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 -Loki- wrote:

 Byte wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Byte wrote:
Mid 90's friends, stay focused. This is the core of my point. I not knocking the new hot systems that are the new shiny object. My issue, I've been through many shiny object game systems. GW is still going strong and producing new rules and minis which is rare in my personal experience of nearly 20 years of table top.

It's not 1995 anymore. Stop expecting it to be.

Wow. Really? Condescending approach. Classy.

No more than telling people to stay focused.

But that's my point. In 1995, GW was the only game that had staying power, because other companies didn't know how to approach the industry. It's now 2012, and there have been other games around for over 5 years now, which are not only growing, but encroaching into areas GW used to reign king (in particular, as much as I dislike their sculpts, Mantic and mass plastic production). GW is banking on these companies, like in 1995, to die out because their brand name will outlast them. They're expecting them to make the same mistakes companies of that era made that let GW remain king of the hill.

They're not going to. Mostly because of the internet. They know what people want, they have the information at hand on how to proceed further in the industry. The biggest competitior is, instead of embracing this era, sticking its fingers in its ears and hoping it goes away, while trying to force gamers back into how it was done 15 years ago.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a GW detractor. I'm still solidly a fan of their games, most of the wargaming product I buy is from GW, and rather insanely, a lot of it at GW Australia retail prices. However, I'm not blind to the rest of the industry, and I wish for their sake, GW wasn't either. Because I want them to stick around, because regardless of the flaws in their rulesets or the prices of their models, I love their games and want them to keep making them, because I want to keep being able to play them. They just need to start acknowledging the rest of the industry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kingsley wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
No games from that period are really around - that's not my point. Newer games have stuck around longer than games of that period did, even games of early 2000's. They have also, unlike most games of those periods, grown a lot more in the time they've been around. Unless something drastically bad happens financially to Corvus Belli, Privateer Press, Mantic, Wyrd, etc, those games will not be going anywhere. They're very well established now, the companies are profitable, and they're growing quickly.

The idea of going by past trends in the industry is the same mistake GW is banking on. It's not 1995 anymore. Stop expecting it to be.

I think you're overstating the case a little. Malifaux, Infinity, and Warmahordes are all serious games, but let's not kid ourselves-- despite the recent Fantasy downturn, GW is still the main driver of miniatures gaming with 40k, and has also acquired the potentially valuable Hobbit license. Further, many other companies rely on GW to introduce people to the hobby, as none of them have even close to GW's level of outreach. Mantic would outright go out of business if not for GW-- their games more or less exist as a marketing tool to hide their models' GW knockoff status.

I never said they did. It's obvious that none of them are as big as GW. IIRC, one of the designers for Privateer Press made a comment that every company in the industry wishes it has the customer base of GW.

That customer base is due mostly to age and better decisions in the past, however. They've gradually built up a huge following. While they've always been expensive, they've never been as badly priced as they are right now. They never had such a lack of hobby support as they do right now. While their customer base is still the biggest, they are making a lot of bad business decisions, while their competitors are making a lot of good business decisions.

Rather than try to explain to you that I've played four editions of 40k and have not been in a time capsule since 1995 and that I was talking/referring to the entire period in between, I'll just introduce you to my ignore list. Don't bother to reply.

I'll do likewise

 Byte wrote:

Rather than try to explain to you that I've played four editions of 40k and have not been in a time capsule since 1995 and that I was talking/referring to the entire period in between, I'll just introduce you to my ignore list. Don't bother to reply.

So Loki makes an entirely solid point, and your choice is to set him to ignore?

He wasn't even disagreeing with you outright. Honestly, you're just looking to be offended, judging by what is offending you.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Byte wrote:

Rather than try to explain to you that I've played four editions of 40k and have not been in a time capsule since 1995 and that I was talking/referring to the entire period in between, I'll just introduce you to my ignore list. Don't bother to reply.

So Loki makes an entirely solid point, and your choice is to set him to ignore?

He wasn't even disagreeing with you outright. Honestly, you're just looking to be offended, judging by what is offending you.

This. Loki brings up valid points. By ignoring them instead of re-butting, you immediately surrender to his points and consider them valid...and rightfully so.

Topic: I quit WHFB due to 8th being a horrendous piece of trash but stll rock my Necrons since 3rd.

While they've always been expensive, they've never been as badly priced as they are right now.

Not sure how this is the case-- many items have gone down in price recently!

They never had such a lack of hobby support as they do right now.

