With the Legiones Astartes, the Emperor and his Primarchs, the Imperial Truth and so many things the post-Heresy Imperium so foolishly discarded (though not without reason, but still foolishly IMO), which factions in the 41st Millennium could stand against the Great Crusade-era Imperium?

Note: Naturally this disregards the post-Heresy Imperium and the Traitor Legions, since they're both grew from the ruins of that young and vigorous empire.

Chaos could. They did it once, they could do it again.

The Imperium's greatest enemy was itself - which is why it was not foolish at all to discard that which brought it to its knees.

Of the other factions ... 'nids, I would assume. Just because they appear to have an endless resource of troops, and you cannot recapture that which they have conquered once.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Chaos could. They did it once, they could do it again.

That's why I said don't involve the post-Heresy Imperium or the Traitor Legions

I suppose its my fault for not being totally clear on this scenario: Chaos is contained, the Immaterium harnessed for the good of Mankind, the Primarchs are all loyal, and the Emperor reigns and governs (in other words, reason and technological certainty are the rule of the day as opposed to superstition and faith).

 Lynata wrote:
The Imperium's greatest enemy was itself - which is why it was not foolish at all to discard that which brought it to its knees.

Except by discarding its ideals, the Imperium has condemned itself to a slow death. It is unlikely in the extreme that the Emperor will be restored/resurrected/or even become a 'god'. It is even more unlikely (perhaps even impossible) for the post-Heresy Imperium to reclaim/surpass the achievements of the Great Crusade, much less survive.

Of the other factions ... 'nids, I would assume. Just because they appear to have an endless resource of troops, and you cannot recapture that which they have conquered once.

Point.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Chaos could. They did it once, they could do it again.

That's why I said don't involve the post-Heresy Imperium or the Traitor Legions

I suppose its my fault for not being totally clear on this scenario: Chaos is contained, the Immaterium harnessed for the good of Mankind, the Primarchs are all loyal, and the Emperor reigns and governs (in other words, reason and technological certainty are the rule of the day as opposed to superstition and faith).

Chaos is more than just the Traitor Legions. That said, with those conditions, no one. Possibly the Tyranids and possibly the Necrons, depending on how many 'Nids arrive simultaneously and how many Necrons wake up, but with all the Legiones Astartes and the Emperor Humanity would crush pretty much any resistance. Not even the Orks would stand much of a chance. The "immaterium harnessed for the good of Mankind" part really seals the deal.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Chaos could. They did it once, they could do it again.

That's why I said don't involve the post-Heresy Imperium or the Traitor Legions

I suppose its my fault for not being totally clear on this scenario: Chaos is contained, the Immaterium harnessed for the good of Mankind, the Primarchs are all loyal, and the Emperor reigns and governs (in other words, reason and technological certainty are the rule of the day as opposed to superstition and faith).

Chaos is more than just the Traitor Legions. That said, with those conditions, no one. Possibly the Tyranids and possibly the Necrons, depending on how many 'Nids arrive simultaneously and how many Necrons wake up, but with all the Legiones Astartes and the Emperor Humanity would crush pretty much any resistance. Not even the Orks would stand much of a chance. The "immaterium harnessed for the good of Mankind" part really seals the deal.

Hmmm...'nids and 'crons would be hard nuts to crack, even with the Warp at Mankind's disposal. The Orks too would count if they were under a strong leader like Ghazghkull.

EDIT: As for Chaos Daemons...yeah. Leman Russ and the Wolves would just sweep in and burn everything to ashes.

Well, if the Iom stays together and the Heresy never happens then it's basically game over. Chaos would either be gone or so weak that it would be difficult for it to mount any real offensive (which was part of the Emporer's plan in encouraging a secular society). The Eldar were already fallen at the time of the crusade and would have that much more trouble against a united Iom at the hieght of it's power and would possibly be even CLOSER to extinction than they are now. The Dark Eldar are hardly a large scale threat in the current setting so no big shakes there, and the Tau would pretty much just be a speed bump at the rim of the segmentum.

So that leaves (if I'm not mistaken), the 'Crons, the Orks and the 'Nids. The Old Crons could have been a bigger threat due to fully functioning C'tan (who likely would have completely annihilated the severly weakened Chaos gods), but in their current incarnation, and considering that they are just isolated pockets, I don't see them doing severe mass trauma unless they can somehow manage to get everyone awake and moving at the same time. Which won't happen imo. So it's down to the nids and Orks. For the nids, I'm not sure if they would still be drawn into the galaxy by the Astronomicon. I can't remember how that worked BEFORE Big E was put on the throne, but if they came, they could be an issue.

Finally the Orks. The HH books lead you to believe they were being absolutely butchered and forced back out of the galaxy left and right at the time of the Great Crusade. While I don't think the Orks would ever have been completely wiped out, I also don't think they'd have the foothold they have now. It would more be a case of fending off the occasional small scale incursion or even the large scale WAAAAGH!. With all the other threats pretty much at bay, I don't think the IoM would have too much issue beating them back.


So anyway, just my two sense.

@Tycho

The Astronomican worked as it does now, except the Emperor personally powered it as opposed to being fed with ten thousand psykers (which was supposed to be only a temporary measure, until work on the Imperial Webway was complete).

EDIT: I think we're underestimating the Dark Eldar. Even with the Webway under Imperial control, wandering around its darkest, lowest depths would prove difficult even for Great Crusade-era/style Imperial forces. They could be (along with the 'nids and oldcrons) the biggest enemies for a united Imperium.

@Tycho

The Astronomican worked as it does now, except the Emperor personally powered it as opposed to being fed with ten thousand psykers (which was supposed to be only a temporary measure, until work on the Imperial Webway was complete).

EDIT: I think we're underestimating the Dark Eldar. Even with the Webway under Imperial control, wandering around its darkest, lowest depths would prove difficult even for Great Crusade-era/style Imperial forces. They could be (along with the 'nids and oldcrons) the biggest enemies for a united Imperium.

Ah! Thanks for that. I figured the Astro. worked in some fashion but couldn't remember the specifics. That then, puts the Nids at the top of my threat list.

Now that I think about it though, you may have a point about the Dark Eldar. That point could apply to ALL Eldar. I mean, if the Chaos gods end up severely weakend (as was the Emps plan), does Slaanesh survive, and do the Dark Eldar then need to be constantly hiding and using hit and run tactics. Without the fear of Slaanesh, would they be able to raise a much larger military and really martial their forces? That's an interesting (and scary) possability.

