New FAQs are up. Some changes I've seen:
Farseer powers cannot affect units out of transports.
Nids now disembark from Spores like infantry from vehicles,
No Cover Saves from Vector Strike, Random allocation
Force Weapon activation before FNP.
Units in Nightscythe don't take damage.
Abaddon is not prevented from joining units with a Mark of Chaos.
Also the Noise Marine changes are very interesting. They can now take a Blastmaster when they number less than 10. At 10 models they may take a second Blastmaster. Also the Champ got his Close Combat Weapon.
Voodoo_Chile wrote: Also the Noise Marine changes are very interesting. They can now take a Blastmaster when they number less than 10. At 10 models they may take a second Blastmaster. Also the Champ got his Close Combat Weapon.
Noticed that as well; that's going to make a lot of Emperor's Children players very happy.
Also, good to see that they've picked up most (all?) of the major rules issues for Dark Angels that have been discussed already. (Admittedly I'm not completely up to date with them, so there might still be some in dispute.)
Trasvi wrote: Finally a clear answer on seeker missiles vs flyers.
Q: If Seeker Missiles are fired at a Zooming Flyer or Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, what To Hit roll do they require? (p31) A: 6+
Great, good to know the idiots at Games Workshop have no idea what the implication of their rules are, it's totally reasonable that you have to burn 6 one shot weapons and fire 36 markerlights on average at a flyer to get a single seeker hit.
edit: In hindsight perhaps a bit overzealous of me, but this issue has always bothered me whenever it comes up.
Q: Some units have rules that mean their selection permits other units from that detachment to be selected as if they belonged to different parts of their Codex army list (Heavy Support choices chosen as Troops for example). If such a permissive unit is killed, do these rules immediately cease to apply (e.g. units chosen as Troops that were not Troops originally cease to count as such and so cannot be Scoring units, or worse become illedgal units due to excess choices from one or more sections of the army list)? (p109) A: No.
I cannot believe that required an FAQ. Who actually used the argument "Ha, Khârn is dead, and I see you already took 3 units of chaos terminators, well, since those berzerkers aren't troops anymore, you now have more than 3 elites, which is illegal, therefore I win!!!111" in a game?
Also:
Q: How do I determine the Arc of Sight for a Heldrake’s ranged weapon? (p52) A: Treat the Heldrake’s ranged weapon as a Turret Mounted Weapon, measuring all ranges from the edge of the Heldrake’s base nearest to the target unit.
Helldrake now gets a 360 arc of sight courtesy of what could be one of the strangest FAQ rulings I've ever seen.
@Avatar:
I don't think that was the intent. I think it's more like:
My SC died, does my Elite unit still score \ does that unit counts as FA or troops for this particular mission (if you get points for killing FA)?
rigeld2 wrote: On another note - Blessings can be used the turn you arrive from Reserves.
Iron Arm Doom just got significantly deadlier.
Really? how?
It says outflank and reserve rolls, so thats when rolling for a 3 plus to see if they come on, not the scatter dice or movement from reserve.
Moved it over here since more general than range wound allocation. (Where the comments were)
Iron Arm has nothing to do with outflank or reserve.
Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68) A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
Before, he'd have to cast Iron Arm off the board and couldn't, so your opponent gets a turn to try and ID him. Now he arrives from Reserves (since that's part of rolling for Reserves) and can cast the Blessing then. Eternal Warrior the turn he lands will be nice.
rigeld2 wrote: On another note - Blessings can be used the turn you arrive from Reserves.
Iron Arm Doom just got significantly deadlier.
Really? how?
It says outflank and reserve rolls, so thats when rolling for a 3 plus to see if they come on, not the scatter dice or movement from reserve.
Moved it over here since more general than range wound allocation. (Where the comments were)
Iron Arm has nothing to do with outflank or reserve.
Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68) A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
Before, he'd have to cast Iron Arm off the board and couldn't, so your opponent gets a turn to try and ID him. Now he arrives from Reserves (since that's part of rolling for Reserves) and can cast the Blessing then. Eternal Warrior the turn he lands will be nice.
On a turn where Swarmlord was forced to outflank by say, scenario rules, he could walk on the board and cast iron arm then .?
GWFAQ wrote:Q: If I have the classic Howling Banshee Exarch model with a power
axe, does she strike at Initiative 1 (for Unwieldy) or Initiative 10 (for
the Banshee Mask)? (p31)
A: Neither. Treat the axe as a stylised executioner for +10
points.
Way to completely dodge the question, GW. Thanks! What if any or all the other banshees in the squad are modeled with axes? Can I arm them with Executioners as well for +10 points a model?
On a turn where Swarmlord was forced to outflank by say, scenario rules, he could walk on the board and cast iron arm then .?
Actually if you look at the rules for Reserves arriving you see that at the start of the turn you actually roll for all your units to see if they are arriving and after that you pick one unit that is arriving, move it on from reserves, rinse and repeat.
So technically speaking the argument could be made that only the rolls to see what Reserves will be arriving are occurring at the start of the turn and therefore this ruling only tells us that we're allowed to know what units will be arriving before casting Blessings, not that this would actually allow a unit moving on from Reserve to have a blessing cast on it.
This is in tune with the caveat on pg 125 of the rulebook which says: "unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn in the turn it arrives from reserve."
