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There is really no 40k faction that could withstand the 30k IoM. Imagine the current IoM with more then double the armies, fleets and unity without having to face the other 1/2 of the empire. It is rediculous that any single faction would stand a chance.

Even dropping the 30k IoM in place of the 40k IoM would see all other factions reduced to near nothingless.

Ork = the 30K IoM defeated ork armies that makes Armageddon look like a scrimish.

Eldar = 30k IoM destroyed Craft Wolrds and successfully faught off Dark Eldar. The webway project would have seen the Eldar doomed.

Tau = lol

Chaos = All of chaos feared the IoM and what is was doing so much that they had to trick 1/2 of the empire to rebell. What's left would stand little chance of surviving the old empire's wrath in its current state.

Necrons = Have not awoken "Clean" enough to represent a true threat to old empire.

Renegades = The old empire has armies that were known to be able to end rebellions just by showing up.

You left out the Nids, also I would disagree on both the orks and the Necrons. The Legions did take out one ork Waagh, but it nearly broken them to do so and it was not even the largest waaagh the IoM has ever seen. As for the Necrons a single dynasty could hurt the IoM badly, tow or three at once would be a large issue. All the IoM would have vs the Necrons would be for a small time numbers alone and those only matter if ya can bring them to bear. Which means getting though Necron fleets and orbital defenses.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
You left out the Nids, also I would disagree on both the orks and the Necrons. The Legions did take out one ork Waagh, but it nearly broken them to do so and it was not even the largest waaagh the IoM has ever seen. As for the Necrons a single dynasty could hurt the IoM badly, tow or three at once would be a large issue. All the IoM would have vs the Necrons would be for a small time numbers alone and those only matter if ya can bring them to bear. Which means getting though Necron fleets and orbital defenses.

I did feel like I was leaving someone out but couldn't think of it.

Tyranids = The current IoM had been able to stop the Tyranids with its much more limited resources. Which the old empire could bring more then double the resources would have put them down in a much more meaningfull way.

The awoken Necrons as a race could stand up to the Old Empire but how they are represented in 40k simply do not have the resources to resist an IoM that could truely, truely focus on them. One Tomb World at a time.

The Ullanor campain broke the back of the largest Ork empire and scattered the race. They only exist in 40k because the IoM was unable to keep the preasure on them.

No, the IoM has stopped scouting missions at great lose. They have to kill worlds, which in the logn run is not a good way to "win".

One tomb world at a time does what you really do not want to do..make a new threat to unify them. I do not think you understand the amount of loses you would suffer on an all out assault on a tomb world. Not even the old legions could suffer such loses and remain in fighting trim.

No the Ullanor campain did not "Brake the race" it broke a single waagh. Nothing more man. You can not brake the orks as a race. They are not like humans, eldar or most other races, the Ullanor campaign sent up a signal for all time yelling "Good fight be here!"...look up the beast some time.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
With the Legiones Astartes, the Emperor and his Primarchs, the Imperial Truth and so many things the post-Heresy Imperium so foolishly discarded (though not without reason, but still foolishly IMO), which factions in the 41st Millennium could stand against the Great Crusade-era Imperium?

Note: Naturally this disregards the post-Heresy Imperium and the Traitor Legions, since they're both grew from the ruins of that young and vigorous empire.

Answer: none.
On Tyranids: a Chapter of 1.000 Astartes was enough to bring an entire fleet down ( true, they have suffered great casualties. but results speak for themselves ), what do you think a Legion of several million Astartes would do to them ( in 10.000 years the Legion could grow to this number )?


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 Hunterindarkness wrote:
You left out the Nids, also I would disagree on both the orks and the Necrons. The Legions did take out one ork Waagh, but it nearly broken them to do so and it was not even the largest waaagh the IoM has ever seen.

The biggest WARGHHH in Imperium history was broken in several minutes after Emperor showed up with 1.000 Custodes.

