In a short while there will be a tournament with a nice prize and some very weird rule, including Vendettas not being allowed, as is any unit with no official model you can buy on the GW website. The points limit will be 1500 pts. So how should I compensate for the sudden lack of AA and AT? The options I'm considering are:

AA
1-ADL w/Quad Gun. The most logical choice, but I'm not sure they're allowed, since the rules specifically state that only things in the official codex can be brought. I'll update this information ASAP.
2-LR Exterminators/Punishers. TL or a lot of mid-strength dakka.
3-HW teams w/BiD. Do they work against fliers? (Technically, a Flier is a type of vehicle, so it should, but the wording is weird in the BRB)
4-Valkyries w/LC and MRP. Last resort only, since I never magnetized my Vendettas and I'm loath to destroy them for a single tournament. There seemed to be no point with the Vendetta being so much better than the Valkyrie...

AT
1-More massed LCs in ISs.
2-Melta Stormtroopers, Airborne Assault.
3-Russes, Manticores, all the stuff I usually use to kill troops. Sub-optimal, but they're already in the list.
4-Scout Sentinels w/Lascannons. I hate them, and I'm listing them only because I have the models (WYSIWYG!)

Any ideas/recommendations?

PS: I have already posted a 1500 pt list for this tournament which can serve as a reference if needed:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/496221.page

The vendetta has a model...its just a valk with a diffirent gun.....and forgeworld has a vandetta model i believe.

ADL plus exterminators would be my pick for AA and general mischief.
Personally I would spam hellhound variants, but then I am contrary.

FW is not allowed, and since you can't make a Vendetta with the Valkyrie kit, that's not allowed either. It's the stupid rule that conversions aren't allowed. Check the army list for more detailed discussion.

Hedkrakka wrote:
FW is not allowed, and since you can't make a Vendetta with the Valkyrie kit, that's not allowed either. It's the stupid rule that conversions aren't allowed. Check the army list for more detailed discussion.

Just gonna point this out for you since you could probably use it to your advantage massively; make sure no Space Marine player is playing with combi-weapons, converted Sternguard, Razorbacks with anything other than Heavy Bolters or TLLCs, Storm Shield Librarians, Power Fist Sergeants or anything similar that doesn't have the options "straight out of the box".

Besides, you can build a Vendetta out of the Valkyrie kit; you just require 3 of the kits for each Vendetta, but it's all bits from the Valkyrie box. You get a Lascannon in each, after all. I doubt that the TO(s) are going to listen to that argument, but have it in mind.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Just gonna point this out for you since you could probably use it to your advantage massively; make sure no Space Marine player is playing with combi-weapons, converted Sternguard, Razorbacks with anything other than Heavy Bolters or TLLCs, Storm Shield Librarians, Power Fist Sergeants or anything similar that doesn't have the options "straight out of the box".

This. Tell the TO to stop running stupid tournaments and take your business elsewhere.

 Peregrine wrote:

Tell the TO to stop running stupid tournaments and take your business elsewhere.

Pretty much this. I paid for the legal GW model, I can use it just like the codex says, or I can just not pay to enter the tournament. Either way, the guard player wins.

 Peregrine wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Just gonna point this out for you since you could probably use it to your advantage massively; make sure no Space Marine player is playing with combi-weapons, converted Sternguard, Razorbacks with anything other than Heavy Bolters or TLLCs, Storm Shield Librarians, Power Fist Sergeants or anything similar that doesn't have the options "straight out of the box".

This. Tell the TO to stop running stupid tournaments and take your business elsewhere.

I would love to. Actually, I will. However, I live in a small town with a single LGS and not too many 40k players total, and if I don't have to drive to a tournament for a change and there is a good reward on top of it, I'd rather wait until after the tournament.

No vendettas allowed? That is ridiculous! I would skip that clown ran event.

No Vendettas?

I mean, sure TO's can run their tournaments however they want but come on. That's ridiculous.
So, the TO banned Vendetta's and not doing anything else to other armies? So he hamstrung the IG, since Air-Cav with Vendetta's is one of the last true competitive tournament lists.
Yep, skip it. The work just isn't worth the pay-off.

Now, if you must...alternatives...

For AA: Your best bet at this point is an ADL with Quad. If THATS banned (and if you just have to go, because I would be out at that point), then really AA will come down to trying with a Valk or just shooting a crap ton of Autocannons at it and hope for the best
For AT: Well, massed Lascannons works. But, I have heard good things about Meltatroopers. Or, if you can get it, Meltavets work. Not as good in Chimeras, but you can't take a Vendetta so....

Wait. No conversions allowed in general? That's BS! People don't realize exactly how much you have to convert from every army....anyone using Sternguard? Has to be the KIT Sturn, not converts. Combi-Weapons? Have to be the metal kits from GW. And a whole host of things I can't reasonably list. That's a really stupid rule....again, I would be long gone hahaha

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Hedkrakka wrote:
FW is not allowed, and since you can't make a Vendetta with the Valkyrie kit, that's not allowed either. It's the stupid rule that conversions aren't allowed. Check the army list for more detailed discussion.

Just gonna point this out for you since you could probably use it to your advantage massively; make sure no Space Marine player is playing with combi-weapons, converted Sternguard, Razorbacks with anything other than Heavy Bolters or TLLCs, Storm Shield Librarians, Power Fist Sergeants or anything similar that doesn't have the options "straight out of the box".

Besides, you can build a Vendetta out of the Valkyrie kit; you just require 3 of the kits for each Vendetta, but it's all bits from the Valkyrie box. You get a Lascannon in each, after all. I doubt that the TO(s) are going to listen to that argument, but have it in mind.

Except I've got sarg's with power fists, and a razorback with las/plas. They are just older GW models.

Since the only airforce to really worry about is the IG airforce, I'd just not worry about air defense. Focus on pounding your opponents ground units to dust and just take the hits from their flyers.

-Matt

No units without GW models?

Orks and DE are screwed...

Sounds like a pretty odd event, I'm assuming the guy also doesnt allow non gw models? Does he only carry GW stuff in his store? Is this a poor attempt at getting people to only play with stuff you can buy in the store?

If at all possible purchase a necron army for the event. Many of the Necron kits are the GW site are specifically labeled as one of two possible units, and as a whole the necron codex has very few units that need converting (as options are almost non-existent).

A necron air-force sounds like it would dominate, and you could paint 5 night scythes and 25 warriors without too much effort.