In what respect?

While their customer base is still the biggest, they are making a lot of bad business decisions, while their competitors are making a lot of good business decisions.

I'm not seeing it. Mantic is releasing more knockoffs, Corvus Belli is doing their thing, and many people seem to have think Privateer has made a major blunder with Colossals. Meanwhile 40k seems to be moving from strength to strength with 6th edition and the excellent Dark Vengeance set, and GW is currently releasing the Hobbit. If that goes well, there may be another GW boom, as there was in 2001-2004...

Not sure how this is the case-- many items have gone down in price recently!

Uhm? We just had a prince increase of about 5-10% on everything e.g. Necron Warriors going from 26 -> 30€, AB 26€ -> 29€ and let's not start about the Stormraven or the monolith...and don't even get me started on those TWENTY EUROS character models. I mean...wow!

In what respect?

WD offers little to no hobby articles any more, stores remove gaming tables and replace them with demo tables, lots of tournament support is pulled off.

I'm not seeing it. Mantic is releasing more knockoffs, Corvus Belli is doing their thing, and many people seem to have think Privateer has made a major blunder with Colossals. Meanwhile 40k seems to be moving from strength to strength with 6th edition and the excellent Dark Vengeance set, and GW is currently releasing the Hobbit. If that goes well, there may be another GW boom, as there was in 2001-2004...

WHFB (rightfully) took a hard hit sales-wise and became rather unpopular in a lot of areas, The Hobbit comes at a downright outrageous price tag and will hardly sell well and with the 6th now having started a few months ago, 40k will not see a huge rise in 2013 either but rather stay solid at the top. GW keeps their effective monopoly, but a boom is completely unrealistic as far as I can tell based on the facts lying before me. Add in lower sales.

I have other hobbies/interests and if my current interest in 40k would wane then again they would go in the closet to await the next revival.

You don't 'quit' a hobby like it was a football team. I can't pick any of the options in the poll because they are quite biased.

How about a straight 'No' option?

 Sigvatr wrote:

Not sure how this is the case-- many items have gone down in price recently!

Uhm? We just had a prince increase of about 5-10% on everything e.g. Necron Warriors going from 26 -> 30€, AB 26€ -> 29€ and let's not start about the Stormraven or the monolith...and don't even get me started on those TWENTY EUROS character models. I mean...wow!

Sure, some prices recently went up, but look at the big picture:

Space Marine Command Squad in Aug. 2004: 45.00 USD, not customizable
Space Marine Command Squad in Dec. 2012: 35.00 USD, extremely customizable, better sculpts overall, many more bitz included

Grey Knight Terminators in Aug. 2004: 55.00 USD, not customizable
Grey Knight Terminators in Dec. 2012: 50.00 USD, extremely customizable, many more bitz included

Dark Eldar Wyches in Aug. 2004: 30.00 USD for five, not customizable
Dark Eldar Wyches in Dec. 2012: 29.00 USD for ten, extremely customizable, insanely better sculpts, many more bitz included

5 Necron Immortals in Aug. 2004: 50.00 USD, not customizable
5 Necron Immortals in Dec: 2012: 33.00 USD, customizable, many more bitz included

GW price increases do exist and people do get mad, but they aren't raising costs unduly and in many cases you are getting more bang for your buck as GW takes old and expensive metal kits and moves them to cheaper and better multi-part plastics.

GW keeps their effective monopoly, but a boom is completely unrealistic as far as I can tell based on the facts lying before me. Add in lower sales.

Were you around in 2001-2004? I was. The Lord of the Rings boom was *huge*. If the Hobbit is even half as successful GW will be sitting pretty-- until, of course, the movies are no longer in theaters and people stop caring.

Those aren't price changes. They're different kits entirely. You want to look at their price increases, then all you simply need to do is compare a box'o'Catachans when it was first released to a box'O'Catachans now.

"...but they aren't raising costs unduly..."

It used to cost AUD$50 to buy 20 Cadians. Now it costs AUD$96. That's a 92% increase in cost.
Most of the LOTR plastics went from 20 model boxes to 10 model boxes. They did not go down 50% in price.

Stop deluding yourself.

 Kingsley wrote:

While they've always been expensive, they've never been as badly priced as they are right now.

Not sure how this is the case-- many items have gone down in price recently!

If you hang around here April-May time each year, you'll see the perennial threads regarding the price increases (brief summary of the 100 or so pages of threads: "Oh no they haven't" then "Oh yes they did!" - insert your own image of Panto characters there )

Can't think of any items that have gone down in price at all?