But it is definitely a confusing FAQ answer for that reason and needs to be further clarified.
Resolving the reserve roll includes moving the units on the board. So using the FAQ you have permission to resolve the reserve rolls and then cast blessings.
rigeld2 wrote: Resolving the reserve roll includes moving the units on the board. So using the FAQ you have permission to resolve the reserve rolls and then cast blessings.
Well not technically. You resolve all the rolls for reserves first before moving any reserve units onto the table. As long as you don't go and move any units that started the turn on the table, there's no reason you couldn't roll all the reserve rolls first, do some other 'start of turn' action next and then come back and move the units arriving from reserve onto the table.
But I do agree that the FAQ answer seems to strongly imply what you are saying...but my point is there is a window of doubt there, especially given that the FAQ question asks about 'rolls' and not specifically reserve units actually arriving on the table.
Resolving the roll is simply determining the result of the roll - applying any modifiers, etc. I see it the same as Yakface, in that all this does is let you see who is coming on the board before being forced to cast blessings.
It cannot mean "...and move on", as you do not resolve that beofre resolving other dice rolls for reserves
rigeld2 wrote: Resolving the reserve roll includes moving the units on the board. So using the FAQ you have permission to resolve the reserve rolls and then cast blessings.
Well not technically. You resolve all the rolls for reserves first before moving any reserve units onto the table. As long as you don't go and move any units that started the turn on the table, there's no reason you couldn't roll all the reserve rolls first, do some other 'start of turn' action next and then come back and move the units arriving from reserve onto the table.
But I do agree that the FAQ answer seems to strongly imply what you are saying...but my point is there is a window of doubt there, especially given that the FAQ question asks about 'rolls' and not specifically reserve units actually arriving on the table.
I've always read that combination of rules to mean that a psyker arriving from Reserves couldn't cast start-of-turn powers, but a psyker already on the board COULD target a unit arriving from Reserve with start-of-turn powers. I'm not sure that the wording of the FAQ changes that interpretation for me.
GWFAQ wrote:Q: If I have the classic Howling Banshee Exarch model with a power
axe, does she strike at Initiative 1 (for Unwieldy) or Initiative 10 (for
the Banshee Mask)? (p31)
A: Neither. Treat the axe as a stylised executioner for +10
points.
Way to completely dodge the question, GW. Thanks! What if any or all the other banshees in the squad are modeled with axes? Can I arm them with Executioners as well for +10 points a model?
Banshees were restricted to only swords via the last FAQIIRC. Stupid ruling as they are entirely irrelevant at this point and I10 axes on the charge might have made them usable but no, we cant have that.
Farseers really needed another nerf? Oh well, i stopped taking WS even before 6th came out. Harlequin spam ftw.
They could have clarified the reserve rolls/psychic powers so you could cast power that alter the reserve rolls. Like GK's psychic communion, although i didn't know there was any issue there.
The Farseer casting out of a vehicle with no Fire Points was actually a big bone of contention in our group and was due for a FAQ'ing. Our Eldar player may not be happy with the ruling but at least they made one!
rigeld2 wrote: Resolving the reserve roll includes moving the units on the board. So using the FAQ you have permission to resolve the reserve rolls and then cast blessings.
Well not technically. You resolve all the rolls for reserves first before moving any reserve units onto the table. As long as you don't go and move any units that started the turn on the table, there's no reason you couldn't roll all the reserve rolls first, do some other 'start of turn' action next and then come back and move the units arriving from reserve onto the table.
But I do agree that the FAQ answer seems to strongly imply what you are saying...but my point is there is a window of doubt there, especially given that the FAQ question asks about 'rolls' and not specifically reserve units actually arriving on the table.
I agree with Yakface, and thanks Rigeld for moving it here .
I think the FAQ is in reference to scriers gaze, the divination power.
The way I did it bother was, roll for reserves, cast psyhic powers, move reserves onto board (whether outflanking or deepstriking) then do normal movement. Now I can cast the psyhic power then roll for reserves (scriers gaze lets you roll 3d6 and pick what you want) then do reserve moves
Reserve rolls were deemed beginning of turn in the BRB.
Avatar 720 wrote: Q: Some units have rules that mean their selection permits other
units from that detachment to be selected as if they belonged to
different parts of their Codex army list (Heavy Support choices
chosen as Troops for example). If such a permissive unit is killed, do
these rules immediately cease to apply (e.g. units chosen as Troops
that were not Troops originally cease to count as such and so cannot
be Scoring units, or worse become illedgal units due to excess choices
from one or more sections of the army list)? (p109)
A: No.
I cannot believe that required an FAQ. Who actually used the argument "Ha, Khârn is dead, and I see you already took 3 units of chaos terminators, well, since those berzerkers aren't troops anymore, you now have more than 3 elites, which is illegal, therefore I win!!!111" in a game?
I'm pretty sure they had to put this in due to the BRBfaq about warlord trait's being lost as soon as the warlord dies. In other words they were trying to make sure some of us don't claim that the HQ's "normal" special rules are lost causing the game to implode. So it's not that anyone has used the argument, it's that someone inevitably would make that argument without it.