Try walrus's argument and see if he buys it-if not, and you may become unpopular if you do this (warning), I agree with the people who suggest to troll everyone and make sure none of their stuff without options from the GW kit is allowed either

Look if the guy is outlawing vendettas, just tell him to outlaw all fliers or get lost. Obviously this store is not worth your time.

Thanks for the opinions, everybody, but I see very few suggestions on what I should bring. I agree with each and every one of you who points out that the rules are outrageous, but ultimately the reason I brought this up is to get ideas on what to bring. In any case, the warnings are also appreciated.

Washout77, it's not only Vendettas that are banned (any FW model, converted model or anything that cannot be built from GW kits are), but that's what hits IG the hardest, one of the staple, auto-bring, great AA/AT units being gone. Trust me, I wouldn't be going there if the prize wasn't worth it and the entry fee wasn't low.

Dr. What, there aren't many Ork players around here but that's exactly what I fear, along with Necrons. A double Weirdboy, maxed Dakkajet list could blow all the Guardsmen to hell and back.

Iconicsilence, I believe that's exactly what he's trying to do, having taken over the LGS recently. More sales.

Corollax, nice suggestion, but even if I could buy the models, I doubt I can paint up a Necron army in three days.

Thanks to HawaiiMatt, Washout77 and Exhumed for the suggestions. I'll ask about the ADL first thing in the morning, and update the information ASAP.

Yeah... this makes no sense whatsoever. He's outlawing legal codex units simply based on the fact you need a few extra bits to make their models from an existing GW model? What? That's the most arbitrary rule I've ever heard, he might as well ban all models with orange paint, or all players with glasses.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Yeah... this makes no sense whatsoever. He's outlawing legal codex units simply based on the fact you need a few extra bits to make their models from an existing GW model? What? That's the most arbitrary rule I've ever heard, he might as well ban all models with orange paint, or all players with glasses.

That really made me laugh. Thanks!

Good thing I'll be moving elsewhere soon, the LGS will quickly become unbearable.

What a fethhole of a store owner!

Don't worry, that store won't be around long with idiocy like that.

Why not just take Valks then?

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
What a fuckhole of a store owner!

Don't worry, that store won't be around long with idiocy like that.

Why not just take Valks then?

Simply, my Vendettas aren't magnetized because I never believed I'd ever bring Valks when the Vendetta is available for the same cost. I don't want to break stuff off for just one tournament.

Magnetization isn't just about switching out weapon options. It's also handy for visually presenting weapon destroyed results.

I certainly understand your pain, though.

Hedkrakka wrote:
Iconicsilence, I believe that's exactly what he's trying to do, having taken over the LGS recently. More sales.

Well, that or the TO and/or his friends have figured out a dominating list that works under these rules and are hoping to get people to throw away money on the tournament and give them easy prizes. And I would not be at all surprised to see the "no conversions" rule being selectively enforced in favor of the TO's friends.

Anyway, just skip it. You're probably playing a rigged game, and even if you aren't you should never support stupidity like that. Not going back to the store doesn't help anything since they've already got your money. Tell the TO you won't be there, you won't ever be buying anything from them, and you'll encourage everyone you know to do the same.

 Peregrine wrote:

Hedkrakka wrote:
Iconicsilence, I believe that's exactly what he's trying to do, having taken over the LGS recently. More sales.

Well, that or the TO and/or his friends have figured out a dominating list that works under these rules and are hoping to get people to throw away money on the tournament and give them easy prizes. And I would not be at all surprised to see the "no conversions" rule being selectively enforced in favor of the TO's friends.

Anyway, just skip it. You're probably playing a rigged game, and even if you aren't you should never support stupidity like that. Not going back to the store doesn't help anything since they've already got your money. Tell the TO you won't be there, you won't ever be buying anything from them, and you'll encourage everyone you know to do the same.

That's quite possible, but as far as I know, the guy just arrived here... I don't imagine he has any friends yet, and he plays Orks, the snap fire-happiest army in 40k-You do have a point though. I'll look into it, and if there is such an arrangement, I'm sure my connections are good enough to find out about it. If so, then it's "to hell with the entry fee".

Still, for the possibility that there is no setup and he's just trying to improve sales in a ridiculously stupid way, I need suggestions on what to bring instead.

While I agree with Peregrine's sentiment, I think that may be a little extreme. Certainly take a pass on this tourney, but I don't see this as a reason to burn your bridges of being able to go play pick-up games there, especially if it's the only LGS around. Maybe try, after this one happens, to get a lot of support for dropping that rule at the next tourney, or getting some different people in charge of running it?

My LGS essentially banned me from playing there for having unpainted models, so I know how rough it is to have no place to game. Wouldn't want you to have to go through that over one tourney!

Only your contempt?

Wow, just wow. I don't think that I'd play in an event like this. I would let the TO know honestly what I think about their restrictions. Modeling and converting aspects of the hobby aside, some options simply do not exists at all in the GW range. I really want to know how they are going to enforce this prior to and during the event itself. I wouldn't want to piss off the other players in this event, but I'd find the troll-y-est, GW model only list to make and bring it. Is this TO seriously going to inspect each and every players models to ensure compliance? If I were to try to play within this TO's restrictions, I'd probably take Sisters of Battle. But as IG, I'd go with Russes and a mix of Melta Vets in Chimeras and Platoons on foot. But depending on your IG range you may not even be able to do that. My Steel Legion models certainly don't have any Meltagun models that haven't been converted. Stupid, stupid TO's rules... I would seriously ask what bug up their ass that the TO has to set these restrictions.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
While I agree with Peregrine's sentiment, I think that may be a little extreme. Certainly take a pass on this tourney, but I don't see this as a reason to burn your bridges of being able to go play pick-up games there, especially if it's the only LGS around. Maybe try, after this one happens, to get a lot of support for dropping that rule at the next tourney, or getting some different people in charge of running it?

My LGS essentially banned me from playing there for having unpainted models, so I know how rough it is to have no place to game. Wouldn't want you to have to go through that over one tourney!

Well, I'm moving away from this town soon anyway, and I'm old enough to be patient, so I'm not that much concerned about having no place to game. If worse comes to worst, I can just put the dining table and the study table side by side, break out my own ancient terrain pieces and play at home with friends.

And BTW, if there was a setup, I would never even acknowledge that guy's presence again. Stupid rules are tolerable, deceit isn't. That's the way I see it anyway.

