Ok so it has been itching in the back of my mind for a while, i have heard so many variants of the strength of space marines, IE the whole to take a town send a marine, to take a city send a squad to take a planet send a company to wipe out a belief send a chapter.
Storys of 1 space marine taking on 100s of orks by him self and what not, But really how strong is a squad of space marines?
could they really take a whole city? I mean if they are lucky enough any thing can happen.
There are two (three) different versions of Space Marines.
There is the game fluff version, where power armor is nigh invincible to small arms, is faster, stronger, and smarter than the average human being, and fights smart using strategies that exploit their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. Those Space Marines can do most of the things you suggest above.
There are the game rules Space Marines, where Games Workshop needs to sell you dozens of them in order to be profitable, and is also making a competitive game where two evenly balanced armies fight a conventional stand up fight. Those Space Marines are dumbed down and their power dialed back for the purposes of A: making a profitable game, and B: Making a fair and interesting game. Those Marines can't do what you are asking about, lol. Remember, if Marines did what they were supposed to do on the tabletop, you'd only need like 15 of them, and your opponents would need to buy hundreds of models.
And then there are the Black Library fluff Space Marines who are exactly as strong or vulnerable as the story needs them to be at any given time.
A marine is the pinnicle of genetic engineering. His body is extremely resiliant. Their bones are made of extremely strong ceramic compounds, their blood clots almost immediatly, their body doesn't suffer from hydrostatic shock, they have a third lung(which also allows them to breath underwater), they have enhanced vision, hearing, and muscle mass. Plus more efficient red blood cells.
All that is combined with a brutal training course that has upwards of 80% failure(and failure almost always means death)
Plus a marine lives for far longer than a normal human. 6-700 years in fact. All of it spent in constant battle and training for battle.
Then the Marine wears incredibly durable Power Armor and wields highly advanced weapons.
So unless normal humans have specific weapons that can cut through even these mighty enhancements they IRL wouldn't stand a chance. If a marine were pitted against 1000 humans armed with modern firearms and the battle took place in a ruined city the Marine would utterly destroy the humans. They would need RPGs to even have a hope of cracking his armor. Not even grenades would be the best weapon to use.
OP: As you have mentioned, you have heard many different things about the strength of the Space Marines. There is no one version "truer" than the others; it all depends on which sources in particular you want to go by. The actual combat capabilities of the Astartes are shrouded behind a veil of glorified legends and tales of epic yet exceptional heroics. Adding to this confusion, this franchise does not enforce a truly uniform canon but rather grants considerable leeway to the various authors writing the licensed products, leading to numerous different interpretations of the Astartes, along with other assets of the setting. This in turn has led many fans to develop different ideas about the Space Marines as well, often drawing conclusions from all sorts of combinations of the various products. Everyone pretty much agrees that Space Marines are the best, it's just that there is a considerable controversy about how much better they are.
That is why you hear so many different things. And you will have to decide for yourself how you want the Space Marines to be in your perception of the setting.
My advise: Study all the material directly (rather than relying solely on fan hearsay or wiki editors), and then make your decision either based on a specific style of Astartes, or on how much you value one author or type of source over another.
Personally, I'm going with what Primarch Rogal Dorn has said: "Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or, failing that, give me a thousand other troops."
Veteran Sergeant wrote:There is the game fluff version, where power armor is nigh invincible to small arms, [...]
"Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium." - game fluff
I would assume the ~85% range = lasguns. Which, coincidentally, fits quite well to the abstracted TT rules.
Also, how smart a Space Marine fights would seem to depend a lot on the Chapter, the doctrines taught by its officers and the stability of its geneseed. Much like how there are many different degrees of tactical acumen between the various regiments of the Imperial Guard as well.
As an example, there are a number of Chapters who seem to suffer from some sort of blood lust, so much so that they go into a mindless rage that would surely affect their cognitive abilities. We even have in-setting reports of Space Marines eating allied militia. On the other end of the spectrum, we have Chapters like the Ultramarines, who seem to value proper situational analysis and combat tactics a lot and have a reputation for producing great leaders.
Grey Templar wrote:Plus a marine lives for far longer than a normal human. 6-700 years in fact.
Small sidenote: the standard is 2-3 times as long as an average human being, at least according to the 6E rulebook.
40k fluff not having a high degree of consistency means that different sources will give different impressions, so I'm sure that "6-700 years" is also said somewhere.
Same about the multi-lung; I think I know where this bit about "breathing water" is from, but the original Index Astartes article on Space Marine organs did not confer such an ability as it talked about the capabilities of this particular implant.
In the end, it is all a matter of interpretation - coupled with our own personal preferences, including whether we lean more towards "gritty realism" or "shiny heroics".
A)depends on the squad. In urban fighting assault marines with jump pax will own the place, especially with a flamer.
B)in stories sm are real strength,in game they have 2 be scaled down
&theyshallknownofear wrote:b)in stories sm are real strength,in game they have 2 be scaled down
I would say that, aside from stories depicting them with a great variety of "power levels" rather than following some uniform pattern, Space Marines are actually scaled up there, simply because people like to read about epic heroes kicking butt more than their favourite character being felled by a stray shrapnel or other such inglorious fates.
This applies to all protagonists in stories, not just Space Marines. I would say they are even more prone to a certain level of exaggeration, though, for "being the best" is a fairly big pillar of their identity as an army, and it is evident how most(?) fans would like them to be. The ongoing Astartes body height inflation (7 feet ... 8 feet ... 9 feet ... 11 feet) I see every so often is a small but notable side-effect of this tendency.
Note that I'm not at all saying that you are not supposed to think of your Space Marines as being that good ... just that you should not base such perception on a bunch of bolterporn novels as if they would offer "proof".
It is a matter of taste and preferences much more than some hypothetical evidence, for as Andy Hoare once commented, "there is no such objective truth".
It depends. By Lynata, Grey Templar and Veteran Sergeant posts you can see how many things varying in the fluff when it comes to Astartes. I will post now what is 100% true about Astartes when the question of their strenght is asked:
- Nobody knows how many years can Astartes live because they all die sooner or later. Dante and several other Astartes ( Asmodai, Ludoldus ) showed us that that Astartes can live up 1.000 or even 2.500 years. GW never gave us answer for this, and it probably never will. But it's not far stretched either to assume that they are immortal, giving how their bodies were made to last and to be resilient to everything.
- Their armor ( especially Terminator armor ) is quite resilient and one of the best armor pieces in the galaxy. How strong it is depends on the fluff and who is writing it. Like Lynata said the armor is not that much good and it can be penetrated by concentrated fire, the most common knowledge is that joints are the weakest part and they can be penetrated in 1'st shot, then we have examples fro mUltramarines the Movie ( power armor get's cut by single hit from Chain Axe ) and Dawn of War II Retribution intro ( Terminator goes down from single plasma hit ). On the other hand we have examples from fluff where their armor is resilient as hell. From being able to take direct hits from enemy MBT's and survive ( Dawn of War II ) to being able to take direct hit from Orbital Bombardment and survive even if everything around it got melted or blown away to oblivion ( Grey Knights 5'th edition codex ). For armor I can say nothing for sure because it varies from source to source. But I can say for sure that it is resilient enough to survive the most severe punishments. And it probably require heavy weapons to be brought down.
-As for actual fighting strenght of Space Marine...that also vary as hell. But I can say this for sure, as Rogal Dorn said: one Space Marine is worth like 100 Guardsmen. And as we have seen in the fluff, one marine is worth even more if he is on a team. It's worth to the point where several teams of Astartes can destroy entire cities all by themselves.
-As for numerical superiority... that is probably the hardest thing to agree on usefulness. While GW fluff said that "you can take a chapter and destroy a civilization" there are many examples on how they can suffer massive casualties themselves ( Crimson Fists, Scytes of the Emperor, Ultramarines ), and needing more than 1.000 Marines to finish the job ( Macharian Heresy, Night of 1.000 rebellions ). Even with all of this said one Astartes chapter is very powerful, to the point that it can be more efficient and deal much grater damage than even the entire Imperial Guard army groups.
Conclusion: this fluff piece from GW should be enough to see how useful they actually are:
"Without the protection of the Imperium the Mankind would fall prey to countless threats that assail it. Without the protection of Space Marines the Imperial Guard would fail to defend Imperium form all enemies that are attacking it."
In short - Space Marines are the main reason why Imeprium is still standing, they are winning the battles that decided the war and they are getting in battle when most needed and against all odds they win it,. And giving the fact that they are called "Emperor Angels of Death" and raise moral sky-high whenever they appear they are pretty damn important part of Imperial war machine, if not the most important.
Umm ... a small addition to the above, for I do not agree about some of those supposedly "100% true" points.
- Dante is said to be the oldest living Space Marine, and he clocks out at about 1.100 years. As mentioned in the 6E rulebook, a Space Marine, "provided he does not fall to battle, can easily live two to three times longer than a normal man, and sometimes far longer". The exceptions aside, even an average lifespan already implies that they obviously cannot be "immortal".
- I have provided Codex fluff about Astartes power armour sporting a protective rating of 50-85% against small arms. That's a fairly high chance to get injured for something that supposedly "survives the most severe punishments". It actually kinda reads as if you contradicted yourself in that paragraph, going from "not that much good" to "requiring heavy weapons to be brought down".. Note also how the GK Codex actually says nothing about "direct hits from orbital bombardment", but just that the GKs on Sondheim V were within an area full of ruins that got bombarded. Considering the size of buildings in 40k, that means a lot of potential cover, though certainly amplified by power armour (more against the walls coming down around them rather than the actual ordinance, I imagine).
- The idea of a single Space Marine Chapter "dealing much greater damage than even entire Imperial Guard army groups" reeks of overhype. The Space Marines are surgical shock troops who rely on rapid (re)deployment and shock-and-awe tactics to overcome their foes, not with bringing more firepower than the friggin' Guard.
Which is why, coincidentally, one of the IG codices also notes that the Imperial Guard is called in when "a conflict is simply too large, the enemy too powerful or too well entrenched for local forces, ships or Space Marines to defeat".
The Space Marines certainly are more efficient, however. That's the entire point. The Guard is called in when this efficiency isn't enough - when you need to choke the enemy with numbers and ordinance. Both the Guard and the Space Marines are necessary and vital components of the Imperial war machine. Not just because Space Marines cannot deploy everywhere, but also because their style of warfare is often not up to the job.
Case in point: the ongoing conflict in Armageddon, now a war of attrition, where "many Space Marine Chapters withdrew, their lightning attack style of warfare of less relevance to this new stage of the war" (WD #281). On the other hand, "a 10.000 lightyear recruitment zone has been established around Armageddon, and every Imperial world in this area had their tithe of Imperial Guard regiments tripled" (WD #251).
This gets especially obvious when you compare the Force Disposition Chart from 721999.M41 with this one from after the Season of Fire, and note how the number of Guard regiments has increased dramatically, but the presence of Adeptus Astartes has notably decreased. And this is shortly before the Relictors, at that time the largest Chapter on the chart, departed, picking a fight with the Imperial Navy along the way.
At the end of the day, the Imperial Guard is way more important to the continueing existence of the Imperium than the Space Marines are. Starting with the very fact that the Space Marines are much too few to get even close to doing the Guard's job.
The Adeptus Astartes are, as someone else very accurately put it, a "force multiplier". Extremely useful to influence an ongoing campaign with surgical strikes or rapid area denial deployments. But if you want to wage a full-scale war, ... well, there's another army better suited for the task.
Note that I'm not putting this down as some sort of absolute gospel you'd have to adopt. Actually, I know that some non-GW material directly contradicts the stuff I said above. However, I'm merely doing this to give a perfect example of what I meant earlier, and to show that, as Marc Gascoigne once put it, "everything and nothing is true". There is no such thing as a 100% truth on this level of detail.
Yeah, I'm assuming "normal man" means the average guy from the street, not some juiced-up Inquisitor or whatever who regularly gets rejuvenat treatments.
Actually makes me wonder whether or not the average lifespan for the normal Imperial citizen may not be lower than it is in today's Western world, considering what a gakky place to live in the Imperium is on many worlds...
Though I have a feeling the authors were thinking of what we consider "normal lifespan" today, else they would have probably hinted at the difference. The rulebook's descriptions are an outsider's look at the setting, after all.
Yeah I would say Life span is all in what class of people you are. Noble men have long lifespans while scum prob be lucky to see 40. I was just bringing it up as SM living 3 or 400 years is neat and all ( most I say never make it due to ya know getting stabs, shot eaten) But its not something limited to Sm either.
