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And consider that GW models typically have awful proportions (I know, heroic scale and all--it still looks stupid as hell) and are almost always stupidly overdressed.

Finally pulled the IV from my arm, and quit GW for Mantic and Dust Warfare. However, I still have my GW armies and may eventually have to pull them out again, so I took the third option of having GW as back-up material.

Kingsley pointed out a more or less reasonable example where the price increase was only about 12% over inflation over an 8 year period. Now, that may or may not have been cherry picked, but it looked like a more or less reasonable army list so I'll take it. It certainly doesn't refute that prices are going up (heck, it's still showing a price increase) but GW isn't uniformly bending us over without lube. Apparently there are still some reasonable armies out there that haven't taken a huge price increase. I was a little surprised to see that.

And, of course, there are examples of some pretty steep price hikes. Metal -> Finecast miniatures tend to be the prime examples, but fortunately in most cases you'd only need 1 or 2 for an army. Obliterators are my favorite example of a terribly overpriced miniature (Heck, I thought they were crappy sculpts and overpriced at $10, and they're $18 now.)

So, some price increases are fairly reasonable, some are excessive, and some armies are hit worse than others. I suppose we can shut down the internet now?

 Lansirill wrote:
Kingsley pointed out a more or less reasonable example where the price increase was only about 12% over inflation over an 8 year period. Now, that may or may not have been cherry picked, but it looked like a more or less reasonable army list so I'll take it. It certainly doesn't refute that prices are going up (heck, it's still showing a price increase) but GW isn't uniformly bending us over without lube. Apparently there are still some reasonable armies out there that haven't taken a huge price increase. I was a little surprised to see that.

Keep in mind also that if you include price savings via starter set models, there was a net price decrease for that army, even before adjusting for inflation.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Therefore on average, prices are actually going down.

You must exist in some wired bizarro world where GW prices go down every June, yet your Internet connection somehow gets through to our reality.

Way to take words out of context.

 Testify wrote:
Not that non-GW models can be used as a cheaper alternative but it's rare that they're genuinely as good as GW models.

This is laughable, especially given its so utterly subjective. "Genuinely as good"? What does that even mean???

First off, space marines have had it comparatively easy; an IG player would be much worse off, for example. I do believe UK/EU pricing has shot up faster in many cases than US prices but I might be mistaken there (and slight VAT increases do play into that as well I suppose). The point about the guard army stands though; those have shot up in price a lot faster than marine armies (and since it was an expensive army to start to begin with I wouldn't even want to think about it anymore, now).

What context Testify? You said that the prices were "on average" going down. That's just ludicrous. What context could possibly make that true?

"Subjective opinions are "laughable"?"

Not what I said (and you damn well know it). I said your insitance that GW's models were 'genuinley better' than everything else at there is laughable.

One question to ask though, randomly, are you Scottish by any chance?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What context could possibly make that true?

How about the line "If we're picking random products then I could cite Flamers of Tzeentch and claim that on average prices are going down".

Bolded the part you clipped out for your little straw man.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Not what I said (and you damn well know it). I said your insitance that GW's models were 'genuinley better' than everything else at there is laughable.

So you're saying that my own subjective opinion is irrelevant?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

One question to ask though, randomly, are you Scottish by any chance?

No.

Now stop following me from thread to thread and insulting me.

 kronk wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

Well, that's something that is entirely down to your own opinion. Personally I think those look better than the GW Cadians. I also think the Mantic Corporation minis look better and are also significantly cheaper.

I know we're going off on a tangent here, but this is a good point. Not everyone has the same preferences when it comes to models. I prefer the Cadians and DKoK to the other alternatives listed here. If I were to add IG allies, it would ONLY be Cadians or DKoK (Forge World), as I dislike the Mantic Corporation and the War Games Factory sci-fi minis and outright HATE the Games Workshop Catachans. However, I do like a number of the Pig Irons heads and add-ons. Again, to each their own.

That being said, only a snobbish person would laugh at someone that chose a different look (Wargames Factory or Pig Iron) over, say GW Cadians.

I actually prefer the Forge World DKoK models myself, but cannot in nearly any lifetime fathom paying for the army that I currently have, in FW terms. I mean, 3x command squads, 12x squads, 3x Commissars, and another 12-15 heavy weapon squads... that adds up VERY quickly.... And the last time I played my guard army, my opponent wasn't laughing at the "terrible" sculpt of my Wargames Factory minis, he was pulling his jaw off the floor when he saw how many vehicles were on the table (I hadn't started to place infantry yet, and yes, he saw my list prior to us setting up, so it shoulda been no surprise to him)

I completely understand that the WGF minis arent the greatest sculpts in the world, but they do the job that I need them to, there's no question on equipment, and they look good enough that no one has ever complained about me not using GW stuff. It's just that for me, even at the prices I paid for the actual GW product, I could not fathom paying as much for the infantry as I would have, had I bought actual GW product, even at discount.