So.

Let's be clear, here, to help. You need to be able to handle the Air Force of Orks, Necrons, Dark Eldar, and any SM variant (Stormravens, Stormtalons). You are taking an IG army.

If you know your local tournament 'meta' to be flyer heavy, then you should consider going "Renegade", and putting some Chaos into your army list. An ADL with a lascannon and some Chaos havoks with Flakk Missiles is about your best, most cost-effective defense. Maybe throw in a Heldrake.

If you're locking yourself into a purist army, then I would suggest spamming whatever Leman Russ variant is good against flyers, maybe some Hydras as backup, plus the ADL/Lascannon.

Remember, in either case, two things:

1) Flyers can't contest/claim objectives. Kill their scoring units, ignore their non-transport flyers.
2) Put a BS4 squad on the ADL for maximum effectiveness.

Finally, I would like to second the advice of a previous poster. If you see *ANY* conversions that are not possible 'out of the box' (and the poster listed a TON of them), you get a refund of your entry fee, and walk away.

Good luck.

--Brian

 Briancj wrote:
So.

Let's be clear, here, to help. You need to be able to handle the Air Force of Orks, Necrons, Dark Eldar, and any SM variant (Stormravens, Stormtalons). You are taking an IG army.

If you know your local tournament 'meta' to be flyer heavy, then you should consider going "Renegade", and putting some Chaos into your army list. An ADL with a lascannon and some Chaos havoks with Flakk Missiles is about your best, most cost-effective defense. Maybe throw in a Heldrake.

If you're locking yourself into a purist army, then I would suggest spamming whatever Leman Russ variant is good against flyers, maybe some Hydras as backup, plus the ADL/Lascannon.

Remember, in either case, two things:

1) Flyers can't contest/claim objectives.
2) Put a BS4 squad on the ADL for maximum effectiveness.

Finally, I would like to second the advice of a previous poster. If you see *ANY* conversions that is not possible 'out of the box' (and the poster listed a TON of them), you get a refund of your entry fee, and walk away.

Good luck.

--Brian

I'm not quite locking myself into a purist army, the TO is. Allies aren't allowed either. I'd dish out my Emperor's Children, but I'll stick to IG this time.
Hydras are either FW or conversions, so no Hydras for me. I'll try Exterminators, I guess.
Don't worry about DE, I'm the only DE player in the area. SM players don't tend to bring Fliers a lot, but Orks and Necrons are a problem.

 Briancj wrote:
So.

If you're locking yourself into a purist army, then I would suggest spamming whatever Leman Russ variant is good against flyers, maybe some Hydras as backup, plus the ADL/Lascannon.

The Hydra is a FW model. He wouldn't be able to play it.

I'd take the ADL and put a squad of vets in it, GW makes an ADL model so I assume he wont ban that as well. As for your army I'd suggest going more towards a static gun line list.

General question...is there a fee to play in this event? And is the TO also going to play in the event?

While I do love conversions, and would dislike being told there is no conversions allowed in an event I want to go to, this event is not being run by games workshop. Each and every tourney uses some level of house rule, as there are no rule book rules for running an event.

My guess is that the organizer wants to avoid the issues of modeling for advantage since no such rule exists in the book. So one can either pre screen every model that will be coming to the event in advance so players don't get screwed by bringing a model they cant use and having nothing to substitute. Or, you can make a ruling that only stock models can be used, which worked for war machine, thus avoiding the issue of modeling for advantage entirely.

To be honest, neither option is superior for a store owner. Either you upset people with legitimate conversions or you upset your players playing against poorly proxied armies or armies modeled for advantage. Without knowing the stores clients no one can claim one option is better than the other.

To the op's question, I always liked scout sentinels for fast attack if not loading up on vendettas. Same slot, you can still outflank and multilasers do good damage to side armor on most things. That plus an aegis with your extra points to protect your troops in lieu of being in a vendetta, combined with the decent shooting of the quad gun and sentinels, means you should be fine.

DevianID wrote:
My guess is that the organizer wants to avoid the issues of modeling for advantage since no such rule exists in the book. So one can either pre screen every model that will be coming to the event in advance so players don't get screwed by bringing a model they cant use and having nothing to substitute. Or, you can make a ruling that only stock models can be used, which worked for war machine, thus avoiding the issue of modeling for advantage entirely.

The reason this works for Warmachine is because units don't have options, or if they do they are in the form of adding in another specific model. You don't have the option of equipping a sergeant with a dozen different weapons, so they don't have to worry about options being in the box or not. This doesn't work at all for 40k as it invalidates a huge number of legal options.

@#$*)$#*, I didn't even think about the Hydra issue. GAH.

And since you can't take allies, OMFG.

I, honestly, don't see a reason to even participate. But! If you're going to press forward (and have but a few days left)...it might help to get a rough accounting of what models/forces you have available in your IG army?

--Brian

So you need help with a IG army and there are a few ork and necron players in this tourney...

Two words: Basilisk. Squadrons.

You will be surprised on how much damage 3 pie plates do against hordes at Str9...

Also Manticores are great for anti-tank...

need to take out entrenched troops? Banewolfs... or if there are more Xeno players than marine players add in Hellhounds...

Hope this helps

Tournament Organizing for advantage is not cool. If you paid a premium to make a Vendetta, you should be able to use it.

There's a IG list that forces you to roll for about 30-60 min straight due toi the new template / scatter rules or something...ask Peregrine about it, he's an IG and hardcore WAAC player, he can give you more details on it.

Just troll the living hell out of them! While on the one hand, as a player, I can't be sad about banning the most overpowered unit in the entire game, on the other hand, banning all "non GW" models is downright stupid...converting models is a solid part of the game. Seems more like he's trying to force new stuff down yer throat.

Take he most trollrific but legal list possible make his life a living heel.

Take 9 valkyries, and as many vets/sWS's with demoliton charges as humanly possible (and GW DOES make guys with demo charges)

Make him regret the day he thought he could screw you over

Hrm... no Vendettas, no allies, possibly no ADLs...?

This sounds like the TO demands that a Necron Air Force win the tourney. I'd let the TO know that you have no interest in playing a rigged game, and advise him that you will spend your money elsewhere. Even if it's the only game in town, it's not worth subjecting yourself to abusive rules. I doubt that you're the only one with this problem, and if you merely curb your tolerance for BS like this, the TO will very quickly learn that bad ideas are not good for business.