They never had such a lack of hobby support as they do right now.

In what respect?

He could have meant:
- lack of official tournaments, or tournaments with official support.
- shutting out of other events run by non-GW groups that used to run at WHW (Tempus Fugitives etc.)
- The GW stores ceasing to function as a meeting/playing place with a reduction in playing tables, less staff/opening hours so less time to use a GW store (perhaps those guys were dwindling in number, but there were still some who only had the option of playing in a GW store, at least in the UK)
- More abstractly, WD no longer running any kind of hobby-related articles. Painting/terrain building seemingly pushed to one side.
- Also, the company becoming a '2 headed beast', focusing only on WFB/40k and LoTR. Contrast with a decade ago where the 'Games' bit in the title was much more appropriate in terms of the sheer number of wargaming systems the company produced, which were all supported heartily.

While their customer base is still the biggest, they are making a lot of bad business decisions, while their competitors are making a lot of good business decisions.

I'm not seeing it. Mantic is releasing more knockoffs, Corvus Belli is doing their thing, and many people seem to have think Privateer has made a major blunder with Colossals. Meanwhile 40k seems to be moving from strength to strength with 6th edition and the excellent Dark Vengeance set, and GW is currently releasing the Hobbit. If that goes well, there may be another GW boom, as there was in 2001-2004...

OK, several points here. Firstly, regarding Mantic had this post been made 2-3 years ago I would have probably agreed with you (arguments over whether there was a hole in the market for 'cheap fantasy' aside), but releases over the past 12 months have made a big difference to a lot of people's opinions. Take a look at the Dreadball/Kings of War threads in the news sections, Mantic have got some really talented sculptors on board (some of them ex-Rackham guys) and are really starting to construct an aesthetic style of their own. The gap in quality has come down to the point where it has now become one of preference over aesthetic style, and the big difference in price is always going to have an influence on that also.

I agree that Dark Vengeance is a nice set, and some of the models are nice, but I wouldn't say 'strength to strength' - really all they are doing is pushing the same old, tired course that they have been doing for the last decade or so. There is nothing really new, nothing game changing or to try and push the industry forward in anyway at all in terms of rules design. I realise it is a personal thing (and because I'm a long term nerd), but I must have dismounted at least 20,000 marines out of a rhino over the years, and I wish they would try and do things to shake up the rules - make something fresh and exciting, rather than just reversing previous rules changes for the next generation of new gamers. And regarding those new gamers I think they too could benefit from a shake-up - games design is not some kind of already discovered science that reached its zenith with 3rd edition, or had its 'end of history' if you will. Its developed like anything else, and GW's refusal to evolve their games beyond shuffling around in circles has meant their core games are starting to look decidedly creaky compared to some of the new stuff on the market.

Also, I thought much of the new Chaos range was pretty crappy to be honest (I refuse to believe the Helldrake was made by Jes Goodwin! - even the greats, those that haven't moved on, are obviously being shackled) - you brought up Corvus Belli, I hate to say it but most of that new range of beasts/monsters and the like looks like something made by Tonka Toys by comparison to what the Spanish company has been designing over the past year or two.

And no doubt the Hobbit will be a success, but nothing like the one that LoTR was for the company.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Those aren't price changes. They're different kits entirely. You want to look at their price increases, then all you simply need to do is compare a box'o'Catachans when it was first released to a box'O'Catachans now.

"...but they aren't raising costs unduly..."

It used to cost AUD$50 to buy 20 Cadians. Now it costs AUD$96. That's a 92% increase in cost.
Most of the LOTR plastics went from 20 model boxes to 10 model boxes. They did not go down 50% in price.

Stop deluding yourself.

Good point.

Furthermore, now keep in mind that point costs change as well. Immortals are now 9 (iirc) points cheaper and thus you have to buy more of them.

With all due respect, but saying that GW does not raise costs unduly is ridiculous to me given the price hikes we have seen in the recent past. Regarding the metal change, just have a look at all the "finecast" miniatures. Former metal miniatures that are now even more expensive. Necron FO want to have a word with you.

I can see that you're very enthusiastic about GW and do not want to talk you down, it's just that reality mostly differs from your personal perception. Ask all the LOTR guys who had their box contents halved what they think about GW's prices

 Pacific wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

While they've always been expensive, they've never been as badly priced as they are right now.