Space Marines tend to be depicted in most if not all fluff as nigh-invulnerable juggernauts that can turn the tide of wars all on their own, but that fluff tends to be written in the form of what is effectively in-universe propaganda. All Codexes are written to plug their own army as the greatest and most terrible fighting force in the galaxy, which suggests to me that the true measure must be found somewhere between the tabletop rules and fluff written from someone else's perspective.
A Space Marine is very tough and nigh-invulnerable to small-arms fire; this much is commonly held to be true. A Space Marine is sufficiently well-trained and well-armed to make short work of run-of-the-mill heretics, this much is commonly held to be true. What this means in the context of war is something else entirely, given that they're seldom facing run-of-the-mill heretics or gangsters; if said Space Marines are going up against an indefensible city defended by rogue PDF troops with limited to no support, they'll probably squash it, but if they're facing a hardened position held by well-trained and well-armed renegade Guardsmen, they'll have a tougher time of it.
There's no absolute 'how powerful are these people, really?', given that it depends on the situation, the enemy, the battlefield, and a whole host of other things. Try watching the intro video for Dawn of War 2, it gives an interesting impression of a variety of Space Marines and Eldar playing rock-paper-scissors with different tactical scenarios; as armies, they may be about equal on some level, but individually it depends on the situation and the matchups to see who will come out on top.
@AnomanderRake I think youre evaluation is pretty accurate overall. I also agree with lynata the space marines are indeed a force multiplier and most wars could be won by IG all on their lonesome. However, they are still important in that with the amount of conflict the IOM gets itself into force multiplyers become increasingly essential.
It depends on the squad. they are obviously beyond the level of how god mode the spartan 2s were made in the Halo books. But training and luck are everything. Life is all rolls of the dice gods. Even looking at the Alamo where 100 normal guys took out over 600 of the enemy from a defendable position. Its pretty amazing. Those were real people too, not the fictional mandollies we play with. Being in the military theres people who have been shot several times and still manage to save other marines. Humans are amazing with training and willpower. Now multiply that a billion fold and you have space marines ((ten billion fold and you have space wolves))
I think the horus heresy novels are the best example of a space marines power. Although if anyones read fulgrim about 10 marines and fulgrim kill hundreds of eldar including a wraithlord and an avatar suffering no casualties. I think that part was a fail. Lol.
Note that I'm not putting this down as some sort of absolute gospel you'd have to adopt. Actually, I know that some non-GW material directly contradicts the stuff I said above. However, I'm merely doing this to give a perfect example of what I meant earlier, and to show that, as Marc Gascoigne once put it, "everything and nothing is true". There is no such thing as a 100% truth on this level of detail.
Of course not... you have just showed how different things may be from the points I listed.
The fluff simply too much vary to show us how really powerful they are.
In one point they are gods of war and in the other they are dying from several Lasgun shots.
Shuriken weapons would likely be even less effective against power armor than las weapons.
It's difficult to categorize "small arms" in 40K because of the lack of common traits with modern firearms, but essentially anything that was single-man portable in terms of both weapon and ammunition, and any crew served weapon that fired a common shell with those weapons (heavy bolters, stubbers, etc), but not including crew served anti-vehicular weapons like las cannons or missile launchers.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Shuriken weapons would likely be even less effective against power armor than las weapons.
It's difficult to categorize "small arms" in 40K because of the lack of common traits with modern firearms, but essentially anything that was single-man portable in terms of both weapon and ammunition, and any crew served weapon that fired a common shell with those weapons (heavy bolters, stubbers, etc), but not including crew served anti-vehicular weapons like las cannons or missile launchers.
Shuriken weapons have about the same ability to penetrate armour as boltguns. Boltguns are often shown to be somewhat effective ( especialy when used by loyalists against chaosmarines *cough*) against powerarmour.
In tabletop game rules. I'm talking more applied to "real world" physics of high speed, fragile ammunition against hardened armor.
Though technically, shuriken weapons have the same chance to penetrate power armor as lots of things. As in none. They penetrate by bypassing the armor. Hitting weak spots, etc. If they strike the hard surface armor, they do nothing. If the armor "saves", no damage. If it does not, then the strength of the weapon is measured against the squishy bits of the Marine underneath (though 40K reverses the rolls for simplicity's sake).
My thought it that it would take significantly less sophisticated armor to defeat shuriken ammunition than it would to defeat las weapons.
nomotog wrote:I have seen some people argue that power armor is immune to bolt gun fire.
Hah. On what grounds?
I think these people would misinterpret the abstracted rules. AP in the tabletop means that the weapon is so powerful that it would breach the armour every single time. If power armour were "immune" to boltgun fire you would not have to take an Armour Save to prevent being wounded by it.
In GW's Inquisitor RPG, the rules resolve armour saves a bit differently, by having each armour sport a specific armour protection rating, which needs to be overcome by the weapon's raw damage. And Space Marine power armour is AV10, whereas bolters do 2d10+4 damage (using normal ammunition). So ... yeah.
Coincidentally, lasguns do 2d6, which means they have a chance of 16.6% of wounding an armoured Astartes. Which fits nicely to what the tabletop's Angels of Death Codex already noted, regarding the "50-85% protection against most common small arms".
Veteran Sergeant wrote: In tabletop game rules. I'm talking more applied to "real world" physics of high speed, fragile ammunition against hardened armor.
Though technically, shuriken weapons have the same chance to penetrate power armor as lots of things. As in none. They penetrate by bypassing the armor. Hitting weak spots, etc. If they strike the hard surface armor, they do nothing. If the armor "saves", no damage. If it does not, then the strength of the weapon is measured against the squishy bits of the Marine underneath (though 40K reverses the rolls for simplicity's sake).
My thought it that it would take significantly less sophisticated armor to defeat shuriken ammunition than it would to defeat las weapons.
If power armor was made to defeat weapons like the lsagun and med-range weapons (by this I mean weapons less than anti-tank) you think the humble lasgun would have better status than they do in game.
Also from my understanding and IMO boltguns were made with the idea to defeat power armor, just doesn't show in game play. The power of a space marine IMO in the current time has changed from the HH due to the fact that they no longer have the army size to fight long wars of attrition and even during the HH they didn't like to fight that way (expect for a few like the Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists)
nomotog wrote:I have seen some people argue that power armor is immune to bolt gun fire.
Hah. On what grounds?
I think these people would misinterpret the abstracted rules. AP in the tabletop means that the weapon is so powerful that it would breach the armour every single time. If power armour were "immune" to boltgun fire you would not have to take an Armour Save to prevent being wounded by it.
In GW's Inquisitor RPG, the rules resolve armour saves a bit differently, by having each armour sport a specific armour protection rating, which needs to be overcome by the weapon's raw damage. And Space Marine power armour is AV10, whereas bolters do 2d10+4 damage (using normal ammunition). So ... yeah.
Coincidentally, lasguns do 2d6, which means they have a chance of 16.6% of wounding an armoured Astartes. Which fits nicely to what the tabletop's Angels of Death Codex already noted, regarding the "50-85% protection against most common small arms".
They claimed that you needed a vengeance round to penetrate the armor.
DW keeps that same armor value too. It's 10 in the chest and 8 everywhere else. They also list las rifles at about 7, pulse rifles at about 16, bolt guns at about 20.
Seems that armor isn't the cause of SMs invincibility.
Well, it doesn't take vengeance rounds in the tabletop, the Inquisitor RPG, or GW's fluff.
I won't dismiss the possibility that vengeance rounds would be necessary somewhere else, though ... 40k fluff isn't uniform, as we see every so often.
DW has the innate ruleset problem of Toughness basically making Marines invincible to many weapons due to how it forms a second layer of armour, thus basically doubling their resilience.
In Inquisitor, Toughness just governs how well you can deal with injuries you receive - but it does not prevent them. Which I think is a much better approach, as it does not result in characters getting tougher than the armour they wear, or from becoming invul to guns that should actually harm them.
I don't think DW considers it a problem. They try to replicate the BL style where SM take on hoards of everything. Though it dose kind of reenforce the idea that power armor isn't all that wonderful. Even in the most out there version of SMs power armor can be penetrated by a a few las rounds.
PA is a good armor because of its sloped surfaces. So if a shurican or bolt shot hits the armor at any sort of angle it will deflect away. It would only penetrate if it hit a weak spot, like a joint, or it hit the armor dead on. And even than bolt shells are often depected as flattening on impact and falling away. Its all about the angles and if the armor has been damaged by repeated impacts.
Grey Templar wrote: PA is a good armor because of its sloped surfaces. So if a shurican or bolt shot hits the armor at any sort of angle it will deflect away. It would only penetrate if it hit a weak spot, like a joint, or it hit the armor dead on. And even than bolt shells are often depected as flattening on impact and falling away. Its all about the angles and if the armor has been damaged by repeated impacts.
Ah, but Cap is still "technically" only enhanced to the peak of human potential, Wolverine is a bit beyond that. I should have noted sans the adamantium skeleton though.
Also, power armour is not immune to bolter rounds, but it is resistant to it, Marines in the fluff have taken shots to the head from point-blank and only suffered a busted up helmet.
Grey Templar wrote: PA is a good armor because of its sloped surfaces. So if a shurican or bolt shot hits the armor at any sort of angle it will deflect away. It would only penetrate if it hit a weak spot, like a joint, or it hit the armor dead on. And even than bolt shells are often depected as flattening on impact and falling away. Its all about the angles and if the armor has been damaged by repeated impacts.
Sloped armor is nice. It allows it to deflect some of the force just not all the force like you seem to think. (This actually makes me wonder if anyone ever tried to defend boom armor as tactically sound because of the sloped curves.)
Again though, the Black Library fluff suffers from the Inverse Law of Armor, or the Law of Conservation of Armor.
In any given fight, there is only so much armor available to any given side. So while one single protagonist might be invincible, his bolt rounds will tear through hordes of opposing Marines.
nomotog wrote: I have seen some people argue that power armor is immune to bolt gun fire.
I guess those people think that power armor and bolters were originally created as a kind of "paintball" exercise for the Marines?
Technically, the Marines weren't designed to fight eachother. Boltguns were designed to kill the galaxy's other squishy bits.
The idea of Marines fighting Marines came later. And realistically, in the context of the 40K universe, Chaos Marines fight Space Marines relatively rarely. Hence the need for the specialized rounds that exist in the fluff(and game) for killing power armor. But typically, a Space Marine is fighting lightly armored, low toughness opponents where the cheap, readily available standard ammunition is more than sufficient.
People still have a hard time divorcing the fluff from the tabletop rules. 40K the game is not an accurate representation of how warfare would work if 40K was real. It's just a set of rules to sell models and allow for balanced fights between evenly matched forces on neutral terrain. You know, something that almost never exists in actual warfare, lol. The boltguns in 40K are firing the standard issue ammunition, which is light armor piercing, anti-personnel.
It's really no wonder, however, that role playing games fail to depict realistic combat effects either, lol. I mean, come on here. Nobody wants to play a combat simulator. Companies have tried that, many times, and they end up being niche games for hardcore gamers. Combat also tends to take forever because of all the variables and tables and modifiers, etc. Deathwatch even goes so far as to just lump enemies into giant packs of fodder because killing enemies one at a time is so boring and takes too much time. Sorta hard to take it too seriously as the authority on combat mechanics of 40K weapons.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Again though, the Black Library fluff suffers from the Inverse Law of Armor, or the Law of Conservation of Armor.
In any given fight, there is only so much armor available to any given side. So while one single protagonist might be invincible, his bolt rounds will tear through hordes of opposing Marines.
Grey Templar wrote: PA is a good armor because of its sloped surfaces. So if a shurican or bolt shot hits the armor at any sort of angle it will deflect away. It would only penetrate if it hit a weak spot, like a joint, or it hit the armor dead on. And even than bolt shells are often depected as flattening on impact and falling away. Its all about the angles and if the armor has been damaged by repeated impacts.
Sloped armor is nice. It allows it to deflect some of the force just not all the force like you seem to think. (This actually makes me wonder if anyone ever tried to defend boom armor as tactically sound because of the sloped curves.)
Where did I say it would deflect all of the force? The armor is sloped quite a lot for body armor on top of being made out of incredibly sturdy material.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Again though, the Black Library fluff suffers from the Inverse Law of Armor, or the Law of Conservation of Armor.
In any given fight, there is only so much armor available to any given side. So while one single protagonist might be invincible, his bolt rounds will tear through hordes of opposing Marines.
Was that to me?
That happened in the 4e Chaos Marines codex.
If it was to you, I'd have quoted your text wouldn't I have?