So....wait...no fortifications....no Hydras (FW model)....no Vendettas....so you have absolutely no anti-air outside just spamming autocannons and hoping for the best?

Well.

Thats....*sigh* Anyway, I would REALLY tell the TO that he is making the game rigged and you have no interest in spending money there to play a rigged game where you have no chance of winning if anyone brings a flier list (which, people will). Trust me, once he starts losing customers he will change ways but if you keep giving him money he won't change a thing.

But alas, you are playing in the tourny. Since there is pretty much no competitive TAC builds left after the rules, you are basically gonna have to go without and hope that you get lucky with your rolls. Once the tourny happens, you will have to fill us in on how it went. Im sure we are all curious as to who wins...

I'd like to take this opportunity to point out how effective Annihilation Barges are in dealing with fliers. Twin-linked Tesla has a way of rolling 6's and making those 6's count.

...could he be any more obvious about creating a Necron-biased tournament, or am I overreacting?

 Sigvatr wrote:
There's a IG list that forces you to roll for about 30-60 min straight due toi the new template / scatter rules or something...ask Peregrine about it, he's an IG and hardcore WAAC player, he can give you more details on it.

Sadly it uses FW units, so it wouldn't work here. But yes, it would be funny to bring a list with three batteries of 12-shot barrage weapons, plus heavy support slots full of squadrons of three Manticore platforms. It would probably lose a fair game, but if your opponent ragequits it's a win...

My guess is that the organizer wants to avoid the issues of modeling for advantage since no such rule exists in the book. So one can either pre screen every model that will be coming to the event in advance so players don't get screwed by bringing a model they cant use and having nothing to substitute. Or, you can make a ruling that only stock models can be used, which worked for war machine, thus avoiding the issue of modeling for advantage entirely.

Except this also includes things like "swapping the sergeant's laspistol for a plasma pistol", something that could never have any meaningful effect on LOS/movement distances/etc. The rule is just WAY too broad, to the point that the only reasons I can think of are "get people to buy more stuff from me because I made their armies illegal" or "my buddy's Necron flyerspam will get an automatic win".

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Hedkrakka wrote:
FW is not allowed, and since you can't make a Vendetta with the Valkyrie kit, that's not allowed either. It's the stupid rule that conversions aren't allowed. Check the army list for more detailed discussion.

Just gonna point this out for you since you could probably use it to your advantage massively; make sure no Space Marine player is playing with combi-weapons, converted Sternguard, Razorbacks with anything other than Heavy Bolters or TLLCs, Storm Shield Librarians, Power Fist Sergeants or anything similar that doesn't have the options "straight out of the box".

Besides, you can build a Vendetta out of the Valkyrie kit; you just require 3 of the kits for each Vendetta, but it's all bits from the Valkyrie box. You get a Lascannon in each, after all. I doubt that the TO(s) are going to listen to that argument, but have it in mind.

Except I've got sarg's with power fists, and a razorback with las/plas. They are just older GW models.

Fair enough, but it has to be the old models then, no conversion allowed after all!

Also, absolutely no Long Fangs with 4x Missile Launchers or similar.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Also, absolutely no Long Fangs with 4x Missile Launchers or similar.

Unless of course you buy 4 kits of them from his store!

This sounds like a dumb rule. Dark angels could not run a deathwing list since there is no official Belial model and if someone can do a counts as using a terminator captain then you should be able to counts as a vendetta. Orks could not run a biker list since no wazzdakka they could not take Zogwort either no looted wagons either. Why not just hand out the army lists to players for them. I know how it can be in a small town though to get games in I would just let the TO know he is screwing his players over. Maybe run your own tourney just ask if you could use the store.

Other wise orks might be rough but their flyers are made of paper I have lost dakkajets a couple times to bolter fire and guard do pretty good against the rest of the ork list. Necrons though with the amount of flyers they can bring with better armor than the orks is what you really need to worry about. This tournament sounds like it's made for Necrons. I got no suggestions there except maybe AC spam.

Those tournament rules seem a bit harsh, and i've been to tournaments quite recently with some quite specific limitations. The most recent was: no special characters, no fliers, no fortifications, no forgeworld (excepting ones in the codices) and all models had to be WYSIWYG. I mean, i've recently started playing the game again, and decided to delve into my bits box and kit bash and convert pretty much every single model in my Imperial fists army, so a blanket 'no conversions' rule would really make me sad.

Are you absolutely certain you have the tournament limits correctly? you've not misread them or something? because (as an example) a marine assault squad can have a sergeant with a thunderhammer and storm shield, and i'm almost certain you would have to kitbash it (unless the assault marine boxed set has the options in it) making a legal codex entry 'illegal' for your tournament, (and yes i know its a bad way to spend your points but when he's painted he'll look awesome!)

Some tournament limits can seem harsh at first, but they make sense, and they challenge you to bring a competitive army, but the tournament you are asking advice for is just so absurd i would simply give it a miss entirely

This TO sounds like a massive clown.

 washout77 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Also, absolutely no Long Fangs with 4x Missile Launchers or similar.

Unless of course you buy 4 kits of them from his store!

But you can't even do that, because then he'd be able to bring his Vendettas! It has to be makeable from one box, or it's a no-go.

madtankbloke wrote:
Those tournament rules seem a bit harsh, and i've been to tournaments quite recently with some quite specific limitations. The most recent was: no special characters, no fliers, no fortifications, no forgeworld (excepting ones in the codices) and all models had to be WYSIWYG. I mean, i've recently started playing the game again, and decided to delve into my bits box and kit bash and convert pretty much every single model in my Imperial fists army, so a blanket 'no conversions' rule would really make me sad.

Are you absolutely certain you have the tournament limits correctly? you've not misread them or something? because (as an example) a marine assault squad can have a sergeant with a thunderhammer and storm shield, and i'm almost certain you would have to kitbash it (unless the assault marine boxed set has the options in it) making a legal codex entry 'illegal' for your tournament, (and yes i know its a bad way to spend your points but when he's painted he'll look awesome!)

Some tournament limits can seem harsh at first, but they make sense, and they challenge you to bring a competitive army, but the tournament you are asking advice for is just so absurd i would simply give it a miss entirely

Assault marine sarge with TH/SS is a NoGo, but iirc, you can do poweraxe/SS.