Not sure how this is the case-- many items have gone down in price recently!

If you hang around here April-May time each year, you'll see the perennial threads regarding the price increases (brief summary of the 100 or so pages of threads: "Oh no they haven't" then "Oh yes they did!" - insert your own image of Panto characters there )

Can't think of any items that have gone down in price at all?

The ones he listed are price reductions. However, as HBMC rightfully pointed out, they're entirely new kits. Some kits have, also as HBMC pointed out, not only increased in price, but halved in contents, like Tyranid Gaunts, Imperial Guard Cadians and Catachan, and basically the whole range of LotR plastic troop boxes.

 Pacific wrote:

They never had such a lack of hobby support as they do right now.

In what respect?

He could have meant:
- lack of official tournaments, or tournaments with official support.
- shutting out of other events run by non-GW groups that used to run at WHW (Tempus Fugitives etc.)
- The GW stores ceasing to function as a meeting/playing place with a reduction in playing tables, less staff/opening hours so less time to use a GW store (perhaps those guys were dwindling in number, but there were still some who only had the option of playing in a GW store, at least in the UK)
- More abstractly, WD no longer running any kind of hobby-related articles. Painting/terrain building seemingly pushed to one side.
- Also, the company becoming a '2 headed beast', focusing only on WFB/40k and LoTR. Contrast with a decade ago where the 'Games' bit in the title was much more appropriate in terms of the sheer number of wargaming systems the company produced, which were all supported heartily.

Precisely. In the past, they embraced larger tournaments (though I do agree their rulesets aren't made for them, people DO want them). They've been reducing tournament prize support at FLGS's. Their stores are ALL turning into closets simply for selling stuff and introductory games. They no longer encourage DIY projects like making your own terrain - unless, of course, it involves kitbashing their expensive kits. Their painting tutorials have turned into showing a few stage by stage shots and a few colour swatches, and 'learn the rest yourself'. Shutting out specialist games - a dumb move as they were often gateway games into their main games. Their continual attitude of no companies existing outside of themselves.

While they claim to encourage people into the hobby with their casual rules, they also don't encrouage the hobby at all after people buy into their games. This is a stark contrast to even about 5 years ago. Their competitors, however, are capitalising on this. Look at Avatars of War and Mantic - both make competing products, but they're also partnered with Avatars of War units and characters available in bundle deals directly from Mantic.

 Pacific wrote:

While their customer base is still the biggest, they are making a lot of bad business decisions, while their competitors are making a lot of good business decisions.

I'm not seeing it. Mantic is releasing more knockoffs, Corvus Belli is doing their thing, and many people seem to have think Privateer has made a major blunder with Colossals. Meanwhile 40k seems to be moving from strength to strength with 6th edition and the excellent Dark Vengeance set, and GW is currently releasing the Hobbit. If that goes well, there may be another GW boom, as there was in 2001-2004...

OK, several points here. Firstly, regarding Mantic had this post been made 2-3 years ago I would have probably agreed with you (arguments over whether there was a hole in the market for 'cheap fantasy' aside), but releases over the past 12 months have made a big difference to a lot of people's opinions. Take a look at the Dreadball/Kings of War threads in the news sections, Mantic have got some really talented sculptors on board (some of them ex-Rackham guys) and are really starting to construct an aesthetic style of their own. The gap in quality has come down to the point where it has now become one of preference over aesthetic style, and the big difference in price is always going to have an influence on that also.

I agree that Dark Vengeance is a nice set, and some of the models are nice, but I wouldn't say 'strength to strength' - really all they are doing is pushing the same old, tired course that they have been doing for the last decade or so. There is nothing really new, nothing game changing or to try and push the industry forward in anyway at all in terms of rules design. I realise it is a personal thing (and because I'm a long term nerd), but I must have dismounted at least 20,000 marines out of a rhino over the years, and I wish they would try and do things to shake up the rules - make something fresh and exciting, rather than just reversing previous rules changes for the next generation of new gamers. And regarding those new gamers I think they too could benefit from a shake-up - games design is not some kind of already discovered science that reached its zenith with 3rd edition, or had its 'end of history' if you will. Its developed like anything else, and GW's refusal to evolve their games beyond shuffling around in circles has meant their core games are starting to look decidedly creaky compared to some of the new stuff on the market.