I think much of a space Marine's 'power' comes from reputation and psychology more than anything else. Which is actually more potent than one might think in 40K, given that thought and emotion influence the Warp. So all the gear given to the Space Marine, the overengineered body and superhuman abilities, all basically go towards building and maintaining that reputation as champions/heroes/figures of terror and awe and intimidation.
Because from an objective standpoint its rather hard to justify Space Marines as cost effective otherwise
Grey Templar wrote: PA is a good armor because of its sloped surfaces. So if a shurican or bolt shot hits the armor at any sort of angle it will deflect away. It would only penetrate if it hit a weak spot, like a joint, or it hit the armor dead on. And even than bolt shells are often depected as flattening on impact and falling away. Its all about the angles and if the armor has been damaged by repeated impacts.
Ah, but Cap is still "technically" only enhanced to the peak of human potential, Wolverine is a bit beyond that. I should have noted sans the adamantium skeleton though.
Also, power armour is not immune to bolter rounds, but it is resistant to it, Marines in the fluff have taken shots to the head from point-blank and only suffered a busted up helmet.
Wolverine's regen abilities seperate him to far from the baseline SM though. Captain America might be a little below a SM in physical combat and healing. But he does offer a great example as in an army of Caps to represent a SM Legion well enough.
Finding a true-ish example of PA is harder though.
Sm power armor have been shot though by IG lasguns before. Its though but not like a comic book alloy. I will agree Sm's are more cap then wolverine, although either would murder a Sm one on one That may be mostly as comics tend to be even more OTT then 40k.
Again though, Black Library Law of Conservation of Armor. Obviously in that story, there was too much armor being used by the other side, so that Marine's power armor was weakened.
They are strong. But they will fall to numbers just like anyone else. If they carry 200 bolt's for their boltgun at any one time, then they are probably good to kill 150 folks, before moving to hand to hand, so one marine vs a small town overrun with ork's, will die. No matter how powerfull, overwhelming numbers will beat down marines.
However, toe-to-toe, a marine is only outmatched by the very best of other armies. An ork warboss, an eldar farseer, e.x, will give them a good fight, but the rank and file of other armies, rarely can compare.
However, toe-to-toe, a marine is only outmatched by the very best of other armies. An ork warboss, an eldar farseer, e.x, will give them a good fight, but the rank and file of other armies, rarely can compare.
Funny how these non elites, ya know normal eldar troops or orks often kill dozens or more SM's then isn't it
Evileyes wrote: They are strong. But they will fall to numbers just like anyone else. If they carry 200 bolt's for their boltgun at any one time, then they are probably good to kill 150 folks, before moving to hand to hand, so one marine vs a small town overrun with ork's, will die. No matter how powerfull, overwhelming numbers will beat down marines.
However, toe-to-toe, a marine is only outmatched by the very best of other armies. An ork warboss, an eldar farseer, e.x, will give them a good fight, but the rank and file of other armies, rarely can compare.
An average ork nob should be about equal to the average marine. They don't have as fancy gear as marines but they're stronger and much tougher
Edit: An Eldar Exarch should be superior to a Marine
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:Fun tip: everyone google "Warhammer Movie Marines List" to see how powerful SPESS MEHREENS would be if their stats matched their fluff...
I knew it was just a matter of time since this would pop up.
Yes, I'd really like if people would actually read the WD article themselves instead of repeating this urban myth. There's a reason the list is called Movie Marines and not Real Marines or something, and it says it right at the start:
"Thankfully, most people understand the concept of dramatic license, an amusing little technique that involves exaggerating or ignoring facts, physical laws, and general plausability to keep things entertaining. Space Marines are embellished in fiction, where their heroism and invincibility are accentuated."
The article outright uses the background of an Imperial propaganda film starring Space Marines to alleviate the fears of the local population against alien invasion by showing the Astartes in an obviously overhyped way. Anyone who thinks that Movie Marines = Real Marines has never actually read the article, or worse, is so steeped in Marine bias that they subconsciously ignored half of what it said, including the fact that the list includes Stunt Doubles to be purchased at 10 points each. "Real" 40k warfare right there. Oh, and of course, the Movie Marine special rules are only available to the Movie Marine army, even if they're fighting other Space Marines or CSM...
The Movie Marines list is pretty much a self-own for anyone trying to argue the case of Space Marines being "truest" in their stories.
This is an excellent example of what I have posted earlier about the fact-twisting, though! And deliciously ironic, as this very same article also says "the use of dramatic license can be misleading to Space Marine players".
I would presume that it is a good list for recreating the majority of novels out there, though ...
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:Fun tip: everyone google "Warhammer Movie Marines List" to see how powerful SPESS MEHREENS would be if their stats matched their fluff...
I knew it was just a matter of time since this would pop up.
Yes, I'd really like if people would actually read the WD article themselves instead of repeating this urban myth. There's a reason the list is called Movie Marines and not Real Marines or something, and it says it right at the start:
"Thankfully, most people understand the concept of dramatic license, an amusing little technique that involves exaggerating or ignoring facts, physical laws, and general plausability to keep things entertaining. Space Marines are embellished in fiction, where their heroism and invincibility are accentuated."
The article outright uses the background of an Imperial propaganda film starring Space Marines to alleviate the fears of the local population against alien invasion by showing the Astartes in an obviously overhyped way. Anyone who thinks that Movie Marines = Real Marines has never actually read the article, or worse, is so steeped in Marine bias that they subconsciously ignored half of what it said, including the fact that the list includes Stunt Doubles to be purchased at 10 points each. "Real" 40k warfare right there. Oh, and of course, the Movie Marine special rules are only available to the Movie Marine army, even if they're fighting other Space Marines or CSM...
The Movie Marines list is pretty much a self-own for anyone trying to argue the case of Space Marines being "truest" in their stories.
This is an excellent example of what I have posted earlier about the fact-twisting, though! And deliciously ironic, as this very same article also says "the use of dramatic license can be misleading to Space Marine players".
I would presume that it is a good list for recreating the majority of novels out there, though ...
That and the Space Marine video game, where three marines single handily beat and entire ork WAGH...
They didn't take on the whole Waaagh. They made a surgical strike to take out the Warboss while the IG engaged the bulk of the Ork forces. Chaos came in a muddled the whole thing up a bit.
They still killed what felt like thousands upon thousand of Orcs with just three guys.*
I just finished the campaign last night. Sooo badass.
I'm actually tempted to say that the Space Marine game would be a good representation of Marines ... you'd just have to take away the recharging "armour shield" as well as the magical hitpoint regeneration.
Good game, though, even if it was a tad unintuitive at some points. Now I'm rocking the multiplayer as a Celestial Lion or an Emperor's Children Marine, respectively.
(*: I'm still a bit puzzled why a Captain would drop into a fight with one Sergeant and one random dude instead of leading his Company. Was that ever explained or are we supposed to "just roll with it"?)
Eh, it was probably so you could actually feel relevant like you were doing important stuff. Although I feel they could have had the rest of the Company drop down with you, have chatter over the comms, occasionally see a thunderhawk flyby or a Drop Pod or three crash down, maybe see assault marines flying about occasionally. Have 3-5 marines follow you around or randomly show up through the area you are fighting in. Be accompanied by a full command squad.
In Fluff/Novels - Depends on how the Author writes them, this actually goes for any race in the wh40k universe.
ex: Still remember that one book i read by bowden(Cadian blood i think) where a stormtrooper takes down a nurgle dreadnought by climbing infront of the sarcophagus and kills the astartes inside by blasting away into the vision slit, which is ironically rather believable if said vision slit didn't have any sort of protective glass or covering.
Grey Templar wrote:Eh, it was probably so you could actually feel relevant like you were doing important stuff. Although I feel they could have had the rest of the Company drop down with you, have chatter over the comms, occasionally see a thunderhawk flyby or a Drop Pod or three crash down, maybe see assault marines flying about occasionally. Have 3-5 marines follow you around or randomly show up through the area you are fighting in. Be accompanied by a full command squad.
Yeah, that would've been neat.
At least they had a bit of this during the assault on the Spire, where you also meet a bunch of Blood Ravens.
It was still cool. I just thought that maybe they've come up with an explanation that I just missed, like having your other squads get shot down or dispersed, basically botching the hot drop.
Man, I'm saddened that the game didn't get an expansion now.
Viersche wrote:ex: Still remember that one book i read by bowden(Cadian blood i think) where a stormtrooper takes down a nurgle dreadnought by climbing infront of the sarcophagus and kills the astartes inside by blasting away into the vision slit, which is ironically rather believable if said vision slit didn't have any sort of protective glass or covering.
Hmmh, if it's just glass - even sci-fi glass - it probably would not offer as much protection as the massive plates of armour around it? Even lasguns (at least in GW's books) have an explosive effect on the target surface, and Storm Troopers are using a high-powered version of them. And that's assuming that the warped Chaos version of a Dread still has this glass rather than just sporting an empty slit, as reckless as that may be.
I have to say, it's at least more believable than a guy managing to climb up a rampaging Dread without getting thrown off.
Hunterindarkness wrote: Sm power armor have been shot though by IG lasguns before. Its though but not like a comic book alloy. I will agree Sm's are more cap then wolverine, although either would murder a Sm one on one That may be mostly as comics tend to be even more OTT then 40k.
Wolverine probably. Cap maybe, it depends on how well he could use the edges of his shield to breach power armour. I personally doubt that something that can withstand a monomolecular chainsword will be easily penetrated though.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Again though, Black Library Law of Conservation of Armor. Obviously in that story, there was too much armor being used by the other side, so that Marine's power armor was weakened.
Yeah, it reminds me of Know No Fear, which I recently read. I laughed a bit when an Ultramarine took a bolter shell to the face, and only suffered a fethed up helmet and wounded lip, and proceeded to fire right through the Word Bearer's chestplate, lol. Abnett-grade plot armour too strong.
Void__Dragon wrote:Through the more structurally weak parts I guess.
Well, the Inquisitor RPG gave Astartes Power armour 3 points of ablative armour to the breastplate. This basically means it counts as having a protective rating of 13, though those ablative points will be stripped away by the very first three points of damage. What this means for lasguns is that even a well-placed shot to the chest (maximum of 12 damage) would fail to penetrate, but it would strip away enough armour to allow subsequent shots to punch through (as the chest armour is then reduced to 10 points, like on any other location).
That is, of course, assuming that one were to go by the rules in the Inquisitor RPG. It's just one of many interpretations - in FFG's RPGs, the combination of the armour and the owner's physical toughness makes him entirely invulnerable to lasguns (~20 resilience vs a maximum of 13 damage), unless you roll Crits. In fact, there a Space Marine even becomes invulnerable to ordinary bolters, and plasma headshots will do 2-3 points of damage (and it takes ~20 of these before they actually start to take injuries) ... that is, if you're lucky and roll the maximum amount.
Void__Dragon wrote:And... They have a resilience of 16, not 20, last I checked.
Yeah, you're right ... a value of 16 to 18 would indeed be more correct, assuming an average of TB 8 + AP 8 or 10 (for chest). You can get to 20 (and beyond) if you roll really well or purchase Toughness advances, but that's not what I would consider to be the norm.
Also, I actually think plasma guns are pretty awesome... against normal people, anyways. It's just that I really don't think Toughness working like a second layer of armour here (and in some cases even surpassing your actual armour) was such a good idea.
Pretty much my biggest gripe with their rules so far. Still love the d100 system tho.
Lynata wrote: Yeah, you're right ... a value of 16 to 18 would indeed be more correct, assuming an average of TB 8 + AP 8 or 10 (for chest). You can get to 20 (and beyond) if you roll really well or purchase Toughness advances, but that's not what I would consider to be the norm.
Also, I actually think plasma guns are pretty awesome... against normal people, anyways. It's just that I really don't think Toughness working like a second layer of armour here (and in some cases even surpassing your actual armour) was such a good idea.
Pretty much my biggest gripe with their rules so far. Still love the d100 system tho.
Well, I consider the listings in the bestiaries to be the "norm" personally.
I am mostly talking Dark Heresy core plasma guns, which were total bs.
And looking at the plasma weaponry in the DW rulebook, it has a pen of 8, and does 1d10+8 damage. All that right there by default would invalidate both the average Marine's power armour bonus (Unless it hits chest) and toughness bonus entirely, allowing you to make one to ten+ (Accounting for Righteous Fury) wounds in one shot. And that's the plasma pistol, lol. And doesn't take into account semi-auto fire. AND it doesn't take into account the errata, which does 1d10+10 damage. And the plasma gun does +12 and has pen 10.
