So, I've been seeing a lot of posts about people quitting 40k and getting into other games. In our area we almost completely switched to Warmachine. But I was curious to know if that's really a worldwide trend, or just an usual internet hate thing.

EDIT: The question is about your recent preferences; of course, they can change later, new events can bring you back to 40k, etc.

Why isn't there an option that I play and enjoy both and not get so damn worried about who I hate most because of perceived misdeeds?

I've been through edition change after edition change, price rise after price rise since the beginning. It's the way of things with GW, and this is my less expensive hobby. Combat robotics is a hell of a lot pricier..

I quit WHFB, because i lost interest in it.

I'm still kicking in 40K, and plan to remain so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm ALSO into Warmachine

One can play both, you know

Why isn't there an option that I play and enjoy both and not get so damn worried about who I hate most because of perceived misdeeds?

That's the first option.

People who leave GW systems don't always stay away. I have left GW for years, only to return again down the road. There is a lot to not like about GW, just as there are many strong points.

I like 40k and can afford to continue to enjoy it.

People who leave GW systems don't always stay away.

Sure. I'm interested in current state of things. It may be completely different next year.

it's just like threatening to leave home when you're a kid we all know it's done for effect and they'll be back in no time

I guess I've stopped playing for a while due to time but I have no plans on quitting so long as I can still enjoy a game with firends every so often

I don't play 40K very often these days, but as I keep saying, you don't need 40K to play 40K.

While I used to be a 40k only gamer, the price hikes made me re-evaluate the industry. While I didn't find a replacement for 40k, I was exposed to a whole lot of games. I ended up starting infinity after seeing the models. My want for a Fantasy game led me right back to Warhammer Fantasy, far more expensive than 40k.

What I also realised was no games are really replacements for each other. The market is quite saturated right now, but the majority of the games all scratch different itches, even among close games like 40k/Fantasy and Warmahordes, and infinity/malifaux/mercs.

I'm quite happy playing multiple games. I see no reason to play favourites.

I switched games but it was several years ago. I started out hoping to keep 40k as an option but as time went on I drifted away from it. It I was about seven years ago I picked up a different game and about two years ago I finally sold off my 40k armies after not having played them for a full edition and having all my desire to slowly die out.

So is quitting a trend? Maybe but it is certainly nothing new. Perhaps happening to more people in a shorter time span these days.

I've ALWAYS had at least two games going at a time and I suppose it helps that GW wasn't my introduction to the hobby of tabletop miniatures.

At first it was Battletech and modern period (cold war 80s) in 20mm, then it was Battletech and WHFB, Battletech and 40k, then it was 40k and one miniatures game or another, and now it's Infinity and WHFB. 40k has finally fallen by the wayside and will be replaced by Tomorrow's War.

Limiting myself to one game or company is sooooo straightjacketing, I've found.

I think you will always get more people leave 40k than other systems as 1) it's most people's introduction to war gaming, and 2) it's bigger so if even the same percent leave 40k as infinity, the numbers are bigger.

I play a lot less 40k these days as I like more 'adult' games, like FoW and infinity

Left WHFB with 8th as it made the game fully luck-based and took most skill-driven elements out of the equation, but still rock with my Necrons since 3rd.

 chromedog wrote:
Limiting myself to one game or company is sooooo straightjacketing, I've found.

This is true.

For the longest time I was GW only. Everything I had was 100% GW and I hated 'counts as' and I really proxying (I'm one of those WYSIWYG nuts who simply won't field something if I don't own it). I have oodles of BattleTech stuff, but when it came to GW games (40K, Necromunda, etc.) it was all GW all the way.

Four things changed this:

1. The embargo. I was content to live with GW's insane prices because I could get a 50% discount by ordering from the UK. I can still get a 40% discount by ordering from the US, but the embargo killed it for me. I've never been so annoyed at a company, so I actually began to look elsewhere.
2. I saw these. Now, granted, at the time there weren't as many (maybe less than half what you see there), but as a massive Delaque fan this represented something very new to me - actual new Delaque models. I ordered all of them.
3. We started playing Dark Heresy. We started playing Dark Heresy as much as we used to play 40K, and I wanted to expand my miniature collection to cover the things in the various DH books (we do almost everything with miniatures, and thankfully having such an extensive Necromunda collection and an Inquisitorial army helped quite a bit here).
4. I wanted an Ad-Mech army. This ties into number 3 above. I wanted to be able to use Skitarii and whatnot Dark Heresy, and I wanted Praetorian Battle Servitors. And I came across these guys, and also these guys. Again, I bought heaps, spend ages converting the big ones to have heavy weapons, and based a whole new army around them (my near-complete 'Counts As' AdMech army). Flash forward three years and my experiences from using these 'Counts As' AdMech forces are now part of the actual official Dark Heresy rules.


And now I have more minis from many other places. I have pieces from more companies I can think of, have 4 incoming Relic Knight factions from the Kickstarter, and got Zombicide and Sedition Wars and the Bones thing and all sorts of stuff I never thought I'd get involved in.

Unshackling myself from GW's miniatures (whilst ironically shackling myself to their universe via FFG), has made for better games. I still won't do 'Counts As' Marines or anything like that, and I still won't field the things I don't own (don't own a Deathwatch Marine with a Meltagun... then I won't take one!), but I get all these minis from all the other companies to play around with!

I quit wargaming completely years ago & now only collect & occasionally paint stuff.

In fairness though, my main reason for quitting was lack of space, lack of local opponents (no transport), and lack of support for specialist games.

I used to be a GW only guy, but as prices kept rising, I bought less & less stuff, mostly only limited edition, but since the switch to finecast, I've even stopped buying those now, so my main purchases from GW are paint, BL books & occasional Epic.

Since I started on forums, my eyes have been opened, and I now own a fair amount of FoW figures, a few PSC sets, and some Dystopian Wars models, all of which I find to be of excellent quality.

I still love 40K background, but I'm becoming increasingly frustrated with the business practises of GW.

When I started GW wasn't the big fish it is now.
We player all manner of games, mainly small games long lost to the mists of time, and others such as Mechwarrior.

I mainly play 40k, but I play pretty much anything else that interests me.
My friends and I have drifted in and out of many systems.
Sometimes 40k is in the ascendant, sometimes WFB. FoW was top dog for quite some time, as have been Warmahordes, Urban War, Epic, Blood Bowl, Necromunda, and many others.

When I started wargaming in the mid-90s, GW was the pinnacle of coolness. If you could play Warhammer, tou were awesome. Now, it seems as though GW players are a bunch of whining little nellies, always complaining that their lists were handicapped by stupid rules and Mat Ward. I put a lot of the blame of Magic and the tournament circuits. Before tourneys were a big deal, PEOPLE played games for (gasp!) FUN?!?!??

GW is one of the oldest companies in the business. They have been making some boneheaded decisions as of late, but what corporatikns aren't lately?

I have put the offer out there to the complainers that solitaire is a good, cheap game, but I have yet to see any takers...

Of course have kept all my 40k/WFB stuff, but play a whole slew of different games these days.

Don't understand why there seems to be an 'either/or' attitude towards gaming systems to be honest. We should count ourselves lucky that there are so many options, something to suit all tastes, and we are like people stood underneath a fruit tree and able to pick and choose what we want to munch on

I have to wargame on a limited budget. So, when they rose the prices on nearly all minis, AND came out with a new ruleset that was even more expensive than any single rule book i've seen before, my wife basically told me to quit (though I told her I already decided that)

I haven't quite wargaming, I have just found alternatives. Now, I am able to play WM/H, Hell Dorado, and Malifaux, and all for a much better piece of my gaming budget than I ever got from 40k.


@SoloFalcon Yep, solitaire is amazing, and I play on occasion (even the 'analog' version too) and when it came to it, the frustration of dealing with my wife after a night of gaming, OR if I even mentioned to her that I was eyeing another model led to finding a cheaper source of gaming.

I was GW only for a long time with all the classic grumbles that brings, but the last two years have seen me move away from GW into lots of other games.

Gave up fantasy with 8th as I played it for a while, but just wasn't keen on the "kill it with magic" style of game.

Still play 40K sometimes and enjoy it, but I spend the time building scenarios and basically only playing it the way I want to (basically the chaos & fun of second edition style missions).

Big thing forme was the cost of new codices & army books. I had 8 armies for WFB and 4 for 40K at one point and there was no way in hell that I was going to be spending out £22.50 (at that point) for new army books knowing full well that the prices were only going to go up and up as I waited for the new books (£30 now, I see).

As a result, I flogged loads of stuff on the bay and only kept the stuff I really wanted - mainly the armies I'd had since I started back in 91ish. Everything else was out of the door.

Is it a trend? Dunno, but my local club has seen a serious downturn in the amount of spending going GW's way and far more games and companies being played now, which is for the better.

I've quit 40k. Got in just as 5th edition came in, and it was solid fun. Or course, GW's been getting worse and worse over the years, but what finally killed it for me was just how bad 6th edition was for me. Despite the price gouging and terrible customer relations, what finally finished it for me was that I just didn't even have fun with the game at that point.

I still enjoy miniature converting/painting/gaming, but now I'm into other things. Right now, I have my eye on Infinity and DnD (and the upcoming Kingdom Death Monster has me filled with antici... ...pation) . I may come back to 40k if 7th edition isn't as much of a chore to play as 6th is, but that's a long time off.

I barely play WHFB but I prefer sci fi games. Still die hard 40k and Epic, have picked up Malifaux and Infinity. My woodelves are a back of the closest army.

Is quitting GW a trend? Not in my area. Sure everyone "finds the next best" thing to replace the evil GW game of 40k and eagerly preaches it to everyone they see buying 40k at the check out. The list of flops is endless: Dysotopian Wars, Confrontation, Dust, Drop Zone Commander....in the end all the GW haters blow loads of money on these games only to come back to the 40k every time.

I love GW. They gave me a great hobby and let me meet loads of people I'd have never met. Some of the business decision the company makes seem dumb to me, but overall they deliver high quality models and stability. What do I mean by stability? Simply put, I can go into virtually any FLGS anywhere in my state and pick up a 40k or WHFB game every time. I'm lucky to do half as well finding WM games. The awesome 40k artwork and fluff keep in in love of GW's universe.

I am not against playing non-GW games, I've just been mostly disappointed by them or the people who play them. I never see a 40k player demean a WM player for collecting Cygnar, but as soon as I buy a Falcon for my Eldar I am "Supporting the evil empire". It's funny to see "G'dub Haters get worked up. I just do not see what the big deal it. We are gamers, we play to have fun. To some that means tourney's and others it means casual fluff battles but the end desire is the same. There is a enough crap in the world to worry about, so why make a big deal about what company's toy soldiers you play with? I have both PP and GW armies because I like the models, but I will pick game of Fantasy or 40k over WM anytime due to better fluff.

I do not see quitting GW as a trend in my area. There will be always be "G'dub haters" but who cares?

Cheers,
TSL

I played WH40k for a long while when I was younger back in the 4th edition days. We got 5th and stopped playing all together sometime after that. Spent most of my free time on console gaming and more recently, cars. I also played battletech with a group of guys for a bit but that died off. But 6th edition came out and despite some issues that both my mate and I have had army-wise we both have had fun playing the few games we did. And now I've got one of my employees back into it. Hopefully after christmas time we can get back to playing regularly. There also seems to be quite a crew playing locally.

I've also found X-wing to be a great use of my time. Mainly because it is really easy to play, quick and mostly balanced.(except for one empire setup, the rest of the style lists play well against each other.)

My mate wants to pick up Heavy Gear. Giving how cheap it seems to be I am game for it. It also gives me a solid mech game back.

Interesting choice of language there, a lot of use of the word 'hate', but then what else to expect from a Sith Lord?

I will say again: why the artificial divide between games systems? Why do people feel the need to treat it like they are supporting a football team and rail against their 'enemies' ?

Interesting choice of language there, a lot of use of the word 'hate', but then what else to expect from a Sith Lord?

I take that as a compliment. After all, how can one properly nerd-rage if one does not deal in absolutes?

I will say again: why the artificial divide between games systems? Why do people feel the need to treat it like they are supporting a football team and rail against their 'enemies' ?

I still do not get the animosity between groups. It reminds me of the flame wars between tourney players about "Comp vs. No Comp". I play to have fun. When I was younger I took gaming too seriously and wanted to win no matter what. Now, I just enjoy the battle with its moments of ridiculous luck and awesome heroics. I play WM solely because I like the models for Searforge, that's it. The rules are nice, but there is no room my creativity unlike 40k where I can DIY all day long. In the end I guess I do not care about the animosity as I just won;t play against people with a negative attitude regardless of what system we use.

I started playing 40k in 2nd edition and quit about a 9 months ago. Just felt that 40k had run its course with me and went into better games with better rule sets

why the artificial divide between games systems

Well, for one thing, you need to invest considerable time and money to get into one of major games (40k or WMH for sure).

Then there's a situation like when there's like 5 guys in our area who are interested in wargames, and they mostly like one single thing. Oh, and they can be super competitive and do not like fun, that's one of the reasons I pestered and annoyed them for like half a year to make them even try Warmachine, next thing you know - Warmachine is their new only thing, 40k is suddenly boring and being sold because noone plays it. I kinda want to try Infinity now, but I don't even want to think how much time it will take

So there are valid situations for a single game choice.

I've quit 40k solely on cost basis, I've played Orks since 2nd, but it's getting to the point now where I would like to expand into other forces, but the buy-in cost for me is now way too high to make it worth my time (considering my hobby budget it typically <£15 per month).

I still love 40k, but if GW wants my attention anymore they are seriously going to have to lower their prices.

I want to move into other games, but I just haven't found one that seems to have:

the right pricing levels

an abundance of enthusiastic, local players

Tried Bushido, seemed to be a lot of love when it came out and largely ignored now. Tried Dystopian wars, love the models, hate the pace of the game (one of the slowest-to-play rulesets IMHO). Would like to get into something like Relics/etc, but it seems difficult to drum up interest for anything outside 40K/FoW...

8th ed. Fantasy is just plain bad. 6th ed. 40k is very similar and an obvious money grab so I stopped playing both. I still have the models because I like them, but playing just isn't fun.

Ive looked at other games and they simply do not interest me. Its the look and fluff of 40K that keeps me around. However, I dont get out to game much anymore. GW's inability to properly update and balance the game combined with the flakiness of local players keeps it an at-home hobby for me.

 Ascalam wrote:
...It's the way of things with GW, and this is my less expensive hobby...

I agree here. I play guitar and I'm at the point that a new guitar will cost quite a deal more than a new army would. Hell, I also like computers and building a decent machine that will be outdated in six months just to play a couple of video games would cost the same or more than a new 40k or WHFB army.

The same quitters who quit last year and the year before are the same quitters who quit this year. They 'quit' because they want to brag on a forum how wronged they were, how everyone who plays are sheeple and how smart they are for quitting.