Also, I thought much of the new Chaos range was pretty crappy to be honest (I refuse to believe the Helldrake was made by Jes Goodwin! - even the greats, those that haven't moved on, are obviously being shackled) - you brought up Corvus Belli, I hate to say it but most of that new range of beasts/monsters and the like looks like something made by Tonka Toys by comparison to what the Spanish company has been designing over the past year or two.

And no doubt the Hobbit will be a success, but nothing like the one that LoTR was for the company.

Yeah, that's about what I was going to say as well.

Also, to repeat, I'm not a GW detractor. I'm a huge supporter. I just hope that GW starts making better business decisions again, because I want to keep buying their lovely, if overpriced, kits and playing their fun, if flawed, games.

I still have my skaven, SMs and IG but i rarely play them anymore. lugging them down to my club is just to much like hardwork when my Warmachines fits into 2 small containers and can snuggle down in my bag along with my magic, yugioh, dice, books, etc. That and the fact i can nolonger afford the BRB for 40K. I mean compare its price of around £60-£70 to the warmachine army book that is similar in size and contains many of the basic units for each faction at only £25-£30 depending on wether or not you want it in softback or hardback.

I still have my GW gear and will continue to play but i find warmahordes more fun currently as you can do lots of cool stuff(such as dropping a heavy Warjack on your opponents caster ) and you can have lots of different terrain types(where as with GW youve got to allow room for ranks of infantry to march across) such as rocky coastal areas with narrow rock bridges and the like.

Also try building any of the hoard armys(Skaven, IG,....) at the current prices-£20 for 20 clanrats

I don't plan on quitting 40K, why would I when I love the models and the game?

I appreciate some people have a limitied gaming budget but I don't understand the THIS vs THAT attitude lots of gamers seem to have, especially 40K vs Warmachine.

40K is not my only gaming interest. I play Star Wars Minis, Heroclix, RPGs and Board Games.

 master of ordinance wrote:


Also try building any of the hoard armys(Skaven, IG,....) at the current prices-£20 for 20 clanrats

When I made my "parking lot" guard army, i bought nearly all of my infantry from Wargames Factory. Using their "sci fi greatcoat infantry" I was able to create a 2k point 'death korp' army. The infantry models for the whole army, (3 platoons of 4 squads with command squads and various hwt scattered in there) cost less than 3 of my leman russ tanks.


Dont get me wrong, i still have all of my armies. Some are more built than others. Maybe if costs for things like rule books come down to a more reasonable level, like the cost of WM/H books, I may "rejoin" playing 40k. Until then, i am enjoying the heck out of hell dorado, malifaux and WM

 master of ordinance wrote:
I still have my skaven, SMs and IG but i rarely play them anymore. lugging them down to my club is just to much like hardwork when my Warmachines fits into 2 small containers and can snuggle down in my bag along with my magic, yugioh, dice, books, etc. That and the fact i can nolonger afford the BRB for 40K. I mean compare its price of around £60-£70 to the warmachine army book that is similar in size and contains many of the basic units for each faction at only £25-£30 depending on wether or not you want it in softback or hardback.

MY Infinity army fits in a lunchbox with a lot of room to spare, and is also the reason I prefer to go play it at the FLGS over W40K.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:


Also try building any of the hoard armys(Skaven, IG,....) at the current prices-£20 for 20 clanrats

When I made my "parking lot" guard army, i bought nearly all of my infantry from Wargames Factory. Using their "sci fi greatcoat infantry" I was able to create a 2k point 'death korp' army. The infantry models for the whole army, (3 platoons of 4 squads with command squads and various hwt scattered in there) cost less than 3 of my leman russ tanks.


Dont get me wrong, i still have all of my armies. Some are more built than others. Maybe if costs for things like rule books come down to a more reasonable level, like the cost of WM/H books, I may "rejoin" playing 40k. Until then, i am enjoying the heck out of hell dorado, malifaux and WM

Ill have to think about doing this-my IG is only at 1.5K. I do really want to expand on it but at GWs prices i may have to follow in your footsteps.

Alkasyn wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I still have my skaven, SMs and IG but i rarely play them anymore. lugging them down to my club is just to much like hardwork when my Warmachines fits into 2 small containers and can snuggle down in my bag along with my magic, yugioh, dice, books, etc. That and the fact i can nolonger afford the BRB for 40K. I mean compare its price of around £60-£70 to the warmachine army book that is similar in size and contains many of the basic units for each faction at only £25-£30 depending on wether or not you want it in softback or hardback.