A bolter is also entirely capable of going through power armour and wounding the Marine, with 1d10+9 with a pen of 4, and the ability to semi-auto fire three rounds.
As I said, "ordinary" weapons, not the souped up Astartes stuff. For some reason, FFG has chosen to differentiate between the weapons wielded by normal men and Space Marines - making the latter invulnerable to a lot of stuff the former can wield. Even Marine flamethrowers are burning hotter, apparently.
But I should have stressed the "ordinary" bit more, perhaps using a different term. Sorry for the confusion.
Don't listen to Void Dragon. This is the same guy that vehemently believes that you can't make a dodge or parry test when you run, even though one of the DH designers just said that you can on FFG's forum.
Evileyes wrote: They are strong. But they will fall to numbers just like anyone else. If they carry 200 bolt's for their boltgun at any one time, then they are probably good to kill 150 folks, before moving to hand to hand, so one marine vs a small town overrun with ork's, will die. No matter how powerfull, overwhelming numbers will beat down marines.
However, toe-to-toe, a marine is only outmatched by the very best of other armies. An ork warboss, an eldar farseer, e.x, will give them a good fight, but the rank and file of other armies, rarely can compare.
An average ork nob should be about equal to the average marine. They don't have as fancy gear as marines but they're stronger and much tougher
Edit: An Eldar Exarch should be superior to a Marine
Or they pick up a different gun, in the sixth space wolves book a squad runs out of bolter ammo and had already scavenged all they could so they picked up hellguns and the pack leader picked up an ig meltagun. They still had the sacred bolters strapped to the travel clip on their packs but if out of ammo I would hope other chapters arent stupid enough to not bend down and pick up a slugga
Evileyes wrote: They are strong. But they will fall to numbers just like anyone else. If they carry 200 bolt's for their boltgun at any one time, then they are probably good to kill 150 folks, before moving to hand to hand, so one marine vs a small town overrun with ork's, will die. No matter how powerfull, overwhelming numbers will beat down marines.
However, toe-to-toe, a marine is only outmatched by the very best of other armies. An ork warboss, an eldar farseer, e.x, will give them a good fight, but the rank and file of other armies, rarely can compare.
An average ork nob should be about equal to the average marine. They don't have as fancy gear as marines but they're stronger and much tougher
Yeah, but slower and dumber. Slow and dumb is a good way to get killed on a battlefield. Especially one with subdermally detonating rocket munitions flying around, fired by absurdly precise, aim assisted transhuman killing machines, lol.
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Lynata wrote:
(*: I'm still a bit puzzled why a Captain would drop into a fight with one Sergeant and one random dude instead of leading his Company. Was that ever explained or are we supposed to "just roll with it"?)
Coming into this one a bit late. I wasn't even aware the game still had a multiplayer presence really. I was rocking my Pre-heresy World Eaters scheme for Chaos.
As far as the plot, I think you just have to mulligan it. The game is an action shooter, which is typically a genre where the PC is the hero. Hard to be too heroic when you've got an entire army of other awesome dudes with you all the time, haha. I agree though, it might have made more sense for the hero to have been a Veteran Sergeant or something. But the story was pretty basic and archetypal. Stalwart leader with his grizzled and trusted veteran adviser, and then the eager rookie who knows the theory, but not the application.
I rather enjoyed the fact that the plot of Space Marine seemed to constantly poke fun at the Graham McNeill Theory of Ultramarining as Titus chastises whatever the rookie's name was for taking the Codex literally. My only problem with it, is that it still supports the Graham McNeill Theory of Ultramarining, where the Codex Astartes is some kind of ludicrous "Warfighting For Dummies" guidebook with prescribed solutions, rather than an exhaustive treatise on military theory on warfighting application like it is supposed to be according to the original fluff.
Once the topic shifted to Orks vs. Marines, I knew it was only a matter of time until Melissia joined the fray.
Anyway, this whole "they're as strong as they need to be" thing is nonsense. Anyone with a brain can use law of averages to figure out, roughly, what a Space Marine's capabilities are.
BlaxicanX wrote: Once the topic shifted to Orks vs. Marines, I knew it was only a matter of time until Melissia joined the fray.
Anyway, this whole "they're as strong as they need to be" thing is nonsense. Anyone with a brain can use law of averages to figure out, roughly, what a Space Marine's capabilities are.
That depends on how yo'ure using averages-- the mean can be distorted far easier by outliers than the median can, for example.
So if you want to view your average in favor of a stronger marine, you'd use a mean to calculate it, while if you wanted to view it as a weaker marine, you'd probably use a median. Statistics is funny like that.
And why should the law of averages dictate anything, anyways? With most products, we're not looking at material aiming to depict a consistent setting but simply to tell a cool story. Would we really want Space Marine capabilities to be defined by their popularity? That's a dangerous path to tread, although that probably depends on what each of us thinks of comicbook heroes versus a sense of realism in any given setting.
BlaxicanX wrote: Once the topic shifted to Orks vs. Marines, I knew it was only a matter of time until Melissia joined the fray.
Anyway, this whole "they're as strong as they need to be" thing is nonsense. Anyone with a brain can use law of averages to figure out, roughly, what a Space Marine's capabilities are.
That depends on how yo'ure using averages-- the mean can be distorted far easier by outliers than the median can, for example.
So if you want to view your average in favor of a stronger marine, you'd use a mean to calculate it, while if you wanted to view it as a weaker marine, you'd probably use a median. Statistics is funny like that.
I don't know what the difference is between a mean and a median.
Lynata wrote: They still killed what felt like thousands upon thousand of Orcs with just three guys.*
I just finished the campaign last night. Sooo badass.
I'm actually tempted to say that the Space Marine game would be a good representation of Marines ... you'd just have to take away the recharging "armour shield" as well as the magical hitpoint regeneration.
Good game, though, even if it was a tad unintuitive at some points. Now I'm rocking the multiplayer as a Celestial Lion or an Emperor's Children Marine, respectively.
(*: I'm still a bit puzzled why a Captain would drop into a fight with one Sergeant and one random dude instead of leading his Company. Was that ever explained or are we supposed to "just roll with it"?)
Don't SMs have regenerating health in GW fluff?
Ya for better or worse the video games always feel more realistic then any novel. The balance feels about right in SM. Like how a knob is stronger then you, but you can beat him with cunning and skill.
To obtain a Mean, you add them up and divide them by the number of numbers-- what is traditionally thoguht of as the primary definition of "average" amongst the US schools. The "mean" average of this set of numbers is ~5.3-- adding all of the numbers together, and then dividing the result by sixteen, the total number of numbers.
The Median is obtained in a slightly different way. The Median is the midpoint in a frequency distribution of the values-- that is, when they are arranged like so: 1 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 7 7 8 9 10 As there are an even number of numbers, you take the two middle numbers, add them, divide by two. In this case, it is five plus five divided by two, or five. The median of this number set is, as a result, five.
But the reason why one would make use of a median over a mean is the important part. Let's take the number set and add an outlier: 1 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 7 7 8 9 10 1000
The Mean for this new set of numbers is ~63.8. This number, however, is not really representative of most of the numbers in the set, now is it? Most of the numbers are between one and ten, and no where near 63. Thus, the Median is more useful. In this case, it is still five, as that is the middle number of the frequency distribution.
Thus, in the presence of outliers, the median is much more useful than the mean, as it is much less effected by outliers than the mean. Both, however, are considered "averages". And thus, if you wanted to calculate an Astartes' strength and have the result be higher, knowing that there are more outliers in the upper end of things, you'd use a "mean" average, whereas if you wanted a lower average, you'd use the "median".
So, let's take the examples of Marines being pretty weak (the dawn of war books took this route, likely unintentionally, and arguably any of the Guard books take this route since the guardsmen always end up killing a marine or five at some point in the series), versus the ones being very, very strong (several mairne books where marines are able to tear orks in half or rip open tanks without a power fist exist). Most books with Marines don't really go in to great deal about their strengths, however, and you're left with the feeling that Marines are strong, but you have no clue how strong they are without their power armor.
There are more books that have them be obscenely strong than weak, however. Would you prefer to lean on the side of "Marines can flip over tanks on their own!" (taking the average, trying to include as many books that exaggerate Astartes strength as possible) or "Marines are stronger than any non-bodybuilder human, but require power armor to accomplish the more legendary feats of strength" (taking the median, going with the more common books that tend to be less illustrative of the Astartes' strength)?
I go with the latter, myself. It fits in with most novels, and also fits in with the various RPGs as well (even Deathwatch, which is basically Movie Marines: The RPG, didn't have Marines be that much stronger than humans, although they did usually hit a bit harder in melee). And it suits the fluff of a strength four creature quite nicely.
Lynata wrote: And why should the law of averages dictate anything, anyways? With most products, we're not looking at material aiming to depict a consistent setting but simply to tell a cool story. Would we really want Space Marine capabilities to be defined by their popularity? That's a dangerous path to tread, although that probably depends on what each of us thinks of comicbook heroes versus a sense of realism in any given setting.
I demand an explanation for why this post, and only this post, of yours appears to have been made in the USA, and how the rest of your posts were made in Ireland.
So, let's take the examples of Marines being pretty weak (the dawn of war books took this route, likely unintentionally, and arguably any of the Guard books take this route since the guardsmen always end up killing a marine or five at some point in the series), versus the ones being very, very strong (several mairne books where marines are able to tear orks in half or rip open tanks without a power fist exist). Most books with Marines don't really go in to great deal about their strengths, however, and you're left with the feeling that Marines are strong, but you have no clue how strong they are without their power armor.
There are more books that have them be obscenely strong than weak, however. Would you prefer to lean on the side of "Marines can flip over tanks on their own!" (taking the average, trying to include as many books that exaggerate Astartes strength as possible) or "Marines are stronger than any non-bodybuilder human, but require power armor to accomplish the more legendary feats of strength" (taking the median, going with the more common books that tend to be less illustrative of the Astartes' strength)?
I go with the latter, myself. It fits in with most novels, and also fits in with the various RPGs as well (even Deathwatch, which is basically Movie Marines: The RPG, didn't have Marines be that much stronger than humans, although they did usually hit a bit harder in melee). And it suits the fluff of a strength four creature quite nicely.
In Deathwatch, the average Marine, per the rules, can lift 1,350 kilograms. Or about 1.5 tons.
The strongest humans would fall well short of that.
Also, bodybuilders? While stronger than the average man, they aren't nearly as strong as they look.
I find the bodybuilder-analogy strange, I would have gone for strongmen personally. That's more like the Space Marines, but even they are well short of the Space Marines.
No Sm in deathwatch is "average", They are damned skilled and above the cut on skill, toughness and power. They are top tier Sm, not line cannon fodder.
For deathwatch it depends. Graham McNeil established a dangerous precedence with them sending Uriel Ventris to the Deathwatch to get him our of the hair of the Ultramarines. That's the exemplar chapter, and they seem to send away people being too liberal with the Codex Astartes to the deathwatch.
Hunterindarkness wrote: No Sm in deathwatch is "average", They are damned skilled and above the cut on skill, toughness and power. They are top tier Sm, not line cannon fodder.
You misunderstand.
the "average" Space Marine, according to the bestiaries, Deathwatch or not, has a strength of 45, and a toughness of 45.
They also have unnatural strength and toughness x2, which doubles their bonuses.
So, they have a TB of 8, and a SB of 8, granting us a combined total of 16.
Gotcha, I do not own the DWRPG myself but do on All of RT and a good bit of DH.
The unnatural str will do that. That being said, that is not all that far out of the range that some humans can reach under the system. Which would be 12-14 total, although that be max and one freaking monster human.
However, I do wonder, is that counting the armor str boost? As it really should be higher then 45, I can make a human start at 45 in RT,( No Unnatural str though). I have a player in RT right now at rank 3( about rank 1 DW, I think) with standard PA with a str of 75( which can go up a wee bit more)
No, the armour str boost brings the total up to a total of 18. Sufficient to press 2,700 kilograms, aka about three tons.
Yeah, two more points nearly doubled the effective lifting strength.
Similarly, in DH, assuming best possible strength and toughness rolls for a feral world character (Who frankly, IMO, have the implication of subtle mutations or adaptions, like Void World characters), and using the Ascension supplement to allow two more characteristic advance, you could end up with a strength and toughness of 75. Meaning a total net bonus towards lifting of 14.
This allows your character to press 675 kilograms, or about 1,500 pounds, aka about a thousand pounds less than a Marine. Don't get me wrong, that's ridiculously strong by IRL human standards, I honestly don't think a human being has ever lifted that much, but that is of course, the best possible result you could get, the absolute peak of human capability in the system that isn't derived through augmenting yourself, via gak like bionics, becoming a Vindicare Assassin, or psychic powers/sorcery (Hammerhand too strong).