As an IG player, I can see someone making the argument that killing Chenkov means you lose SINTW, and killing Creed makes you lose Scout on that one unit. But of course, the FAQ doesn't cover those.
Page 31 – Howling Banshees, Banshee Mask.
Replace this entry with the following:
Banshee Mask: In the first round of an assault, a model wearing
a Banshee mask has Initiative 10, even if it charged through
difficult terrain. Furthermore, defensive grenades cannot be
used against a charging model with a Banshee Mask
PredaKhaine wrote: Page 31 – Howling Banshees, Banshee Mask. Replace this entry with the following: Banshee Mask: In the first round of an assault, a model wearing a Banshee mask has Initiative 10, even if it charged through difficult terrain. Furthermore, defensive grenades cannot be used against a charging model with a Banshee Mask
Is this new or did I miss this before?
If the text is "pink" it is new, it if it not pink then it was added in previous FAQ's
rigeld2 wrote: On another note - Blessings can be used the turn you arrive from Reserves.
Iron Arm Doom just got significantly deadlier.
Really? how?
It says outflank and reserve rolls, so thats when rolling for a 3 plus to see if they come on, not the scatter dice or movement from reserve.
Moved it over here since more general than range wound allocation. (Where the comments were)
Iron Arm has nothing to do with outflank or reserve.
Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68) A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
Before, he'd have to cast Iron Arm off the board and couldn't, so your opponent gets a turn to try and ID him. Now he arrives from Reserves (since that's part of rolling for Reserves) and can cast the Blessing then. Eternal Warrior the turn he lands will be nice.
Don't think that is true, even post FAQ. Blessing have to happen before movement and coming in from Reserve counts as movement. I think this ruling was more to effect how you can cast on other units.
Way to kick the Sky Ray while its down, Games Workship. Now the Tau's dedicated anti-aircraft platform has the worst accuracy of any unit in the game versus aircraft.
Yeah, i am 99% sure some of the highlighting is off, having said that if they were smart they would use a diff and this way it would be auto highlighted for them.
I was wondering about the scriers gaze which can now be used before reserves without question.
Thing is regardless of the psyker being on the board when other psykers are casting their powers, i don't see anything that changes this rule from pg. 67
On a turn that a psyker arrives from reserve (see page 124) he cannot attempt to manifest any psychic powers that must be manifested at the start of the Movement phase.
So no, you still can't buff a on the turn that it arrives with it's own powers but you could cast endurance on it's unit from a psyker that was on the board previous to this turn.
I'm hoping it means they are making last minute changes to include a few things like the drop pod issue. I guess we'll know soon enough one way or the other.
Another thing they missed again is, what is your army. So I guess by now its official that the mad dok can cybork up his allies or any other ally/army shenanigans you want to do.
Tomb King wrote: Also, rending on vehicles is no longer ap2. That is a pretty significant nerf to rending units.
Well they never were, as the AP2 was under the to wound part of rending.
Happyjew wrote: Actually, there is a change regarding zombies. It's subtle and I almost missed it. The change it's what gets replaced by the rule.
Well it is not really a change, because if you read it as replacing the whole rule you could never take plague zombies. If you read it as changing that specific line in the zombie rule it made perfect sense.
Happyjew wrote: Actually, there is a change regarding zombies. It's subtle and I almost missed it. The change it's what gets replaced by the rule.
Well what is it? If it's the part that they have more then 10 models that was already there.
It used to say:
Spoiler:
Page 61 – Typhus, Plague Zombies.
Change to ‘Plague Zombies are
Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel No Pain and Slow
and Purposeful special rules and cannot purchase options
other than to add additional models to the unit.’
but now it says:
Page 61 – Typhus, Plague Zombies.
Change the second sentence to read ‘Plague Zombies are
Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel No Pain and Slow
and Purposeful special rules and cannot purchase options
other than to add additional models to the unit.’
There is also no mention of invul and cover saves being used for anything except wounds. It's not that hard to assume that rending would count against vehicles.
The questions I've had about DA have been answered. Dark shrouds do not have stealth, any land raider can take deathwing vehicle, Beliel has his halo, and ravenwing command squads can't buy items that don't exist.
Savageconvoy wrote: There is also no mention of invul and cover saves being used for anything except wounds. It's not that hard to assume that rending would count against vehicles.
It tells you what it does against Vehicles, by talking about Armour Penetration. It doesnt say you get both
nosferatu1001 wrote: Resolving the roll is simply determining the result of the roll - applying any modifiers, etc. I see it the same as Yakface, in that all this does is let you see who is coming on the board before being forced to cast blessings.
It cannot mean "...and move on", as you do not resolve that beofre resolving other dice rolls for reserves
You're told to roll a bunch of dice (one for every unit). When they arrive you're told to move them on the board.
It's one action - you can't roll then pause then move.
Rigeld, normally I agree with you but the "roll" for reserves and the use of psychic powers happen at the same time. This is discussed in detail in another thread that the only significant change is now you can legally use the gaze. However you must then cast all your start of turn powers before you know which reserves come on.
rigeld2 wrote: On another note - Blessings can be used the turn you arrive from Reserves.
Iron Arm Doom just got significantly deadlier.
Really? how?
It says outflank and reserve rolls, so thats when rolling for a 3 plus to see if they come on, not the scatter dice or movement from reserve.