MY Infinity army fits in a lunchbox with a lot of room to spare, and is also the reason I prefer to go play it at the FLGS over W40K.

This is what i am talking about. GW has become so focussed around selling tons of minatures that the rules and army lists now require you to lug an unseemly gakload of minatures around in those ridicoulously huge "suitcase" carriers that they sell along with the minatures at extreme prices.
I cant take a huge case of minis to college-thats just stupid but as i said before my warmachine, and as you have said Alkasyn infinity along with Deepwars and Malifaux and a multitude of other small scale games can be transported around quite easily in your breifcase/college bag/etc allowing you to head down to the local store/club/whatever and have a good game that can be even more fun than the more unweildly GW games. I would play WHFB/40K more often if it did not mean lugging half a ton of minis around.

Oh and for all you people now stuck with your GW minis and no game to use them in- http://www.freewargamesrules.co.uk/ -I use many of the rules off this for my GW minis

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Those aren't price changes. They're different kits entirely. You want to look at their price increases, then all you simply need to do is compare a box'o'Catachans when it was first released to a box'O'Catachans now.

If an old Wych costs more than 2x the amount of the new Wych, the price of a Wych has been better than halved. My point is that prices fluctuate in both directions as GW replaces expensive metals with cheap plastics (see Dark Eldar, Grey Knights, Necrons, Chaos Raptors), and that thinking GW just monolithically increases prices is highly one sided.

But let's take a macro-scale view instead of cherry-picking units to advocate one side or the other. Here are the models I used in the last game I played:

1 Librarian
2 Dreadnoughts
20 Tactical Marines
10 Scouts
2 Stormtalons
2 Vindicators
1 Rhino
1 Imperial Bastion

Discounting the Stormtalons and Bastion, which don't have clear 2004 equivalents, these models would have cost 290 USD in 2004. In 2012, they cost 384.75 USD. Sounds like prices went up a lot, right? But with inflation taken into account, the 2004 models actually cost 341.51 in 2011 dollars. So prices went up by 12 percent over 8 years? Sounds... entirely reasonable.

Every listed model except the Rhino and debatably the Dreadnought also is a better kit now than it was in 2004, with more options and bitz (or a better sculpt in the case of the Librarian), and to make matters even worse, Dreadnoughts can now be easily acquired for 20 dollars (often less) on eBay thanks to GW's excellent Battle for Black Reach starter set. So the real cost of the above purchases in 2012 is 332.25 USD-- lower than the inflation-adjusted 2004 equivalent!

If you count Tactical Squads at starter set eBay prices (12 USD) as well (and note that starter set Tactical Squads actually have the same options as 2004 Tactical Squads), the 2012 bundle comes to 281.75. This is strictly less than the same bundle of models in 2004. Adjusted for inflation, it is a 21% price decrease.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Stop deluding yourself.

How is it "deluding myself" to say that prices have not significantly increased as a whole and in some cases have gone down when, in my case, prices for a bundle of units that I actually use (not specific cherry-picked examples) increased by 12 percent at most over 8 years (with a great increase in model quality to boot), and actually went down if you consider starter set models?

I wouldn't say I've "quit" GW, I still have my armies for both 40K and Fantasy, but only play when I can't convince my son to play something else. For my position in life it's just too expensive IMHO for me to buy their product, simple as that.

It's only because of the embargo that I stopped, I'm not paying ridiculous NZ or Oz retail prices when for a fraction of GW's prices I can build up 5 forces for Malifaux, Infinity and FoW, while also buying board and card games to play with family and friends.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Uhm? We just had a prince increase of about 5-10% on everything e.g. Necron Warriors going from 26 -> 30€, AB 26€ -> 29€ and let's not start about the Stormraven or the monolith...and don't even get me started on those TWENTY EUROS character models. I mean...wow!

So we're allowed to select one or two things and draw a trend from them?

Imperial guardsmen have stayed the same, and flamers have gone down. Therefore on average, prices are actually going down. Stop whinging.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

When I made my "parking lot" guard army, i bought nearly all of my infantry from Wargames Factory. Using their "sci fi greatcoat infantry" I was able to create a 2k point 'death korp' army. The infantry models for the whole army, (3 platoons of 4 squads with command squads and various hwt scattered in there) cost less than 3 of my leman russ tanks.

I'm sorry but if you showed up with a couple hundred of these:



I'd just laugh. Those guys look awful, you pay as well use paper cut-outs if you want to save money.