And they then let slip through threads when new models show up, "Oh, I quit, but I have to get that model." and then they seem to still be playing the game and say things like "Oh, I quit but I still play the game." Then 6th came out so they had to buy a new rulebook and handful of models to be legal but they still 'quit'.

The only people I know who have legitimately quit are the fantasy players, and that is because the ruleset is awful and theys imply don't want to play it. There are no real alternative uses for their models either. Those players have mothballed their armies and have stopped buying.

40k people are still injecting plasticcrack between their toes while saying they ragequit everything GW does anything.

Personally, Kickstarter took a lot of my 2012 money which probably would have gone to PP and GW. I buy models I am primary interested in painting and there have been some great new stuff. I am probably going to sell my fantasy O&G army (for a amazingly great deal if someone wants it) and just maintain with my 40k until a new model comes out.

I don't see why people need to 'quit' anything. It is not like you have to leave your job to work at another company and give 40k two weeks notice. There are plenty of models and games to play, and sometimes it is fun to change games. The truth is, if you enjoy 40k you will be back.

nkelsch wrote:
The same quitters who quit last year and the year before are the same quitters who quit this year. They 'quit' because they want to brag on a forum how wronged they were, how everyone who plays are sheeple and how smart they are for quitting.

And they then let slip through threads when new models show up, "Oh, I quit, but I have to get that model." and then they seem to still be playing the game and say things like "Oh, I quit but I still play the game." Then 6th came out so they had to buy a new rulebook and handful of models to be legal but they still 'quit'.

Well, to be fair I think that there are definitely some people who legitimately quit. When 6th edition hit, the local stores lost some people and gained others, just as they did with other edition changes. I for one quit 40k when 4th edition came out, playing Ætherverse, WHFB 6th edition, and Æ-WWII instead, as well as some homebrew rules. Once 5th edition was on the horizon, though, I jumped back in and have been having a blast since. I don't play the other games anymore, but I'd be happy to jump in if and when things changed-- and I'm slowly putting together an 8th edition Empire army!

That said, I've definitely identified some "usual suspects" here on Dakka who fit the pattern you've described. It always amazes me how much people on the Internet love to hate GW. I think some people could really benefit from realizing GW isn't what they want and moving on to another company instead of sticking with GW only to decry each new move.

If you really hate GW, bail out! There are other fish in the sea, and the quality level of all games will improve as more and more options crop up and games designers have to step it up in order to compete. By playing games from other manufacturers, you help the miniatures gaming hobby as a whole.

WH 40k is still going strong in my group.

The new game store near my home has 6-12 people in it every Saturday playing 40k.

I doubt I'll ever quit playing 40K, although I might stop buying rulebooks.

As for trends of it, I see about as many repeat quitters as I do quitter-haters - loudly decrying each other - on Dakka. Some people will quit and come back, some will quit for good, some will rage on vocal quitters, and others will tell vocal dissenters to quit. It's all part of a vital ecosystem.

I'm really enjoying 6th Ed 40K but have pretty much stopped buying new stuff - which is not a bad thing as more £10K over the last twenty plus years.

As always, the need for such strong stances on something as trivial as a hobby baffles me. Feel strongly about equality, justice, child abuse or rape or something, but really, am I the strange one for not getting as upset about my toys as I do about paedophile priests or suicide bombers?

GW are expensive, they sometimes do dumb gak, and White Dwarf sucks, but is there any need for words like embargo or boycott? Were talking about a multinational toy company, not an arms shipment bound for Gaza.

I dont buy too much stuff, but if i like sonething and its not outrageously priced, then sure ill think about buying said product, be it from GW or anything else.

My FLGS really only plays 40k and a little bit of Fantasy. I might switch if another game became popular.

I quit 40k completely 18 months ago and sold about 12,000 points of stuff (The entire of both my armies - including Squats and 'Imperial Army'), as i was just fed up of the prices and the way the game was going (particularly in my local area). I still carried on with the Black Library books though, and still played Necromunda and Epic/Space Marine.

Instead of 40k, I started playing FoW and Ambush Alley, and also a bit of Firestorm Armada and a few other games. I wouldn't have tried any of these before, though, 99% of my wargaming life since Rogue Trader had been 40K and it's spin offs.

Now, however, after seeing the awesome models in Dark Vengeance I have bought and built around 2500 pts of Dark Angels! I haven't played with them yet, so 6th may not be any better than 5th, but it's hard to keep away; I enjoy the setting and story of 40k so much.

So i've got the best of both worlds now - I can play with my mates when they have a big 40k game, but we can no also play all these new games that we really enjoy (and in some cases have learned from), and would never have even thought about trying before

It really isn't quitting in everyone's case. My mate for example. We just stopped playing the game when her nids were neutered. We didn't quit, or sell the models or do anything crazy. We just entertained ourselves with other games until we something drastic changed for 40k that would make it different, for better or worse.

I know a few people that refuse to play any other system but the 1 they are currently playing. I myself get bored(and in some cases frustrated.) if I only have 1 game to play. If one has multiple interests than one can just move on when one of the systems or metas or whatever changes. AND just as easily you can go back to it. Selling armies is silly imho unless it is done for space purposes. Similar to some of the car guys that build just to sell, you never get what you paid for out of it. Build it and enjoy it, even if it's only on and off.

I moved on from GW this year and started Flames of War. This is a personal choice though and I don't expect to lead the internet in a GW exodus.

I don't rule out a return to GW either, but I'm going to give FoW a good go for a year or so.

 Bat Manuel wrote:
8th ed. Fantasy is just plain bad. 6th ed. 40k is very similar and an obvious money grab so I stopped playing both. I still have the models because I like them, but playing just isn't fun.

This really. Both new editions of GW's main games are just plain money grabs geared towards teenagers, all the tactical positioning that was part and parcel of 6th / 7th ed Fantasy is all but useless now and 6th ed 40k has adopted some of the worst rules of it. Add to that that GW herself decided to ignore 20+ years of fluff in their newer rules and Codex and it was just too much for me.

I sold 6 of my armies and just kept my initial Dark Elves and Imperial Guard that were the armies that originally brought me into miniature wargaming back in the 90's, hoping against hope that maybe GW will again someday make a rules system geared for people that like to think during a game instead of just rolling buckets of dice.

I'm staying with warhammer as long as there are people to play, but my best friend has switched out of the game for warmachine after almost 10 years of playing together.

Well a quick look at the forum index can reveal trends...

A few years back it was 40k forums , WHFB forums, Specialist games forums, and historical games forums..

So GW or historical seemed to be all their was...

Look at the number of forums for non GW games currently on DakkaDakka...

And IF GW plc had maintained sales volumes since 2004 they would have had a turn over in excess of £300M

So either fewer people are buying into GW .(Thier core demoghraphic is new customers.)Or the same amount of people are just spending much less.

My community is going strong (the store actually doubled in size), however, it's an entirely biased viewpoint seeing as my community happens to be a GW Battle Bunker.

PhantomViper wrote:
Both new editions of GW's main games are just plain money grabs geared towards teenagers, all the tactical positioning that was part and parcel of 6th / 7th ed Fantasy is all but useless now and 6th ed 40k has adopted some of the worst rules of it. Add to that that GW herself decided to ignore 20+ years of fluff in their newer rules and Codex and it was just too much for me.

I sold 6 of my armies and just kept my initial Dark Elves and Imperial Guard that were the armies that originally brought me into miniature wargaming back in the 90's, hoping against hope that maybe GW will again someday make a rules system geared for people that like to think during a game instead of just rolling buckets of dice.

Huh, this seems like an odd claim. Positioning is much more important in 6th edition than it was in 5th edition, with position-based wound allocation and cover saves, models out of line of sight being unable to be hit, flyers being extremely constrained in movement and thus requiring careful planning as to their positioning, etc. What specifically makes you think 6th edition eliminates positioning or "dums down" the game?

 Kingsley wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
Both new editions of GW's main games are just plain money grabs geared towards teenagers, all the tactical positioning that was part and parcel of 6th / 7th ed Fantasy is all but useless now and 6th ed 40k has adopted some of the worst rules of it. Add to that that GW herself decided to ignore 20+ years of fluff in their newer rules and Codex and it was just too much for me.

I sold 6 of my armies and just kept my initial Dark Elves and Imperial Guard that were the armies that originally brought me into miniature wargaming back in the 90's, hoping against hope that maybe GW will again someday make a rules system geared for people that like to think during a game instead of just rolling buckets of dice.

Huh, this seems like an odd claim. Positioning is much more important in 6th edition than it was in 5th edition, with position-based wound allocation and cover saves, models out of line of sight being unable to be hit, flyers being extremely constrained in movement and thus requiring careful planning as to their positioning, etc. What specifically makes you think 6th edition eliminates positioning or "dums down" the game?

Random charge range.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
Both new editions of GW's main games are just plain money grabs geared towards teenagers, all the tactical positioning that was part and parcel of 6th / 7th ed Fantasy is all but useless now and 6th ed 40k has adopted some of the worst rules of it. Add to that that GW herself decided to ignore 20+ years of fluff in their newer rules and Codex and it was just too much for me.

I sold 6 of my armies and just kept my initial Dark Elves and Imperial Guard that were the armies that originally brought me into miniature wargaming back in the 90's, hoping against hope that maybe GW will again someday make a rules system geared for people that like to think during a game instead of just rolling buckets of dice.

Huh, this seems like an odd claim. Positioning is much more important in 6th edition than it was in 5th edition, with position-based wound allocation and cover saves, models out of line of sight being unable to be hit, flyers being extremely constrained in movement and thus requiring careful planning as to their positioning, etc. What specifically makes you think 6th edition eliminates positioning or "dums down" the game?

Random charge range.

I still have yet to see a reasonable argument of how random charge ranges 'dumb the game down'. It's different, and people may not like it, but that's all I've heard - reasons why people don't like it. I haven't yet seen anyone explain how it dumbed the game down.

You can't choose a sub-forum that's largely about bashing Games Workshop and regard a poll there as valid in any sense.

nkelsch wrote:
The same quitters who quit last year and the year before are the same quitters who quit this year. They 'quit' because they want to brag on a forum how wronged they were, how everyone who plays are sheeple and how smart they are for quitting.

And they then let slip through threads when new models show up, "Oh, I quit, but I have to get that model." and then they seem to still be playing the game and say things like "Oh, I quit but I still play the game." Then 6th came out so they had to buy a new rulebook and handful of models to be legal but they still 'quit'.

The only people I know who have legitimately quit are the fantasy players, and that is because the ruleset is awful and theys imply don't want to play it. There are no real alternative uses for their models either. Those players have mothballed their armies and have stopped buying.

40k people are still injecting plasticcrack between their toes while saying they ragequit everything GW does anything.

Personally, Kickstarter took a lot of my 2012 money which probably would have gone to PP and GW. I buy models I am primary interested in painting and there have been some great new stuff. I am probably going to sell my fantasy O&G army (for a amazingly great deal if someone wants it) and just maintain with my 40k until a new model comes out.

I don't see why people need to 'quit' anything. It is not like you have to leave your job to work at another company and give 40k two weeks notice. There are plenty of models and games to play, and sometimes it is fun to change games. The truth is, if you enjoy 40k you will be back.

I dig this post.

I've played 40k since 1995 or so. I've also played many and I repeat many mini games(most now defunct), 40k has been the rock. This isn't just my opinion, its fact. What other mini game system has gotten bigger since the mid 90's? Really what system? O wait, there isn't one.

 Byte wrote:
I've played 40k since 1995 or so. I've also played many and I repeat many mini games(most now defunct), 40k has been the rock. This isn't just my opinion, its fact. What other mini game system has gotten bigger since the mid 90's? Really what system? O wait, there isn't one.

What about Warmahordes, which didn't exist in the mid-90s and is now the second most popular system?

There's been quite a few new systems get bigger since their release. Off the top of my head, Flames of War and Warmahordes have been around for a while now and getting bigger all the time, Infinity and Malifaux are growing rapidly.

The time of GW being the 'rock' of the industry is gone. Other companies are figuring out how to stay in business in this industry. It's not a bad thing at all - embrace it, and play more games.

Mid 90's friends, stay focused. This is the core of my point. I not knocking the new hot systems that are the new shiny object. My issue, I've been through many shiny object game systems. GW is still going strong and producing new rules and minis which is rare in my personal experience of nearly 20 years of table top.

 Byte wrote:
Mid 90's friends, stay focused. This is the core of my point. I not knocking the new hot systems that are the new shiny object. My issue, I've been through many shiny object game systems. GW is still going strong and producing new rules and minis which is rare in my personal experience of nearly 20 years of table top.

No games from that period are really around - that's not my point. Newer games have stuck around longer than games of that period did, even games of early 2000's. They have also, unlike most games of those periods, grown a lot more in the time they've been around. Unless something drastically bad happens financially to Corvus Belli, Privateer Press, Mantic, Wyrd, etc, those games will not be going anywhere. They're very well established now, the companies are profitable, and they're growing quickly.

The idea of going by past trends in the industry is the same mistake GW is banking on. It's not 1995 anymore. Stop expecting it to be.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Byte wrote:
Mid 90's friends, stay focused. This is the core of my point. I not knocking the new hot systems that are the new shiny object. My issue, I've been through many shiny object game systems. GW is still going strong and producing new rules and minis which is rare in my personal experience of nearly 20 years of table top.

It's not 1995 anymore. Stop expecting it to be.

Wow. Really? Condescending approach. Classy.

I play a lot of Warmachine/Hordes. I play 40k too, but sometimes use 3rd party figures in my armies. Not because I don't like the GW minis, but because I simply can't afford anything that isn't second hand most of the time. I have other priorities, like my job and my band, I don't really have the income to drop on two games. I like the 40k ruleset, it's simple, and intuitive, but I much prefer the combo play of WMH, maybe due to also being a MTG player. Just my two cents.

I started playing at the start of the 4th edition. I would play on and off with my friends, and most of us would "quit" not because of rules, prices, or players, but because there was simply no time. We would always get back into it, starting a new army and play at the shops. Sometimes players just drift off.

 -Loki- wrote:
No games from that period are really around - that's not my point. Newer games have stuck around longer than games of that period did, even games of early 2000's. They have also, unlike most games of those periods, grown a lot more in the time they've been around. Unless something drastically bad happens financially to Corvus Belli, Privateer Press, Mantic, Wyrd, etc, those games will not be going anywhere. They're very well established now, the companies are profitable, and they're growing quickly.

The idea of going by past trends in the industry is the same mistake GW is banking on. It's not 1995 anymore. Stop expecting it to be.

I think you're overstating the case a little. Malifaux, Infinity, and Warmahordes are all serious games, but let's not kid ourselves-- despite the recent Fantasy downturn, GW is still the main driver of miniatures gaming with 40k, and has also acquired the potentially valuable Hobbit license. Further, many other companies rely on GW to introduce people to the hobby, as none of them have even close to GW's level of outreach. Mantic would outright go out of business if not for GW-- their games more or less exist as a marketing tool to hide their models' GW knockoff status.