Moved it over here since more general than range wound allocation. (Where the comments were)
Iron Arm has nothing to do with outflank or reserve.
Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68) A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
Before, he'd have to cast Iron Arm off the board and couldn't, so your opponent gets a turn to try and ID him. Now he arrives from Reserves (since that's part of rolling for Reserves) and can cast the Blessing then. Eternal Warrior the turn he lands will be nice.
That FAQ didn't give permission to override pg 67 which states a psker coming in from reserves cannot cast powers that are at the start of the movement phase. However, now you can get your reserves on the table and have a different psyker buff them.
I am pretty surprised IG, C:SM, SOB didnt get updated, like other said hopefully last minute changes. If not is there really nothing to correct with the 3 dex's?
Also someone mentioned a problem with drop pods? whats wrong with them?
rigeld2 wrote: On another note - Blessings can be used the turn you arrive from Reserves.
Iron Arm Doom just got significantly deadlier.
Really? how?
It says outflank and reserve rolls, so thats when rolling for a 3 plus to see if they come on, not the scatter dice or movement from reserve.
Moved it over here since more general than range wound allocation. (Where the comments were)
Iron Arm has nothing to do with outflank or reserve.
Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68) A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
Before, he'd have to cast Iron Arm off the board and couldn't, so your opponent gets a turn to try and ID him. Now he arrives from Reserves (since that's part of rolling for Reserves) and can cast the Blessing then. Eternal Warrior the turn he lands will be nice.
That FAQ didn't give permission to override pg 67 which states a psker coming in from reserves cannot cast powers that are at the start of the movement phase. However, now you can get your reserves on the table and have a different psyker buff them.
That's fair - I'd forgotten about the rule on page 67 thanks.
tankboy145 wrote: I am pretty surprised IG, C:SM, SOB didnt get updated, like other said hopefully last minute changes. If not is there really nothing to correct with the 3 dex's?
Also someone mentioned a problem with drop pods? whats wrong with them?
There's a debate (which basically is in a never-ending circle) on whether or not being treated as an immobilised vehicle causes you to lose a hull point. However, (afaik) nobody actually plays that it does lose a hull point.
On a side note, I noticed that the FAQ covered Toughness used for Challenges, but they left out WS. Hmmm...
Different note: Not trying to start an argument, just curious about it (basically it's a HWYPI question). Based on the FAQ regarding Force Weapons and FNP, how would that interact with other weapons that have the potential of causing ID or similar ability, such as boneswords and the hexrifle?
Different note: Not trying to start an argument, just curious about it (basically it's a HWYPI question). Based on the FAQ regarding Force Weapons and FNP, how would that interact with other weapons that have the potential of causing ID or similar ability, such as boneswords and the hexrifle?
With their stance it would appear
Bone Sword wound
Passes leadership, gets FnP roll.
Hexrifle
This one is RFPIIRC.
Wound, armor save, FnP, characteristic test if still needed.
At least that's the only way that makes sense to me. While possibly ignoring some rules.
jegsar wrote: As far as psykers, reserves still are not on the board at the time the powers are used, only the roll is made before the use of psychic powers.
No - you roll for all units then move them on. Moving on is part of arriving from reserves.
But page 67 restricts it anyway.
Roll for reserves -> Use Psychic Powers -> Reserves arrive
or
Use Psychic Powers -> Roll for Reserves -> Reserves arrive
The rolling and the use of powers happens at the same time
And the advantages and disadvantages of each were described.
Roll for reserves -> Use Psychic Powers -> Reserves arrive
or
Use Psychic Powers -> Roll for Reserves -> Reserves arrive
The rolling and the use of powers happens at the same time
And the advantages and disadvantages of each were described.
So you can roll for reserves separately from arriving? It's one process - find permission to interrupt it.
Roll a die - 3. That unit arrives from Reserves. When it arrives its placed on the board and moved.
At the start of your Turn Two, you must roll aD6 for each
unit being held in reserve - these are known as Reserve
Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or rnore, that unit arrives this turn.
It does not say it immediately arrives. However the FAQ does say that the roll for reserves and the use of psychic powers happens at the same time.
When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units
arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described
below. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on
until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then
proceed to move his other units as normal.
This paragraph says to deploy the models, "The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal".
Where does it say i can interrupt this and cast psychic powers before moving other models.
this wasn't used in the thread but another example of something happening in between an event 'x' and "when x happens"
If you look at the force weapon FAQ and read the page where it says when a model fails a saving throw it suffers a wound. FNP says "when a unsaved wound is suffered", and it seems like force weapons can interrupt that.
jegsar wrote: As far as psykers, reserves still are not on the board at the time the powers are used, only the roll is made before the use of psychic powers.
No - you roll for all units then move them on. Moving on is part of arriving from reserves.
But page 67 restricts it anyway.
That's not actually true. If you look at the rules it is really clear that you roll for all units in reserve and THEN you pick one unit arriving from reserve, move it on, etc. There is no indication that rolling for the reserves and moving the units on is one big action that must be resolved together. The only restriction listed is that you must finish moving on all your units arriving from reserve before you start moving any of your other units.
So the rules work absolutely fine if you roll to see what reserve units are arriving that turn, then resolve your start of turn psychic powers and then have your units arriving from reserve move on, one at a time.