A Space Marine though? Assuming best-possible results, it is possible to have a character capable of lifting so much weight the standard lifting chart has no rules for it, lol.
Oh yeah, I agree that is high for a human. I just thought it sounded low for a Sm with armor, to damned low. Honestly about 3 tons sounds about right in armor.
Hunterindarkness wrote: Oh yeah, I agree that is high for a human. I just thought it sounded low for a Sm with armor, to damned low. Honestly about 3 tons sounds about right in armor.
3 tons sounds like way to much. If a marine could lift 3 tons then an Ork nob would almost be able to lift a trukk over his head since they are stronger than a marine. If marines could lift 3 tons then Warbosses would be able to lift at least 6-8 tons and that sounds silly
Hunterindarkness wrote: Oh yeah, I agree that is high for a human. I just thought it sounded low for a Sm with armor, to damned low. Honestly about 3 tons sounds about right in armor.
3 tons sounds like way to much. If a marine could lift 3 tons then an Ork nob would almost be able to lift a trukk over his head since they are stronger than a marine. If marines could lift 3 tons then Warbosses would be able to lift at least 6-8 tons and that sounds silly
We are talking in armor and in a game where humans without armor can if built right lift 1000kg, humans in PA( Non SMPA at that) can lift 1.5 easy enough) . A I might be off here as I said before I do not own DW, but the Nob and the warboss should both have higer str and toughness and both be unnatural. So yes a Nob or warboss could lift more then 3 tons. The stompa if I recall was a scary thing of death.
nomotog wrote:Don't SMs have regenerating health in GW fluff?
Over time, sure. Just like any human has regenerating health, just a bit boosted I'd presume. But still not within a matter of seconds.
What happens in a matter of seconds is that their blood would clog, in essence stopping any bleeding. But that doesn't magically make a piece of blown-off flesh or a limb that was hacked off reappear. They wouldn't need bionics otherwise, or have faces as grizzled and scarred as that of the Sergeant.
It's a gameplay mechanic, just like your two companion Marines are completely invincible and will never die in combat, regardless of how much they get shot or pummeled by their opponents.
Fortunately, it rarely gets that obvious in the middle of the game itself, since combat is fast and most of the time you'll still have an enemy or two that focus on you anyways.
Void__Dragon wrote:I demand an explanation for why this post, and only this post, of yours appears to have been made in the USA, and how the rest of your posts were made in Ireland.
Proxies. Depending on whether I'm at home, at work, or at home and tunneling my posts can show up with four different flags here.
I've been watching Netflix at the time, but only Netflix US has the "Sliders" show.
Hunterindarkness wrote:The unnatural str will do that.
Unnaturals were such a silly idea. I'm still surprised how anyone could've thought flat multipliers would work out nicely in any game system. Not FFG's fault, though; this was a holdover from Black Industries.
So glad they changed it in recent games, although it's gotten to a point where I think they could just drop it completely as a trait and simply add +X to base characteristics generation.
In any case, I think it's worse for Toughness than for Strength, as it basically works like a secondary layer of armour. Your naked body can actually become tougher than the armour you wear.
This can really become an issue even for normal well-equipped humans in DH etc., when the GM suddenly noticed some people in the party can no longer be injured by certain weapons, but for DW the Unnaturals inflated the problem even further. It's why they needed Hordes to make mooks any threat at all, for as soon as you are in a Horde your gun can magically double or triple its damage potential. This in turn also resulted in lots of GMs posting about so many dice having the potential to result in their players either not getting hurt at all or being roflstomped if the Horde rolls very good. Their high resilience and the range of possible results from rolling 2-5 d10 doesn't seem to work out very well.
I'm sure it is still a fun game (I'm only getting to know it "for reals" just now), one only shouldn't take it too seriously or overanalyse its representation of physics. The fastest way to kill a Hive Tyrant used to be to just pick him up and throw him in the air, then watch it get instakilled by falling damage. The "Movie Marines" analogy is a good comparison, actually. You're a small group of larger-than-life heroes who go kicking an entire Tyranid Fleet in the balls and stuff like that.
Oddly enough, the unnatural multiplier didn't really help make Marines stronger outside of combat... because strength tests almost invariably ignore the strength modifier. So a Marine with strength fourty and strength bonus eight is not actually able to do feats of strength any better than a human with strength fourty and strength bonus four.
Either a guy is stronger, or he isn't. If it's a matter of martial ability, give him a bonus to WS.
If it were up to me, I'd prolly just give them +40 Strength and +20 Toughness to their base stats.
Or +40 to both and change how Toughness works, moving away from the "it's like armour" and going more towards the Inquisitor RPG - where it reduced the grade of injuries, but did not prevent them entirely.
It's also the reason why unnatural intelligence was so useless. :/ Was able to get a character to x4 int bonus (resulting in her intelligence bonus being in the high 20-low 30\s), but what did it matter?
So, let's take the examples of Marines being pretty weak (the dawn of war books took this route, likely unintentionally, and arguably any of the Guard books take this route since the guardsmen always end up killing a marine or five at some point in the series), versus the ones being very, very strong (several mairne books where marines are able to tear orks in half or rip open tanks without a power fist exist). Most books with Marines don't really go in to great deal about their strengths, however, and you're left with the feeling that Marines are strong, but you have no clue how strong they are without their power armor.
There are more books that have them be obscenely strong than weak, however. Would you prefer to lean on the side of "Marines can flip over tanks on their own!" (taking the average, trying to include as many books that exaggerate Astartes strength as possible) or "Marines are stronger than any non-bodybuilder human, but require power armor to accomplish the more legendary feats of strength" (taking the median, going with the more common books that tend to be less illustrative of the Astartes' strength)?
I go with the latter, myself. It fits in with most novels, and also fits in with the various RPGs as well (even Deathwatch, which is basically Movie Marines: The RPG, didn't have Marines be that much stronger than humans, although they did usually hit a bit harder in melee). And it suits the fluff of a strength four creature quite nicely.
Strangely enough, i think that the book with the most OTT marine power is actually a guard book. In "Kill Team", a single freaking deathwatch marine literally rape an entire Tau army, slaying a ton of fire warriors before proceeding to take down an host of Crisis and Broadside with a single damned bolter ( the OTTness reach an extreme when it is clearly described how he take down a broadside with 3 (THREE!!!!) bolter shots)
I don't play the RPGs, but you could look at it as a differences in muscle strength and muscle endurance. Plus, if could also be a factor of ligament and joint strength. After all, you could have the muscle to lift something, but not the joint strength to actually complete it. Was an interesting tidbit in some old, possibly long forgotten game I owned as a kid about how you could imbue a bionic arm with ridiculous strength, but if you tried to lift a car over your head, you'd just end up with it painfully tearing free of your body because the anchors to the meat and skeleton couldn't support it.
Or, you just accept that wargames will never actually accurately depict real life (or, in the case of 40K, imaginary real life), and you just accept or house-rule the inconsistencies. Ultimately, if you play any character too long in the Warhammer RPGs, they become invincible and put all the enemies in the game to shame. It was like that even in 1st Edition WFRPG. I can only imagine it becomes ridiculous in Deathwatch. But, then again, Space Marines were never going to be good PCs for RPGs. Without stretching the boundaries of the setting, Deathwatch seems to me like it's roll playing, not role playing.
The tabletop game is the worst reference to use, since everything is judged in division by sixths (blocks of 16.6%, lol). So the gap between and attribute of 3 and 5 is huge.
Oddly enough... no. Orks are startlingly fast for their size, and are quite intelligent when it comes to anything war-related.
The primary advantage Astartes have is training and equpment. Ork bodies are actually probably superior to Astartes bodies.
Startlingly fast? I can see how you'd get that, with a base I of 2 on the tabletop, or the impressive 30 Agi in the 40KRPGs.
I mean, I guess it's startling that a giant lumbering ork Warboss is as fast as a normal Marine. Saying something is "fast for its size" is entirely relative. That still leaves them significantly slower than a Space Marine. As being quite intelligent at war related topics, if that's so, it's never been demonstrated in the fluff and certainly isn't present in any of the game rules. Back to 2nd Edition when the armies had Strategy Ratings for their commanders, even Ghazkull was a 3, where a generic Space Marine commander was 5 and Calgar was 6. They're crafty and tenacious, but they're not winning wars though skill and subterfuge, lol.
As far as their bodies being superior, eh. Like I said, a slight advantage in durability is completely lost if you cannot close to the distance needed to exert those attributes.
Oddly enough... no. Orks are startlingly fast for their size, and are quite intelligent when it comes to anything war-related.
The primary advantage Astartes have is training and equpment. Ork bodies are actually probably superior to Astartes bodies.
Startlingly fast? I can see how you'd get that, with a base I of 2 on the tabletop, or the impressive 30 Agi in the 40KRPGs.
And the veteran Marines of Deathwatch (and they all are, there are no newbies in Deathwatch) only have an average agility of 40 in the RPGs, meaning most human and many ork combatants are going to be as fast or faster than what are supposed to be highly experienced, veteran marines. Indeed, humans have a higher upper limit to agility (or any stat, really) than Marines do, using DH/Ascension and various supplements. So the tabletop RPG comparison doesn't work. At all.
Furthermore, Orks move at the same speed as Marines on the field of battle in tabletop, making your argument regarding the tabletop wargaming incoherent at best-- I think the only way Marines get fleet is through a specific special character, right? Initiative is an abstract and incoherent concept, and does not represent the ability to charge across the battlefield.
My argument about Orks being startlingly fast for their size comes from the actual lore, where they are described as such by humans fighting them. Orks are as tall as humans... while hunched over. And they're considerably meatier. That's just the common Ork boy-- the average Ork, if he bothered to stand up straight, would likely be about the same as that of a Marine. And yet when powered by a WAAAGH! shout, they can charge across the battlefield with the same speed as an Eldar, whom actually ARE supposed to be faster than a Marine or human.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The tabletop game is the worst reference to use, since everything is judged in division by sixths (blocks of 16.6%, lol). So the gap between and attribute of 3 and 5 is huge.
Just as a small addendum regarding that opinion: The TT indeed doesn't work at all for gauging the exact capability of any singular character or item - but I would argue it is the best reference for getting a rough idea of what is better than something else, and what is supposed to be pretty damn close. After all, the TT is the only truly "neutral" representation of the setting (at least as envisioned by GW), as it is still the only product that incorporates a ruleset meant to play any army against any other army, with everyone using all the same basics, rather than being geared towards a specific faction or sub-faction.
Anything else has a very high chance of being biased, primarily because someone will always be the protagonist. And something that is biased can never be a better reference.
If you listen to Dan Abnett's interview about the Space Marine movie, he even mentions that this is why Black Library was founded as a distinct sub-department from GW rather than publishing the novels under the main GW label. The studio wanted to establish a clear border between the neutral rules and the fantastic tales that may often require an author to suspend the neutrality of the world in favour of telling an epic story where the hero (almost) always wins.
Of course, even GW's world is just one version of the 41st millennium. But it stands apart from most others by being somewhat more balanced in terms of preferential treatment, having special rules, badass heroes, etc for everyone rather than just the "hero of the hour".
I suppose the Dawn of War games could make a similar argument, though, as they are supposed to treat each army equally as well.
In the outcast dead novel an unarmed, unarmoured world eater sergeant kills an armed and armoured custodian in hand to hand combat, survives crashing out of the sky in a transport ship, takes a boltgun shot through the side, but is killed by a plasma shot to the chest. Another 2 world eater marines armoured in steel armour and one of them armed with an unpowered custodian spear head kill another custodian, but are also killed in the process./spoiler], an unarmed, unarmoured world eater sergeant kills an armed and armoured custodian in hand to hand combat, survives crashing out of the sky in a transport ship, takes a boltgun shot through the side, but is killed by a plasma shot to the chest. Another 2 world eater marines armoured in steel armour and one of them armed with an unpowered custodian spear head kill another custodian, but are also killed in the process.
Neutral, sure. Accurate or best? That's absolutely laughable. Again, it's a representation where things can only be determined in blocks of 16.6%.
It's the simplest, and easiest way to play a game in the 40K universe. It's been incredibly streamlined to be played in as short of time as possible, and continuously redesigned to drive sales of different kinds of miniatures in greater quantities.