 Byte wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Byte wrote:
Mid 90's friends, stay focused. This is the core of my point. I not knocking the new hot systems that are the new shiny object. My issue, I've been through many shiny object game systems. GW is still going strong and producing new rules and minis which is rare in my personal experience of nearly 20 years of table top.

It's not 1995 anymore. Stop expecting it to be.

Wow. Really? Condescending approach. Classy.

No more than telling people to stay focused.

But that's my point. In 1995, GW was the only game that had staying power, because other companies didn't know how to approach the industry. It's now 2012, and there have been other games around for over 5 years now, which are not only growing, but encroaching into areas GW used to reign king (in particular, as much as I dislike their sculpts, Mantic and mass plastic production). GW is banking on these companies, like in 1995, to die out because their brand name will outlast them. They're expecting them to make the same mistakes companies of that era made that let GW remain king of the hill.

They're not going to. Mostly because of the internet. They know what people want, they have the information at hand on how to proceed further in the industry. The biggest competitior is, instead of embracing this era, sticking its fingers in its ears and hoping it goes away, while trying to force gamers back into how it was done 15 years ago.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a GW detractor. I'm still solidly a fan of their games, most of the wargaming product I buy is from GW, and rather insanely, a lot of it at GW Australia retail prices. However, I'm not blind to the rest of the industry, and I wish for their sake, GW wasn't either. Because I want them to stick around, because regardless of the flaws in their rulesets or the prices of their models, I love their games and want them to keep making them, because I want to keep being able to play them. They just need to start acknowledging the rest of the industry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kingsley wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
No games from that period are really around - that's not my point. Newer games have stuck around longer than games of that period did, even games of early 2000's. They have also, unlike most games of those periods, grown a lot more in the time they've been around. Unless something drastically bad happens financially to Corvus Belli, Privateer Press, Mantic, Wyrd, etc, those games will not be going anywhere. They're very well established now, the companies are profitable, and they're growing quickly.

The idea of going by past trends in the industry is the same mistake GW is banking on. It's not 1995 anymore. Stop expecting it to be.

I think you're overstating the case a little. Malifaux, Infinity, and Warmahordes are all serious games, but let's not kid ourselves-- despite the recent Fantasy downturn, GW is still the main driver of miniatures gaming with 40k, and has also acquired the potentially valuable Hobbit license. Further, many other companies rely on GW to introduce people to the hobby, as none of them have even close to GW's level of outreach. Mantic would outright go out of business if not for GW-- their games more or less exist as a marketing tool to hide their models' GW knockoff status.

I never said they did. It's obvious that none of them are as big as GW. IIRC, one of the designers for Privateer Press made a comment that every company in the industry wishes it has the customer base of GW.

That customer base is due mostly to age and better decisions in the past, however. They've gradually built up a huge following. While they've always been expensive, they've never been as badly priced as they are right now. They never had such a lack of hobby support as they do right now. While their customer base is still the biggest, they are making a lot of bad business decisions, while their competitors are making a lot of good business decisions.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Byte wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Byte wrote:
Mid 90's friends, stay focused. This is the core of my point. I not knocking the new hot systems that are the new shiny object. My issue, I've been through many shiny object game systems. GW is still going strong and producing new rules and minis which is rare in my personal experience of nearly 20 years of table top.

It's not 1995 anymore. Stop expecting it to be.

Wow. Really? Condescending approach. Classy.

No more than telling people to stay focused.

But that's my point. In 1995, GW was the only game that had staying power, because other companies didn't know how to approach the industry. It's now 2012, and there have been other games around for over 5 years now, which are not only growing, but encroaching into areas GW used to reign king (in particular, as much as I dislike their sculpts, Mantic and mass plastic production). GW is banking on these companies, like in 1995, to die out because their brand name will outlast them. They're expecting them to make the same mistakes companies of that era made that let GW remain king of the hill.

They're not going to. Mostly because of the internet. They know what people want, they have the information at hand on how to proceed further in the industry. The biggest competitior is, instead of embracing this era, sticking its fingers in its ears and hoping it goes away, while trying to force gamers back into how it was done 15 years ago.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a GW detractor. I'm still solidly a fan of their games, most of the wargaming product I buy is from GW, and rather insanely, a lot of it at GW Australia retail prices. However, I'm not blind to the rest of the industry, and I wish for their sake, GW wasn't either. Because I want them to stick around, because regardless of the flaws in their rulesets or the prices of their models, I love their games and want them to keep making them, because I want to keep being able to play them. They just need to start acknowledging the rest of the industry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kingsley wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
No games from that period are really around - that's not my point. Newer games have stuck around longer than games of that period did, even games of early 2000's. They have also, unlike most games of those periods, grown a lot more in the time they've been around. Unless something drastically bad happens financially to Corvus Belli, Privateer Press, Mantic, Wyrd, etc, those games will not be going anywhere. They're very well established now, the companies are profitable, and they're growing quickly.

The idea of going by past trends in the industry is the same mistake GW is banking on. It's not 1995 anymore. Stop expecting it to be.

I think you're overstating the case a little. Malifaux, Infinity, and Warmahordes are all serious games, but let's not kid ourselves-- despite the recent Fantasy downturn, GW is still the main driver of miniatures gaming with 40k, and has also acquired the potentially valuable Hobbit license. Further, many other companies rely on GW to introduce people to the hobby, as none of them have even close to GW's level of outreach. Mantic would outright go out of business if not for GW-- their games more or less exist as a marketing tool to hide their models' GW knockoff status.

I never said they did. It's obvious that none of them are as big as GW. IIRC, one of the designers for Privateer Press made a comment that every company in the industry wishes it has the customer base of GW.

That customer base is due mostly to age and better decisions in the past, however. They've gradually built up a huge following. While they've always been expensive, they've never been as badly priced as they are right now. They never had such a lack of hobby support as they do right now. While their customer base is still the biggest, they are making a lot of bad business decisions, while their competitors are making a lot of good business decisions.

Rather than try to explain to you that I've played four editions of 40k and have not been in a time capsule since 1995 and that I was talking/referring to the entire period in between, I'll just introduce you to my ignore list. Don't bother to reply.

I'll do likewise

 Byte wrote:

Rather than try to explain to you that I've played four editions of 40k and have not been in a time capsule since 1995 and that I was talking/referring to the entire period in between, I'll just introduce you to my ignore list. Don't bother to reply.

So Loki makes an entirely solid point, and your choice is to set him to ignore?

He wasn't even disagreeing with you outright. Honestly, you're just looking to be offended, judging by what is offending you.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Byte wrote:

Rather than try to explain to you that I've played four editions of 40k and have not been in a time capsule since 1995 and that I was talking/referring to the entire period in between, I'll just introduce you to my ignore list. Don't bother to reply.

So Loki makes an entirely solid point, and your choice is to set him to ignore?

He wasn't even disagreeing with you outright. Honestly, you're just looking to be offended, judging by what is offending you.

This. Loki brings up valid points. By ignoring them instead of re-butting, you immediately surrender to his points and consider them valid...and rightfully so.

Topic: I quit WHFB due to 8th being a horrendous piece of trash but stll rock my Necrons since 3rd.

While they've always been expensive, they've never been as badly priced as they are right now.

Not sure how this is the case-- many items have gone down in price recently!

They never had such a lack of hobby support as they do right now.

In what respect?

While their customer base is still the biggest, they are making a lot of bad business decisions, while their competitors are making a lot of good business decisions.

I'm not seeing it. Mantic is releasing more knockoffs, Corvus Belli is doing their thing, and many people seem to have think Privateer has made a major blunder with Colossals. Meanwhile 40k seems to be moving from strength to strength with 6th edition and the excellent Dark Vengeance set, and GW is currently releasing the Hobbit. If that goes well, there may be another GW boom, as there was in 2001-2004...

Not sure how this is the case-- many items have gone down in price recently!

Uhm? We just had a prince increase of about 5-10% on everything e.g. Necron Warriors going from 26 -> 30€, AB 26€ -> 29€ and let's not start about the Stormraven or the monolith...and don't even get me started on those TWENTY EUROS character models. I mean...wow!

In what respect?

WD offers little to no hobby articles any more, stores remove gaming tables and replace them with demo tables, lots of tournament support is pulled off.

I'm not seeing it. Mantic is releasing more knockoffs, Corvus Belli is doing their thing, and many people seem to have think Privateer has made a major blunder with Colossals. Meanwhile 40k seems to be moving from strength to strength with 6th edition and the excellent Dark Vengeance set, and GW is currently releasing the Hobbit. If that goes well, there may be another GW boom, as there was in 2001-2004...

WHFB (rightfully) took a hard hit sales-wise and became rather unpopular in a lot of areas, The Hobbit comes at a downright outrageous price tag and will hardly sell well and with the 6th now having started a few months ago, 40k will not see a huge rise in 2013 either but rather stay solid at the top. GW keeps their effective monopoly, but a boom is completely unrealistic as far as I can tell based on the facts lying before me. Add in lower sales.

I have other hobbies/interests and if my current interest in 40k would wane then again they would go in the closet to await the next revival.

You don't 'quit' a hobby like it was a football team. I can't pick any of the options in the poll because they are quite biased.

How about a straight 'No' option?

 Sigvatr wrote:

Not sure how this is the case-- many items have gone down in price recently!

Uhm? We just had a prince increase of about 5-10% on everything e.g. Necron Warriors going from 26 -> 30€, AB 26€ -> 29€ and let's not start about the Stormraven or the monolith...and don't even get me started on those TWENTY EUROS character models. I mean...wow!

Sure, some prices recently went up, but look at the big picture:

Space Marine Command Squad in Aug. 2004: 45.00 USD, not customizable
Space Marine Command Squad in Dec. 2012: 35.00 USD, extremely customizable, better sculpts overall, many more bitz included

Grey Knight Terminators in Aug. 2004: 55.00 USD, not customizable
Grey Knight Terminators in Dec. 2012: 50.00 USD, extremely customizable, many more bitz included

Dark Eldar Wyches in Aug. 2004: 30.00 USD for five, not customizable
Dark Eldar Wyches in Dec. 2012: 29.00 USD for ten, extremely customizable, insanely better sculpts, many more bitz included

5 Necron Immortals in Aug. 2004: 50.00 USD, not customizable
5 Necron Immortals in Dec: 2012: 33.00 USD, customizable, many more bitz included

GW price increases do exist and people do get mad, but they aren't raising costs unduly and in many cases you are getting more bang for your buck as GW takes old and expensive metal kits and moves them to cheaper and better multi-part plastics.

GW keeps their effective monopoly, but a boom is completely unrealistic as far as I can tell based on the facts lying before me. Add in lower sales.

Were you around in 2001-2004? I was. The Lord of the Rings boom was *huge*. If the Hobbit is even half as successful GW will be sitting pretty-- until, of course, the movies are no longer in theaters and people stop caring.

Those aren't price changes. They're different kits entirely. You want to look at their price increases, then all you simply need to do is compare a box'o'Catachans when it was first released to a box'O'Catachans now.

"...but they aren't raising costs unduly..."

It used to cost AUD$50 to buy 20 Cadians. Now it costs AUD$96. That's a 92% increase in cost.
Most of the LOTR plastics went from 20 model boxes to 10 model boxes. They did not go down 50% in price.

Stop deluding yourself.

 Kingsley wrote:

While they've always been expensive, they've never been as badly priced as they are right now.

Not sure how this is the case-- many items have gone down in price recently!

If you hang around here April-May time each year, you'll see the perennial threads regarding the price increases (brief summary of the 100 or so pages of threads: "Oh no they haven't" then "Oh yes they did!" - insert your own image of Panto characters there )

Can't think of any items that have gone down in price at all?

They never had such a lack of hobby support as they do right now.

In what respect?

He could have meant:
- lack of official tournaments, or tournaments with official support.
- shutting out of other events run by non-GW groups that used to run at WHW (Tempus Fugitives etc.)
- The GW stores ceasing to function as a meeting/playing place with a reduction in playing tables, less staff/opening hours so less time to use a GW store (perhaps those guys were dwindling in number, but there were still some who only had the option of playing in a GW store, at least in the UK)
- More abstractly, WD no longer running any kind of hobby-related articles. Painting/terrain building seemingly pushed to one side.
- Also, the company becoming a '2 headed beast', focusing only on WFB/40k and LoTR. Contrast with a decade ago where the 'Games' bit in the title was much more appropriate in terms of the sheer number of wargaming systems the company produced, which were all supported heartily.

While their customer base is still the biggest, they are making a lot of bad business decisions, while their competitors are making a lot of good business decisions.

I'm not seeing it. Mantic is releasing more knockoffs, Corvus Belli is doing their thing, and many people seem to have think Privateer has made a major blunder with Colossals. Meanwhile 40k seems to be moving from strength to strength with 6th edition and the excellent Dark Vengeance set, and GW is currently releasing the Hobbit. If that goes well, there may be another GW boom, as there was in 2001-2004...

OK, several points here. Firstly, regarding Mantic had this post been made 2-3 years ago I would have probably agreed with you (arguments over whether there was a hole in the market for 'cheap fantasy' aside), but releases over the past 12 months have made a big difference to a lot of people's opinions. Take a look at the Dreadball/Kings of War threads in the news sections, Mantic have got some really talented sculptors on board (some of them ex-Rackham guys) and are really starting to construct an aesthetic style of their own. The gap in quality has come down to the point where it has now become one of preference over aesthetic style, and the big difference in price is always going to have an influence on that also.

I agree that Dark Vengeance is a nice set, and some of the models are nice, but I wouldn't say 'strength to strength' - really all they are doing is pushing the same old, tired course that they have been doing for the last decade or so. There is nothing really new, nothing game changing or to try and push the industry forward in anyway at all in terms of rules design. I realise it is a personal thing (and because I'm a long term nerd), but I must have dismounted at least 20,000 marines out of a rhino over the years, and I wish they would try and do things to shake up the rules - make something fresh and exciting, rather than just reversing previous rules changes for the next generation of new gamers. And regarding those new gamers I think they too could benefit from a shake-up - games design is not some kind of already discovered science that reached its zenith with 3rd edition, or had its 'end of history' if you will. Its developed like anything else, and GW's refusal to evolve their games beyond shuffling around in circles has meant their core games are starting to look decidedly creaky compared to some of the new stuff on the market.

Also, I thought much of the new Chaos range was pretty crappy to be honest (I refuse to believe the Helldrake was made by Jes Goodwin! - even the greats, those that haven't moved on, are obviously being shackled) - you brought up Corvus Belli, I hate to say it but most of that new range of beasts/monsters and the like looks like something made by Tonka Toys by comparison to what the Spanish company has been designing over the past year or two.