When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal.
This indicates quite clearly that you make all the rolls first, then move the arriving units on in whatever order you choose.
The new FAQ ruling makes it clear that those units moving onto the board are arriving at the start of the turn, and thus since you can choose the order of things which happen at the start of your turn, you could have a unit arrive and then have a psyker who was already on the table cast a Blessing on it.
So the rules work absolutely fine if you roll to see what reserve units are arriving that turn, then resolve your start of turn psychic powers and then have your units arriving from reserve move on, one at a time.
For straight reserves it can work that way. But the FAQ also mentions rolling for Outflank, which clearly happens when the unit "arrives" from reserves. And "arriving" from reserves clearly includes moving onto the board.
And the question mentions reserves and Outflanking "etc."; which leaves us to wonder what other things they were including as being simultaneous.
edit: Mannahinn, Idon't think what you wrote actually agrees with what Yak wrote.
I think it does, although he described a different choice of order. Blessings and units moving on from Reserve both happen at the start of the turn, which is also the start of the movement phase. Page 67 does still prevent a unit which is arriving from Reserve this turn from itself casting a Blessing or Malediction, though.
Mannahnin wrote: I think it does, although he described a different choice of order. Blessings and units moving on from Reserve both happen at the start of the turn, which is also the start of the movement phase. Page 67 does still prevent a unit which is arriving from Reserve this turn from itself casting a Blessing or Malediction, though.
But the way I read his post, you make all the rolls for reserves, then do all the psy powers, then do all the arriving. Not allowing for any arriving before the psy powers.
But that does not address Outflank rolls.... (which your stance would allow for.)
When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal.
This indicates quite clearly that you make all the rolls first, then move the arriving units on in whatever order you choose.
The new FAQ ruling makes it clear that those units moving onto the board are arriving at the start of the turn, and thus since you can choose the order of things which happen at the start of your turn, you could have a unit arrive and then have a psyker who was already on the table cast a Blessing on it.
Heh, actually I was trying to argue that RAW when the units actually move on the table from Reserve this is no longer the 'start of the turn', as you make all the Reserve rolls as the start of turn action and THEN you pick one of the units arriving from reserve to move it on (so pretty much the opposite of what you said).
But I do agree with the concept that since the FAQ question includes the reference to rolling for Outflanking (which seems to happen when the unit actually arrives on the table), that the intent of the FAQ ruling is probably to allow a unit that moves onto the table to then benefit from a 'start of the turn' ability cast by another unit that was already on the table at the start of the turn.
However, I do think that this is a case where one reference in the FAQ seems to be slightly at odds with the way the rest of the question/answer was written and therefore ambiguity arises. To prevent this ambiguity the question in the FAQ really should have been written referencing 'units arriving from reserve' instead of just 'reserve rolls'.
I see what you're saying, but I think (as Janthkin did) that there's evidence even in just the rulebook text that units entering from reserve are doing so at the start of the turn/phase, so this could work. Enough so that I let an opponent at BFS in October do it. The FAQ ruling just lends more weight to that, IMO.
At the start of your Turn Two, you must roll a D6 for each unit being held in reserve - these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn.
Notice how it doesn't say then deploy the unit, just that it will arrive this turn. (never specifies timing)
To figure out the timing we look a little further down page 124 and see
When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal.
All we know is this happens before moving units but after the roll of when they come in.
Blessings/Maledictions
Blessings are manifested at the start of the Psyker's Movement phase.
at the same time as the roll, you can resolve this is either order, but the effects of the roll are not necessarily directly after the roll, just before 'normal' movement.
If this isn't good enough we can take a look at other things that happen at the same time as something else and see how they work but I am pretty confidant that you cannot cast blessings on a unit that arrived from reserves in the same turn, unless there is wording in the book somewhere that i missed.
side note: Reserves and outflank use the same wording
Spoiler:
Reserves
When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it
Outflank
when an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves
If you are talking about which side of the table they come on from, that happens after the reserves roll also. I would say either time that you cast a psychic power, you would be doing this before rolling to see which side they come on.
You have 2 options
Roll Reserves -> Use Powers -> Reserves arrive -> normal move (as directed by the arrival of reserves paragraph)
Use Powers -> Roll Reserves -> Reserves arrive -> normal move (as directed by the arrival of reserves paragraph)
You can not do this
Roll Reserves -> Reserves arrive -> use powers -> normal move
The roll is at the start of the turn but the arrival is after, that is why the timing of the start of arrival is it is left out, for other start of turn effects.
All it states is that you do the arrival move before your normal move and after the reserve roll.
I disagree. As you said, Blessings are cast at the start of the movement phase. Reserves enter the table in the movement phase, before any other units move. This could also reasonably be described as being at the start of the movement phase.
But after the reserve roll. the FAQ specifically says reserve roll.
No where does it say that the arrival of the reserves is directly after the reserve roll but it does say that the normal movement is directly after the arrival move.
Now i'm not arguing RAI or what i think would be cool, personally i think psykers should be able to cast blessings/maledictions on the turn they arrive and you should also be able to assault out of reserves but that isn't RAW.
Start of movement phase is the start, not sometime kinda around the start. If it's said, before the psyker moves then i would agree.
jegsar wrote: But after the reserve roll. the FAQ specifically says reserve roll.