Tycho wrote:
So that leaves (if I'm not mistaken), the 'Crons, the Orks and the 'Nids. The Old Crons could have been a bigger threat due to fully functioning C'tan (who likely would have completely annihilated the severly weakened Chaos gods

Even in the old codex it states that the one weakness of the C'tan is the warp. The only way they can really do anything to harm the Chaos gods is to finish the Void Dragons warp-blocker project.

Tycho wrote:


Now that I think about it though, you may have a point about the Dark Eldar. That point could apply to ALL Eldar. I mean, if the Chaos gods end up severely weakend (as was the Emps plan), does Slaanesh survive, and do the Dark Eldar then need to be constantly hiding and using hit and run tactics. Without the fear of Slaanesh, would they be able to raise a much larger military and really martial their forces? That's an interesting (and scary) possability.

Hmmm...the Dark Eldar, probably. The Craftworld Eldar probably not, since even with Slaanesh weakened, they would still fear losing control over themselves. Maybe they'd make a deal with the Imperium; unlikely but not impossible. Like abandoning the Craftworlds entirely and adopting a rural, lonely, but peaceful existence on Maiden Worlds and other reserved systems under Imperial protection. At least, that's what I would demand/offer the Craftworld Eldar if they wanted to negotiate long-term peace and coexistence.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Except by discarding its ideals, the Imperium has condemned itself to a slow death.

Still better than a quick death.

Also, the chief ideal of the Imperium has been and always will be the survival of Mankind. Anything else is literally just a means to an end, be it the Space Marines or the Ecclesiarchy.

 Lynata wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:Except by discarding its ideals, the Imperium has condemned itself to a slow death.

Still better than a quick death.

Is it?

Also, the chief ideal of the Imperium has been and always will be the survival of Mankind. Anything else is literally just a means to an end, be it the Space Marines or the Ecclesiarchy.

That is its goal. Its ideals were reason and technological certainty.

Admiral Valerian wrote:That is its goal. Its ideals were reason and technological certainty.

You make it sound as if the Adeptus Mechanicus is a Post-Heresy thing.

Reason is fairly subjective as well. I don't think the Emperor cared much how the planets he conquered were governed, or which social policies were instituted there. Unless we are to assume that the High Lords actually countermanded one of the Emperor's decrees - but given that they didn't even do this for the Land Raiders ...

Even in the old codex it states that the one weakness of the C'tan is the warp. The only way they can really do anything to harm the Chaos gods is to finish the Void Dragons warp-blocker project.

That's not exactly correct. They were actually anathema to the warp. It did not weaken them. The Warp Blocker was to help weaken the Chaos gods so they could be finished off. If the Emperor had succeeded in completing the Crusade and creating a secular universe that would have had the same effect on the Chaos gods as the Warp blocker. At that point even Khorne would have been easy takings for the Nightbringer.

GC-era Imperium was an entirely different ballgame. The Astartes were more numerous and far more well-organized/capable. None of this BS of 300 space marines taking a planet. No, you'd get hit by 13,000 instead on a regular basis. The Imperial Army was far more advanced, described as having entire full-strength Regiments of Baneblades. The Collegia Titanica had far more warmachines and the Imperial Fleet had many more of the more advanced ancient designs that are a rarity in M41. You also had the Sisters of Silence and the Adeptus Custodes actively taking part in the fighting, the former of which could seriously mess up Daemons and the Eldar.

Not to mention the Primarchs and Emperor on top of that. So yeah, I don't think any faction in M41 could stand against them. Pretending that the Legio Astartes were at full-strength will simultaneously being attacked by Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade, I think the Imperial forces could crush it somewhat easily.

Full-strength Tyranids and pre-retcon Necrons could still pose serious challenges though. But Ghazghkull, while formidable in M41, seems like he isn't nearly at the level Blackflang or the Ullanor Warboss were.

 Lynata wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:That is its goal. Its ideals were reason and technological certainty.

You make it sound as if the Adeptus Mechanicus is a Post-Heresy thing.

In a way yes. AFAIK, the title 'Adeptus Mechanicus' was never adopted until after the Horus Heresy. Before, they were simply the Mechanicum. And while they had the same religious doctrines and dogma, unlike their post-Heresy incarnation the Mechanicum was actually re-discovering and developing technologies at a rate unseen since the Golden Age of Technology ended. They also understood what they were building, and didn't forget anything. Probably because the Emperor encouraged innovation, daring, and creativity so long as the commandment against AI technology was followed.

Reason is fairly subjective as well. I don't think the Emperor cared much how the planets he conquered were governed, or which social policies were instituted there. Unless we are to assume that the High Lords actually countermanded one of the Emperor's decrees - but given that they didn't even do this for the Land Raiders ...

IIRC, Monarchia was meant to drive home the Emperor's proscriptions against religion. Did they forget?

Admiral Valerian wrote:In a way yes. AFAIK, the title 'Adeptus Mechanicus' was never adopted until after the Horus Heresy. Before, they were simply the Mechanicum. And while they had the same religious doctrines and dogma, unlike their post-Heresy incarnation the Mechanicum was actually re-discovering and developing technologies at a rate unseen since the Golden Age of Technology ended. They also understood what they were building, and didn't forget anything. Probably because the Emperor encouraged innovation, daring, and creativity so long as the commandment against AI technology was followed.

Throughout the millennia, the Mechanicum did not change at all. They received a new prefix, a seat on the Council of High Lords, and new trade contacts. Other than that? The fact that the Mechanicus' Forge Worlds were allowed to remain sovereign satellite states ultimately means that neither the Emperor nor the High Lords had anything to do with the ongoing devolution. Tech-mysticism was already fairly ingrained into the Mechanicus back then - and worse yet, as it was incorporated into the wider Imperium it actually spread to other worlds. The High Lords of today encourage innovation and daring just as much as the Emperor did back then. If you want to blame anyone, look no further than the Fabricator-General and his little cult.

Admiral Valerian wrote:IIRC, Monarchia was meant to drive home the Emperor's proscriptions against religion. Did they forget?

Never read those novels, and don't plan to change that - but keep in mind that "reason" extends far beyond simply getting rid of religious superstition. What about slavery? Equality? Technological uplift? A constitution? Diplomatic contact with alien species?