And no doubt the Hobbit will be a success, but nothing like the one that LoTR was for the company.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Those aren't price changes. They're different kits entirely. You want to look at their price increases, then all you simply need to do is compare a box'o'Catachans when it was first released to a box'O'Catachans now.

"...but they aren't raising costs unduly..."

It used to cost AUD$50 to buy 20 Cadians. Now it costs AUD$96. That's a 92% increase in cost.
Most of the LOTR plastics went from 20 model boxes to 10 model boxes. They did not go down 50% in price.

Stop deluding yourself.

Good point.

Furthermore, now keep in mind that point costs change as well. Immortals are now 9 (iirc) points cheaper and thus you have to buy more of them.

With all due respect, but saying that GW does not raise costs unduly is ridiculous to me given the price hikes we have seen in the recent past. Regarding the metal change, just have a look at all the "finecast" miniatures. Former metal miniatures that are now even more expensive. Necron FO want to have a word with you.

I can see that you're very enthusiastic about GW and do not want to talk you down, it's just that reality mostly differs from your personal perception. Ask all the LOTR guys who had their box contents halved what they think about GW's prices

 Pacific wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

While they've always been expensive, they've never been as badly priced as they are right now.

Not sure how this is the case-- many items have gone down in price recently!

If you hang around here April-May time each year, you'll see the perennial threads regarding the price increases (brief summary of the 100 or so pages of threads: "Oh no they haven't" then "Oh yes they did!" - insert your own image of Panto characters there )

Can't think of any items that have gone down in price at all?

The ones he listed are price reductions. However, as HBMC rightfully pointed out, they're entirely new kits. Some kits have, also as HBMC pointed out, not only increased in price, but halved in contents, like Tyranid Gaunts, Imperial Guard Cadians and Catachan, and basically the whole range of LotR plastic troop boxes.

 Pacific wrote:

They never had such a lack of hobby support as they do right now.

In what respect?

He could have meant:
- lack of official tournaments, or tournaments with official support.
- shutting out of other events run by non-GW groups that used to run at WHW (Tempus Fugitives etc.)
- The GW stores ceasing to function as a meeting/playing place with a reduction in playing tables, less staff/opening hours so less time to use a GW store (perhaps those guys were dwindling in number, but there were still some who only had the option of playing in a GW store, at least in the UK)
- More abstractly, WD no longer running any kind of hobby-related articles. Painting/terrain building seemingly pushed to one side.
- Also, the company becoming a '2 headed beast', focusing only on WFB/40k and LoTR. Contrast with a decade ago where the 'Games' bit in the title was much more appropriate in terms of the sheer number of wargaming systems the company produced, which were all supported heartily.

Precisely. In the past, they embraced larger tournaments (though I do agree their rulesets aren't made for them, people DO want them). They've been reducing tournament prize support at FLGS's. Their stores are ALL turning into closets simply for selling stuff and introductory games. They no longer encourage DIY projects like making your own terrain - unless, of course, it involves kitbashing their expensive kits. Their painting tutorials have turned into showing a few stage by stage shots and a few colour swatches, and 'learn the rest yourself'. Shutting out specialist games - a dumb move as they were often gateway games into their main games. Their continual attitude of no companies existing outside of themselves.

While they claim to encourage people into the hobby with their casual rules, they also don't encrouage the hobby at all after people buy into their games. This is a stark contrast to even about 5 years ago. Their competitors, however, are capitalising on this. Look at Avatars of War and Mantic - both make competing products, but they're also partnered with Avatars of War units and characters available in bundle deals directly from Mantic.

 Pacific wrote:

While their customer base is still the biggest, they are making a lot of bad business decisions, while their competitors are making a lot of good business decisions.

I'm not seeing it. Mantic is releasing more knockoffs, Corvus Belli is doing their thing, and many people seem to have think Privateer has made a major blunder with Colossals. Meanwhile 40k seems to be moving from strength to strength with 6th edition and the excellent Dark Vengeance set, and GW is currently releasing the Hobbit. If that goes well, there may be another GW boom, as there was in 2001-2004...

OK, several points here. Firstly, regarding Mantic had this post been made 2-3 years ago I would have probably agreed with you (arguments over whether there was a hole in the market for 'cheap fantasy' aside), but releases over the past 12 months have made a big difference to a lot of people's opinions. Take a look at the Dreadball/Kings of War threads in the news sections, Mantic have got some really talented sculptors on board (some of them ex-Rackham guys) and are really starting to construct an aesthetic style of their own. The gap in quality has come down to the point where it has now become one of preference over aesthetic style, and the big difference in price is always going to have an influence on that also.

I agree that Dark Vengeance is a nice set, and some of the models are nice, but I wouldn't say 'strength to strength' - really all they are doing is pushing the same old, tired course that they have been doing for the last decade or so. There is nothing really new, nothing game changing or to try and push the industry forward in anyway at all in terms of rules design. I realise it is a personal thing (and because I'm a long term nerd), but I must have dismounted at least 20,000 marines out of a rhino over the years, and I wish they would try and do things to shake up the rules - make something fresh and exciting, rather than just reversing previous rules changes for the next generation of new gamers. And regarding those new gamers I think they too could benefit from a shake-up - games design is not some kind of already discovered science that reached its zenith with 3rd edition, or had its 'end of history' if you will. Its developed like anything else, and GW's refusal to evolve their games beyond shuffling around in circles has meant their core games are starting to look decidedly creaky compared to some of the new stuff on the market.

Also, I thought much of the new Chaos range was pretty crappy to be honest (I refuse to believe the Helldrake was made by Jes Goodwin! - even the greats, those that haven't moved on, are obviously being shackled) - you brought up Corvus Belli, I hate to say it but most of that new range of beasts/monsters and the like looks like something made by Tonka Toys by comparison to what the Spanish company has been designing over the past year or two.

And no doubt the Hobbit will be a success, but nothing like the one that LoTR was for the company.

Yeah, that's about what I was going to say as well.

Also, to repeat, I'm not a GW detractor. I'm a huge supporter. I just hope that GW starts making better business decisions again, because I want to keep buying their lovely, if overpriced, kits and playing their fun, if flawed, games.

I still have my skaven, SMs and IG but i rarely play them anymore. lugging them down to my club is just to much like hardwork when my Warmachines fits into 2 small containers and can snuggle down in my bag along with my magic, yugioh, dice, books, etc. That and the fact i can nolonger afford the BRB for 40K. I mean compare its price of around £60-£70 to the warmachine army book that is similar in size and contains many of the basic units for each faction at only £25-£30 depending on wether or not you want it in softback or hardback.

I still have my GW gear and will continue to play but i find warmahordes more fun currently as you can do lots of cool stuff(such as dropping a heavy Warjack on your opponents caster ) and you can have lots of different terrain types(where as with GW youve got to allow room for ranks of infantry to march across) such as rocky coastal areas with narrow rock bridges and the like.

Also try building any of the hoard armys(Skaven, IG,....) at the current prices-£20 for 20 clanrats

I don't plan on quitting 40K, why would I when I love the models and the game?

I appreciate some people have a limitied gaming budget but I don't understand the THIS vs THAT attitude lots of gamers seem to have, especially 40K vs Warmachine.

40K is not my only gaming interest. I play Star Wars Minis, Heroclix, RPGs and Board Games.

 master of ordinance wrote:


Also try building any of the hoard armys(Skaven, IG,....) at the current prices-£20 for 20 clanrats

When I made my "parking lot" guard army, i bought nearly all of my infantry from Wargames Factory. Using their "sci fi greatcoat infantry" I was able to create a 2k point 'death korp' army. The infantry models for the whole army, (3 platoons of 4 squads with command squads and various hwt scattered in there) cost less than 3 of my leman russ tanks.


Dont get me wrong, i still have all of my armies. Some are more built than others. Maybe if costs for things like rule books come down to a more reasonable level, like the cost of WM/H books, I may "rejoin" playing 40k. Until then, i am enjoying the heck out of hell dorado, malifaux and WM

 master of ordinance wrote:
I still have my skaven, SMs and IG but i rarely play them anymore. lugging them down to my club is just to much like hardwork when my Warmachines fits into 2 small containers and can snuggle down in my bag along with my magic, yugioh, dice, books, etc. That and the fact i can nolonger afford the BRB for 40K. I mean compare its price of around £60-£70 to the warmachine army book that is similar in size and contains many of the basic units for each faction at only £25-£30 depending on wether or not you want it in softback or hardback.

MY Infinity army fits in a lunchbox with a lot of room to spare, and is also the reason I prefer to go play it at the FLGS over W40K.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:


Also try building any of the hoard armys(Skaven, IG,....) at the current prices-£20 for 20 clanrats

When I made my "parking lot" guard army, i bought nearly all of my infantry from Wargames Factory. Using their "sci fi greatcoat infantry" I was able to create a 2k point 'death korp' army. The infantry models for the whole army, (3 platoons of 4 squads with command squads and various hwt scattered in there) cost less than 3 of my leman russ tanks.


Dont get me wrong, i still have all of my armies. Some are more built than others. Maybe if costs for things like rule books come down to a more reasonable level, like the cost of WM/H books, I may "rejoin" playing 40k. Until then, i am enjoying the heck out of hell dorado, malifaux and WM

Ill have to think about doing this-my IG is only at 1.5K. I do really want to expand on it but at GWs prices i may have to follow in your footsteps.

Alkasyn wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I still have my skaven, SMs and IG but i rarely play them anymore. lugging them down to my club is just to much like hardwork when my Warmachines fits into 2 small containers and can snuggle down in my bag along with my magic, yugioh, dice, books, etc. That and the fact i can nolonger afford the BRB for 40K. I mean compare its price of around £60-£70 to the warmachine army book that is similar in size and contains many of the basic units for each faction at only £25-£30 depending on wether or not you want it in softback or hardback.

MY Infinity army fits in a lunchbox with a lot of room to spare, and is also the reason I prefer to go play it at the FLGS over W40K.

This is what i am talking about. GW has become so focussed around selling tons of minatures that the rules and army lists now require you to lug an unseemly gakload of minatures around in those ridicoulously huge "suitcase" carriers that they sell along with the minatures at extreme prices.
I cant take a huge case of minis to college-thats just stupid but as i said before my warmachine, and as you have said Alkasyn infinity along with Deepwars and Malifaux and a multitude of other small scale games can be transported around quite easily in your breifcase/college bag/etc allowing you to head down to the local store/club/whatever and have a good game that can be even more fun than the more unweildly GW games. I would play WHFB/40K more often if it did not mean lugging half a ton of minis around.

Oh and for all you people now stuck with your GW minis and no game to use them in- http://www.freewargamesrules.co.uk/ -I use many of the rules off this for my GW minis

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Those aren't price changes. They're different kits entirely. You want to look at their price increases, then all you simply need to do is compare a box'o'Catachans when it was first released to a box'O'Catachans now.

If an old Wych costs more than 2x the amount of the new Wych, the price of a Wych has been better than halved. My point is that prices fluctuate in both directions as GW replaces expensive metals with cheap plastics (see Dark Eldar, Grey Knights, Necrons, Chaos Raptors), and that thinking GW just monolithically increases prices is highly one sided.

But let's take a macro-scale view instead of cherry-picking units to advocate one side or the other. Here are the models I used in the last game I played:

1 Librarian
2 Dreadnoughts
20 Tactical Marines
10 Scouts
2 Stormtalons
2 Vindicators
1 Rhino
1 Imperial Bastion

Discounting the Stormtalons and Bastion, which don't have clear 2004 equivalents, these models would have cost 290 USD in 2004. In 2012, they cost 384.75 USD. Sounds like prices went up a lot, right? But with inflation taken into account, the 2004 models actually cost 341.51 in 2011 dollars. So prices went up by 12 percent over 8 years? Sounds... entirely reasonable.

Every listed model except the Rhino and debatably the Dreadnought also is a better kit now than it was in 2004, with more options and bitz (or a better sculpt in the case of the Librarian), and to make matters even worse, Dreadnoughts can now be easily acquired for 20 dollars (often less) on eBay thanks to GW's excellent Battle for Black Reach starter set. So the real cost of the above purchases in 2012 is 332.25 USD-- lower than the inflation-adjusted 2004 equivalent!

If you count Tactical Squads at starter set eBay prices (12 USD) as well (and note that starter set Tactical Squads actually have the same options as 2004 Tactical Squads), the 2012 bundle comes to 281.75. This is strictly less than the same bundle of models in 2004. Adjusted for inflation, it is a 21% price decrease.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Stop deluding yourself.

How is it "deluding myself" to say that prices have not significantly increased as a whole and in some cases have gone down when, in my case, prices for a bundle of units that I actually use (not specific cherry-picked examples) increased by 12 percent at most over 8 years (with a great increase in model quality to boot), and actually went down if you consider starter set models?

I wouldn't say I've "quit" GW, I still have my armies for both 40K and Fantasy, but only play when I can't convince my son to play something else. For my position in life it's just too expensive IMHO for me to buy their product, simple as that.

It's only because of the embargo that I stopped, I'm not paying ridiculous NZ or Oz retail prices when for a fraction of GW's prices I can build up 5 forces for Malifaux, Infinity and FoW, while also buying board and card games to play with family and friends.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Uhm? We just had a prince increase of about 5-10% on everything e.g. Necron Warriors going from 26 -> 30€, AB 26€ -> 29€ and let's not start about the Stormraven or the monolith...and don't even get me started on those TWENTY EUROS character models. I mean...wow!

So we're allowed to select one or two things and draw a trend from them?

Imperial guardsmen have stayed the same, and flamers have gone down. Therefore on average, prices are actually going down. Stop whinging.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

When I made my "parking lot" guard army, i bought nearly all of my infantry from Wargames Factory. Using their "sci fi greatcoat infantry" I was able to create a 2k point 'death korp' army. The infantry models for the whole army, (3 platoons of 4 squads with command squads and various hwt scattered in there) cost less than 3 of my leman russ tanks.

I'm sorry but if you showed up with a couple hundred of these:



I'd just laugh. Those guys look awful, you pay as well use paper cut-outs if you want to save money.

Not that non-GW models can be used as a cheaper alternative but it's rare that they're genuinely as good as GW models.

I'm not sure I'm "in deep" enough to quit. I primarily collect, build, and paint. I intend to start playing, in that halfhearted way that involves staying vaguely in touch with rulebooks and codices and considering infantry models in terms of fieldable units, but I've yet to actually play more than a handful of games with other beginners (and all of those in 5th ed.) I haven't bought a new GW model in... I don't even know how long it's been, now (my GW abstinence has become a toddler - time is now measured in years with fractional remainders, not double-digit months). I'm still painting my backlog, though, and I still intend to start playing, someday.

