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 Testify wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
What else could it possibly be? By GWs own admission they are a model selling company, not a rules company, so what else can it be when the rules suddenly make it so people need to buy more models to play at the same points level?

Given that the points value of games is up to the players, I'm not convinced of this. People buy what they can afford, they don't take out second mortages to get from 1800 points to 2000 points.

You do realise that the price in points in a guard codex for instance, has gone down? Same for the Chaos codex, marine codex and many others?

So if you wan't to play a game of 1500 points in 6th edition it will take many more miniatures than it did to do the same game size in 4th. That is what people are refering to when they say that it takes more models to play a game now than it did in 4th edition.

You do have this knowledge don't you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ravenous D wrote:

-Having the head north american trainer give fantastic advice like "kick out all your regulars and start a new customer base" in a low foot traffic area only to have the same person written up for not doing enough demos.

That is not just in NA, I heard the exact same advice from a GW sales rep to my LGS owner...

What the hell happened to this thread?

A quickie guys:

If you hate 8th Edition fantasy so much, then why don't you just play 7th?

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
A quickie guys:

If you hate 8th Edition fantasy so much, then why don't you just play 7th?

I do! Or actually I'm trying to set up a few 7th ed games since I miss Fantasy so much. But most of my regular group of opponents just prefer to play Warmahordes at this point than to go and dig out their old 7th ed books.

Is quitting GW games a trend? Sure... if you're the largest single game producer in the market with the most customers, you're also likely to have the highest number of ex-customers as well for various reasons. Some may be due to corporate decisions like the price increases and finecast switchover bungling whereas other players stop due to nonrelated issues like work/school/spouse/kids/etc. Unless you've got a ridiculously awesome ruleset that keeps almost everyone playing (GW doesn't....), I'd expect the biggest company in terms of customers to also have the highest loss rate as well.

I am going to keep playing 40k and maybe buy the odd one or two models every couple of months. I don't want to quit as I have an army which I have spent ages on painting and collecting and also have a growing number of Horus Heresy and Chaos books (love the fluff). The last big purchase of 40k will be Dark Vengeance, then I plan to start to pump money into other games.

Well, no one I know plays GW games anymore.

And really, it's not surprising. Their games are strategically shallow, and apart from a couple lines the quality of their miniature aesthetic has been decreasing even as the prices of the minis perpetually increases. Really the only thing GW ever had going for it was that it was ubiquitous and standard.

Basically, GW is the McDonald's of miniature gaming. It's not especially good, but it's easy, and you can go anywhere in the world and have a rough idea of what you're getting with them. Unfortunately for the customers, GW thinks it's the Porsche of gaming.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

So you admit the price increases are reasonable? I'm glad we're agreed.

I... what?

He doesn't really get how arguments work. Most White Knights are like that. Best to leave him be and leave the thread like I have (did!).

Right. You want an argument. I base what I said on evidence, which as I predicted you have flat-out ignored.

Waiting impatiently on my forge world order to come in so that I can start cranking out Auto-cannon toting MKIII armored guys to use in an HH army and my Chaos army.

I really like modeling and painting side of the 40k hobby.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
A quickie guys:

If you hate 8th Edition fantasy so much, then why don't you just play 7th?

Try finding a tournament that still uses 7th.

GW is insanely expensive, last price I checked was new Tyranid Warriors box and it was 50$ equivalent, three tiny plastic guys. You can get 7 half litre bottles of good enough quality booze here for that. I stopped buying new GW stuff after DV only buy used now and those are still expensive thanks to GW prices being so high.

That said for me it's either 40k or nothing, I am not going to invest mind space into another sf/ fantasy fluff, rules etc, not to mention I prefer GW models over competitors which I find too warcraftish or overly sleek or just of lower quality. I don't like overly realistic proportions either, historic games are meant to give me that - I know that bad proportions in 40k come from early difficulties in casting but it kind of fits the ridiculous fluff. Anyway if 40 pisses me off to much I'm done with sf/ fantasy wargaming then and switch to realistic modern war systems or WW2, another set of made up names would make me go postal in no time.