"Best reference." There aren't enough laughing smiley images ever devised to respond to that, so I'll stick to
And read what you read again. "Suspend the neutrality". I think you're misunderstanding that phrase on the kind of disastrous level the Jedi did when they didn't think about what Anakin bringing "Balance to the Force" meant.
I've spelled it out many times. And I know you won't listen, so I'll provide it for the others so they aren't fooled by you. 40K is designed to sell plastic toys and create an evenly balanced, playable, profitable game. If the Space Marines in the game matched the kinds of capabilities the fluff gives them, you'd only have to buy 10 or 15 of them, and your opponent would have to buy dozens of models. This creates several problems.
1: Space Marine armies would be even more popular, and they'd sell less total models.
2: There would be significant barriers to entry on non-Space Marine armies. They'd be significantly more expensive, and time consuming to collect.
3: The game looks less epic when there are less models on the table. 3rd Edition very cleverly tweaked points costs and streamlined rules so that anywhere from 50% to 100% more models could be fielded and take half as much time to play with.
So yeah, any idea where the 40K tabletop game is the "best" way to look at the 40K universe is funny as hell. It's NOTGW's world. Their world exists very clearly. It's the one where Space Marine Chapters conquer entire worlds, and small numbers of Space Marines defeat vast armies.
Then, they then have a game where you can play evenly balanced, terrain neutral battles in a rough approximation of that world.
As far as Melissia not understanding my argument and thinking "fast" just refers to how quickly somebody can run... Well, that's no surprise, lol.
I often went by the notion that the non-Space Marines often were represented by ten or more bodies for each model myself. That can explain the stats somewhat. But truth be told I always figured two armies meeting on equal base a tad stupid, think of it, a Dark Eldar Archon fighting fairly, a Space Wolf fighting fairly and the Eldars are very well known for their use of fair fights.
And I have mentioned this before (yet apparently you did not listen), but Space Marine fluff depicts them with a wide range of capabilities. Most notably because most of their fluff - even limited to GW - is actually myths and legends, which a number of people seem to have an issue to discern from the neutral info. Info such as Codex fluff description for Astartes power armour actually reflecting the TT values quite well, just as it reflects the values in GW's Inquisitor RPG.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Their world exists very clearly. It's the one where Space Marine Chapters conquer entire worlds, and small numbers of Space Marines defeat vast armies.
You must not have read much of GW's fluff, have you?
Marine casualties on Armageddon, clear references for other elite armies pwning Astartes, we even have a Primarch equaling 100 Marines to 1000 Guardsmen. Of course, I'm not sure what you've read - but given the other material I'm guessing it must have been one of those legends, or perhaps the Marines in your example have fought some random PDF or feral natives.
Your statement scratches the surface of what the Space Marines are about. I'd suggest you dig deeper.
As far as a low model count for viable armies is concerned, I would say that Grey Knights can come pretty close to what you claim GW would never do.
Beaviz81 wrote:But truth be told I always figured two armies meeting on equal base a tad stupid, think of it, a Dark Eldar Archon fighting fairly, a Space Wolf fighting fairly and the Eldars are very well known for their use of fair fights.
This is true, and why I think Epic40k would be a better representation of most fights as far as tactics are concerned. What you have in 40k is Space Marines not pwning as much not because their abilities are not accurately reflected, but rather because they are not fighting in a situation where they could bring their full strength to bear. It's a close assault shock army trying to storm an objective like a bunch of IG infantry. In a scenario closer to their tactics, they would likely face less opposition and thus be even more dangerous. Basically, the Marines were caught with their pants down and now have to weather the storm using just the edge they have, rather than also having the tactical advantage that comes with usually being able to pick their fights.
So every battle is about Space Marines making huge mistakes? Wow fun and new perspective for me. I preferred the first thing I wrote, about every model representing 10 or more figures. But this is fun to think about hehe, and explain the bolts sticking out of the head of the average Space Marine Sergeant.
Melissia wrote: Oddly enough, the unnatural multiplier didn't really help make Marines stronger outside of combat... because strength tests almost invariably ignore the strength modifier. So a Marine with strength fourty and strength bonus eight is not actually able to do feats of strength any better than a human with strength fourty and strength bonus four.
Unnatural Strength doubles the degrees of success you have when you roll, so it does help a bit.
Beaviz81 wrote:So every battle is about Space Marines making huge mistakes?
Not necessarily - it could also be the Marines simply having to "make do" because the situation demands it. For example, having to hold a certain position against numerically dangerously superior forces until reinforcements arrive. More heroic, and perhaps more to your liking?
Or it could simply be a small segment of a larger battle. The table is fairly small, and who's to say that this isn't just one of several fights? Maybe your guys just got the toughest job.
There is a number of possible explanations for why the Space Marines on the table are used as they are, but I thought that Marine players would agree that the way they attack in the TT isn't very reflective of their standard tactics.
Beaviz81 wrote:I preferred the first thing I wrote, about every model representing 10 or more figures.
Well, the same thing could probably be said about IG players. Which army shows up with only 1-2 artillery pieces? The game admittedly doesn't translate well when it comes to a tactical representation of about half (or more!) of the armies, which is why I came up with the above ways to sorta explain it.
Beaviz81 wrote:the bolts sticking out of the head of the average Space Marine Sergeant
Hmmh, looking at the various Tactical Squad Sergeants, it doesn't seem to be that common. Wouldn't have to mean much, anyways. I'm certainly not saying they fall like flies. Most of the time, they'd deploy in battles with a bigger advantage than they have in the TT.
In any case, I think it's worse for Toughness than for Strength, as it basically works like a secondary layer of armour. Your naked body can actually become tougher than the armour you wear. This can really become an issue even for normal well-equipped humans in DH etc., when the GM suddenly noticed some people in the party can no longer be injured by certain weapons
Heh heh heh, this is the case for my Arbites in our DH campaign. He's AP9 and TB5, so lasguns and autoguns don't even scratch him.
I'm basically fearless in any engagement until we start doing more dangerous missions.
Holy gak. Did you get your hands on Best Quality power armour? Well played.
Your GM could probably use Manstopper rounds - but depending on what the rest of your guys wear, it could be a bit dangerous for the rest of your guys just for a small chance to reduce your hitpoints by 1-2...
Lynata wrote: Holy gak. Did you get your hands on Best Quality power armour? Well played.
Your GM could probably use Manstopper rounds - but depending on what the rest of your guys wear, it could be a bit dangerous for the rest of your guys just for a small chance to reduce your hitpoints by 1-2...
Tell them to gear up!
He's an Arbites.
He's using Carapace Armour and a big ass shield (Forget the name) from IIRC the Book of Judgment.
Strangely enough, i think that the book with the most OTT marine power is actually a guard book. In "Kill Team", a single freaking deathwatch marine literally rape an entire Tau army, slaying a ton of fire warriors before proceeding to take down an host of Crisis and Broadside with a single damned bolter ( the OTTness reach an extreme when it is clearly described how he take down a broadside with 3 (THREE!!!!) bolter shots)
This is not that much OTT, Deathwatch are all elites. And Tau are really not match for Astartes anyway, in Zeist unmanned several Chapters literally stopped entire Tau main 3'rd sphere invasion force and push them back to where they begun the offensive.
And why is is so strange that he was able to kill broad side in 3 shots? if even one hit him in the head he would be done for.
At least this is more realistic then certain Fire Warrior who single handedly killed Lord of Change and entire Space Marine Warband ( Daemon Princes and Titan included ).
For what it's worth, I would consider any one character who could single-handedly deal with an entire army as an overhyped product of faction bias, regardless of whether it's a Tau Fire Warrior or an Astartes Space Marine.
Why are we comparing the silly exploits of a single Astartes in some bolterporn novel against what a strike force of about a dozen Chapters with superior mobility has achieved?
And come on now, a single Space Marine wouldn't even carry enough ammunition to deal with an entire Tau battleforce on his own.
We don't know the details, maybe he killed half of them in close combat with Chainsword. And maybe Tau only had those Fire Warriors and few broadsides with no Railguns around. And maybe that was not an army but a strike force, medium-core strike force.
And I combined with Zeist because out there one marine was outnumbered by thousands of Tau and they still won against them,
I agree on ammunition, marine can carry how much again? 80 - 100 bolt shells?( 20 per clip if I remember correctly, and they would have few clips with them )
While I only flicked through 'Kill Team' , I do remember one scene in which a Deathwatch Marine takes out a Crisis suit (possibly more, I'm not sure), but it seemed pretty clear that without the Imperial Guard support he would've been taken down. He (in this scene, at least) attacked with the element of surprise (although his armour could withstand some burst cannon fire, so take that as you will (I think it was artificer armour)) while in a city, so there was nothing like an army they were directly fighting (again, in this particular scene).
Yeah the Guants ghosts last book goes OTT with Sm's as well, it has three more or less killing hundreds. Really the way i see it a single Sm alone might be worth 10 or 15 men, less if they are well trained and well geared. They will never go and take out whole cities with anything apporching effective defense.
Hell, with how devastating Imperial Guard ordnance is, they likely would find that directly assaulting an Imperial Guard position to be almost suicide with their numbers, and they'd be FORCED to try a different route (IE ambush, drop pod assault, etc), because they'd be massacred otherwise.
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Void__Dragon wrote: Despite the fact that they pretty regularly do that in the fluff?
No, a single Marine does not regularly doe that in the lore. Stop making gak up.
Yeah in lore they attack cities or small defensive position in groups of 20 or 100 or something. They do not send in groups of 1-3 on what would be insta death.
Void__Dragon wrote: Well it is a good thing that they typically do enter the battlefield past enemy lines to cut the heart out of the enemy, lol.
It depends on the writer whether or not they do this. Many times, they make incompetent tactical decisions because the writer thought it sounded cool and just piled on the plot armor.
In a straight up fight, a competently led regiment of Imperial Guard will turn a few squads of Marines in to corpses (or bloody gore, depending on the regiment) quite quickly. The Marines' only hope to win is to make sure it never becomes a straight-up fight, and when written correctly, this is invariably the case. It doesn't matter if you're a marine or a guardsman if you're hit in the face with a krak grenade/missile, or a lascannon, or a meltagun, or anything else of that nature-- and killing a marine lowers the strength of an Astartes force far more than killing a dozen Guardsmen does for a regiment of Guard, making the enemy force that much easier to face off.
But a competently led (read: written) Marine force knows that, and tries to avoid it.
Brother Captain Alexander wrote:And I combined with Zeist because out there one marine was outnumbered by thousands of Tau and they still won against them
In the campaign, but not in the battle/s. The Codex specifically points out how the Marines used their mobility and shock strike capabilities to stike at lightly defended targets, gradually reducing the Tau force world by world and weakening critical positions elsewhere as the enemy commander had to reposition his forces. If they would have had a base of their own to defend, the campaign may well have ended differently.
Compare this to Armageddon, where, after the First Season of Fire, lots of Marine Chapters simply departed because the current stage of the war - basically lots of trench fighting - didn't suit them, the corresponding WD article specifically mentioning the Marines' inability to bring their mobility advantage to bear.
Brother Captain Alexander wrote:I agree on ammunition, marine can carry how much again? 80 - 100 bolt shells?( 20 per clip if I remember correctly, and they would have few clips with them )
20-30 rounds (at least as per the 3E rulebook), though I'm leaning towards assuming 30- for Marines and 20+ for normal people, as both the gun and the magazine will likely be a bit smaller, also missing out one or two of the optional gadgets and/or the reinforced housing.
The question is how many magazines would they carry ...
But it's safe to say that it wouldn't be that much. Both Marines and bolters are meant for quick and dirty up-close-in-your-face combat, overpowering the enemy in one quick stroke and then departing rather than getting bogged down in a prolonged fight where you run dry of ammo.
Hunterindarkness wrote:Yeah in lore they attack cities or small defensive position in groups of 20 or 100 or something.
And said 20-100 will usually go straight for the enemy leader in the hopes of disabling the opposing force from the head down, rather than slowly waltzing through the streets taking on thousands of defenders, like the Guard would do it. That's the best thing about the Space Marines, even more important than their augmentation and armour - they can simply circumvent an inconvenient obstacle.
But I suppose it also depends on the nature of the defenders - both how much the loss of leadership would affect them, as well as what their defensive capabilities (experience? equipment?) are. Plus, what Melissia said about the writers.
Void__Dragon wrote: Well it is a good thing that they typically do enter the battlefield past enemy lines to cut the heart out of the enemy, lol.
It depends on the writer whether or not they do this. Many times, they make incompetent tactical decisions because the writer thought it sounded cool and just piled on the plot armor.