Price increases have been the major bar, for me, leading me to direct new purchases toward other game systems, like Infinity and KoW/WFB (all Mantic models, regardless of what I end up playing, hypothetically) - FoW is looking pretty attractive, too, if I ever get a large sum of money dropped in my lap, and I've recently picked up a few single models from various companies, just to paint. I see no point in claiming to have quit, though, just because I've stopped buying, whether for the time being or permanently. I treat the hobby as "the hobby," not "The Hobby" and I'm happier for it. People drift in and out of all sorts of circles and activities. The internet, I imagine, is primarily responsible for the inflated number of apparent rage-quitters.

 Testify wrote:
Therefore on average, prices are actually going down. Stop whinging.

Fish. There we go, if we are going to start writing random stuff that has no bearing on reality, then that can be my addition to this 'discussion'.

Kingsley - Can I ask where you have got that single 12% figure from, when on average most of the range has increased by between 10-15% (as an average) over the previous 4-5 years every year, and intermittently before that?

I'd just laugh. Those guys look awful, you pay as well use paper cut-outs if you want to save money.

Not that non-GW models can be used as a cheaper alternative but it's rare that they're genuinely as good as GW models.

Well, that's something that is entirely down to your own opinion. Personally I think those look better than the GW Cadians. I also think the Mantic Corporation minis look better and are also significantly cheaper.

There are tons of other minis from the likes of Anvil Industries, Pig Iron and Victoria's Miniatures (the latter being ex-GW - might cause some kind of feedback-loop and/or cranial implosion for people who therefore can't decide if they should like them or not?) Those are more expensive, although laughably (considering these are practically garage producers, make short production runs of metal/resin) not by much.

 Testify wrote:


I'd just laugh.

Then you'd have just lost your game, as if it were me I wouldn't hanging around to play you if you were to laugh at what I'd brought. You can feel superior by yourself.

Well, that's something that is entirely down to your own opinion. Personally I think those look better than the GW Cadians. I also think the Mantic Corporation minis look better and are also significantly cheaper.

What he said. There's nothing inherently brilliant about anything GW do, just people that have decided that the cash they've dropped on fairly average sculpts needs to be justified somehow.

I love 6th edition 40k more than anything since I started in third. It is much more fun for me to play, I see more variety on the tabletop at tournaments and army lists take on an entirely different feel. Always some tweek that I can make, I cant seem to make an armylist the same way twice. This is exemplified in the new chaos book. So many choices, the only limit right now is the models and that will chance once I get an order in from forgeworld. When I add the noise marines I am going to convert into the mix, ohhh boy its just going to get harder. Hell I spend more time making lists than playing right now(no convenient game store)

 Pacific wrote:
Kingsley - Can I ask where you have got that single 12% figure from, when on average most of the range has increased by between 10-15% (as an average) over the previous 4-5 years every year, and intermittently before that?

From going to an archive of the GW webstore from August 2004 and adding it up myself, adjusting for inflation, then comparing to today's prices. The "10-15% annual price increase" is a myth for three reasons.

First, not all items are increased in any given increase, so while there might be a 10-15% average price increase on items that are increased, this is very different from an overall 10% price increase. For example, Terminators are currently 50.00 and have been so for quite some time, as they have not been included in recent price increases.

Second, some price increases are really just keeping up with inflation and shouldn't be counted when comparing to historical prices.

Third, some of these price increases come alongside model improvements. For instance, the new Space Marine Captain is significantly more expensive than the old Space Marine Captain-- but that's because the new Space Marine Captain is an extremely customizable multi-part plastic kit, while the old Space Marine Captain was a single-pose metal. So while prices went up, quality did too.

Lastly, some items actually decrease in price. Of the last five major 40k releases (Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Necrons, and Chaos), three of the five (Dark Eldar, Grey Knights, and Necrons) featured metal models being converted to cheaper and better multi-part plastic kits. For instance, in 2004 it would cost you 50 dollars-- 2004 dollars, mind you-- to buy 5 Necron Immortals; in 2012 it costs 33 2012 dollars for 5 of the same Immortals, which now have better sculpts and come with Deathmark bitz...

Also keep in mind that my conclusion is that prices for my Space Marines have actually *decreased* thanks to the availability of very cheap starter set models. Overall, I found there was a 21% price decrease from 2004 to 2012 once inflation is taking in to account. You might say that this doesn't apply to every army-- and you'd be right-- but since Space Marines are the flagship army, and they haven't increased significantly (and have in fact decreased when some options are considered), I think saying that GW constantly increases prices is silly at best.

 Pacific wrote:

Well, that's something that is entirely down to your own opinion. Personally I think those look better than the GW Cadians. I also think the Mantic Corporation minis look better and are also significantly cheaper.

I know we're going off on a tangent here, but this is a good point. Not everyone has the same preferences when it comes to models. I prefer the Cadians and DKoK to the other alternatives listed here. If I were to add IG allies, it would ONLY be Cadians or DKoK (Forge World), as I dislike the Mantic Corporation and the War Games Factory sci-fi minis and outright HATE the Games Workshop Catachans. However, I do like a number of the Pig Irons heads and add-ons. Again, to each their own.

That being said, only a snobbish person would laugh at someone that chose a different look (Wargames Factory or Pig Iron) over, say GW Cadians.

 Leth wrote:
I love 6th edition 40k more than anything since I started in third. It is much more fun for me to play, I see more variety on the tabletop at tournaments and army lists take on an entirely different feel. Always some tweek that I can make, I cant seem to make an armylist the same way twice. This is exemplified in the new chaos book. So many choices, the only limit right now is the models and that will chance once I get an order in from forgeworld. When I add the noise marines I am going to convert into the mix, ohhh boy its just going to get harder. Hell I spend more time making lists than playing right now(no convenient game store)

My experience are pretty much the same as yours in 6th. I have over 40 games in so far in 6th and its been a great time.

Purely anecdotal stuff here, but from my group of gaming buddies around half of them stopped playing when we left college. Another one recently got rid of his last army because he was annoyed with the game (he completely dropped out of wargaming in fact.) One still has his army, and plays occasionally but not terribly often. He hasn't bought anything new in years though (one or two necron armies off of eBay, and I don't think he's bought a rulebook or codex ever.) Another played until quite recently, but was sufficiently disappointed in the Chaos release that he's been burnt out on the game; I imagine he'll probably come back, but he's quite happy playing X-Wing and Infinity for now.

I don't have any real plans on quitting. Of course with my friends losing interest I've been playing less, but the Battle Bunker near me is a pretty good shop so I'll go there for games and generally have a good time. I've been thinking of quitting collecting new armies because, honestly, it's lost the fun it once had... I've painted the same damn Space Marine over 100 times, I'm now just experimenting on different ways to speed paint. That's hardly quitting 40k though, it's just me finally realizing I'm not actually having fun playing Pokemon 40,000.

I'll continue to play 40k and Fantasy because I like the models and I know I can always get a game when I want. Still, they are slowly pricing me out of the hobby.

Malifaux is working on replacing GW as my hobby of choice but the nail in the coffin will be getting more people involved in that game. Players are still pretty sparce out west.

 Testify wrote:
Therefore on average, prices are actually going down.

You must exist in some wired bizarro world where GW prices go down every June, yet your Internet connection somehow gets through to our reality.

The only explanation is that you’re bonkers, because GW prices aren’t going down. The change from metal to FineCost saw the entire range of metals go up in price despite the change from expensive metal to cheap-as-chips resin. Plastic minis that came 18-20 to a box now come in roughly half that amount for the almost the same cost as their predecessors. Their prices go up every June out. Of. Line with inflation.

I honestly don’t know which of our current pom-pom-waving GW cheer squad is more deluded – you (“Prices are going down!”), Zwei (“GW is basically a discounter”) or Kaldor ([too many to quote]). Even before he mellowed and at the height of his “must defend GW against any and all threats” period there is no way that Kan would have said GW prices were going down. No one is that bat-gak crazy.

 Testify wrote:
Not that non-GW models can be used as a cheaper alternative but it's rare that they're genuinely as good as GW models.

This is laughable, especially given its so utterly subjective. "Genuinely as good"? What does that even mean???

And consider that GW models typically have awful proportions (I know, heroic scale and all--it still looks stupid as hell) and are almost always stupidly overdressed.

Finally pulled the IV from my arm, and quit GW for Mantic and Dust Warfare. However, I still have my GW armies and may eventually have to pull them out again, so I took the third option of having GW as back-up material.

Kingsley pointed out a more or less reasonable example where the price increase was only about 12% over inflation over an 8 year period. Now, that may or may not have been cherry picked, but it looked like a more or less reasonable army list so I'll take it. It certainly doesn't refute that prices are going up (heck, it's still showing a price increase) but GW isn't uniformly bending us over without lube. Apparently there are still some reasonable armies out there that haven't taken a huge price increase. I was a little surprised to see that.

And, of course, there are examples of some pretty steep price hikes. Metal -> Finecast miniatures tend to be the prime examples, but fortunately in most cases you'd only need 1 or 2 for an army. Obliterators are my favorite example of a terribly overpriced miniature (Heck, I thought they were crappy sculpts and overpriced at $10, and they're $18 now.)

So, some price increases are fairly reasonable, some are excessive, and some armies are hit worse than others. I suppose we can shut down the internet now?

 Lansirill wrote:
Kingsley pointed out a more or less reasonable example where the price increase was only about 12% over inflation over an 8 year period. Now, that may or may not have been cherry picked, but it looked like a more or less reasonable army list so I'll take it. It certainly doesn't refute that prices are going up (heck, it's still showing a price increase) but GW isn't uniformly bending us over without lube. Apparently there are still some reasonable armies out there that haven't taken a huge price increase. I was a little surprised to see that.

Keep in mind also that if you include price savings via starter set models, there was a net price decrease for that army, even before adjusting for inflation.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Therefore on average, prices are actually going down.

You must exist in some wired bizarro world where GW prices go down every June, yet your Internet connection somehow gets through to our reality.

Way to take words out of context.

 Testify wrote:
Not that non-GW models can be used as a cheaper alternative but it's rare that they're genuinely as good as GW models.

This is laughable, especially given its so utterly subjective. "Genuinely as good"? What does that even mean???

First off, space marines have had it comparatively easy; an IG player would be much worse off, for example. I do believe UK/EU pricing has shot up faster in many cases than US prices but I might be mistaken there (and slight VAT increases do play into that as well I suppose). The point about the guard army stands though; those have shot up in price a lot faster than marine armies (and since it was an expensive army to start to begin with I wouldn't even want to think about it anymore, now).

What context Testify? You said that the prices were "on average" going down. That's just ludicrous. What context could possibly make that true?

"Subjective opinions are "laughable"?"

Not what I said (and you damn well know it). I said your insitance that GW's models were 'genuinley better' than everything else at there is laughable.

One question to ask though, randomly, are you Scottish by any chance?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What context could possibly make that true?

How about the line "If we're picking random products then I could cite Flamers of Tzeentch and claim that on average prices are going down".

Bolded the part you clipped out for your little straw man.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Not what I said (and you damn well know it). I said your insitance that GW's models were 'genuinley better' than everything else at there is laughable.

So you're saying that my own subjective opinion is irrelevant?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

One question to ask though, randomly, are you Scottish by any chance?

No.

Now stop following me from thread to thread and insulting me.

 kronk wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

Well, that's something that is entirely down to your own opinion. Personally I think those look better than the GW Cadians. I also think the Mantic Corporation minis look better and are also significantly cheaper.

I know we're going off on a tangent here, but this is a good point. Not everyone has the same preferences when it comes to models. I prefer the Cadians and DKoK to the other alternatives listed here. If I were to add IG allies, it would ONLY be Cadians or DKoK (Forge World), as I dislike the Mantic Corporation and the War Games Factory sci-fi minis and outright HATE the Games Workshop Catachans. However, I do like a number of the Pig Irons heads and add-ons. Again, to each their own.

That being said, only a snobbish person would laugh at someone that chose a different look (Wargames Factory or Pig Iron) over, say GW Cadians.

I actually prefer the Forge World DKoK models myself, but cannot in nearly any lifetime fathom paying for the army that I currently have, in FW terms. I mean, 3x command squads, 12x squads, 3x Commissars, and another 12-15 heavy weapon squads... that adds up VERY quickly.... And the last time I played my guard army, my opponent wasn't laughing at the "terrible" sculpt of my Wargames Factory minis, he was pulling his jaw off the floor when he saw how many vehicles were on the table (I hadn't started to place infantry yet, and yes, he saw my list prior to us setting up, so it shoulda been no surprise to him)

I completely understand that the WGF minis arent the greatest sculpts in the world, but they do the job that I need them to, there's no question on equipment, and they look good enough that no one has ever complained about me not using GW stuff. It's just that for me, even at the prices I paid for the actual GW product, I could not fathom paying as much for the infantry as I would have, had I bought actual GW product, even at discount.

 Bolognesus wrote:
First off, space marines have had it comparatively easy; an IG player would be much worse off, for example. I do believe UK/EU pricing has shot up faster in many cases than US prices but I might be mistaken there (and slight VAT increases do play into that as well I suppose). The point about the guard army stands though; those have shot up in price a lot faster than marine armies (and since it was an expensive army to start to begin with I wouldn't even want to think about it anymore, now).

Imperial Guard have definitely gone up in price a lot. Sisters have become more or less impossible to field thanks to being removed from stores and losing boxed sets. However, other armies have not seen these sorts of price increases and several units have in fact become less expensive. While browsing the archive of GW's 2004 webstore, I was really surprised by how expensive many things were relative to today's prices. In particular, Dark Eldar, Necrons, and Grey Knights seem to have benefited hugely from their recent revamps, getting models that are both better and often less pricey.

Anything that goes from metal to plastic usually benefits, with rare exception (Marine Dread has been pretty much same price forever, Terminators have always been pricey). But there are some sculpts that went up and up and up every year without change, and then jumped alarmingly when they went FineCost - Eldrad and the Avatar are the two best examples here.

Plus one only needs to look at the blatant price gouging with the Hobbit stuff to see where 40K and Fantasy are headed (AUD$90 terrain boxes, etc.). I'm hope I'm wrong, and it's just GW squeezing the Hobbit bubble for as much as they can before it bursts, but all other price rises in one area have always filtered down to the other products, so I see no reason why this one won't.

@ Kingsley Where are you getting your data from as far as your pricing is concerned?

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
@ Kingsley Where are you getting your data from as far as your pricing is concerned?

This archive of GW's webstore circa August 2004.

H.B.M.C wrote:Plus one only needs to look at the blatant price gouging with the Hobbit stuff to see where 40K and Fantasy are headed (AUD$90 terrain boxes, etc.). I'm hope I'm wrong, and it's just GW squeezing the Hobbit bubble for as much as they can before it bursts, but all other price rises in one area have always filtered down to the other products, so I see no reason why this one won't.

Is this another Australia thing? The Hobbit prices seem pretty much in line with 40k or Fantasy to me, aside from the weirdly expensive "Goblin Town" terrain set.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
@ Kingsley Where are you getting your data from as far as your pricing is concerned?

This archive of GW's webstore circa August 2004.