As for the Necrons a single dynasty could hurt the IoM badly, tow or three at once would be a large issue. All the IoM would have vs the Necrons would be for a small time numbers alone and those only matter if ya can bring them to bear. Which means getting though Necron fleets and orbital defenses.

Necrons can still lose badly if overwhelmed, and against Astartes Legion they would eventually fall - no matter how strong. And Ward made Necron fleet much weaker than it was in Battlefleet Gothic.

The only thing that can defeat 30k IoM is Celestial Orrery.

If I recall that battle was not minutes but hours or days. And only stopped after Horus and the Big E double teamed the lead ork. Not that the orks minded, was a good fight.


As for ward and the fleet, nothing in the new codex says anything about the fleet. The one thing it does say does not fit the history or tech level. Really you can not be a few million years old, colonized the whole of the galaxy and have what seems to be 5 or 6 types of FTL and not have FTL ships.

 Lynata wrote:

Why would you need to be a psyker to simply talk with people and strike a deal? I would say it happens often enough in various stories, though due to my limited proficiency in BL novels I can only think of DoW Winter Assault as an example for a successful collaboration. The IG General and Farseer Taldeer basically agreed to combine their forces against the greater threat - and what works there could easily work on a grander scale as well. That it does not is, or so I would assume, largely a result of the Imperium's xenophobia.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Because Eldar perceive things at the much higher level than Humans do, and might be using their abilities to influence you to their advantage. A psyker should be able to resist said influence, and their higher level of perception should go some way in closing the difference between the level of perception. Negotiations for long-term coexistence are very different from negotiating a temporary alliance against a common foe on the battlefield.

Are you suggesting that Eldar are practicioners of regular mind-control? I don't think I have ever heard of such claims - if they would be true, they would probably use it much more often, and to greater effect.

Also, I do not believe that, for 40k, there is that much of a difference between long-term cooperation and temporary alliances. Such concerns might arise once the nations are actually at peace and able to focus their activities somewhere rather than just trying to survive. Given the state of the galaxy, however, even a simple non-aggression pact would go a very long way in providing some breathing room. We don't even have to delve into the realm of alliances against a common foe, although there is certainly no shortage of potential targets.

I'm willing to give Big E the benefit of the doubt here, though, and say that he probably thought he would not need the help of aliens. Because the Emperor is not actually that enlightened but a xenophobic bigot himself, whose dreams saw mankind rule the stars, with nobody alive to challenge the superiority of his species, or his rule.

 Lynata wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:Because Eldar perceive things at the much higher level than Humans do, and might be using their abilities to influence you to their advantage. A psyker should be able to resist said influence, and their higher level of perception should go some way in closing the difference between the level of perception. Negotiations for long-term coexistence are very different from negotiating a temporary alliance against a common foe on the battlefield.

Are you suggesting that Eldar are practicioners of regular mind-control? I don't think I have ever heard of such claims - if they would be true, they would probably use it much more often, and to greater effect.

Maybe not, but they're certainly not above using 'lesser' races as pawns. And seeing as they view Humans as vermin, they probably couldn't care less about bending Human minds to their will if they wanted to.

I'm willing to give Big E the benefit of the doubt here, though, and say that he probably thought he would not need the help of aliens. Because the Emperor is not actually that enlightened but a xenophobic bigot himself, whose dreams saw mankind rule the stars, with nobody alive to challenge the superiority of his species, or his rule.

Of course he wouldn't. He's an immortal god-like psyker, and he's also Human. It is Human nature to look after yourself and your own ilk before others.

Well he is not really human. He was a mutant, oddly a bigoted xenophobic mutant with a god complex

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Well he is not really human. He was a mutant, oddly a bigoted xenophobic mutant with a god complex

Psykers are mutants, true, but they are special compared to other mutants, because they are the next stage of Human evolution. And the Emperor is the first and greatest of them all.

uh huh...most abhumans can be said to be the same thing. But its funny he was the very same filth he hated and the IoM he formed hates. And he was not the first psyker, he was not really even a psyker but something else.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
uh huh...most abhumans can be said to be the same thing. But its funny he was the very same filth he hated and the IoM he formed hates. And he was not the first psyker, he was not really even a psyker but something else.