You seem to limit the issue on "religion" vs "no religion" when there is so much more to it. How do the Night Lords' Emperor-approved terror tactics against civilian populations fit into "reason", for example? You can justify it with the greater good - but the same trick works for the Ecclesiarchy, and any other medieval instrument the Imperium is employing to maintain its grip on the member worlds.

Current era, the Necrons if they woke up. Orks, the crusade never had much luck with them before, beating some but never all. The Nids, and Dark age level Eldar as well, although they did not do all that hot with current craftworld eldar either.

The One and only thing the Crusade era IoM had on anyone was numbers and coordination. Take those away and you hwill hurt them badly.

 Lynata wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:IIRC, Monarchia was meant to drive home the Emperor's proscriptions against religion. Did they forget?

Never read those novels, and don't plan to change that - but keep in mind that "reason" extends far beyond simply getting rid of religious superstition. What about slavery? Equality? Technological uplift? A constitution? Diplomatic contact with alien species?

Humans don't keep slaves. All are equal under the Imperial Administration of Terra. The Imperial Truth set aside faith, superstition, and organized religion for reason, logic, and technological certainty. A constitution is unnecessary under a benevolent dictatorship. Diplomacy with xenos is meaningless when they too place their own interests above that of others and even at Humanity's cost; just look at the Cabal. Why should Humanity treat them any differently?

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

The One and only thing the Crusade era IoM had on anyone was numbers and coordination. Take those away and you hwill hurt them badly.

They had the Imperial Truth - reason and technological certainty. In other words, they had more brains.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Humans don't keep slaves. All are equal under the Imperial Administration of Terra. The Imperial Truth set aside faith, superstition, and organized religion for reason, logic, and technological certainty. A constitution is unnecessary under a benevolent dictatorship. Diplomacy with xenos is meaningless when they too place their own interests above that of others and even at Humanity's cost; just look at the Cabal. Why should Humanity treat them any differently?

Humans do keep slaves. They're just called "indentured workers". Most often it is the unfortunate mutant workforce, but on all too many worlds it is a simple feudal caste-based system where the local nobility lords over the peasantry with absolute power. Furthermore, I assure you that not every single planetary governor was a "benevolent dictator" - and "technological certainty" did not exist ever since the Emperor drew Mars and the Cult Mechanicus back into the Imperium, thereby sanctioning the mystification of knowledge in exchange for a short-term boost in technology transfer and production power.

As for diplomacy - I would assume that there are many examples where the interests of xenos and those of humanity coincide. There have never been two sovereign nations where one would not place its interests above the other. Does that mean we should do away with diplomacy in our real world?

 Lynata wrote:
Furthermore, I assure you that not every single planetary governor was a "benevolent dictator" - and "technological certainty" did not exist ever since the Emperor drew Mars and the Cult Mechanicus back into the Imperium, thereby sanctioning the mystification of knowledge in exchange for a short-term boost in technology transfer and production power.

The benevolent dictator I was referring to is the Emperor and the Imperial Administration of Terra. And when I meant technological certainty, I meant people placing their trust in rational thinking as opposed to 'clapping their hands if they believe'.

There have never been two sovereign nations where one would not place its interests above the other. Does that mean we should do away with diplomacy in our real world?

That's different. The difference between negotiating with Humans and xenos is as great as the distance between Heaven and Earth. Kinda hard to empathize with something that looks, well, alien.

EDIT: As for the mutant workforce, at the risk of sounding bigoted, I find it impossible to sympathize with something that looks like a freak of nature. Which 40k mutants are; their mutations aren't like 'normal' mutations/random quirks like dimples, freckles, purple irises, etc.

Hahaha all are equal under the Imperial Administration of Terra. Yeah much. The IOM is founded upon slavery. Every menial laborer is a slave. I'm sorry, but it's basically in every other word Valerian. Sorry Valerian you are shooting way off there.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Hahaha all are equal under the Imperial Administration of Terra. Yeah much. The IOM is founded upon slavery. Every menial laborer is a slave. I'm sorry, but it's basically in every other word Valerian. Sorry Valerian you are shooting way off there.

You got me there

But then again, the definition of slave I was working on is the Dark Eldar definition. The Imperial definition is close to or even the same as the Roman standard.

If the current factions can't even overcome the existing fractured and stretched-thin Imperium, I don't see how they could defeat the Great-Crusade era Imperium.

Admiral Valerian wrote:The benevolent dictator I was referring to is the Emperor and the Imperial Administration of Terra. And when I meant technological certainty, I meant people placing their trust in rational thinking as opposed to 'clapping their hands if they believe'.

Oh, that's what I thought - but at the end of the day, people won't give two gaks about what the Emperor on faraway Terra is or isn't doing. What matters is what his appointed governor does where they live. And I do not think the Emperor cared much for how the countless humans under his rule actually feel, as long as his armies receive the tithe they require to continue his wars. Just like the Imperium of M41, the Emperor dismissed notions such as enlightenment or comfort for his subjects in favour of mere survival and strength in unity.

Admiral Valerian wrote:That's different. The difference between negotiating with Humans and xenos is as great as the distance between Heaven and Earth. Kinda hard to empathize with something that looks, well, alien.

I don't know, I do not think I would have much difficulty talking to an Eldar or a Tau. Sure, there are others where it might be more difficult based on how they look - but isn't this what we as humans should strive to overcome? Judging a book solely on its cover? If you wish to advertise rational thinking, this is part of it.

Admiral Valerian wrote:EDIT: As for the mutant workforce, at the risk of sounding bigoted, I find it impossible to sympathize with something that looks like a freak of nature.

Understandable, from a human PoV - but also not very rational of you.

Our own real world civilisation used to put such "freaks of nature" into circuses and zoos and showcase them to the public for money. I for one am glad that this practise has been abandoned, at least officially.

 Lynata wrote:
I don't know, I do not think I would have much difficulty talking to an Eldar or a Tau. Sure, there are others where it might be more difficult based on how they look - but isn't this what we as humans should strive to overcome? Judging a book solely on its cover? If you wish to advertise rational thinking, this is part of it.

Gav Thorpe's novels aside, only a really talented Human psyker could begin to deal with Eldar reliably, and only someone on the level of a Primarch or either Malcador and the Emperor themselves could hope to think on the same level as those pointy-eared aliens. Tau make use of mind-control - mind-control helmets, pheromones, re-education camps - they're not exactly much more trustworthy than the Eldar or the Imperium itself.