Using that site and the current US one I've compared the prices.
You said the older armies going to plastic become cheaper, well I got a 1k necron list out of the 40k lists forum and priced it. The list was:

Destroyer Lord
5 Triarch Praetorians
10 Warriors
10 Warriors
3 (the list said 4 but they are sold in boxes of 3 so I changed it) Wraiths

As of 2004 that's $180 (us). 2 boxes of warriors at $30 each, 3 wraiths at $15 each, a destroyer lord at $25 and since Praetorians didn't exist I called it 5 metal immortal blisters at $10 each.
As of 2012 that's $184 (us). 2 boxes of warriors at $36.25 each, a box of 3 wraiths at $47, a destroyer lord is now an upgrade kit at $11.50 on top of a destroyer at $20 and then 5 praetorians for $33.

That is still an increase of $4.. which is nothing at all really but that's an example that is in favour of the metal to plastic conversion.

Imperial guard on the other hand.. Again grabbing a list from the lists forum:

Primas Psyker
Psyker Battle Squad X10 (sold in 3s so we'll buy 12 and use one as primas in both lists)
Marbo (doesn't seem to exist on either page so I am using Yarrick as a stand in)
PCS w/ Lascannon
Infantry Squad W/ Lascannon
Infantry Squad W/ Lascannon
PCS w/ Lascannon
Infantry Squad W/ Lascannon
Infantry Squad W/ Lascannon (that's a total of 40 guardsmen, 2 command squads and 6 heavy weapons)
Leman Russ
Leman Russ

As of 2004 that's $338 (us).
As of 2012 that's $423.25 (us).

It could be argued armies that were mostly metal have stayed about the same thanks to recent plastic releases but a lot of other armies have shot up, so the 'average' has only gone up.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
@ Kingsley Where are you getting your data from as far as your pricing is concerned?

This archive of GW's webstore circa August 2004.

H.B.M.C wrote:Plus one only needs to look at the blatant price gouging with the Hobbit stuff to see where 40K and Fantasy are headed (AUD$90 terrain boxes, etc.). I'm hope I'm wrong, and it's just GW squeezing the Hobbit bubble for as much as they can before it bursts, but all other price rises in one area have always filtered down to the other products, so I see no reason why this one won't.

Is this another Australia thing? The Hobbit prices seem pretty much in line with 40k or Fantasy to me, aside from the weirdly expensive "Goblin Town" terrain set.

Now that is rather interesting. Thank you for the Info. I will compare this to the GW trade price changes for 2011.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Using that site and the current US one I've compared the prices.
You said the older armies going to plastic become cheaper, well I got a 1k necron list out of the 40k lists forum and priced it. The list was:

Destroyer Lord
5 Triarch Praetorians
10 Warriors
10 Warriors
3 (the list said 4 but they are sold in boxes of 3 so I changed it) Wraiths

As of 2004 that's $180 (us). 2 boxes of warriors at $30 each, 3 wraiths at $15 each, a destroyer lord at $25 and since Praetorians didn't exist I called it 5 metal immortal blisters at $10 each.
As of 2012 that's $184 (us). 2 boxes of warriors at $36.25 each, a box of 3 wraiths at $47, a destroyer lord is now an upgrade kit at $11.50 on top of a destroyer at $20 and then 5 praetorians for $33.

That is still an increase of $4.. which is nothing at all really but that's an example that is in favour of the metal to plastic conversion.

Yep. Keep in mind also that inflation means that something that costs $180.00 in 2004 is equivalent to something that costs $220.42 in 2012. So with inflation taken into account, the Necron army actually became less expensive.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Imperial guard on the other hand.. Again grabbing a list from the lists forum:

Primas Psyker
Psyker Battle Squad X10 (sold in 3s so we'll by 12 and use one as primas in both lists)
Marbo (doesn't seem to exist on either page so I am using Yarrick as a stand in)
PCS w/ Lascannon
Infantry Squad W/ Lascannon
Infantry Squad W/ Lascannon
PCS w/ Lascannon
Infantry Squad W/ Lascannon
Infantry Squad W/ Lascannon (that's a total of 40 guardsmen, 2 command squads and 6 heavy weapons)
Leman Russ
Leman Russ

As of 2004 that's $338 (us).
As of 2012 that's $423.25 (us).

It could be argued armies that were mostly metal have stayed about the same thanks to recent plastic releases but a lot of other armies have shot up, so the 'average' has only gone up.

Imperial Guard have been hit hard, but with inflation taken into account $338.00 in 2004 dollars is equivalent to $413.90 in 2012 dollars. So even the Imperial Guard army, who has definitely seen major price increases, ultimately went up by only like ten bucks beyond inflation.

Did you remember to take into account that 40 Guardsmen in 2004 were in 1 box of 20 models for $30 compared to 1 box of 10 for $29?

Also keep in mind that games have increased in size quite a bit since 2004. You need quite a bit more to play at a decent point level today than you did in 2004.

 Fafnir wrote:
Also keep in mind that games have increased in size quite a bit since 2004. You need quite a bit more to play at a decent point level today than you did in 2004.

This is another thing to consider. Grab a 4th edition Guard codex and bash out the points for those two armies. What is 1000pts now might have been closer to 1500pts in 4th edition.

Fafnir wrote:Also keep in mind that games have increased in size quite a bit since 2004. You need quite a bit more to play at a decent point level today than you did in 2004.

That's because your meta changed. Don't use that to justify bashing GW's price increases.

jonolikespie wrote:
As of 2004 that's $338 (us).
As of 2012 that's $423.25 (us).

that amounts to...4% per annum!



Love to see how the GW ragers will respond to this.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Loki- wrote:

This is another thing to consider. Grab a 4th edition Guard codex and bash out the points for those two armies. What is 1000pts now might have been closer to 1500pts in 4th edition.

It'd help if your argument was anything other than "GW are trying to shaft their players", and simply grab everything and everything you can to prove it.

 Testify wrote:
It'd help if your argument was anything other than "GW are trying to shaft their players", and simply grab everything and everything you can to prove it.

My argument is always for GW. However, I'm not blind that their prices have increased as well as the amount of models needed to play at the same points value increasing every edition. Me having a valid criticism doesn't make me anti GW.

That fact that this has now become GW supporters attacking GW supporters means it's time for my to back out, because it's actually hit white knight levels.

 Testify wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Also keep in mind that games have increased in size quite a bit since 2004. You need quite a bit more to play at a decent point level today than you did in 2004.

That's because your meta changed. Don't use that to justify bashing GW's price increases.

If chaos marines in the 6th codex are 12 points so people suddenly start spamming them that is not 'my' meta changing, that is THE meta changing and it is GW changing it.

Warhammer 8th ed is another example there, units of 40 are suddenly the average.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I just don't particularly regard point deflation as a deliberate attempt to sell models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Testify wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Also keep in mind that games have increased in size quite a bit since 2004. You need quite a bit more to play at a decent point level today than you did in 2004.

That's because your meta changed. Don't use that to justify bashing GW's price increases.

If chaos marines in the 6th codex are 12 points so people suddenly start spamming them that is not 'my' meta changing, that is THE meta changing and it is GW changing it.

So you admit the price increases are reasonable? I'm glad we're agreed.

What else could it possibly be? By GWs own admission they are a model selling company, not a rules company, so what else can it be when the rules suddenly make it so people need to buy more models to play at the same points level?

So you admit the price increases are reasonable? I'm glad we're agreed.

I... what?


(god the editing system gets annoying)

 jonolikespie wrote:
What else could it possibly be? By GWs own admission they are a model selling company, not a rules company, so what else can it be when the rules suddenly make it so people need to buy more models to play at the same points level?

Given that the points value of games is up to the players, I'm not convinced of this. People buy what they can afford, they don't take out second mortages to get from 1800 points to 2000 points.

 jonolikespie wrote:

I... what?


(god the editing system gets annoying)

From what we've seen anyway. I can't be arsed setting up a US proxy but if an american user could make some comparisons with ye olde prices listed on the url above, with current prices, we could build up a widespread picture of price increases over an 8 year period.

Also bare in mind it's only the US. Australia I guess would be more tempremental owing to the instability of the currency etc, though I'm not sure why AUS is so much more expensive than the rest of the world.

Is quiting a trend? Hell no, interest in 40k has been on a decline since 3rd, GWs only making profits now because they are cutting waste like no tomorrow. Ive watched the number of stores that carried warhammer get cut in half, Ive seen the number of GWs go from 8 down to 3 (soon to be 2) Out of the 27 people that used to go to the FLGS back in 3rd, there is 3 of us now. I remember 140 people showing up for grand tournaments, and over 1000 on the hall of heroes circuit.

I carried on with the hobby and started working for the company, after you see numerous people get screwed over by upper management for the stupidest reasons it starts to become very apparent what kind of company GW is. After the fall of the Canadian HQ and the rise of the one man stores GWs continued stance with its employees has gotten worse. Ive never been more disgusted as a customer as I have been recently when I go to a store.

Ive said it once and I'll say it again, for some reason GW is at war with its own customers and doesnt seem to understand that they need to really do something about them looking like an evil empire. Ive seen the results of a store ran by a zealot and a store ran by someone who treated it like a fun easy going job, it doesnt take a genious to figure out which one made more money.

Truly in the end only trend Ive seen is the growing number of people that take it lying down and continue to support and justify atrocious behaviour as if it should be expected.

 Ravenous D wrote:

I carried on with the hobby and started working for the company, after you see numerous people get screwed over by upper management for the stupidest reasons it starts to become very apparent what kind of company GW is. After the fall of the Canadian HQ and the rise of the one man stores GWs continued stance with its employees has gotten worse. Ive never been more disgusted as a customer as I have been recently when I go to a store.

Oooh, what sort of reasons?

Point form!
-Like hiring a guy for 3 weeks then closing the store you put him in without telling him then telling him he has to do a 6 hour round trip a day to keep his job

-Have one of the most loyal and hard working employees open a new store and break all sales records for a new store ever on the planet, then told they dont need him.

-Having the head north american trainer give fantastic advice like "kick out all your regulars and start a new customer base" in a low foot traffic area only to have the same person written up for not doing enough demos.

-Harassing managers that have improved the growth of a store by 14% in 4 months to the point where he told the guy to F himself.

-I could write a book on Ash Barker, guy nearly fired me for saying I saw cool stuff on warseer, I was told "the internet lies and all the pictures are there are fake"

and it continues, the worst part is the guys that act like zealous sales bots dont realize there is no "up" in the company, they are disposable in the extreme and dont make enough to warrent the behaviour and policies they enforce.

 jonolikespie wrote:

So you admit the price increases are reasonable? I'm glad we're agreed.

I... what?

He doesn't really get how arguments work. Most White Knights are like that. Best to leave him be and leave the thread like I have (did!).

 Ravenous D wrote:
Point form!
-Like hiring a guy for 3 weeks then closing the store you put him in without telling him then telling him he has to do a 6 hour round trip a day to keep his job

-Have one of the most loyal and hard working employees open a new store and break all sales records for a new store ever on the planet, then told they dont need him.

-Having the head north american trainer give fantastic advice like "kick out all your regulars and start a new customer base" in a low foot traffic area only to have the same person written up for not doing enough demos.

-Harassing managers that have improved the growth of a store by 14% in 4 months to the point where he told the guy to F himself.

-I could write a book on Ash Barker, guy nearly fired me for saying I saw cool stuff on warseer, I was told "the internet lies and all the pictures are there are fake"

and it continues, the worst part is the guys that act like zealous sales bots dont realize there is no "up" in the company, they are disposable in the extreme and dont make enough to warrent the behaviour and policies they enforce.

..
....


Oh god that's funny, I bet they wonder why sale are going down too.

 Testify wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
What else could it possibly be? By GWs own admission they are a model selling company, not a rules company, so what else can it be when the rules suddenly make it so people need to buy more models to play at the same points level?

Given that the points value of games is up to the players, I'm not convinced of this. People buy what they can afford, they don't take out second mortages to get from 1800 points to 2000 points.

You do realise that the price in points in a guard codex for instance, has gone down? Same for the Chaos codex, marine codex and many others?

So if you wan't to play a game of 1500 points in 6th edition it will take many more miniatures than it did to do the same game size in 4th. That is what people are refering to when they say that it takes more models to play a game now than it did in 4th edition.

You do have this knowledge don't you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ravenous D wrote:

-Having the head north american trainer give fantastic advice like "kick out all your regulars and start a new customer base" in a low foot traffic area only to have the same person written up for not doing enough demos.

That is not just in NA, I heard the exact same advice from a GW sales rep to my LGS owner...

What the hell happened to this thread?

A quickie guys:

If you hate 8th Edition fantasy so much, then why don't you just play 7th?

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
A quickie guys:

If you hate 8th Edition fantasy so much, then why don't you just play 7th?

I do! Or actually I'm trying to set up a few 7th ed games since I miss Fantasy so much. But most of my regular group of opponents just prefer to play Warmahordes at this point than to go and dig out their old 7th ed books.

Is quitting GW games a trend? Sure... if you're the largest single game producer in the market with the most customers, you're also likely to have the highest number of ex-customers as well for various reasons. Some may be due to corporate decisions like the price increases and finecast switchover bungling whereas other players stop due to nonrelated issues like work/school/spouse/kids/etc. Unless you've got a ridiculously awesome ruleset that keeps almost everyone playing (GW doesn't....), I'd expect the biggest company in terms of customers to also have the highest loss rate as well.

I am going to keep playing 40k and maybe buy the odd one or two models every couple of months. I don't want to quit as I have an army which I have spent ages on painting and collecting and also have a growing number of Horus Heresy and Chaos books (love the fluff). The last big purchase of 40k will be Dark Vengeance, then I plan to start to pump money into other games.

Well, no one I know plays GW games anymore.

And really, it's not surprising. Their games are strategically shallow, and apart from a couple lines the quality of their miniature aesthetic has been decreasing even as the prices of the minis perpetually increases. Really the only thing GW ever had going for it was that it was ubiquitous and standard.

Basically, GW is the McDonald's of miniature gaming. It's not especially good, but it's easy, and you can go anywhere in the world and have a rough idea of what you're getting with them. Unfortunately for the customers, GW thinks it's the Porsche of gaming.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

So you admit the price increases are reasonable? I'm glad we're agreed.

I... what?

He doesn't really get how arguments work. Most White Knights are like that. Best to leave him be and leave the thread like I have (did!).

Right. You want an argument. I base what I said on evidence, which as I predicted you have flat-out ignored.

Waiting impatiently on my forge world order to come in so that I can start cranking out Auto-cannon toting MKIII armored guys to use in an HH army and my Chaos army.

I really like modeling and painting side of the 40k hobby.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
A quickie guys:

If you hate 8th Edition fantasy so much, then why don't you just play 7th?

Try finding a tournament that still uses 7th.