Hmmm...he never actually hated psykers, he just considered the weaker members of his kind as too dangerous unless controlled. The stronger among them (such as Malcador, the Grey Knights, Librarians, and many Inquisitors) are after all among Mankind's greatest leaders and warriors. Abhumans haven't really evolved either, they simply adapted to their home environments but in a way can still be considered as partly Human enough to be tolerated.

Adaptation is what evolution is for the most part. That is simply splitting hairs. Also if I recall during the crusade the SM did not have psykers, there was no grey knights nor was there an Inquisition. Every thing and everybody was a tool to be used and then disguarded to him, nothing more.

Stuff like Psykers creeping in came about after his death or during desperation as he grabbed at anything to keep his house of cards from tumbling.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Adaptation is what evolution is for the most part. That is simply splitting hairs. Also if I recall during the crusade the SM did not have psykers, there was no grey knights nor was there an Inquisition. Every thing and everybody was a tool to be used and then disguarded to him, nothing more.

Stuff like Psykers creeping in came about after his death or during desperation as he grabbed at anything to keep his house of cards from tumbling.

His trusted adviser and the man he entrusted with actually running the empire, Malcador, was a powerful psyker. And prior to the Edicts of Nikaea, most legions had extensive librarian assets.

EDIT: Abhumans are genetic dead-ends, so they haven't truly evolved. Ogryns for instance never develop psychic abilities, and are abominably stupid.

Uh huh..so say the raciest xenophobes. while some are dead end not all are, nor will all "evole" to psykers. If that was the case in 10k years the humans race should be almost all psykers by this point, which is not the case.


I do not recall any Librarians of that era being psykers. Not till the word bearers went all dark side anyhow. I am pretty sure they did not use psykers in the ground forces at that time. They were astropaths or never seen again.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Uh huh..so say the raciest xenophobes. while some are dead end not all are, nor will all "evole" to psykers. If that was the case in 10k years the humans race should be almost all psykers by this point, which is not the case.

You know as well as I do that evolution normally takes millions of years to complete. Assuming the Emperor sought to safely accelerate this process, he never actually got around to it, being focused on completing the Imperial Webway and consolidating the Imperium starting with the Council of Terra.

I do not recall any Librarians of that era being psykers. Not till the word bearers went all dark side anyhow. I am pretty sure they did not use psykers in the ground forces at that time. They were astropaths or never seen again.

Librarians have always been psykers

If they weren't, why would the Edicts of Nikaea order all legions to disband their librarius departments? And why else would Guilliman lament said disbandment after the Battle of Calth, recognizing psykers as the most reliable defense against other psykers and warp entities?

I just do not recall a single time in the HH books I have read so far when they came up. The few I recall are never thought to be psykers, more like lore keepers. Most of the SM's seem un prepared for demons or warp critters and they do not call for psyker back up.

So no, I am not seeing psyker at all in the Sm of that Era, the ones we know of got sanctioned because of it. It was a no, no.

Edit: Yes I know the time evolution takes, but GW and 40k ignore it. abhumans evolved as they are stable. Psykers however are not as they do not always pass it on.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I just do not recall a single time in the HH books I have read so far when they came up. The few I recall are never thought to be psykers, more like lore keepers. Most of the SM's seem un prepared for demons or warp critters and they do not call for psyker back up.

So no, I am not seeing psyker at all in the Sm of that Era, the ones we know of got sanctioned because of it. It was a no, no.

I don't believe this...Librarians have always been psykers - THAT'S PART OF THE JOB DESCRIPTION!!!