Admiral Valerian wrote:EDIT: As for the mutant workforce, at the risk of sounding bigoted, I find it impossible to sympathize with something that looks like a freak of nature.

Understandable, from a human PoV - but also not very rational of you.

True enough...guess I'm just too Human, huh?

Our own real world civilisation used to put such "freaks of nature" into circuses and zoos and showcase them to the public for money. I for one am glad that this practise has been abandoned, at least officially.

What do we them 'now' though? Come to think of it, the subject of real-life mutants (naturally excluding mundane mutations like dimples, freckles, etc.) is somewhat painfully lacking in material.

EDIT: I dare anyone to try negotiating with Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Orks, or Necrons

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The One and only thing the Crusade era IoM had on anyone was numbers and coordination. Take those away and you hwill hurt them badly.

And a psyker powerful enough to take on the combined might of the Chaos Gods and win.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
I don't know, I do not think I would have much difficulty talking to an Eldar or a Tau. Sure, there are others where it might be more difficult based on how they look - but isn't this what we as humans should strive to overcome? Judging a book solely on its cover? If you wish to advertise rational thinking, this is part of it.

Gav Thorpe's novels aside, only a really talented Human psyker could begin to deal with Eldar reliably, and only someone on the level of a Primarch or either Malcador and the Emperor themselves could hope to think on the same level as those pointy-eared aliens. Tau make use of mind-control - mind-control helmets, pheromones, re-education camps - they're not exactly much more trustworthy than the Eldar or the Imperium itself.

There is no proof for mind control helmets. What people seem to forget is that the insectoid Vespid society and Tau society might have quite a few things in common. The ability to reliably communicate might have been all that was required to create an alliance. Tau pheromones are equaly unlikely. Whatever effect the Etheral cast seems to have on the other castes, it is inconsistent with the way pheromones work.
Reeducation camps are not truly mind control since they do not actualy enable you to control a person's mind. They merely help to feed the victims with your propaganda of choice.

The Tau might not be trustworthy but they are not genocidial, borderline insane lunatics like the Imperium ( let us trust the guys who would worship a toaster!) or genocidial spaceelfs with a superiority complex.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Gav Thorpe's novels aside, only a really talented Human psyker could begin to deal with Eldar reliably, and only someone on the level of a Primarch or either Malcador and the Emperor themselves could hope to think on the same level as those pointy-eared aliens. Tau make use of mind-control - mind-control helmets, pheromones, re-education camps - they're not exactly much more trustworthy than the Eldar or the Imperium itself.

Why would you need to be a psyker to simply talk with people and strike a deal? I would say it happens often enough in various stories, though due to my limited proficiency in BL novels I can only think of DoW Winter Assault as an example for a successful collaboration. The IG General and Farseer Taldeer basically agreed to combine their forces against the greater threat - and what works there could easily work on a grander scale as well. That it does not is, or so I would assume, largely a result of the Imperium's xenophobia.

As for the Tau, I did not adopt the Xenology author's idea about any pheromones - though there is no "right" or "wrong" opinion on this subject, just conflicting preferences and interpretations. I for one prefer my Tau to be more "political", working to undermine and influence populations via diplomacy, economic dependence and propaganda, rather than simply mind-controlling everyone.

Admiral Valerian wrote:What do we them 'now' though?

That's ... a good question. I would assume they receive medical treatment intended to "normalise" them, allowing them to lead a somewhat ordinary life.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Come to think of it, the subject of real-life mutants (naturally excluding mundane mutations like dimples, freckles, etc.) is somewhat painfully lacking in material.

Hmmh, I don't know, I stumbled over lots of articles on that topic. I guess it's just not a "popular" thing nowadays, else more people would be aware. I distinctively recall reading about Chernobyl babies being born without eyes a few months back, tho. Gruesome story. And it had pictures.

KingDeath wrote:There is no proof for mind control helmets.

Wasn't that in the Codex, though? I recall it was worded somewhat like this, too.

There is really no 40k faction that could withstand the 30k IoM. Imagine the current IoM with more then double the armies, fleets and unity without having to face the other 1/2 of the empire. It is rediculous that any single faction would stand a chance.

Even dropping the 30k IoM in place of the 40k IoM would see all other factions reduced to near nothingless.

Ork = the 30K IoM defeated ork armies that makes Armageddon look like a scrimish.

Eldar = 30k IoM destroyed Craft Wolrds and successfully faught off Dark Eldar. The webway project would have seen the Eldar doomed.

Tau = lol

Chaos = All of chaos feared the IoM and what is was doing so much that they had to trick 1/2 of the empire to rebell. What's left would stand little chance of surviving the old empire's wrath in its current state.

Necrons = Have not awoken "Clean" enough to represent a true threat to old empire.

Renegades = The old empire has armies that were known to be able to end rebellions just by showing up.

You left out the Nids, also I would disagree on both the orks and the Necrons. The Legions did take out one ork Waagh, but it nearly broken them to do so and it was not even the largest waaagh the IoM has ever seen. As for the Necrons a single dynasty could hurt the IoM badly, tow or three at once would be a large issue. All the IoM would have vs the Necrons would be for a small time numbers alone and those only matter if ya can bring them to bear. Which means getting though Necron fleets and orbital defenses.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
You left out the Nids, also I would disagree on both the orks and the Necrons. The Legions did take out one ork Waagh, but it nearly broken them to do so and it was not even the largest waaagh the IoM has ever seen. As for the Necrons a single dynasty could hurt the IoM badly, tow or three at once would be a large issue. All the IoM would have vs the Necrons would be for a small time numbers alone and those only matter if ya can bring them to bear. Which means getting though Necron fleets and orbital defenses.

I did feel like I was leaving someone out but couldn't think of it.

Tyranids = The current IoM had been able to stop the Tyranids with its much more limited resources. Which the old empire could bring more then double the resources would have put them down in a much more meaningfull way.

The awoken Necrons as a race could stand up to the Old Empire but how they are represented in 40k simply do not have the resources to resist an IoM that could truely, truely focus on them. One Tomb World at a time.

The Ullanor campain broke the back of the largest Ork empire and scattered the race. They only exist in 40k because the IoM was unable to keep the preasure on them.