Ruleset is flawed but has it still somehow works, there are changes for worse but there are also new things that are imo good like flyers or directional combat, I can live with 6th they almost crossed a line for me but almost.

btw what's that with 8th edition being luck based and GW being punished for it sales - wise, is that true? Sounds like great news, I only wish them a big slap in the face for their crap rulesets so that would be the one maybe. How bad is that vs earlier editions?

 Sigvatr wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
A quickie guys:

If you hate 8th Edition fantasy so much, then why don't you just play 7th?

Try finding a tournament that still uses 7th.

Oh, look. A strawman argument.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
A quickie guys:

If you hate 8th Edition fantasy so much, then why don't you just play 7th?

Try finding a tournament that still uses 7th.

Try running one if you can't find it. Even then, if your mob like playing 7th ed, what does it matter if there aren't any tournaments? Unless you see tourneys as the be-all and end-all of the gaming continuum?

My club pretty much only plays 5th ed 40k these days (when it comes to 40k). Other clubs I know only play 2nd ed.
I played 3rd ed fantasy (years ago) and nothing before 8th ed, so I don't know if the previous editions were better/worse and don't care.

I suppose like anything it just needs a gaming group that enjoys game to be played in a similar manner.

I've run different Necromunda/Mordheim campaigns in the past that use quite heavily modified rules that (at least we thought) improved the game a great deal. The problem is though going into a pick-up-game situation you can't expect to use those rules, and are stuck with the ruleset your opponent has in their hand - and almost certainly that ruleset will be the latest one.

I guess it's just another reason to make a gaming group in a club or FLGS, if it's one that has a regular attendance.

 Breotan wrote:
Oh, look. A strawman argument.

Uhh... that wasn’t a strawman argument.

He was asked why he doesn’t just play 7th, and he said “You try finding a Tournament that uses 7th”. I think the implications are pretty fething obvious – He plays in tournaments, and wants to continue to play in tournaments, and because no tournaments run 7th, he has to play 8th.

No straw in there at all. Hell... he wasn’t even making an argument. He was answering a question.

I am part of a club here in Brazil and have contact with another one. In both cases, 40K has ceased to be the main game in the club. People who were just getting into the game here quit over 6th edition making their armies moot before they ever got to field them.

In my case, there's still a bit of 40K going on, because 4-6 people have armies that still work. But FoW, Infinity, Warmachine and even Dropzone Commander have picked up lots of steam. Hell, we even started a Mordheim campaign so people could play games and be in the hobby without being jerked around by GW.

In the other club it has been even more pronounced. They are actually holding tournaments of the other systems, where before 40K and Fantasy were the only ones that had enough people to make organizing feasible.

 Sephyr wrote:
I am part of a club here in Brazil and have contact with another one. In both cases, 40K has ceased to be the main game in the club. People who were just getting into the game here quit over 6th edition making their armies moot before they ever got to field them.

In my case, there's still a bit of 40K going on, because 4-6 people have armies that still work. But FoW, Infinity, Warmachine and even Dropzone Commander have picked up lots of steam. Hell, we even started a Mordheim campaign so people could play games and be in the hobby without being jerked around by GW.

In the other club it has been even more pronounced. They are actually holding tournaments of the other systems, where before 40K and Fantasy were the only ones that had enough people to make organizing feasible.

You see, this kind of thing is good for the industry. Those games are good, and are worth playing. They deserve to be played. The problem is when people play one game only (say, they might only play 40k), then leave entirely, selling their stuff, and picking up one other game entirely. There's no reason to do this, and it hurts both the industry and your options in the hobby.

If those people who now play, say, Dropzone Commander, don't play 40k for a long time, that's just normal. They've got a new, shiny game to play. The itch always comes back to play an older game though - which is why you keep at least one army around from a game you 'left'. Broadening your gaming options doesn't mean entirely getting rid of a whole system, that's just moving.

This is why I also prefer to stick to one army per system. You get to play more than one game, and you'll still have regular releases for the armies you collect.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:
I am part of a club here in Brazil and have contact with another one. In both cases, 40K has ceased to be the main game in the club. People who were just getting into the game here quit over 6th edition making their armies moot before they ever got to field them.

In my case, there's still a bit of 40K going on, because 4-6 people have armies that still work. But FoW, Infinity, Warmachine and even Dropzone Commander have picked up lots of steam. Hell, we even started a Mordheim campaign so people could play games and be in the hobby without being jerked around by GW.

