's too soon to say for sure. It could be that this truly is a fore-runner to the style of Codex yet to come. If it turns out not to be, then let's kick of rage the likes of which the internet has never seen! Or just, you know, resume the disappointment. Individual preference on that.

**Ovion**

Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
I don't want to be taken the wrong way. I still like the new codex and am glad they got an update. But I feel with the last 5-6 codexes that were put out previously, it just has a hard time competing. The area I play in is competitive, which is fine and fun for me too. The last tourney I was in I had some hella bad dice rolls which can't be helped but by the dice gods. I usually finish in the top 1/4 of my local tourneys and I finished near the bottom. My opponents for the tourney were Space wolves, Dark Eldar and Nids. With what they could bring to the table I just could not beat them. I gave a good fight, but in the end lost them all. I am not placing the blame squarely on the codex, my dice and myself are to blame, but I do think the cost of things in the new codex hampers playing competitively. Will I keep playing Chaos Marines - sure I love playing them. It just is a little frustrating.... Sorry about the whine..

Honestly, with the number of Autocannons in various flavours CSM can take, Dark Eldar especially shouldn't be an issue.
Combined with the Templates that can be put down, you should easily be able to stand your own against Marines, DE and Nids.

**Praxiss**

I'm hoping it's just a case of finding my feet with the new codex. i only get to play every coupel of weeks so i've nto had too many games yet.

I think a lot of people (myself included) might be getting shiny model syndrome and trygin to squeeze in the the new expensive models (heldrake, forgefiend, new price defile) into their previously successful lists.

For my next game i plan on going old school and just pick one, then fill up with nice cheap minimalist marine units (they are the same price as a necron warrior now) and see where that takes me.

**Eiluj The Farseer**

When you run a set list for a tourney it does not work that way. I was running a nurgle list, which lacks a lot of range weapons. I unfortunately got Hammer and Anvil with Dark Eldar and Night fighting on turn 1, they did a lot of hurt before I could hurt them back or even hit them. The nids it was a matter of objectives and with their sheer numbers I just could not capture or get them off enough objectives. The SW one was a very close game, even with his squad of wolf riders, poison blades on plague marines really helps, but when you get hit by S 10 thunderhammers, that pretty much makes them go squish before you can hit them back. With their speed I could not avoid them long enough.