No, the IoM has stopped scouting missions at great lose. They have to kill worlds, which in the logn run is not a good way to "win".

One tomb world at a time does what you really do not want to do..make a new threat to unify them. I do not think you understand the amount of loses you would suffer on an all out assault on a tomb world. Not even the old legions could suffer such loses and remain in fighting trim.

No the Ullanor campain did not "Brake the race" it broke a single waagh. Nothing more man. You can not brake the orks as a race. They are not like humans, eldar or most other races, the Ullanor campaign sent up a signal for all time yelling "Good fight be here!"...look up the beast some time.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
With the Legiones Astartes, the Emperor and his Primarchs, the Imperial Truth and so many things the post-Heresy Imperium so foolishly discarded (though not without reason, but still foolishly IMO), which factions in the 41st Millennium could stand against the Great Crusade-era Imperium?

Note: Naturally this disregards the post-Heresy Imperium and the Traitor Legions, since they're both grew from the ruins of that young and vigorous empire.

Answer: none.
On Tyranids: a Chapter of 1.000 Astartes was enough to bring an entire fleet down ( true, they have suffered great casualties. but results speak for themselves ), what do you think a Legion of several million Astartes would do to them ( in 10.000 years the Legion could grow to this number )?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
You left out the Nids, also I would disagree on both the orks and the Necrons. The Legions did take out one ork Waagh, but it nearly broken them to do so and it was not even the largest waaagh the IoM has ever seen.

The biggest WARGHHH in Imperium history was broken in several minutes after Emperor showed up with 1.000 Custodes.

As for the Necrons a single dynasty could hurt the IoM badly, tow or three at once would be a large issue. All the IoM would have vs the Necrons would be for a small time numbers alone and those only matter if ya can bring them to bear. Which means getting though Necron fleets and orbital defenses.

Necrons can still lose badly if overwhelmed, and against Astartes Legion they would eventually fall - no matter how strong. And Ward made Necron fleet much weaker than it was in Battlefleet Gothic.

The only thing that can defeat 30k IoM is Celestial Orrery.

If I recall that battle was not minutes but hours or days. And only stopped after Horus and the Big E double teamed the lead ork. Not that the orks minded, was a good fight.


As for ward and the fleet, nothing in the new codex says anything about the fleet. The one thing it does say does not fit the history or tech level. Really you can not be a few million years old, colonized the whole of the galaxy and have what seems to be 5 or 6 types of FTL and not have FTL ships.

 Lynata wrote:

Why would you need to be a psyker to simply talk with people and strike a deal? I would say it happens often enough in various stories, though due to my limited proficiency in BL novels I can only think of DoW Winter Assault as an example for a successful collaboration. The IG General and Farseer Taldeer basically agreed to combine their forces against the greater threat - and what works there could easily work on a grander scale as well. That it does not is, or so I would assume, largely a result of the Imperium's xenophobia.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Because Eldar perceive things at the much higher level than Humans do, and might be using their abilities to influence you to their advantage. A psyker should be able to resist said influence, and their higher level of perception should go some way in closing the difference between the level of perception. Negotiations for long-term coexistence are very different from negotiating a temporary alliance against a common foe on the battlefield.

Are you suggesting that Eldar are practicioners of regular mind-control? I don't think I have ever heard of such claims - if they would be true, they would probably use it much more often, and to greater effect.

Also, I do not believe that, for 40k, there is that much of a difference between long-term cooperation and temporary alliances. Such concerns might arise once the nations are actually at peace and able to focus their activities somewhere rather than just trying to survive. Given the state of the galaxy, however, even a simple non-aggression pact would go a very long way in providing some breathing room. We don't even have to delve into the realm of alliances against a common foe, although there is certainly no shortage of potential targets.

I'm willing to give Big E the benefit of the doubt here, though, and say that he probably thought he would not need the help of aliens. Because the Emperor is not actually that enlightened but a xenophobic bigot himself, whose dreams saw mankind rule the stars, with nobody alive to challenge the superiority of his species, or his rule.

 Lynata wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:Because Eldar perceive things at the much higher level than Humans do, and might be using their abilities to influence you to their advantage. A psyker should be able to resist said influence, and their higher level of perception should go some way in closing the difference between the level of perception. Negotiations for long-term coexistence are very different from negotiating a temporary alliance against a common foe on the battlefield.

Are you suggesting that Eldar are practicioners of regular mind-control? I don't think I have ever heard of such claims - if they would be true, they would probably use it much more often, and to greater effect.

Maybe not, but they're certainly not above using 'lesser' races as pawns. And seeing as they view Humans as vermin, they probably couldn't care less about bending Human minds to their will if they wanted to.

I'm willing to give Big E the benefit of the doubt here, though, and say that he probably thought he would not need the help of aliens. Because the Emperor is not actually that enlightened but a xenophobic bigot himself, whose dreams saw mankind rule the stars, with nobody alive to challenge the superiority of his species, or his rule.

Of course he wouldn't. He's an immortal god-like psyker, and he's also Human. It is Human nature to look after yourself and your own ilk before others.

Well he is not really human. He was a mutant, oddly a bigoted xenophobic mutant with a god complex

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Well he is not really human. He was a mutant, oddly a bigoted xenophobic mutant with a god complex

Psykers are mutants, true, but they are special compared to other mutants, because they are the next stage of Human evolution. And the Emperor is the first and greatest of them all.

uh huh...most abhumans can be said to be the same thing. But its funny he was the very same filth he hated and the IoM he formed hates. And he was not the first psyker, he was not really even a psyker but something else.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
uh huh...most abhumans can be said to be the same thing. But its funny he was the very same filth he hated and the IoM he formed hates. And he was not the first psyker, he was not really even a psyker but something else.

Hmmm...he never actually hated psykers, he just considered the weaker members of his kind as too dangerous unless controlled. The stronger among them (such as Malcador, the Grey Knights, Librarians, and many Inquisitors) are after all among Mankind's greatest leaders and warriors. Abhumans haven't really evolved either, they simply adapted to their home environments but in a way can still be considered as partly Human enough to be tolerated.

Adaptation is what evolution is for the most part. That is simply splitting hairs. Also if I recall during the crusade the SM did not have psykers, there was no grey knights nor was there an Inquisition. Every thing and everybody was a tool to be used and then disguarded to him, nothing more.