As far as the tournament, I would go 9 basilisk and as many mortars as you can fit, not quite as good as the FW barrage list, but can still burn a lot of time, and stupid TO deserves to have stupid lists played in his tournament. Or if you want somewhat effective, throw in some lascannon or autocannon HWSs to deal with tanks/transports, and a pair of CCSs to give BiD to the HWS for AA. Not as effective as Vendetta/hydra, but probably the best you can do.

Um, i would have to say screw that tournament. There are a lot of stuff you cant "buy" because GW doesnt have a model for it. Orks for example there is no GW version of Wazdakka or a biker boss, and both are nasty as hell (you must go FW to get them, or scratchbuild).

Sounds like someone leading it doesnt like Vendettas to me. And rather than figure out how to deal with them he/she put this lame rule up.

Sorry everyone, I had problems with my internet. Update on the ADL: It's allowed, so it's definitely going into the list with a quad gun, along with as much TL as possible (multiple Exterminators, I guess-I could throw a hull LC on them if I have the points to make them a bit more effective against other units). That should take care of the AA role as long as there is no uber-flyerspam around (NS, anyone?).

TO sounds like a real piece of work.

No offense, but I personally hope this tourney bombs out hardcore. This joker deserves to get a no-show.

If you insist on playing though.
AV 14 LRBT spam is fairly effective. Especially as most lists will be lacking.

If fortifications are allowed the landing pad could be an option to might not help kill the flyers but could allow 4+ invul on a bunch of other stuff to shoot at them. Problem is with necrons still being able to keep transports in the air until last turn and just beam down the troops to claim or contest obectives. Other than Necron air force though the landing pad could make everyone else pull their hair out.

Hedkrakka wrote:
That should take care of the AA role as long as there is no uber-flyerspam around (NS, anyone?).

Yeah, that's just foolishly optimistic. The tournament seems designed for Necron flyerspam since it removes all of the best AA units while doing nothing to slow down Necrons (since everything in their codex has a no-conversion model available).

My guess is the TO's friend has Necron flyerspam, and the rest of you are just contributing your entry fees to his prize.

Well I'd talk to your friend who is running this about how the rule is whacky and opens the game up to a lot of problems (options you are expected to convert on srg for instance). If he isn't down I'd recommend talking to a couple folks and testing the water about starting your own league. If you really want to protest you can try finding some space. Legions and banquet halls are often good to go for reliable hobbyists.

Also you can try curbing his behavior by asking to do orders for non gw things through his shop. Really this is just a special dumb game of its own he is making and you can probably still win it with some shifts.

I also realized, for IG players you can't have any Melta or Plasma in your vet squads unless they are the monopose metal models GW makes in blisters, since the Infantry sets don't come with them and any other way to get them would be a conversion...

This is gonna be a hard fought battle, my friend hahaha

 Peregrine wrote:

Hedkrakka wrote:
That should take care of the AA role as long as there is no uber-flyerspam around (NS, anyone?).

Yeah, that's just foolishly optimistic. The tournament seems designed for Necron flyerspam since it removes all of the best AA units while doing nothing to slow down Necrons (since everything in their codex has a no-conversion model available).

It could simply be designed for a Daemon list. Or a number of other things.

I did decide to back off in the end, since he started complaining about my army when I went to the LGS this morning: "Are you sure you can have three plasma guns in your command squad?"...

Screw this tournament.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And thanks to all who tried to help.

Hedkrakka wrote:
I did decide to back off in the end, since he started complaining about my army when I went to the LGS this morning: "Are you sure you can have three plasma guns in your command squad?"...

Screw this tournament.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And thanks to all who tried to help.

I would have told him that as he likely sells the IG codex in his store and has such a love for the things he sells in his store...maybe he should read it

Hedkrakka wrote:
I did decide to back off in the end, since he started complaining about my army when I went to the LGS this morning: "Are you sure you can have three plasma guns in your command squad?"...

Screw this tournament.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And thanks to all who tried to help.

Really.

REALLY?

Is the guy THAT clueless hahahaha, he works in a gaming store. You think he would know that kind of crap.

This kinda explains a lot actually. Maybe he really is quite clueless about other armies outside his own, and thus didn't realize how much he was hamstringing others. *sigh*

The guy seems like a twerp. Befriend him, but kinda patronize him. It should help things a little.

It was my impression that one can not even ban forgeworld from tourneys. How can one even entertain banning Vendettas?

Martel732 wrote:
It was my impression that one can not even ban forgeworld from tourneys. How can one even entertain banning Vendettas?

As a TO you can do whatever the hell you damn well please, its up to the players to determine if it was smart or not by whether or not they attend

Okay. If I were a TO, I'd have a hard time justifying banning Forgeworld, because its not like GW is a paragon of balance to begin with.

Could you post the army that won the tournament if you know who won?

Hedkrakka wrote:
when I went to the LGS this morning: "Are you sure you can have three plasma guns in your command squad?"...

This statement means that he is 110% unqualified to run a Warhammer 40K tournament, and clearly has no understanding of the impact of his chosen "Store Rules".

Sorry, compadre. Maybe you can offer to run the next one, or to run an escalation league for him.

Peregrine wrote:. Tell the TO to stop running stupid tournaments and take your business elsewhere.

What? Lots of tournaments and local groups use plenty of house rules to do things that can't be found in the rulebook.

I'd be surprised if you'd ever be able to play in any tournaments with that kind of attitude.

Hedkrakka wrote:I did decide to back off in the end, since he started complaining about my army when I went to the LGS this morning: "Are you sure you can have three plasma guns in your command squad?"...

Screw this tournament.

Of course, if the person is a jerk, regardless of what was set up as tournament rules, then you don't have to play him. People forcing homebrew "rules" down your throat and being an ass about it scarcely sounds conducive to a worthwhile social experience.

That said, I'd actually recommend that you voluntarily play without vendettas for awhile. If you're having a hard time figuring out how guard could be played without them, then play without them, precisely so that you can figure it out. If you're stuck with auto-include units that you're using as a crutch, there's probably a great deal of horizon expanding that you could benefit from.

Of course, don't expect others to stop using the tools available to them just because you've chosen to hamstring yourself.

 Grimnarsmate wrote:
Could you post the army that won the tournament if you know who won?

5 chocolate cookies on Necron flyer spam!

 Ailaros wrote:

That said, I'd actually recommend that you voluntarily play without vendettas for awhile. If you're having a hard time figuring out how guard could be played without them, then play without them, precisely so that you can figure it out. If you're stuck with auto-include units that you're using as a crutch, there's probably a great deal of horizon expanding that you could benefit from.