GW is insanely expensive, last price I checked was new Tyranid Warriors box and it was 50$ equivalent, three tiny plastic guys. You can get 7 half litre bottles of good enough quality booze here for that. I stopped buying new GW stuff after DV only buy used now and those are still expensive thanks to GW prices being so high.

That said for me it's either 40k or nothing, I am not going to invest mind space into another sf/ fantasy fluff, rules etc, not to mention I prefer GW models over competitors which I find too warcraftish or overly sleek or just of lower quality. I don't like overly realistic proportions either, historic games are meant to give me that - I know that bad proportions in 40k come from early difficulties in casting but it kind of fits the ridiculous fluff. Anyway if 40 pisses me off to much I'm done with sf/ fantasy wargaming then and switch to realistic modern war systems or WW2, another set of made up names would make me go postal in no time.

Ruleset is flawed but has it still somehow works, there are changes for worse but there are also new things that are imo good like flyers or directional combat, I can live with 6th they almost crossed a line for me but almost.

btw what's that with 8th edition being luck based and GW being punished for it sales - wise, is that true? Sounds like great news, I only wish them a big slap in the face for their crap rulesets so that would be the one maybe. How bad is that vs earlier editions?

 Sigvatr wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
A quickie guys:

If you hate 8th Edition fantasy so much, then why don't you just play 7th?

Try finding a tournament that still uses 7th.

Oh, look. A strawman argument.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
A quickie guys:

If you hate 8th Edition fantasy so much, then why don't you just play 7th?

Try finding a tournament that still uses 7th.

Try running one if you can't find it. Even then, if your mob like playing 7th ed, what does it matter if there aren't any tournaments? Unless you see tourneys as the be-all and end-all of the gaming continuum?

My club pretty much only plays 5th ed 40k these days (when it comes to 40k). Other clubs I know only play 2nd ed.
I played 3rd ed fantasy (years ago) and nothing before 8th ed, so I don't know if the previous editions were better/worse and don't care.

I suppose like anything it just needs a gaming group that enjoys game to be played in a similar manner.

I've run different Necromunda/Mordheim campaigns in the past that use quite heavily modified rules that (at least we thought) improved the game a great deal. The problem is though going into a pick-up-game situation you can't expect to use those rules, and are stuck with the ruleset your opponent has in their hand - and almost certainly that ruleset will be the latest one.

I guess it's just another reason to make a gaming group in a club or FLGS, if it's one that has a regular attendance.

 Breotan wrote:
Oh, look. A strawman argument.

Uhh... that wasn’t a strawman argument.

He was asked why he doesn’t just play 7th, and he said “You try finding a Tournament that uses 7th”. I think the implications are pretty fething obvious – He plays in tournaments, and wants to continue to play in tournaments, and because no tournaments run 7th, he has to play 8th.

No straw in there at all. Hell... he wasn’t even making an argument. He was answering a question.

I am part of a club here in Brazil and have contact with another one. In both cases, 40K has ceased to be the main game in the club. People who were just getting into the game here quit over 6th edition making their armies moot before they ever got to field them.

In my case, there's still a bit of 40K going on, because 4-6 people have armies that still work. But FoW, Infinity, Warmachine and even Dropzone Commander have picked up lots of steam. Hell, we even started a Mordheim campaign so people could play games and be in the hobby without being jerked around by GW.

In the other club it has been even more pronounced. They are actually holding tournaments of the other systems, where before 40K and Fantasy were the only ones that had enough people to make organizing feasible.

 Sephyr wrote:
I am part of a club here in Brazil and have contact with another one. In both cases, 40K has ceased to be the main game in the club. People who were just getting into the game here quit over 6th edition making their armies moot before they ever got to field them.

In my case, there's still a bit of 40K going on, because 4-6 people have armies that still work. But FoW, Infinity, Warmachine and even Dropzone Commander have picked up lots of steam. Hell, we even started a Mordheim campaign so people could play games and be in the hobby without being jerked around by GW.

In the other club it has been even more pronounced. They are actually holding tournaments of the other systems, where before 40K and Fantasy were the only ones that had enough people to make organizing feasible.

You see, this kind of thing is good for the industry. Those games are good, and are worth playing. They deserve to be played. The problem is when people play one game only (say, they might only play 40k), then leave entirely, selling their stuff, and picking up one other game entirely. There's no reason to do this, and it hurts both the industry and your options in the hobby.

If those people who now play, say, Dropzone Commander, don't play 40k for a long time, that's just normal. They've got a new, shiny game to play. The itch always comes back to play an older game though - which is why you keep at least one army around from a game you 'left'. Broadening your gaming options doesn't mean entirely getting rid of a whole system, that's just moving.

This is why I also prefer to stick to one army per system. You get to play more than one game, and you'll still have regular releases for the armies you collect.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:
I am part of a club here in Brazil and have contact with another one. In both cases, 40K has ceased to be the main game in the club. People who were just getting into the game here quit over 6th edition making their armies moot before they ever got to field them.

In my case, there's still a bit of 40K going on, because 4-6 people have armies that still work. But FoW, Infinity, Warmachine and even Dropzone Commander have picked up lots of steam. Hell, we even started a Mordheim campaign so people could play games and be in the hobby without being jerked around by GW.

In the other club it has been even more pronounced. They are actually holding tournaments of the other systems, where before 40K and Fantasy were the only ones that had enough people to make organizing feasible.

You see, this kind of thing is good for the industry. Those games are good, and are worth playing. They deserve to be played. The problem is when people play one game only (say, they might only play 40k), then leave entirely, selling their stuff, and picking up one other game entirely. There's no reason to do this, and it hurts both the industry and your options in the hobby.

If those people who now play, say, Dropzone Commander, don't play 40k for a long time, that's just normal. They've got a new, shiny game to play. The itch always comes back to play an older game though - which is why you keep at least one army around from a game you 'left'. Broadening your gaming options doesn't mean entirely getting rid of a whole system, that's just moving.

This is why I also prefer to stick to one army per system. You get to play more than one game, and you'll still have regular releases for the armies you collect.

I generally agree. The difference is that most of the people who changed here didn't just see something new and shelved their 40K. They threw it away with great force.

One of my friends had gotten into the game around february this year. By June he had a very nice Khorne Daemon army with plenty of juggernauts, bloodletters, the works. Not top-competitive but enough to have fun with, and definitely much better painted than my first army.

Then 6E dropped and well, sorry, all of that sucks now. Buy FMCs or go home, pal. He tried selling his army, failed to find a buyer, nearly left the hobby and pretty much only stayed because we pitched in to get him tons of bits to join our Mordheim campaign.

Pretty similar with my friend who did the same with nids, making a Genestealer-themed army. Didn't said he'd leave, but he has mostly been around to talk and play FoW using someoe else's army to get the basics right.

Most of the gaming group around here have quit playing GW games as they are just sick of everything GW does.
There used to be around 20-40 40k and 20-40 WHFB players and now there are around 10-15 of each.
At this point the only time I can get games in now is if I go to tournaments and they take the "fun" out of the game.

40k went from having 20+ players around 2007 to having, what, 4 people in my area?

"Yes, I completely quit them for other game."

I so wish this current chaos codex was in 5th ed (which I somewhat played) then now, which I find truly unplayable
fantasy has many drawbacks, but if I just don't use magic I find it plays better (so I dug up my khorne chaos warrior army)
no one really plays much where i am, not that i know, except magic the gathering, which i now focus mainly on, trading off my leftover 40k stuff and painting fantasy here and there

 Sephyr wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:
I am part of a club here in Brazil and have contact with another one. In both cases, 40K has ceased to be the main game in the club. People who were just getting into the game here quit over 6th edition making their armies moot before they ever got to field them.

In my case, there's still a bit of 40K going on, because 4-6 people have armies that still work. But FoW, Infinity, Warmachine and even Dropzone Commander have picked up lots of steam. Hell, we even started a Mordheim campaign so people could play games and be in the hobby without being jerked around by GW.

In the other club it has been even more pronounced. They are actually holding tournaments of the other systems, where before 40K and Fantasy were the only ones that had enough people to make organizing feasible.

You see, this kind of thing is good for the industry. Those games are good, and are worth playing. They deserve to be played. The problem is when people play one game only (say, they might only play 40k), then leave entirely, selling their stuff, and picking up one other game entirely. There's no reason to do this, and it hurts both the industry and your options in the hobby.

If those people who now play, say, Dropzone Commander, don't play 40k for a long time, that's just normal. They've got a new, shiny game to play. The itch always comes back to play an older game though - which is why you keep at least one army around from a game you 'left'. Broadening your gaming options doesn't mean entirely getting rid of a whole system, that's just moving.

This is why I also prefer to stick to one army per system. You get to play more than one game, and you'll still have regular releases for the armies you collect.

I generally agree. The difference is that most of the people who changed here didn't just see something new and shelved their 40K. They threw it away with great force.

One of my friends had gotten into the game around february this year. By June he had a very nice Khorne Daemon army with plenty of juggernauts, bloodletters, the works. Not top-competitive but enough to have fun with, and definitely much better painted than my first army.

Then 6E dropped and well, sorry, all of that sucks now. Buy FMCs or go home, pal. He tried selling his army, failed to find a buyer, nearly left the hobby and pretty much only stayed because we pitched in to get him tons of bits to join our Mordheim campaign.

Your friend tried to field an all assault army that was also an all deep striking army. Sounds like he collected for fluff reasons since power-wise an all-khorne list sucks ass in 5th and 6th alike.

As GW plc seem to have quit bothering delivering decent game play, in regaurds to tactical depth and game balance.

So customers who think quality rules and game play are important probably will go else where.

GW plc belive its core demoghraphic are' enthusiastic collectors'.


''Yeah you can spend all your time and money on several units in the codex but they simply are not that effective in game.But by the time you find that out we have your money and are ready to sell you 'better options' untill we nerf them next edition.''

When I started wargames again, I got back into 40K, and intended to get back into Fantasy at some point. The former didn't really last, and the second didn't really happen.

I think my dissatisfaction stems from a simple thing--I don't feel like GW want me to have enjoyable games, instead they want to sell me stuff above all other priorities. Yes, other companies want to sell me stuff, but with Wyrd, Privateer, etc, I get the impression that they also care about balancing the game and making it genuinely tactical. With GW, everything seems to be a gambit to get more money. Neglecting unpopular armies for multiple editions while bringing out yet another Space Marine codex. Making flying units the new hotness, so that people have to buy allies or fortifications to counter that. The cycle of various units fluctating in power based on quirks of the rules as editions change, rather than their effectiveness having anything to do with their points cost. (I remember a thread from here about someone lamenting having to convert 120 Orks to have shootas to stay useful, which seems insane). And of course, the price hikes for reasons that can include "We now use a cheaper material." and "These minis are based on movies, so the bubble won't last long.".

And so on. GW probably couldn't be more honest about how they're desperately trying to milk the fanbase for as much money as possible, everything comes second to that desire, and they don't really give a toss about how workable their games are. And I don't really want to support such a cynical attitude.

 Elemental wrote:
When I started wargames again, I got back into 40K, and intended to get back into Fantasy at some point. The former didn't really last, and the second didn't really happen.

I think my dissatisfaction stems from a simple thing--I don't feel like GW want me to have enjoyable games, instead they want to sell me stuff above all other priorities. Yes, other companies want to sell me stuff, but with Wyrd, Privateer, etc, I get the impression that they also care about balancing the game and making it genuinely tactical. With GW, everything seems to be a gambit to get more money. Neglecting unpopular armies for multiple editions while bringing out yet another Space Marine codex. Making flying units the new hotness, so that people have to buy allies or fortifications to counter that. The cycle of various units fluctating in power based on quirks of the rules as editions change, rather than their effectiveness having anything to do with their points cost. (I remember a thread from here about someone lamenting having to convert 120 Orks to have shootas to stay useful, which seems insane). And of course, the price hikes for reasons that can include "We now use a cheaper material." and "These minis are based on movies, so the bubble won't last long.".

And so on. GW probably couldn't be more honest about how they're desperately trying to milk the fanbase for as much money as possible, everything comes second to that desire, and they don't really give a toss about how workable their games are. And I don't really want to support such a cynical attitude.

Holy gak exalted

Games Workshop killed my dog and stole my bike.

 Breotan wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
A quickie guys:

If you hate 8th Edition fantasy so much, then why don't you just play 7th?

Try finding a tournament that still uses 7th.

Oh, look. A strawman argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

...because I care about education

There is no tournament in my local meta that still runs 7th, all run 8th, especially the major ones. Same thing back then before I sold my WHFB army.

That's a fair point, can't argue with that one.

But supposing that there was a tournament that ran 7th edition, and you didn't sell your army, would you play in it?

Lanrak wrote:
As GW plc seem to have quit bothering delivering decent game play, in regaurds to tactical depth and game balance.

So customers who think quality rules and game play are important probably will go else where.

Hmm. I've found that 6th edition 40k is much more deep and tactically interesting than 5th edition 40k was. I suppose your mileage may vary?

In my area the local shop is the biggest den of anti gw people ever. I won't bash other systems but man they make it seem like if you play gw you are evil and should be killed. But I always point out I enjoy painting and converting. Other games seem to lack the ability to freely create new models.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
That's a fair point, can't argue with that one.

But supposing that there was a tournament that ran 7th edition, and you didn't sell your army, would you play in it?

Sure! I still consider WHFB the superior game art-wise as the factions differ a lot and come at very interesting themes. 40k suffers from 85% of all factions being boring tin cans.

I'm not saying that 7th was balanced, not at all, but 8th took a hard hit towards randomness and the ridiculously overpowered magic just tops it off. A game mechanic that's fully based on luck and adds nothing visually should never be such a game-breaker. Skaven slaves e.g. are under-costed and extremely effective, but at the same time, I'm fine with that fact as a horde of skaven looks cool and makes the game more interesting to watch. Even people who do not know about the game see that huge unit and go like "Aww, that's a HUGE number of troops! Cool!" whereas when using magic, people just seem to roll some dice and then remove some models.

 Elemental wrote:

And so on. GW probably couldn't be more honest about how they're desperately trying to milk the fanbase for as much money as possible, everything comes second to that desire, and they don't really give a toss about how workable their games are. And I don't really want to support such a cynical attitude.

Word.

Is quitting GW games a trend? I've played wargames for nigh on ten years now. whilst no wargaming veteran, i've seen 4 editions of 40k come and go. And in all that time, every new codex annoyed people. every new price rise annoyed people. every new edition/change annoyed people. and some quit. some griped and stayed playing. some left. So even *back* then, it was pretty much exactly the same as it is now, except people moaned about rhino rush and starcannon spam than aircrons and draigowing spam.

THe big different though, between then and now is there are viable alternatives.