 Bolognesus wrote:
First off, space marines have had it comparatively easy; an IG player would be much worse off, for example. I do believe UK/EU pricing has shot up faster in many cases than US prices but I might be mistaken there (and slight VAT increases do play into that as well I suppose). The point about the guard army stands though; those have shot up in price a lot faster than marine armies (and since it was an expensive army to start to begin with I wouldn't even want to think about it anymore, now).

Imperial Guard have definitely gone up in price a lot. Sisters have become more or less impossible to field thanks to being removed from stores and losing boxed sets. However, other armies have not seen these sorts of price increases and several units have in fact become less expensive. While browsing the archive of GW's 2004 webstore, I was really surprised by how expensive many things were relative to today's prices. In particular, Dark Eldar, Necrons, and Grey Knights seem to have benefited hugely from their recent revamps, getting models that are both better and often less pricey.

Anything that goes from metal to plastic usually benefits, with rare exception (Marine Dread has been pretty much same price forever, Terminators have always been pricey). But there are some sculpts that went up and up and up every year without change, and then jumped alarmingly when they went FineCost - Eldrad and the Avatar are the two best examples here.

Plus one only needs to look at the blatant price gouging with the Hobbit stuff to see where 40K and Fantasy are headed (AUD$90 terrain boxes, etc.). I'm hope I'm wrong, and it's just GW squeezing the Hobbit bubble for as much as they can before it bursts, but all other price rises in one area have always filtered down to the other products, so I see no reason why this one won't.

@ Kingsley Where are you getting your data from as far as your pricing is concerned?

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
@ Kingsley Where are you getting your data from as far as your pricing is concerned?

This archive of GW's webstore circa August 2004.

H.B.M.C wrote:Plus one only needs to look at the blatant price gouging with the Hobbit stuff to see where 40K and Fantasy are headed (AUD$90 terrain boxes, etc.). I'm hope I'm wrong, and it's just GW squeezing the Hobbit bubble for as much as they can before it bursts, but all other price rises in one area have always filtered down to the other products, so I see no reason why this one won't.

Is this another Australia thing? The Hobbit prices seem pretty much in line with 40k or Fantasy to me, aside from the weirdly expensive "Goblin Town" terrain set.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
@ Kingsley Where are you getting your data from as far as your pricing is concerned?

This archive of GW's webstore circa August 2004.

Using that site and the current US one I've compared the prices.
You said the older armies going to plastic become cheaper, well I got a 1k necron list out of the 40k lists forum and priced it. The list was:

Destroyer Lord
5 Triarch Praetorians
10 Warriors
10 Warriors
3 (the list said 4 but they are sold in boxes of 3 so I changed it) Wraiths

As of 2004 that's $180 (us). 2 boxes of warriors at $30 each, 3 wraiths at $15 each, a destroyer lord at $25 and since Praetorians didn't exist I called it 5 metal immortal blisters at $10 each.
As of 2012 that's $184 (us). 2 boxes of warriors at $36.25 each, a box of 3 wraiths at $47, a destroyer lord is now an upgrade kit at $11.50 on top of a destroyer at $20 and then 5 praetorians for $33.

That is still an increase of $4.. which is nothing at all really but that's an example that is in favour of the metal to plastic conversion.

Imperial guard on the other hand.. Again grabbing a list from the lists forum:

Primas Psyker
Psyker Battle Squad X10 (sold in 3s so we'll buy 12 and use one as primas in both lists)
Marbo (doesn't seem to exist on either page so I am using Yarrick as a stand in)
PCS w/ Lascannon
Infantry Squad W/ Lascannon
Infantry Squad W/ Lascannon
PCS w/ Lascannon
Infantry Squad W/ Lascannon
Infantry Squad W/ Lascannon (that's a total of 40 guardsmen, 2 command squads and 6 heavy weapons)
Leman Russ
Leman Russ

As of 2004 that's $338 (us).
As of 2012 that's $423.25 (us).

It could be argued armies that were mostly metal have stayed about the same thanks to recent plastic releases but a lot of other armies have shot up, so the 'average' has only gone up.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
@ Kingsley Where are you getting your data from as far as your pricing is concerned?

This archive of GW's webstore circa August 2004.

H.B.M.C wrote:Plus one only needs to look at the blatant price gouging with the Hobbit stuff to see where 40K and Fantasy are headed (AUD$90 terrain boxes, etc.). I'm hope I'm wrong, and it's just GW squeezing the Hobbit bubble for as much as they can before it bursts, but all other price rises in one area have always filtered down to the other products, so I see no reason why this one won't.

Is this another Australia thing? The Hobbit prices seem pretty much in line with 40k or Fantasy to me, aside from the weirdly expensive "Goblin Town" terrain set.