I totally agree with you that we should learn how to play without any one unit, especially since I believe that the Vendetta will cost like 200 points and/or lose TL or transport capacity in the next update (this is a case like the 80 point Carnifex in the 4th edition Tyranid codex, and look what's happened to it now...). I will do that in a few friendly games for sure. But that still leaves the question of how to cover the bases-what is the best way to get AT and AA without them? The ADL with support from EACs was the obvious choice for the latter, but I'm still unsure about the AT part. I had platoon LCs for that, but they aren't known for their great effectiveness against heavy armor... Combine with Melta Stormtroopers, maybe? Or get some Demolishers as infantry support tanks?

Well, so one of the things you can try doing is to ignore the air war altogether. Fliers can't score or contest objectives (well, their passengers can if applicable, but they have to get out to do so), which means, strategically speaking, they can be ignored. Also, just because a flier is hard to hit doesn't make it invincible. When I even bother shooting them at all, most of the kills I've made on fliers so far have been with meltaguns. Flood the field with them, and you're practically guaranteed to have one in range (sometimes even in +D6 range if you can get under them). Fliers are generally rather flimsy, and Ap1 makes a one-hit takedown shockingly likely. Add in BiD and a bunch of lascannons, and your anti-tank can easily double as anti-flier.

Plus, you're not going to be burdened by taking weapons that are more or less only worth taking against fliers on those times when you'll be facing off against opponents without ones.

As for anti-tank, you can get lascannons outside of vendettas. I've been spamming the hell out of lascannons in my infantry squads, for example. You also have things like medusas and melta stormies as well. Plus, russes are now heavy, which means that you can trundle around and fire hull weapons like lascannons and multimeltas. MM's won't get in good range until mid-game, but russes have the armor to survive until then, and can make a very terrible mess of things when they do.

The imperial guard has an awful lot of anti-vehicle. Just look in the back of your codex for things labeled melta, ordnance, or are Ap2 or better. We didn't have a problem handling tanks before we got vendettas, and we still don't have problems now, vendettas or no.

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll see how they work in a few games. I could hardly believe my eyes when I read about meltaguns taking down flyers, but hey, with an 18" threat range, it could work with a lot of luck. Lascannon spam+BiD also looks OK if it works, but I'm concerned about whether the CCS would survive long enough for the LC to have nothing better to shoot at than the flyers. Nevertheless, I'll certainly try LC spam sometime with AC counts-as LC, and if it works, hey, time to bust the ACs off the stand.

well, not THAT much luck. Let's say that you're going to be shooting at AV11 necron fliers, and that you'll always be out of melta range. A meltagun hits 1 in 6 times for 1 in 2 pens for 1 in 2 wrecks. Yeah, only a 1 in 24 shot. Then do it with 6 meltaguns over two turns, and you've suddenly brought that down to a 1 in 2 chance. That's not bad odds. For guns that you're not terribly likely shooting at anything else at the moment. Throw in some lascannons or some orders, or spam meltaguns harder, and you've got a pretty decent chance against fliers.

Plus, as mentioned, fliers are usually strategically irrelevant. In half the games you can just take out the scoring units if they brought a lot of fliers, and if they didn't bring a lot of fliers, then just ignore them.

Problem with that and the necron air list is they are transports with the troops choices inside. Might get lucky and get one or two when they come in then one or two go off the board so you cannot shoot at em then they zoom in at the end transport the troops down and capture or contest all the objectives. If you shoot one down no str 10 hits on the guys inside either =/ they just go back in reserve. On the other hand against my ork flyers I have had 4 guys with bolters shoot mine down with luck rolling lots of 6's so it's better than nothing when you do have nothing better to shoot at (to bad they are not av10 as well). I could see saying no Vendettas but don't also take out the skyfire tank and then when he thought no ADL's or other emplacements it was like ok that way to much (still don't expect the quad gun to last to long but at least those wound up being allowed).

Ailaros wrote:well, not THAT much luck. Let's say that you're going to be shooting at AV11 necron fliers, and that you'll always be out of melta range. A meltagun hits 1 in 6 times for 1 in 2 pens for 1 in 2 wrecks. Yeah, only a 1 in 24 shot. Then do it with 6 meltaguns over two turns, and you've suddenly brought that down to a 1 in 2 chance. That's not bad odds. For guns that you're not terribly likely shooting at anything else at the moment. Throw in some lascannons or some orders, or spam meltaguns harder, and you've got a pretty decent chance against fliers.

Plus, as mentioned, fliers are usually strategically irrelevant. In half the games you can just take out the scoring units if they brought a lot of fliers, and if they didn't bring a lot of fliers, then just ignore them.

Trouble with this is you forgot about the Night Scythe's saves; because it does just as much damage snap firing its TL Tesla Destructor as it does firing at full BS. You're actually looking more at a 1 in 4 chance spread across two turns; and this is only assuming there is a single Night Scythe, and not 4-6 of 'em. Then add in the fact that those Night Scythes will be tearing apart IG blobs with Str 7 Tesla, and it generally just doesn't make this a reliable strategy. I'm not saying it's impossible to deal with NS spam; I just don't see this as being practical.

 Ailaros wrote:
well, not THAT much luck. Let's say that you're going to be shooting at AV11 necron fliers, and that you'll always be out of melta range. A meltagun hits 1 in 6 times for 1 in 2 pens for 1 in 2 wrecks. Yeah, only a 1 in 24 shot. Then do it with 6 meltaguns over two turns, and you've suddenly brought that down to a 1 in 2 chance. That's not bad odds.

Twelve meltagun shots to maybe bring down a 130 point vehicle? Ailaros, that is in fact really bad odds.

Corollax wrote:


Twelve meltagun shots to maybe bring down a 130 point vehicle? Ailaros, that is in fact really bad odds.

Then you missed his point. If you actually read what he was saying the suggestion was: if there is no other target.
Ailaros was clearly saying ignore the air fight, but when you can shoot a flier with melta-guns, then do it. Since there is a chance (albeit small) that you'll knock it out.

The idea of ignoring fliers is a valid tactic, it may not win all the time but it works. I say this from experience of people at my FLGS ignoring my vendettas. It's actually rather irritating when they decide that there's far more easy targets to have a go at.