There's no point in disbanding librarius departments if they weren't all psykers. Otherwise, the Emperor could simply have ordered all psykers out of the librarius departments. And they never called for psyker back-up against Daemons because as far as they were concerned, Daemons were just warp-based xenos. They never really encountered Daemons en masse until Calth (or knew them for what they truly were), so the Librarians would probably be deployed at the heaviest fighting as opposed to mopping up or specialist duties like they do post-Heresy.

the HH books seem to disagree with you man, Sm psykers were a hell no from the big E. It was why Mangus got slapped down as it was found out he and his legion were in fact using psyker powers.

As far as I can tell Sm psykers of any type came about after the heresy, not before.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
the HH books seem to disagree with you man, Sm psykers were a hell no from the big E. It was why Mangus got slapped down as it was found out he and his legion were in fact using psyker powers.

As far as I can tell Sm psykers of any type came about after the heresy, not before.

No, they were forbidden from being deployed after the Edicts of Nikaea were issued. Which was about the same time as the Horus Heresy broke out. In fact, Magnus received Imperial approval when the first Librarians were trained, and were extensively deployed by most legions for most of the Great Crusade. The Horus Heresy novels aren't the only source for this: this whole thing I just posted is drawn from the Horus Heresy Artbook series (assuming Lexicanum's citations are correct, which they usually are, as I don't have the Artbooks).

HH was my way into lore, with how badly GW is at contradicting stuff ya have to pick a base source. From what I can find they were not used until after. He trained the first group and got bitch slapped for doing so.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
HH was my way into lore, with how badly GW is at contradicting stuff ya have to pick a base source. From what I can find they were not used until after. He trained the first group and got bitch slapped for doing so.

No, he trained them with the Emperor's approval. And they fought well and loyally for most of the Great Crusade, but because of events outside Magnus' control, they were forcibly disbanded during the Edicts of Nikaea. However, they were definitely re-introduced before the Horus Heresy ended, as I recall reading (with cited source being Index Astartes IV - Siege of the Emperor's Palace) that Librarians were instrumental in countering Chaos Sorcerers during the Siege of Terra.

Dd some digging, It seems you are mostly correct. there were not many( outside the thousand suns) and they were disbanded before the HH. But seems after the HH they reinstated them.

So yes they were around but not active in the HH.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:


So yes they were around but not active in the HH.

They were active at the end though, since Index Astartes mentions them countering Chaos Sorcerers during the Siege of Terra.

what I am looking at says they were not. The Council on Nikaea ended them and not until after the HH, when they had proved to be uses, even though they were not supposed to use their powers, were they reinstated. The y were there, but officially the order had been disbanded. Still they had trained psykers for that, even if they were not supposed to use them.

That fits with the HH books which take place after the Council on Nikaea and have no librarians around. Ya know other then the word bears and the thousand sons which more or less ignored the council.

EDIT:Just to be clear. The two sources I am using are the Leicanum and the 40k: wiki. Both agree with what I said. They were disbanded after the council and reinstated sometime after the HH.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:


That fits with the HH books which take place after the Council on Nikaea and have no librarians around. Ya know other then the word bears and the thousand sons which more or less ignored the council.

You forgot the Space Wolves. They kept their Wolf Priests, because technically, they weren't Librarians.

I do not know what else to tell ya man, the sources say you are incorrect. I have used three, the HH books( first 6 or so), the wiki you yourself used and another wiki. All three agree that after the council all psykers were banned until some point after the HH.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I do not know what else to tell ya man, the sources say you are incorrect. I have used three, the HH books( first 6 or so), the wiki you yourself used and another wiki. All three agree that after the council all psykers were banned until some point after the HH.

The Wolf Priests/Rune Priests were active during the Burning of Prospero (check A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns). One of them, Wyrdmake, even dueled Ahzek Ahriman. Magnus and Russ really are related, seeing as they both defied the Edicts of Nikaea (although technically Wolf Priests/Rune Priests aren't really Librarians )

Fiat alone has kept the wolves from fallen as they honestly should have. They are more or less chaos given flesh. As I said GW contradicts themselves at every turn.