In a straight up fight, a competently led regiment of Imperial Guard will turn a few squads of Marines in to corpses (or bloody gore, depending on the regiment) quite quickly. The Marines' only hope to win is to make sure it never becomes a straight-up fight, and when written correctly, this is invariably the case. It doesn't matter if you're a marine or a guardsman if you're hit in the face with a krak grenade/missile, or a lascannon, or a meltagun, or anything else of that nature-- and killing a marine lowers the strength of an Astartes force far more than killing a dozen Guardsmen does for a regiment of Guard, making the enemy force that much easier to face off.
But a competently led (read: written) Marine force knows that, and tries to avoid it.
Your stance appears pretty reliant on the notion that Marines would just footslog their way into battle, IMHO.
Void__Dragon wrote: Your stance appears pretty reliant on the notion that Marines would just footslog their way into battle, IMHO.
Which might be a valid objection if Black Library's writers were as competent as you in commanding Space Marines.
With a few rare exceptions, BL writers are not very good at military anything.
This is true, most BL I have read the Sm battle plan is " Walk in a straight line into oncoming fire while being gods and then kill everything that moves as Gods need no tactics"
I think it's at least partially the desire to show some over-the-top action where a couple dudes manage to pull off the impossible, like in every second Hollywood movie. A "proper" Marine assault might be regarded as boring in that it would be (a) over too fast and (b) not feel as if the heroes were actually challenged by those impossible odds the reader wants them to overcome.
It only becomes old if this is 90% of the novels we get to read, and dangerous if people begin to take that sort of stuff serious.
In all honesty, this boils down to whomever is doing the writing more than anything else, and from what perspective. We have stories of Space Marines that are just big Guardsmen for all intents and purposes, and stories where the Space Marines are Demigods, nigh mythical divine entities of terrible power. That said, there's some baseline, and a lot of the stuff you read about Space Marine power level, like a single marine being able to slaughter a thousand modern troops in a city, is based on daydreams and fanwank and little else, even by GW's standards.
Now, if you start using general comparisons available in most codex fluff, it usually equates one Space Marine being equal to 10 to 12 guardsmen in a straight up fight. We have Rogal Dorn's quote about how many other troops he'd need without any Space Marines and the current C:SM to give us those numbers. That means, on average, a Space Marine chapter, massed for battle, is probably not much more than the equal of an Imperial Guard regiment or two, which isn't very impressive. SM's aren't invulnerable to small arms, they're just highly resistant to them, and they're certainly vulnerable to commonly issued infantry heavy/special weapons.
From any realistic standpoint, the Adeptus Astartes, in their entirety, has the military value of about 8 hours of galactic Imperial Guard recruiting given the codex available comparisons and numbers given for Space Marines and the Imperial Guard. The Space Marines could literally disappear and the Imperial Guard would absorb the loss of the military capability, force multilpliers, and reaction speed in a few weeks at worst.
There are *billions* of IG regiments. That means for each Space Marine Chapter, there are literally *thousands* of IG regiments, composed of anywhere from 5-100 thousand troops and dozens if not hundreds of armored fighting vehicles, and an accompanying Imperial Navy component of similar size. So for each Space Marine, you're really looking at several tens of millions of guardsmen and navy personnel for each Space Marine.
The Space Marines work because GW says they do. They always show up, somehow always know the enemy's entire order of battle, where all their command centers are located, and how best to engage them, without any sort of intelligence apparatus and are able to get that information before they even engage, and are always able to achieve insertion without any major hiccup, never run into any heavy ordnance that could swat them all despite it commonly being employed en-masse, and always manage to heroically vanquish the enemy, all without any nod or mention of logistics in any way, shape or form. Not to mention lacking any ability to hold extensive areas of ground, very small numbers of air and air defense assets, practically nonexistent artillery (the biggest killer in every conflict in recent human memory), or that casualties taken take decades to replace, etc. Outside of a Fantasy setting with lots of handwaving, they just don't work. But this is a Fantasy setting with lots of handwaving.
TL;DR 40k is Space Fantasy, not SciFi, and Space Marine power level is more depending on author and story viewpoint than anything else. Realistically, a Space Marine is probably equal to about a dozen normal soldiers, and an SM chapter equal to 1-2 Imperial Guard Regiments with accompanying Imperial Navy support, which is to say, negligible really.
EDIT: As a random note while typing this post, I just realized I think I actually own enough SM Terminators sitting on my hobby desk between Space Hulk, Dark Vengeance, and a few of the plastic terminators they gave out with White Dwarf a few years back, to field a legal decently sized Deathwing army...
The numbers that you're mentioning are irrelevant. The Space Marines work because they offer something that the Guard does not have and will never have: mobility. Outnumbering the Astartes a trillion to one is irrelevant when it takes the Guard over a year to even mobilize a task force to handle a threat (the Taros Campaign article notes that the ETA for how long it would take the Munitorum to assemble the required manpower and equipment necessary to take Taros was three years. The Lord General managed to do it in one, and that was, apparently, a massive surprise to everyone). Space Marines by comparison can mobilize and be taking the fight to the enemy in a matter of months. Having trillions more regiments than chapters means little when 95% of all the Guard regiments in the Galaxy are incapable of fighting daemons because they're regular human beings whose minds shatter when they look at a Nurgling, etc.
Anyone with a brain can see that Space Marines are utterly incapable of matching the Guard when it comes to conventional warfare, but then conventional warfare is not, and has never been, their role in the fighting. So pointing out that they can't do what the Guard do is pointless.
That aside, complaining about how how "unrealistic" their victories are is also pointless. The entire Imperium, from the Guard to the Astartes, fight as if warfare never evolved past World War 2. None of what they do "works" if you hold it under a realism microscope.
If that's your measuring stick, then the Eldar are really the only faction in the mythos who come close to fighting "realistically".
Lynata wrote: In the campaign, but not in the battle/s. The Codex specifically points out how the Marines used their mobility and shock strike capabilities to stike at lightly defended targets, gradually reducing the Tau force world by world and weakening critical positions elsewhere as the enemy commander had to reposition his forces. If they would have had a base of their own to defend, the campaign may well have ended differently.
Compare this to Armageddon, where, after the First Season of Fire, lots of Marine Chapters simply departed because the current stage of the war - basically lots of trench fighting - didn't suit them, the corresponding WD article specifically mentioning the Marines' inability to bring their mobility advantage to bear.
QFT, there is indeed a difference between Blitzkrieg and trench warfare. Every Marine can do a ton of damage when they are using their favorite tactics of fast lightning strikes and bleed out enemy very quickly. On Armageddon they pretty much had to hold the line against the Orks, and while I have no doubt that they killed thousands of Greenskins per Marine they suffered losses too because Orks are Orks.
But they still have their moments, like in the end of Taros campaign where a single company held and actually pushed back entire Tau army ( all with Manta ) that was more than enough to hold down tens of thousands of Guardsmen ( Guard numbered around 20 - 30.000 Guardsmen on Taros + 4 Titans, so around 100 Astartes did a job for all of them in the end ).
More like, there's tons of books about Space Marines. The number of books about the Imperium of Man (IE, the actual society beyond its military) at best only marginally outnumbers the number of xenos based books.
BlaxicanX wrote: The numbers that you're mentioning are irrelevant. The Space Marines work because they offer something that the Guard does not have and will never have: mobility.
They're not irrelevant because for all that vaunted mobility the Space Marines functionally are *NOWHERE*.
There are so few of them that for every instance they'd be desperately needed they simply aren't available 9,999 out of 10,000 times. So yeah, they're mobile, but they're never there when you need them, making that mobility rather pointless if they're simply not around.
Much as the Germans faced in WW2, yes the Tiger and King Tiger tanks were mighty foes, able to dominate battlefields where they appeared, too bad you've never got more than 60 in the field at any one time, on two fronts encompassing over 6000 continuous miles of active front against 20,000 enemy tanks that can simply move around them. They become irrelevant. Only in the case of the Space Marines, that gap is then exaggerated by a factor of ten thousand here.
This is, of course, on top of the fact that they go where they want, when they want, and so even if available and in the area, aren't necessarily guaranteed to make an appearance by any means. No SM chapter would commit to Vraks until the IG had been engaged for years and still wouldn't commit to the main battle until the war had been going on for over a decade. And then of course you run the risk of getting a chapter that just decides to up and leave for its own reasons leaving the task undone, like the DA's and their successors are described as doing quite often.
Then there's still the whole thing about them somehow always knowing exactly when and where to strike despite not having an intelligence apparatus and not exactly always having excellent relationships and information exchanges with other Imperial entities.
Outnumbering the Astartes a trillion to one is irrelevant when it takes the Guard over a year to even mobilize a task force to handle a threat (the Taros Campaign article notes that the ETA for how long it would take the Munitorum to assemble the required manpower and equipment necessary to take Taros was three years.
And yet other times the IG makes it to the battle in far less time, another factor heavily dependent on author. IIRC the Munitorum landed the first troops on Vraks much faster.
Having trillions more regiments than chapters means little when 95% of all the Guard regiments in the Galaxy are incapable of fighting daemons because they're regular human beings whose minds shatter when they look at a Nurgling, etc.
On what basis is this made? Daemons in and of themselves don't shatter the minds of guardsmen, we have plenty of examples of the Imperial Guard fighting off the forces of Chaos, and it's not like the Space Marines are immune to Chaos either, one will notice there is a Codex: Chaos Space Marines and not a Codex: Chaos Guard
Yes, normal human minds are more vulnerable to the corrupting influence of the Warp, but they are also capable of fighting it and don't auto-turn traitor as soon as a Daemon shows itself. That's pure fan-fantasy.
Anyone with a brain can see that Space Marines are utterly incapable of matching the Guard when it comes to conventional warfare, but then conventional warfare is not, and has never been, their role in the fighting. So pointing out that they can't do what the Guard do is pointless.
Except that half the SM fluff is basically conventional battles
On the subject of age, I guess it depends on where you come from in 40k. Sure Space Marines will know how long a 'Terra Year' is. But for regular ignorant citizens it depends entirely on how long it takes their particular planet to revolve around their sun. Assuming they have one.
Billions upon billions in the imperium probably never even see daylight, let alone know how old they are whilst they work themselves to an early grave in any of the horrible jobs they must have.
On the subject of Space Marines strength, I think that the rules from the game 'Inquisitor' suit them well.
Whatever they hit is instantly the worst kind of damage possible on a normal human being. And unless you hit a Space Marine in the head with a gun whilst they're not wearing a helmet their armor will absorb all of the damage.
Even a Boltgun will need several good hits in the same location to slow one down.
XT-1984 wrote:On the subject of Space Marines strength, I think that the rules from the game 'Inquisitor' suit them well.
Whatever they hit is instantly the worst kind of damage possible on a normal human being. And unless you hit a Space Marine in the head with a gun whilst they're not wearing a helmet their armor will absorb all of the damage.
wat
A Space Marine's power armour helmet in GW's Inquisitor game has the exact same armour value as any other power armour helmet, which is 10. Which can be breached even by a lasgun shot if you've got some luck with the dice.
XT-1984 wrote:On the subject of Space Marines strength, I think that the rules from the game 'Inquisitor' suit them well.
Whatever they hit is instantly the worst kind of damage possible on a normal human being. And unless you hit a Space Marine in the head with a gun whilst they're not wearing a helmet their armor will absorb all of the damage.
wat
A Space Marine's power armour helmet in GW's Inquisitor game has the exact same armour value as any other power armour helmet, which is 10. Which can be breached even by a lasgun shot if you've got some luck with the dice.
IIRC the same is true in DH - lasgun damage can go through powered armor (toughness of the critter aside).
Yeah, that annoyed me as well. I mean I can understand the IDEA of "light, cheap powered armor used for ceremonial purposes by nobles". I'm like, "okay, that's cool."
But then they try to claim that's what Sisters armor is. And I'm like "FETH YOU AND YOUR DOG, THE LORE DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS THAT."
Then they give Astartes armor two more armor points tahn Sororitas armor. And I'm like "DOUBLE FETH YOU, THE CODEX SPECIFICALLY SAYS IT PROVIDES THE SAME PROTECTION!".
The FFGRPG's should also be taken in their context, Space Marines in the FFGRPG's are definitely on the more "Heroic" side, as HBMC put it, they're "300" in Space, generally the best, most experienced and lavishly equipped SM's on the most dangerous missions, thus comparisons are a bit wonky. They physically can't even be hurt by a lasgun unless taken in horde magnitude and rolling decently, which we know isn't exactly correct.
Unit1126PLL wrote:IIRC the same is true in DH - lasgun damage can go through powered armor (toughness of the critter aside).