Corollax wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
well, not THAT much luck. Let's say that you're going to be shooting at AV11 necron fliers, and that you'll always be out of melta range. A meltagun hits 1 in 6 times for 1 in 2 pens for 1 in 2 wrecks. Yeah, only a 1 in 24 shot. Then do it with 6 meltaguns over two turns, and you've suddenly brought that down to a 1 in 2 chance. That's not bad odds.

Twelve meltagun shots to maybe bring down a 130 point vehicle? Ailaros, that is in fact really bad odds.

If you have 12 meltaguns left, and you aren't shooting them at anything, chances are there are no more tanks to kill. They got nothing better to shoot at.

And for the most part, unless it's Necron fliers, I ignore them. I have my AA, but I don't overly worry about it. The most my FLGS has in fliers are Necrons and Dark Eldar (and DE have like, AV10 so no big deal). Reason why I don't ignore Necron fliers is because most of them are actually dedicated transports, and have troops in them so I need to pop the transport before getting the troops out (because the Cron player I play with doesn't like to disembark until he is sure it's safe, because he knows his fliers are strong).

Hedkrakka wrote:
I did decide to back off in the end, since he started complaining about my army when I went to the LGS this morning: "Are you sure you can have three plasma guns in your command squad?"...

Screw this tournament.
And thanks to all who tried to help.

Glad that you went the route you did and glad we could help. I have to ask for the sake of my own curiosity, did you still go to your FLGS to possibly watch this train wreck of an event or know of anyone that did go or witnessed it?

While its their business to ban whatever they want, ive seen no fortifications and no special characters (im looking at you Draigo and Belial) it just seems silly to me that a whole lot of armies are getting taken down in the shuffle, esp since GW is notoriously lazy on making models with all the options. DE being a prime example, half of their units do not even have an official model and the rest of their wargear does not even have visual representation. If anything id say keep on playing at the store, but buy nothing else except cheap stuff from the internet out of pure spite. Also, id like to point out that i built my vendetta using the cast off TL Lascannons from an old Land Raider, magnetized of course, so there is ZERO forgeworld on that model. Also kindly point out that the model is in the Codex, so its not some fevered FW knock off either.

Yeah there should be some more blog posts and articles about dealing with dinky TOs

Actually DE are only missing a couple of units (Voidraven and Vect's pimp-ride are the only ones that come to mind) , and a few SC's.

The wargear issue i'll agree on though.

If the tournament wants to ban Vendettas (and they can) you can either man up and play without the undercosted vendettas (there ARE other options in the codex...not that anyone takes them because the vendettas are stupidly good at the price..) or tell him to feth off (as you have). Either route is fine.

He doesn't get your patronage/participation in the event. You don't have to play without your Vendettas.

Story done.

As the TO he can do what he likes with his tournament. If he wants to declare that only those with orange beards wearing tutus can compete he can. You don't have to attend.

Furthermore, even with the absurd notion that meltaguns cost 10 points PER SHOT, it's still a good deal to have 120 points take down a 130 point unit.

As others have mentioned, though, my point wasn't that meltaguns are a premiere AA weapon, but rather that meltaguns can still take down fliers.

For some reason, people have this strange idea that you need to have skyfire weapons to be able to hit fliers at all. If terminators fail armor saves, then regular weapons hit fliers.

Griddlelol wrote:The idea of ignoring fliers is a valid tactic, it may not win all the time but it works. I say this from experience of people at my FLGS ignoring my vendettas. It's actually rather irritating when they decide that there's far more easy targets to have a go at.

You can no more ignore the Necron flyers than you can ignore a rifleman dreadnought, as they're effectively the same thing insofar as offensive output goes. On top of it all, the NS is also a troop transport.

Ignoring Necron flyers is a very easy way to lose a game.

 azazel the cat wrote:

Ignoring Necron flyers is a very easy way to lose a game.

I said it was a valid tactic, not that you would always win. Necrons are one of the few armies that you can't really ignore due to the potential number they bring. It's the exception really, unless of course you count elysians, but they're no where near as common and have plenty of weaknesses of their own. However, if they don't go all out airforce, you can quite easily ignore them.
When the doomsythe comes on and wipes out a tank or two, it won't make a lot of different whether I had vendettas for AA or not. The damage is done. A quad-gun similarly has a tiny chance of actually destroying it.

 Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
Glad that you went the route you did and glad we could help. I have to ask for the sake of my own curiosity, did you still go to your FLGS to possibly watch this train wreck of an event or know of anyone that did go or witnessed it?

No to the first question, yes to the second one. Three of my friends attended and two of them (with Eldar and BT) were eliminated on Day 1 (two games).

 Ailaros wrote:
For some reason, people have this strange idea that you need to have skyfire weapons to be able to hit fliers at all. If terminators fail armor saves, then regular weapons hit fliers.

It's a lot easier to wound a T4 model than penetrate an AV12 vehicle. And when you're trying for those 1/6 chances, you want to be able to roll a lot of dice.

So? Meltaguns and lascannons still can and do take down fliers. You don't need dedicated AA in order to handle fliers.

And as for ignoring necron fliers being an auto-loss, I highly disagree. I've won roughly half the games I've played against my local mult-flier necron army, and I've done it largely without dedicated AA weapons.

Necron stuff is expensive. In order to have a decent air force, you've got to make serious sacrifices to either ground firepower or scoring units, both of which can easily be a strategic Achilles's heel.

Hedkrakka wrote:

 Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
Glad that you went the route you did and glad we could help. I have to ask for the sake of my own curiosity, did you still go to your FLGS to possibly watch this train wreck of an event or know of anyone that did go or witnessed it?

No to the first question, yes to the second one. Three of my friends attended and two of them (with Eldar and BT) were eliminated on Day 1 (two games).

Oh do tell. I would love to hear about their accounts of how it went/was managed/how the TO was. How did they end up feeling about the event? What list ended up winning? Since they were both eliminated on Day 1, what knocked them out of the event? Did the TO ensure that all models were not conversions or similarly violate their standards for this event? What do your friends say about the other people at the event and how they felt about it? Did they, or yourself let the TO know how/why they felt about this event? So many questions!

 Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
Oh do tell. I would love to hear about their accounts of how it went/was managed/how the TO was. How did they end up feeling about the event? What list ended up winning? Since they were both eliminated on Day 1, what knocked them out of the event? Did the TO ensure that all models were not conversions or similarly violate their standards for this event? What do your friends say about the other people at the event and how they felt about it? Did they, or yourself let the TO know how/why they felt about this event? So many questions!