No where does it say that the arrival of the reserves is directly after the reserve roll but it does say that the normal movement is directly after the arrival move.
Now i'm not arguing RAI or what i think would be cool, personally i think psykers should be able to cast blessings/maledictions on the turn they arrive and you should also be able to assault out of reserves but that isn't RAW.
Start of movement phase is the start, not sometime kinda around the start. If it's said, before the psyker moves then i would agree.
Agree with this, it is called a reserve roll (3 plus unit is eligible to come on), outflanking roll would be done after the reserve roll and psyhic powers always, outflanking roll is done at the same tme as deep strike scatter. All the FAQ is allowing us to do is do the psyhic powers before the reserve roll, the issue being with certain psyhic powers that influence the reserve rolls (GK one, Scriers gaze etc).
To say that any unit arriving from reserves cannot use rules or abilites that have to be used at the beginning of the turn proves that after the reserves come on, this is NOT the beginning of the turn.
Tomb King wrote:Also, rending on vehicles is no longer ap2. That is a pretty significant nerf to rending units.
Seems fine to me i play orks so i dont have this lol.
One of the bigger things i saw in the FAQ that appealed to me was:
Q: If a Flyer arrives via Deep Strike, can embarked passengers
disembark from it on the same turn it arrives? (p80-)
A: No.
Reason being, a local necron player likes to abuse the fact that he can spam air transports that can deepstrike. He has a tendancy to drop half of his army right behind you and provide coverfire with the transports themselves. He cant do this anymore. Drop pods arent THAT big of an issue for the fact that the pod itself isnt that much of a threat, necron fliers can wreck havoc on their own not to mention what they brought.
They can still drop at 36 inches for crons... not as good but still.
Side note you made sure he declared which were which during deployment and rolled them separably for reserve rolls right?
jegsar wrote: But after the reserve roll. the FAQ specifically says reserve roll.
No where does it say that the arrival of the reserves is directly after the reserve roll but it does say that the normal movement is directly after the arrival move.
Now i'm not arguing RAI or what i think would be cool, personally i think psykers should be able to cast blessings/maledictions on the turn they arrive and you should also be able to assault out of reserves but that isn't RAW.
Start of movement phase is the start, not sometime kinda around the start. If it's said, before the psyker moves then i would agree.
Rolling a 3+ means a unit arrives.
When a unit arrives it is moved on.
Not "at some indeterminate point after rolling for reserves" not "after the beginning of the turn" but when. There's no delay built in, you need permission to insert a delay.
So i am deep striking warp talons and termis. I make my reserve roll, both get 3+. Where is the sentence that says they come in right then? That is rai not raw, next i cast powers but lets say i have no psykers so we don't care. Then i select my warp talons to come in and don't scatter, they then get to try and blind the unit before i select my next unit, the terms. Notice how many actions and interruptions have taken place.
Pay power is after the ROLL for reserves as stated in the faq, read the other thread for more quotes and rules. Even Yak agrees.
Akar wrote: Still waiting, but this does kinda open the door for 'Entropic Strike' to still work regardless of the FnP result.
You can use that faq as a precedent. Both ES and Force happen "immediately" after an unsaved wound. So essentially their timing is the same.
I agree with your logic, however there is one major difference:
In the case of a Force Weapon vs. FNP, if the Force Weapon is activated first, the model is then nuked so the FNP result cannot possibly be enacted (as FNP cannot be taken against unsaved wounds that cause ID and at that point the unsaved wound now has ID).
In the case of Entropic Strike, even if you say that it is resolved before FNP, the effect of FNP then changes the unsaved wound into a saved result (thereby retroactively negating any thing else generated by it being an unsaved wound). Now, there is certainly all sorts of arguments to made either way on this matter (and they have been in the past), but I don't think that even using the precedent of resolving Entropic Strike before FNP necessarily gives a clear edict like it does with the Force Weapon.
Akar wrote: Still waiting, but this does kinda open the door for 'Entropic Strike' to still work regardless of the FnP result.
You can use that faq as a precedent. Both ES and Force happen "immediately" after an unsaved wound. So essentially their timing is the same.
I agree with your logic, however there is one major difference:
In the case of a Force Weapon vs. FNP, if the Force Weapon is activated first, the model is then nuked so the FNP result cannot possibly be enacted (as FNP cannot be taken against unsaved wounds that cause ID and at that point the unsaved wound now has ID).
In the case of Entropic Strike, even if you say that it is resolved before FNP, the effect of FNP then changes the unsaved wound into a saved result (thereby retroactively negating any thing else generated by it being an unsaved wound). Now, there is certainly all sorts of arguments to made either way on this matter (and they have been in the past), but I don't think that even using the precedent of resolving Entropic Strike before FNP necessarily gives a clear edict like it does with the Force Weapon.
[Just for academic purposes]
Why would the FNP negate the Entropic Strike effect? Is there anything in the game that lets you negate previous effect without explicitly saying so in its rules?
I can see the wound being returned by the FNP roll but the effects of Entropic Strike should still be in place.
jegsar wrote: But after the reserve roll. the FAQ specifically says reserve roll.