In the other club it has been even more pronounced. They are actually holding tournaments of the other systems, where before 40K and Fantasy were the only ones that had enough people to make organizing feasible.

You see, this kind of thing is good for the industry. Those games are good, and are worth playing. They deserve to be played. The problem is when people play one game only (say, they might only play 40k), then leave entirely, selling their stuff, and picking up one other game entirely. There's no reason to do this, and it hurts both the industry and your options in the hobby.

If those people who now play, say, Dropzone Commander, don't play 40k for a long time, that's just normal. They've got a new, shiny game to play. The itch always comes back to play an older game though - which is why you keep at least one army around from a game you 'left'. Broadening your gaming options doesn't mean entirely getting rid of a whole system, that's just moving.

This is why I also prefer to stick to one army per system. You get to play more than one game, and you'll still have regular releases for the armies you collect.

I generally agree. The difference is that most of the people who changed here didn't just see something new and shelved their 40K. They threw it away with great force.

One of my friends had gotten into the game around february this year. By June he had a very nice Khorne Daemon army with plenty of juggernauts, bloodletters, the works. Not top-competitive but enough to have fun with, and definitely much better painted than my first army.

Then 6E dropped and well, sorry, all of that sucks now. Buy FMCs or go home, pal. He tried selling his army, failed to find a buyer, nearly left the hobby and pretty much only stayed because we pitched in to get him tons of bits to join our Mordheim campaign.

Pretty similar with my friend who did the same with nids, making a Genestealer-themed army. Didn't said he'd leave, but he has mostly been around to talk and play FoW using someoe else's army to get the basics right.

Most of the gaming group around here have quit playing GW games as they are just sick of everything GW does.
There used to be around 20-40 40k and 20-40 WHFB players and now there are around 10-15 of each.
At this point the only time I can get games in now is if I go to tournaments and they take the "fun" out of the game.

40k went from having 20+ players around 2007 to having, what, 4 people in my area?

"Yes, I completely quit them for other game."

I so wish this current chaos codex was in 5th ed (which I somewhat played) then now, which I find truly unplayable
fantasy has many drawbacks, but if I just don't use magic I find it plays better (so I dug up my khorne chaos warrior army)
no one really plays much where i am, not that i know, except magic the gathering, which i now focus mainly on, trading off my leftover 40k stuff and painting fantasy here and there

 Sephyr wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:
I am part of a club here in Brazil and have contact with another one. In both cases, 40K has ceased to be the main game in the club. People who were just getting into the game here quit over 6th edition making their armies moot before they ever got to field them.

In my case, there's still a bit of 40K going on, because 4-6 people have armies that still work. But FoW, Infinity, Warmachine and even Dropzone Commander have picked up lots of steam. Hell, we even started a Mordheim campaign so people could play games and be in the hobby without being jerked around by GW.

In the other club it has been even more pronounced. They are actually holding tournaments of the other systems, where before 40K and Fantasy were the only ones that had enough people to make organizing feasible.

You see, this kind of thing is good for the industry. Those games are good, and are worth playing. They deserve to be played. The problem is when people play one game only (say, they might only play 40k), then leave entirely, selling their stuff, and picking up one other game entirely. There's no reason to do this, and it hurts both the industry and your options in the hobby.

If those people who now play, say, Dropzone Commander, don't play 40k for a long time, that's just normal. They've got a new, shiny game to play. The itch always comes back to play an older game though - which is why you keep at least one army around from a game you 'left'. Broadening your gaming options doesn't mean entirely getting rid of a whole system, that's just moving.

This is why I also prefer to stick to one army per system. You get to play more than one game, and you'll still have regular releases for the armies you collect.

I generally agree. The difference is that most of the people who changed here didn't just see something new and shelved their 40K. They threw it away with great force.

One of my friends had gotten into the game around february this year. By June he had a very nice Khorne Daemon army with plenty of juggernauts, bloodletters, the works. Not top-competitive but enough to have fun with, and definitely much better painted than my first army.