Now that is rather interesting. Thank you for the Info. I will compare this to the GW trade price changes for 2011.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Using that site and the current US one I've compared the prices.
You said the older armies going to plastic become cheaper, well I got a 1k necron list out of the 40k lists forum and priced it. The list was:

Destroyer Lord
5 Triarch Praetorians
10 Warriors
10 Warriors
3 (the list said 4 but they are sold in boxes of 3 so I changed it) Wraiths

As of 2004 that's $180 (us). 2 boxes of warriors at $30 each, 3 wraiths at $15 each, a destroyer lord at $25 and since Praetorians didn't exist I called it 5 metal immortal blisters at $10 each.
As of 2012 that's $184 (us). 2 boxes of warriors at $36.25 each, a box of 3 wraiths at $47, a destroyer lord is now an upgrade kit at $11.50 on top of a destroyer at $20 and then 5 praetorians for $33.

That is still an increase of $4.. which is nothing at all really but that's an example that is in favour of the metal to plastic conversion.

Yep. Keep in mind also that inflation means that something that costs $180.00 in 2004 is equivalent to something that costs $220.42 in 2012. So with inflation taken into account, the Necron army actually became less expensive.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Imperial guard on the other hand.. Again grabbing a list from the lists forum:

Primas Psyker
Psyker Battle Squad X10 (sold in 3s so we'll by 12 and use one as primas in both lists)
Marbo (doesn't seem to exist on either page so I am using Yarrick as a stand in)
PCS w/ Lascannon
Infantry Squad W/ Lascannon
Infantry Squad W/ Lascannon
PCS w/ Lascannon
Infantry Squad W/ Lascannon
Infantry Squad W/ Lascannon (that's a total of 40 guardsmen, 2 command squads and 6 heavy weapons)
Leman Russ
Leman Russ

As of 2004 that's $338 (us).
As of 2012 that's $423.25 (us).

It could be argued armies that were mostly metal have stayed about the same thanks to recent plastic releases but a lot of other armies have shot up, so the 'average' has only gone up.

Imperial Guard have been hit hard, but with inflation taken into account $338.00 in 2004 dollars is equivalent to $413.90 in 2012 dollars. So even the Imperial Guard army, who has definitely seen major price increases, ultimately went up by only like ten bucks beyond inflation.

Did you remember to take into account that 40 Guardsmen in 2004 were in 1 box of 20 models for $30 compared to 1 box of 10 for $29?

Also keep in mind that games have increased in size quite a bit since 2004. You need quite a bit more to play at a decent point level today than you did in 2004.

 Fafnir wrote:
Also keep in mind that games have increased in size quite a bit since 2004. You need quite a bit more to play at a decent point level today than you did in 2004.

This is another thing to consider. Grab a 4th edition Guard codex and bash out the points for those two armies. What is 1000pts now might have been closer to 1500pts in 4th edition.

Fafnir wrote:Also keep in mind that games have increased in size quite a bit since 2004. You need quite a bit more to play at a decent point level today than you did in 2004.

That's because your meta changed. Don't use that to justify bashing GW's price increases.

jonolikespie wrote:
As of 2004 that's $338 (us).
As of 2012 that's $423.25 (us).

that amounts to...4% per annum!



Love to see how the GW ragers will respond to this.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Loki- wrote:

This is another thing to consider. Grab a 4th edition Guard codex and bash out the points for those two armies. What is 1000pts now might have been closer to 1500pts in 4th edition.

It'd help if your argument was anything other than "GW are trying to shaft their players", and simply grab everything and everything you can to prove it.

 Testify wrote:
It'd help if your argument was anything other than "GW are trying to shaft their players", and simply grab everything and everything you can to prove it.

My argument is always for GW. However, I'm not blind that their prices have increased as well as the amount of models needed to play at the same points value increasing every edition. Me having a valid criticism doesn't make me anti GW.

That fact that this has now become GW supporters attacking GW supporters means it's time for my to back out, because it's actually hit white knight levels.

 Testify wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Also keep in mind that games have increased in size quite a bit since 2004. You need quite a bit more to play at a decent point level today than you did in 2004.

That's because your meta changed. Don't use that to justify bashing GW's price increases.

If chaos marines in the 6th codex are 12 points so people suddenly start spamming them that is not 'my' meta changing, that is THE meta changing and it is GW changing it.

Warhammer 8th ed is another example there, units of 40 are suddenly the average.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I just don't particularly regard point deflation as a deliberate attempt to sell models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Testify wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Also keep in mind that games have increased in size quite a bit since 2004. You need quite a bit more to play at a decent point level today than you did in 2004.

That's because your meta changed. Don't use that to justify bashing GW's price increases.