Indeed. I haven't talked to them in depth about how they felt about the event or the people, but I'm sure they weren't too depressed, they're both pretty easy-going guys.The tournament will be over tonight, and my third friend also lost (to yours truly, Necrons), I have no desire to keep track of the tournament. The others lost to Orks and BA. I imagine the TO enforced his rules pretty thoroughly, considering he attempted to troll my CCS for bringing a perfectly legal amount of special weapons. I just wonder about the validity of such rules. Answering your final question, why would I talk to the TO again? It's a mere 2-3 months before I move, so I don't need to get along with him (thank God). It doesn't matter how anyone feels about it, as long as there are people playing them, he can make up rules. I really begin to understand what all the people who told me to screw the tournament were talking about.

Corollax wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
For some reason, people have this strange idea that you need to have skyfire weapons to be able to hit fliers at all. If terminators fail armor saves, then regular weapons hit fliers.

It's a lot easier to wound a T4 model than penetrate an AV12 vehicle. And when you're trying for those 1/6 chances, you want to be able to roll a lot of dice.

Lascannon pens AV12 on a 4+. Most small-arms wound T4 on a 4+.

Which brings me again tot he issue of rolling a lot of dice.

What's greater? Your ratio of small arms fire to enemy terminators, or your ratio of small arms meltaguns to enemy vehicles?

 Hedkrakka wrote:
It's a mere 2-3 months before I move, so I don't need to get along with him (thank God).

I must have missed this part. If I had known, I DEFINITELY would have said 'screw that noise, go pack some boxes.'

Ailaros wrote:So? Meltaguns and lascannons still can and do take down fliers. You don't need dedicated AA in order to handle fliers.

And as for ignoring necron fliers being an auto-loss, I highly disagree. I've won roughly half the games I've played against my local mult-flier necron army, and I've done it largely without dedicated AA weapons.

Necron stuff is expensive. In order to have a decent air force, you've got to make serious sacrifices to either ground firepower or scoring units, both of which can easily be a strategic Achilles's heel.

A Night Scythe w/ 5x Warriors is only 165 points. That's silly-cheap. You can fly six of that unit at 990 points (I think six is too many, though... 4 is the magic number IMO). That leaves lots of room for other threats, such as two units of 6x Wraiths w/ 4 & 3 Whip Coils, 3x A.Barges, and a couple of D.Lords.

I think one of the things that makes the Necron Air Force such a hazard is that unlike most Necron units, this one is dirt cheap on the points and doesn't really require much of a sacrifice in other areas.

 azazel the cat wrote:

Ailaros wrote:So? Meltaguns and lascannons still can and do take down fliers. You don't need dedicated AA in order to handle fliers.

And as for ignoring necron fliers being an auto-loss, I highly disagree. I've won roughly half the games I've played against my local mult-flier necron army, and I've done it largely without dedicated AA weapons.

Necron stuff is expensive. In order to have a decent air force, you've got to make serious sacrifices to either ground firepower or scoring units, both of which can easily be a strategic Achilles's heel.

A Night Scythe w/ 5x Warriors is only 165 points. That's silly-cheap. You can fly six of that unit at 990 points (I think six is too many, though... 4 is the magic number IMO). That leaves lots of room for other threats, such as two units of 6x Wraiths w/ 4 & 3 Whip Coils, 3x A.Barges, and a couple of D.Lords.

I think one of the things that makes the Necron Air Force such a hazard is that unlike most Necron units, this one is dirt cheap on the points and doesn't really require much of a sacrifice in other areas.

While silly cheap, I think the big kick is that a lot of the Necron fliers are dedicated transports so they don't even need to sacrifice troops to get them like other armies where they are Fast Attack.

Yes, it is *possible* to shoot down a zooming flyer w/o AA, but it is still far easier to torrent terminators, as they are vulnerable to small arms fire. Even AV 11 laughs at non-Tau small arms. Unless termigants can still get STR 5 fleshborers

Hedkrakka wrote:Indeed. I haven't talked to them in depth about how they felt about the event or the people, but I'm sure they weren't too depressed, they're both pretty easy-going guys.The tournament will be over tonight, and my third friend also lost (to yours truly, Necrons), I have no desire to keep track of the tournament. The others lost to Orks and BA. I imagine the TO enforced his rules pretty thoroughly, considering he attempted to troll my CCS for bringing a perfectly legal amount of special weapons. I just wonder about the validity of such rules. Answering your final question, why would I talk to the TO again? It's a mere 2-3 months before I move, so I don't need to get along with him (thank God). It doesn't matter how anyone feels about it, as long as there are people playing them, he can make up rules. I really begin to understand what all the people who told me to screw the tournament were talking about.

Thank you for answering! Yeah, since you are moving away, screw it. It wouldn't hurt to possibly "help" the 40k scene in your area prior to your leaving, but as you said, as long as there are the people willing to abide by that TO's restrictions, then I suppose there isn't much of a point.

Briancj wrote:

 Hedkrakka wrote:
It's a mere 2-3 months before I move, so I don't need to get along with him (thank God).

I must have missed this part. If I had known, I DEFINITELY would have said 'screw that noise, go pack some boxes.'

Yeah, I must have missed that part too.

 Hedkrakka wrote:
I did decide to back off in the end, since he started complaining about my army when I went to the LGS this morning: "Are you sure you can have three plasma guns in your command squad?"...

Screw this tournament.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And thanks to all who tried to help.

You should have told him... "Actually I can take 4, but whos counting?".

I would have done the same thing btw.

honestly i would say that i bought three valks and out of the kit it allows you to build a vend with three valk boxes

if you cant i would just spam the one lrbt that has the ridiculous amount of shots per tank then some plasma russes and anihilate the ground with the plasma and shoot down fliers with the super bolter thingy i dont play ig i have no idea what its called

mainly if you dont have any valks and the TO is being a stubborn little dink then play the tourny with lrbt spam and then at the end after you win call shenanigans on him then the whole city will beat him with brooms and you will win

Your best bet would be Leman Russ Exterminators, or Las/Auto Cannon Spam (Auto for AA, Las for AT)

Bring them Heavy Weapon Squads and 2 CCS!

The tournament is over.

 Briancj wrote:
The tournament is over.

What, do you mean I have to read the thread before posting?!