Stuff like Psykers creeping in came about after his death or during desperation as he grabbed at anything to keep his house of cards from tumbling.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Adaptation is what evolution is for the most part. That is simply splitting hairs. Also if I recall during the crusade the SM did not have psykers, there was no grey knights nor was there an Inquisition. Every thing and everybody was a tool to be used and then disguarded to him, nothing more.

Stuff like Psykers creeping in came about after his death or during desperation as he grabbed at anything to keep his house of cards from tumbling.

His trusted adviser and the man he entrusted with actually running the empire, Malcador, was a powerful psyker. And prior to the Edicts of Nikaea, most legions had extensive librarian assets.

EDIT: Abhumans are genetic dead-ends, so they haven't truly evolved. Ogryns for instance never develop psychic abilities, and are abominably stupid.

Uh huh..so say the raciest xenophobes. while some are dead end not all are, nor will all "evole" to psykers. If that was the case in 10k years the humans race should be almost all psykers by this point, which is not the case.


I do not recall any Librarians of that era being psykers. Not till the word bearers went all dark side anyhow. I am pretty sure they did not use psykers in the ground forces at that time. They were astropaths or never seen again.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Uh huh..so say the raciest xenophobes. while some are dead end not all are, nor will all "evole" to psykers. If that was the case in 10k years the humans race should be almost all psykers by this point, which is not the case.

You know as well as I do that evolution normally takes millions of years to complete. Assuming the Emperor sought to safely accelerate this process, he never actually got around to it, being focused on completing the Imperial Webway and consolidating the Imperium starting with the Council of Terra.

I do not recall any Librarians of that era being psykers. Not till the word bearers went all dark side anyhow. I am pretty sure they did not use psykers in the ground forces at that time. They were astropaths or never seen again.

Librarians have always been psykers

If they weren't, why would the Edicts of Nikaea order all legions to disband their librarius departments? And why else would Guilliman lament said disbandment after the Battle of Calth, recognizing psykers as the most reliable defense against other psykers and warp entities?

I just do not recall a single time in the HH books I have read so far when they came up. The few I recall are never thought to be psykers, more like lore keepers. Most of the SM's seem un prepared for demons or warp critters and they do not call for psyker back up.

So no, I am not seeing psyker at all in the Sm of that Era, the ones we know of got sanctioned because of it. It was a no, no.

Edit: Yes I know the time evolution takes, but GW and 40k ignore it. abhumans evolved as they are stable. Psykers however are not as they do not always pass it on.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I just do not recall a single time in the HH books I have read so far when they came up. The few I recall are never thought to be psykers, more like lore keepers. Most of the SM's seem un prepared for demons or warp critters and they do not call for psyker back up.

So no, I am not seeing psyker at all in the Sm of that Era, the ones we know of got sanctioned because of it. It was a no, no.

I don't believe this...Librarians have always been psykers - THAT'S PART OF THE JOB DESCRIPTION!!!

There's no point in disbanding librarius departments if they weren't all psykers. Otherwise, the Emperor could simply have ordered all psykers out of the librarius departments. And they never called for psyker back-up against Daemons because as far as they were concerned, Daemons were just warp-based xenos. They never really encountered Daemons en masse until Calth (or knew them for what they truly were), so the Librarians would probably be deployed at the heaviest fighting as opposed to mopping up or specialist duties like they do post-Heresy.

the HH books seem to disagree with you man, Sm psykers were a hell no from the big E. It was why Mangus got slapped down as it was found out he and his legion were in fact using psyker powers.

As far as I can tell Sm psykers of any type came about after the heresy, not before.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
the HH books seem to disagree with you man, Sm psykers were a hell no from the big E. It was why Mangus got slapped down as it was found out he and his legion were in fact using psyker powers.

As far as I can tell Sm psykers of any type came about after the heresy, not before.

No, they were forbidden from being deployed after the Edicts of Nikaea were issued. Which was about the same time as the Horus Heresy broke out. In fact, Magnus received Imperial approval when the first Librarians were trained, and were extensively deployed by most legions for most of the Great Crusade. The Horus Heresy novels aren't the only source for this: this whole thing I just posted is drawn from the Horus Heresy Artbook series (assuming Lexicanum's citations are correct, which they usually are, as I don't have the Artbooks).

HH was my way into lore, with how badly GW is at contradicting stuff ya have to pick a base source. From what I can find they were not used until after. He trained the first group and got bitch slapped for doing so.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
HH was my way into lore, with how badly GW is at contradicting stuff ya have to pick a base source. From what I can find they were not used until after. He trained the first group and got bitch slapped for doing so.

No, he trained them with the Emperor's approval. And they fought well and loyally for most of the Great Crusade, but because of events outside Magnus' control, they were forcibly disbanded during the Edicts of Nikaea. However, they were definitely re-introduced before the Horus Heresy ended, as I recall reading (with cited source being Index Astartes IV - Siege of the Emperor's Palace) that Librarians were instrumental in countering Chaos Sorcerers during the Siege of Terra.

Dd some digging, It seems you are mostly correct. there were not many( outside the thousand suns) and they were disbanded before the HH. But seems after the HH they reinstated them.

So yes they were around but not active in the HH.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:


So yes they were around but not active in the HH.

They were active at the end though, since Index Astartes mentions them countering Chaos Sorcerers during the Siege of Terra.

what I am looking at says they were not. The Council on Nikaea ended them and not until after the HH, when they had proved to be uses, even though they were not supposed to use their powers, were they reinstated. The y were there, but officially the order had been disbanded. Still they had trained psykers for that, even if they were not supposed to use them.

That fits with the HH books which take place after the Council on Nikaea and have no librarians around. Ya know other then the word bears and the thousand sons which more or less ignored the council.

EDIT:Just to be clear. The two sources I am using are the Leicanum and the 40k: wiki. Both agree with what I said. They were disbanded after the council and reinstated sometime after the HH.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:


That fits with the HH books which take place after the Council on Nikaea and have no librarians around. Ya know other then the word bears and the thousand sons which more or less ignored the council.

You forgot the Space Wolves. They kept their Wolf Priests, because technically, they weren't Librarians.

I do not know what else to tell ya man, the sources say you are incorrect. I have used three, the HH books( first 6 or so), the wiki you yourself used and another wiki. All three agree that after the council all psykers were banned until some point after the HH.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I do not know what else to tell ya man, the sources say you are incorrect. I have used three, the HH books( first 6 or so), the wiki you yourself used and another wiki. All three agree that after the council all psykers were banned until some point after the HH.