Then 6E dropped and well, sorry, all of that sucks now. Buy FMCs or go home, pal. He tried selling his army, failed to find a buyer, nearly left the hobby and pretty much only stayed because we pitched in to get him tons of bits to join our Mordheim campaign.

Your friend tried to field an all assault army that was also an all deep striking army. Sounds like he collected for fluff reasons since power-wise an all-khorne list sucks ass in 5th and 6th alike.

As GW plc seem to have quit bothering delivering decent game play, in regaurds to tactical depth and game balance.

So customers who think quality rules and game play are important probably will go else where.

GW plc belive its core demoghraphic are' enthusiastic collectors'.


''Yeah you can spend all your time and money on several units in the codex but they simply are not that effective in game.But by the time you find that out we have your money and are ready to sell you 'better options' untill we nerf them next edition.''

When I started wargames again, I got back into 40K, and intended to get back into Fantasy at some point. The former didn't really last, and the second didn't really happen.

I think my dissatisfaction stems from a simple thing--I don't feel like GW want me to have enjoyable games, instead they want to sell me stuff above all other priorities. Yes, other companies want to sell me stuff, but with Wyrd, Privateer, etc, I get the impression that they also care about balancing the game and making it genuinely tactical. With GW, everything seems to be a gambit to get more money. Neglecting unpopular armies for multiple editions while bringing out yet another Space Marine codex. Making flying units the new hotness, so that people have to buy allies or fortifications to counter that. The cycle of various units fluctating in power based on quirks of the rules as editions change, rather than their effectiveness having anything to do with their points cost. (I remember a thread from here about someone lamenting having to convert 120 Orks to have shootas to stay useful, which seems insane). And of course, the price hikes for reasons that can include "We now use a cheaper material." and "These minis are based on movies, so the bubble won't last long.".

And so on. GW probably couldn't be more honest about how they're desperately trying to milk the fanbase for as much money as possible, everything comes second to that desire, and they don't really give a toss about how workable their games are. And I don't really want to support such a cynical attitude.

 Elemental wrote:
When I started wargames again, I got back into 40K, and intended to get back into Fantasy at some point. The former didn't really last, and the second didn't really happen.

I think my dissatisfaction stems from a simple thing--I don't feel like GW want me to have enjoyable games, instead they want to sell me stuff above all other priorities. Yes, other companies want to sell me stuff, but with Wyrd, Privateer, etc, I get the impression that they also care about balancing the game and making it genuinely tactical. With GW, everything seems to be a gambit to get more money. Neglecting unpopular armies for multiple editions while bringing out yet another Space Marine codex. Making flying units the new hotness, so that people have to buy allies or fortifications to counter that. The cycle of various units fluctating in power based on quirks of the rules as editions change, rather than their effectiveness having anything to do with their points cost. (I remember a thread from here about someone lamenting having to convert 120 Orks to have shootas to stay useful, which seems insane). And of course, the price hikes for reasons that can include "We now use a cheaper material." and "These minis are based on movies, so the bubble won't last long.".

And so on. GW probably couldn't be more honest about how they're desperately trying to milk the fanbase for as much money as possible, everything comes second to that desire, and they don't really give a toss about how workable their games are. And I don't really want to support such a cynical attitude.

Holy gak exalted

Games Workshop killed my dog and stole my bike.

 Breotan wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
A quickie guys:

If you hate 8th Edition fantasy so much, then why don't you just play 7th?

Try finding a tournament that still uses 7th.

Oh, look. A strawman argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

...because I care about education

There is no tournament in my local meta that still runs 7th, all run 8th, especially the major ones. Same thing back then before I sold my WHFB army.

That's a fair point, can't argue with that one.

But supposing that there was a tournament that ran 7th edition, and you didn't sell your army, would you play in it?

Lanrak wrote:
As GW plc seem to have quit bothering delivering decent game play, in regaurds to tactical depth and game balance.

So customers who think quality rules and game play are important probably will go else where.

Hmm. I've found that 6th edition 40k is much more deep and tactically interesting than 5th edition 40k was. I suppose your mileage may vary?

In my area the local shop is the biggest den of anti gw people ever. I won't bash other systems but man they make it seem like if you play gw you are evil and should be killed. But I always point out I enjoy painting and converting. Other games seem to lack the ability to freely create new models.