5 years ago.. even 4 or 3 years ago - basically before the rise of Warmachine Mk2, there really was only GW. your only alternative to 40k was WFB, and vice versa. GW really was the only game in town, and you either put up with it, or you shut up. But now? Now playing other games has never been more viable. and more than that, other games - warmachine/hordes, infinity, malifaux, dropzone commander, dystopian wars, flames of war and so on - are getting table time. they're being seen, and they're drawing interest. there are stable, viable alternatives, and thats why, in my mind, leaving GW is more feasible now than it was when i started gaming. I play in 2 gaming groups. in one, its an even split between malifaux, warmachine/hordes and flames of war. in the other, 40k and fantasy get 40% of the table time, with GW specialist games getting a look in (quite nice to see bloodbowl, inquisimunda and epic games), as well as the other 50% being primarily warmachine/hordes. its a nice split, but GW does not dominate. and from my experiences back home in ireland, its the same trend there. Since Warmachine Mk2 has hit the scene, the whole meta has shifted.

Now, its true that some people play multiple systems, including GW games. i think they're a bit of a minority though. From my personal, anecdotal experience, GW players view their choices as 40k, or Fantasy. Players who play non-GW core games, like Warmachine/Hordes are, in my experience, more likely to play other systems.

Now, why must people pick sides? i certainly dont. 40k isnt for me, but i will still buy GW kits for the conversions i can do to my WM figures. I do think age has something to do with it. Without trying to sound demeaning or anything, i find that after a while, people tend to "grow out of" wanting GW games. I know i have. Without being mean about it, GW games simply dont offer me what i'm looking for at this stage in my life, and i've moved on accordingly. i had to laugh a while back, when i went to a scottish tourney near edinburgh. they were running 3 games - flames of war, 40k and warmachine/hordes. a lot of the older games (40s, 50s etc) were playing Flames of War. A lot of the mature, young adults (late 20s, early 30s) were playing warmachine/hordes, and all the kiddies (with a few extremely overweight, and overhaired exceptions) were playing 40k. i'd never seen games so divided along age lines in my life. and i'm not saying this in any kind of a bad way. i loved tintin cartoons when i was a kid. downloaded them recently because of a movie, and all the charm was gone - they simply hadnt aged with me. I remember an article with the GW designers and they basically explained how they had tailored the rules (favouring rote repitition, and rote memorisation of stats) to appeal to teenagers, and they said how what appealed to older players (implementation of knowledge as opposed to memorisation of knowledge) wasnt what they wanted to put in. the style of rules was based on research into how teenagers actually thought, as opposed to how adults thought. it was quite an eye-opener, and very enlightening. i enjoy learning about game-theory and that artiicle really interested me. and thats fair enough. GW tailors their games, and it seems to be that if this is true (and i have no doubt that it is), then moving on from GW games is a natural part of the cycle for some. some people need different things as they get older. its just a shame that others add an extra dimension to it with "us" and "them", and "quitting" and "taking sides".

 Breotan wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
A quickie guys:

If you hate 8th Edition fantasy so much, then why don't you just play 7th?

Try finding a tournament that still uses 7th.

Oh, look. A strawman argument.

Please learn what strawman means before you use it in a sentence.

 kronk wrote:

Please learn what strawman means before you use it in a sentence.

"Strawman" is a pejorative used to describe anyone on the internet who disagrees with you.

Right?

 Testify wrote:

 kronk wrote:

Please learn what strawman means before you use it in a sentence.

"Strawman" is a pejorative used to describe anyone on the internet who disagrees with you.

Right?

That's... That's sarcasm, right?

 Testify wrote:

Your friend tried to field an all assault army that was also an all deep striking army. Sounds like he collected for fluff reasons since power-wise an all-khorne list sucks ass in 5th and 6th alike.

It did have a Thirster and a Grinder for popping armor and doing some heavy lifting. So yes, it was not top-competitive.

However, it could charge without taking free shots, had troops that could deal with 2+armor saves in CC, and eho did not fail charges because the first model took an overwatch bullet and increased the distance to cover.

In out meta, his army was not bad, really, as we have few WAAC types. It certainly scare the crap out of our Dark Angels Deathwing player, who may be happy that he'll never have to play against it. Even if he has one less person to play with.

But if "You picked the wrong faction, so eat crap forever. Hope you enjoy the hobby!" if the operative mindset, I guess you are right.

 Testify wrote:

 kronk wrote:

Please learn what strawman means before you use it in a sentence.

"Strawman" is a pejorative used to describe anyone on the internet who disagrees with you.

Right?

Exalted ;D

 cgage00 wrote:
But I always point out I enjoy painting and converting. Other games seem to lack the ability to freely create new models.

This is one of the main points in GW's favor. While some other companies (WGF, Defiance) are trying to make serious multi-part plastic kits, nobody is even close to GW's level in that front. When combined with the very expansive 40k background, GW really does have the most to offer when it comes to customizability.

 kronk wrote:
Please learn what strawman means before you use it in a sentence.

I tried to say that a page or so back... but I wasn't trying to be a blunt.

 Testify wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:
I am part of a club here in Brazil and have contact with another one. In both cases, 40K has ceased to be the main game in the club. People who were just getting into the game here quit over 6th edition making their armies moot before they ever got to field them.

In my case, there's still a bit of 40K going on, because 4-6 people have armies that still work. But FoW, Infinity, Warmachine and even Dropzone Commander have picked up lots of steam. Hell, we even started a Mordheim campaign so people could play games and be in the hobby without being jerked around by GW.

In the other club it has been even more pronounced. They are actually holding tournaments of the other systems, where before 40K and Fantasy were the only ones that had enough people to make organizing feasible.

You see, this kind of thing is good for the industry. Those games are good, and are worth playing. They deserve to be played. The problem is when people play one game only (say, they might only play 40k), then leave entirely, selling their stuff, and picking up one other game entirely. There's no reason to do this, and it hurts both the industry and your options in the hobby.

If those people who now play, say, Dropzone Commander, don't play 40k for a long time, that's just normal. They've got a new, shiny game to play. The itch always comes back to play an older game though - which is why you keep at least one army around from a game you 'left'. Broadening your gaming options doesn't mean entirely getting rid of a whole system, that's just moving.

This is why I also prefer to stick to one army per system. You get to play more than one game, and you'll still have regular releases for the armies you collect.

I generally agree. The difference is that most of the people who changed here didn't just see something new and shelved their 40K. They threw it away with great force.

One of my friends had gotten into the game around february this year. By June he had a very nice Khorne Daemon army with plenty of juggernauts, bloodletters, the works. Not top-competitive but enough to have fun with, and definitely much better painted than my first army.

Then 6E dropped and well, sorry, all of that sucks now. Buy FMCs or go home, pal. He tried selling his army, failed to find a buyer, nearly left the hobby and pretty much only stayed because we pitched in to get him tons of bits to join our Mordheim campaign.

Your friend tried to field an all assault army that was also an all deep striking army. Sounds like he collected for fluff reasons since power-wise an all-khorne list sucks ass in 5th and 6th alike.

If it's a balanced game then theres no reason that any army (except for something silly like all Grots) should be completely undesirable. It seems FMC are one of the strongest things now, so that's what everyone has and half of the codex is useless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elemental wrote:
When I started wargames again, I got back into 40K, and intended to get back into Fantasy at some point. The former didn't really last, and the second didn't really happen.

I think my dissatisfaction stems from a simple thing--I don't feel like GW want me to have enjoyable games, instead they want to sell me stuff above all other priorities. Yes, other companies want to sell me stuff, but with Wyrd, Privateer, etc, I get the impression that they also care about balancing the game and making it genuinely tactical. With GW, everything seems to be a gambit to get more money. Neglecting unpopular armies for multiple editions while bringing out yet another Space Marine codex. Making flying units the new hotness, so that people have to buy allies or fortifications to counter that. The cycle of various units fluctating in power based on quirks of the rules as editions change, rather than their effectiveness having anything to do with their points cost. (I remember a thread from here about someone lamenting having to convert 120 Orks to have shootas to stay useful, which seems insane). And of course, the price hikes for reasons that can include "We now use a cheaper material." and "These minis are based on movies, so the bubble won't last long.".

And so on. GW probably couldn't be more honest about how they're desperately trying to milk the fanbase for as much money as possible, everything comes second to that desire, and they don't really give a toss about how workable their games are. And I don't really want to support such a cynical attitude.

I've certainly started feeling that recently as well. Such as when the cost of plastic scenery flew up (up by as much as about 70%) the month before 6th Ed dropped and scenery became must have. It's worrying that it's actually possible to guage changes in the game direction based on the price rice data...

In saying that, I do actually quite like 6th Ed, it's been fun to play so far, and I dodged most of this round of shafting because of this forum and a huge scenery order at the end of May, and I already have a core army I can add in bits. I dread to think how much it'd sting for new players now.

My reluctance to spend with GW is now because it seems so confrontational; they are actively trying to shaft customers and I get some amusement at foiling them (though to be fair they still win because I did give them about £250 for scenery anyway, even if I saved about £100).

Gnawer wrote:
So, I've been seeing a lot of posts about people quitting 40k and getting into other games. In our area we almost completely switched to Warmachine. But I was curious to know if that's really a worldwide trend, or just an usual internet hate thing.

EDIT: The question is about your recent preferences; of course, they can change later, new events can bring you back to 40k, etc.

This has been happening for 20+ years, at least. A lot of young gamers have always "grown up" and "graduated" onto historicals, etc.

I keep seeing posts about wargaming being this black and white (GW or not) experience. Where I live, many people have begun to play other games, but all of them still maintain a 40k or Fantasy army...even if they only use it from time to time.

It amuses me that some people here have the idea that people are leaving GW in droves....I know it is not the best sample out there, but the poll for this thread is defeating that argument. 73% of the people who responded to this poll are still playing 40k/fantasy (even if just a little), of those who actually fully quit GW only 13% even still play tabletop wargames.

 Lightcavalier wrote:
I keep seeing posts about wargaming being this black and white (GW or not) experience. Where I live, many people have begun to play other games, but all of them still maintain a 40k or Fantasy army...even if they only use it from time to time.

It amuses me that some people here have the idea that people are leaving GW in droves....I know it is not the best sample out there, but the poll for this thread is defeating that argument. 73% of the people who responded to this poll are still playing 40k/fantasy (even if just a little), of those who actually fully quit GW only 13% even still play tabletop wargames.

True, but does keeping an old army in a box somewhere or playing an ultra-friendly game with their brother every year count as being an active GW player/consumer? If so, I have a couple of friends who are active despite having not rolled dice in arnger for 5+ years.

 Testify wrote:

Also bare in mind it's only the US. Australia I guess would be more tempremental owing to the instability of the currency etc, though I'm not sure why AUS is so much more expensive than the rest of the world.

From this statement and all other statements you have made in this thread. You are seriously Bat Gak Crazeeeeeeeeeeee.

Why is it that one clown can totally derail a good thread? The premise was good, there was room for all in the discussion then boom, it all turns into a pile of gak.

Please for the love of christ , the next time a neutral toned thread comes up, don't get your hackles up, put away your defender of the hobby gloves and try and have a reasonable (is this possible on dakka?) discussion.

Bullockist wrote:

 Testify wrote:

Also bare in mind it's only the US. Australia I guess would be more tempremental owing to the instability of the currency etc, though I'm not sure why AUS is so much more expensive than the rest of the world.

From this statement and all other statements you have made in this thread. You are seriously Bat Gak Crazeeeeeeeeeeee.

Why is it that one clown can totally derail a good thread? The premise was good, there was room for all in the discussion then boom, it all turns into a pile of gak.

Please for the love of christ , the next time a neutral toned thread comes up, don't get your hackles up, put away your defender of the hobby gloves and try and have a reasonable (is this possible on dakka?) discussion.

What an insightful post.

It's obvious that *not* mindlessly bashing GW, regardless of the reality of the situation, is regarded as "flaming" or "trolling" in the dakka discussions sub-forum. Honestly this place is worse than the OT.

[Edit] Nevermind

 -Loki- wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
Both new editions of GW's main games are just plain money grabs geared towards teenagers, all the tactical positioning that was part and parcel of 6th / 7th ed Fantasy is all but useless now and 6th ed 40k has adopted some of the worst rules of it. Add to that that GW herself decided to ignore 20+ years of fluff in their newer rules and Codex and it was just too much for me.

I sold 6 of my armies and just kept my initial Dark Elves and Imperial Guard that were the armies that originally brought me into miniature wargaming back in the 90's, hoping against hope that maybe GW will again someday make a rules system geared for people that like to think during a game instead of just rolling buckets of dice.

Huh, this seems like an odd claim. Positioning is much more important in 6th edition than it was in 5th edition, with position-based wound allocation and cover saves, models out of line of sight being unable to be hit, flyers being extremely constrained in movement and thus requiring careful planning as to their positioning, etc. What specifically makes you think 6th edition eliminates positioning or "dums down" the game?

Random charge range.

I still have yet to see a reasonable argument of how random charge ranges 'dumb the game down'. It's different, and people may not like it, but that's all I've heard - reasons why people don't like it. I haven't yet seen anyone explain how it dumbed the game down.

2d6 is too wild. It is also another random element, add too much of those and you will cross a luckfest line. Some randomness is necessary but there's too much in 6th, not to the point of quiting for me but close. 4+d6 or 6+d3 could be better, should be fixed though imo.

As for quiting, the most probable scenario for me is that Bombastic Matt, digging up another ancient furry cat race, squats, monkey or sth in order to make the fluff even more blatantly fantasy in space and ridiculous in a bad way, will find that old RT mutations picture and add it to codex or rulebook in some form thinking it's cool. That or something similar might do it for me and can happen as Matt seems to be on the roll lately.

Im taking a break from 6th ed. With my new job taking up nights and Saturdays, any hopes of wargaming are slim now.


I find that its easier to jump on my PC and put in a few hours of borderlands 2 or an RTS.

Depends on what you mean. I no longer purchase new things for warhammer really. Or very rarely and seldom play 40k/Warhammer. Nowadays I enjoy other games more and I prefer skirmish based games. But I still have all my old GW models and don't mind using them every now and then.

 Kingsley wrote:

Lanrak wrote:
As GW plc seem to have quit bothering delivering decent game play, in regaurds to tactical depth and game balance.

So customers who think quality rules and game play are important probably will go else where.

Hmm. I've found that 6th edition 40k is much more deep and tactically interesting than 5th edition 40k was. I suppose your mileage may vary?

I haven't found 40k a 'deep' experience for at least 14 years to be honest!

6th edition has moved around the strengths of the units a little and forced people to re-evaluate their army lists. Although the human-element (and depth if you like) of 40k has been on the 'strategic' level for years - i.e. choosing what you bring to the table when making an army list.

I'd definitely be interested in hearing what you think the improvements are though,

So, I went a bit different direction. Instead of finding new games to play; I just decided to start making my own, or just play around inthe dead Specialist Games universe. By making my own games, I can use any miniatures I want to use and dig into my existing collection.

As a result, I have pretty much left buying from GW, except for the occasionaly one-offs; for good.