The Wolf Priests/Rune Priests were active during the Burning of Prospero (check A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns). One of them, Wyrdmake, even dueled Ahzek Ahriman. Magnus and Russ really are related, seeing as they both defied the Edicts of Nikaea (although technically Wolf Priests/Rune Priests aren't really Librarians )

Fiat alone has kept the wolves from fallen as they honestly should have. They are more or less chaos given flesh. As I said GW contradicts themselves at every turn.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Fiat alone has kept the wolves from fallen as they honestly should have. They are more or less chaos given flesh. As I said GW contradicts themselves at every turn.

Faith? Pshaw...they have AWESOME!

Fiat not faith...also know an being a Mary sue.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Fiat not faith...also know an being a Mary sue.

Barbarian warriors are never Mary Sues.

Did you really just say the wolves are not Mary sues...really?

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Did you really just say the wolves are not Mary sues...really?

Yup, the Ultramarines and the Grey Knights are Mary Sues (still like them both though). Space Wolves are AWESOME.

No man they are running neck and neck with those other two in the race to see who can be the biggest Mary sue Dude they have wolves as horses now for the love of the Gods.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No man they are running neck and neck with those other two in the race to see who can be the biggest Mary sue Dude they have wolves as horses now for the love of the Gods.

Meh. They gave the finger to the Inquisition, the Ecclesiarchy, and the Adepta Sororitas. BADASS. And also, they are honorable and actually give a damn about ordinary Humans.

That is why the wolves are in the dictionary under the term :Mary sue

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
That is why the wolves are in the dictionary under the term :Mary sue

Yeah, as if Mary Sues defy proper authority, get drunk, have really bad taste in personal appearance (I concede they are basically Vikings in SPAAACE!!!).

Well yeah they are so vikings in space. Ok lycanthopic vikings in space.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Well yeah they are so vikings in space. Ok lycanthopic vikings in space.

Be thankful we don't have Twilight in SPAAACE!!! (shudders)

You shut up! GW might freaking hear you.!

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
You shut up! GW might freaking hear you.!

Oh come now. It's not like they have moles here in dakka...oh gak.

If they thought they could make money off it man......besides we have space elves( 3 types) do we really want sparkly space vampires?

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
If they thought they could make money off it man......besides we have space elves( 3 types) do we really want sparkly space vampires?

Space Elves are infinitely more tolerable than sparkling gay vampires. Heck, even anime fan space communists are better than sparkling gay vampires.

I think we are in agreement there. Not even the space ponies are as bad as those as VAMPIRES DO NOT SPARKLE DAMMIT!

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I think we are in agreement there. Not even the space ponies are as bad as those as VAMPIRES DO NOT SPARKLE DAMMIT!

Hahaha...that we do. Those freaks really ought to meet a real vampire, like say, Alucard with his Level 0 restriction released.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

As for ward and the fleet, nothing in the new codex says anything about the fleet.

Black Templars destroyed entire Necron fleet using one of their own Crusade fleets, there is even a citate that said "Black Templar ships destroyed any Necron ship that was to slow to escape". If Templar fleet did than imagine then what Imperial Navy could do to them.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

As for ward and the fleet, nothing in the new codex says anything about the fleet.

Black Templars destroyed entire Necron fleet using one of their own Crusade fleets, there is even a citate that said "Black Templar ships destroyed any Necron ship that was to slow to escape". If Templar fleet did than imagine then what Imperial Navy could do to them.

Insanity. I've seen the BFG stats for both Necron and Space Marine vessels, and even the latter cannot defeat the former without superior numbers. And slow? Necron ships make Eldar ships look like pedastrians.

Humm I may need to read that codex then as I do not recall that. Over all I like it but the "No FTL" does not make a damned bit of sense as they have all kinds of FTL methods and warp FTL seems to be the easiest thing to stumble upon even for races with no psykers.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Humm I may need to read that codex then as I do not recall that. Over all I like it but the "No FTL" does not make a damned bit of sense as they have all kinds of FTL methods and warp FTL seems to be the easiest thing to stumble upon even for races with no psykers.

They're not supposed to have warp drives. They use inertialess drives that make the Eldar look downright slow. Someone's messin' around, and I ain't happy 'bout it

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

As for ward and the fleet, nothing in the new codex says anything about the fleet.

Black Templars destroyed entire Necron fleet using one of their own Crusade fleets, there is even a citate that said "Black Templar ships destroyed any Necron ship that was to slow to escape". If Templar fleet did than imagine then what Imperial Navy could do to them.

Insanity. I've seen the BFG stats for both Necron and Space Marine vessels, and even the latter cannot defeat the former without superior numbers. And slow? Necron ships make Eldar ships look like pedastrians.

Yeah its another case of contradiction and fluff not matching facts. It seems they tried to remove the necrons FTL ships, which just boggles the mind as they have other methods of FTL, know about the war, can break into the webway, teleport across the galaxy in an instant..yet can't uncover something even the youngest races master in some forum? They did not think that though at all.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

As for ward and the fleet, nothing in the new codex says anything about the fleet.

Black Templars destroyed entire Necron fleet using one of their own Crusade fleets, there is even a citate that said "Black Templar ships destroyed any Necron ship that was to slow to escape". If Templar fleet did than imagine then what Imperial Navy could do to them.

Insanity. I've seen the BFG stats for both Necron and Space Marine vessels, and even the latter cannot defeat the former without superior numbers. And slow? Necron ships make Eldar ships look like pedastrians.

Yeah its another case of contradiction and fluff not matching facts. It seems they tried to remove the necrons FTL ships, which just boggles the mind as they have other methods of FTL, know about the war, can break into the webway, teleport across the galaxy in an instant..yet can't uncover something even the youngest races master in some forum? They did not think that though at all.

As I recall, the oldcrons are supposed to know about warp technology, but cannot use it because they lost their souls and the warp is anathema to their C'tan masters. The Ultramarines and the Grey Knights aside, Ward and his newcrons are beginning to irritate me.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
If they thought they could make money off it man......besides we have space elves( 3 types) do we really want sparkly space vampires?

Space Elves are infinitely more tolerable than sparkling gay vampires. Heck, even anime fan space communists are better than sparkling gay vampires.