It can - but the problem with DH is that this ruleset applies a character's Toughness like a second set of armour. At which point even normal people in PA become invincible against lasguns. Or Arbitrators using carapace and a shield, now that I remember another dakkanaut's comment.
In Inquisitor, Toughness doesn't magically stop you from getting injured - it just "softens" the blow, for example by turning an attack that would've otherwise blown off your arm into a deep flesh wound.
The advantage of this system is obviously that people, even Space Marines, still get wounded. Astartes will just manage to take a lot more punishment than an ordinary human until they finally succumb to their injuries. As it should be.
I've been toying around with implementing this idea into DH by using Toughness like a buffer between Criticals. It's one of the few things I really dislike in the core mechanics.
Spoiler:
Every 5 points of Toughness, a character adds a Buffer Wound in-between his Criticals, starting from the top down. If the end of the table is reached (Toughness 35), the next Buffer Wound will be added to the first, again starting from the top down.
Example: Space Marine Captain Elias has a Toughness characteristic of 94, which translates to 18 Buffer Wounds allocated in-between the Critical Effects (Crit, Wound, Wound, Crit, Wound, Wound, Crit, ...) in order to reduce the effect of injuries incurred.
... still working on the details, tho. I'm not sure if ~10-20 Buffer Wounds are enough to compensate for the complete loss of TB. Certainly, combat would get quite a bit bloodier. People might actually start to receive serious injuries, yet not killed in the very next round! Bring out those bionics.
Melissia wrote:Then they give Astartes armor two more armor points tahn Sororitas armor. And I'm like "DOUBLE FETH YOU, THE CODEX SPECIFICALLY SAYS IT PROVIDES THE SAME PROTECTION!".
I thought it more amusing that the Sisters of Battle apparently use civilian bolters, as per the wording in the core rulebook.
And Inquisitors get civilian Terminator armour.
Vaktathi wrote:The FFGRPG's should also be taken in their context, Space Marines in the FFGRPG's are definitely on the more "Heroic" side, as HBMC put it, they're "300" in Space, generally the best, most experienced and lavishly equipped SM's on the most dangerous missions, thus comparisons are a bit wonky. They physically can't even be hurt by a lasgun unless taken in horde magnitude and rolling decently, which we know isn't exactly correct.
Absolutely. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that. It gets problematic when FFG still claims that you can do crossovers without a problem, which would be like placing your own self right next to those Spartans in "300" and expecting you to have fun. And it gets even more problematic when there are some people who don't get the intentional exaggeration and claim that this, just like the Movie Marines list, is how it's "actually supposed to be".
Vaktathi wrote: They're not irrelevant because for all that vaunted mobility the Space Marines functionally are *NOWHERE*
"functionally" being your arbitrary fall-back point when I point out that collectively the Astartes have participated in basically every major event that's ever existed since their conception. Trying to point out that they aren't in as many places as the Guard is, again, a non-sequitier.
This is, of course, on top of the fact that they go where they want, when they want, and so even if available and in the area, aren't necessarily guaranteed to make an appearance by any means. No SM chapter would commit to Vraks until the IG had been engaged for years and still wouldn't commit to the main battle until the war had been going on for over a decade. And then of course you run the risk of getting a chapter that just decides to up and leave for its own reasons leaving the task undone, like the DA's and their successors are described as doing quite often.
And then on the other hand you get chapters like the Salamanders and Ultramarines, who jump into the fray before the Guard even get there, or the Avenging Sons who got their literally years before the Guard did. It took a Cadian regiment 50 years to get to a combat theater, and the Death Korps bombed a city that had surrendered for like 6 months. I guess aaallll Guard regiments are bumbling incompetents.
Then there's still the whole thing about them somehow always knowing exactly when and where to strike despite not having an intelligence apparatus and not exactly always having excellent relationships and information exchanges with other Imperial entities.
The Guard are the exact same way. Welcome to the Imperium, welcome to a universe where Military Fiction isn't written by people with military experience.
And yet other times the IG makes it to the battle in far less time, another factor heavily dependent on author. IIRC the Munitorum landed the first troops on Vraks much faster.
And quite often they don't. We're at an impasse. D:
On what basis is this made? Daemons in and of themselves don't shatter the minds of guardsmen,
We have plenty of examples of exactly that happening as well.
and it's not like the Space Marines are immune to Chaos either, one will notice there is a Codex: Chaos Space Marines and not a Codex: Chaos Guard
Yeah, 'cause Humans aren't powerful enough to have their own Chaos dex. They just get shoe-horned into the Space Marine one as Slaves.
[Yes, normal human minds are more vulnerable to the corrupting influence of the Warp, but they are also capable of fighting it and don't auto-turn traitor as soon as a Daemon shows itself. That's pure fan-fantasy.
No, the huge majority of Humans can't cope with fighting daemons. They can't even cope with fighting aliens and each other. That's why Commisars exist.
Except that half the SM fluff is basically conventional battles
BlaxicanX wrote:functionally" being your arbitrary fall-back point when I point out that collectively the Astartes have participated in basically every major event that's ever existed since their conception.
Because the one's the SM's are written into are generally the only ones they talk about, or are so big that *everything* is involved. There are plenty of of conflicts in which the SM's never make an appearance, but given that SM's are the center of the story, they of course are usually the ones mentioned.
Trying to point out that they aren't in as many places as the Guard is, again, a non-sequitier.
Only in sofar as most 40k fluff is based around the rare few battles the SM's participate in. The vast majority of the Imperium's wars never see a single Space Marine.
And then on the other hand you get chapters like the Salamanders and Ultramarines, who jump into the fray before the Guard even get there, or the Avenging Sons who got their literally years before the Guard did. It took a Cadian regiment 50 years to get to a combat theater, and the Death Korps bombed a city that had surrendered for like 6 months. I guess aaallll Guard regiments are bumbling incompetents.
I'm not saying the SM's don't often make it there before the IG does *when they do appear*, I'm saying that they're so often never even around that the IG somehow manages where quite simply no SM's exist in the overwhelmingly vast majority of the Imperium's wars. Then again, they also frequently don't show up until long after the party has started either.
I'm not entirely familiar with the Cadian story your referring to here (at least not off the top of my head) though I'm assuming that had something to do with Warp stuff in which case that just as easily happens to Space Marines and has nothing to do with being IG or not.
The DKoK story is being misrepresented here, that was about sending a message and making a point, which basically was "fething with the Munitorum is a really really really bad idea".
The Guard are the exact same way. Welcome to the Imperium, welcome to a universe where Military Fiction isn't written by people with military experience.
While yes, much of the Imperium is dysfunctional, the Imperial Guard does have intelligence apparatus and interacts far more with other Imperial entities, unlike SM chapters which are mini-empires unto themselves and largely autarkic.
We have plenty of examples of exactly that happening as well
Where do guardsmen just drop dead or instantly turn traitor as soon as a Daemon shows up? At least where there hasn't already been some sort of long term corruption involved?
Besides, Daemons are, relative to everything else, an extremely rare foe that is rarely encountered, and that SM's would be needed in every instance would be silly as they themselves are just as rare if not rarer than Daemonic incursions and aren't an anti-daemon specialized force either. Having SM's to counter Daemons would, more often than not, be the rarest of occurrences indeed, except in situations where calls had been longstanding and loud.
Yeah, 'cause Humans aren't powerful enough to have their own Chaos dex. They just get shoe-horned into the Space Marine one as Slaves.
Not really, Cultists aren't Traitor Guard... they're Cultists, they're not equipped to the same level as guardsmen nor can they even be upgraded to that level. They aren't the same thing at all.
No, the huge majority of Humans can't cope with fighting daemons.
Your average human? No. Your average trained soldier? Sure they can. It's not the daemons, it's the proximity exposure to the Warp that eventually contaminates everything be it human, space marine, or other. Daemons in and of themselves aren't something beyond the abilities of the IG to combat, the Mordian Iron Guard, 13th Mordant, and Gaunts Ghosts are an excellent examples.
They can't even cope with fighting aliens and each other. That's why Commisars exist.
Most regiments have a single Commissar out of several thousand troops, who isn't there routinely executing people for cowardice, but dealing with occasional major breaches in discipline, making sure certain tenets are known and adhered to, and advising command staff on organizational and command matters as well as interfacing with regiments from other worlds. You're grossly over-exaggerating their necessity.
No it isn't.
No, it really is, a lot of it is rather conventional battles. Storming rebel hives, holding actions, sieges, etc, those would definitely fall under conventional battle actions.
Space Marines are so rare, the galaxy so huge, the Imperium so vast, and its enemies so numerous, that the overwhelming majority of battles-- that is, >99% of them-- have no heads nor tails of Space Marines.
XT-1984 wrote:On the subject of Space Marines strength, I think that the rules from the game 'Inquisitor' suit them well.
Whatever they hit is instantly the worst kind of damage possible on a normal human being. And unless you hit a Space Marine in the head with a gun whilst they're not wearing a helmet their armor will absorb all of the damage.
wat
A Space Marine's power armour helmet in GW's Inquisitor game has the exact same armour value as any other power armour helmet, which is 10. Which can be breached even by a lasgun shot if you've got some luck with the dice.
Yes, but doesn't a Space Marine have a Toughness (or whatever its called in Inquisitor) of 150 odd? And lets be honest, Armor 10 on the Head was pretty massive. I don't remember the exact details, I haven't played it for years and I can't find my rulebook.
I thought a Lasgun had a Damage of something like 2D6 +4. So yes you could penetrate the armor but you wouldn't score over his Toughness to inflict the first level of damage. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember them being impervious to all but the deadliest weapons.
And the chance to hit a Space Marine in his Head whilst he isn't wearing a Helmet, and then roll high enough to damage him four times from a range (with a Lasgun), whilst he is moving and firing back at you was very low. But of course we aren't just talking about one person with a Lasgun. Although I doubt ten people would fair much better unless the Space Marine didn't attack them back.
Anyhow I am intrigued now, if you can correct me on this I would like to hear back from you. Inquisitor was fun whilst it lasted.
XT-1984 wrote:Yes, but doesn't a Space Marine have a Toughness (or whatever its called in Inquisitor) of 150 odd?
He has, but it won't prevent him from being injured. It just means the wound won't be that bad.
This would change quickly when the next shot hits him and he is nudged down another level on the injury chart. And so on.
In FFG's RPGs, these shots would just harmlessly bounce off their superhuman body. By the rules, you could stab a naked Space Marine a million times with a knife and not achieve anything as not being wounded at all means all this damage won't "stack" in any way; like it does in the Inquisitor game.
But yes, Armor 10 is massive. I mean, even a lasgun has a ~16% chance to punch through and injure the guy (which, interestingly, fits exactly to the fluff about Astartes power armour protection in the Codex:AoD), but the suit will take a lot of oomph out of just about any weapon. You may get injured, but you won't go down quickly!
XT-1984 wrote:I thought a Lasgun had a Damage of something like 2D6 +4. So yes you could penetrate the armor but you wouldn't score over his Toughness to inflict the first level of damage. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember them being impervious to all but the deadliest weapons.
You actually had me worried I'd have misunderstood the rules for a minute ... but no, I just rechecked the PDF hosted on GW's website:
"In addition, each location has a number of injury levels which may be inflicted: Light, Heavy, Serious, Acute and Crippled. If a hit inflicts damage up to the character's Base Injury value, it does one level of damage. [...]"
Meaning, anything that goes through the armour will give you at least a Light Injury, with your Toughness (-> the Base Injury value) determining if it remains a Light Injury or gets worse.
A Space Marine has Toughness 150, which means a Base Injury value of 15. Any attack would thus need to do more than 25 damage in order to inflict more than a Light injury with the first hit.
And as a followup, the very next shot that hits this location would make it at least a Heavy Injury, regardless of how much damage comes through. Shoot the Marine's head four times (the head only has 4 injury levels) with a lasgun and he's a goner! Of course, he will suffer injury effects (being stunned, getting slower, going into system shock, ...) well before this point.
As for the lasgun, the standard models do 2d6. However, the Triplex-pattern has a charge slider (also mentioned in the IG Codex), and on the higher settings it does either 2d6+3 or 2d6+5.
Maybe you were half thinking of boltguns? Those do 2d10+4.
From what I've been told, there was a different issue with Space Marines in Inquisitor, namely that all characters had the ability recover injury levels between the rounds. Just the Astartes had such a high Toughness score that he'd be almost guaranteed to regenerate back to full health in the next turn... so you'd basically have to kill him in a single round.
That's actually a pretty big flaw with the system ...