If chaos marines in the 6th codex are 12 points so people suddenly start spamming them that is not 'my' meta changing, that is THE meta changing and it is GW changing it.

So you admit the price increases are reasonable? I'm glad we're agreed.

What else could it possibly be? By GWs own admission they are a model selling company, not a rules company, so what else can it be when the rules suddenly make it so people need to buy more models to play at the same points level?

So you admit the price increases are reasonable? I'm glad we're agreed.

I... what?


(god the editing system gets annoying)

 jonolikespie wrote:
What else could it possibly be? By GWs own admission they are a model selling company, not a rules company, so what else can it be when the rules suddenly make it so people need to buy more models to play at the same points level?

Given that the points value of games is up to the players, I'm not convinced of this. People buy what they can afford, they don't take out second mortages to get from 1800 points to 2000 points.

 jonolikespie wrote:

I... what?


(god the editing system gets annoying)

From what we've seen anyway. I can't be arsed setting up a US proxy but if an american user could make some comparisons with ye olde prices listed on the url above, with current prices, we could build up a widespread picture of price increases over an 8 year period.

Also bare in mind it's only the US. Australia I guess would be more tempremental owing to the instability of the currency etc, though I'm not sure why AUS is so much more expensive than the rest of the world.

Is quiting a trend? Hell no, interest in 40k has been on a decline since 3rd, GWs only making profits now because they are cutting waste like no tomorrow. Ive watched the number of stores that carried warhammer get cut in half, Ive seen the number of GWs go from 8 down to 3 (soon to be 2) Out of the 27 people that used to go to the FLGS back in 3rd, there is 3 of us now. I remember 140 people showing up for grand tournaments, and over 1000 on the hall of heroes circuit.

I carried on with the hobby and started working for the company, after you see numerous people get screwed over by upper management for the stupidest reasons it starts to become very apparent what kind of company GW is. After the fall of the Canadian HQ and the rise of the one man stores GWs continued stance with its employees has gotten worse. Ive never been more disgusted as a customer as I have been recently when I go to a store.

Ive said it once and I'll say it again, for some reason GW is at war with its own customers and doesnt seem to understand that they need to really do something about them looking like an evil empire. Ive seen the results of a store ran by a zealot and a store ran by someone who treated it like a fun easy going job, it doesnt take a genious to figure out which one made more money.

Truly in the end only trend Ive seen is the growing number of people that take it lying down and continue to support and justify atrocious behaviour as if it should be expected.

 Ravenous D wrote:

I carried on with the hobby and started working for the company, after you see numerous people get screwed over by upper management for the stupidest reasons it starts to become very apparent what kind of company GW is. After the fall of the Canadian HQ and the rise of the one man stores GWs continued stance with its employees has gotten worse. Ive never been more disgusted as a customer as I have been recently when I go to a store.

Oooh, what sort of reasons?

Point form!
-Like hiring a guy for 3 weeks then closing the store you put him in without telling him then telling him he has to do a 6 hour round trip a day to keep his job

-Have one of the most loyal and hard working employees open a new store and break all sales records for a new store ever on the planet, then told they dont need him.

-Having the head north american trainer give fantastic advice like "kick out all your regulars and start a new customer base" in a low foot traffic area only to have the same person written up for not doing enough demos.

-Harassing managers that have improved the growth of a store by 14% in 4 months to the point where he told the guy to F himself.

-I could write a book on Ash Barker, guy nearly fired me for saying I saw cool stuff on warseer, I was told "the internet lies and all the pictures are there are fake"

and it continues, the worst part is the guys that act like zealous sales bots dont realize there is no "up" in the company, they are disposable in the extreme and dont make enough to warrent the behaviour and policies they enforce.

 jonolikespie wrote:

So you admit the price increases are reasonable? I'm glad we're agreed.

I... what?

He doesn't really get how arguments work. Most White Knights are like that. Best to leave him be and leave the thread like I have (did!).

 Ravenous D wrote:
Point form!
-Like hiring a guy for 3 weeks then closing the store you put him in without telling him then telling him he has to do a 6 hour round trip a day to keep his job

-Have one of the most loyal and hard working employees open a new store and break all sales records for a new store ever on the planet, then told they dont need him.

-Having the head north american trainer give fantastic advice like "kick out all your regulars and start a new customer base" in a low foot traffic area only to have the same person written up for not doing enough demos.

-Harassing managers that have improved the growth of a store by 14% in 4 months to the point where he told the guy to F himself.

-I could write a book on Ash Barker, guy nearly fired me for saying I saw cool stuff on warseer, I was told "the internet lies and all the pictures are there are fake"

and it continues, the worst part is the guys that act like zealous sales bots dont realize there is no "up" in the company, they are disposable in the extreme and dont make enough to warrent the behaviour and policies they enforce.

..
....


Oh god that's funny, I bet they wonder why sale are going down too.