The FAQ *also* specifically says "outflanking roll" is in the same time frame (beginning of movement phase) as the Psy Powers and Reserve rolls.)
The issue is not which happens first,the issue is what is everything that happens in the nebulous "beginning of Movement phase"
According to the FAQ, Outflanking rolls (and thus arriving from reserves) is still within the 'beginning of Movement phase"
No where does it say that the arrival of the reserves is directly after the reserve roll but it does say that the normal movement is directly after the arrival move.
It doesn't have to say that, as long as everything that is happening is part of the 'beginning of Movement phase"
Start of movement phase is the start, not sometime kinda around the start. If it's said, before the psyker moves then i would agree.
Now you are creating rules.... the FAQ has defined *at least* three things as happening in the 'beginning of the Movement phase"
Reserve Rolls, Outflanking rolls (which only happens upon arriving from reserves, and includes actually moving onto the board), and casting Blessings. The FAQ also states that there are other things ("etc.") also occuring 'simultaneously'.
On the more general topic of the new FAQs, here's the email I just sent to gamefaqs@gwplc.com .
I encourage everyone who has further questions (especially items for the codices whose FAQs haven't been updated yet, like IG), so send them in as well.
Hello!
I have a few questions and concerns regarding several of the codices. I was very happy to see the FAQs get updated this week, but there are a few outstanding questions I still have (including about IG, which didn't get updated yet), and I think one or two errors have crept in which I was hoping to flag for you.
Main rulebook questions: Can you move over/through friendly models' bases or hulls? Multiple later parts of the rules, such as the assault rules on page 30, say "remember that you cannot move over friendly models' bases", but there's no statement to that effect in the main movement rules.
Can invulnerable saves be taken by vehicles against glances and pens like cover saves can? This one seems obvious, but there's no explicit statement in the rules saying so, like there is with cover saves.
If a swarm unit suffers a wound from a Blast which has sufficient strength to inflict Instant Death, does this kill two bases, or just one?
Walkers- Do they draw LOS from their weapons like other vehicles? As in, pick a target in firing arc of at least one weapon and THEN "pivot to face the target" and fire at it? Or can they actually pick a target behind them to which they have no LOS, then pivot to face it and fire? I remember the old Chaos Codex FAQ said that chaos dreadnoughts when frenzying could only pick a target within their front arc; that they couldn't target something behind them, so would not spin completely around. But obvously that FAQ is gone now, since the new codex came out.
Allies: What counts as being "your army"? Do allies count? For example, can a Grey Knight Grand Master's Grand Strategy be used to give Unyielding Anvil to an allied unit of Death Company, thus making them a scoring unit? And can Mad Dok Grotsniks be used to grant allied units a 5+ invulnerable save? Both of these say they can be used on any unit in your army; they are not limited to friendly units (so Allies of Convenience and Desperate Allies wouldn't be ruled out), and they haven't been errata'd or amended to say "units from Codex: GK or codex: Orks", respectively. I'd like to see a general ruling about these kind of "any unit in your army" abilities and whether they apply to allies.
Codex: Space Marines Do Drop Pods lose a hull point on landing? The FAQ says they are treated as suffering an immobilized damage result. The main rulebook FAQ says that vehicles which Immobilize themselves moving through dangerous terrain count as suffering an immobilized damage result, and notes that this includes the loss of a hull point. So it would seem like Drop Pods would follow the same logic, but I'm not sure.
Codex: Imperial Guard The current ruling on the Valkyrie/Vendetta and Scout appears to be an error. It says that their Scout rule does nothing, which makes sense for the main part of the Scout USR, that is, the after-deployment redeploy, since these vehicles have to start in Reserve, being flyers. However the Scout rule is also what gives them the ability to Outflank. By saying that their Scout rule does nothing, the FAQ currently means they can't Outflank either. Is that the intent? I would think that the proper fix would have been to just replace the Scout rule for these units with the Outflank rule.
Codex: Necrons Can Imotekh's lightning hit flyers on a 6, like it hits other units?
Is being "removed from play" (like by Jaws of the World Wolf) the same as being removed as a casualty, for purposes of Ressurection Protocols/Everling? The ruling for Saint Celestine in the Sisters FAQ seems to equate them, but I keep seeing people argue that Removed From Play is categorically different from being Removed As a Casualty. Some folks are even arguing that "removed from play" doesn't qualify for First Blood, as First Blood triggers on removing a unit as a casualty!
Codex: Tau Empire The new FAQ says that Seeker Missiles still need a 6 to hit a Zooming Flyer, despite the fact that the Marker Light needed a 6 to hit it just for the Seeker Missile to even be able to fire. This means that Seeker Missiles are literally the least-able to hit a flyer vehicle in the game, needing two 6s to hit. Which makes the Skyray being the Tau's anti-aircraft tank a sick joke. This can't be right, surely? That tank is bad enough as it is.
Codex: Eldar The new FAQ rules that a psyker in a transport cannot cast any kind of psychic powers. This seems crazy. The main rulebook psychic rules state that being in a transport restricts your line of sight, and that therefore psykers in transports are only able to target powers which require LOS on themeselves, another unit in the transport, or the transport itself. Even if you're changing the rules for Doom, Fortune, and Guide to require LOS now, they should still be able to target the psyker, his unit, or the transport. Why on Earth is this ruling saying that they can't be cast at all?