++++++++ I'm not aaaaalooooone on this forum....huzaaa

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
If they thought they could make money off it man......besides we have space elves( 3 types) do we really want sparkly space vampires?

Space Elves are infinitely more tolerable than sparkling gay vampires. Heck, even anime fan space communists are better than sparkling gay vampires.

++++++++ I'm not aaaaalooooone on this forum....huzaaa

At the risk of being declared a hater and a fanboy, I will personally declare anyone who says "Twilight in SPAAACE!!!" a good idea EXTREMIS DIABOLUS. Bring it.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


As I recall, the oldcrons are supposed to know about warp technology, but cannot use it because they lost their souls and the warp is anathema to their C'tan masters. The Ultramarines and the Grey Knights aside, Ward and his newcrons are beginning to irritate me.

while I myself really like what he did with them, there is the rub, The warp is no more anathema to them then to the tau, they were around millions of years and more or less had most of their tech before the C'tan showed up. Including the teleport and stargate systems. They are levels above any other race in tech, they knew about the warp, they have and always had the power to build per navigator style human warp ships. hell the jarko have non warp FTL and the Necrons are leaps and bounds above them.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


As I recall, the oldcrons are supposed to know about warp technology, but cannot use it because they lost their souls and the warp is anathema to their C'tan masters. The Ultramarines and the Grey Knights aside, Ward and his newcrons are beginning to irritate me.

while I myself really like what he did with them, there is the rub, The warp is no more anathema to them then to the tau, they were around millions of years and more or less had most of their tech before the C'tan showed up. Including the teleport and stargate systems. They are levels above any other race in tech, they knew about the warp, they have and always had the power to build per navigator style human warp ships. hell the jarko have non warp FTL and the Necrons are leaps and bounds above them.

I was talking about the oldcrons...the newcrons to me are ok I guess (apart from the idiotic retcon of their NASTY fleet). But who are the jarko?

I may have misspelled it, the orange monkey men who make digi weapons. The recon of the fleet just makes zero sense at all.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I may have misspelled it, the orange monkey men who make digi weapons. The recon of the fleet just makes zero sense at all.

Jokaero. You got the fleet part not making sense right.

Lynata wrote: That it does not is, or so I would assume, largely a result of the Imperium's xenophobia.

It's also well established that the Eldar are not very good allies. For example, in the aforementioned Winter Assault, if the Eldar win, then they cause the Imperial Titan to explode... and don't tell the Imperials. They just fly away and leave the General next to his time bomb without mentioning it. Not exactly the kind of behavior that's going to make them Imperium trust them, even if the Imperium wasn't totally xenophobic.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Well yeah they are so vikings in space. Ok lycanthopic vikings in space.

Be thankful we don't have Twilight in SPAAACE!!! (shudders)

GWs policy with romance is basically "girls are icky", I wouldn't fear this too much.

 Lynata wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:In a way yes. AFAIK, the title 'Adeptus Mechanicus' was never adopted until after the Horus Heresy. Before, they were simply the Mechanicum. And while they had the same religious doctrines and dogma, unlike their post-Heresy incarnation the Mechanicum was actually re-discovering and developing technologies at a rate unseen since the Golden Age of Technology ended. They also understood what they were building, and didn't forget anything. Probably because the Emperor encouraged innovation, daring, and creativity so long as the commandment against AI technology was followed.

Throughout the millennia, the Mechanicum did not change at all. They received a new prefix, a seat on the Council of High Lords, and new trade contacts. Other than that? The fact that the Mechanicus' Forge Worlds were allowed to remain sovereign satellite states ultimately means that neither the Emperor nor the High Lords had anything to do with the ongoing devolution. Tech-mysticism was already fairly ingrained into the Mechanicus back then - and worse yet, as it was incorporated into the wider Imperium it actually spread to other worlds. The High Lords of today encourage innovation and daring just as much as the Emperor did back then. If you want to blame anyone, look no further than the Fabricator-General and his little cult.

Strongly disagree here. On many occasions, the Mechanicus of the 30K millenium is shown to be developing new technologies and improving on old ones (see noospheric technology for example, or multiple marks of Power Armor in a relatively short period vs. almost zero progress in the subsequent 10,000 years except the mild up-armoring for MkVIII). The Heresy and the civil war on Mars was as destructive to technological progress as Old Night, reducing countless repositories of knowledge to ashes. In the few short centuries since Unity, the pact between Terra and Mars, and the beginnings of the Great Crusade, the Mechanicus finally began to sift through the remnants of the Age of Strife and to take its tentative first steps forward... all to have it all obliterated from within.

 Omegus wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:In a way yes. AFAIK, the title 'Adeptus Mechanicus' was never adopted until after the Horus Heresy. Before, they were simply the Mechanicum. And while they had the same religious doctrines and dogma, unlike their post-Heresy incarnation the Mechanicum was actually re-discovering and developing technologies at a rate unseen since the Golden Age of Technology ended. They also understood what they were building, and didn't forget anything. Probably because the Emperor encouraged innovation, daring, and creativity so long as the commandment against AI technology was followed.

Throughout the millennia, the Mechanicum did not change at all. They received a new prefix, a seat on the Council of High Lords, and new trade contacts. Other than that? The fact that the Mechanicus' Forge Worlds were allowed to remain sovereign satellite states ultimately means that neither the Emperor nor the High Lords had anything to do with the ongoing devolution. Tech-mysticism was already fairly ingrained into the Mechanicus back then - and worse yet, as it was incorporated into the wider Imperium it actually spread to other worlds. The High Lords of today encourage innovation and daring just as much as the Emperor did back then. If you want to blame anyone, look no further than the Fabricator-General and his little cult.

Strongly disagree here. On many occasions, the Mechanicus of the 30K millenium is shown to be developing new technologies and improving on old ones (see noospheric technology for example, or multiple marks of Power Armor in a relatively short period vs. almost zero progress in the subsequent 10,000 years except the mild up-armoring for MkVIII). The Heresy and the civil war on Mars was as destructive to technological progress as Old Night, reducing countless repositories of knowledge to ashes. In the few short centuries since Unity, the pact between Terra and Mars, and the beginnings of the Great Crusade, the Mechanicus finally began to sift through the remnants of the Age of Strife and to take its tentative first steps forward... all to have it all obliterated from within.

My thoughts exactly.