Not that non-GW models can be used as a cheaper alternative but it's rare that they're genuinely as good as GW models.

I'm not sure I'm "in deep" enough to quit. I primarily collect, build, and paint. I intend to start playing, in that halfhearted way that involves staying vaguely in touch with rulebooks and codices and considering infantry models in terms of fieldable units, but I've yet to actually play more than a handful of games with other beginners (and all of those in 5th ed.) I haven't bought a new GW model in... I don't even know how long it's been, now (my GW abstinence has become a toddler - time is now measured in years with fractional remainders, not double-digit months). I'm still painting my backlog, though, and I still intend to start playing, someday.

Price increases have been the major bar, for me, leading me to direct new purchases toward other game systems, like Infinity and KoW/WFB (all Mantic models, regardless of what I end up playing, hypothetically) - FoW is looking pretty attractive, too, if I ever get a large sum of money dropped in my lap, and I've recently picked up a few single models from various companies, just to paint. I see no point in claiming to have quit, though, just because I've stopped buying, whether for the time being or permanently. I treat the hobby as "the hobby," not "The Hobby" and I'm happier for it. People drift in and out of all sorts of circles and activities. The internet, I imagine, is primarily responsible for the inflated number of apparent rage-quitters.

 Testify wrote:
Therefore on average, prices are actually going down. Stop whinging.

Fish. There we go, if we are going to start writing random stuff that has no bearing on reality, then that can be my addition to this 'discussion'.

Kingsley - Can I ask where you have got that single 12% figure from, when on average most of the range has increased by between 10-15% (as an average) over the previous 4-5 years every year, and intermittently before that?

I'd just laugh. Those guys look awful, you pay as well use paper cut-outs if you want to save money.

Not that non-GW models can be used as a cheaper alternative but it's rare that they're genuinely as good as GW models.

Well, that's something that is entirely down to your own opinion. Personally I think those look better than the GW Cadians. I also think the Mantic Corporation minis look better and are also significantly cheaper.

There are tons of other minis from the likes of Anvil Industries, Pig Iron and Victoria's Miniatures (the latter being ex-GW - might cause some kind of feedback-loop and/or cranial implosion for people who therefore can't decide if they should like them or not?) Those are more expensive, although laughably (considering these are practically garage producers, make short production runs of metal/resin) not by much.

 Testify wrote:


I'd just laugh.

Then you'd have just lost your game, as if it were me I wouldn't hanging around to play you if you were to laugh at what I'd brought. You can feel superior by yourself.

Well, that's something that is entirely down to your own opinion. Personally I think those look better than the GW Cadians. I also think the Mantic Corporation minis look better and are also significantly cheaper.

What he said. There's nothing inherently brilliant about anything GW do, just people that have decided that the cash they've dropped on fairly average sculpts needs to be justified somehow.

I love 6th edition 40k more than anything since I started in third. It is much more fun for me to play, I see more variety on the tabletop at tournaments and army lists take on an entirely different feel. Always some tweek that I can make, I cant seem to make an armylist the same way twice. This is exemplified in the new chaos book. So many choices, the only limit right now is the models and that will chance once I get an order in from forgeworld. When I add the noise marines I am going to convert into the mix, ohhh boy its just going to get harder. Hell I spend more time making lists than playing right now(no convenient game store)

 Pacific wrote:
Kingsley - Can I ask where you have got that single 12% figure from, when on average most of the range has increased by between 10-15% (as an average) over the previous 4-5 years every year, and intermittently before that?

From going to an archive of the GW webstore from August 2004 and adding it up myself, adjusting for inflation, then comparing to today's prices. The "10-15% annual price increase" is a myth for three reasons.

First, not all items are increased in any given increase, so while there might be a 10-15% average price increase on items that are increased, this is very different from an overall 10% price increase. For example, Terminators are currently 50.00 and have been so for quite some time, as they have not been included in recent price increases.

Second, some price increases are really just keeping up with inflation and shouldn't be counted when comparing to historical prices.

Third, some of these price increases come alongside model improvements. For instance, the new Space Marine Captain is significantly more expensive than the old Space Marine Captain-- but that's because the new Space Marine Captain is an extremely customizable multi-part plastic kit, while the old Space Marine Captain was a single-pose metal. So while prices went up, quality did too.