Codex: Dark Angels This one may be a bit optimistic, but it seems very strange to me that the Nephilim flyer was errata'd to lose Missile Lock, rather than errata'd for Blacksword Missiles to be Blast weapons. The missiles, being only S6 AP4, seem like they're clearly meant to be useful anti-infantry weapons. Compare them to the Blood Strike missiles on a Blood Angel Storm Raven. Those are S8 AP1, on a vehicle which is only 20pts more, is a 12 model capacity Assault Transport, has better armor and ceremite plating. With Blast on the missiles and Missile Lock, the Nephilim seems like a decent shooty flyer. Still probably not as good as a Storm Raven, but certainly playable. If they're not blast, it's just a terrible unit.
Mannahnin wrote: A bunch of things DID get fixed and clarified in this round of FAQs.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I love the work they are doing on FAQs and think they are definitely a good thing. I just don't know how much of that is intentional or how much comes from the FAQ e-mail box or how much is infinite monkeys typing on keyboards.
Do you think that someone has really been flooding the box asking for an answer to 'If the character makes my elites troops and he dies do they get reclassified?'
pretre wrote: I always hold out hope that someone reads that e-mail box.
I always assumed I would get a return email:
"Thank you for contacting Games Workshop! We appreciate your comments! We are concerned about your questions, so please be aware that this inbox is not monitered and that all emails will be forwarded directly to the recycle bin! Thanks and happy gaming!"
[Just for academic purposes]
Why would the FNP negate the Entropic Strike effect? Is there anything in the game that lets you negate previous effect without explicitly saying so in its rules?
I can see the wound being returned by the FNP roll but the effects of Entropic Strike should still be in place.
There are THREADS on this debate, and don't need to be reposted here. The SHORT of it is that while FnP is NOT a save it treats the wound as being saved. You then have a situation where you have an unsaved effect still attempting to be triggered off a saved wound. This is something that the majority of players feel is the case, and I strongly feel it was the core of why weapons that might cause ID didn't override FnP in the first place. Regardless of how I feel on the subject, the issue wasn't the timing, it was the 'override' effect of the last line under FnP. The FAQ about ID weapons ends that debate, but we all know players that need FAQ's for every individual rule, so to many players, ES is still on the fence.
I think that covers anything that's relevant, and I don't want to re-start that debate here. The Horse has been flogged, killed, sent to the glue factory, then distributed and recalled for being defective at this point, even with this FAQ opening the door. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss it further. For now I just always ask my opp. if it's okay that I play ES>FnP like a responsible player. When Im a TO, then I unfortunately have to rule against how I prefer to play it because the generally accepted method still hasn't been individually changed.
jegsar wrote: So i am deep striking warp talons and termis. I make my reserve roll, both get 3+. Where is the sentence that says they come in right then? That is rai not raw, next i cast powers but lets say i have no psykers so we don't care. Then i select my warp talons to come in and don't scatter, they then get to try and blind the unit before i select my next unit, the terms. Notice how many actions and interruptions have taken place.
Pay power is after the ROLL for reserves as stated in the faq, read the other thread for more quotes and rules. Even Yak agrees.
Yak agreeing doesn't mean anything more than anyone else agreeing (no offense intended yakface).
When X happens, do Y. X happened, why are you not doing Y?
Rigeld, till we solve this lets just sort this out on one of the two threads? Lets do the other one since that is where I have actually been quoting rules.
Neorealist wrote: My theory is they have someone who lurks on forums much like this one to pick up on items that are brought up and recieve a lot of attention.
It certainly seems that way, maybe they cut a whole department and replaced it with Dakka
I wonder if they realize that Dakka would do their faqs for them on 99% of issues without needing to make a call. Now erratas are actual changes so someone needs to decide but still.
jegsar wrote: I wonder if they realize that Dakka would do their faqs for them on 99% of issues without needing to make a call. Now erratas are actual changes so someone needs to decide but still.
No because if Dakka did the FAQ's they'd go round in circles.
On some stuff, other then like eldar psychic powers we would just word it the right way so it works the same as blessings.
Either that or have GW tell us what they want the change to be and let us do the wording.
jegsar wrote: I wonder if they realize that Dakka would do their faqs for them on 99% of issues without needing to make a call. Now erratas are actual changes so someone needs to decide but still.
No because if Dakka did the FAQ's they'd go round in circles.
It isn't like Dakka hasn't done FAQs before, both the Gwar FAQ and the INAT. It also isn't like GW hasn't borrowed wholesale from those FAQs both with and without acknowledgement.
pretre wrote: It also isn't like GW hasn't borrowed wholesale from those FAQs both with and without acknowledgement.
As I recall, in both those situations part of our community made sure it was a 'bad idea' and probably won't happen again (or at least not too soon).
jegsar wrote: On some stuff, other then like eldar psychic powers we would just word it the right way so it works the same as blessings.
Either that or have GW tell us what they want the change to be and let us do the wording.
Or alternatively made the power with half range, not working in CC have some benefit over the similar power, when used by race who is supposed to be master at it. But that would be a dumb idea, let's make it plain worse.
Wow, I'm kinda negative lately.. Guess I have to take a kitten bath or something..
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