Lastly, some items actually decrease in price. Of the last five major 40k releases (Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Necrons, and Chaos), three of the five (Dark Eldar, Grey Knights, and Necrons) featured metal models being converted to cheaper and better multi-part plastic kits. For instance, in 2004 it would cost you 50 dollars-- 2004 dollars, mind you-- to buy 5 Necron Immortals; in 2012 it costs 33 2012 dollars for 5 of the same Immortals, which now have better sculpts and come with Deathmark bitz...

Also keep in mind that my conclusion is that prices for my Space Marines have actually *decreased* thanks to the availability of very cheap starter set models. Overall, I found there was a 21% price decrease from 2004 to 2012 once inflation is taking in to account. You might say that this doesn't apply to every army-- and you'd be right-- but since Space Marines are the flagship army, and they haven't increased significantly (and have in fact decreased when some options are considered), I think saying that GW constantly increases prices is silly at best.

 Pacific wrote:

Well, that's something that is entirely down to your own opinion. Personally I think those look better than the GW Cadians. I also think the Mantic Corporation minis look better and are also significantly cheaper.

I know we're going off on a tangent here, but this is a good point. Not everyone has the same preferences when it comes to models. I prefer the Cadians and DKoK to the other alternatives listed here. If I were to add IG allies, it would ONLY be Cadians or DKoK (Forge World), as I dislike the Mantic Corporation and the War Games Factory sci-fi minis and outright HATE the Games Workshop Catachans. However, I do like a number of the Pig Irons heads and add-ons. Again, to each their own.

That being said, only a snobbish person would laugh at someone that chose a different look (Wargames Factory or Pig Iron) over, say GW Cadians.

 Leth wrote:
I love 6th edition 40k more than anything since I started in third. It is much more fun for me to play, I see more variety on the tabletop at tournaments and army lists take on an entirely different feel. Always some tweek that I can make, I cant seem to make an armylist the same way twice. This is exemplified in the new chaos book. So many choices, the only limit right now is the models and that will chance once I get an order in from forgeworld. When I add the noise marines I am going to convert into the mix, ohhh boy its just going to get harder. Hell I spend more time making lists than playing right now(no convenient game store)

My experience are pretty much the same as yours in 6th. I have over 40 games in so far in 6th and its been a great time.

Purely anecdotal stuff here, but from my group of gaming buddies around half of them stopped playing when we left college. Another one recently got rid of his last army because he was annoyed with the game (he completely dropped out of wargaming in fact.) One still has his army, and plays occasionally but not terribly often. He hasn't bought anything new in years though (one or two necron armies off of eBay, and I don't think he's bought a rulebook or codex ever.) Another played until quite recently, but was sufficiently disappointed in the Chaos release that he's been burnt out on the game; I imagine he'll probably come back, but he's quite happy playing X-Wing and Infinity for now.

I don't have any real plans on quitting. Of course with my friends losing interest I've been playing less, but the Battle Bunker near me is a pretty good shop so I'll go there for games and generally have a good time. I've been thinking of quitting collecting new armies because, honestly, it's lost the fun it once had... I've painted the same damn Space Marine over 100 times, I'm now just experimenting on different ways to speed paint. That's hardly quitting 40k though, it's just me finally realizing I'm not actually having fun playing Pokemon 40,000.

I'll continue to play 40k and Fantasy because I like the models and I know I can always get a game when I want. Still, they are slowly pricing me out of the hobby.

Malifaux is working on replacing GW as my hobby of choice but the nail in the coffin will be getting more people involved in that game. Players are still pretty sparce out west.

 Testify wrote:
Therefore on average, prices are actually going down.

You must exist in some wired bizarro world where GW prices go down every June, yet your Internet connection somehow gets through to our reality.

The only explanation is that you’re bonkers, because GW prices aren’t going down. The change from metal to FineCost saw the entire range of metals go up in price despite the change from expensive metal to cheap-as-chips resin. Plastic minis that came 18-20 to a box now come in roughly half that amount for the almost the same cost as their predecessors. Their prices go up every June out. Of. Line with inflation.

I honestly don’t know which of our current pom-pom-waving GW cheer squad is more deluded – you (“Prices are going down!”), Zwei (“GW is basically a discounter”) or Kaldor ([too many to quote]). Even before he mellowed and at the height of his “must defend GW against any and all threats” period there is no way that Kan would have said GW prices were going down. No one is that bat-gak crazy.

 Testify wrote:
Not that non-GW models can be used as a cheaper alternative but it's rare that they're genuinely as good as GW models.

This is laughable, especially given its so utterly subjective. "Genuinely as good"? What does that even mean???